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"Growth has dropped since Brexit and will continue to do so until some sort of d'accord is agreed to trade with the EU. But, the British people voted for those sunny uplands yet blame everything and everyone else for the outcome." ‘UK suffered the highest inflation and lowest growth in the G7 in the last two years. The UK suffered the highest inflation and lowest economic growth of any G7 country since the end of 2021 (when interest rates began to be raised) according to new TUC analysis published today.’ TUC. 17 May 2024 Followed by two negative months since Labour took office | |||
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"STAGFLATION https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation That economic demon whose name dare not be whispered within the City walls." Yes. No growth means no more revenue, means more taxes to fund public services, means less growth, and so on...  | |||
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"We all knew this was where we were heading, well most of us..." It's a shame the media didn't ask a few more questions about Labour's economic plans before the election. Unfortunately they were obsessed with getting rid of the evil Tories and didn't think it was necessary. | |||
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"Growth has dropped since Brexit and will continue to do so until some sort of d'accord is agreed to trade with the EU. But, the British people voted for those sunny uplands yet blame everything and everyone else for the outcome." How’s economic growth in the EU been going since 2016? Or 2008 in fact? Or is their stagnation all Brexit’s fault too? | |||
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"Growth has dropped since Brexit and will continue to do so until some sort of d'accord is agreed to trade with the EU. But, the British people voted for those sunny uplands yet blame everything and everyone else for the outcome. How’s economic growth in the EU been going since 2016? Or 2008 in fact? Or is their stagnation all Brexit’s fault too?" You can't compare the UK with the EU as the EU is a trading block. The comparison is with other countries and normally the G7 countries When the UK was part of the EU, nobody looked at the UK as part of the block when looking at growth but looked at the UK as a sovereign country as are France, Germany etc | |||
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"How many BILLIONS has been wasted on HS2? Can't blame labour for that white elephant." HS2 was first proposed by the Labour government in 2009 under Gordon Brown, and HS2 Ltd was established to explore the possibility of a high-speed rail line connecting London and more northern parts of the country. | |||
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"How many BILLIONS has been wasted on HS2? Can't blame labour for that white elephant." They've mostly been wasted because so much of it has to go through tunnels. Fault is our planning system, not Lab or Cons Govt. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy " Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories" Brexit, COVID, and Tory economic mismanagement? Absolutely not! The economy was growing under the Conservatives, but since Labour took control, they’ve created an atmosphere of doom and gloom, exaggerating an imaginary £22 billion blackhole. They’ve then doubled the debt to fund public sector pay hikes and train driver deals without meaningful negotiation, whilst harming the most vulnerable and working people. By borrowing less than needed, they’ve handed investors a golden ticket to manipulate gilt yields, paving the way for further tax rises and borrowing. This mismanagement will likely lead to both increased taxes and borrowing before their term ends. As someone recently said to me, Labour’s awful management of the economy may have gifted the Conservatives another 10 years at the next general election. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? " The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. | |||
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"We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy. How much damage in such a short amount of time! " Plenty of damage done by SKS and co talking the economy down from taking office up to the budget is the main reason for the downtown according to the reports I have read. The budget will further compound the problems according to businesses who plan to hire less and increase prices. Hopefully it will not be as bad as they say. However Labour pledge is to have the highest consistent growth in the G7 by the end of their first term which is looking unlikely. | |||
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"We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy. How much damage in such a short amount of time! Plenty of damage done by SKS and co talking the economy down from taking office up to the budget is the main reason for the downtown according to the reports I have read. The budget will further compound the problems according to businesses who plan to hire less and increase prices. Hopefully it will not be as bad as they say. However Labour pledge is to have the highest consistent growth in the G7 by the end of their first term which is looking unlikely. " Labour’s pledge to achieve the highest consistent growth in the G7 was a glaring red flag for their lack of economic competence. It’s absurd to suggest they could control or even influence the strategies and growth of other economies. Such promises reveals either a lack of understanding of global economics, or they set out to fool the people from the start, which raises serious doubts about their ability to deliver the domestic policies they set out to do. | |||
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" Labour’s pledge to achieve the highest consistent growth in the G7 was a glaring red flag for their lack of economic competence. Such promises reveals either a lack of understanding of global economics, or they set out to fool the people from the start, which raises serious doubts about their ability to deliver the domestic policies they set out to do." All three of those. Starmer endorsing the chancellor with fake CV, three months of talking the economy down. Scaremongering pre budget leaks putting off investment. An inept housing minister and deputy prime minister, less qualified than a second year apprentice on a construction site. | |||
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"How many BILLIONS has been wasted on HS2? Can't blame labour for that white elephant. HS2 was first proposed by the Labour government in 2009 under Gordon Brown, and HS2 Ltd was established to explore the possibility of a high-speed rail line connecting London and more northern parts of the country." yes leeds lmao just forget about the north east altogether great plan lol | |||
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"‘I can understand frustration’ about Labour’s first six months’ Lucy Powell, the Commons leader, said she shared public impatience for change and was “disappointed” over the state of the economy but the party’s inheritance meant it was “a bit like turning around a huge oil tanker” No Powell, labour turned it back it was doing fine " Not only was it going in the right direction faster than most G7 countries, but she has managed to turn this theoretical oil tanker onto a collision course with an iceberg | |||
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"‘I can understand frustration’ about Labour’s first six months’ Lucy Powell, the Commons leader, said she shared public impatience for change and was “disappointed” over the state of the economy but the party’s inheritance meant it was “a bit like turning around a huge oil tanker” No Powell, labour turned it back it was doing fine " If everything was going fine, why did Sunak call an early election ? | |||
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"‘I can understand frustration’ about Labour’s first six months’ Lucy Powell, the Commons leader, said she shared public impatience for change and was “disappointed” over the state of the economy but the party’s inheritance meant it was “a bit like turning around a huge oil tanker” No Powell, labour turned it back it was doing fine If everything was going fine, why did Sunak call an early election ?" He had to call a GE by 17 December 2024 | |||
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"‘I can understand frustration’ about Labour’s first six months’ Lucy Powell, the Commons leader, said she shared public impatience for change and was “disappointed” over the state of the economy but the party’s inheritance meant it was “a bit like turning around a huge oil tanker” No Powell, labour turned it back it was doing fine If everything was going fine, why did Sunak call an early election ? He had to call a GE by 17 December 2024" So he went early. | |||
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"‘I can understand frustration’ about Labour’s first six months’ Lucy Powell, the Commons leader, said she shared public impatience for change and was “disappointed” over the state of the economy but the party’s inheritance meant it was “a bit like turning around a huge oil tanker” No Powell, labour turned it back it was doing fine If everything was going fine, why did Sunak call an early election ? He had to call a GE by 17 December 2024 So he went early." And was criticised for doing so, in the face of the improved economic and falling inflation figures at that time. ‘The Office for National Statistics published new CPI data showing inflation in April was 2.3 percent, down from 3.2 percent in March and down from a whopping 11.1 percent high when Sunak first entered office. It's tantalizingly close to the Bank of England's crucial 2 percent target.’ | |||
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"Growth has dropped since Brexit and will continue to do so until some sort of d'accord is agreed to trade with the EU. But, the British people voted for those sunny uplands yet blame everything and everyone else for the outcome." You clearly haven't read the statements from Honda ("Brexit hasn't turned out to be as bad as we thought") and Nissan ("we've learned to live with Brexit") this week. | |||
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"Growth has dropped since Brexit ..." Growth after Brexit is broadly the same as it was before. The UK economy has grown in 13 of the subsequent 18 quarters. "and will continue to do so until some sort of d'accord is agreed to trade with the EU." We had a trade agreement before we left. It's still in force. | |||
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"‘I can understand frustration’ about Labour’s first six months’ Lucy Powell, the Commons leader, said she shared public impatience for change and was “disappointed” over the state of the economy but the party’s inheritance meant it was “a bit like turning around a huge oil tanker” No Powell, labour turned it back it was doing fine If everything was going fine, why did Sunak call an early election ? He had to call a GE by 17 December 2024 So he went early. And was criticised for doing so, in the face of the improved economic and falling inflation figures at that time. ‘The Office for National Statistics published new CPI data showing inflation in April was 2.3 percent, down from 3.2 percent in March and down from a whopping 11.1 percent high when Sunak first entered office. It's tantalizingly close to the Bank of England's crucial 2 percent target.’" Hunt was baffled by Sunak's early call, he lost them a couple of seats at least. But lets be honest a few seats wasn't going to make a lot of difference.. | |||
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"Should they have ignored their manifest pledges, for example, and raised taxes in a different way? " Are you talking about labour? If so they did just that  | |||
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"Not from the UK but lived there for a few years years ago. I think the biggest draw on public expenses is welfare 250 billion a year. If you want to improve the economy of the UK you start there. Get more people back to work and only give to those that are actually unable to work. I'm sure there's lots of things that need to be done potholes, graffiti removal, social housing in need of a lock of paint etc. that people who are dossers could be doing for their welfare. " Dead right.The original idea of the welfare state was to get injured and ill workers,back to work.Jow state dependency has long been an option,for many. | |||
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"‘I can understand frustration’ about Labour’s first six months’ Lucy Powell, the Commons leader, said she shared public impatience for change and was “disappointed” over the state of the economy but the party’s inheritance meant it was “a bit like turning around a huge oil tanker” No Powell, labour turned it back it was doing fine If everything was going fine, why did Sunak call an early election ?" Cos he knew the Rwanda flight was going to take off  | |||
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"Growth has dropped since Brexit and will continue to do so until some sort of d'accord is agreed to trade with the EU. But, the British people voted for those sunny uplands yet blame everything and everyone else for the outcome. ‘UK suffered the highest inflation and lowest growth in the G7 in the last two years. The UK suffered the highest inflation and lowest economic growth of any G7 country since the end of 2021 (when interest rates began to be raised) according to new TUC analysis published today.’ TUC. 17 May 2024 Followed by two negative months since Labour took office " In the last two years or since 2021... and this is before labour came into power. So what are you trying to say? | |||
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"Grim outlook on the guardian today: 25% increase in retailers on brink of collapse 2/3rds private renters (about 3 million) can’t afford their rent Christmas retail footfall down 11.4% Recession coming What are Labour going to do. " Put up more taxes. | |||
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"This due to there incompetence there nearly as bad as Liz truss " Truss’s disastrous mistakes were swiftly acting on by BoE purchasing government bonds, although the higher interest costs on mortgages still remains. Labours doom and gloom message seems to have taken a grip on the economy. | |||
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"Grim outlook on the guardian today: 25% increase in retailers on brink of collapse 2/3rds private renters (about 3 million) can’t afford their rent Christmas retail footfall down 11.4% Recession coming What are Labour going to do. " Probably just stick to plan A. We the uk are about to see a car crash again. This time I did not see the boom so guess its just bust. | |||
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"Grim outlook on the guardian today: 25% increase in retailers on brink of collapse 2/3rds private renters (about 3 million) can’t afford their rent Christmas retail footfall down 11.4% Recession coming What are Labour going to do. Probably just stick to plan A. We the uk are about to see a car crash again. This time I did not see the boom so guess its just bust. " Serious base rate cuts are the only tool in the box Possibly too late. | |||
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"Grim outlook on the guardian today: 25% increase in retailers on brink of collapse 2/3rds private renters (about 3 million) can’t afford their rent Christmas retail footfall down 11.4% Recession coming What are Labour going to do. " I’m so disappointed with Labour! Regardless of my voting preference, I want our sitting government to succeed, but unfortunately the working people they promised to look after are in the firing line. | |||
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"Grim outlook on the guardian today: 25% increase in retailers on brink of collapse 2/3rds private renters (about 3 million) can’t afford their rent Christmas retail footfall down 11.4% Recession coming What are Labour going to do. Probably just stick to plan A. We the uk are about to see a car crash again. This time I did not see the boom so guess its just bust. Serious base rate cuts are the only tool in the box Possibly too late. " There will be no significant base rate cuts. 10 year gilts have hit a new high today and will continue to climb imo. The interest rate situation and mortgage outlook is far worse now than when Truss was pm. | |||
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"Grim outlook on the guardian today: 25% increase in retailers on brink of collapse 2/3rds private renters (about 3 million) can’t afford their rent Christmas retail footfall down 11.4% Recession coming What are Labour going to do. Probably just stick to plan A. We the uk are about to see a car crash again. This time I did not see the boom so guess its just bust. Serious base rate cuts are the only tool in the box Possibly too late. There will be no significant base rate cuts. 10 year gilts have hit a new high today and will continue to climb imo. The interest rate situation and mortgage outlook is far worse now than when Truss was pm." The gilt yield started climbing as soon as it became clear after the budget that Reeves hadn’t borrowed or taxed enough to deliver on the roadmap, despite the pledge of no more tax hikes. The result has been strikingly similar to Truss, but with potentially longer lasting effects, ones I’m genuinely not looking forward to. | |||
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"Grim outlook on the guardian today: 25% increase in retailers on brink of collapse 2/3rds private renters (about 3 million) can’t afford their rent Christmas retail footfall down 11.4% Recession coming What are Labour going to do. Probably just stick to plan A. We the uk are about to see a car crash again. This time I did not see the boom so guess its just bust. Serious base rate cuts are the only tool in the box Possibly too late. There will be no significant base rate cuts. 10 year gilts have hit a new high today and will continue to climb imo. The interest rate situation and mortgage outlook is far worse now than when Truss was pm. The gilt yield started climbing as soon as it became clear after the budget that Reeves hadn’t borrowed or taxed enough to deliver on the roadmap, despite the pledge of no more tax hikes. The result has been strikingly similar to Truss, but with potentially longer lasting effects, ones I’m genuinely not looking forward to." The 'Truss Effect' was largely caused by factors outside her control. The BoE reversing quantative easing the day before the budget for example. There is an informative article in the Wall Street Journal on the subject which puts into context the narrative peddled by the uk media. | |||
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" If you're not already financially secure I would advise people to either get a safe public sector job or look for alternatives abroad." | |||
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"But be prepared to tie yourself up in paperwork and administration for 18 months. If only there was some kind of "freedom of movement" that could make this a lot faster and less bureaucratic eh? If you're not already financially secure I would advise people to either get a safe public sector job or look for alternatives abroad." You are of the opinion that we need more inward migration? Or that the economic prospects within the EU are superior? | |||
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"Grim outlook on the guardian today: 25% increase in retailers on brink of collapse 2/3rds private renters (about 3 million) can’t afford their rent Christmas retail footfall down 11.4% Recession coming What are Labour going to do. Probably just stick to plan A. We the uk are about to see a car crash again. This time I did not see the boom so guess its just bust. Serious base rate cuts are the only tool in the box Possibly too late. There will be no significant base rate cuts. 10 year gilts have hit a new high today and will continue to climb imo. The interest rate situation and mortgage outlook is far worse now than when Truss was pm." If no cutting of rates then the economic damage will continue. Rayner has no chance of building these 1.5 million homes with rates where they are. | |||
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"The UK is now locking into a spiral of de-growth and deindustrialision that will leave most people poorer, some of them much poorer. I don't see that either main parties has the will or the policies to tackle this, and even if they did could they enforce them on a resistant blob ? If you're not already financially secure I would advise people to either get a safe public sector job or look for alternatives abroad." It’s a race to the bottom, Reeves in the driving seat | |||
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"Just saying that any UK citizen that decides that the UK is a complete basket case and wants to leave then they should spend the guys of 18 months in paperwork before even buying a ticket, and that a few years ago there was an option for relocation in the EU, but that door is now closed. South sudan has a rapidly growing economy but would I want to move there? No. Would I like to move to Spain? Yes. Unfortunately I need visas and permits wherever I want to go for longer than three months now though " Freedom of movement has not ended, 20,000 in small boats since July, free food, hotel and nhs. | |||
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"But be prepared to tie yourself up in paperwork and administration for 18 months. If only there was some kind of "freedom of movement" that could make this a lot faster and less bureaucratic eh? If you're not already financially secure I would advise people to either get a safe public sector job or look for alternatives abroad. You are of the opinion that we need more inward migration? Or that the economic prospects within the EU are superior?" I would be open minded about emigrating and certainly not stick to the EU. Obviously this is difficult if you don't have the desired skills and qualifications but if you do then there are good opportunities out there. | |||
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"Just saying that any UK citizen that decides that the UK is a complete basket case and wants to leave then they should spend the guys of 18 months in paperwork before even buying a ticket, and that a few years ago there was an option for relocation in the EU, but that door is now closed. South sudan has a rapidly growing economy but would I want to move there? No. Would I like to move to Spain? Yes. Unfortunately I need visas and permits wherever I want to go for longer than three months now though Freedom of movement has not ended, 20,000 in small boats since July, free food, hotel and nhs. " Mic drop ! | |||
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"Just saying that any UK citizen that decides that the UK is a complete basket case and wants to leave then they should spend the guys of 18 months in paperwork before even buying a ticket, and that a few years ago there was an option for relocation in the EU, but that door is now closed. South sudan has a rapidly growing economy but would I want to move there? No. Would I like to move to Spain? Yes. Unfortunately I need visas and permits wherever I want to go for longer than three months now though " You already live in the EU... | |||
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"Yes I do, that's with thanks to the common travel area. But if I step outside of UK or Ireland it's passport queues, paperwork and headaches." Apologies. I assumed you held an Irish passport. | |||
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"A decisive PM would ditch Rachel from accounts and immediately reverse the NI contribution rise. This would at least restore some confidence to the economy. But he won't, and so will pay the price himself sooner rather than later." Not looking great fir both of them ONS; economy growth 0% September, -0.1% October ONS: no growth in Quarter 3 (July to Sept) 2024, revised ONS; growth of 0.5% in Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2024 Increasing inflation (1.7 up to 2.3 then 2.6%) Lower business confidence (4 consecutive months) More businesses closing than opening Increased unemployment (4.1% up to 4.3%) We are likely on the precipice of recession None of this applied on 6th July. | |||
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"A decisive PM would ditch Rachel from accounts and immediately reverse the NI contribution rise. This would at least restore some confidence to the economy. But he won't, and so will pay the price himself sooner rather than later. Not looking great fir both of them ONS; economy growth 0% September, -0.1% October ONS: no growth in Quarter 3 (July to Sept) 2024, revised ONS; growth of 0.5% in Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2024 Increasing inflation (1.7 up to 2.3 then 2.6%) Lower business confidence (4 consecutive months) More businesses closing than opening Increased unemployment (4.1% up to 4.3%) We are likely on the precipice of recession None of this applied on 6th July. " Also this is no growth at a time when almost a million people were added to the population in one year, which should boost growth purely by extra numbers! So the real economy is clearly contracting. | |||
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"A decisive PM would ditch Rachel from accounts and immediately reverse the NI contribution rise. This would at least restore some confidence to the economy. But he won't, and so will pay the price himself sooner rather than later. Not looking great for both of them ONS; economy growth 0% September, -0.1% October ONS: no growth in Quarter 3 (July to Sept) 2024, revised ONS; growth of 0.5% in Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2024 Increasing inflation (1.7 up to 2.3 then 2.6%) Lower business confidence (4 consecutive months) More businesses closing than opening Increased unemployment (4.1% up to 4.3%) We are likely on the precipice of recession None of this applied on 6th July. Also this is no growth at a time when almost a million people were added to the population in one year, which should boost growth purely by extra numbers! So the real economy is clearly contracting." And the full impact of the budget is yet to come. | |||
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"A decisive PM would ditch Rachel from accounts and immediately reverse the NI contribution rise. This would at least restore some confidence to the economy. But he won't, and so will pay the price himself sooner rather than later. Not looking great for both of them ONS; economy growth 0% September, -0.1% October ONS: no growth in Quarter 3 (July to Sept) 2024, revised ONS; growth of 0.5% in Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2024 Increasing inflation (1.7 up to 2.3 then 2.6%) Lower business confidence (4 consecutive months) More businesses closing than opening Increased unemployment (4.1% up to 4.3%) We are likely on the precipice of recession None of this applied on 6th July. Also this is no growth at a time when almost a million people were added to the population in one year, which should boost growth purely by extra numbers! So the real economy is clearly contracting. And the full impact of the budget is yet to come. " See what happens after the 6th of April. I have 2 employed people but won't after the 6th if I have not sacked them by the 6th I'll make them redundant and posably wind the company up. | |||
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"A decisive PM would ditch Rachel from accounts and immediately reverse the NI contribution rise. This would at least restore some confidence to the economy. But he won't, and so will pay the price himself sooner rather than later. Not looking great for both of them ONS; economy growth 0% September, -0.1% October ONS: no growth in Quarter 3 (July to Sept) 2024, revised ONS; growth of 0.5% in Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2024 Increasing inflation (1.7 up to 2.3 then 2.6%) Lower business confidence (4 consecutive months) More businesses closing than opening Increased unemployment (4.1% up to 4.3%) We are likely on the precipice of recession None of this applied on 6th July. Also this is no growth at a time when almost a million people were added to the population in one year, which should boost growth purely by extra numbers! So the real economy is clearly contracting. And the full impact of the budget is yet to come. See what happens after the 6th of April. I have 2 employed people but won't after the 6th if I have not sacked them by the 6th I'll make them redundant and posably wind the company up. " The average annual tax increase for employers due to National Insurance changes is estimated to be over £800 per employee | |||
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"Grim outlook on the guardian today: 25% increase in retailers on brink of collapse 2/3rds private renters (about 3 million) can’t afford their rent Christmas retail footfall down 11.4% Recession coming What are Labour going to do. Probably just stick to plan A. We the uk are about to see a car crash again. This time I did not see the boom so guess its just bust. Serious base rate cuts are the only tool in the box Possibly too late. There will be no significant base rate cuts. 10 year gilts have hit a new high today and will continue to climb imo. The interest rate situation and mortgage outlook is far worse now than when Truss was pm. If no cutting of rates then the economic damage will continue. Rayner has no chance of building these 1.5 million homes with rates where they are. " There really can't be any significant movement on interest rates. Well not downward. The BOE will stick to its inflation target of 2% but inflationary pressure will be upwards. The extra costs for businesses from Rachel from complaints budget (NI increase, living wage increase Etc.) will be inflationary. As will the fallout from public sector pay rises. We've already seen the rail unions and junior doctors get their payouts but there are plenty more to come. The civil service unions are rattling their sabres already. The BOE may tinker with the odd .25% but there will be no significant reductions. In fact if inflation gets too high there may even be upward pressure on rates. | |||
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"A decisive PM would ditch Rachel from accounts and immediately reverse the NI contribution rise. This would at least restore some confidence to the economy. But he won't, and so will pay the price himself sooner rather than later. Not looking great for both of them ONS; economy growth 0% September, -0.1% October ONS: no growth in Quarter 3 (July to Sept) 2024, revised ONS; growth of 0.5% in Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2024 Increasing inflation (1.7 up to 2.3 then 2.6%) Lower business confidence (4 consecutive months) More businesses closing than opening Increased unemployment (4.1% up to 4.3%) We are likely on the precipice of recession None of this applied on 6th July. Also this is no growth at a time when almost a million people were added to the population in one year, which should boost growth purely by extra numbers! So the real economy is clearly contracting. And the full impact of the budget is yet to come. See what happens after the 6th of April. I have 2 employed people but won't after the 6th if I have not sacked them by the 6th I'll make them redundant and posably wind the company up. The average annual tax increase for employers due to National Insurance changes is estimated to be over £800 per employee" I have worked out it will be close to 5K each so not affordable. They can work self employed. Saving me money I might even just go back self employed as well. Less stress and less overhead | |||
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"A decisive PM would ditch Rachel from accounts and immediately reverse the NI contribution rise. This would at least restore some confidence to the economy. But he won't, and so will pay the price himself sooner rather than later. Not looking great for both of them ONS; economy growth 0% September, -0.1% October ONS: no growth in Quarter 3 (July to Sept) 2024, revised ONS; growth of 0.5% in Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2024 Increasing inflation (1.7 up to 2.3 then 2.6%) Lower business confidence (4 consecutive months) More businesses closing than opening Increased unemployment (4.1% up to 4.3%) We are likely on the precipice of recession None of this applied on 6th July. Also this is no growth at a time when almost a million people were added to the population in one year, which should boost growth purely by extra numbers! So the real economy is clearly contracting. And the full impact of the budget is yet to come. See what happens after the 6th of April. I have 2 employed people but won't after the 6th if I have not sacked them by the 6th I'll make them redundant and posably wind the company up. The average annual tax increase for employers due to National Insurance changes is estimated to be over £800 per employee I have worked out it will be close to 5K each so not affordable. They can work self employed. Saving me money I might even just go back self employed as well. Less stress and less overhead " I’m not working out the NI maths tbh. Accountant for Plymouth VW told me the NI costs will be £750k to their business. | |||
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"Just to add to the above. When it comes to inflation I missed out Milliband's unhinged net zero nonsense. The extra energy costs will be a strong force on business costs and inflation. “Labour are now finding out that government is a lot more difficult than sniping from the sidelines”. " That was exactly what a Labour minister said recently on housing, that they won’t be able to build what they promised in the _anifesto and it’s harder than what they said from opposition benches. | |||
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"Starmer's latest brainwave is to ask quangos like Ofgem to drive growth !
"I was reading that Labour have averaged one new quango every week since July. The rattle of cans being kicked down the road will be deafening.  | |||
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"Starmer's latest brainwave is to ask quangos like Ofgem to drive growth !
I was reading that Labour have averaged one new quango every week since July.
The rattle of cans being kicked down the road will be deafening. "Yes I read that too, no doubt all staffed with Labour cronies. An anti growth coalition of quangos, public sector unions and high taxes - good luck with that.  | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. " Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. " They weren't too good but how much of that was down to COVID expenditure....such as the employment support stuff? | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. They weren't too good but how much of that was down to COVID expenditure....such as the employment support stuff?" Not as much as originally claimed apparently . Track and trace cost a quarter of the estimate. You could argue bad management of the epidemic was also a massive contributor . It’s not an exact science as inflation long term liabilities and the hangover from the global banking crisis didn’t do us any favours but most of that increase is government’s responsibility. If the government was doing a good job that debt should be reducing. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. " UK National Debt took a huge leap under Labour to deal with the banking crisis. When they left office in 2010 it was rising sharply and passed 1 trillion that year. Under the Coalition and then Tory Govts it rose at a similar steady rate as under Labour in the 1997-2007 period, only jumping sharply again due to Covid, as it did in almost every similar economy. So our huge National debt is mostly down to the banking crisis and covid. If you wish to blame the Tories for their response to Covid then presumably you blame Labour for their response to the banking crisis? In reality both were events outside of domestic control. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. UK National Debt took a huge leap under Labour to deal with the banking crisis. When they left office in 2010 it was rising sharply and passed 1 trillion that year. Under the Coalition and then Tory Govts it rose at a similar steady rate as under Labour in the 1997-2007 period, only jumping sharply again due to Covid, as it did in almost every similar economy. So our huge National debt is mostly down to the banking crisis and covid. If you wish to blame the Tories for their response to Covid then presumably you blame Labour for their response to the banking crisis? In reality both were events outside of domestic control." Please see the government figures of £97 Billion as a cost. Feel free to explain the other hundreds of billions. I did mentioned banking crisis being an issue and covid being an issue . So definitely triggers but the increase in losses whilst supposedly managing our finances through austerity over 14 years doesn’t look great at handling the economy does it. If you added 1 trillion to 97 billion you don’t get £2670 Billion without very poor management. I wasn’t defending labour I was pointing out the Tory party has been appalling in managing this country’s finances. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. UK National Debt took a huge leap under Labour to deal with the banking crisis. When they left office in 2010 it was rising sharply and passed 1 trillion that year. Under the Coalition and then Tory Govts it rose at a similar steady rate as under Labour in the 1997-2007 period, only jumping sharply again due to Covid, as it did in almost every similar economy. So our huge National debt is mostly down to the banking crisis and covid. If you wish to blame the Tories for their response to Covid then presumably you blame Labour for their response to the banking crisis? In reality both were events outside of domestic control. Please see the government figures of £97 Billion as a cost. Feel free to explain the other hundreds of billions. I did mentioned banking crisis being an issue and covid being an issue . So definitely triggers but the increase in losses whilst supposedly managing our finances through austerity over 14 years doesn’t look great at handling the economy does it. If you added 1 trillion to 97 billion you don’t get £2670 Billion without very poor management. I wasn’t defending labour I was pointing out the Tory party has been appalling in managing this country’s finances. " The estimated effect of Covid on the economy is at least 300bn. You're only including Govt direct spending. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. UK National Debt took a huge leap under Labour to deal with the banking crisis. When they left office in 2010 it was rising sharply and passed 1 trillion that year. Under the Coalition and then Tory Govts it rose at a similar steady rate as under Labour in the 1997-2007 period, only jumping sharply again due to Covid, as it did in almost every similar economy. So our huge National debt is mostly down to the banking crisis and covid. If you wish to blame the Tories for their response to Covid then presumably you blame Labour for their response to the banking crisis? In reality both were events outside of domestic control. Please see the government figures of £97 Billion as a cost. Feel free to explain the other hundreds of billions. I did mentioned banking crisis being an issue and covid being an issue . So definitely triggers but the increase in losses whilst supposedly managing our finances through austerity over 14 years doesn’t look great at handling the economy does it. If you added 1 trillion to 97 billion you don’t get £2670 Billion without very poor management. I wasn’t defending labour I was pointing out the Tory party has been appalling in managing this country’s finances. " After austerity cuts the tories increased the national debt by £1.7trn (£2.6trn total) Last time I looked the interest was £9bn a month | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. UK National Debt took a huge leap under Labour to deal with the banking crisis. When they left office in 2010 it was rising sharply and passed 1 trillion that year. Under the Coalition and then Tory Govts it rose at a similar steady rate as under Labour in the 1997-2007 period, only jumping sharply again due to Covid, as it did in almost every similar economy. So our huge National debt is mostly down to the banking crisis and covid. If you wish to blame the Tories for their response to Covid then presumably you blame Labour for their response to the banking crisis? In reality both were events outside of domestic control. Please see the government figures of £97 Billion as a cost. Feel free to explain the other hundreds of billions. I did mentioned banking crisis being an issue and covid being an issue . So definitely triggers but the increase in losses whilst supposedly managing our finances through austerity over 14 years doesn’t look great at handling the economy does it. If you added 1 trillion to 97 billion you don’t get £2670 Billion without very poor management. I wasn’t defending labour I was pointing out the Tory party has been appalling in managing this country’s finances. The estimated effect of Covid on the economy is at least 300bn. You're only including Govt direct spending." Yes and that £300b total is an estimate, so let’s add £200b but now take out result of Boris bad management ( let’s have a party). Or Rishi eat out ( great idea, not), then the meagre growth and increase in tax take from that and where are we? There is no defence for the shocking way the country has been run. Shall we add the PPE or the £11B fuck up in that securities insurance by Rishi . Maybe the Rwanda waste or Brexit losses cutting our tax take. Poor wage increases due to Brexit cost increases for business. We could add the increase to the government coffers of tax due to the dividend of oil taxes increasing on the back of Ukraine’s war. Where’s that dividend? We could add the losses incurred by mortgage holders due to Liz truss and the downturn in subsequent sales performance. We could add the repeated tax increases which the Tory party have imposed. Where’s that benefit gone? Saying what about Labour 14 years ago is no defence. It’s been 14 years of going backwards . If you ran your home finances this badly you would be homeless. If you can’t criticise your own government for what has been a terrible performance then you’re bordering on blind loyalty. Remember those NHS waiting lists were rapidly growing well before covid. Feel free to check waiting lists for when labour were in power. Again I’m not defending labour I’m just exposing the reality. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. UK National Debt took a huge leap under Labour to deal with the banking crisis. When they left office in 2010 it was rising sharply and passed 1 trillion that year. Under the Coalition and then Tory Govts it rose at a similar steady rate as under Labour in the 1997-2007 period, only jumping sharply again due to Covid, as it did in almost every similar economy. So our huge National debt is mostly down to the banking crisis and covid. If you wish to blame the Tories for their response to Covid then presumably you blame Labour for their response to the banking crisis? In reality both were events outside of domestic control. Please see the government figures of £97 Billion as a cost. Feel free to explain the other hundreds of billions. I did mentioned banking crisis being an issue and covid being an issue . So definitely triggers but the increase in losses whilst supposedly managing our finances through austerity over 14 years doesn’t look great at handling the economy does it. If you added 1 trillion to 97 billion you don’t get £2670 Billion without very poor management. I wasn’t defending labour I was pointing out the Tory party has been appalling in managing this country’s finances. The estimated effect of Covid on the economy is at least 300bn. You're only including Govt direct spending. Yes and that £300b total is an estimate, so let’s add £200b but now take out result of Boris bad management ( let’s have a party). Or Rishi eat out ( great idea, not), then the meagre growth and increase in tax take from that and where are we? There is no defence for the shocking way the country has been run. Shall we add the PPE or the £11B fuck up in that securities insurance by Rishi . Maybe the Rwanda waste or Brexit losses cutting our tax take. Poor wage increases due to Brexit cost increases for business. We could add the increase to the government coffers of tax due to the dividend of oil taxes increasing on the back of Ukraine’s war. Where’s that dividend? We could add the losses incurred by mortgage holders due to Liz truss and the downturn in subsequent sales performance. We could add the repeated tax increases which the Tory party have imposed. Where’s that benefit gone? Saying what about Labour 14 years ago is no defence. It’s been 14 years of going backwards . If you ran your home finances this badly you would be homeless. If you can’t criticise your own government for what has been a terrible performance then you’re bordering on blind loyalty. Remember those NHS waiting lists were rapidly growing well before covid. Feel free to check waiting lists for when labour were in power. Again I’m not defending labour I’m just exposing the reality. " I have a couple of points. The Conservatives took on a mess in 2010, that made the disputed 22 billion blackhole look like pocket money... The Labour governments response to the global banking crisis left the national debt rising, passing £1 trillion as they left office. However, austerity measures under the Conservatives were designed to stabilise public finances and restore market confidence, which was achieved in the short to medium term. the root cause of these measures are always conveniently forgotten by the labour supporters.. By controlling spending and prioritising economic stability, the tory led government side stepped the financial crises seen in some other European countries during the same time period. Going back to your point on waiting lists: Labour followed a path they knew little about, introducing the private sector into contracts that shortened waiting lists but put huge financial strain on the treasury and ultimately the tax payer, we are still paying off those contracts today and will be for a few years to come! The PFI contracts cost us 80 billion, for 13 billion of services, time to pay off the debt sometime in the late 2040's!! This approach also opened the doors for privatisation of elements of the beloved NHS, that labour constantly use as a weapon, they have done more harm than good. Historically labour have been loose with economic management, I don't need to give you further examples due to them being provided daily under this government, ref the budget, none negotiated pay rise deals, increasing student loans via tuition fee rise on the back of already rising gilt yields and so on. | |||
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"Various news outlets today reporting Labour’s £400 holiday tax to hit families with highest ever levies on flights" To be honest I don't mind this as if you can afford a holiday you should not pay if anything this could be targeted more holiday that is longhall could be doubled. Some will get round it but most can't be assed.. | |||
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"Various news outlets today reporting Labour’s £400 holiday tax to hit families with highest ever levies on flights To be honest I don't mind this as if you can afford a holiday you should not pay if anything this could be targeted more holiday that is longhall could be doubled. Some will get round it but most can't be assed.. " The increase to long haul flight tax has gone up from £90 to £102. So a rise of £48 for a family of 4. Not quite the over the top headline though is it. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. UK National Debt took a huge leap under Labour to deal with the banking crisis. When they left office in 2010 it was rising sharply and passed 1 trillion that year. Under the Coalition and then Tory Govts it rose at a similar steady rate as under Labour in the 1997-2007 period, only jumping sharply again due to Covid, as it did in almost every similar economy. So our huge National debt is mostly down to the banking crisis and covid. If you wish to blame the Tories for their response to Covid then presumably you blame Labour for their response to the banking crisis? In reality both were events outside of domestic control. Please see the government figures of £97 Billion as a cost. Feel free to explain the other hundreds of billions. I did mentioned banking crisis being an issue and covid being an issue . So definitely triggers but the increase in losses whilst supposedly managing our finances through austerity over 14 years doesn’t look great at handling the economy does it. If you added 1 trillion to 97 billion you don’t get £2670 Billion without very poor management. I wasn’t defending labour I was pointing out the Tory party has been appalling in managing this country’s finances. The estimated effect of Covid on the economy is at least 300bn. You're only including Govt direct spending. Yes and that £300b total is an estimate, so let’s add £200b but now take out result of Boris bad management ( let’s have a party). Or Rishi eat out ( great idea, not), then the meagre growth and increase in tax take from that and where are we? There is no defence for the shocking way the country has been run. Shall we add the PPE or the £11B fuck up in that securities insurance by Rishi . Maybe the Rwanda waste or Brexit losses cutting our tax take. Poor wage increases due to Brexit cost increases for business. We could add the increase to the government coffers of tax due to the dividend of oil taxes increasing on the back of Ukraine’s war. Where’s that dividend? We could add the losses incurred by mortgage holders due to Liz truss and the downturn in subsequent sales performance. We could add the repeated tax increases which the Tory party have imposed. Where’s that benefit gone? Saying what about Labour 14 years ago is no defence. It’s been 14 years of going backwards . If you ran your home finances this badly you would be homeless. If you can’t criticise your own government for what has been a terrible performance then you’re bordering on blind loyalty. Remember those NHS waiting lists were rapidly growing well before covid. Feel free to check waiting lists for when labour were in power. Again I’m not defending labour I’m just exposing the reality. I have a couple of points. The Conservatives took on a mess in 2010, that made the disputed 22 billion blackhole look like pocket money... The Labour governments response to the global banking crisis left the national debt rising, passing £1 trillion as they left office. However, austerity measures under the Conservatives were designed to stabilise public finances and restore market confidence, which was achieved in the short to medium term. the root cause of these measures are always conveniently forgotten by the labour supporters.. By controlling spending and prioritising economic stability, the tory led government side stepped the financial crises seen in some other European countries during the same time period. Going back to your point on waiting lists: Labour followed a path they knew little about, introducing the private sector into contracts that shortened waiting lists but put huge financial strain on the treasury and ultimately the tax payer, we are still paying off those contracts today and will be for a few years to come! The PFI contracts cost us 80 billion, for 13 billion of services, time to pay off the debt sometime in the late 2040's!! This approach also opened the doors for privatisation of elements of the beloved NHS, that labour constantly use as a weapon, they have done more harm than good. Historically labour have been loose with economic management, I don't need to give you further examples due to them being provided daily under this government, ref the budget, none negotiated pay rise deals, increasing student loans via tuition fee rise on the back of already rising gilt yields and so on. " For the third time I’m not defending labour. They have just like the previous government inherited a mess financially. It’s definitely stable decline that’s for sure. The financial crisis was down to banks being deregulated by western governments followed by greed in the industry. Labour were not to blame but they did however continue the deregulation started by the previous Tory government so in my opinion are equally to blame. The losses were all paid for by the lower and middle earners loosing out through austerity. Why weren’t shareholders called on to cough up as their dividends started so quickly after the recovery when austerity was the mantra for the masses for many more years? Even if you add your £80B which isn’t due in one lump sum and hasn’t been paid where did the rest of the over a trillion in debt come from? I personally detest the privatisation of the NHS it will inevitably lead to higher costs for tax payers. Joint funding is just passing on the problem for later I agree with you. I would reform its structure but fundamentally hold people who run it responsible. If you fail you’re out without a parachute and let’s just have a look at those golden pensions for the highest earners. This last point should be pushed out into all the senior civil service. | |||
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"Various news outlets today reporting Labour’s £400 holiday tax to hit families with highest ever levies on flights To be honest I don't mind this as if you can afford a holiday you should not pay if anything this could be targeted more holiday that is longhall could be doubled. Some will get round it but most can't be assed.. The increase to long haul flight tax has gone up from £90 to £102. So a rise of £48 for a family of 4. Not quite the over the top headline though is it. " So do you think this is enough or should it be more like 10% or more on everything. | |||
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"Various news outlets today reporting Labour’s £400 holiday tax to hit families with highest ever levies on flights To be honest I don't mind this as if you can afford a holiday you should not pay if anything this could be targeted more holiday that is longhall could be doubled. Some will get round it but most can't be assed.. The increase to long haul flight tax has gone up from £90 to £102. So a rise of £48 for a family of 4. Not quite the over the top headline though is it. So do you think this is enough or should it be more like 10% or more on everything. " I was pointing out that the headline that it was a £400 labour tax was let’s say a tad disingenuous, when it was already £352. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. UK National Debt took a huge leap under Labour to deal with the banking crisis. When they left office in 2010 it was rising sharply and passed 1 trillion that year. Under the Coalition and then Tory Govts it rose at a similar steady rate as under Labour in the 1997-2007 period, only jumping sharply again due to Covid, as it did in almost every similar economy. So our huge National debt is mostly down to the banking crisis and covid. If you wish to blame the Tories for their response to Covid then presumably you blame Labour for their response to the banking crisis? In reality both were events outside of domestic control. Please see the government figures of £97 Billion as a cost. Feel free to explain the other hundreds of billions. I did mentioned banking crisis being an issue and covid being an issue . So definitely triggers but the increase in losses whilst supposedly managing our finances through austerity over 14 years doesn’t look great at handling the economy does it. If you added 1 trillion to 97 billion you don’t get £2670 Billion without very poor management. I wasn’t defending labour I was pointing out the Tory party has been appalling in managing this country’s finances. The estimated effect of Covid on the economy is at least 300bn. You're only including Govt direct spending. Yes and that £300b total is an estimate, so let’s add £200b but now take out result of Boris bad management ( let’s have a party). Or Rishi eat out ( great idea, not), then the meagre growth and increase in tax take from that and where are we? There is no defence for the shocking way the country has been run. Shall we add the PPE or the £11B fuck up in that securities insurance by Rishi . Maybe the Rwanda waste or Brexit losses cutting our tax take. Poor wage increases due to Brexit cost increases for business. We could add the increase to the government coffers of tax due to the dividend of oil taxes increasing on the back of Ukraine’s war. Where’s that dividend? We could add the losses incurred by mortgage holders due to Liz truss and the downturn in subsequent sales performance. We could add the repeated tax increases which the Tory party have imposed. Where’s that benefit gone? Saying what about Labour 14 years ago is no defence. It’s been 14 years of going backwards . If you ran your home finances this badly you would be homeless. If you can’t criticise your own government for what has been a terrible performance then you’re bordering on blind loyalty. Remember those NHS waiting lists were rapidly growing well before covid. Feel free to check waiting lists for when labour were in power. Again I’m not defending labour I’m just exposing the reality. I have a couple of points. The Conservatives took on a mess in 2010, that made the disputed 22 billion blackhole look like pocket money... The Labour governments response to the global banking crisis left the national debt rising, passing £1 trillion as they left office. However, austerity measures under the Conservatives were designed to stabilise public finances and restore market confidence, which was achieved in the short to medium term. the root cause of these measures are always conveniently forgotten by the labour supporters.. By controlling spending and prioritising economic stability, the tory led government side stepped the financial crises seen in some other European countries during the same time period. Going back to your point on waiting lists: Labour followed a path they knew little about, introducing the private sector into contracts that shortened waiting lists but put huge financial strain on the treasury and ultimately the tax payer, we are still paying off those contracts today and will be for a few years to come! The PFI contracts cost us 80 billion, for 13 billion of services, time to pay off the debt sometime in the late 2040's!! This approach also opened the doors for privatisation of elements of the beloved NHS, that labour constantly use as a weapon, they have done more harm than good. Historically labour have been loose with economic management, I don't need to give you further examples due to them being provided daily under this government, ref the budget, none negotiated pay rise deals, increasing student loans via tuition fee rise on the back of already rising gilt yields and so on. For the third time I’m not defending labour. They have just like the previous government inherited a mess financially. It’s definitely stable decline that’s for sure. The financial crisis was down to banks being deregulated by western governments followed by greed in the industry. Labour were not to blame but they did however continue the deregulation started by the previous Tory government so in my opinion are equally to blame. The losses were all paid for by the lower and middle earners loosing out through austerity. Why weren’t shareholders called on to cough up as their dividends started so quickly after the recovery when austerity was the mantra for the masses for many more years? Even if you add your £80B which isn’t due in one lump sum and hasn’t been paid where did the rest of the over a trillion in debt come from? I personally detest the privatisation of the NHS it will inevitably lead to higher costs for tax payers. Joint funding is just passing on the problem for later I agree with you. I would reform its structure but fundamentally hold people who run it responsible. If you fail you’re out without a parachute and let’s just have a look at those golden pensions for the highest earners. This last point should be pushed out into all the senior civil service. " I didn't say you were defending labour, I was providing examples of how they failed with the economy during their previous terms in power. Unfortunately this government is mirroring those mistakes at a policy level and at party leadership decision making level. Why are they failing so soon is the important question, if they keep plodding on we are going to be in a real mess this time next year. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. UK National Debt took a huge leap under Labour to deal with the banking crisis. When they left office in 2010 it was rising sharply and passed 1 trillion that year. Under the Coalition and then Tory Govts it rose at a similar steady rate as under Labour in the 1997-2007 period, only jumping sharply again due to Covid, as it did in almost every similar economy. So our huge National debt is mostly down to the banking crisis and covid. If you wish to blame the Tories for their response to Covid then presumably you blame Labour for their response to the banking crisis? In reality both were events outside of domestic control. Please see the government figures of £97 Billion as a cost. Feel free to explain the other hundreds of billions. I did mentioned banking crisis being an issue and covid being an issue . So definitely triggers but the increase in losses whilst supposedly managing our finances through austerity over 14 years doesn’t look great at handling the economy does it. If you added 1 trillion to 97 billion you don’t get £2670 Billion without very poor management. I wasn’t defending labour I was pointing out the Tory party has been appalling in managing this country’s finances. The estimated effect of Covid on the economy is at least 300bn. You're only including Govt direct spending. Yes and that £300b total is an estimate, so let’s add £200b but now take out result of Boris bad management ( let’s have a party). Or Rishi eat out ( great idea, not), then the meagre growth and increase in tax take from that and where are we? There is no defence for the shocking way the country has been run. Shall we add the PPE or the £11B fuck up in that securities insurance by Rishi . Maybe the Rwanda waste or Brexit losses cutting our tax take. Poor wage increases due to Brexit cost increases for business. We could add the increase to the government coffers of tax due to the dividend of oil taxes increasing on the back of Ukraine’s war. Where’s that dividend? We could add the losses incurred by mortgage holders due to Liz truss and the downturn in subsequent sales performance. We could add the repeated tax increases which the Tory party have imposed. Where’s that benefit gone? Saying what about Labour 14 years ago is no defence. It’s been 14 years of going backwards . If you ran your home finances this badly you would be homeless. If you can’t criticise your own government for what has been a terrible performance then you’re bordering on blind loyalty. Remember those NHS waiting lists were rapidly growing well before covid. Feel free to check waiting lists for when labour were in power. Again I’m not defending labour I’m just exposing the reality. I have a couple of points. The Conservatives took on a mess in 2010, that made the disputed 22 billion blackhole look like pocket money... The Labour governments response to the global banking crisis left the national debt rising, passing £1 trillion as they left office. However, austerity measures under the Conservatives were designed to stabilise public finances and restore market confidence, which was achieved in the short to medium term. the root cause of these measures are always conveniently forgotten by the labour supporters.. By controlling spending and prioritising economic stability, the tory led government side stepped the financial crises seen in some other European countries during the same time period. Going back to your point on waiting lists: Labour followed a path they knew little about, introducing the private sector into contracts that shortened waiting lists but put huge financial strain on the treasury and ultimately the tax payer, we are still paying off those contracts today and will be for a few years to come! The PFI contracts cost us 80 billion, for 13 billion of services, time to pay off the debt sometime in the late 2040's!! This approach also opened the doors for privatisation of elements of the beloved NHS, that labour constantly use as a weapon, they have done more harm than good. Historically labour have been loose with economic management, I don't need to give you further examples due to them being provided daily under this government, ref the budget, none negotiated pay rise deals, increasing student loans via tuition fee rise on the back of already rising gilt yields and so on. For the third time I’m not defending labour. They have just like the previous government inherited a mess financially. It’s definitely stable decline that’s for sure. The financial crisis was down to banks being deregulated by western governments followed by greed in the industry. Labour were not to blame but they did however continue the deregulation started by the previous Tory government so in my opinion are equally to blame. The losses were all paid for by the lower and middle earners loosing out through austerity. Why weren’t shareholders called on to cough up as their dividends started so quickly after the recovery when austerity was the mantra for the masses for many more years? Even if you add your £80B which isn’t due in one lump sum and hasn’t been paid where did the rest of the over a trillion in debt come from? I personally detest the privatisation of the NHS it will inevitably lead to higher costs for tax payers. Joint funding is just passing on the problem for later I agree with you. I would reform its structure but fundamentally hold people who run it responsible. If you fail you’re out without a parachute and let’s just have a look at those golden pensions for the highest earners. This last point should be pushed out into all the senior civil service. I didn't say you were defending labour, I was providing examples of how they failed with the economy during their previous terms in power. Unfortunately this government is mirroring those mistakes at a policy level and at party leadership decision making level. Why are they failing so soon is the important question, if they keep plodding on we are going to be in a real mess this time next year. " I agree if they continue to make stupid self inflicted mistakes then you may be right. All they have to do is ignore the culture wars and install sensible policies. They don’t have to do much to be better than the last 14 years. The immigration fiasco is a key example of what is a really complicated issue being turned into a red meat or left wing choice because to be truthful it was too hard for them to put the effort in for a long term fix and it supported the right wing media idea that immigration is the reason for our long term economic decline. The government also knew It made people feel better about themselves because they weren’t a badly off as immigrants. The whole issue is very complicated due to our need for both skilled and unskilled labour but also the need to control numbers of non economic migrants. Instead of trying to fix the problem the issue was seen and exploited as a political weapon rather than thinking the desire to come here could be a long term asset to our economy. I’m not saying it can be an asset because I don’t know. I do know due to our aging population we do need workers . | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. They weren't too good but how much of that was down to COVID expenditure....such as the employment support stuff? Not as much as originally claimed apparently . Track and trace cost a quarter of the estimate. You could argue bad management of the epidemic was also a massive contributor . It’s not an exact science as inflation long term liabilities and the hangover from the global banking crisis didn’t do us any favours but most of that increase is government’s responsibility. If the government was doing a good job that debt should be reducing. " So if Labour do not reduce the debt by the end of their term would that mean they have also not done a good job? | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. They weren't too good but how much of that was down to COVID expenditure....such as the employment support stuff? Not as much as originally claimed apparently . Track and trace cost a quarter of the estimate. You could argue bad management of the epidemic was also a massive contributor . It’s not an exact science as inflation long term liabilities and the hangover from the global banking crisis didn’t do us any favours but most of that increase is government’s responsibility. If the government was doing a good job that debt should be reducing. So if Labour do not reduce the debt by the end of their term would that mean they have also not done a good job?" Yet more deflection. Can you not accept the Tory party have spectacularly failed to move this country forward in any way? The debt has increased dramatically. The NHS is failing. Schools are literally falling down. Our armed forces can’t recruit due to shit privatised housing and poor wages. The Navy is having to pay engineers £10-20k bonuses to stop them leaving. Our roads are falling apart with billions needed in repairs. Our boarder security is woefully inadequate for purpose since Brexit requires more regulation. I have anecdotal evidence that Drugs and cigarettes shipments into the U.K. are increasing as we speak because we’re not checking enough containers routing through the EU ports. ( we can’t afford anymore slowdowns) Immigration management has been just shambolic. Look at the lack of growth over the last 10 years and what’s the best you can say? What about Labour. Really? They’ve been in office for a few months. I have no idea if they will be better. I do hope so. My only comfort is, it is going to be extremely difficult for them to be worse. People refusing to see how terrible our county has been run I find truly shocking. If Labour are worse or even the same I will be equally critical. This is way beyond party politics this is core governance incompetence. We should all be questioning the level of our MPs intelligence or experience to do the job. The taxpayer actually hands over cash to the likes of Lee Anderson! We have around a thousand lords FFS! All the while this circus rambles along any increase in wealth is increasingly going to fewer and fewer people. | |||
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"Various news outlets today reporting Labour’s £400 holiday tax to hit families with highest ever levies on flights To be honest I don't mind this as if you can afford a holiday you should not pay if anything this could be targeted more holiday that is longhall could be doubled. Some will get round it but most can't be assed.. The increase to long haul flight tax has gone up from £90 to £102. So a rise of £48 for a family of 4. Not quite the over the top headline though is it. So do you think this is enough or should it be more like 10% or more on everything. I was pointing out that the headline that it was a £400 labour tax was let’s say a tad disingenuous, when it was already £352." OK yes very true but would you be OK if this was increased. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. They weren't too good but how much of that was down to COVID expenditure....such as the employment support stuff? Not as much as originally claimed apparently . Track and trace cost a quarter of the estimate. You could argue bad management of the epidemic was also a massive contributor . It’s not an exact science as inflation long term liabilities and the hangover from the global banking crisis didn’t do us any favours but most of that increase is government’s responsibility. If the government was doing a good job that debt should be reducing. So if Labour do not reduce the debt by the end of their term would that mean they have also not done a good job? Yet more deflection. Can you not accept the Tory party have spectacularly failed to move this country forward in any way? The debt has increased dramatically. The NHS is failing. Schools are literally falling down. Our armed forces can’t recruit due to shit privatised housing and poor wages. The Navy is having to pay engineers £10-20k bonuses to stop them leaving. Our roads are falling apart with billions needed in repairs. Our boarder security is woefully inadequate for purpose since Brexit requires more regulation. I have anecdotal evidence that Drugs and cigarettes shipments into the U.K. are increasing as we speak because we’re not checking enough containers routing through the EU ports. ( we can’t afford anymore slowdowns) Immigration management has been just shambolic. Look at the lack of growth over the last 10 years and what’s the best you can say? What about Labour. Really? They’ve been in office for a few months. I have no idea if they will be better. I do hope so. My only comfort is, it is going to be extremely difficult for them to be worse. People refusing to see how terrible our county has been run I find truly shocking. If Labour are worse or even the same I will be equally critical. This is way beyond party politics this is core governance incompetence. We should all be questioning the level of our MPs intelligence or experience to do the job. The taxpayer actually hands over cash to the likes of Lee Anderson! We have around a thousand lords FFS! All the while this circus rambles along any increase in wealth is increasingly going to fewer and fewer people. " I can only think you have me mixed up with someone else as I have criticised the Tories plenty when they were in office and refused to give them my vote this time around. My very simple question was on your statement that (quote) If the government was doing a good job that debt should be reducing. I simply asked, So if Labour do not reduce the debt by the end of their term would that mean they have also not done a good job? I don't see your answer to this question in your reply. Oddly instead you accuse me of deflection by mentioning labour in a thread about the economy under Labour. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. They weren't too good but how much of that was down to COVID expenditure....such as the employment support stuff? Not as much as originally claimed apparently . Track and trace cost a quarter of the estimate. You could argue bad management of the epidemic was also a massive contributor . It’s not an exact science as inflation long term liabilities and the hangover from the global banking crisis didn’t do us any favours but most of that increase is government’s responsibility. If the government was doing a good job that debt should be reducing. So if Labour do not reduce the debt by the end of their term would that mean they have also not done a good job? Yet more deflection. Can you not accept the Tory party have spectacularly failed to move this country forward in any way? The debt has increased dramatically. The NHS is failing. Schools are literally falling down. Our armed forces can’t recruit due to shit privatised housing and poor wages. The Navy is having to pay engineers £10-20k bonuses to stop them leaving. Our roads are falling apart with billions needed in repairs. Our boarder security is woefully inadequate for purpose since Brexit requires more regulation. I have anecdotal evidence that Drugs and cigarettes shipments into the U.K. are increasing as we speak because we’re not checking enough containers routing through the EU ports. ( we can’t afford anymore slowdowns) Immigration management has been just shambolic. Look at the lack of growth over the last 10 years and what’s the best you can say? What about Labour. Really? They’ve been in office for a few months. I have no idea if they will be better. I do hope so. My only comfort is, it is going to be extremely difficult for them to be worse. People refusing to see how terrible our county has been run I find truly shocking. If Labour are worse or even the same I will be equally critical. This is way beyond party politics this is core governance incompetence. We should all be questioning the level of our MPs intelligence or experience to do the job. The taxpayer actually hands over cash to the likes of Lee Anderson! We have around a thousand lords FFS! All the while this circus rambles along any increase in wealth is increasingly going to fewer and fewer people. I can only think you have me mixed up with someone else as I have criticised the Tories plenty when they were in office and refused to give them my vote this time around. My very simple question was on your statement that (quote) If the government was doing a good job that debt should be reducing. I simply asked, So if Labour do not reduce the debt by the end of their term would that mean they have also not done a good job? I don't see your answer to this question in your reply. Oddly instead you accuse me of deflection by mentioning labour in a thread about the economy under Labour. " My apologies if I have misrepresented you personally that was not my intention. The fact that the present government have been in power for such a short time will inevitably lead to their performance being affected by the previous governments many years of policies. As I said I’m happy to criticise any party if it’s valid so by your measure yes they would have failed in that particular test. If whist failing there, they perform well overall then that’s a different argument. I doubt very much if they can repair the large range of issues created by years of mismanagement but I’m hoping some repairs can be achieved. I also think they will fail a lot too if I’m honest but that relates to the quality of our governments in general. One measure is never a good picture of a governments performance. | |||
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"It's a little odd that people who bang on about Liz Truss's five minutes as PM also think Sir Kier's six months in office is too short to judge.🤔" For comparison “The Resolution Foundation calculates that the mini-budget cost the UK Treasury £30bn, the Truss government caused roughly that amount of the fiscal hole which the Treasury claims is £60bn. The Resolution Foundation estimates that Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng lost £20bn through unfunded cuts to national insurance and stamp duty, and another £10bn were lost through raised interest rates and government borrowing costs as the markets reacted to the budget.” This is added taxpayers cash going out! It would have been a further £60B if the corporate tax rate cuts were not cancelled. The resulting surge in mortgage payments also had the equivalent effect of adding 5p to the basic rate of income tax. Hard to define who gets that cash in the end but it’s a drag on average household incomes to the tune of billions. I think they’ve got to go a long way to cause that much carnage. Winter fuel payment cuts £1.4B. Farmers tax £500-1B estimate but could be less. Both these amounts are positive for the government. | |||
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"Yes I do, that's with thanks to the common travel area. But if I step outside of UK or Ireland it's passport queues, paperwork and headaches. Apologies. I assumed you held an Irish passport. " I've just completed all the paperwork for permission to apply for an Irish Passport, grandad born in Dublin. It's for travel once retirement comes to circumnavigate 90/180. As for working overseas, Paul has done so for years and it's his employer who sorts out entry clearance and visas etc. Even after all these years he still loves working abroad. He would recommend anyone to give it a whirl. | |||
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" I think they’ve got to go a long way to cause that much carnage. " How many billions lost in turning GDP from 0.5% growth to 0.1% loss ? | |||
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" I think they’ve got to go a long way to cause that much carnage. How many billions lost in turning GDP from 0.5% growth to 0.1% loss ? " There’s a Mathematician poster to correct me. £3.1trn gdp x 0.6% is £18.6bn. Tax is 41% gdp - £7.6bn. Thats the school fee tax, pensioner fuel duty and farmers tax grab wiped out in one swoop. | |||
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" I think they’ve got to go a long way to cause that much carnage. How many billions lost in turning GDP from 0.5% growth to 0.1% loss ? There’s a Mathematician poster to correct me. £3.1trn gdp x 0.6% is £18.6bn. Tax is 41% gdp - £7.6bn. Thats the school fee tax, pensioner fuel duty and farmers tax grab wiped out in one swoop. " Hmm apples and oranges? If you’re using that as a measure then please don’t forget the flat line and shrinking economic months with the Tory party or the negative effects of Brexit. Again a far greater number. The up and down of GDP will always be a long term measure so who can confirm what will the five year overall growth or loss of the labour term? The immediate costs, reactions of cause and direct effects of specific actions are a different measurement I think you would agree. Maybe that negative growth was caused by a Rishi Sunak policy? Maybe not. Maybe it was Tony Blair. The media will say it’s always labour’s fault but you know that too. Specific policy with planned numbers around actual tax and payments are easily measured. I excluded the £60B I mentioned around the corporation tax effect because although it was an estimate by the OBR as the policy was reversed so could never be measured as a final fact. | |||
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" I think they’ve got to go a long way to cause that much carnage. How many billions lost in turning GDP from 0.5% growth to 0.1% loss ? There’s a Mathematician poster to correct me. £3.1trn gdp x 0.6% is £18.6bn. Tax is 41% gdp - £7.6bn. Thats the school fee tax, pensioner fuel duty and farmers tax grab wiped out in one swoop. Hmm apples and oranges? If you’re using that as a measure then please don’t forget the flat line and shrinking economic months with the Tory party or the negative effects of Brexit. Again a far greater number. The up and down of GDP will always be a long term measure so who can confirm what will the five year overall growth or loss of the labour term? The immediate costs, reactions of cause and direct effects of specific actions are a different measurement I think you would agree. Maybe that negative growth was caused by a Rishi Sunak policy? Maybe not. Maybe it was Tony Blair. The media will say it’s always labour’s fault but you know that too. Specific policy with planned numbers around actual tax and payments are easily measured. I excluded the £60B I mentioned around the corporation tax effect because although it was an estimate by the OBR as the policy was reversed so could never be measured as a final fact. " Agreed. Was making the point that the budget tax grab is now lost (for the time being) | |||
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" I think they’ve got to go a long way to cause that much carnage. How many billions lost in turning GDP from 0.5% growth to 0.1% loss ? There’s a Mathematician poster to correct me. £3.1trn gdp x 0.6% is £18.6bn. Tax is 41% gdp - £7.6bn. Thats the school fee tax, pensioner fuel duty and farmers tax grab wiped out in one swoop. Hmm apples and oranges? If you’re using that as a measure then please don’t forget the flat line and shrinking economic months with the Tory party or the negative effects of Brexit. Again a far greater number. The up and down of GDP will always be a long term measure so who can confirm what will the five year overall growth or loss of the labour term? The immediate costs, reactions of cause and direct effects of specific actions are a different measurement I think you would agree. Maybe that negative growth was caused by a Rishi Sunak policy? Maybe not. Maybe it was Tony Blair. The media will say it’s always labour’s fault but you know that too. Specific policy with planned numbers around actual tax and payments are easily measured. I excluded the £60B I mentioned around the corporation tax effect because although it was an estimate by the OBR as the policy was reversed so could never be measured as a final fact. Agreed. Was making the point that the budget tax grab is now lost (for the time being) " I agree with you there. Totally
I have no faith in our politicians of any party.
Labour want to be seen to be putting in a bit of effort in to fixing things but seem to be too nervous or not that sure of what to do first. 14 years to work on a plan FFS. Corbyn caused a distraction to be fair.
Tories are just a mess after years of multiple prime ministers and infighting between too many self interested incompetents.
Reform is mini MAGA who promises are a joke and have no actual policies apart from wishful thinking to please those don’t read more than a headline . They are also great believers in filter down economics which we know doesn’t work for most.
No idea what liberals stand for - my bad
Greens they have a place to reign in corporate greed at the expense of everyone and the planet.
Any one fancy starting the intelligent and practical party?
Have at great New Year everyone. | |||
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" I think they’ve got to go a long way to cause that much carnage. How many billions lost in turning GDP from 0.5% growth to 0.1% loss ? There’s a Mathematician poster to correct me. £3.1trn gdp x 0.6% is £18.6bn. Tax is 41% gdp - £7.6bn. Thats the school fee tax, pensioner fuel duty and farmers tax grab wiped out in one swoop. Hmm apples and oranges? If you’re using that as a measure then please don’t forget the flat line and shrinking economic months with the Tory party or the negative effects of Brexit. Again a far greater number. The up and down of GDP will always be a long term measure so who can confirm what will the five year overall growth or loss of the labour term? The immediate costs, reactions of cause and direct effects of specific actions are a different measurement I think you would agree. Maybe that negative growth was caused by a Rishi Sunak policy? Maybe not. Maybe it was Tony Blair. The media will say it’s always labour’s fault but you know that too. Specific policy with planned numbers around actual tax and payments are easily measured. I excluded the £60B I mentioned around the corporation tax effect because although it was an estimate by the OBR as the policy was reversed so could never be measured as a final fact. Agreed. Was making the point that the budget tax grab is now lost (for the time being) I agree with you there. Totally
I have no faith in our politicians of any party.
Labour want to be seen to be putting in a bit of effort in to fixing things but seem to be too nervous or not that sure of what to do first. 14 years to work on a plan FFS. Corbyn caused a distraction to be fair.
Tories are just a mess after years of multiple prime ministers and infighting between too many self interested incompetents.
Reform is mini MAGA who promises are a joke and have no actual policies apart from wishful thinking to please those don’t read more than a headline . They are also great believers in filter down economics which we know doesn’t work for most.
No idea what liberals stand for - my bad
Greens they have a place to reign in corporate greed at the expense of everyone and the planet.
Any one fancy starting the intelligent and practical party?
Have at great New Year everyone. "To answer your last question. No not a chance. Britain, and most of Europe, is far too polarised. One mans intelligent and practical party is the next mans bunch of stupid muppets. Left leaning party's tend to be far too ideologically driven and are very rarely, if ever, practical. Only countries with massive wealth, small populations and the will to compromise (Norway for example) can make it work. Guess where they get their wealth from. Which brings me to the prime example for Britain. Energy policy. A practical solution to give a huge boost to the economy would be to open up more North Sea oil fields and to start extracting shale gas (which Britain has in abundance) Why buy Norwegian gas when we've got more than enough of our own? But no, it will likely never happen. The Labour party are ideologically opposed to it and the Tories were so scared of the green lobby they just kicked it into the long grass. Not much practicality there then. I've got to agree that the Tories are just a mess at the moment (and that is from a life long Tory) I just don't see them improving any time soon. Reform? They have their place and would be a much stronger opposition than the current Tory party. But I don't see them as a party of government. Maybe a small role in a coalition but that would be about it. Tory/Reform coalition in 2029? I wouldn't rule it out. Lib Dems? Or Limp Dims as I tend to call them. With you on that, I've no idea either. Then we come to the Greens. Ideology is pretty much stamped on their foreheads. For practicality think chocolate fireguards and peashooters in a battle. One look at the (now collapsed) German government is all the proof you need. Oh and don't be too hard on "corporate greed" it may be unpalatable to some but it pays the lions share of the tax take. You would soon miss it if it disappeared abroad. | |||
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"Brexit, covid and mismanagement of economy by the Tories And We can blame a lot of things, but the reality is the labour government have impacted negatively on what was a growing economy Red and blue both a disaster. So what next ? The tories were a disaster as a party, however they had a better grip on the economy than labour. They now need to rebuild and get their strategy nailed in the next 3 years to start the drive for no 10. Figures from the ONS National debt in June 2010 - £770 Billion National debt in December 2024 - £2670 Billion Not sure you’re right about how good they were with the economy. They weren't too good but how much of that was down to COVID expenditure....such as the employment support stuff? Not as much as originally claimed apparently . Track and trace cost a quarter of the estimate. You could argue bad management of the epidemic was also a massive contributor . It’s not an exact science as inflation long term liabilities and the hangover from the global banking crisis didn’t do us any favours but most of that increase is government’s responsibility. If the government was doing a good job that debt should be reducing. So if Labour do not reduce the debt by the end of their term would that mean they have also not done a good job? Yet more deflection. Can you not accept the Tory party have spectacularly failed to move this country forward in any way? The debt has increased dramatically. The NHS is failing. Schools are literally falling down. Our armed forces can’t recruit due to shit privatised housing and poor wages. The Navy is having to pay engineers £10-20k bonuses to stop them leaving. Our roads are falling apart with billions needed in repairs. Our boarder security is woefully inadequate for purpose since Brexit requires more regulation. I have anecdotal evidence that Drugs and cigarettes shipments into the U.K. are increasing as we speak because we’re not checking enough containers routing through the EU ports. ( we can’t afford anymore slowdowns) Immigration management has been just shambolic. Look at the lack of growth over the last 10 years and what’s the best you can say? What about Labour. Really? They’ve been in office for a few months. I have no idea if they will be better. I do hope so. My only comfort is, it is going to be extremely difficult for them to be worse. People refusing to see how terrible our county has been run I find truly shocking. If Labour are worse or even the same I will be equally critical. This is way beyond party politics this is core governance incompetence. We should all be questioning the level of our MPs intelligence or experience to do the job. The taxpayer actually hands over cash to the likes of Lee Anderson! We have around a thousand lords FFS! All the while this circus rambles along any increase in wealth is increasingly going to fewer and fewer people. I can only think you have me mixed up with someone else as I have criticised the Tories plenty when they were in office and refused to give them my vote this time around. My very simple question was on your statement that (quote) If the government was doing a good job that debt should be reducing. I simply asked, So if Labour do not reduce the debt by the end of their term would that mean they have also not done a good job? I don't see your answer to this question in your reply. Oddly instead you accuse me of deflection by mentioning labour in a thread about the economy under Labour. My apologies if I have misrepresented you personally that was not my intention. The fact that the present government have been in power for such a short time will inevitably lead to their performance being affected by the previous governments many years of policies. As I said I’m happy to criticise any party if it’s valid so by your measure yes they would have failed in that particular test. If whist failing there, they perform well overall then that’s a different argument. I doubt very much if they can repair the large range of issues created by years of mismanagement but I’m hoping some repairs can be achieved. I also think they will fail a lot too if I’m honest but that relates to the quality of our governments in general. One measure is never a good picture of a governments performance. " No worries. It's easy to get muddled up on here of who posted what sometimes. I agree one measure is not the full picture of a governments performance. I only highlighted it as you yourself said, when talking about the previous bunch of clowns, 'if a government was doing a good job then the debt would be falling'. My question was basically asking if you would judge this government in the same way at the end of their term. It seems like me, and others here, you are not blinded by any party loyalty. | |||
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" I think they’ve got to go a long way to cause that much carnage. How many billions lost in turning GDP from 0.5% growth to 0.1% loss ? There’s a Mathematician poster to correct me. £3.1trn gdp x 0.6% is £18.6bn. Tax is 41% gdp - £7.6bn. Thats the school fee tax, pensioner fuel duty and farmers tax grab wiped out in one swoop. Hmm apples and oranges? If you’re using that as a measure then please don’t forget the flat line and shrinking economic months with the Tory party or the negative effects of Brexit. Again a far greater number. The up and down of GDP will always be a long term measure so who can confirm what will the five year overall growth or loss of the labour term? The immediate costs, reactions of cause and direct effects of specific actions are a different measurement I think you would agree. Maybe that negative growth was caused by a Rishi Sunak policy? Maybe not. Maybe it was Tony Blair. The media will say it’s always labour’s fault but you know that too. Specific policy with planned numbers around actual tax and payments are easily measured. I excluded the £60B I mentioned around the corporation tax effect because although it was an estimate by the OBR as the policy was reversed so could never be measured as a final fact. Agreed. Was making the point that the budget tax grab is now lost (for the time being) I agree with you there. Totally
I have no faith in our politicians of any party.
Labour want to be seen to be putting in a bit of effort in to fixing things but seem to be too nervous or not that sure of what to do first. 14 years to work on a plan FFS. Corbyn caused a distraction to be fair.
Tories are just a mess after years of multiple prime ministers and infighting between too many self interested incompetents.
Reform is mini MAGA who promises are a joke and have no actual policies apart from wishful thinking to please those don’t read more than a headline . They are also great believers in filter down economics which we know doesn’t work for most.
No idea what liberals stand for - my bad
Greens they have a place to reign in corporate greed at the expense of everyone and the planet.
Any one fancy starting the intelligent and practical party?
Have at great New Year everyone.
To answer your last question. No not a chance.
Britain, and most of Europe, is far too polarised. One mans intelligent and practical party is the next mans bunch of stupid muppets.
Left leaning party's tend to be far too ideologically driven and are very rarely, if ever, practical. Only countries with massive wealth, small populations and the will to compromise (Norway for example) can make it work. Guess where they get their wealth from.
Which brings me to the prime example for Britain. Energy policy.
A practical solution to give a huge boost to the economy would be to open up more North Sea oil fields and to start extracting shale gas (which Britain has in abundance) Why buy Norwegian gas when we've got more than enough of our own?
But no, it will likely never happen. The Labour party are ideologically opposed to it and the Tories were so scared of the green lobby they just kicked it into the long grass. Not much practicality there then.
I've got to agree that the Tories are just a mess at the moment (and that is from a life long Tory) I just don't see them improving any time soon.
Reform? They have their place and would be a much stronger opposition than the current Tory party. But I don't see them as a party of government. Maybe a small role in a coalition but that would be about it. Tory/Reform coalition in 2029? I wouldn't rule it out.
Lib Dems? Or Limp Dims as I tend to call them. With you on that, I've no idea either.
Then we come to the Greens. Ideology is pretty much stamped on their foreheads. For practicality think chocolate fireguards and peashooters in a battle. One look at the (now collapsed) German government is all the proof you need.
Oh and don't be too hard on "corporate greed" it may be unpalatable to some but it pays the lions share of the tax take. You would soon miss it if it disappeared abroad.
"Norways socialist approach to the oil wealth is what made them realise that for their community the tax take from oil would be ring fenced and kept separate from political interference. Their fund has strict rules and no party argues them. To look at oil as your saviour is in my opinion a very backward view. Saudi Arabia have released various very large investment funds related to green energy. They know oil will have its place but also know it’s not the future. The U.K. is second only to the US in technical developments such as AI and we should pour money into that as a nation to keep our economy relevant. To support that tech huge energy is needed and that’s not going to be oil or natural gas. Fortunately the UK is a leader in the field of renewables and needs to keep that lead. Renewables will give all nations independence from oil so its value ling term is limited. Add to all this the corporate world is moving way ahead of governments in turning green. I’m heavily involved in quite a few large scale projects and it’s the global players and investors who are starting to make their commitments so it is coming. The UK cannot afford to be in the past. I have no issue with corporate greed if it’s greed for success but when it behaves as it does in the US where the federal minimum wage is around $8 and the richest corporations don’t pay any tax then I will call it out. That lions share is getting thinner. The U.K. does not want to follow the US model of capitalism. It’s long term prognosis is failure. If you destroy the fabric of a society which is the basis for wealth you destroy society as a whole. I prefer the Scandinavian socialist capitalism even though they too have problems. As for Reform, the whole concept is a lie so I hope it’s exposed for the culture war approach which has no policies other than emotional exploitation of peoples fears. Those fears fed by repeated misleading information. I’m off to see in the New Year then wil only glance on here. It’s been good to chat and may I wish you a very Happy New Year. | |||
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" I think they’ve got to go a long way to cause that much carnage. How many billions lost in turning GDP from 0.5% growth to 0.1% loss ? There’s a Mathematician poster to correct me. £3.1trn gdp x 0.6% is £18.6bn. Tax is 41% gdp - £7.6bn. Thats the school fee tax, pensioner fuel duty and farmers tax grab wiped out in one swoop. Hmm apples and oranges? If you’re using that as a measure then please don’t forget the flat line and shrinking economic months with the Tory party or the negative effects of Brexit. Again a far greater number. The up and down of GDP will always be a long term measure so who can confirm what will the five year overall growth or loss of the labour term? The immediate costs, reactions of cause and direct effects of specific actions are a different measurement I think you would agree. Maybe that negative growth was caused by a Rishi Sunak policy? Maybe not. Maybe it was Tony Blair. The media will say it’s always labour’s fault but you know that too. Specific policy with planned numbers around actual tax and payments are easily measured. I excluded the £60B I mentioned around the corporation tax effect because although it was an estimate by the OBR as the policy was reversed so could never be measured as a final fact. Agreed. Was making the point that the budget tax grab is now lost (for the time being) I agree with you there. Totally
I have no faith in our politicians of any party.
Labour want to be seen to be putting in a bit of effort in to fixing things but seem to be too nervous or not that sure of what to do first. 14 years to work on a plan FFS. Corbyn caused a distraction to be fair.
Tories are just a mess after years of multiple prime ministers and infighting between too many self interested incompetents.
Reform is mini MAGA who promises are a joke and have no actual policies apart from wishful thinking to please those don’t read more than a headline . They are also great believers in filter down economics which we know doesn’t work for most.
No idea what liberals stand for - my bad
Greens they have a place to reign in corporate greed at the expense of everyone and the planet.
Any one fancy starting the intelligent and practical party?
Have at great New Year everyone.
To answer your last question. No not a chance.
Britain, and most of Europe, is far too polarised. One mans intelligent and practical party is the next mans bunch of stupid muppets.
Left leaning party's tend to be far too ideologically driven and are very rarely, if ever, practical. Only countries with massive wealth, small populations and the will to compromise (Norway for example) can make it work. Guess where they get their wealth from.
Which brings me to the prime example for Britain. Energy policy.
A practical solution to give a huge boost to the economy would be to open up more North Sea oil fields and to start extracting shale gas (which Britain has in abundance) Why buy Norwegian gas when we've got more than enough of our own?
But no, it will likely never happen. The Labour party are ideologically opposed to it and the Tories were so scared of the green lobby they just kicked it into the long grass. Not much practicality there then.
I've got to agree that the Tories are just a mess at the moment (and that is from a life long Tory) I just don't see them improving any time soon.
Reform? They have their place and would be a much stronger opposition than the current Tory party. But I don't see them as a party of government. Maybe a small role in a coalition but that would be about it. Tory/Reform coalition in 2029? I wouldn't rule it out.
Lib Dems? Or Limp Dims as I tend to call them. With you on that, I've no idea either.
Then we come to the Greens. Ideology is pretty much stamped on their foreheads. For practicality think chocolate fireguards and peashooters in a battle. One look at the (now collapsed) German government is all the proof you need.
Oh and don't be too hard on "corporate greed" it may be unpalatable to some but it pays the lions share of the tax take. You would soon miss it if it disappeared abroad.
Norways socialist approach to the oil wealth is what made them realise that for their community the tax take from oil would be ring fenced and kept separate from political interference.
Their fund has strict rules and no party argues them.
To look at oil as your saviour is in my opinion a very backward view.
Saudi Arabia have released various very large investment funds related to green energy. They know oil will have its place but also know it’s not the future.
The U.K. is second only to the US in technical developments such as AI and we should pour money into that as a nation to keep our economy relevant.
To support that tech huge energy is needed and that’s not going to be oil or natural gas. Fortunately the UK is a leader in the field of renewables and needs to keep that lead.
Renewables will give all nations independence from oil so its value ling term is limited.
Add to all this the corporate world is moving way ahead of governments in turning green.
I’m heavily involved in quite a few large scale projects and it’s the global players and investors who are starting to make their commitments so it is coming. The UK cannot afford to be in the past.
I have no issue with corporate greed if it’s greed for success but when it behaves as it does in the US where the federal minimum wage is around $8 and the richest corporations don’t pay any tax then I will call it out. That lions share is getting thinner.
The U.K. does not want to follow the US model of capitalism. It’s long term prognosis is failure. If you destroy the fabric of a society which is the basis for wealth you destroy society as a whole.
I prefer the Scandinavian socialist capitalism even though they too have problems.
As for Reform, the whole concept is a lie so I hope it’s exposed for the culture war approach which has no policies other than emotional exploitation of peoples fears. Those fears fed by repeated misleading information.
I’m off to see in the New Year then wil only glance on here.
It’s been good to chat and may I wish you a very Happy New Year. " | |||
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