FabSwingers.com forum: Do we need america?

By *hagTonight OP Man
7 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.

After winning the german election, did you hear what friedrich merz said? He said that “I would never have thought that I would have to say something like this in a tv show but, after donald trumps remarks last week... it is clear that this government does not care much about the fate of europe, merz added that "this is really now the change of an era".

What is your view about it that europe should go alone without them?

I totally agree that the way trump is now, it is time to cut the band from america too

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By *anifestoMan
7 weeks ago

I don't think a united states of Europe is a bad idea, and happy that trump is doing all he can to project this

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By *eoBloomsMan
7 weeks ago

Springfield

Yes, because Europe can't currently defend itself. Merz's comments rather ironic given Germany's awful record on defence spending.

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan
7 weeks ago

Hastings

"I don't think a united states of Europe is a bad idea, and happy that trump is doing all he can to project this"

Europ needs to get closer or further apart it is not going to work when you get 1 county blocking change.

Like Hungary blocking more support for Ukraine from the EU.

If it was a United States of Europe Run as one block but I fear this will never happen.

Most EU countries only spend 1.5% of GDP on defence so as the UK going from 2.3 to 2.5 we are doing OK.

But others need to be doing more if we are all going to get away from a US reliance.

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By *otMe66Man
7 weeks ago

Terra Firma

The UK, like most of Europe, has become overly reliant on others for essentials, goods, food, and security! We wouldn’t last long without external support.

Europe has outsourced its defence to the US for years, a lot of the time driven by the US wanting a foothold. That has led to a complacency and a failing to develop leadership outside the EU which is a trade bloc. Left unchecked the EU has been allowed to muddy the waters with interference beyond trade.

It’s time for Europe to grow up take responsibility, and stop allowing bad actors to dictate the outcomes, out of fear of repercussions.

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By *uffleskloofMan
7 weeks ago

Walsall

We already have a United States of Europe. It’s called the EU. And it’s totally ineffectual.

The problem is that the EU countries love to swan in to a conference in a private jet, do some high minded pontificating, have a nice lunch and get their group photo taken.

But then they jet back to their own countries and carry on pursuing their own interests.

As we have seen from last weeks Security Conference. Starmer’s “Coalition of the Willing” basically consists of the UK and France (maybe). Nobody is going to go to war reliant on the French for backup.

Otherwise the EU wont lift a finger.

It’s not surprising that the US has had enough of them.

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By *hrill CollinsMan
7 weeks ago

The Outer Rim

"I don't think a united states of Europe is a bad idea, and happy that trump is doing all he can to project this

Europ needs to get closer or further apart it is not going to work when you get 1 county blocking change.

Like Hungary blocking more support for Ukraine from the EU.

If it was a United States of Europe Run as one block but I fear this will never happen.

Most EU countries only spend 1.5% of GDP on defence so as the UK going from 2.3 to 2.5 we are doing OK.

But others need to be doing more if we are all going to get away from a US reliance. "

everyone will obviously be happy with a new 2.5% military tax on everyones income, transactions and capital gains in order to fund it then

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By *eoBloomsMan
7 weeks ago

Springfield

"The UK, like most of Europe, has become overly reliant on others for essentials, goods, food, and security! We wouldn’t last long without external support.

It’s time for Europe to grow up take responsibility, and stop allowing bad actors to dictate the outcomes, out of fear of repercussions."

The European model is fundamentally broken.

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By *idnight RamblerMan
7 weeks ago

Pershore

I agree we are probably witnessing the end of an era - one led by the West generally and US specifically. It looks like NATO will weaken, and we have to seek other defence ties. The problem with Europe is it's preponderance of small countries who want to duck defence responsibilities (Ireland, Austria not even in NATO). Then others who are historically close to Russia in a Slavic brotherhood. Finally, do our national interests ever align with France? Seldom at best.

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By *otMe66Man
7 weeks ago

Terra Firma

"I agree we are probably witnessing the end of an era - one led by the West generally and US specifically. It looks like NATO will weaken, and we have to seek other defence ties. The problem with Europe is it's preponderance of small countries who want to duck defence responsibilities (Ireland, Austria not even in NATO). Then others who are historically close to Russia in a Slavic brotherhood. Finally, do our national interests ever align with France? Seldom at best. "

We have more in common with France than not.

As for the countries bordering Russia, it should be time to test their loyalties. If Europe not the EU draws, a clear line in the sand, they have a choice, commit to a European alliance or be left out.

Any country choosing to remain or go outside would likely find itself under Russian control before the ink has dried on the page. The borders might shift, but it will be stronger and more secure.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
7 weeks ago

Central

It's good sometimes to be forced to reassess what you're doing and to change course. Whether people in the UK are ready and willing, is another issue. Similarly with parts of Europe.

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan
7 weeks ago

Hastings

"We already have a United States of Europe. It’s called the EU. And it’s totally ineffectual.

The problem is that the EU countries love to swan in to a conference in a private jet, do some high minded pontificating, have a nice lunch and get their group photo taken.

But then they jet back to their own countries and carry on pursuing their own interests.

Otherwise the EU wont lift a finger.

It’s not surprising that the US has had enough of them."

We do have a United Europe but its not that united when one country can stop something. Can you imagine if the US had each state vote on things then it might be more like Europe slow and over political at best.

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By (user no longer on site)
7 weeks ago

For years people have hoped that America would stop interfering outside their borders and trying to police the world

Now we're complaining because they're beginning to withdraw

We should not need to rely on the yanks

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By *coptoCouple
7 weeks ago

Côte d'Azur & Great Yarmouth

“Do our national interests ever align with France? Seldom at best”

They most definitely DO, especially when in Europe there’s a threat from Russia, and from China a threat to their interests/our Commonwealth.

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By *abioMan
7 weeks ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

See for me what this administration is doing is way worse than appeasement… it’s alignment!

Every decision makes me wince more and more…. Okay, suspending military spending is one thing, but now not sharing military intelligence.. that’s another level!

I know we joke normally when we ask “what side are they on?” … now, I think we have to seriously consider

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan
7 weeks ago

Hastings

"See for me what this administration is doing is way worse than appeasement… it’s alignment!

Every decision makes me wince more and more…. Okay, suspending military spending is one thing, but now not sharing military intelligence.. that’s another level!

I know we joke normally when we ask “what side are they on?” … now, I think we have to seriously consider "

I have never joked about what side they are on. To me it's crystal clear the USA under trump only has the USA at the center of the process. Trump said America first and that is what he ment. But he needs to reduce there Debt and a mineral deal will help with that.

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By *eoBloomsMan
7 weeks ago

Springfield

"For years people have hoped that America would stop interfering outside their borders and trying to police the world

Now we're complaining because they're beginning to withdraw

We should not need to rely on the yanks

The Europeans (French and Germans in particular) have bitched about the US non stop since 1945 ! No good deed goes unpublished I guess.

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By *illedbydeathCouple
7 weeks ago

dorset

Love Trump..

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By (user no longer on site)
7 weeks ago

I think it's time to defend ourselves without relying on the USA.

If article 5 was invoked by a NATO country , what's the odds that the USA or other countries would bottle it?!

Also seeing how trump has treated Ukraine, we all could be up for the same treatment (forced into a deal to be made with usa or they won't help you)

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By *entleman_spyMan
7 weeks ago

nearby

They have a big military and a lot of money, but they have never actually won a war on their own, in fact they have not won a single actual war since ww2

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By *abioMan
7 weeks ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"I think it's time to defend ourselves without relying on the USA.

If article 5 was invoked by a NATO country , what's the odds that the USA or other countries would bottle it?!

Also seeing how trump has treated Ukraine, we all could be up for the same treatment (forced into a deal to be made with usa or they won't help you)"

I would honestly not have any doubts any country would not adhere to article 5 other than the United States…

If I was a Baltic state… I’d be worried

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By *coptoCouple
7 weeks ago

Côte d'Azur & Great Yarmouth

"If I was a Baltic state… I’d be worried"

There are a lot more EU and UK troops in the Baltic states* than one might think. Would it deter Russia from invading them? We can only hope so...

*the Council rules had to be changed otherwise, alphabetically, there could have been a troika - the current Presidency together with the previous and the next to maintain continuity - of Latvia, Lithuania and Luxembourg. NOT ideal!

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By *ermbiMan
7 weeks ago

Ballyshannon

'Duck' defence spending is a sweeping statement. Ireland has a proud history of neutrality and a proud history of peace keeping operations with the UN

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By *otMe66Man
7 weeks ago

Terra Firma

"I think it's time to defend ourselves without relying on the USA.

If article 5 was invoked by a NATO country , what's the odds that the USA or other countries would bottle it?!

Also seeing how trump has treated Ukraine, we all could be up for the same treatment (forced into a deal to be made with usa or they won't help you)

I would honestly not have any doubts any country would not adhere to article 5 other than the United States…

If I was a Baltic state… I’d be worried "

I'm wondering why you are so anti US and why you are rallying worry around further Russian advances that simply would not happen due to the Baltic states being part of NATO. The only explanation I can can assume is that you believe NATO is so weak along with Europe that it offers zero deterrent which would go some way to agreeing with Trump, or non of what you are saying would make sense. I give you credit for being well informed, hence the question.

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By *ellhungvweMan
7 weeks ago

Cheltenham

Sovereign countries needs to be able to defend themselves else they are not sovereign. Europe, as a continent, has abdicated that sovereign responsibility. It is now finding that if you lose the friendship of the local bully then life starts to get harder.

1. I think sovereign countries need to relearn the importance of self defence.

2. I don’t think the EU is the right construct to organise a defensive capability around - that needs to be done in bilateral relationships between countries because trying to get a rapid military response by a committtee of 27+ countries with radically different political views will never work.

3. NATO is probably dead. The very fact that there is doubt about the fact that the US will respond to a threat makes the concept moot.

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By *ellhungvweMan
7 weeks ago

Cheltenham

'Duck' defence spending is a sweeping statement. Ireland has a proud history of neutrality and a proud history of peace keeping operations with the UN"

At the risk of inflaming centuries of tension - Ireland realistically only has the luxury of neutrality because it knows that if it were attacked then the UK would have to come to its aid. The UK wouldn’t do that from the goodness of its heart - simply because an enemy force with a foot hold in Ireland would pose a serious threat to the UK and that could not be tolerated. A sustained attack on the island of Ireland is effectively an attack on the UK from the view of the UK.

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By *0shadesOfFilthMan
7 weeks ago

nearby

Starmer and co are reportedly preparing the peace plan that will be sent to USA within days.

Are we relying on Trump to sell it to Russia, and then to accept it, in the face of USA support and intelligence withdrawn. More likely is a big push from Russia?

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