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"A University in Austin Texas has started a new course where students will be chosen based on MEI criteria- Meritocracy, Excellence, Intelligence. This is to counter the woke criteria of DEI - diversity, equality and inclusivity - which is used for recruitment by most Universities and many businesses. Which do you think is the right approach?" The first one, MEI, it's the fairest method, absolutely. Mrs x | |||
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"They’re ceasing to use equality anymore.It’s equity now because that gives a higher supply of racism for them Racism supply still is not meeting demand though" Yes, that's the new grift.  | |||
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"Meritocracy for the win. " | |||
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"A University in Austin Texas has started a new course where students will be chosen based on MEI criteria- Meritocracy, Excellence, Intelligence. This is to counter the woke criteria of DEI - diversity, equality and inclusivity - which is used for recruitment by most Universities and many businesses. Which do you think is the right approach?The first one, MEI, it's the fairest method, absolutely. Mrs x" 🎯 | |||
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"I've never applied for a job where the criteria wasn't MEI. Has anyone? It's unlawful to discriminate in recruitment, so I'd be surprised if "most businesses" were doing it." Sorry, "many". | |||
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"I've never applied for a job where the criteria wasn't MEI. Has anyone? It's unlawful to discriminate in recruitment, so I'd be surprised if "most businesses" were doing it." exactly you can't discriminate based on protected characteristics but I always shortlist based on how well a person meets the person specification which is purely MEI | |||
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"A University in Austin Texas has started a new course where students will be chosen based on MEI criteria- Meritocracy, Excellence, Intelligence. This is to counter the woke criteria of DEI - diversity, equality and inclusivity - which is used for recruitment by most Universities and many businesses. Which do you think is the right approach?" ...I wonder will trump use this method...or will he just stick with fox tv hosts,and people who have sexual abuse scandals following them around... | |||
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"I've never applied for a job where the criteria wasn't MEI. Has anyone? It's unlawful to discriminate in recruitment, so I'd be surprised if "most businesses" were doing it." 'Many businesses' | |||
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"I've never applied for a job where the criteria wasn't MEI. Has anyone? It's unlawful to discriminate in recruitment, so I'd be surprised if "most businesses" were doing it." I'm not sure how you would know the internal recruitment criteria of a job you're applying for ? Many businesses and organisations, especially public ones, now employ DEI officers or have DEI principles embedded in their policies. | |||
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"The issue with MEI is that in this country certain universities are highly populated with people from elite private schools and you can have highly intelligent individual who went to a a terrible school and from low income background where opportunity to achieve high academic grades is not the same. " How about using IQ tests rather than formal qualifications ? | |||
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"Walmart have announced they are getting rid of DEI and the associated parts within their firm, Mrs x" Yes this happening a lot in the US now. | |||
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"Is a backlash against the more controversial ideas advocate by woke campaigners? Mrs x" I think the tide has definitely turned in the USA. Hopefully we will catch up in a few years. | |||
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"I've never applied for a job where the criteria wasn't MEI. Has anyone? It's unlawful to discriminate in recruitment, so I'd be surprised if "most businesses" were doing it. I'm not sure how you would know the internal recruitment criteria of a job you're applying for ? Many businesses and organisations, especially public ones, now employ DEI officers or have DEI principles embedded in their policies. " Yes, but that doesn't mean they would break the law in recruiting. I really don't think many companies would do that - do you? Nothing wrong with having DEI principles to improve diversity and inclusion, but that's a different issue. | |||
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"Yes, but that doesn't mean they would break the law in recruiting. I really don't think many companies would do that - do you? Nothing wrong with having DEI principles to improve diversity and inclusion, but that's a different issue." I do think they would, and do, not least because there have been high profile cases showing this happens. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66060490.amp That was a case where discrimination was quite easy to prove but in most cases it will be very difficult to establish why one person got a job or another didn't. I think it's a little naive to imagine a business which puts great emphasis on its DEI principles does not apply those to recruitment. In the USA Universities have openly discriminated on basis of racial quotas for many years, and continue to do so even after the Supreme Court ruled in favour of Asian American students who were being discriminated against ! | |||
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"Many businesses and organisations, especially public ones, now employ DEI officers or have DEI principles embedded in their policies." "Yes, but that doesn't mean they would break the law in recruiting. I really don't think many companies would do that - do you? Nothing wrong with having DEI principles to improve diversity and inclusion, but that's a different issue." The only way to 'improve' diversity is to deliberately recruit from minorities at the expense of the majority. If 30% of your applicants are female, and 30% of your staff are female, that's a balanced hiring policy. DEI will tell you that you should strive to achieve a 50% female level. How can you do that without deliberately choosing female applicants over males? | |||
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"Many businesses and organisations, especially public ones, now employ DEI officers or have DEI principles embedded in their policies. Yes, but that doesn't mean they would break the law in recruiting. I really don't think many companies would do that - do you? Nothing wrong with having DEI principles to improve diversity and inclusion, but that's a different issue. The only way to 'improve' diversity is to deliberately recruit from minorities at the expense of the majority. If 30% of your applicants are female, and 30% of your staff are female, that's a balanced hiring policy. DEI will tell you that you should strive to achieve a 50% female level. How can you do that without deliberately choosing female applicants over males?" Should just be best applicant gets the job, MEI all the way. Mrs x | |||
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"MEI every time is better. DEI focuses solely on racial or lifestyle characteristics." | |||
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"A University in Austin Texas has started a new course where students will be chosen based on MEI criteria- Meritocracy, Excellence, Intelligence. This is to counter the woke criteria of DEI - diversity, equality and inclusivity - which is used for recruitment by most Universities and many businesses. Which do you think is the right approach?" Really? This is such a strange question. Whatever country you reside in you have to abide by legislation. In this country employers have to follow employment laws, they HAVE to be seen promoting "equality", ie NOT NOT to recruit people with protected characteristics (if they're the best person for the job). I know in the real world employers will still recruit on the basis of "sameness" but they risk discrimination and litigation. Also in the real world, big companies who fail to have a certain percentage (pffffttt) of people with protected characteristics, will be pressured into employing such. Now universities, surely intelligence is the top criterium to get in? I have no knowledge 😉 of their legislation. | |||
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"The issue with MEI is that in this country certain universities are highly populated with people from elite private schools and you can have highly intelligent individual who went to a a terrible school and from low income background where opportunity to achieve high academic grades is not the same. How about using IQ tests rather than formal qualifications ?" You want a surgeon with an IQ 140 but not gone to uni for relevant degrees etc?  | |||
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"Many businesses and organisations, especially public ones, now employ DEI officers or have DEI principles embedded in their policies. Yes, but that doesn't mean they would break the law in recruiting. I really don't think many companies would do that - do you? Nothing wrong with having DEI principles to improve diversity and inclusion, but that's a different issue. The only way to 'improve' diversity is to deliberately recruit from minorities at the expense of the majority. If 30% of your applicants are female, and 30% of your staff are female, that's a balanced hiring policy. DEI will tell you that you should strive to achieve a 50% female level. How can you do that without deliberately choosing female applicants over males?Should just be best applicant gets the job, MEI all the way. Mrs x" Good in theory. However, we could be back to employers recruiting males over females of child-bearing years. Obviously advances in paternity leave can help address the issue (I'm not googling to discover latest paternity rights). | |||
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"I've never applied for a job where the criteria wasn't MEI. Has anyone? It's unlawful to discriminate in recruitment, so I'd be surprised if "most businesses" were doing it." Yes. I've outright been told via email, after passing two culling/thresholds stages of the interviewing process, that; "despite your strong application, we are currently focused on hiring more women and other minorities to join our organisation" This happened to me twice, both for the same position, two different companies. Basically being told that I was both A) too male and B) too white to get the job. Hmm... being discriminated against and witheld opportunites based on my sex and skin colour... in only there were words to describe such a thing... | |||
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"I've never applied for a job where the criteria wasn't MEI. Has anyone? It's unlawful to discriminate in recruitment, so I'd be surprised if "most businesses" were doing it. Yes. I've outright been told via email, after passing two culling/thresholds stages of the interviewing process, that; "despite your strong application, we are currently focused on hiring more women and other minorities to join our organisation" This happened to me twice, both for the same position, two different companies. Basically being told that I was both A) too male and B) too white to get the job. Hmm... being discriminated against and witheld opportunites based on my sex and skin colour... in only there were words to describe such a thing... "I can sympathise with your experiences. I have been a victim if this but on the other side. I was given promotion to team leader despite not asking for it and when several others were far better qualified than me and had more experience than me. They told me to my face they need to promote a non white person even though they were more suited to the role. I stupidly let them convince me that I was good enough for the task. I did not last long in the role and made a mess of it. | |||
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"I can sympathise with your experiences. I have been a victim if this but on the other side. I was given promotion to team leader despite not asking for it and when several others were far better qualified than me and had more experience than me. They told me to my face they need to promote a non white person even though they were more suited to the role. I stupidly let them convince me that I was good enough for the task. I did not last long in the role and made a mess of it." You see, to me, THAT is racism. Feel free to correct me, but as a straight white male, I can't imagine anything more condescending than this 'affirmative action'and DEI bullshit. Saying to people like yourself; "hey, we know you can't get this job/promotion/whatever by yourself or on merit alone, so we're gonna throw you a bone/give you a legup!" | |||
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"I can sympathise with your experiences. I have been a victim if this but on the other side. I was given promotion to team leader despite not asking for it and when several others were far better qualified than me and had more experience than me. They told me to my face they need to promote a non white person even though they were more suited to the role. I stupidly let them convince me that I was good enough for the task. I did not last long in the role and made a mess of it. You see, to me, THAT is racism. Feel free to correct me, but as a straight white male, I can't imagine anything more condescending than this 'affirmative action'and DEI bullshit. Saying to people like yourself; "hey, we know you can't get this job/promotion/whatever by yourself or on merit alone, so we're gonna throw you a bone/give you a legup!" "Unfortunately you are completely correct it was racism dressed up as supporting diversity and ticking boxes. Thankfully the right person eventually got the job but only after it cost the company money and it was a bad experience for me. | |||
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"As a non-white person, I find the term "diversity hire" outright insulting. It gives impostor syndrome to people. I would prefer to be not hired by a company rather than being hired just because they wanted to hit a diversity target. The whole idea that every job type must have an ethnicity/sex/sexuality target based on their population share is a ridiculous attempt to treat humans like robots devoid of any differences. If we compare to population, black people are overrepresented in sports. Asians overrepresented in tech. Women overrepresented in HR roles. Should we try to stop people in these categories from doing what they love just because some lefties decided that their representation must match their share in the population? " i most certainly agree there should be more females on construction sites expecially in a pair of snickers and hard hat 😍 | |||
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"As a non-white person, I find the term "diversity hire" outright insulting." Exactly. The derision is the outcome of the policy. | |||
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"As a non-white person, I find the term "diversity hire" outright insulting. Exactly. The derision is the outcome of the policy." I was surprised how frequently this term was used among the recruiters. | |||
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"As a non-white person, I find the term "diversity hire" outright insulting. Exactly. The derision is the outcome of the policy. I was surprised how frequently this term was used among the recruiters." I think people who have been fortunate not to experience this would be astonished at the grip which DEI now has on huge parts of the public and private sectors. | |||
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"As a non-white person, I find the term "diversity hire" outright insulting. Exactly. The derision is the outcome of the policy. I was surprised how frequently this term was used among the recruiters. I think people who have been fortunate not to experience this would be astonished at the grip which DEI now has on huge parts of the public and private sectors." Yeah everyone says that DEI doesn't mean showing bias towards certain groups because it's illegal and all that. But in practice, that's exactly what happens. But tide is turning in the US. DEI is getting hit pretty hard as people have started litigating against companies who do it. Thanks to the US supreme court judgement against affirmative action by Harvard which set the foundation for this. Companies are silently dropping the idea of DEI. Hopefully it catches on here too. | |||
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"As a non-white person, I find the term "diversity hire" outright insulting. It gives impostor syndrome to people. I would prefer to be not hired by a company rather than being hired just because they wanted to hit a diversity target. The whole idea that every job type must have an ethnicity/sex/sexuality target based on their population share is a ridiculous attempt to treat humans like robots devoid of any differences. If we compare to population, black people are overrepresented in sports. Asians overrepresented in tech. Women overrepresented in HR roles. Should we try to stop people in these categories from doing what they love just because some lefties decided that their representation must match their share in the population? i most certainly agree there should be more females on construction sites expecially in a pair of snickers and hard hat 😍" Snickers come in pairs?  | |||
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"As a non-white person, I find the term "diversity hire" outright insulting. Exactly. The derision is the outcome of the policy. I was surprised how frequently this term was used among the recruiters. I think people who have been fortunate not to experience this would be astonished at the grip which DEI now has on huge parts of the public and private sectors. Yeah everyone says that DEI doesn't mean showing bias towards certain groups because it's illegal and all that. But in practice, that's exactly what happens. But tide is turning in the US. DEI is getting hit pretty hard as people have started litigating against companies who do it. Thanks to the US supreme court judgement against affirmative action by Harvard which set the foundation for this. Companies are silently dropping the idea of DEI. Hopefully it catches on here too." Yes the Harvard judgement really opened my eyes to this issue- I couldn't believe the discrimination was so blatant! Then once you start looking you realise how widespread it is. | |||
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"As a non-white person, I find the term "diversity hire" outright insulting. ." Agreed. But I've literally never heard that phrase used in the UK. | |||
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"Yes, but that doesn't mean they would break the law in recruiting. I really don't think many companies would do that - do you? Nothing wrong with having DEI principles to improve diversity and inclusion, but that's a different issue. I do think they would, and do, not least because there have been high profile cases showing this happens. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66060490.amp That was a case where discrimination was quite easy to prove but in most cases it will be very difficult to establish why one person got a job or another didn't. I think it's a little naive to imagine a business which puts great emphasis on its DEI principles does not apply those to recruitment. In the USA Universities have openly discriminated on basis of racial quotas for many years, and continue to do so even after the Supreme Court ruled in favour of Asian American students who were being discriminated against !" Yeah, I'm familiar with that case, and the RAF had to pay compensation to the men who it inadvertently discriminated against, so stupid all round. Positive action - where you might choose a woman over a man if they are EQUALLY qualified in all other respects is legal. I don't see why that's a bad thing. Positive discrimination is unlawful, and not a good thing. But the aim to increase the diversity of a workforce is not bad in itself. There's loads of evidence that a diverse workforce is beneficial for a business, which is why companies do it. I still don't see many companies actively wanting to break the law, but you and I can disagree on that. | |||
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"As a non-white person, I find the term "diversity hire" outright insulting. . Agreed. But I've literally never heard that phrase used in the UK." "Diversity candidate" and "diversity hire" are terms used by recruiters frequently where I work. | |||
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"As a non-white person, I find the term "diversity hire" outright insulting. Exactly. The derision is the outcome of the policy. I was surprised how frequently this term was used among the recruiters. I think people who have been fortunate not to experience this would be astonished at the grip which DEI now has on huge parts of the public and private sectors. Yeah everyone says that DEI doesn't mean showing bias towards certain groups because it's illegal and all that. But in practice, that's exactly what happens. But tide is turning in the US. DEI is getting hit pretty hard as people have started litigating against companies who do it. Thanks to the US supreme court judgement against affirmative action by Harvard which set the foundation for this. Companies are silently dropping the idea of DEI. Hopefully it catches on here too." DEI yes this has affected my movie viewing and DEI has a foot in gaming as well. Luckly movie goers and gamers have long since boycotted this idea, and we are now seeing Hollywood and gaming begin to steer away from DEI so hopefully we can get back to normality. | |||
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"If anyone fancies it you can probably get 'The Tyranny of the meritocracy'. It boils down to if you think that a person who's parents grew up together, in great jobs, went to a private school, and was able to pay for extra curricular tuition and sport has the same chance (on average) as some kid born in the middle of Baltimore (or Bradford I guess for the UK) then I have some magic beans to sell you. " Absolutely 100%. That's why smart parents from any background kill themselves to give their kids opportunities. That kid from Baltimore needs their parents to work twice as hard to even stand a chance at the already established. In the USA, it's admired. In the UK, it's seen as unfair. Why should a kid whose parents spent their money on their education instead of other things get better outcomes? The tagline for the book is "Democratising higher education in America", which suggests that people should collectively rule higher education in (North?) America. Sounds scary. | |||
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" Luckly movie goers and gamers have long since boycotted this idea, and we are now seeing Hollywood and gaming begin to steer away from DEI so hopefully we can get back to normality." Once upon a time, cultured people would watch foreign films. Indian people in Indian films. African people in African films. Chinese people in Chinese films. What's happened is that laziness had crept in, so people want to be able to watch all cultures in British and American films. It's like saying that other cultures just can't do films properly, and you need British/American people to do it for them. | |||
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" Luckly movie goers and gamers have long since boycotted this idea, and we are now seeing Hollywood and gaming begin to steer away from DEI so hopefully we can get back to normality. Once upon a time, cultured people would watch foreign films. Indian people in Indian films. African people in African films. Chinese people in Chinese films. What's happened is that laziness had crept in, so people want to be able to watch all cultures in British and American films. It's like saying that other cultures just can't do films properly, and you need British/American people to do it for them. " they just can’t do films as good tho it’s just a fact lol | |||
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" Luckly movie goers and gamers have long since boycotted this idea, and we are now seeing Hollywood and gaming begin to steer away from DEI so hopefully we can get back to normality. Once upon a time, cultured people would watch foreign films. Indian people in Indian films. African people in African films. Chinese people in Chinese films. What's happened is that laziness had crept in, so people want to be able to watch all cultures in British and American films. It's like saying that other cultures just can't do films properly, and you need British/American people to do it for them. they just can’t do films as good tho it’s just a fact lol" Not true... | |||
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" Luckly movie goers and gamers have long since boycotted this idea, and we are now seeing Hollywood and gaming begin to steer away from DEI so hopefully we can get back to normality. Once upon a time, cultured people would watch foreign films. Indian people in Indian films. African people in African films. Chinese people in Chinese films. What's happened is that laziness had crept in, so people want to be able to watch all cultures in British and American films. It's like saying that other cultures just can't do films properly, and you need British/American people to do it for them. they just can’t do films as good tho it’s just a fact lol Not true..." DEI has caused Hollywood to release films that have flopped lightyear, the marvels the last Star Wars films, the only hit Hollywood has is dead pool no DEI in that movie. As for foreign films I have watched many Hollywood films that I later discover were French, Swedish, German and Japanese (take the Ring series of films Japanese but remade by Hollywood). and the Japanese versions are the best. | |||
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"A University in Austin Texas has started a new course where students will be chosen based on MEI criteria- Meritocracy, Excellence, Intelligence. This is to counter the woke criteria of DEI - diversity, equality and inclusivity - which is used for recruitment by most Universities and many businesses. Which do you think is the right approach?" As a non white person I am all up for MEI - because that would create a culture of hard work, and rewards..and my community believes in it. Fast forward 5 yrs, you would see people with values , character and colourblind (no skin or race fetish when hiring people). Additionally, we don’t need people calling themselves QoS, spades wife, BBC slut, ok boardrooms too, so effectively Get what is best not what is just. Charli. Kirk, Vivek Ramaswamy, Elon musk with Kash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard are going to fix this once Trump is in the office. DOGE. UK will have to follow the same steps to sustain in this competitive world. | |||
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"MI5 has banned white British people from applying for its internships, citing the need for better 'representation'. Seems DEI is still thriving among UK state institutions, meritocracy not so much." There you go again stoking it up and not giving the full facts. | |||
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"MI5 has banned white British people from applying for its internships, citing the need for better 'representation'. Seems DEI is still thriving among UK state institutions, meritocracy not so much. There you go again stoking it up and not giving the full facts. " What are the full facts here? | |||
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"All positions in all industries and services should be offered to the best candidates, irrespective of race, colour, religion , sex, gender or religious orientation. The best people for a job are the best people, full stop, and without prejudice…" Unfortunately historically that hasn’t always been the case. | |||
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"MI5 has banned white British people from applying for its internships, citing the need for better 'representation'. Seems DEI is still thriving among UK state institutions, meritocracy not so much. There you go again stoking it up and not giving the full facts. What are the full facts here?" The MI5 advert for interns explicitly excludes white British applicants, its easy to find online. | |||
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"MI5 has banned white British people from applying for its internships, citing the need for better 'representation'. Seems DEI is still thriving among UK state institutions, meritocracy not so much. There you go again stoking it up and not giving the full facts. What are the full facts here? The MI5 advert for interns explicitly excludes white British applicants, its easy to find online." I seen one for a summer program. Seemed pretty clear but wondered if the other poster has more facts as they argue its not the full story. | |||
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"MI5 has banned white British people from applying for its internships, citing the need for better 'representation'. Seems DEI is still thriving among UK state institutions, meritocracy not so much. There you go again stoking it up and not giving the full facts. What are the full facts here? The MI5 advert for interns explicitly excludes white British applicants, its easy to find online. I seen one for a summer program. Seemed pretty clear but wondered if the other poster has more facts as they argue its not the full story. " Me too, seemed clear cut but happy to hear more details. | |||
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"MI5 has banned white British people from applying for its internships, citing the need for better 'representation'. Seems DEI is still thriving among UK state institutions, meritocracy not so much. There you go again stoking it up and not giving the full facts. What are the full facts here? The MI5 advert for interns explicitly excludes white British applicants, its easy to find online." I suppose if you’re trying to gain intelligence from within a certain ethnic community recruiting someone from the outside of that community might be a problem. | |||
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"I think a lot of people still don't understand that the 2010 Equality Act does allow for legal positive discrimination in some situations. DEI is part of employment legislation now." There is no such thing as positive discrimination, it’s an oxymoron! | |||
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"MI5 has banned white British people from applying for its internships, citing the need for better 'representation'. Seems DEI is still thriving among UK state institutions, meritocracy not so much. There you go again stoking it up and not giving the full facts. What are the full facts here? The MI5 advert for interns explicitly excludes white British applicants, its easy to find online. I suppose if you’re trying to gain intelligence from within a certain ethnic community recruiting someone from the outside of that community might be a problem." Yes I can see that argument but aren't we often told that the far right are one of our biggest security risks ? | |||
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"The choice between these two models isn't binary. Anyone who thinks people are handed jobs purely by virtue of a protected characteristic they have is either misinformed or being disingenuous to try and provoke an argument. It's just not how it works. In reality, both are good and address different issues. Most companies implement both, even if the initiatives are called something different." I don't understand how two contradictory policies can be implemented together ? | |||
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"MI5 has banned white British people from applying for its internships, citing the need for better 'representation'. Seems DEI is still thriving among UK state institutions, meritocracy not so much. There you go again stoking it up and not giving the full facts. What are the full facts here? The MI5 advert for interns explicitly excludes white British applicants, its easy to find online. I suppose if you’re trying to gain intelligence from within a certain ethnic community recruiting someone from the outside of that community might be a problem. Yes I can see that argument but aren't we often told that the far right are one of our biggest security risks ?" As well as that point I would also say that non whites are not all the same community. From what has been mentioned in this thread only British white people are banned. If your in need of officers from specific backgrounds then just banning British whites is not helping much | |||
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"MI5 has banned white British people from applying for its internships, citing the need for better 'representation'. Seems DEI is still thriving among UK state institutions, meritocracy not so much. There you go again stoking it up and not giving the full facts. What are the full facts here? The MI5 advert for interns explicitly excludes white British applicants, its easy to find online. I suppose if you’re trying to gain intelligence from within a certain ethnic community recruiting someone from the outside of that community might be a problem. Yes I can see that argument but aren't we often told that the far right are one of our biggest security risks ? As well as that point I would also say that non whites are not all the same community. From what has been mentioned in this thread only British white people are banned. If your in need of officers from specific backgrounds then just banning British whites is not helping much" Exactly! | |||
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"A University in Austin Texas has started a new course where students will be chosen based on MEI criteria- Meritocracy, Excellence, Intelligence. This is to counter the woke criteria of DEI - diversity, equality and inclusivity - which is used for recruitment by most Universities and many businesses. Which do you think is the right approach?" MEI. Always. It's the only way to keep standard high. DEI is race to the bottom. | |||
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" From what I understand the first year students didn’t have to pay anything but the place seems to be a waste of time run by a bunch of cranks" To be fair that describes most Universities in the UK ! | |||
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