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"Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. _____________ To guide IHRA in its work, the following examples may serve as illustrations: Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits. Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to: * Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion. * Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions. * Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews. * Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust). * Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust. * Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations. * Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor. * Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. * Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis. *Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. * Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel." | |||
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"Which one(s) are you seeing." At least the following, sometimes deliberate, but often out of ignorance. Probably more if I gave it some thought: * Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor. * Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. *Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. * Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel." | |||
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" * Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."" Many (obvious) Jews cannot walk an hour through London or other European cities without getting either racist or anti Israel comments or abuse. It's not just an online phenomenon. | |||
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"socialists have always hated Jews" Many of the early Zionists were socialists, but what we see today seems to be this weird blending of far-left idealism and far right islamo-fascism.  | |||
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"I take neither side. I simply ask one question. AIPAC control both sides of American politics via senators & Congressmen etc. Our own British government is heavily influenced by both Labour Friends of Israel & Conservative Friends of Israel lobbying groups. How can this be right & allowed to happen? That our country is effectively a puppet of another state government/religion? MPs taken on trips abroad funded by these lobbyists. Corruption of the highest level. This isn't anti Israel, it should be ANY outside country being able to do this to Britain. Wonder if anyone would be allowed to ask about this on Question Time & introduce the wider electorate to the knowledge who really controls British politics regardless of whether you vote Tory or Labour. I'm sure a lot of people don't realise this situation exists. " Lots of groups lobby parliament and they have the express aim of trying to lever support for their cause. You appear to suggest in your post that there is a nefarious group that exerts control over our country and we are a 'puppet' to them. You imply that they are Jews but you seem oblivious that this post is antisemitic in nature. Mrs x | |||
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"You appear to suggest in your post that there is a nefarious group that exerts control over our country and we are a 'puppet' to them. You imply that they are Jews but you seem oblivious that this post is antisemitic in nature." One of the problems I've seen, is that people seem to think antisemitism, or all racism, is a blatant display of hatred. But it's often way more subtle than that, presented as intellectual discourse or as some sort of conspiratorial plot that we need to be aware of. I think a lot of people listen to the wrong people and get taken in, without really thinking what these ideas really mean. It's like a virus. | |||
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"For me, I prefer to do some research on the topics i.e. like what the OP has obviously done here (Good On You OP) but now as soon as I start talking with Brick walls I have scripts on my browser to completely ignore comments from some and only discus with the likes with many on here." I grew up in an area with a large Jewish population, went to school with Jews, worked for Jews and had many Jewish friends. Like anyone, Jews are good and bad, people like anyone else with all the desires and hopes of anyone else. I'll always stick up for my Jewish friends, even if I don't share their beliefs. So, some years ago I decided to really get stuck into learning about the Israeli conflict, the history of Zionism, the history of Judaism and it went from there. At certain points in my life, purely for the sake of my own learning, I've spent several hours a day reading, studying and watching presentations on the history and making sure I had all the facts. I've been known to hyperfixate on this for months at a time (it's a neurodivergent thing). My knowledge is not perfect, of course, but I'm reasonably confident that I know more than most people - including (boast) some well known commentators and agitators. I do my best.  | |||
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"I wasn't aware of the existence of these groups until a couple of days ago & it's very worrying. Look at AIPACs own website & Wikipedia like I did. That's why our government & opposition can't condemn the current situation in Gaza. It's not antisemitic to bring this to peoples attention. It's vital public information to allow people to decide for themselves. I had no idea & I'm horrified that any group can influence governments anywhere to such an extent. It's simply not right. Calling it antisemitic is just trying to silence it before it becomes too hot to handle. I'm not naive enough to get that plenty of organisations lobby governments but where religion drives politics to this extent, its beyond dangerous. The US is completely screwed up by religion in politics, we must not follow suit is all I'm saying. " The reason it's antisemitic in nature is it's not 'balanced'. You are just pointing out Jewish lobbyists and painting them out to be 'controllin' our society. Why are you not doing the same about the dozens of Christian or Muslim lobbyists that exist in bot the States and the UK? You do know they exist don't you? It's a normal practice in politics , yet you are making out its sinister and spreading 'fear' against one particular group. This has been seen throughout history towards Jews and is antisemitic. Mrs x | |||
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"In 2017 Nigel Farage was called out by the Campaign Against Antisemitism for referring to a 'powerful Jewish lobby' controlling US politics. In spite of his recent support for Israel, I don't think he's ever retracted this." Leopard never changes its spots.... Mrs x | |||
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"In 2017 Nigel Farage was called out by the Campaign Against Antisemitism for referring to a 'powerful Jewish lobby' controlling US politics. In spite of his recent support for Israel, I don't think he's ever retracted this." Perhaps the Jewish lobby have a special relationship with the US? I've never took much interest in the Jewish argument when it comes to politics, as find most of the religious movements have to much power in politics imho | |||
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"In 2017 Nigel Farage was called out by the Campaign Against Antisemitism for referring to a 'powerful Jewish lobby' controlling US politics. In spite of his recent support for Israel, I don't think he's ever retracted this. Perhaps the Jewish lobby have a special relationship with the US? I've never took much interest in the Jewish argument when it comes to politics, as find most of the religious movements have to much power in politics imho " I wouldn't think it's anymore 'special' than any of the Christian lobbyists. Mrs x | |||
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"In 2017 Nigel Farage was called out by the Campaign Against Antisemitism for referring to a 'powerful Jewish lobby' controlling US politics. In spite of his recent support for Israel, I don't think he's ever retracted this. Perhaps the Jewish lobby have a special relationship with the US? I've never took much interest in the Jewish argument when it comes to politics, as find most of the religious movements have to much power in politics imho I wouldn't think it's anymore 'special' than any of the Christian lobbyists. Mrs x" Disagree as some lobbists have more influence then others, Christians you could say latter day saints, methodist, Anglican etc No different to the UK, how many religious leaders are in the house of Lords? | |||
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"In 2017 Nigel Farage was called out by the Campaign Against Antisemitism for referring to a 'powerful Jewish lobby' controlling US politics. In spite of his recent support for Israel, I don't think he's ever retracted this." It depends on the context. There certainly is a group of rich and influential Jewish Americans that have a non-trivial effect on American politics. If Farage said that this group is secretly in control, then he's wrong. But if he just said that a "powerful Jewish lobby" exists, then he's correct. | |||
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"In 2017 Nigel Farage was called out by the Campaign Against Antisemitism for referring to a 'powerful Jewish lobby' controlling US politics. In spite of his recent support for Israel, I don't think he's ever retracted this. It depends on the context. There certainly is a group of rich and influential Jewish Americans that have a non-trivial effect on American politics. If Farage said that this group is secretly in control, then he's wrong. But if he just said that a "powerful Jewish lobby" exists, then he's correct." The problem with these kind of statements is when you just focus on one group. It is usually done for a specific purpose. When doing this and referencing what ever you are saying to the Jewish people it's normally due to an antisemitic agenda. Now I'm not saying you are being antisemitic but when framing statements like this, without giving balance to it, gives weight to it being only a Jewish issue and it's not. Take your first about rich and influential Jews have a non trivial influence on American politics, that's true. However it's no truer than the non' trivial' influence other rich and influential religious groups have on American politics. By excluding them from your statement gives the impression that it's only this rich and influential group of Jews doing this when in fact ALL rich & influential groups try to exert as much control over American politics as possible. They are rich and influential and want to remain so, it's not exclusively Jewish. Look at how much influence the NRA, one of the most powerful lobbyists in the USA, exerts over American politics and they have nothing to do with religion. As for the other part of your statement, no matter what he said, by using the phrase 'powerful Jewish lobby' he is doing so to suit his agenda. He could have referred to 'powerful lobbyist' groups or even 'powerful religious lobbyist' groups but he didn't. Just like when he said Sunak didn't understand 'our' culture, he knew what he was doing, he knew he was being subtle but most of all he knew what others would think he meant and that's how he gets his racist message across. So sometimes I think people say stuff without thinking of impact, or influence, it can have on others. I think it just helps if you can give balanced statements rather than say something which can then be attributed to just one group when it obviously isn't. Mrs x | |||
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"I take neither side. I simply ask one question. AIPAC control both sides of American politics via senators & Congressmen etc. Our own British government is heavily influenced by both Labour Friends of Israel & Conservative Friends of Israel lobbying groups. How can this be right & allowed to happen? That our country is effectively a puppet of another state government/religion? MPs taken on trips abroad funded by these lobbyists. Corruption of the highest level. This isn't anti Israel, it should be ANY outside country being able to do this to Britain. Wonder if anyone would be allowed to ask about this on Question Time & introduce the wider electorate to the knowledge who really controls British politics regardless of whether you vote Tory or Labour. I'm sure a lot of people don't realise this situation exists. " I am very aware of what you have wrote and agree with your comments, only the USA has the same influence over the UK. | |||
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"I wasn't aware of the existence of these groups until a couple of days ago & it's very worrying. Look at AIPACs own website & Wikipedia like I did. That's why our government & opposition can't condemn the current situation in Gaza. It's not antisemitic to bring this to peoples attention. It's vital public information to allow people to decide for themselves. I had no idea & I'm horrified that any group can influence governments anywhere to such an extent. It's simply not right. Calling it antisemitic is just trying to silence it before it becomes too hot to handle. I'm not naive enough to get that plenty of organisations lobby governments but where religion drives politics to this extent, its beyond dangerous. The US is completely screwed up by religion in politics, we must not follow suit is all I'm saying. The reason it's antisemitic in nature is it's not 'balanced'. You are just pointing out Jewish lobbyists and painting them out to be 'controllin' our society. Why are you not doing the same about the dozens of Christian or Muslim lobbyists that exist in bot the States and the UK? You do know they exist don't you? It's a normal practice in politics , yet you are making out its sinister and spreading 'fear' against one particular group. This has been seen throughout history towards Jews and is antisemitic. Mrs x" we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. The difference between the jewish lobby groups and other lobby groups is the fact we do sell arms to Israel not to the other lobby groups, we do not send surveillance equipment, or rally to starve their enemies. The word Anti Semitic now means to me to critique Israel. | |||
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"In 2017 Nigel Farage was called out by the Campaign Against Antisemitism for referring to a 'powerful Jewish lobby' controlling US politics. In spite of his recent support for Israel, I don't think he's ever retracted this. Perhaps the Jewish lobby have a special relationship with the US? I've never took much interest in the Jewish argument when it comes to politics, as find most of the religious movements have to much power in politics imho I wouldn't think it's anymore 'special' than any of the Christian lobbyists. Mrs x" What christian organisation receives arms from us? Like Israel do? What christian land are we supporting to kill women and children? Like we well you Israel? | |||
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" we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. " Eh? Selling arms to oil-rich Middle Eastern countries? UK doesn't supply Muslim countries?! " The difference between the jewish lobby groups and other lobby groups is the fact we do sell arms to Israel not to the other lobby groups, we do not send surveillance equipment, or rally to starve their enemies. The word Anti Semitic now means to me to critique Israel." This seems... Uneducated and unhinged. Where to even begin unpicking that? Let's start with the interchangeability and conflation of Jewish and Israel. | |||
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" we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. " The UK's main arms deals go to the United States, India, France, Germany, Italy, Israel, Oman, South Africa, Turkey, South Korea, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, respectively. -Oman -Turkey -UAE -Saudi Arabia ...guess what they have in common? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_arms_export#:~:text=The%20UK's%20main%20arms%20deals,and%20fighter%20jets%2C%20machine%20guns. | |||
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" we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. The UK's main arms deals go to the United States, India, France, Germany, Italy, Israel, Oman, South Africa, Turkey, South Korea, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, respectively. -Oman -Turkey -UAE -Saudi Arabia ...guess what they have in common? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_arms_export#:~:text=The%20UK's%20main%20arms%20deals,and%20fighter%20jets%2C%20machine%20guns." What are their lobby groups that lobby our parliament. | |||
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"I wasn't aware of the existence of these groups until a couple of days ago & it's very worrying. Look at AIPACs own website & Wikipedia like I did. That's why our government & opposition can't condemn the current situation in Gaza. It's not antisemitic to bring this to peoples attention. It's vital public information to allow people to decide for themselves. I had no idea & I'm horrified that any group can influence governments anywhere to such an extent. It's simply not right. Calling it antisemitic is just trying to silence it before it becomes too hot to handle. I'm not naive enough to get that plenty of organisations lobby governments but where religion drives politics to this extent, its beyond dangerous. The US is completely screwed up by religion in politics, we must not follow suit is all I'm saying. The reason it's antisemitic in nature is it's not 'balanced'. You are just pointing out Jewish lobbyists and painting them out to be 'controllin' our society. Why are you not doing the same about the dozens of Christian or Muslim lobbyists that exist in bot the States and the UK? You do know they exist don't you? It's a normal practice in politics , yet you are making out its sinister and spreading 'fear' against one particular group. This has been seen throughout history towards Jews and is antisemitic. Mrs x we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. The difference between the jewish lobby groups and other lobby groups is the fact we do sell arms to Israel not to the other lobby groups, we do not send surveillance equipment, or rally to starve their enemies. The word Anti Semitic now means to me to critique Israel." We sell arms, ammunition, warplanes to Saudi Arabia, in huge numbers. Think you need a rethink. Mrs x | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right." This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x | |||
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"Slaps oneself and repeats, what am I doing? Your views are irrelevant, you views are only for the 25%. I have no need to be here." Bye, Mrs x | |||
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"we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group." Yes we do, we sell arms to Bangladesh, Bahrain, Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey, Oman, The UAE and Saudi Arabia - probably others too. "The word Anti Semitic now means to me to critique Israel." It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, so long as it meets several conditions. The criticism has to be similar criticism that's afforded to other countries - disproportionate criticism is, at the very least, suspect. The criticism doesn't call for the dismantling of the state of Israel, as that would mean displacing over 7 million Jews. The criticisms of Israel do not use Nazi imagery or comparisons to The Holocaust. But, if you criticise Netenyahu's policies, or state that you don't support his Likud party, that he's too right-wing and should seek better alternatives to the hostage situation, then that on its own would not be antisemitic. | |||
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"we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. Yes we do, we sell arms to Bangladesh, Bahrain, Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey, Oman, The UAE and Saudi Arabia - probably others too. The word Anti Semitic now means to me to critique Israel. It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, so long as it meets several conditions. The criticism has to be similar criticism that's afforded to other countries - disproportionate criticism is, at the very least, suspect. The criticism doesn't call for the dismantling of the state of Israel, as that would mean displacing over 7 million Jews. The criticisms of Israel do not use Nazi imagery or comparisons to The Holocaust. But, if you criticise Netenyahu's policies, or state that you don't support his Likud party, that he's too right-wing and should seek better alternatives to the hostage situation, then that on its own would not be antisemitic. " The word is now weaponised against people 75% of the population who are against this war and because they are against they have been tabled with the term making its true meaning meaningless. What it means to me now is war for = good Against=anti semitic Hence 75% of the UK population is anti semitic. | |||
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"we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. Yes we do, we sell arms to Bangladesh, Bahrain, Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey, Oman, The UAE and Saudi Arabia - probably others too. The word Anti Semitic now means to me to critique Israel. It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, so long as it meets several conditions. The criticism has to be similar criticism that's afforded to other countries - disproportionate criticism is, at the very least, suspect. The criticism doesn't call for the dismantling of the state of Israel, as that would mean displacing over 7 million Jews. The criticisms of Israel do not use Nazi imagery or comparisons to The Holocaust. But, if you criticise Netenyahu's policies, or state that you don't support his Likud party, that he's too right-wing and should seek better alternatives to the hostage situation, then that on its own would not be antisemitic. " The latter is an odd one given a large percentage of his own country men and women are extremely critical of Netanyahu and his policies.. | |||
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"The word is now weaponised against people 75% of the population who are against this war and because they are against they have been tabled with the term making its true meaning meaningless. What it means to me now is war for = good Against=anti semitic Hence 75% of the UK population is anti semitic." Go back to the opening post where I link to the Internationally accepted IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism. Do you think it's a conspiracy to silence critique, or do you think it's valid? | |||
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"we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. Yes we do, we sell arms to Bangladesh, Bahrain, Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey, Oman, The UAE and Saudi Arabia - probably others too. The word Anti Semitic now means to me to critique Israel. It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, so long as it meets several conditions. The criticism has to be similar criticism that's afforded to other countries - disproportionate criticism is, at the very least, suspect. The criticism doesn't call for the dismantling of the state of Israel, as that would mean displacing over 7 million Jews. The criticisms of Israel do not use Nazi imagery or comparisons to The Holocaust. But, if you criticise Netenyahu's policies, or state that you don't support his Likud party, that he's too right-wing and should seek better alternatives to the hostage situation, then that on its own would not be antisemitic. The latter is an odd one given a large percentage of his own country men and women are extremely critical of Netanyahu and his policies.. " He looking at a court case when all this is finally over, for corruption. He would of been voted out on his backside by now if it wasn't for this killing spree, and the hostages he never mentions them. | |||
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"we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. Yes we do, we sell arms to Bangladesh, Bahrain, Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey, Oman, The UAE and Saudi Arabia - probably others too. The word Anti Semitic now means to me to critique Israel. It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, so long as it meets several conditions. The criticism has to be similar criticism that's afforded to other countries - disproportionate criticism is, at the very least, suspect. The criticism doesn't call for the dismantling of the state of Israel, as that would mean displacing over 7 million Jews. The criticisms of Israel do not use Nazi imagery or comparisons to The Holocaust. But, if you criticise Netenyahu's policies, or state that you don't support his Likud party, that he's too right-wing and should seek better alternatives to the hostage situation, then that on its own would not be antisemitic. The latter is an odd one given a large percentage of his own country men and women are extremely critical of Netanyahu and his policies.. " Please ignore my inane rambling.. 
Note to self, read fully the question | |||
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"we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. Yes we do, we sell arms to Bangladesh, Bahrain, Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey, Oman, The UAE and Saudi Arabia - probably others too. The word Anti Semitic now means to me to critique Israel. It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, so long as it meets several conditions. The criticism has to be similar criticism that's afforded to other countries - disproportionate criticism is, at the very least, suspect. The criticism doesn't call for the dismantling of the state of Israel, as that would mean displacing over 7 million Jews. The criticisms of Israel do not use Nazi imagery or comparisons to The Holocaust. But, if you criticise Netenyahu's policies, or state that you don't support his Likud party, that he's too right-wing and should seek better alternatives to the hostage situation, then that on its own would not be antisemitic. The latter is an odd one given a large percentage of his own country men and women are extremely critical of Netanyahu and his policies.. He looking at a court case when all this is finally over, for corruption. He would of been voted out on his backside by now if it wasn't for this killing spree, and the hostages he never mentions them." Coincidentally it does protect his arse as his countries soldiers and innocents are killed yes.. Plus Hamas.. | |||
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"The word is now weaponised against people 75% of the population who are against this war and because they are against they have been tabled with the term making its true meaning meaningless. What it means to me now is war for = good Against=anti semitic Hence 75% of the UK population is anti semitic. Go back to the opening post where I link to the Internationally accepted IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism. Do you think it's a conspiracy to silence critique, or do you think it's valid? " I believe when I see evil raise its head I can be allowed to call it out, if that's Israel then my views are anti semitic. Even though my views are about the behaviour and the mass killing of people I have been called anti semitic on this forum. | |||
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"we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. Yes we do, we sell arms to Bangladesh, Bahrain, Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey, Oman, The UAE and Saudi Arabia - probably others too. The word Anti Semitic now means to me to critique Israel. It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, so long as it meets several conditions. The criticism has to be similar criticism that's afforded to other countries - disproportionate criticism is, at the very least, suspect. The criticism doesn't call for the dismantling of the state of Israel, as that would mean displacing over 7 million Jews. The criticisms of Israel do not use Nazi imagery or comparisons to The Holocaust. But, if you criticise Netenyahu's policies, or state that you don't support his Likud party, that he's too right-wing and should seek better alternatives to the hostage situation, then that on its own would not be antisemitic. The latter is an odd one given a large percentage of his own country men and women are extremely critical of Netanyahu and his policies.. He looking at a court case when all this is finally over, for corruption. He would of been voted out on his backside by now if it wasn't for this killing spree, and the hostages he never mentions them. Coincidentally it does protect his arse as his countries soldiers and innocents are killed yes.. Plus Hamas.." It keeps him in power and out of the hands who want to prosecute him. Hence this is one reason his own electorate want him out and this was pre 7th. | |||
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"The word is now weaponised against people 75% of the population who are against this war and because they are against they have been tabled with the term making its true meaning meaningless. What it means to me now is war for = good Against=anti semitic Hence 75% of the UK population is anti semitic. Go back to the opening post where I link to the Internationally accepted IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism. Do you think it's a conspiracy to silence critique, or do you think it's valid? I believe when I see evil raise its head I can be allowed to call it out, if that's Israel then my views are anti semitic. Even though my views are about the behaviour and the mass killing of people I have been called anti semitic on this forum." Sounds to me like you are Antizionist not Antisemitic. I personally don’t have an opinion on the Middle East. I do think too many of our service people have been killed and maimed over there, fighting wars over oil. | |||
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"Sounds to me like you are Antizionist not Antisemitic." They are very closely linked. A recent survey of British Jews showed that 80% considered themselves to be Zionists, with only 6% saying categorically that they weren't. The Zionist movement was initially about seeking a refuge for Jews in their ancient homeland. Therefore, standing against the aims of Zionism is standing against the rights of Jews for self-determination. | |||
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"Sounds to me like you are Antizionist not Antisemitic.They are very closely linked. A recent survey of British Jews showed that 80% considered themselves to be Zionists, with only 6% saying categorically that they weren't. The Zionist movement was initially about seeking a refuge for Jews in their ancient homeland. Therefore, standing against the aims of Zionism is standing against the rights of Jews for self-determination." I do not care or ponder which label you wish to put upon me, I simply do not like and find upsetting that people are being killed in a revenge act, by a group of people who had suffered the same. | |||
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"Sounds to me like you are Antizionist not Antisemitic.They are very closely linked. A recent survey of British Jews showed that 80% considered themselves to be Zionists, with only 6% saying categorically that they weren't. The Zionist movement was initially about seeking a refuge for Jews in their ancient homeland. Therefore, standing against the aims of Zionism is standing against the rights of Jews for self-determination. I do not care or ponder which label you wish to put upon me, I simply do not like and find upsetting that people are being killed in a revenge act, by a group of people who had suffered the same." Hold on, I have no wish to put a label on anyone. I just thought the accusation of antisemitism was unfair. | |||
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"Sounds to me like you are Antizionist not Antisemitic.They are very closely linked. A recent survey of British Jews showed that 80% considered themselves to be Zionists, with only 6% saying categorically that they weren't. The Zionist movement was initially about seeking a refuge for Jews in their ancient homeland. Therefore, standing against the aims of Zionism is standing against the rights of Jews for self-determination. I do not care or ponder which label you wish to put upon me, I simply do not like and find upsetting that people are being killed in a revenge act, by a group of people who had suffered the same. Hold on, I have no wish to put a label on anyone. I just thought the accusation of antisemitism was unfair." I hear you, was referring to the post under yourself who reads like, my views are against self determination, well if self determination is to allow to kill then so be it. | |||
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"Sounds to me like you are Antizionist not Antisemitic.They are very closely linked. A recent survey of British Jews showed that 80% considered themselves to be Zionists, with only 6% saying categorically that they weren't. The Zionist movement was initially about seeking a refuge for Jews in their ancient homeland. Therefore, standing against the aims of Zionism is standing against the rights of Jews for self-determination. I do not care or ponder which label you wish to put upon me, I simply do not like and find upsetting that people are being killed in a revenge act, by a group of people who had suffered the same. Hold on, I have no wish to put a label on anyone. I just thought the accusation of antisemitism was unfair. I hear you, was referring to the post under yourself who reads like, my views are against self determination, well if self determination is to allow to kill then so be it." This thread is not about the war or even Israel. It's about antisemitism. There are Jews all over the world who suffer this, even Jews who have never been to Israel. Could you please not go off topic? Mrs x | |||
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" I do not care or ponder which label you wish to put upon me, I simply do not like and find upsetting that people are being killed in a revenge act, by a group of people who had suffered the same." You put the label on yourself tbh. Either you're stuck in ideology or hideously misinformed. | |||
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" I do not care or ponder which label you wish to put upon me, I simply do not like and find upsetting that people are being killed in a revenge act, by a group of people who had suffered the same. You put the label on yourself tbh. Either you're stuck in ideology or hideously misinformed." Neither my man neither, I am in the 75% if that makes us whatever you wish, then wish it. As I state before this word is now a weapon against anyone who has no support for Israel, so when it had meaning for me the way I see it now used. To silence those who might not want to be tabled as such, well I am not bothered I am against murder of innocents who had no weapons in their hands, and that alone makes me anti semitic in the supporters eyes. Now the poster before you is stating this is off topic in other irrelevant. | |||
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" Neither my man neither, I am in the 75% if that makes us whatever you wish, then wish it. As I state before this word is now a weapon against anyone who has no support for Israel, so when it had meaning for me the way I see it now used. To silence those who might not want to be tabled as such, well I am not bothered I am against murder of innocents who had no weapons in their hands, and that alone makes me anti semitic in the supporters eyes. Now the poster before you is stating this is off topic in other irrelevant. " By conflating Judaism with Israeli policy you are assuming that all Jews feel the same, like some kind of hive mind. That is antisemitic. | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right.This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x" This thread ironically exposes the absolute amoral deceit and lack of morals! Sajdai Arabia, not a democracy, where brutal executions take place for gays, bi etc by getting their heads cut off possibly by a blade made in the UK has huge trade deals with the UK. Isreal, a racist colonial state that's supported by the west because it serves the west's interests This all just goes to show the pretence of individuals and groups in the UK that shows the the rot and bullshit to justify the above in this fucked up country. | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right.This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x This thread ironically exposes the absolute amoral deceit and lack of morals! Sajdai Arabia, not a democracy, where brutal executions take place for gays, bi etc by getting their heads cut off possibly by a blade made in the UK has huge trade deals with the UK. Isreal, a racist colonial state that's supported by the west because it serves the west's interests This all just goes to show the pretence of individuals and groups in the UK that shows the the rot and bullshit to justify the above in this fucked up country. " The thread is about religion and the effects of discrimination and hatred towards people of that faith. It's not about geography, there are millions of Jews that don't live in Israel. Nothing to do with where you live but what faith you follow. Sorry to say this Ben but by the standards above it would appear you are antisemitic in your outlook. | |||
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" Neither my man neither, I am in the 75% if that makes us whatever you wish, then wish it. As I state before this word is now a weapon against anyone who has no support for Israel, so when it had meaning for me the way I see it now used. To silence those who might not want to be tabled as such, well I am not bothered I am against murder of innocents who had no weapons in their hands, and that alone makes me anti semitic in the supporters eyes. Now the poster before you is stating this is off topic in other irrelevant. By conflating Judaism with Israeli policy you are assuming that all Jews feel the same, like some kind of hive mind. That is antisemitic." I assume nothing you do as I have said nothing of the sort. Irrelevant. But if you want to call me anti semitic for speaking out for those who cannot help themselves go ahead, I have explained my view and why I have thus view. So knock yourself out call me what you will. 25% club. | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right.This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x This thread ironically exposes the absolute amoral deceit and lack of morals! Sajdai Arabia, not a democracy, where brutal executions take place for gays, bi etc by getting their heads cut off possibly by a blade made in the UK has huge trade deals with the UK. Isreal, a racist colonial state that's supported by the west because it serves the west's interests This all just goes to show the pretence of individuals and groups in the UK that shows the the rot and bullshit to justify the above in this fucked up country. The thread is about religion and the effects of discrimination and hatred towards people of that faith. It's not about geography, there are millions of Jews that don't live in Israel. Nothing to do with where you live but what faith you follow. Sorry to say this Ben but by the standards above it would appear you are antisemitic in your outlook. " Are you sure I am Ben? Because you have accused me of being another poster in the past. Ho I forgot your last answer to that question was that you didn't care, even though you were the accuser. 25% | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right.This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x This thread ironically exposes the absolute amoral deceit and lack of morals! Sajdai Arabia, not a democracy, where brutal executions take place for gays, bi etc by getting their heads cut off possibly by a blade made in the UK has huge trade deals with the UK. Isreal, a racist colonial state that's supported by the west because it serves the west's interests This all just goes to show the pretence of individuals and groups in the UK that shows the the rot and bullshit to justify the above in this fucked up country. The thread is about religion and the effects of discrimination and hatred towards people of that faith. It's not about geography, there are millions of Jews that don't live in Israel. Nothing to do with where you live but what faith you follow. Sorry to say this Ben but by the standards above it would appear you are antisemitic in your outlook. " I will wear that slur with pride and hold it up as proof of those who speak against what Israel are carrying out are anti semitic. And that is 75% of the populous. Your in the 25% so are you a warmonger, do you think your attitude towards this conflict (well murder for it to be a conflict the innocent people would have to at least have a gun in their hands and not died unarmed), is making attitudes towards Jewish people of faith any better? | |||
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"Isreal, a racist colonial state" Let me remind you, and this is quoted directly from the internationally recognised definition of antisemitism, that is accepted (amongst others) by both the Labour and Conservative parties: "Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor." | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right.This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x This thread ironically exposes the absolute amoral deceit and lack of morals! Sajdai Arabia, not a democracy, where brutal executions take place for gays, bi etc by getting their heads cut off possibly by a blade made in the UK has huge trade deals with the UK. Isreal, a racist colonial state that's supported by the west because it serves the west's interests This all just goes to show the pretence of individuals and groups in the UK that shows the the rot and bullshit to justify the above in this fucked up country. The thread is about religion and the effects of discrimination and hatred towards people of that faith. It's not about geography, there are millions of Jews that don't live in Israel. Nothing to do with where you live but what faith you follow. Sorry to say this Ben but by the standards above it would appear you are antisemitic in your outlook. I will wear that slur with pride and hold it up as proof of those who speak against what Israel are carrying out are anti semitic. And that is 75% of the populous. Your in the 25% so are you a warmonger, do you think your attitude towards this conflict (well murder for it to be a conflict the innocent people would have to at least have a gun in their hands and not died unarmed), is making attitudes towards Jewish people of faith any better? " I'm not talking about any conflict as that's not mentioned by the OP. Your answers are becoming more and more nonsensical. Mrs x | |||
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" we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. The UK's main arms deals go to the United States, India, France, Germany, Italy, Israel, Oman, South Africa, Turkey, South Korea, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, respectively. -Oman -Turkey -UAE -Saudi Arabia ...guess what they have in common? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_arms_export#:~:text=The%20UK's%20main%20arms%20deals,and%20fighter%20jets%2C%20machine%20guns. What are their lobby groups that lobby our parliament." If you're taking about political lobbying based upon religion: Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK https://mpacuk.org/ Top of their page: In the lead-up to the 2024 UK elections, MPACUK is embarking on a strategy aimed at identifying and ousting Zionist MPs from their positions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Public_Affairs_Committee_UK ALL religions and special interest groups lobby where they can. Jews are not unique in this. https://mcb.org.uk https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Forum_of_Britain Many are specific to political parties: https://www.labourmuslims.org/ https://www.conservativemuslimforum.org/ If you're taking about a lobby for a country: https://www.sbjbc.org/ See also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_British_Chamber_of_Commerce https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Cooperation_Council Most countries lobby with various delegations at the government level, or business groups, etc. Israel is not unique in this. It just seems to make the news more and feed into global conspiracy theories a lot. | |||
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" we do not sell arms to any muslim country regardless of their lobby group. The UK's main arms deals go to the United States, India, France, Germany, Italy, Israel, Oman, South Africa, Turkey, South Korea, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, respectively. -Oman -Turkey -UAE -Saudi Arabia ...guess what they have in common? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_arms_export#:~:text=The%20UK's%20main%20arms%20deals,and%20fighter%20jets%2C%20machine%20guns. What are their lobby groups that lobby our parliament. If you're taking about political lobbying based upon religion: Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK https://mpacuk.org/ Top of their page: In the lead-up to the 2024 UK elections, MPACUK is embarking on a strategy aimed at identifying and ousting Zionist MPs from their positions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Public_Affairs_Committee_UK ALL religions and special interest groups lobby where they can. Jews are not unique in this. https://mcb.org.uk https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Forum_of_Britain Many are specific to political parties: https://www.labourmuslims.org/ https://www.conservativemuslimforum.org/ If you're taking about a lobby for a country: https://www.sbjbc.org/ See also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_British_Chamber_of_Commerce https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Cooperation_Council Most countries lobby with various delegations at the government level, or business groups, etc. Israel is not unique in this. It just seems to make the news more and feed into global conspiracy theories a lot. " Yes thank you, Which one of those lobby for arms sales? | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right.This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x This thread ironically exposes the absolute amoral deceit and lack of morals! Sajdai Arabia, not a democracy, where brutal executions take place for gays, bi etc by getting their heads cut off possibly by a blade made in the UK has huge trade deals with the UK. Isreal, a racist colonial state that's supported by the west because it serves the west's interests This all just goes to show the pretence of individuals and groups in the UK that shows the the rot and bullshit to justify the above in this fucked up country. The thread is about religion and the effects of discrimination and hatred towards people of that faith. It's not about geography, there are millions of Jews that don't live in Israel. Nothing to do with where you live but what faith you follow. Sorry to say this Ben but by the standards above it would appear you are antisemitic in your outlook. I will wear that slur with pride and hold it up as proof of those who speak against what Israel are carrying out are anti semitic. And that is 75% of the populous. Your in the 25% so are you a warmonger, do you think your attitude towards this conflict (well murder for it to be a conflict the innocent people would have to at least have a gun in their hands and not died unarmed), is making attitudes towards Jewish people of faith any better? I'm not talking about any conflict as that's not mentioned by the OP. Your answers are becoming more and more nonsensical. Mrs x" All I am asking is does this help supporting or speaking for the killing of so many people. I am human and I like to live so why would I deny it to others? | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right.This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x This thread ironically exposes the absolute amoral deceit and lack of morals! Sajdai Arabia, not a democracy, where brutal executions take place for gays, bi etc by getting their heads cut off possibly by a blade made in the UK has huge trade deals with the UK. Isreal, a racist colonial state that's supported by the west because it serves the west's interests This all just goes to show the pretence of individuals and groups in the UK that shows the the rot and bullshit to justify the above in this fucked up country. The thread is about religion and the effects of discrimination and hatred towards people of that faith. It's not about geography, there are millions of Jews that don't live in Israel. Nothing to do with where you live but what faith you follow. Sorry to say this Ben but by the standards above it would appear you are antisemitic in your outlook. " Who are you to judge me though. I would say that you are heavily driven by opinion to suit the narrative of your entrenched rhetoric, rather than factual real world events. | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right.This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x This thread ironically exposes the absolute amoral deceit and lack of morals! Sajdai Arabia, not a democracy, where brutal executions take place for gays, bi etc by getting their heads cut off possibly by a blade made in the UK has huge trade deals with the UK. Isreal, a racist colonial state that's supported by the west because it serves the west's interests This all just goes to show the pretence of individuals and groups in the UK that shows the the rot and bullshit to justify the above in this fucked up country. The thread is about religion and the effects of discrimination and hatred towards people of that faith. It's not about geography, there are millions of Jews that don't live in Israel. Nothing to do with where you live but what faith you follow. Sorry to say this Ben but by the standards above it would appear you are antisemitic in your outlook. Who are you to judge me though. I would say that you are heavily driven by opinion to suit the narrative of your entrenched rhetoric, rather than factual real world events." I am not judging but looking at the independant definition given by the OP ot would appear you are. Also why do you keep referring back to the war in Gaza? This thread is not about that, it's about Judaism and the persecution suffered by people across the world who suffer from this. You have no empathy for the millions across the world, if not in Israel, who have to deal with this on a daily basis? Mrs x | |||
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"There is one thing that the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism omits. Antisemites often deny their antisemitism despite it being obviously demonstrated to any reasonable mind." 25% | |||
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"There is one thing that the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism omits. Antisemites often deny their antisemitism despite it being obviously demonstrated to any reasonable mind." That would never happen on here, surely not lol Mrs x | |||
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"There is one thing that the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism omits. Antisemites often deny their antisemitism despite it being obviously demonstrated to any reasonable mind." I think it's a virus of sorts. Like, they get so infected by popular ideas about Zionism, that they end up equating it to fascism. And, by the time they've had this issues explained properly, it's become so engrained that they just don't want to believe it. Then, of course, there's shite maths - the idea of a genocide happening to a population that keeps getting bigger or thinking this is the biggest conflict in history, in spite of several bigger conflicts occurring at the same time. If only they'd step back from their own poisoned minds, to ask why they're so obsessed with this one particular tiny country surrounded by hostile states. 
If you believe that Zionism is controlling the world, that Jews have a disprortionately powerful lobby, that Israel is a racist / imperialistic state - in spite of all their wars being defensive - or if you want them all to be 'sent back to Europe' or use terms like 'Zionazi' or put a swastika into an Israeli flag, then yes, you're antisemitic. | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right.This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x This thread ironically exposes the absolute amoral deceit and lack of morals! Sajdai Arabia, not a democracy, where brutal executions take place for gays, bi etc by getting their heads cut off possibly by a blade made in the UK has huge trade deals with the UK. Isreal, a racist colonial state that's supported by the west because it serves the west's interests This all just goes to show the pretence of individuals and groups in the UK that shows the the rot and bullshit to justify the above in this fucked up country. The thread is about religion and the effects of discrimination and hatred towards people of that faith. It's not about geography, there are millions of Jews that don't live in Israel. Nothing to do with where you live but what faith you follow. Sorry to say this Ben but by the standards above it would appear you are antisemitic in your outlook. Who are you to judge me though. I would say that you are heavily driven by opinion to suit the narrative of your entrenched rhetoric, rather than factual real world events.I am not judging but looking at the independant definition given by the OP ot would appear you are. Also why do you keep referring back to the war in Gaza? This thread is not about that, it's about Judaism and the persecution suffered by people across the world who suffer from this. You have no empathy for the millions across the world, if not in Israel, who have to deal with this on a daily basis? Mrs x" Isreal are the victim of their aphartied racist state which you support, and that's nothing to do with religion! Orthodox Jews disagree with it. Another example of western Christian meddling in others affairs are the India Pakistan atrocity.. forcing people into separate countries which you've not mentioned either. Christians get I'll treated accross the world to yet here you are out of " shear coincidence" out of all the religions in the world let's talk about.. Erm .. i know .. Jews! wow what a surprise! | |||
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"Finally when 75% of us do not want the government to continue arm sales to Israel, but our government ignores the fact coming up to an "Democratic Election" is an example of why these lobby groups exists, to serve their interests over our democratic right.This thread is about religion not geography. You are confusing the two. Mrs x This thread ironically exposes the absolute amoral deceit and lack of morals! Sajdai Arabia, not a democracy, where brutal executions take place for gays, bi etc by getting their heads cut off possibly by a blade made in the UK has huge trade deals with the UK. Isreal, a racist colonial state that's supported by the west because it serves the west's interests This all just goes to show the pretence of individuals and groups in the UK that shows the the rot and bullshit to justify the above in this fucked up country. The thread is about religion and the effects of discrimination and hatred towards people of that faith. It's not about geography, there are millions of Jews that don't live in Israel. Nothing to do with where you live but what faith you follow. Sorry to say this Ben but by the standards above it would appear you are antisemitic in your outlook. Who are you to judge me though. I would say that you are heavily driven by opinion to suit the narrative of your entrenched rhetoric, rather than factual real world events.I am not judging but looking at the independant definition given by the OP ot would appear you are. Also why do you keep referring back to the war in Gaza? This thread is not about that, it's about Judaism and the persecution suffered by people across the world who suffer from this. You have no empathy for the millions across the world, if not in Israel, who have to deal with this on a daily basis? Mrs x Isreal are the victim of their aphartied racist state which you support, and that's nothing to do with religion! Orthodox Jews disagree with it. Another example of western Christian meddling in others affairs are the India Pakistan atrocity.. forcing people into separate countries which you've not mentioned either. Christians get I'll treated accross the world to yet here you are out of " shear coincidence" out of all the religions in the world let's talk about.. Erm .. i know .. Jews! wow what a surprise! "Sorry I find your posts very hard to understand. They never seem to focus on the issue at hand. You always seem to answer any question with 'Israel is bad, Israel is evil'. It's hard to have a discussion with you like that when you just answer everything with similar replies. Got to ask do you do this in the real world when asked questions or do you just save your antisemitic views for the forums? So please stick to the OP original point about Judaism the religion and not continue to bash Israel, Zionism or the current conflict. If you wish to discuss this start your own thread. Mrs x | |||
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"There is one thing that the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism omits. Antisemites often deny their antisemitism despite it being obviously demonstrated to any reasonable mind. I think it's a virus of sorts. Like, they get so infected by popular ideas about Zionism, that they end up equating it to fascism. And, by the time they've had this issues explained properly, it's become so engrained that they just don't want to believe it. Then, of course, there's shite maths - the idea of a genocide happening to a population that keeps getting bigger or thinking this is the biggest conflict in history, in spite of several bigger conflicts occurring at the same time. If only they'd step back from their own poisoned minds, to ask why they're so obsessed with this one particular tiny country surrounded by hostile states.
If you believe that Zionism is controlling the world, that Jews have a disprortionately powerful lobby, that Israel is a racist / imperialistic state - in spite of all their wars being defensive - or if you want them all to be 'sent back to Europe' or use terms like 'Zionazi' or put a swastika into an Israeli flag, then yes, you're antisemitic."Exactly, well pit. Mrs x | |||
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"There is one thing that the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism omits. Antisemites often deny their antisemitism despite it being obviously demonstrated to any reasonable mind. 25%" 0.2% | |||
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"There is one thing that the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism omits. Antisemites often deny their antisemitism despite it being obviously demonstrated to any reasonable mind. 25% 0.2%" What's with all the math? Mrs x | |||
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"There is one thing that the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism omits. Antisemites often deny their antisemitism despite it being obviously demonstrated to any reasonable mind. 25% 0.2%What's with all the math? Mrs x" The worldwide proportion of Jews. If someone is happy to discount the 25%, it's no suprise they're happy to disregard or trample over the 0.2%. | |||
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"There is one thing that the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism omits. Antisemites often deny their antisemitism despite it being obviously demonstrated to any reasonable mind. 25% 0.2%What's with all the math? Mrs x The worldwide proportion of Jews. If someone is happy to discount the 25%, it's no suprise they're happy to disregard or trample over the 0.2%." His 25% is the figure he believes are in support of the Gazan war. He then equates the 75% of UK citizens who oppose the war as righteous. He postulates that those in this 25% are evil, child killing wannabes, who support an evil regime. He does not believe that a country has the right to defend its sovereignty if civilians are injured. So that's why he keeps quoting 25%, but where this figure comes from I do not know, I just know nobody asked me. Yet he is adamant and antisemitic judging by the original post of the OP. Mrs x | |||
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"There is one thing that the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism omits. Antisemites often deny their antisemitism despite it being obviously demonstrated to any reasonable mind. 25% 0.2%What's with all the math? Mrs x The worldwide proportion of Jews. If someone is happy to discount the 25%, it's no suprise they're happy to disregard or trample over the 0.2%.His 25% is the figure he believes are in support of the Gazan war. He then equates the 75% of UK citizens who oppose the war as righteous. He postulates that those in this 25% are evil, child killing wannabes, who support an evil regime. He does not believe that a country has the right to defend its sovereignty if civilians are injured. So that's why he keeps quoting 25%, but where this figure comes from I do not know, I just know nobody asked me. Yet he is adamant and antisemitic judging by the original post of the OP. Mrs x" If I didn't know any better I'd say this thread is to garnish support for the Israeli regime. In some way justifying and normalising the injustice of the regime which delivers injustice and death on a routine daily basis while using antisemic accusations to anyone , including orthodox Jews. I would say that people like yourself are un-conscious racists at heart , abandoning arabs in support of a white European colony. That's your viewpoint and so be it, but I find it ridiculous that you complain that others call it out for what it actually is | |||
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"socialists have always hated JewsMany of the early Zionists were socialists, but what we see today seems to be this weird blending of far-left idealism and far right islamo-fascism. "Most of the early settlers in British run Palestine were idealistic socialists setting up all of the Kibbutzim based on these ideals. The European left were strong supporters of Israel in the early days of the state when they were perceived to be the underdogs. Palestinians are now considered to be the people who are bullied and oppressed. The problem the left have is that many of them are unable to distinguish between justified criticism of Israel and antisemitism. | |||
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" If I didn't know any better I'd say this thread is to garnish support for the Israeli regime." It's to call out the people who use Israel as a means to voice their inherent dislike of Jews. "abandoning arabs in support of a white European colony." Racist on three counts: 1. Thinking that habitation rights should be determined by skin colour. 2. Incorrectly convinced that everyone in Israel is white, in spite of it having more Middle East descended Jews than European descended Jews. 3. Conflating a refugee movement with settler colonialism, in spite of no European flag ever being planted in their name. | |||
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"socialists have always hated JewsMany of the early Zionists were socialists, but what we see today seems to be this weird blending of far-left idealism and far right islamo-fascism. Most of the early settlers in British run Palestine were idealistic socialists setting up all of the Kibbutzim based on these ideals.
The European left were strong supporters of Israel in the early days of the state when they were perceived to be the underdogs.
Palestinians are now considered to be the people who are bullied and oppressed.
The problem the left have is that many of them are unable to distinguish between justified criticism of Israel and antisemitism."I'm not stating anything about Israel. I'm just commentating on the thread, which is about antisemitism. Antisemitism isn't confined by borders or to just one part of the world. It affects millions all over the world. If you want to discuss that here then do so. If you want to discuss all things Israeli then you are free to start a new thread. Mrs x | |||
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" If I didn't know any better I'd say this thread is to garnish support for the Israeli regime. It's to call out the people who use Israel as a means to voice their inherent dislike of Jews. abandoning arabs in support of a white European colony. Racist on three counts: 1. Thinking that habitation rights should be determined by skin colour. 2. Incorrectly convinced that everyone in Israel is white, in spite of it having more Middle East descended Jews than European descended Jews. 3. Conflating a refugee movement with settler colonialism, in spite of no European flag ever being planted in their name. " There's also the small matter of 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and they choose to do so freely. Mrs x | |||
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" If I didn't know any better I'd say this thread is to garnish support for the Israeli regime. It's to call out the people who use Israel as a means to voice their inherent dislike of Jews. abandoning arabs in support of a white European colony. Racist on three counts: 1. Thinking that habitation rights should be determined by skin colour. 2. Incorrectly convinced that everyone in Israel is white, in spite of it having more Middle East descended Jews than European descended Jews. 3. Conflating a refugee movement with settler colonialism, in spite of no European flag ever being planted in their name. There's also the small matter of 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and they choose to do so freely. Mrs x" This sounds racist from you. Oh yes perhaps the Gazans should move out and help Isreal with it's illegal occupstion and land expansion and Help the Isreal regime ethnically cleans land for more European settlers to make themselves comfy in. A lot of people of Jewish faith (the moral ones with a sense of justice) disagree with you. | |||
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" There's also the small matter of 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and they choose to do so freely. Mrs x" And they all enjoy more freedom than anyone else in any other Arab country. Bloody Jews, being all democratic and stuff.  | |||
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" If I didn't know any better I'd say this thread is to garnish support for the Israeli regime. It's to call out the people who use Israel as a means to voice their inherent dislike of Jews. abandoning arabs in support of a white European colony. Racist on three counts: 1. Thinking that habitation rights should be determined by skin colour. 2. Incorrectly convinced that everyone in Israel is white, in spite of it having more Middle East descended Jews than European descended Jews. 3. Conflating a refugee movement with settler colonialism, in spite of no European flag ever being planted in their name. There's also the small matter of 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and they choose to do so freely. Mrs x This sounds racist from you. Oh yes perhaps the Gazans should move out and help Isreal with it's illegal occupstion and land expansion and Help the Isreal regime ethnically cleans land for more European settlers to make themselves comfy in. A lot of people of Jewish faith (the moral ones with a sense of justice) disagree with you. " So there are good Jews and bad Jews and the good Jews should declare Israel evil/racist to prove themselves? | |||
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" If I didn't know any better I'd say this thread is to garnish support for the Israeli regime. It's to call out the people who use Israel as a means to voice their inherent dislike of Jews. abandoning arabs in support of a white European colony. Racist on three counts: 1. Thinking that habitation rights should be determined by skin colour. 2. Incorrectly convinced that everyone in Israel is white, in spite of it having more Middle East descended Jews than European descended Jews. 3. Conflating a refugee movement with settler colonialism, in spite of no European flag ever being planted in their name. There's also the small matter of 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and they choose to do so freely. Mrs x This sounds racist from you. Oh yes perhaps the Gazans should move out and help Isreal with it's illegal occupstion and land expansion and Help the Isreal regime ethnically cleans land for more European settlers to make themselves comfy in. A lot of people of Jewish faith (the moral ones with a sense of justice) disagree with you. " Sorry but I don't understand what you are saying, the way you phrase things is hard to read. Sure I'm not the only one. Just sounds like 'Israel bad, Israel evil"... it's boring to be fair. Mrs x | |||
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" If I didn't know any better I'd say this thread is to garnish support for the Israeli regime. It's to call out the people who use Israel as a means to voice their inherent dislike of Jews. abandoning arabs in support of a white European colony. Racist on three counts: 1. Thinking that habitation rights should be determined by skin colour. 2. Incorrectly convinced that everyone in Israel is white, in spite of it having more Middle East descended Jews than European descended Jews. 3. Conflating a refugee movement with settler colonialism, in spite of no European flag ever being planted in their name. There's also the small matter of 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and they choose to do so freely. Mrs x This sounds racist from you. Oh yes perhaps the Gazans should move out and help Isreal with it's illegal occupstion and land expansion and Help the Isreal regime ethnically cleans land for more European settlers to make themselves comfy in. A lot of people of Jewish faith (the moral ones with a sense of justice) disagree with you. So there are good Jews and bad Jews and the good Jews should declare Israel evil/racist to prove themselves?" Your missing the point.. Bad people use Judaism whether Jews or otherwise to condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime (as displayed here) Good people (Jews or otherwise) need to call it out for what it is.. a good example being Jews with "not in my name" t shirts not because of their faith but because they know th difference between right and wrong! Just like any other well balanced moral human being seeing injustice being metered to to other human beings. Something you and others on here miss. | |||
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"Your missing the point.. Bad people use Judaism whether Jews or otherwise to condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime (as displayed here) Good people (Jews or otherwise) need to call it out for what it is.. a good example being Jews with "not in my name" t shirts not because of their faith but because they know th difference between right and wrong! Just like any other well balanced moral human being seeing injustice being metered to to other human beings. Something you and others on here miss. " You mean, a bit like all the Muslims who marched for peace after 9/11 and 5/7? (hint: they didn't because it wasn't their issue). Meanwhile 80% of Jews consider themselves to be Zionists and have to deal with tiresome antisemitic liars like yourself. | |||
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" Bad people use Judaism whether Jews or otherwise to condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime (as displayed here) " Judaism is a set of beliefs, not a group of people. When do non-Jews ever use Judaism (set of beliefs) to "condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime"? " Good people (Jews or otherwise) need to call it out for what it is.. a good example being Jews with "not in my name" t shirts not because of their faith but because they know th difference between right and wrong! " So, to be good, Jews should feel the need to denounce Israel. " Just like any other well balanced moral human being seeing injustice being metered to to other human beings. Something you and others on here miss. " If you're making it personal ("you and others on here miss"), back that up with a factual and specific reference. | |||
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" Bad people use Judaism whether Jews or otherwise to condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime (as displayed here) Judaism is a set of beliefs, not a group of people. When do non-Jews ever use Judaism (set of beliefs) to "condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime"? Good people (Jews or otherwise) need to call it out for what it is.. a good example being Jews with "not in my name" t shirts not because of their faith but because they know th difference between right and wrong! So, to be good, Jews should feel the need to denounce Israel. Just like any other well balanced moral human being seeing injustice being metered to to other human beings. Something you and others on here miss. If you're making it personal ("you and others on here miss"), back that up with a factual and specific reference." Look up the articles of the Geneva convention War crimes The ICC Google is your friend, as is common morality and the ability to see injustice everywhere in the world. Im sure your parents taught you similar. | |||
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" Bad people use Judaism whether Jews or otherwise to condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime (as displayed here) Judaism is a set of beliefs, not a group of people. When do non-Jews ever use Judaism (set of beliefs) to "condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime"? Good people (Jews or otherwise) need to call it out for what it is.. a good example being Jews with "not in my name" t shirts not because of their faith but because they know th difference between right and wrong! So, to be good, Jews should feel the need to denounce Israel. Just like any other well balanced moral human being seeing injustice being metered to to other human beings. Something you and others on here miss. If you're making it personal ("you and others on here miss"), back that up with a factual and specific reference." I've a question for you.. In your opinion.. if a Jew stole something from an Arab, let's a bicycle.. has a crime been committed? | |||
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" If I were a palistinian Iranian etc.. I'd be anti-semitic. Terrorist etc.. " Very possibly. There is outright anti-Semitism taught in schools in both those places. It is well documented. Moreover, there is specific government support for dictionary-definition terrorism by both of those governments. Moreover, it existed before the state of Israel. " If I were a Jew demonstrating against the Israeli regime I'd be labelled a nutter " There are thousands of Israelis who demonstrate against Netanyahu weekly. It is their right, they are free to do so and it is a valid political choice. Try doing that in Iran or Gaza. They are not nutters. Who says that? " So what is so special about the Israeli regime that people flock to their defence? " Possibly the fact that a country that accounts for 0.004% of the world's land area, associated with a religion that accounts for 0.2% of the world's population, seems to occupy a disproportionate amount of hatred given all the other atrocities and wrongdoing in the world, which dwarf the events in Israel in terms of both absolute numbers and brutality. The conclusion of many is that the intense hatred and vitriol for Israel (and often Jews) is disproportionate. The defence is a response to those who flock to attack. In droves. Disproportionately. | |||
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" Bad people use Judaism whether Jews or otherwise to condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime (as displayed here) Judaism is a set of beliefs, not a group of people. When do non-Jews ever use Judaism (set of beliefs) to "condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime"? Good people (Jews or otherwise) need to call it out for what it is.. a good example being Jews with "not in my name" t shirts not because of their faith but because they know th difference between right and wrong! So, to be good, Jews should feel the need to denounce Israel. Just like any other well balanced moral human being seeing injustice being metered to to other human beings. Something you and others on here miss. If you're making it personal ("you and others on here miss"), back that up with a factual and specific reference. I've a question for you.. In your opinion.. if a Jew stole something from an Arab, let's a bicycle.. has a crime been committed?" Most probably, yes. | |||
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"I've a question for you.. In your opinion.. if a Jew stole something from an Arab, let's a bicycle.. has a crime been committed?" Well, if you are trying to create an analogy, then prior to the 1947 civil war, all the Jewish land in Israel had been bought and paid for. The rest of the land-gains were made as a pushback against a war started by Arabs. Or, do you mean that time when Arab invaders invaded, colonised and forced Islam upon Eretz Israel in the 7th century? Or, do you mean how the Middle Eastern countries drove out all the Jews, but failed to compensate them for loss of land, 4 times the size of Israel? | |||
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"I've a question for you.. In your opinion.. if a Jew stole something from an Arab, let's a bicycle.. has a crime been committed? Well, if you are trying to create an analogy, then prior to the 1947 civil war, all the Jewish land in Israel had been bought and paid for. The rest of the land-gains were made as a pushback against a war started by Arabs. Or, do you mean that time when Arab invaders invaded, colonised and forced Islam upon Eretz Israel in the 7th century? Or, do you mean how the Middle Eastern countries drove out all the Jews, but failed to compensate them for loss of land, 4 times the size of Israel?" Of course he doesn't mean any of that. None of that suits his narrative. Mrs x | |||
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" Well, if you are trying to create an analogy, then prior to the 1947 civil war, all the Jewish land in Israel had been bought and paid for." Oh they paid for it? That's fine then, I'm sure the people evicted from their homes found consolation in that. What an absolutely ridiculous attempt to legitimise it. "it's fine, money was involved". | |||
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"I've always wondered why the term antisemitic is used solely to denote prejudice against Jewish people, when Semites was the term used for people from that region of the middle-east that included Jews and Arabs." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism Good section on the origin of the term. | |||
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" Well, if you are trying to create an analogy, then prior to the 1947 civil war, all the Jewish land in Israel had been bought and paid for. Oh they paid for it? That's fine then, I'm sure the people evicted from their homes found consolation in that. What an absolutely ridiculous attempt to legitimise it. "it's fine, money was involved"." That's about as stupid as saying "what are all these foreigners doing in Britain? I don't care if they bought their houses here, they simply don't belong". Think about it. Prior to the 1947 war (which is what your responded to), there were no evictions. | |||
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"I've always wondered why the term antisemitic is used solely to denote prejudice against Jewish people, when Semites was the term used for people from that region of the middle-east that included Jews and Arabs." Did you see that I posted the reason for this above? | |||
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" Well, if you are trying to create an analogy, then prior to the 1947 civil war, all the Jewish land in Israel had been bought and paid for. Oh they paid for it? That's fine then, I'm sure the people evicted from their homes found consolation in that. What an absolutely ridiculous attempt to legitimise it. "it's fine, money was involved"." Arable farm land and swamps mostly. Tell me, if you buy a house, will you continue to allow the previous owner to share it with you? In total, 5000 tenant farmers were displaced legally, but many more were employed and enjoyed the produce and the fact that the Zionist farmers eliminated the malaria problem. So much was improved, in fact, that it even encouraged more Arab immigration. | |||
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"I've always wondered why the term antisemitic is used solely to denote prejudice against Jewish people, when Semites was the term used for people from that region of the middle-east that included Jews and Arabs.Did you see that I posted the reason for this above?" No, I hadn't seen it, so thanks for pointing that out. | |||
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"In addition to my previous post - when large numbers of Jewish refugees arrived during the rise of Nazism, they lived with the boundaries of Jewish owned land. They didn't encroach on any territory owned by anyone else. " How do you explain the absolute horror show over there now? | |||
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" How do you explain the absolute horror show over there now?" Palestinian Arabs attacked Jews (again) and then cried victim (again) when they were given a hammering (again). Wash, rinse, repeat. | |||
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" How do you explain the absolute horror show over there now? Palestinian Arabs attacked Jews (again) and then cried victim (again) when they were given a hammering (again). Wash, rinse, repeat." So the whole "subtle" reason for this post is to support the white Jewish colony racist apartheid regime of isreal ?. QED.. Do tell me. . do the palisitinians not have the right to defend their land from illegally occupied territory? Acknowledged by the UN on countless occasions? Only the IDF being legitimate targets that is | |||
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" How do you explain the absolute horror show over there now? Palestinian Arabs attacked Jews (again) and then cried victim (again) when they were given a hammering (again). Wash, rinse, repeat." Btw.. your dismissive of the rights of others on your rhetoric of how using force legitimatisis conquest though force. Isreal would be nothing without the constant handouts by the USA . Is your above post not racist then? | |||
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"Your missing the point.. Bad people use Judaism whether Jews or otherwise to condone the actions of a racist corrupt regime (as displayed here) Good people (Jews or otherwise) need to call it out for what it is.. a good example being Jews with "not in my name" t shirts not because of their faith but because they know th difference between right and wrong! Just like any other well balanced moral human being seeing injustice being metered to to other human beings. Something you and others on here miss. You mean, a bit like all the Muslims who marched for peace after 9/11 and 5/7? (hint: they didn't because it wasn't their issue). " "Muslims across the United States responded immediately to the 9/11 with charitable donations and sponsored blood drives. Muslim families and businesses bought and displayed thousands of US flags. Hundreds of Muslim children joined the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, a quintessentially American movement. In a public interview, a Texan Muslim Boy Scout emphasised that 'the values of Scouting are so similar to what we learn in Islam'. "Muslim organisations repeatedly professed their loyalty to the United States and its values, with surveys of American Muslims never showing any significant support for extremism. In the 2011 Pew Research Center survey, 60 per cent of Muslim respondents expressed concern about the rise in Islamic extremism and 48 per cent thought that Muslim leaders should do more to attack it." Peter Oborne - The Fate of Abraham | |||
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"To the OP: I assume you know that that definition is controversial and not universally accepted? But it’s the way it’s used which is controversial. Those examples are stated as examples. They don’t sound like a definition. There are many arguments against the the idea that Jews should have the right to a “Jewish state”, which intrinsically gives Jews greater rights in that region than others. In Britain, do we claim that Britons have a greater rights than others? I think here, liberals are beyond such nationalism. So brandishing that definition around to silence debate is ridiculous. I’m Jewish, by the way. And definitely not antisemitic. "  | |||
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" How do you explain the absolute horror show over there now? Palestinian Arabs attacked Jews (again) and then cried victim (again) when they were given a hammering (again). Wash, rinse, repeat. So the whole "subtle" reason for this post is to support the white Jewish colony racist apartheid regime of isreal ?. QED.. Do tell me. . do the palisitinians not have the right to defend their land from illegally occupied territory? Acknowledged by the UN on countless occasions? Only the IDF being legitimate targets that is" No, to all the above. Oh, and why can't you learn to spell Palestine or Palestinian properly? | |||
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"To the OP: I assume you know that that definition is controversial and not universally accepted?" It's widely accepted by many countries and organisations, including the UK government and opposition. "I’m Jewish, by the way. And definitely not antisemitic. " Karl Marx was also Jewish; there are plenty of antisemitic Jews. A bit like the self-hating white people who blame themselves for all the world's ills. One of the largest objections to Zionism came in the form of Bundism, and that didn't work out too well in pre-Nazi Europe, did it?  | |||
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"To the OP: I assume you know that that definition is controversial and not universally accepted? It's widely accepted by many countries and organisations, including the UK government and opposition. I’m Jewish, by the way. And definitely not antisemitic. Karl Marx was also Jewish; there are plenty of antisemitic Jews. A bit like the self-hating white people who blame themselves for all the world's ills. One of the largest objections to Zionism came in the form of Bundism, and that didn't work out too well in pre-Nazi Europe, did it? "Your posts say quite a lot OP and a reminder of how history can repeat itself. And selective on which posts you answer. | |||
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"To the OP: I assume you know that that definition is controversial and not universally accepted? It's widely accepted by many countries and organisations, including the UK government and opposition. I’m Jewish, by the way. And definitely not antisemitic. Karl Marx was also Jewish; there are plenty of antisemitic Jews. A bit like the self-hating white people who blame themselves for all the world's ills. One of the largest objections to Zionism came in the form of Bundism, and that didn't work out too well in pre-Nazi Europe, did it? "There are arguments for and against zionism. And there is more than one form of Zionism, some of which may be considered anti-Zionist to some - it’s not always clear what criticisms of Israel are anti-Zionist. But by criticising Zionism you’re suggest I’m a self-hating antisemite? It doesn’t make any sense. | |||
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"To the OP: I assume you know that that definition is controversial and not universally accepted? It's widely accepted by many countries and organisations, including the UK government and opposition. I’m Jewish, by the way. And definitely not antisemitic. Karl Marx was also Jewish; there are plenty of antisemitic Jews. A bit like the self-hating white people who blame themselves for all the world's ills. One of the largest objections to Zionism came in the form of Bundism, and that didn't work out too well in pre-Nazi Europe, did it?
There are arguments for and against zionism. And there is more than one form of Zionism, some of which may be considered anti-Zionist to some - it’s not always clear what criticisms of Israel are anti-Zionist. But by criticising Zionism you’re suggest I’m a self-hating antisemite? It doesn’t make any sense. "I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense  | |||
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" I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense "From the man who is so passionate about Palestine, while also being unable to spell Palestine. | |||
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" There are arguments for and against zionism. And there is more than one form of Zionism, some of which may be considered anti-Zionist to some - it’s not always clear what criticisms of Israel are anti-Zionist. But by criticising Zionism you’re suggest I’m a self-hating antisemite? It doesn’t make any sense. " Criticism of Israeli policy is not the same as Denying the right to Jewish self-determination. However, I rarely meet anyone in the anti-Israel camp who isn't hideously misinformed about the situation. | |||
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" I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense
From the man who is so passionate about Palestine, while also being unable to spell Palestine. "Oh dear .. resorting to that now eh is that the best you've got? Btw you STILL haven't answered my question above.
You appear to be in full support of violence for the Israeli regime of Netenyahu government
The right by conquest that your supporting belongs in the history books along with racist apartheid which says a lot about you.
Your way has brought death differing fear to palisitinians and Israelis alike since 1948.
It's about time the likes of your thinking is abandoned and genuine progress made, not your perpetual warfare.
I doubt you'd support your ideology if you were in the firing line
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"To the OP: I assume you know that that definition is controversial and not universally accepted? It's widely accepted by many countries and organisations, including the UK government and opposition. I’m Jewish, by the way. And definitely not antisemitic. Karl Marx was also Jewish; there are plenty of antisemitic Jews. A bit like the self-hating white people who blame themselves for all the world's ills. One of the largest objections to Zionism came in the form of Bundism, and that didn't work out too well in pre-Nazi Europe, did it?
There are arguments for and against zionism. And there is more than one form of Zionism, some of which may be considered anti-Zionist to some - it’s not always clear what criticisms of Israel are anti-Zionist. But by criticising Zionism you’re suggest I’m a self-hating antisemite? It doesn’t make any sense.
I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense "I worry because, whilst the position is a bit crazy, it’s common and influential. That definition is accepted by mainstream institutions and I often here in Jewish circles that criticising zionism/Israel’s “right” to exist, is antisemitic. These people will also say that criticising Israeli leaders/policies is ok, in theory. But one doesn’t hear much such criticism - they’ll say, at this time, we need unity! And when you call Israeli leaders war criminals, you get called antisemitic. | |||
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"To the OP: I assume you know that that definition is controversial and not universally accepted? It's widely accepted by many countries and organisations, including the UK government and opposition. I’m Jewish, by the way. And definitely not antisemitic. Karl Marx was also Jewish; there are plenty of antisemitic Jews. A bit like the self-hating white people who blame themselves for all the world's ills. One of the largest objections to Zionism came in the form of Bundism, and that didn't work out too well in pre-Nazi Europe, did it?
There are arguments for and against zionism. And there is more than one form of Zionism, some of which may be considered anti-Zionist to some - it’s not always clear what criticisms of Israel are anti-Zionist. But by criticising Zionism you’re suggest I’m a self-hating antisemite? It doesn’t make any sense.
I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense
I worry because, whilst the position is a bit crazy, it’s common and influential. That definition is accepted by mainstream institutions and I often here in Jewish circles that criticising zionism/Israel’s “right” to exist, is antisemitic.
These people will also say that criticising Israeli leaders/policies is ok, in theory. But one doesn’t hear much such criticism - they’ll say, at this time, we need unity! And when you call Israeli leaders war criminals, you get called antisemitic. "I get your point, and I reckon the orthodox Jews get the brunt of the criticism too. I'd like to know who drew up the list and the political influence of those that had a hand in it. I'm certainly critical of the government's policies in Netenyahu and others in his government which as far as I know isn't anti semetic. Little comfort I know and understand your dilemma and you won't be alone. I've a work colleague who is Jewish and feels the same way. | |||
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"To the OP: I assume you know that that definition is controversial and not universally accepted? It's widely accepted by many countries and organisations, including the UK government and opposition. I’m Jewish, by the way. And definitely not antisemitic. Karl Marx was also Jewish; there are plenty of antisemitic Jews. A bit like the self-hating white people who blame themselves for all the world's ills. One of the largest objections to Zionism came in the form of Bundism, and that didn't work out too well in pre-Nazi Europe, did it?
There are arguments for and against zionism. And there is more than one form of Zionism, some of which may be considered anti-Zionist to some - it’s not always clear what criticisms of Israel are anti-Zionist. But by criticising Zionism you’re suggest I’m a self-hating antisemite? It doesn’t make any sense.
I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense
I worry because, whilst the position is a bit crazy, it’s common and influential. That definition is accepted by mainstream institutions and I often here in Jewish circles that criticising zionism/Israel’s “right” to exist, is antisemitic.
These people will also say that criticising Israeli leaders/policies is ok, in theory. But one doesn’t hear much such criticism - they’ll say, at this time, we need unity! And when you call Israeli leaders war criminals, you get called antisemitic. "Personally, I can't see how a Jew can be antisemic! I think that's absolutely freakin ludicrous | |||
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" Well, if you are trying to create an analogy, then prior to the 1947 civil war, all the Jewish land in Israel had been bought and paid for. Oh they paid for it? That's fine then, I'm sure the people evicted from their homes found consolation in that. What an absolutely ridiculous attempt to legitimise it. "it's fine, money was involved". Arable farm land and swamps mostly. Tell me, if you buy a house, will you continue to allow the previous owner to share it with you? In total, 5000 tenant farmers were displaced legally, but many more were employed and enjoyed the produce and the fact that the Zionist farmers eliminated the malaria problem. So much was improved, in fact, that it even encouraged more Arab immigration." Yes and we gave India democratic institutions and railways. That didn’t give us the right to rule over India. Your rose coloured view in this instance is political washing. Israel needs to remove itself from the West Bank and Gaza. It’s that simple. Perhaps hopefully then the violence will relent. People are tired on both sides I’m sure of that but the constant oppression and land grabs only strengthen the feelings against Israel. Just as we found in Northern Ireland being stubborn and unable to compromise got precisely nowhere. Religion clouded the whole picture even more. Ultimately the U.K has to take a huge amount of blame for the mess of Israel. You only have to look at all the straight line borders in Africa to see how much we cared about the local indigenous people. | |||
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" Yes and we gave India democratic institutions and railways. That didn’t give us the right to rule over India. Your rose coloured view in this instance is political washing." False equivalence. The Zionists created their own nation in their own homeland. " Israel needs to remove itself from the West Bank and Gaza. It’s that simple. " They removed themselves from Gaza twenty years ago. As for The West Bank, that region is correctly called Judea and Samaria. Judea being the origin of the word Jew. | |||
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"palisitinians" It's spelt 'Palestinians' and has a capital P. I'm not sure if you're doing it deliberately or you don't know how to use a spellchecker, but I would have thought anyone with your passion would at least know the basics. | |||
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" Personally, I can't see how a Jew can be antisemic! I think that's absolutely freakin ludicrous " There are plenty of them, such as Neturei Karta and the JVP. Some people call them 'self hating Jews' but I just think there's a lot of naive idealism. A bit like Queers for Palestine I suppose. In a recent survey, only 6% of British Jews did not consider themselves Zionist, whereas 80% did, with the rest ambivalent or unsure. | |||
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" Well, if you are trying to create an analogy, then prior to the 1947 civil war, all the Jewish land in Israel had been bought and paid for. Oh they paid for it? That's fine then, I'm sure the people evicted from their homes found consolation in that. What an absolutely ridiculous attempt to legitimise it. "it's fine, money was involved". Arable farm land and swamps mostly. Tell me, if you buy a house, will you continue to allow the previous owner to share it with you? In total, 5000 tenant farmers were displaced legally, but many more were employed and enjoyed the produce and the fact that the Zionist farmers eliminated the malaria problem. So much was improved, in fact, that it even encouraged more Arab immigration. Yes and we gave India democratic institutions and railways. That didn’t give us the right to rule over India. Your rose coloured view in this instance is political washing. Israel needs to remove itself from the West Bank and Gaza. It’s that simple. Perhaps hopefully then the violence will relent. People are tired on both sides I’m sure of that but the constant oppression and land grabs only strengthen the feelings against Israel. Just as we found in Northern Ireland being stubborn and unable to compromise got precisely nowhere. Religion clouded the whole picture even more. Ultimately the U.K has to take a huge amount of blame for the mess of Israel. You only have to look at all the straight line borders in Africa to see how much we cared about the local indigenous people. " Well said!!! | |||
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" I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense
From the man who is so passionate about Palestine, while also being unable to spell Palestine.
Oh dear .. resorting to that now eh is that the best you've got? Btw you STILL haven't answered my question above.
You appear to be in full support of violence for the Israeli regime of Netenyahu government
The right by conquest that your supporting belongs in the history books along with racist apartheid which says a lot about you.
Your way has brought death differing fear to palisitinians and Israelis alike since 1948.
It's about time the likes of your thinking is abandoned and genuine progress made, not your perpetual warfare.
I doubt you'd support your ideology if you were in the firing line
"He's picking on your misspell, so that he can feel superior. I wouldn't bother with this person. At the end of the day any one with a heart and anyone who has access to books ect, knows that what is happening to the Palestinians is wrong. I wouldn't engage with anyone who tries to justify that horrific behaviour. | |||
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" Possibly the fact that a country that accounts for 0.004% of the world's land area, associated with a religion that accounts for 0.2% of the world's population, seems to occupy a disproportionate amount of hatred given all the other atrocities and wrongdoing in the world, which dwarf the events in Israel in terms of both absolute numbers and brutality. The conclusion of many is that the intense hatred and vitriol for Israel (and often Jews) is disproportionate. The defence is a response to those who flock to attack. In droves. Disproportionately." Disproportionate, really? Wake up to read another school has been bombed in the largest concentration camp on the globe. | |||
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" Possibly the fact that a country that accounts for 0.004% of the world's land area, associated with a religion that accounts for 0.2% of the world's population, seems to occupy a disproportionate amount of hatred given all the other atrocities and wrongdoing in the world, which dwarf the events in Israel in terms of both absolute numbers and brutality. The conclusion of many is that the intense hatred and vitriol for Israel (and often Jews) is disproportionate. The defence is a response to those who flock to attack. In droves. Disproportionately. Disproportionate, really? Wake up to read another school has been bombed in the largest concentration camp on the globe. " https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/6/30/pakistan-to-start-second-phase-of-afghan-deportations https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/22/whats-wrong-the-silence-of-pakistanis-on-expulsion-of-afghan-refugees "‘What’s wrong?’: The silence of Pakistanis on expulsion of Afghan refugees... As nearly 1.7 million Afghans are ordered to leave, there is palpable silence on the streets of Pakistan over the government’s move." Not a whisper on this forum. If Israel did the same thing, there would be uproar. Why? https://www.bigissue.com/culture/books/yemen-civil-war-forgotten-invisible-photographer-asmaa-waguih/#newmode-embed-50964-65957 How about the millions of starving children in Yemen, due to the war over there? Nope! Why? To be clear, this is not whataboutism. It is not justifying any genuine crimes committed by Israel by pointing at worse regimes. It is asking the question: why the persistent fixation on Israel? You ask: Disproportionate, really? Wake up to read another school has been bombed in the largest concentration camp on the globe. Firstly, China operates what is probably the largest concentration camp (network) in the world. 1-3 million adults in internment camps plus ~500k children in "special boarding schools". These are actual, dictionary-definition (rather than a rhetorical turn off phrase) concentration camps, replete with murder, r@pe, reeducation, etc. Hardly a peep from here after an initial news cycle completes. Let's look at it a different way: When the US police or the Met Police pull over and arrest more black drivers, that's not to say that the black drivers that they arrest aren't doing something illegal. But it does demonstrate racism. That's a disproportionate focus upon blacks. If you stop and search more blacks, you will find more contraband - this is a well understood and well documented phenomenon. Meanwhile, middle class white mums are quite free to smoke on the weekend, with no fear of being arrested. And if they are caught with drugs, they may well get a wink and a smile and be told to be more careful in the future. This is what's happening with Israel. It may well be that Israel is making inadvertent and deliberate decisions that cross the line to criminal and immoral. That's not the point of the above post. It's that there is a lynch mob waiting for the first sign of wrongdoing (and it may indeed be genuine wrongdoing), to bring out the tropes: Jew money, controlling the world, not real Jews anyway, global conspiracy, etc. In fact, if memory serves, you (might have been another poster) even quoted a passage from the Bible a little while ago about Jews being the children of the devil, saying now you understand it. Disproportionate doesn't mean wrong. But it does beg "why"? | |||
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" Possibly the fact that a country that accounts for 0.004% of the world's land area, associated with a religion that accounts for 0.2% of the world's population, seems to occupy a disproportionate amount of hatred given all the other atrocities and wrongdoing in the world, which dwarf the events in Israel in terms of both absolute numbers and brutality. The conclusion of many is that the intense hatred and vitriol for Israel (and often Jews) is disproportionate. The defence is a response to those who flock to attack. In droves. Disproportionately. Disproportionate, really? Wake up to read another school has been bombed in the largest concentration camp on the globe. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/6/30/pakistan-to-start-second-phase-of-afghan-deportations https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/22/whats-wrong-the-silence-of-pakistanis-on-expulsion-of-afghan-refugees "‘What’s wrong?’: The silence of Pakistanis on expulsion of Afghan refugees... As nearly 1.7 million Afghans are ordered to leave, there is palpable silence on the streets of Pakistan over the government’s move." Not a whisper on this forum. If Israel did the same thing, there would be uproar. Why? https://www.bigissue.com/culture/books/yemen-civil-war-forgotten-invisible-photographer-asmaa-waguih/#newmode-embed-50964-65957 How about the millions of starving children in Yemen, due to the war over there? Nope! Why? To be clear, this is not whataboutism. It is not justifying any genuine crimes committed by Israel by pointing at worse regimes. It is asking the question: why the persistent fixation on Israel? You ask: Disproportionate, really? Wake up to read another school has been bombed in the largest concentration camp on the globe. Firstly, China operates what is probably the largest concentration camp (network) in the world. 1-3 million adults in internment camps plus ~500k children in "special boarding schools". These are actual, dictionary-definition (rather than a rhetorical turn off phrase) concentration camps, replete with murder, r@pe, reeducation, etc. Hardly a peep from here after an initial news cycle completes. Let's look at it a different way: When the US police or the Met Police pull over and arrest more black drivers, that's not to say that the black drivers that they arrest aren't doing something illegal. But it does demonstrate racism. That's a disproportionate focus upon blacks. If you stop and search more blacks, you will find more contraband - this is a well understood and well documented phenomenon. Meanwhile, middle class white mums are quite free to smoke on the weekend, with no fear of being arrested. And if they are caught with drugs, they may well get a wink and a smile and be told to be more careful in the future. This is what's happening with Israel. It may well be that Israel is making inadvertent and deliberate decisions that cross the line to criminal and immoral. That's not the point of the above post. It's that there is a lynch mob waiting for the first sign of wrongdoing (and it may indeed be genuine wrongdoing), to bring out the tropes: Jew money, controlling the world, not real Jews anyway, global conspiracy, etc. In fact, if memory serves, you (might have been another poster) even quoted a passage from the Bible a little while ago about Jews being the children of the devil, saying now you understand it. Disproportionate doesn't mean wrong. But it does beg "why"?" It does beg that question. Criticism of Israel, relative to criticism of other atrocious regimes, may be evidence of antisemitism - depending on the tropes used, it often is antisemitic. But there are other explanations. It feels so much closer to home. It’s a country supported by UK and US bombs, and the imperial power of the day helped to create it. It’s int he Eurovision; presents itself as a modem, democratic nation. So we think we can affect things. And when Israel-critical Jews are more concerned with Israel than with Pakistan or China - well obviously they will be. | |||
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" Possibly the fact that a country that accounts for 0.004% of the world's land area, associated with a religion that accounts for 0.2% of the world's population, seems to occupy a disproportionate amount of hatred given all the other atrocities and wrongdoing in the world, which dwarf the events in Israel in terms of both absolute numbers and brutality. The conclusion of many is that the intense hatred and vitriol for Israel (and often Jews) is disproportionate. The defence is a response to those who flock to attack. In droves. Disproportionately. Disproportionate, really? Wake up to read another school has been bombed in the largest concentration camp on the globe. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/6/30/pakistan-to-start-second-phase-of-afghan-deportations https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/22/whats-wrong-the-silence-of-pakistanis-on-expulsion-of-afghan-refugees "‘What’s wrong?’: The silence of Pakistanis on expulsion of Afghan refugees... As nearly 1.7 million Afghans are ordered to leave, there is palpable silence on the streets of Pakistan over the government’s move." Not a whisper on this forum. If Israel did the same thing, there would be uproar. Why? https://www.bigissue.com/culture/books/yemen-civil-war-forgotten-invisible-photographer-asmaa-waguih/#newmode-embed-50964-65957 How about the millions of starving children in Yemen, due to the war over there? Nope! Why? To be clear, this is not whataboutism. It is not justifying any genuine crimes committed by Israel by pointing at worse regimes. It is asking the question: why the persistent fixation on Israel? You ask: Disproportionate, really? Wake up to read another school has been bombed in the largest concentration camp on the globe. Firstly, China operates what is probably the largest concentration camp (network) in the world. 1-3 million adults in internment camps plus ~500k children in "special boarding schools". These are actual, dictionary-definition (rather than a rhetorical turn off phrase) concentration camps, replete with murder, r@pe, reeducation, etc. Hardly a peep from here after an initial news cycle completes. Let's look at it a different way: When the US police or the Met Police pull over and arrest more black drivers, that's not to say that the black drivers that they arrest aren't doing something illegal. But it does demonstrate racism. That's a disproportionate focus upon blacks. If you stop and search more blacks, you will find more contraband - this is a well understood and well documented phenomenon. Meanwhile, middle class white mums are quite free to smoke on the weekend, with no fear of being arrested. And if they are caught with drugs, they may well get a wink and a smile and be told to be more careful in the future. This is what's happening with Israel. It may well be that Israel is making inadvertent and deliberate decisions that cross the line to criminal and immoral. That's not the point of the above post. It's that there is a lynch mob waiting for the first sign of wrongdoing (and it may indeed be genuine wrongdoing), to bring out the tropes: Jew money, controlling the world, not real Jews anyway, global conspiracy, etc. In fact, if memory serves, you (might have been another poster) even quoted a passage from the Bible a little while ago about Jews being the children of the devil, saying now you understand it. Disproportionate doesn't mean wrong. But it does beg "why"? It does beg that question. Criticism of Israel, relative to criticism of other atrocious regimes, may be evidence of antisemitism - depending on the tropes used, it often is antisemitic. But there are other explanations. It feels so much closer to home. It’s a country supported by UK and US bombs, and the imperial power of the day helped to create it. It’s int he Eurovision; presents itself as a modem, democratic nation. So we think we can affect things. And when Israel-critical Jews are more concerned with Israel than with Pakistan or China - well obviously they will be. " So you agree that it might indeed be disproportionate, but propose there are additional explanations to antisemitism? Fair enough. Do you ever suffer from anti-Semitism? | |||
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" I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense
From the man who is so passionate about Palestine, while also being unable to spell Palestine.
Oh dear .. resorting to that now eh is that the best you've got? Btw you STILL haven't answered my question above.
You appear to be in full support of violence for the Israeli regime of Netenyahu government
The right by conquest that your supporting belongs in the history books along with racist apartheid which says a lot about you.
Your way has brought death differing fear to palisitinians and Israelis alike since 1948.
It's about time the likes of your thinking is abandoned and genuine progress made, not your perpetual warfare.
I doubt you'd support your ideology if you were in the firing line
He's picking on your misspell, so that he can feel superior. I wouldn't bother with this person. At the end of the day any one with a heart and anyone who has access to books ect, knows that what is happening to the Palestinians is wrong. I wouldn't engage with anyone who tries to justify that horrific behaviour. "Yeah I fully agree.. I like to call them out for what they are and there's a few on here who miss/ignore the fundamental principles to support the horrific behaviour
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" Possibly the fact that a country that accounts for 0.004% of the world's land area, associated with a religion that accounts for 0.2% of the world's population, seems to occupy a disproportionate amount of hatred given all the other atrocities and wrongdoing in the world, which dwarf the events in Israel in terms of both absolute numbers and brutality. The conclusion of many is that the intense hatred and vitriol for Israel (and often Jews) is disproportionate. The defence is a response to those who flock to attack. In droves. Disproportionately. Disproportionate, really? Wake up to read another school has been bombed in the largest concentration camp on the globe. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/6/30/pakistan-to-start-second-phase-of-afghan-deportations https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/22/whats-wrong-the-silence-of-pakistanis-on-expulsion-of-afghan-refugees "‘What’s wrong?’: The silence of Pakistanis on expulsion of Afghan refugees... As nearly 1.7 million Afghans are ordered to leave, there is palpable silence on the streets of Pakistan over the government’s move." Not a whisper on this forum. If Israel did the same thing, there would be uproar. Why? https://www.bigissue.com/culture/books/yemen-civil-war-forgotten-invisible-photographer-asmaa-waguih/#newmode-embed-50964-65957 How about the millions of starving children in Yemen, due to the war over there? Nope! Why? To be clear, this is not whataboutism. It is not justifying any genuine crimes committed by Israel by pointing at worse regimes. It is asking the question: why the persistent fixation on Israel? You ask: Disproportionate, really? Wake up to read another school has been bombed in the largest concentration camp on the globe. Firstly, China operates what is probably the largest concentration camp (network) in the world. 1-3 million adults in internment camps plus ~500k children in "special boarding schools". These are actual, dictionary-definition (rather than a rhetorical turn off phrase) concentration camps, replete with murder, r@pe, reeducation, etc. Hardly a peep from here after an initial news cycle completes. Let's look at it a different way: When the US police or the Met Police pull over and arrest more black drivers, that's not to say that the black drivers that they arrest aren't doing something illegal. But it does demonstrate racism. That's a disproportionate focus upon blacks. If you stop and search more blacks, you will find more contraband - this is a well understood and well documented phenomenon. Meanwhile, middle class white mums are quite free to smoke on the weekend, with no fear of being arrested. And if they are caught with drugs, they may well get a wink and a smile and be told to be more careful in the future. This is what's happening with Israel. It may well be that Israel is making inadvertent and deliberate decisions that cross the line to criminal and immoral. That's not the point of the above post. It's that there is a lynch mob waiting for the first sign of wrongdoing (and it may indeed be genuine wrongdoing), to bring out the tropes: Jew money, controlling the world, not real Jews anyway, global conspiracy, etc. In fact, if memory serves, you (might have been another poster) even quoted a passage from the Bible a little while ago about Jews being the children of the devil, saying now you understand it. Disproportionate doesn't mean wrong. But it does beg "why"? It does beg that question. Criticism of Israel, relative to criticism of other atrocious regimes, may be evidence of antisemitism - depending on the tropes used, it often is antisemitic. But there are other explanations. It feels so much closer to home. It’s a country supported by UK and US bombs, and the imperial power of the day helped to create it. It’s int he Eurovision; presents itself as a modem, democratic nation. So we think we can affect things. And when Israel-critical Jews are more concerned with Israel than with Pakistan or China - well obviously they will be. So you agree that it might indeed be disproportionate, but propose there are additional explanations to antisemitism? Fair enough. Do you ever suffer from anti-Semitism?" I didn’t actually say it’s disproportionate (thought I see how not disputing your comment implies that). I think right now, it’s hard to be disproportionate in one’s condemnation of Israel. But the question remains, why is there less criticism of other abhorrent regimes? And on that, see what I see above. I have to say, I don’t think I have experienced any antisemitism since 7 October. Unless you could certain Jews hating me for being a Jew who criticises Israel. I also wore my kippah (head covering) at a pro-Palestine march, and again, the only only hate I saw was from the counterprotesters. But I have heard that some people have different experiences to me. | |||
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"He's picking on your misspell, so that he can feel superior. " No. I'm picking on the poor spelling because he claims to he an expert on the situation and appears to be passionate about it - although really he doesn't know as much as he claims, and tends to use soundbites rather than arguments. You would think that someone making the claims he makes, would be well-read enough to know how to spell the word 'Palestine' - and to actually pick up on the numerous times he's been corrected (and not just by me). It's either defiance or stupidity. | |||
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" Yes and we gave India democratic institutions and railways. That didn’t give us the right to rule over India. Your rose coloured view in this instance is political washing. False equivalence. The Zionists created their own nation in their own homeland. Israel needs to remove itself from the West Bank and Gaza. It’s that simple. They removed themselves from Gaza twenty years ago. As for The West Bank, that region is correctly called Judea and Samaria. Judea being the origin of the word Jew. " The U.K. led the creation of the modern day Israel as you well know. It was a way of ensuring they had a safe haven after the trauma of the Second World War where Jew were horrifically treated. . Who controls Gaza ? In reality Israel controls the camp of Gaza . That’s their reality. We sent a ship there before all the latest trouble and it was Israel who controlled the arrival, With armed motor boats to ensure compliance. Who’s controlling the oils fields which by right are Gaza’s ? Yes you guessed Israel. Who wants an alternative Suez Canal and who’s taking land in Gaza if it happens? Yes Israel. Ridiculous claim that Gaza is independent. The ancient claim to the West Bank is utter bollocks in relation to the recent history, as that would mean Italy owns most of the UK. The battle of Jericho for example . Who was there already that they needed to conquer them to win the battle of Canaan? Go back further and you will find no trace of any Jewish history. Leapfrog victors history and you will find another incumbent with a totally different religion and name. Religion and selecting your favourite time period in history does not trump reality, The battle of Jericho according to Wiki. “Excavations at Tell es-Sultan, the biblical Jericho, have failed to find any traces of a city at the relevant time (end of the Bronze Age),[2] which has led to a consensus among scholars that the story has its origins in the nationalist propaganda of much later kings of Judah and their claims to the territory of the Kingdom of Israel.[3] The lack of archaeological evidence and the composition, history and theological purposes of the Book of Joshua have led archaeologists like William G. Dever to characterise the story of the fall of Jericho as "invented out of whole cloth".” Again it’s a victors history and in this case probably made up. I agree Israel right to exist as we had a hand in that. I totally disagree that they can forcibly take more land based on some spurious historic nonsense. | |||
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"the largest concentration camp on the globe. " Have you ever visited a concentration camp? I have, so I kind of doubt you know what you're talking about. When you get a chance, take a look at YouTube videos of pre-2023 Gaza and see the bustling markets, smiling people, shiny cars and normal-looking Middle Eastern streets, shops, schools etc. Describing Gaza as a concentration camp is a deliberate attempt to hurt Jewish sensitivities. | |||
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"Excuse all those typos - hope you can work out what it says. " Full respect to you for sharing that with us! | |||
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"He's picking on your misspell, so that he can feel superior. No. I'm picking on the poor spelling because he claims to he an expert on the situation and appears to be passionate about it - although really he doesn't know as much as he claims, and tends to use soundbites rather than arguments. You would think that someone making the claims he makes, would be well-read enough to know how to spell the word 'Palestine' - and to actually pick up on the numerous times he's been corrected (and not just by me). It's either defiance or stupidity." PALISTINE: is a concentration camp. It's been blockaded by land sea and air. Control of what and who leaves and enters .. including food, water medical supplies.. I'd rather have spelling issues and support the Palistine people than support and normalise the slow industrial death of a group of people by starvation any day! You've refused to answer fundamental reasonable questions I asked of you , while you support an evil regime and the ethnic cleansing of a people. I was fully against the apartheid of South Africa, so why the hell would I support this abomination and your abhorrent justification of that? Your only argument put forward is these accusations of spelling and sounbites..wow lol .. is that the best you've got? Seriously? Fucking HILARIOUS Hahahaha
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"the largest concentration camp on the globe. Have you ever visited a concentration camp? I have, so I kind of doubt you know what you're talking about. When you get a chance, take a look at YouTube videos of pre-2023 Gaza and see the bustling markets, smiling people, shiny cars and normal-looking Middle Eastern streets, shops, schools etc. Describing Gaza as a concentration camp is a deliberate attempt to hurt Jewish sensitivities." More untrue statements and you know it!. It's a concentration camp because it is! And you saying it's to hurt Jewish sensitivities is just deliberate defection and you know it. Israelis need rescuing from Netenyahu before that madman starts getting more palestinians, Israelis killed.. and more..! Iranians, American, British personnel sucked into a regional war . | |||
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"One thing that always stands out to us is how little coverage of Gaza our media actually shows. There's leaks for Ukraine all of the place, where you can see all the gory action. Yet for the Gaza conflict there is very little indeed, except from the arguably biased Palestinian side. It's not anti sematic to declare the state of Israel as awful when it comes to human rights. Its not anti sematic to declare that no religion deserves their own ethno-state. The holocaust does not grant a nation a free pass to commit war crimes and genocide on others. Zionism does not equate to Judaism. It is Zionists afterall that say its antiemetic to criticise Israel, and groups/institutions that Zionists lobby or hold influence over. The area should have had an international peacekeeping force sent in decades ago, similar to Kosovo." There's a few things on the list are controversial.. The UN proposed peace keeping in the past but Isreal blocked it if memory serves me right | |||
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"One thing that always stands out to us is how little coverage of Gaza our media actually shows. There's leaks for Ukraine all of the place, where you can see all the gory action. Yet for the Gaza conflict there is very little indeed, except from the arguably biased Palestinian side. It's not anti sematic to declare the state of Israel as awful when it comes to human rights. Its not anti sematic to declare that no religion deserves their own ethno-state. The holocaust does not grant a nation a free pass to commit war crimes and genocide on others. Zionism does not equate to Judaism. It is Zionists afterall that say its antiemetic to criticise Israel, and groups/institutions that Zionists lobby or hold influence over. The area should have had an international peacekeeping force sent in decades ago, similar to Kosovo." It took the UN three years to get peacekeepers to Bosnia after 100,000+ were killed. On Israel the world can see them for what they are. | |||
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"He's picking on your misspell, so that he can feel superior. No. I'm picking on the poor spelling because he claims to he an expert on the situation and appears to be passionate about it - although really he doesn't know as much as he claims, and tends to use soundbites rather than arguments. You would think that someone making the claims he makes, would be well-read enough to know how to spell the word 'Palestine' - and to actually pick up on the numerous times he's been corrected (and not just by me). It's either defiance or stupidity." I've just seen your deluded accusation that I claim to be an expert. Are you inventing what I claim to have said to score imaginary points? If so then it's rather a pathetic way to behave | |||
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" I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense
From the man who is so passionate about Palestine, while also being unable to spell Palestine.
Oh dear .. resorting to that now eh is that the best you've got? Btw you STILL haven't answered my question above.
You appear to be in full support of violence for the Israeli regime of Netenyahu government
The right by conquest that your supporting belongs in the history books along with racist apartheid which says a lot about you.
Your way has brought death differing fear to palisitinians and Israelis alike since 1948.
It's about time the likes of your thinking is abandoned and genuine progress made, not your perpetual warfare.
I doubt you'd support your ideology if you were in the firing line
He's picking on your misspell, so that he can feel superior. I wouldn't bother with this person. At the end of the day any one with a heart and anyone who has access to books ect, knows that what is happening to the Palestinians is wrong. I wouldn't engage with anyone who tries to justify that horrific behaviour.
Yeah I fully agree.. I like to call them out for what they are and there's a few on here who miss/ignore the fundamental principles to support the horrific behaviour
"Well said, again | |||
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" I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense
From the man who is so passionate about Palestine, while also being unable to spell Palestine.
Oh dear .. resorting to that now eh is that the best you've got? Btw you STILL haven't answered my question above.
You appear to be in full support of violence for the Israeli regime of Netenyahu government
The right by conquest that your supporting belongs in the history books along with racist apartheid which says a lot about you.
Your way has brought death differing fear to palisitinians and Israelis alike since 1948.
It's about time the likes of your thinking is abandoned and genuine progress made, not your perpetual warfare.
I doubt you'd support your ideology if you were in the firing line
He's picking on your misspell, so that he can feel superior. I wouldn't bother with this person. At the end of the day any one with a heart and anyone who has access to books ect, knows that what is happening to the Palestinians is wrong. I wouldn't engage with anyone who tries to justify that horrific behaviour.
Yeah I fully agree.. I like to call them out for what they are and there's a few on here who miss/ignore the fundamental principles to support the horrific behaviour
Well said, again "Thanks the OP's posts get weird.. he's having to invent things I supposedly said to win imaginary arguments lol.. bless him
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"And, in typical dandelion style, he starts to flood the thread with multiple posts, with the aim of getting the topic auto-closed. I see you. "More imaginary arguments.. If this post gets full then start " antisemitism 2" or "antisemitism continued" it's not rocket science lol
Don't worry OP , I'll look after your fragile ego | |||
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" I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense
From the man who is so passionate about Palestine, while also being unable to spell Palestine.
Oh dear .. resorting to that now eh is that the best you've got? Btw you STILL haven't answered my question above.
You appear to be in full support of violence for the Israeli regime of Netenyahu government
The right by conquest that your supporting belongs in the history books along with racist apartheid which says a lot about you.
Your way has brought death differing fear to palisitinians and Israelis alike since 1948.
It's about time the likes of your thinking is abandoned and genuine progress made, not your perpetual warfare.
I doubt you'd support your ideology if you were in the firing line
He's picking on your misspell, so that he can feel superior. I wouldn't bother with this person. At the end of the day any one with a heart and anyone who has access to books ect, knows that what is happening to the Palestinians is wrong. I wouldn't engage with anyone who tries to justify that horrific behaviour.
Yeah I fully agree.. I like to call them out for what they are and there's a few on here who miss/ignore the fundamental principles to support the horrific behaviour
Well said, again
Thanks the OP's posts get weird.. he's having to invent things I supposedly said to win imaginary arguments lol.. bless him
"
You definitely have more patience than me! However, it's good to reign in and call out delusional behaviour, especially on a public platform. Sometimes silence can be interpreted as confirming the other person's position as being correct. | |||
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" I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense
From the man who is so passionate about Palestine, while also being unable to spell Palestine.
Oh dear .. resorting to that now eh is that the best you've got? Btw you STILL haven't answered my question above.
You appear to be in full support of violence for the Israeli regime of Netenyahu government
The right by conquest that your supporting belongs in the history books along with racist apartheid which says a lot about you.
Your way has brought death differing fear to palisitinians and Israelis alike since 1948.
It's about time the likes of your thinking is abandoned and genuine progress made, not your perpetual warfare.
I doubt you'd support your ideology if you were in the firing line
He's picking on your misspell, so that he can feel superior. I wouldn't bother with this person. At the end of the day any one with a heart and anyone who has access to books ect, knows that what is happening to the Palestinians is wrong. I wouldn't engage with anyone who tries to justify that horrific behaviour.
Yeah I fully agree.. I like to call them out for what they are and there's a few on here who miss/ignore the fundamental principles to support the horrific behaviour
Well said, again
Thanks the OP's posts get weird.. he's having to invent things I supposedly said to win imaginary arguments lol.. bless him
You definitely have more patience than me! However, it's good to reign in and call out delusional behaviour, especially on a public platform. Sometimes silence can be interpreted as confirming the other person's position as being correct. "Hey thankyou spiritual.. Yes your so right about silence being interpreted that way | |||
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" If this post gets full then start " antisemitism 2" or "antisemitism continued")" Typically, the thread is no longer about anti-Semitism. It doesn't matter who, geopolitically, is right and who is wrong, to the Jewish boys being beaten on the Tube platform at Belsize Park and almost kicked onto the tracks. Or for the Jews going about their business who get screamed at as if they personally murdered Palestinian babies. Or to the young teenage Jewish girl in Paris who was r@ped brutally and told to swear to Allah that she would tell nobody. The situation in Gaza has patently opened the floodgates to anti-Semitism with a vengeance, providing moral cover for racists to declare open season on Jews worldwide (and here in the UK). There is nothing anti-Semitic about criticising a government, a regime, whatever. But that line clearly and often gets crossed. And then it descends into a debate about the rights and wrongs of Israel. | |||
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" I wouldn't worry.. not many of his posts do make sense
From the man who is so passionate about Palestine, while also being unable to spell Palestine.
Oh dear .. resorting to that now eh is that the best you've got? Btw you STILL haven't answered my question above.
You appear to be in full support of violence for the Israeli regime of Netenyahu government
The right by conquest that your supporting belongs in the history books along with racist apartheid which says a lot about you.
Your way has brought death differing fear to palisitinians and Israelis alike since 1948.
It's about time the likes of your thinking is abandoned and genuine progress made, not your perpetual warfare.
I doubt you'd support your ideology if you were in the firing line
He's picking on your misspell, so that he can feel superior. I wouldn't bother with this person. At the end of the day any one with a heart and anyone who has access to books ect, knows that what is happening to the Palestinians is wrong. I wouldn't engage with anyone who tries to justify that horrific behaviour.
Yeah I fully agree.. I like to call them out for what they are and there's a few on here who miss/ignore the fundamental principles to support the horrific behaviour
Well said, again
Thanks the OP's posts get weird.. he's having to invent things I supposedly said to win imaginary arguments lol.. bless him
You definitely have more patience than me! However, it's good to reign in and call out delusional behaviour, especially on a public platform. Sometimes silence can be interpreted as confirming the other person's position as being correct.
Hey thankyou spiritual..
Yes your so right about silence being interpreted that way "You're very welcome | |||
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" If this post gets full then start " antisemitism 2" or "antisemitism continued") Typically, the thread is no longer about anti-Semitism. It doesn't matter who, geopolitically, is right and who is wrong, to the Jewish boys being beaten on the Tube platform at Belsize Park and almost kicked onto the tracks. Or for the Jews going about their business who get screamed at as if they personally murdered Palestinian babies. Or to the young teenage Jewish girl in Paris who was r@ped brutally and told to swear to Allah that she would tell nobody. The situation in Gaza has patently opened the floodgates to anti-Semitism with a vengeance, providing moral cover for racists to declare open season on Jews worldwide (and here in the UK). There is nothing anti-Semitic about criticising a government, a regime, whatever. But that line clearly and often gets crossed. And then it descends into a debate about the rights and wrongs of Israel." It's terrible when people's views about a certain religion just rely on the mantra 'Israel bad, Israel evil'. What about the Jews that don't live in Israel, never been to Israel but suffer from antisemitism? Doesn't want to discuss that, just wants to talk about Israel even though this thread is not about that. Mrs x | |||
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"It's very difficult to not get drawn into the geopolitical debates about Israel, when the antisemitic language is so obviously being used to bait people. If only people would really consider why terms like 'genocide' and 'concentration camp' are thrown around so liberally, and so much focus is given to this, in spite of the obvious mismatch. It's the oldest prejudice and very much ingrained into people, so much so that they are virtually oblivious." Erm.. but you've attacked a Jew and so have others from here. Are you also attempting to get that list you posted enforced? Because that list has some very controversial and possibly dangerous points I don't know who had a hand in draughting it or the internationally recognised countries. | |||
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" If this post gets full then start " antisemitism 2" or "antisemitism continued") Typically, the thread is no longer about anti-Semitism. It doesn't matter who, geopolitically, is right and who is wrong, to the Jewish boys being beaten on the Tube platform at Belsize Park and almost kicked onto the tracks. Or for the Jews going about their business who get screamed at as if they personally murdered Palestinian babies. Or to the young teenage Jewish girl in Paris who was r@ped brutally and told to swear to Allah that she would tell nobody. The situation in Gaza has patently opened the floodgates to anti-Semitism with a vengeance, providing moral cover for racists to declare open season on Jews worldwide (and here in the UK). There is nothing anti-Semitic about criticising a government, a regime, whatever. But that line clearly and often gets crossed. And then it descends into a debate about the rights and wrongs of Israel." I don’t know those news stories, but clearly such antisemitism is awful. And it does seem to be on the rise. There’s nothing to gain from ignoring that. I’m not sure it’s as high as some claim, as there still seems to be confusion as to what is antisemitism - these examples are arbitrary targeting of individuals. But like the IHRA’s examples, you end by suggesting that debating the rights and wrongs of Israel as a concept is antisemitic. And there I think you’re wrong - one can be very against the idea of a Jewish state and not be antisemitic. If you’re Jewish too, have you experienced antisemitism since 7 October? (As you asked me.) Finally, though antisemitism is wrong, I’m pretty certain that Israel’s actions and mainstream Anglo Jewry’s reluctance to criticise it, increases antisemitism. | |||
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" But like the IHRA’s examples, you end by suggesting that debating the rights and wrongs of Israel as a concept is antisemitic. " This is not true. Debating the rights and wrongs of Israel as a concept is not, in and of itself, anti-Semitic. " And there I think you’re wrong - one can be very against the idea of a Jewish state and not be antisemitic. " Probably true. | |||
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" But like the IHRA’s examples, you end by suggesting that debating the rights and wrongs of Israel as a concept is antisemitic. This is not true. Debating the rights and wrongs of Israel as a concept is not, in and of itself, anti-Semitic. And there I think you’re wrong - one can be very against the idea of a Jewish state and not be antisemitic. Probably true." Ok - maybe I misread, and you didn’t imply that. Sorry. | |||
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"If I didn't know better. I'd say the op is lobbying to get that list enforced on here. Even though it's flawed and fundamentally wrong on some points" Generally speaking, the admin of this website rarely make any changes to anything. Personally speaking, I've got bigger things to worry about than some two-bob racists in denial of their prejudice. I just call it when I see it, and yes I am including you. | |||
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" And there I think you’re wrong - one can be very against the idea of a Jewish state and not be antisemitic. Probably true." Maybe 100 years ago, but not now, not after everything that went before. The destruction or dismantling of the world's only Jewish state would mean horrific consequences for 7 million of the world's Jews (just under half of them). The region is a tiny sliver of land compared with the rest of the world - it should be able to exist peacefully, and yet it comes under more scrutiny than any other country and lives with an existential threat from all sides. Every war Israel has been involved with was started by hostile states - and hatred or distrust of Jews is at the core of it all. | |||
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" And there I think you’re wrong - one can be very against the idea of a Jewish state and not be antisemitic. Probably true. Maybe 100 years ago, but not now, not after everything that went before. The destruction or dismantling of the world's only Jewish state would mean horrific consequences for 7 million of the world's Jews (just under half of them). The region is a tiny sliver of land compared with the rest of the world - it should be able to exist peacefully, and yet it comes under more scrutiny than any other country and lives with an existential threat from all sides. Every war Israel has been involved with was started by hostile states - and hatred or distrust of Jews is at the core of it all." Your point, in a practical sense, is correct. But to be against the "idea" of a Jewish state is not necessarily antisemitic. There are many reasons for someone to be against the idea of any religious state. There are reasons to express concern and doubt about some of the actions in the forming of Israel itself. We cannot rule out such subjects as taboo, or antisemitic, otherwise we move into the territory of untouchable dogma, and abandon reason. Merely holding these thoughts cannot be written off as evil. That's how otherwise reasonable people become alienated. Take a humanist who objects to any religious or ethno-religious state on principle. People who are consistent in their position should be allowed to hold their views, and we can agree or disagree. Now, someone who is okay with one type of religious state but denies another? That's flirting with antisemitism. Now, someone who calls for the destruction or dismantling of the Jewish state is an entirely different beast. That is a practical call for action that would result in horrific consequences for a large proportion of Jews. That would generally fall squarely into the camp of antisemitic. The fact that it is disproportionately singled out for scrutiny is almost certainly an indicator of antisemitism, as pointed out above. It's a fine distinction, but an important one. | |||
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