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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. " that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. " You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. " I think she was born with female presenting genetalia but has xy chromosones and other biological markers more associated with males. Coming from Algeria it's doubtful she would have grown up as a girl if she presented as a male. That's an uneducated assumption tho. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman?" To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years " what's your definition? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? " English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? " Usually what's on the birth certificate | |||
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"What must the five women boxers who have beaten Khelif be like?" Whatever they are like I won’t argue with them  | |||
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"Abandoned the match when the bloke broke her nose. I’m guessing a woman is going to have to get killed by a man in one of these sports before the authorities stop playing politics with women’s’ careers and lives." Do you know what, I think you're a troll. And I bite far too often. I'll leave you to it. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. " Cis means natural born. It's used in gender cases. I thought Imane might be a transwoman, but then she'd be in fear for her life. She has the genitalia of a woman. There'd be no reason to suspect she was not female as DSD is extremely rare: XY chromosomes. Her DNA is different to how her body presents itself. Apparently her testosterone levels has caused issues in the past and banned her from a match. | |||
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"Men beating up women for your entertainment and the people who call it out are the villains… Someone make this make sense 🤷♂️" Bless | |||
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"First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman?" "To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years" "what's your definition?" "English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people." That's a crap definition. It just leads people to ask "OK, so what's a female?". | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman?" We start of with genitalia and she's a woman. With conditions like DSD, perhaps we need to identify biological sex at birth through chromosomes. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. " Then she qualifies. | |||
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"English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people." "Then she qualifies." Only after we've checked the dictionary to see how it defines 'female'. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. " But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs x | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs x" she qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. " I'm nor saying she's trans, I said that in my first post. However if she has a condition that elevates her testosterone to levels in excess of what's permissible then she should be banned, just as if someone took testosterone as an PED. It seems unfair to single this athlete out but there are lots of medical conditions that would prevent someone able to compete in boxing, for the safety of themselves and others. Unfortunately this is a rare one but it's still significant enough to prevent her from competing. Mrs x | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs x" The criteria in Paris is what it states on the passport. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs x" She has issues with testosterone because she has XY chromosomes. Her dna is male, her body is female. I probably didn't explain it fully. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. I'm nor saying she's trans, I said that in my first post. However if she has a condition that elevates her testosterone to levels in excess of what's permissible then she should be banned, just as if someone took testosterone as an PED. It seems unfair to single this athlete out but there are lots of medical conditions that would prevent someone able to compete in boxing, for the safety of themselves and others. Unfortunately this is a rare one but it's still significant enough to prevent her from competing. Mrs x" Would you ban people with gigantism from playing basketball? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. " Exactly. And do they measure testosterone for male boxing weights? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. " They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR " They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight?" | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight?" Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales?" It’s boxing not domestic violence, they are both highly trained women. | |||
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"She's not trans, she's a woman but she has xy chromosomes and therefore she has more testosterone which means more muscle mass as opposed to her opponent who has xx chromosomes.. There's clearly an issue along with many areas of sport and trans etc that the governing bodies are still trying to understand like many of us in this changing world and it's for those bodies to sort out whether any differences present an advantage or indeed a disadvantage for those involved.. It can't be the case that such bodies are reading from separate song sheets and have differing standards etc .. " Issue being that we are told human construct can be anything. With a starting point so ambiguous it will allow for exploitation, as we are seeing. Make the rules fluid, create confusion. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales? It’s boxing not domestic violence, they are both highly trained women." Can you recognise any shortcomings? | |||
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"She's not trans, she's a woman but she has xy chromosomes and therefore she has more testosterone which means more muscle mass as opposed to her opponent who has xx chromosomes.. There's clearly an issue along with many areas of sport and trans etc that the governing bodies are still trying to understand like many of us in this changing world and it's for those bodies to sort out whether any differences present an advantage or indeed a disadvantage for those involved.. It can't be the case that such bodies are reading from separate song sheets and have differing standards etc .. Issue being that we are told human construct can be anything. With a starting point so ambiguous it will allow for exploitation, as we are seeing. Make the rules fluid, create confusion." what would the hard and fast rules be ? | |||
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"She's not trans, she's a woman but she has xy chromosomes and therefore she has more testosterone which means more muscle mass as opposed to her opponent who has xx chromosomes.. There's clearly an issue along with many areas of sport and trans etc that the governing bodies are still trying to understand like many of us in this changing world and it's for those bodies to sort out whether any differences present an advantage or indeed a disadvantage for those involved.. It can't be the case that such bodies are reading from separate song sheets and have differing standards etc .. Issue being that we are told human construct can be anything. With a starting point so ambiguous it will allow for exploitation, as we are seeing. Make the rules fluid, create confusion.what would the hard and fast rules be ?" Can I ask you what you might consider hard and fast rules? If you can’t answer that, is it because you are not qualified, or because you don’t want to offend? For me it is both, but I can still see what the issue is. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales? It’s boxing not domestic violence, they are both highly trained women. Can you recognise any shortcomings?" No, they are both highly trained female boxers who are in the same weight class. No one was complaining about Khelif when she was getting beat by numerous opponents, so why now? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales? It’s boxing not domestic violence, they are both highly trained women. Can you recognise any shortcomings? No, they are both highly trained female boxers who are in the same weight class. No one was complaining about Khelif when she was getting beat by numerous opponents, so why now?" Were both boxers tested before hand? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales? It’s boxing not domestic violence, they are both highly trained women. Can you recognise any shortcomings? No, they are both highly trained female boxers who are in the same weight class. No one was complaining about Khelif when she was getting beat by numerous opponents, so why now?" Are you pinning everything on both being equal and no advantage is to be had? That would be putting your head on the block surely? Unless you personally know that case? | |||
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"She's not trans, she's a woman but she has xy chromosomes and therefore she has more testosterone which means more muscle mass as opposed to her opponent who has xx chromosomes.. There's clearly an issue along with many areas of sport and trans etc that the governing bodies are still trying to understand like many of us in this changing world and it's for those bodies to sort out whether any differences present an advantage or indeed a disadvantage for those involved.. It can't be the case that such bodies are reading from separate song sheets and have differing standards etc .. Issue being that we are told human construct can be anything. With a starting point so ambiguous it will allow for exploitation, as we are seeing. Make the rules fluid, create confusion.what would the hard and fast rules be ? Can I ask you what you might consider hard and fast rules? If you can’t answer that, is it because you are not qualified, or because you don’t want to offend? For me it is both, but I can still see what the issue is." in sport I'm supportive of setting additional criteria above and beyond gender or sex. I'm not sure what fluid rule is being exploited here. So interested on what it is, and how it can be resolved. | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed." Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight?" Height is not a characteristic banned in boxing. Elevated testosterone I'd. It's simple. Mrs x | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. Exactly. And do they measure testosterone for male boxing weights? " Do you mean test for testosterone levels? If that's your question yes they do, amongst other things. Mrs x | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs x The criteria in Paris is what it states on the passport." OK but all other females have also to be under a certain level for a whole range of PEDs. Unfortunately she has raised testosterone levels and they already know this without testing her. This means to create a level playing field the other female boxers would have to dope themselves with testosterone. However if they chose to do this and a subsequent drug test confirmed this they would be disqualified. A blatantly unfair situation. Mrs x | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs x The criteria in Paris is what it states on the passport. OK but all other females have also to be under a certain level for a whole range of PEDs. Unfortunately she has raised testosterone levels and they already know this without testing her. This means to create a level playing field the other female boxers would have to dope themselves with testosterone. However if they chose to do this and a subsequent drug test confirmed this they would be disqualified. A blatantly unfair situation. Mrs x" Isn't it more critical what was in her system during puberty, and whether her body developed more along male or female lines? (#NotAnExpert) | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? " There have been open categories in other sports' events I believe. I think it will take time, but it seems to be the only fair option. Not everyone embraces "fair" though  | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs x The criteria in Paris is what it states on the passport. OK but all other females have also to be under a certain level for a whole range of PEDs. Unfortunately she has raised testosterone levels and they already know this without testing her. This means to create a level playing field the other female boxers would have to dope themselves with testosterone. However if they chose to do this and a subsequent drug test confirmed this they would be disqualified. A blatantly unfair situation. Mrs x Isn't it more critical what was in her system during puberty, and whether her body developed more along male or female lines? (#NotAnExpert)" She has elevated levels now, that's why she recieved the previous ban. It's sad because she has a rare condition but she has a massive advantage, which if her competitors chose to remedy by doping themselves to her level they would be disqualified if found out in a drug test. So she can have testosterone at an illegal level whilst her competitors can't. The IOC has got it wrong here and could have opened a whole can of world. Mrs x | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? " born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation?" From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales? It’s boxing not domestic violence, they are both highly trained women. Can you recognise any shortcomings? No, they are both highly trained female boxers who are in the same weight class. No one was complaining about Khelif when she was getting beat by numerous opponents, so why now? Are you pinning everything on both being equal and no advantage is to be had? That would be putting your head on the block surely? Unless you personally know that case? " I’m not putting my head on the block because I’m not the person who sets the eligibility rules for the Olympics, and I’m not arrogant enough to think I know better than them. What about the boxers who have beaten Imane, did they have an advantage, or were they just better boxers? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs x The criteria in Paris is what it states on the passport. OK but all other females have also to be under a certain level for a whole range of PEDs. Unfortunately she has raised testosterone levels and they already know this without testing her. This means to create a level playing field the other female boxers would have to dope themselves with testosterone. However if they chose to do this and a subsequent drug test confirmed this they would be disqualified. A blatantly unfair situation. Mrs x" What about the numerous female boxers who have beaten Imane, do they have raised testosterone levels or are they just better boxers? | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that?" That other women managed to beat Khelif, so what did they have that Carini doesn’t, talent, grit? | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that? That other women managed to beat Khelif, so what did they have that Carini doesn’t, talent, grit?" You've said it yourself. They may have been better boxers. The issue is not one of skill, it's power. This woman will have a significant advantage in power. It doesn't necessarily equate to guaranteeing her a win but she is much more capable of landing a devastating blow. Her power could seriously hurt her opponents in life threatening ways. This power is also not available to her opponents unless they take the steps to dope themselves illegally and run the risk of getting caught and being disqualified. Sport should be played on a level field and unfortunately for this gmwoman and her medical condition it's not. Mrs x | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that? That other women managed to beat Khelif, so what did they have that Carini doesn’t, talent, grit?You've said it yourself. They may have been better boxers. The issue is not one of skill, it's power. This woman will have a significant advantage in power. It doesn't necessarily equate to guaranteeing her a win but she is much more capable of landing a devastating blow. Her power could seriously hurt her opponents in life threatening ways. This power is also not available to her opponents unless they take the steps to dope themselves illegally and run the risk of getting caught and being disqualified. Sport should be played on a level field and unfortunately for this gmwoman and her medical condition it's not. Mrs x" How much more power does Khelif have? De es she have more power than every other woman she faces in the ring? | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that? That other women managed to beat Khelif, so what did they have that Carini doesn’t, talent, grit?You've said it yourself. They may have been better boxers. The issue is not one of skill, it's power. This woman will have a significant advantage in power. It doesn't necessarily equate to guaranteeing her a win but she is much more capable of landing a devastating blow. Her power could seriously hurt her opponents in life threatening ways. This power is also not available to her opponents unless they take the steps to dope themselves illegally and run the risk of getting caught and being disqualified. Sport should be played on a level field and unfortunately for this gmwoman and her medical condition it's not. Mrs x How much more power does Khelif have? De es she have more power than every other woman she faces in the ring?" She has a condition called DSD. So I think and this is a very rough definition but she is physically a female but her dna is male. That's what's causing the elevated testosterone. Taking estosterone will increase a person power tremendously. That's why athletes are prepared to cheat to use it, otherwise it would be pointless. So yes she will be significantly more powerful than her competitors. Mrs x | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales? It’s boxing not domestic violence, they are both highly trained women. Can you recognise any shortcomings? No, they are both highly trained female boxers who are in the same weight class. No one was complaining about Khelif when she was getting beat by numerous opponents, so why now? Are you pinning everything on both being equal and no advantage is to be had? That would be putting your head on the block surely? Unless you personally know that case? I’m not putting my head on the block because I’m not the person who sets the eligibility rules for the Olympics, and I’m not arrogant enough to think I know better than them. What about the boxers who have beaten Imane, did they have an advantage, or were they just better boxers?" Boxing is a technical sport of skill and power, if she has been beaten many times before by other women it would indicate she hasn't got a lot of technical skill and relies on the enhanced power advantage to take a win. If she did not have the power advantage she would probably never win. | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that? That other women managed to beat Khelif, so what did they have that Carini doesn’t, talent, grit?You've said it yourself. They may have been better boxers. The issue is not one of skill, it's power. This woman will have a significant advantage in power. It doesn't necessarily equate to guaranteeing her a win but she is much more capable of landing a devastating blow. Her power could seriously hurt her opponents in life threatening ways. This power is also not available to her opponents unless they take the steps to dope themselves illegally and run the risk of getting caught and being disqualified. Sport should be played on a level field and unfortunately for this gmwoman and her medical condition it's not. Mrs x How much more power does Khelif have? De es she have more power than every other woman she faces in the ring?She has a condition called DSD. So I think and this is a very rough definition but she is physically a female but her dna is male. That's what's causing the elevated testosterone. Taking estosterone will increase a person power tremendously. That's why athletes are prepared to cheat to use it, otherwise it would be pointless. So yes she will be significantly more powerful than her competitors. Mrs x" So the mere act of taking testosterone increases a person’s power tremendously? Does the amount matter? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales? It’s boxing not domestic violence, they are both highly trained women. Can you recognise any shortcomings? No, they are both highly trained female boxers who are in the same weight class. No one was complaining about Khelif when she was getting beat by numerous opponents, so why now? Are you pinning everything on both being equal and no advantage is to be had? That would be putting your head on the block surely? Unless you personally know that case? I’m not putting my head on the block because I’m not the person who sets the eligibility rules for the Olympics, and I’m not arrogant enough to think I know better than them. What about the boxers who have beaten Imane, did they have an advantage, or were they just better boxers? Boxing is a technical sport of skill and power, if she has been beaten many times before by other women it would indicate she hasn't got a lot of technical skill and relies on the enhanced power advantage to take a win. If she did not have the power advantage she would probably never win." You’re saying that if she didn’t have the power advantage she would never win? Do you amateur boxing experience or is that just an assumption on your part? | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that? That other women managed to beat Khelif, so what did they have that Carini doesn’t, talent, grit?You've said it yourself. They may have been better boxers. The issue is not one of skill, it's power. This woman will have a significant advantage in power. It doesn't necessarily equate to guaranteeing her a win but she is much more capable of landing a devastating blow. Her power could seriously hurt her opponents in life threatening ways. This power is also not available to her opponents unless they take the steps to dope themselves illegally and run the risk of getting caught and being disqualified. Sport should be played on a level field and unfortunately for this gmwoman and her medical condition it's not. Mrs x How much more power does Khelif have? De es she have more power than every other woman she faces in the ring?" Up to 200% more. But there’s more to boxing than knocking people out…much like there’s more to basketball than being tall. Boxing by it’s nature is already an inherently dangerous sport, what you’re advocating for is allowing it to become more dangerous | |||
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"It's a issue for the authorities and because of the sport it's raised issues about the possible advantage she has (which is another debate given she's been bettered nine times).. In all sports people are born with natural advantages so to ban her because of that opens a minefield that sport does not need or will enter.. I'm torn on this, yes she could hurt another woman (didn't happen yesterday, and was the reaction by her opponent something else) but equally given her losses another woman can hurt her too.." Plenty of sports have banned men from competing against women. If it’s not an issue I suggest that we just dump the separate categories for men and women in all sports and see how it pans out. | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that? That other women managed to beat Khelif, so what did they have that Carini doesn’t, talent, grit?You've said it yourself. They may have been better boxers. The issue is not one of skill, it's power. This woman will have a significant advantage in power. It doesn't necessarily equate to guaranteeing her a win but she is much more capable of landing a devastating blow. Her power could seriously hurt her opponents in life threatening ways. This power is also not available to her opponents unless they take the steps to dope themselves illegally and run the risk of getting caught and being disqualified. Sport should be played on a level field and unfortunately for this gmwoman and her medical condition it's not. Mrs x How much more power does Khelif have? De es she have more power than every other woman she faces in the ring? Up to 200% more. But there’s more to boxing than knocking people out…much like there’s more to basketball than being tall. Boxing by it’s nature is already an inherently dangerous sport, what you’re advocating for is allowing it to become more dangerous " That doesn’t answer my question. | |||
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"It's a issue for the authorities and because of the sport it's raised issues about the possible advantage she has (which is another debate given she's been bettered nine times).. In all sports people are born with natural advantages so to ban her because of that opens a minefield that sport does not need or will enter.. I'm torn on this, yes she could hurt another woman (didn't happen yesterday, and was the reaction by her opponent something else) but equally given her losses another woman can hurt her too.. Plenty of sports have banned men from competing against women. If it’s not an issue I suggest that we just dump the separate categories for men and women in all sports and see how it pans out." This is a case of two women fighting though, there are no men involved. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales?" What a weird question. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. Exactly. And do they measure testosterone for male boxing weights? Do you mean test for testosterone levels? If that's your question yes they do, amongst other things. Mrs x" I mean to categorise weights/class. | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that? That other women managed to beat Khelif, so what did they have that Carini doesn’t, talent, grit?You've said it yourself. They may have been better boxers. The issue is not one of skill, it's power. This woman will have a significant advantage in power. It doesn't necessarily equate to guaranteeing her a win but she is much more capable of landing a devastating blow. Her power could seriously hurt her opponents in life threatening ways. This power is also not available to her opponents unless they take the steps to dope themselves illegally and run the risk of getting caught and being disqualified. Sport should be played on a level field and unfortunately for this gmwoman and her medical condition it's not. Mrs x How much more power does Khelif have? De es she have more power than every other woman she faces in the ring? Up to 200% more. But there’s more to boxing than knocking people out…much like there’s more to basketball than being tall. Boxing by it’s nature is already an inherently dangerous sport, what you’re advocating for is allowing it to become more dangerous " Where does the figure of 200% come from? From what I read the IBA didn't release their findings and nor should they.. | |||
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"It's a issue for the authorities and because of the sport it's raised issues about the possible advantage she has (which is another debate given she's been bettered nine times).. In all sports people are born with natural advantages so to ban her because of that opens a minefield that sport does not need or will enter.. I'm torn on this, yes she could hurt another woman (didn't happen yesterday, and was the reaction by her opponent something else) but equally given her losses another woman can hurt her too.. Plenty of sports have banned men from competing against women. If it’s not an issue I suggest that we just dump the separate categories for men and women in all sports and see how it pans out." I think it's an issue in that there are different bodies which look to have different criteria etc.. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales? It’s boxing not domestic violence, they are both highly trained women. Can you recognise any shortcomings? No, they are both highly trained female boxers who are in the same weight class. No one was complaining about Khelif when she was getting beat by numerous opponents, so why now? Are you pinning everything on both being equal and no advantage is to be had? That would be putting your head on the block surely? Unless you personally know that case? I’m not putting my head on the block because I’m not the person who sets the eligibility rules for the Olympics, and I’m not arrogant enough to think I know better than them. What about the boxers who have beaten Imane, did they have an advantage, or were they just better boxers? Boxing is a technical sport of skill and power, if she has been beaten many times before by other women it would indicate she hasn't got a lot of technical skill and relies on the enhanced power advantage to take a win. If she did not have the power advantage she would probably never win. You’re saying that if she didn’t have the power advantage she would never win? Do you amateur boxing experience or is that just an assumption on your part?" If I say yes I do have experience in boxing would that change you opinion? Or is the question arbitrary in nature? | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs x The criteria in Paris is what it states on the passport. OK but all other females have also to be under a certain level for a whole range of PEDs. Unfortunately she has raised testosterone levels and they already know this without testing her. This means to create a level playing field the other female boxers would have to dope themselves with testosterone. However if they chose to do this and a subsequent drug test confirmed this they would be disqualified. A blatantly unfair situation. Mrs x Isn't it more critical what was in her system during puberty, and whether her body developed more along male or female lines? (#NotAnExpert)" DSD is a disorder during foetal development. XY should be enough for all cells to create a male foetus, but we know things go wrong. Is XY enough to determine correct hormonal levels? Perhaps the genitalia isn't the only consequence of DSD, and the pituitary gland is affected. I have read there are 40(+) cases of DSD and many carry malformed mixed gentalia (intersex). | |||
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"She was disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. Why is there such a difference between the olympics and World championship competitions in terms of eligibility? " Perhaps the Olympics don't want transwomen to be excluded. The reason I say that is their criteria of being a woman is dependent on what a passport states. In this country the birth certificate can be changed (something I disagree with), and a birth certificate is needed for passport. | |||
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"Cis woman with DSD in the news as her italian boxing opponent abandons the match. JKR lambasting Khelif and the "misogynistic " ran sport. DSD is a developmental issue of sexual organs and results in opposition to presenting chromosomes. that is a lot for this little brain to unpack, can I ask some stupid questions? What is a Cis woman, is that a female? what is DSD and does this person have the testosterone and physical strength and advantages of a male? You may think I'm leading the questions, I'm not, I'm giving up on thinking I know the obvious. You started off with the bar too high. First question for the idiots that put females in the same ring as males should be....what is a woman? To be fair the now Labour government have been struggling with that one for years what's your definition? English dictionary definition is...adult female human. I'll go with that. Controversial as it may seem to some people. Then she qualifies. But she doesn't. She has a condition that means her testosterone is of an elevated level, higher than is allowed for female athletes. She also has some issues surrounding XY chromosomes. So no she shouldn't be allowed to compete. Mrs xshe qualifies as a women, whether that is sufficient to be allowed to compete is another question. But this isn't a trans debate. They have both been disqualified for one reason or another. Look it up yourselves. I'm not women's right campaigner but this is getting ridiculous. The Italian boxer was dwarfed by her opponent. IT'S NOT FAIR They are in the same weight class (welterweight) and there is only a 6cm height difference. The size difference between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua is larger, would you not allow them to fight? Hmm so if plod turn up at a domestic violence, they should do so with a tape measure and scales? It’s boxing not domestic violence, they are both highly trained women. Can you recognise any shortcomings? No, they are both highly trained female boxers who are in the same weight class. No one was complaining about Khelif when she was getting beat by numerous opponents, so why now? Are you pinning everything on both being equal and no advantage is to be had? That would be putting your head on the block surely? Unless you personally know that case? I’m not putting my head on the block because I’m not the person who sets the eligibility rules for the Olympics, and I’m not arrogant enough to think I know better than them. What about the boxers who have beaten Imane, did they have an advantage, or were they just better boxers? Boxing is a technical sport of skill and power, if she has been beaten many times before by other women it would indicate she hasn't got a lot of technical skill and relies on the enhanced power advantage to take a win. If she did not have the power advantage she would probably never win. You’re saying that if she didn’t have the power advantage she would never win? Do you amateur boxing experience or is that just an assumption on your part? If I say yes I do have experience in boxing would that change you opinion? Or is the question arbitrary in nature?" It would give credence to what you are saying. For instance if I was to give a technical opinion on boxing it would be worthless because although I have watched a bit of boxing I have never done any boxing training, or boxed. | |||
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"High testosterone levels allow men to put on more muscle mass than women, so men have an advantage in almost all sports. But this is boxing where weight categories mean that muscle mass is similar in both contestants. Kehlif fights in the 66-75kg category, and her opponent was obviously of a similar weight. I found it unpleasant to watch what appeared to be to be a man punching a woman in the face, but in the context of the sport, I can't see that Kehlif had a power advantage. It seems to me that Carini lost before she started, because she believed that she was fighting a man, and couldn't win. Kehlif got one lucky hit in, and Carini just crumbled. Regardless of all that, I think the Olympics organisers have made a mistake. Whatever the facts are, many people will see this as unfair, and it can only tarnish the reputation of 'the ultimate sporting competition'." the poor Italian lass who’s train hard for years spar thousands of rounds had loads of fights got hit twice quit broke down in tears she said she’d never been hit so hard in her life and ppl are defending that it’s fine ffs | |||
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"High testosterone levels allow men to put on more muscle mass than women, so men have an advantage in almost all sports. But this is boxing where weight categories mean that muscle mass is similar in both contestants. Kehlif fights in the 66-75kg category, and her opponent was obviously of a similar weight. I found it unpleasant to watch what appeared to be to be a man punching a woman in the face, but in the context of the sport, I can't see that Kehlif had a power advantage. It seems to me that Carini lost before she started, because she believed that she was fighting a man, and couldn't win. Kehlif got one lucky hit in, and Carini just crumbled. Regardless of all that, I think the Olympics organisers have made a mistake. Whatever the facts are, many people will see this as unfair, and it can only tarnish the reputation of 'the ultimate sporting competition'.the poor Italian lass who’s train hard for years spar thousands of rounds had loads of fights got hit twice quit broke down in tears she said she’d never been hit so hard in her life and ppl are defending that it’s fine ffs" If her opponent was XX, would you think differently? | |||
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"High testosterone levels allow men to put on more muscle mass than women, so men have an advantage in almost all sports. But this is boxing where weight categories mean that muscle mass is similar in both contestants. Kehlif fights in the 66-75kg category, and her opponent was obviously of a similar weight. I found it unpleasant to watch what appeared to be to be a man punching a woman in the face, but in the context of the sport, I can't see that Kehlif had a power advantage. It seems to me that Carini lost before she started, because she believed that she was fighting a man, and couldn't win. Kehlif got one lucky hit in, and Carini just crumbled. Regardless of all that, I think the Olympics organisers have made a mistake. Whatever the facts are, many people will see this as unfair, and it can only tarnish the reputation of 'the ultimate sporting competition'.the poor Italian lass who’s train hard for years spar thousands of rounds had loads of fights got hit twice quit broke down in tears she said she’d never been hit so hard in her life and ppl are defending that it’s fine ffs If her opponent was XX, would you think differently?" would you think differently if the Italian lass was killed ? | |||
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"She was disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. Why is there such a difference between the olympics and World championship competitions in terms of eligibility? " It's political. Both organisations dislike each other immensely. This is compounded by the IBA having a Russian president, being sponsored by Gazprom and by moving the operations to Russia. This is in contrast to the Olympics who have banned all Russians from completion. It's tit for tat, even though the IIOC stated in a press pack that both these boxers had been banned for failing the IBA tests. Do the IOC knew they'd failed the tests but still allowed them to compete because they are basing their eligibility criteria on the 2016 criteria used at Rio. It's wrong and someone is going to suffer for this poor decision. Mrs x | |||
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"High testosterone levels allow men to put on more muscle mass than women, so men have an advantage in almost all sports. But this is boxing where weight categories mean that muscle mass is similar in both contestants. Kehlif fights in the 66-75kg category, and her opponent was obviously of a similar weight. I found it unpleasant to watch what appeared to be to be a man punching a woman in the face, but in the context of the sport, I can't see that Kehlif had a power advantage. It seems to me that Carini lost before she started, because she believed that she was fighting a man, and couldn't win. Kehlif got one lucky hit in, and Carini just crumbled. Regardless of all that, I think the Olympics organisers have made a mistake. Whatever the facts are, many people will see this as unfair, and it can only tarnish the reputation of 'the ultimate sporting competition'." "the poor Italian lass who’s train hard for years spar thousands of rounds had loads of fights got hit twice quit broke down in tears she said she’d never been hit so hard in her life and ppl are defending that it’s fine ffs" Is that how it works? If a woman bursts into tears, then we have to take her side and assume that the other person must be bad? We know that Kehlif can't be that much stronger than Carini, as they both fit into the same 10kg weight band. Why are you taking the side of this one woman, and ignoring all of the others who have fought, and beaten, Kehlif in the past? Why is it relevant that she "broke down in tears"? | |||
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"High testosterone levels allow men to put on more muscle mass than women, so men have an advantage in almost all sports. But this is boxing where weight categories mean that muscle mass is similar in both contestants. Kehlif fights in the 66-75kg category, and her opponent was obviously of a similar weight. I found it unpleasant to watch what appeared to be to be a man punching a woman in the face, but in the context of the sport, I can't see that Kehlif had a power advantage. It seems to me that Carini lost before she started, because she believed that she was fighting a man, and couldn't win. Kehlif got one lucky hit in, and Carini just crumbled. Regardless of all that, I think the Olympics organisers have made a mistake. Whatever the facts are, many people will see this as unfair, and it can only tarnish the reputation of 'the ultimate sporting competition'.the poor Italian lass who’s train hard for years spar thousands of rounds had loads of fights got hit twice quit broke down in tears she said she’d never been hit so hard in her life and ppl are defending that it’s fine ffs If her opponent was XX, would you think differently?would you think differently if the Italian lass was killed ?" I'm playing devil's advocate, answer the question. Boxing has it's dangers and it's up to the board to reduce risks. I'm sure the headgear doesn't totally remove risk of boxers becoming punch d*unk. Btw I've never stated once it's unfair - look at Khelif's muscles, look at her reach. However, she was granted eligibility on the basis she is female. Then compare Lin who also has DSD (possibly a different type), who also previously failed testosterone levels, her muscle bulk is much smaller. | |||
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"High testosterone levels allow men to put on more muscle mass than women, so men have an advantage in almost all sports. But this is boxing where weight categories mean that muscle mass is similar in both contestants. Kehlif fights in the 66-75kg category, and her opponent was obviously of a similar weight. I found it unpleasant to watch what appeared to be to be a man punching a woman in the face, but in the context of the sport, I can't see that Kehlif had a power advantage. It seems to me that Carini lost before she started, because she believed that she was fighting a man, and couldn't win. Kehlif got one lucky hit in, and Carini just crumbled. Regardless of all that, I think the Olympics organisers have made a mistake. Whatever the facts are, many people will see this as unfair, and it can only tarnish the reputation of 'the ultimate sporting competition'. the poor Italian lass who’s train hard for years spar thousands of rounds had loads of fights got hit twice quit broke down in tears she said she’d never been hit so hard in her life and ppl are defending that it’s fine ffs Is that how it works? If a woman bursts into tears, then we have to take her side and assume that the other person must be bad? We know that Kehlif can't be that much stronger than Carini, as they both fit into the same 10kg weight band. Why are you taking the side of this one woman, and ignoring all of the others who have fought, and beaten, Kehlif in the past? Why is it relevant that she "broke down in tears"?" she broke down in tears because she had never been hit so hard boxing is about punch power punch resistance speed and stamina all of which the lass had less of compared to her opponent if you think that’s ok fair doos mate but would you draw the line at rugby ufc kickboxing or how about bareknuckle? | |||
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"Carini has fought 108 times.. Won 84 (4 by KO), lost 23 .. She's been hit longer in some bouts than yesterday, yes it's her perception and reason given that the punches she took were the hardest ever but that's not a new thing for any boxer with that record.. Is there something else going on behind the scenes, political etc to make a point at the biggest event on the planet..?" so she’s trained all her life to get to the Olympics just to make a point lol | |||
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"Men beating up women for your entertainment and the people who call it out are the villains… Someone make this make sense 🤷♂️" Agree. If they want to change sex they need their own championships, stop mixing up all these 'genders' and pandering to political correctness to prevent a few individuals being offended. It's absolutely disgusting seeing this being played out for the world to see on TV. That poor woman. All that training for years and this is the sort of thing that kills their dream. Unacceptable. | |||
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"Carini has fought 108 times.. Won 84 (4 by KO), lost 23 .. She's been hit longer in some bouts than yesterday, yes it's her perception and reason given that the punches she took were the hardest ever but that's not a new thing for any boxer with that record.. Is there something else going on behind the scenes, political etc to make a point at the biggest event on the planet..?so she’s trained all her life to get to the Olympics just to make a point lol" It's been done in this games already and throughout the modern games.. Even yesterday an Algerian competitor apparently was 400 grammes too heavy just before their judo match against an Israeli .. That's not normal, that's political.. The pushback in some areas of the Italian government against what they are saying as trans issues in sport even though khalifa's isn't trans can't be ignored.. Rule nothing out.. | |||
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"she broke down in tears because she had never been hit so hard" Again, why is it so important to you that she broke down in tears. Why do you keep saying that? "boxing is about punch power punch resistance speed and stamina all of which the lass had less of compared to her opponent" Did she? Did anyone measure those things before the match? Or are you just assuming, because you think Kehlif is a bloke? "if you think that’s ok fair doos mate but would you draw the line at rugby ufc kickboxing or how about bareknuckle?" If I was in charge, I'd get rid of boxing altogether. I'd change eligibility for all sports to chromosomes, if you have a Y, you're male, otherwise not. I definitely wouldn't allow males and females to compete together in any sport which includes physical contact. Having said all that. Given the tight restrictions on body weight in boxing, I can't see how any male would have an advantage over a female of similar weight, other than purely psychological. | |||
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"High testosterone levels allow men to put on more muscle mass than women, so men have an advantage in almost all sports. But this is boxing where weight categories mean that muscle mass is similar in both contestants. Kehlif fights in the 66-75kg category, and her opponent was obviously of a similar weight. I found it unpleasant to watch what appeared to be to be a man punching a woman in the face, but in the context of the sport, I can't see that Kehlif had a power advantage. It seems to me that Carini lost before she started, because she believed that she was fighting a man, and couldn't win. Kehlif got one lucky hit in, and Carini just crumbled. Regardless of all that, I think the Olympics organisers have made a mistake. Whatever the facts are, many people will see this as unfair, and it can only tarnish the reputation of 'the ultimate sporting competition'.the poor Italian lass who’s train hard for years spar thousands of rounds had loads of fights got hit twice quit broke down in tears she said she’d never been hit so hard in her life and ppl are defending that it’s fine ffs" You understand that boxing is a contact sport, with one of the win conditions being hitting your opponent so hard they are unable to stand up for 10 seconds or more, yeah? | |||
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"It's absolutely disgusting seeing this being played out for the world to see on TV. That poor woman. All that training for years and this is the sort of thing that kills their dream. Unacceptable." There are hundreds of women that have trained for years and then had their dreams crushed at this Olympics, many of them being put on TV so the world can watch their despair. Why is this one unacceptable, but all the others are OK? | |||
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"Men beating up women for your entertainment and the people who call it out are the villains… Someone make this make sense 🤷♂️ Agree. If they want to change sex they need their own championships, stop mixing up all these 'genders' and pandering to political correctness to prevent a few individuals being offended. It's absolutely disgusting seeing this being played out for the world to see on TV. That poor woman. All that training for years and this is the sort of thing that kills their dream. Unacceptable." Nobody has changed sex, they are both female. | |||
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"she broke down in tears because she had never been hit so hard Again, why is it so important to you that she broke down in tears. Why do you keep saying that? boxing is about punch power punch resistance speed and stamina all of which the lass had less of compared to her opponent Did she? Did anyone measure those things before the match? Or are you just assuming, because you think Kehlif is a bloke? if you think that’s ok fair doos mate but would you draw the line at rugby ufc kickboxing or how about bareknuckle? If I was in charge, I'd get rid of boxing altogether. I'd change eligibility for all sports to chromosomes, if you have a Y, you're male, otherwise not. I definitely wouldn't allow males and females to compete together in any sport which includes physical contact. Having said all that. Given the tight restrictions on body weight in boxing, I can't see how any male would have an advantage over a female of similar weight, other than purely psychological." With roughly uniform levels of weight and fitness, the males' average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females', with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman. Apologies, not the 200% I stated earlier. The amount of victim blaming I’m seeing across these threads combined with a bloodthirsty desire to see someone with male characteristics beat up women is utterly astounding. | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that?" I'm not sure what view i have you disagree with and what this article therefore is showing. I've said I can see an argument for having T limits in women's sports. (Counterpoint, we don't exclude on any other genetic advantage( I can see sports adopting a "only women who are also XX" definition and test alongside drugs. Harder to do at lower levels. But my sense is people see this more than just achieving fairness in sport. That's why we see comments about trans athletes. (She's not Trans). It's also why some are putting on their best SKS impression to avoid answering what is a women. There are a group of people who have taken a black and white view about what a women is. This group says it's own sex that matters when making decisions. And sex is defined at birth based on genitals presenting at birth. And this has introduced a shade of grey. This boxer is a women by that definition. She would use women's toilets, go to a women's prison and go to a women's refuse. If you fight for CIS women safety you fight for all CIS women. This has nothing to do with the gender debate. This boxer isnt a gotcha in that sense. It just shows even with a simple answer to a simple question there is complexity in applying that in real life. There is not a perfect correlation between genitals (sex) and chromosomes and other genetic stuff. The fact a women (by genitals) may have other attributes associated with men may creates the stepping stone into gender discussions some want to avoid. | |||
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"With roughly uniform levels of weight and fitness, the males' average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females', with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman. Apologies, not the 200% I stated earlier." I'm glad you checked. Can you give us a link so that we can read up on the background. | |||
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"With roughly uniform levels of weight and fitness, the males' average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females', with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman. Apologies, not the 200% I stated earlier. I'm glad you checked. Can you give us a link so that we can read up on the background." I won’t share links but feel free to Google ‘ difference between punching power men and women’. The article I quoted from is from 2020 so not a knee jerk reaction to recent events | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that?I'm not sure what view i have you disagree with and what this article therefore is showing. I've said I can see an argument for having T limits in women's sports. (Counterpoint, we don't exclude on any other genetic advantage( I can see sports adopting a "only women who are also XX" definition and test alongside drugs. Harder to do at lower levels. But my sense is people see this more than just achieving fairness in sport. That's why we see comments about trans athletes. (She's not Trans). It's also why some are putting on their best SKS impression to avoid answering what is a women. There are a group of people who have taken a black and white view about what a women is. This group says it's own sex that matters when making decisions. And sex is defined at birth based on genitals presenting at birth. And this has introduced a shade of grey. This boxer is a women by that definition. She would use women's toilets, go to a women's prison and go to a women's refuse. If you fight for CIS women safety you fight for all CIS women. This has nothing to do with the gender debate. This boxer isnt a gotcha in that sense. It just shows even with a simple answer to a simple question there is complexity in applying that in real life. There is not a perfect correlation between genitals (sex) and chromosomes and other genetic stuff. The fact a women (by genitals) may have other attributes associated with men may creates the stepping stone into gender discussions some want to avoid. " Boxer A has a drugs test and is found to have too much of a prohibited PED substance in their body. They then recieve a ban. That's quite accepted. It doesn't matter how the substance is in the body, if its present in prohibited amounts then you are banned. You could deliberately inject it or invest or drink it unintentionally it doesn't matter. So it's not the mechanics of delivery that's the issue, it's the substance. In this case its testosterone. The boxer in question has too much of it to fall within acceptable levels. It's sad because it occurs naturally but she has too much of it, has had this issue since at least puberty and as such she's over the limit and should be banned. Limits are in place for a reason. And they have already failed one test, they should be already serving a ban. It's an unfair advantage, no matter how it gets into the system. It's sad but there are tons of other medical criteria, not relating to sex, gender or trans, that would see you banned from competing. This is no different, other than it's primarily for the safety of the opponent whilst the other is for the safety of the boxer itself. So too much testosterone, or any banned substance and you should be stopped from competing. Mrs x | |||
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"High testosterone levels allow men to put on more muscle mass than women, so men have an advantage in almost all sports. But this is boxing where weight categories mean that muscle mass is similar in both contestants. Kehlif fights in the 66-75kg category, and her opponent was obviously of a similar weight. I found it unpleasant to watch what appeared to be to be a man punching a woman in the face, but in the context of the sport, I can't see that Kehlif had a power advantage. It seems to me that Carini lost before she started, because she believed that she was fighting a man, and couldn't win. Kehlif got one lucky hit in, and Carini just crumbled. Regardless of all that, I think the Olympics organisers have made a mistake. Whatever the facts are, many people will see this as unfair, and it can only tarnish the reputation of 'the ultimate sporting competition'.the poor Italian lass who’s train hard for years spar thousands of rounds had loads of fights got hit twice quit broke down in tears she said she’d never been hit so hard in her life and ppl are defending that it’s fine ffs You understand that boxing is a contact sport, with one of the win conditions being hitting your opponent so hard they are unable to stand up for 10 seconds or more, yeah?" yes I understand way more than you think but do you understand the dangers a women face from been hit of a man ? I guess waching it in a ring is ok to some | |||
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"Khelif identifies as female, but they were born and raised in Algeria, an Islamic country. There are no LGBT rights in Algeria. Being born with female genitalia means that they probably had no choice other than to identify with the contents of their pants, otherwise they probably wouldn't be alive now. I believe that if they had been born in a more progressive country, they would identify as male. "Open" categories in sports are needed. Good call but it will mean getting tough on categorisation, is there an appetite for that? born a female, identified as female, yet needs a new category depending on how they may have identified of born in a different country ... Why can't she be a female and yet not allowed to compete for other reasons not to do with sex or gender? Can that be the categorisation? From the Guardian: Khelif is one of two boxers permitted to fight at the Olympics despite being disqualified from the women’s world championships last year for failing gender eligibility tests. In highly charged scenes at the North Paris Arena, a first punch from Khelif dislodged Carini’s chinstrap and a second smashed against her chin and bloodied her shorts. After multiple punches Carini returned to her corner and raised her hand. She fell to her knees sobbing and refused to shake Khelif’s hand after the Algerian was declared the winner. Carini said she had pulled out after being hit harder than she had ever been hit and feared her nose was broken. “I am heartbroken,” Carini said. What are your thoughts after reading that?I'm not sure what view i have you disagree with and what this article therefore is showing. I've said I can see an argument for having T limits in women's sports. (Counterpoint, we don't exclude on any other genetic advantage( I can see sports adopting a "only women who are also XX" definition and test alongside drugs. Harder to do at lower levels. But my sense is people see this more than just achieving fairness in sport. That's why we see comments about trans athletes. (She's not Trans). It's also why some are putting on their best SKS impression to avoid answering what is a women. There are a group of people who have taken a black and white view about what a women is. This group says it's own sex that matters when making decisions. And sex is defined at birth based on genitals presenting at birth. And this has introduced a shade of grey. This boxer is a women by that definition. She would use women's toilets, go to a women's prison and go to a women's refuse. If you fight for CIS women safety you fight for all CIS women. This has nothing to do with the gender debate. This boxer isnt a gotcha in that sense. It just shows even with a simple answer to a simple question there is complexity in applying that in real life. There is not a perfect correlation between genitals (sex) and chromosomes and other genetic stuff. The fact a women (by genitals) may have other attributes associated with men may creates the stepping stone into gender discussions some want to avoid. Boxer A has a drugs test and is found to have too much of a prohibited PED substance in their body. They then recieve a ban. That's quite accepted. It doesn't matter how the substance is in the body, if its present in prohibited amounts then you are banned. You could deliberately inject it or invest or drink it unintentionally it doesn't matter. So it's not the mechanics of delivery that's the issue, it's the substance. In this case its testosterone. The boxer in question has too much of it to fall within acceptable levels. It's sad because it occurs naturally but she has too much of it, has had this issue since at least puberty and as such she's over the limit and should be banned. Limits are in place for a reason. And they have already failed one test, they should be already serving a ban. It's an unfair advantage, no matter how it gets into the system. It's sad but there are tons of other medical criteria, not relating to sex, gender or trans, that would see you banned from competing. This is no different, other than it's primarily for the safety of the opponent whilst the other is for the safety of the boxer itself. So too much testosterone, or any banned substance and you should be stopped from competing. Mrs x" I get your view and understand the arguments for a T max regardless of why it is high. I also see you seem to have been consistent with keeping to this topic. However we have seen comments on men beating up women (not a man) and trans people who change their identity having their own championships (not trans. Hasnt changed sex/identity) As such i don't believe everyone is taking the same focused vow on this discussion. It's become a proxy for the trans debate despite this having nothing to do with men (by birth) or gender. | |||
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"I won’t share links but feel free to Google ‘ difference between punching power men and women’. The article I quoted from is from 2020 so not a knee jerk reaction to recent events" A specific search term is just as good as a link. The article summarises research that measures average values for males and females. Sadly the research makes no attempt to determine if a male has an advantage over a female with the same body mass. Which means it's not useful in this debate. Interesting reading though, thanks. | |||
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"I won’t share links but feel free to Google ‘ difference between punching power men and women’. The article I quoted from is from 2020 so not a knee jerk reaction to recent events A specific search term is just as good as a link. The article summarises research that measures average values for males and females. Sadly the research makes no attempt to determine if a male has an advantage over a female with the same body mass. Which means it's not useful in this debate. Interesting reading though, thanks." did it say anything about the diffrence in punch resistance? | |||
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"High testosterone levels allow men to put on more muscle mass than women, so men have an advantage in almost all sports. But this is boxing where weight categories mean that muscle mass is similar in both contestants. Kehlif fights in the 66-75kg category, and her opponent was obviously of a similar weight. I found it unpleasant to watch what appeared to be to be a man punching a woman in the face, but in the context of the sport, I can't see that Kehlif had a power advantage. It seems to me that Carini lost before she started, because she believed that she was fighting a man, and couldn't win. Kehlif got one lucky hit in, and Carini just crumbled. Regardless of all that, I think the Olympics organisers have made a mistake. Whatever the facts are, many people will see this as unfair, and it can only tarnish the reputation of 'the ultimate sporting competition'.the poor Italian lass who’s train hard for years spar thousands of rounds had loads of fights got hit twice quit broke down in tears she said she’d never been hit so hard in her life and ppl are defending that it’s fine ffs You understand that boxing is a contact sport, with one of the win conditions being hitting your opponent so hard they are unable to stand up for 10 seconds or more, yeah?yes I understand way more than you think but do you understand the dangers a women face from been hit of a man ? I guess waching it in a ring is ok to some " No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? | |||
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"I won’t share links but feel free to Google ‘ difference between punching power men and women’. The article I quoted from is from 2020 so not a knee jerk reaction to recent events" "A specific search term is just as good as a link. The article summarises research that measures average values for males and females. Sadly the research makes no attempt to determine if a male has an advantage over a female with the same body mass. Which means it's not useful in this debate. Interesting reading though, thanks." "did it say anything about the diffrence in punch resistance?" No. The research was trying to prove the theory that punching each other was a major evolutionary driver in hominid upper body strength. It didn't consider anything that happened after the punch was thrown. | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you?" And we're back to defining what a woman is. I'm sure that person does think that Kehlif is a man, while you obviously don't think that. It does seem very odd that most people base their definition on the shape of a person's genitals. Since most people seem to be in the habit of keeping their genitals covered, how on earth have we managed to identify men and women before now? | |||
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"I won’t share links but feel free to Google ‘ difference between punching power men and women’. The article I quoted from is from 2020 so not a knee jerk reaction to recent events A specific search term is just as good as a link. The article summarises research that measures average values for males and females. Sadly the research makes no attempt to determine if a male has an advantage over a female with the same body mass. Which means it's not useful in this debate. Interesting reading though, thanks. did it say anything about the diffrence in punch resistance? No. The research was trying to prove the theory that punching each other was a major evolutionary driver in hominid upper body strength. It didn't consider anything that happened after the punch was thrown." aw right but the problem there is that it’s not about just strength it’s lower body movements aswell and the fact that some are just born heavy handed all boxers and coaches will say that same as two ppl equal size weight can have diffrent punch resistance look at AJ for example | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? And we're back to defining what a woman is. I'm sure that person does think that Kehlif is a man, while you obviously don't think that. It does seem very odd that most people base their definition on the shape of a person's genitals. Since most people seem to be in the habit of keeping their genitals covered, how on earth have we managed to identify men and women before now?" most people are born naked. And we trust the doctors know their anatomy. Plus genitals are easier to check than chromosomes!! All other suggestions welcome ! Just don't say female human ... | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you?" They were. XY chromasomes = male. | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male." There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes. | |||
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"It does seem very odd that most people base their definition on the shape of a person's genitals. Since most people seem to be in the habit of keeping their genitals covered, how on earth have we managed to identify men and women before now?" "most people are born naked. And we trust the doctors know their anatomy. Plus genitals are easier to check than chromosomes!!" That's true for writing birth certificates. But how do the rest of us know whether a person is male or female if we meet them once they've started to wear clothes? It's almost as if there might be more differences between men and women, and that just guessing based on genital shape at birth might be a bad idea. But still lots of people seem to be suggesting that possession of the right genitals is the single determining factor. | |||
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"genitals are easier to check than chromosomes!!" Now that I think of it, why don't we do simple chromosome checks at birth? The are plenty of conditions that could be detected early if we did. | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes." The IBA test last year showed she did have XY chromasomes which is why she was disqualified. | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes." It is widely believed they failed a swab test (which identifies chromosones) at the last World championships. Failure in that case would be identifying xy chromosones, making them ineligible to compete in the female category. The Olympics choose not to conduct such tests. | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes. The IBA test last year showed she did have XY chromasomes which is why she was disqualified." Do they? Do you have a link to the test results? | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes. The IBA test last year showed she did have XY chromasomes which is why she was disqualified. Do they? Do you have a link to the test results?" They were not made public, possibly for legal reasons around confidentiality. However its difficult to imagine what else the tests were for or why the boxers were disqualified (they were not for testosterone levels, or a physical examination). Neither boxer pursued an appeal against the findings. | |||
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"The IBA statement on the two boxers, including the minutes from the meeting I which they were banned from the tournament. https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/ The last statement is quite damning towards the IOC." Slightly more interesting is the implication of this statement, specifically with regard to to the boxers in question (emphasis added): The IBA will never support any boxing bouts ***between the genders***, as the organization puts the safety and well-being of our athletes first. Found here: IBA reaffirms the position and removal of boxers from all events, aims to protect female boxers, and condemns both the International Olympic Committee and World Boxing for allowing ineligible athletes to compete https://www.iba.sport/news/iba-reaffirms-the-position-and-removal-of-boxers-from-all-events/ It might be political in nature (or false), but they strongly imply that they consider those two boxers to be male. | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes. The IBA test last year showed she did have XY chromasomes which is why she was disqualified. Do they? Do you have a link to the test results?" The IBA statement doesn't specify the test however does indicate they are confident in the results. A quick Google search will give you several reasonably reputable sources (including the Independent newspaper) who are reporting the XY chromasome issue. | |||
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"One element of this case that's not much discussed is that following Caster Semenya's success in 2012, some countries seem to have actively identified and trained athletes with intersex conditions as a means to Olympic success. In the 2016 female 800m final all three medal winners had similar intersex conditions (broadly xy chromosones with some female genitalia) promoting a rule change in athletics. It seems other sports are yet to catch up. " So was this rule change pro or anti intersex? Mrs x | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes. The IBA test last year showed she did have XY chromasomes which is why she was disqualified. Do they? Do you have a link to the test results? The IBA statement doesn't specify the test however does indicate they are confident in the results. A quick Google search will give you several reasonably reputable sources (including the Independent newspaper) who are reporting the XY chromasome issue." Font sau that people don't seem to believe reputable media sources. Mrs x | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes. The IBA test last year showed she did have XY chromasomes which is why she was disqualified. Do they? Do you have a link to the test results? They were not made public, possibly for legal reasons around confidentiality. However its difficult to imagine what else the tests were for or why the boxers were disqualified (they were not for testosterone levels, or a physical examination). Neither boxer pursued an appeal against the findings. " How do we know they weren’t for testosterone levels or a physical examination? | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes. The IBA test last year showed she did have XY chromasomes which is why she was disqualified. Do they? Do you have a link to the test results? They were not made public, possibly for legal reasons around confidentiality. However its difficult to imagine what else the tests were for or why the boxers were disqualified (they were not for testosterone levels, or a physical examination). Neither boxer pursued an appeal against the findings. How do we know they weren’t for testosterone levels or a physical examination?" First (IBA) link as above: Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors. | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes. The IBA test last year showed she did have XY chromasomes which is why she was disqualified. Do they? Do you have a link to the test results? They were not made public, possibly for legal reasons around confidentiality. However its difficult to imagine what else the tests were for or why the boxers were disqualified (they were not for testosterone levels, or a physical examination). Neither boxer pursued an appeal against the findings. How do we know they weren’t for testosterone levels or a physical examination? First (IBA) link as above: Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors." Thank you. Interestingly it says ‘over other female competitors’ | |||
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"The boxer was previously barred from womens events, so why did they allow it on this event? Who else think that the wins shouldnt be counted?" Due to what looks like a test that's only from one body which hasn't the best reputation it seems.. Different criteria, which seems to me a bit of an anomaly but is what it is.. Why? She's a woman, says so on her passport which the IOC have accepted so technically she has done nothing to justify stripping her whole career to shreds.. It is an issue that needs a common criteria etc but there's politics involved.. | |||
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"The boxer was previously barred from womens events, so why did they allow it on this event? Who else think that the wins shouldnt be counted?" For any other elite sportsman/woman caught at one event doping the ban is for that and yes they will carry out checks on past samples if there's a new method of identifying those etc.. To even wonder if someone like Ronaldo or Messi who lets say gets caught at the last world cup might lose all their medals/ ballon d'Or etc seems bizarre.. | |||
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"The boxer was previously barred from womens events, so why did they allow it on this event? Who else think that the wins shouldnt be counted? Due to what looks like a test that's only from one body which hasn't the best reputation it seems.. Different criteria, which seems to me a bit of an anomaly but is what it is.. Why? She's a woman, says so on her passport which the IOC have accepted so technically she has done nothing to justify stripping her whole career to shreds.. It is an issue that needs a common criteria etc but there's politics involved.. " Yes, most of it is politically. I feel sorry for the women who train all their life for this event and to almost expect to lose the match because of it. | |||
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"It does seem very odd that most people base their definition on the shape of a person's genitals. Since most people seem to be in the habit of keeping their genitals covered, how on earth have we managed to identify men and women before now? most people are born naked. And we trust the doctors know their anatomy. Plus genitals are easier to check than chromosomes!! That's true for writing birth certificates. But how do the rest of us know whether a person is male or female if we meet them once they've started to wear clothes? It's almost as if there might be more differences between men and women, and that just guessing based on genital shape at birth might be a bad idea. But still lots of people seem to be suggesting that possession of the right genitals is the single determining factor." there possibly are differences. But someone who is 5ft 10 and 70kg could be a larger women or a smaller man. Most differences are hard to tell just by looking at someone who's in that overlap area. I couldn't tell you what that better way of splitting people up is tho. Possibly ask those who mock SKS? | |||
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"genitals are easier to check than chromosomes!! Now that I think of it, why don't we do simple chromosome checks at birth? The are plenty of conditions that could be detected early if we did." that's true at birth, but jow would the rest of us know? Whole other thread on early detection. Especially if it identifies a carrier of a defect. | |||
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"One element of this case that's not much discussed is that following Caster Semenya's success in 2012, some countries seem to have actively identified and trained athletes with intersex conditions as a means to Olympic success. In the 2016 female 800m final all three medal winners had similar intersex conditions (broadly xy chromosones with some female genitalia) promoting a rule change in athletics. It seems other sports are yet to catch up. So was this rule change pro or anti intersex? Mrs x" It requited those with intersex conditions like Semenya to reduce their natural testosterone levels before competing. | |||
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"One element of this case that's not much discussed is that following Caster Semenya's success in 2012, some countries seem to have actively identified and trained athletes with intersex conditions as a means to Olympic success. In the 2016 female 800m final all three medal winners had similar intersex conditions (broadly xy chromosones with some female genitalia) promoting a rule change in athletics. It seems other sports are yet to catch up. So was this rule change pro or anti intersex? Mrs x It requited those with intersex conditions like Semenya to reduce their natural testosterone levels before competing." They are doing that now but problems with the effects longterm hogh testosterone levels. Also only have to be at this reduced level from 2 months prior to the competition. This means they could have high testosterone for 10 months prior to competition. If one of her competitors had elevated testosterone 10 months prior and this was detected in a drugs test they would be banned. Mrs x | |||
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"One element of this case that's not much discussed is that following Caster Semenya's success in 2012, some countries seem to have actively identified and trained athletes with intersex conditions as a means to Olympic success. In the 2016 female 800m final all three medal winners had similar intersex conditions (broadly xy chromosones with some female genitalia) promoting a rule change in athletics. It seems other sports are yet to catch up. So was this rule change pro or anti intersex? Mrs x It requited those with intersex conditions like Semenya to reduce their natural testosterone levels before competing.They are doing that now but problems with the effects longterm hogh testosterone levels. Also only have to be at this reduced level from 2 months prior to the competition. This means they could have high testosterone for 10 months prior to competition. If one of her competitors had elevated testosterone 10 months prior and this was detected in a drugs test they would be banned. Mrs x" | |||
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"Men beating up women for your entertainment and the people who call it out are the villains… Someone make this make sense 🤷♂️ Agree. If they want to change sex they need their own championships, stop mixing up all these 'genders' and pandering to political correctness to prevent a few individuals being offended. It's absolutely disgusting seeing this being played out for the world to see on TV. That poor woman. All that training for years and this is the sort of thing that kills their dream. Unacceptable." Where is the slow clap emoticons. This is not, I repeat NOT, a trans issue. You would have known if you had read even the first few posts. | |||
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"High testosterone levels allow men to put on more muscle mass than women, so men have an advantage in almost all sports. But this is boxing where weight categories mean that muscle mass is similar in both contestants. Kehlif fights in the 66-75kg category, and her opponent was obviously of a similar weight. I found it unpleasant to watch what appeared to be to be a man punching a woman in the face, but in the context of the sport, I can't see that Kehlif had a power advantage. It seems to me that Carini lost before she started, because she believed that she was fighting a man, and couldn't win. Kehlif got one lucky hit in, and Carini just crumbled. Regardless of all that, I think the Olympics organisers have made a mistake. Whatever the facts are, many people will see this as unfair, and it can only tarnish the reputation of 'the ultimate sporting competition'.the poor Italian lass who’s train hard for years spar thousands of rounds had loads of fights got hit twice quit broke down in tears she said she’d never been hit so hard in her life and ppl are defending that it’s fine ffs You understand that boxing is a contact sport, with one of the win conditions being hitting your opponent so hard they are unable to stand up for 10 seconds or more, yeah?yes I understand way more than you think but do you understand the dangers a women face from been hit of a man ? I guess waching it in a ring is ok to some " We haven't watched it though. | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male." DSD XY | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes." I'm taking it she does with the report of her having DSD. | |||
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"Vice President of the WBO, one of the sports main bodies, has stated that Kehlif is male and the IOC was warned about this issue. Also yesterday an IOC spokesperson made a statement completely confusing trans and intersex and had to later apologise and ammend. What a 🤡 show." sports shouldn't be defining men and women. However they should be able to decide how the categorise their sport provided they seek to offer opportunities to all where possible. I don't know how possible that is for boxing. I've seen no-one state an opinion on whether this boxer would be in danger in the mens ring. Conflation with trans is also unhelpful. Funny how many people think Algeria would send a trans person to the Olympics. Homosexuality is still illegal there ! | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes. The IBA test last year showed she did have XY chromasomes which is why she was disqualified. Do they? Do you have a link to the test results?" https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cye0ex43k63o "The IBA defines a woman, female or girl as "an individual with chromosome XX" and men, males or boys as "an individual with chromosome XY". The IBA denied Khelif's testosterone levels had been tested. In an interview with BBC sports editor Dan Roan on Thursday, IBA chief executive Chris Roberts said XY chromosomes were found in "both cases"." IBA has come out with that in an interview with the BBC. Still, it could be politically motivated, and the political context between the organisations should not be ignored... Official statements on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/live/NXciEQWZghM?si=iJmHzZeZLrO46u0v (23:30 onwards, then a very specific question at 47:20). The IOC guy says "not a trans issue", then says "not a DSD issue". IOC later clarified that he means only "not trans", not "not DSD". Oddly, he brings in the reputation of women in Algeria as a material consideration. | |||
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"No one was hit by a man though, you understand that don’t you? They were. XY chromasomes = male. There is no proof that she has XY chromosomes. The IBA test last year showed she did have XY chromasomes which is why she was disqualified. Do they? Do you have a link to the test results? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cye0ex43k63o "The IBA defines a woman, female or girl as "an individual with chromosome XX" and men, males or boys as "an individual with chromosome XY". The IBA denied Khelif's testosterone levels had been tested. In an interview with BBC sports editor Dan Roan on Thursday, IBA chief executive Chris Roberts said XY chromosomes were found in "both cases"." IBA has come out with that in an interview with the BBC. Still, it could be politically motivated, and the political context between the organisations should not be ignored... Official statements on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/live/NXciEQWZghM?si=iJmHzZeZLrO46u0v (23:30 onwards, then a very specific question at 47:20). The IOC guy says "not a trans issue", then says "not a DSD issue". IOC later clarified that he means only "not trans", not "not DSD". Oddly, he brings in the reputation of women in Algeria as a material consideration." The other problem now is that actually no one has independently seen the information.. the only source for the story is actually a Russian news agency…. If they are claiming she has been gender misidentified… she has been competing internationally for years and you are telling me it’s only now it comes out! So when she lost her 9 bouts before she was a woman… but now she is winning she is a man! Really!!!! Actually rte in Ireland have done some researching on the story and there explanation of all the twist turns and doubts is brilliant! | |||
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" ...you are telling me it’s only now it comes out! " Who is the"you" in this instance? Note also in the above: "Still, it could be politically motivated, and the political context between the organisations should not be ignored..." | |||
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"Women and men are biologically different. Anybody that has XY chromosomes and/or high levels of testosterone should not be allowed to compete against women in professional sports. Certainly not combat sports, for obvious reasons. Imane is quite literally a freak of nature, like hermaphrodites are. It's a fluke of nature and absolutely not normal. PC nonsense is what allows this nonsense to occur." An anomaly for sure. But what nonsense? | |||
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