FabSwingers.com forum: Can Labour Do worse than..

By (user no longer on site) OP
40 weeks ago

The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

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By *bsolutely nutsMan
40 weeks ago

Dover

Regardless of what happens in the next year, I believe Labour will win because

1. Any party in power runs the course and people want a change.

2. We have suffered as a nation as a result of several factors such as Covid, realignment post Brexit, occasional perceived corrupt political decisions etc (whether these would have been any different under Labour is to a large extent, immaterial)

3. Labour will retain their core support. The Tories, as the Government, may find that some of their support sit on their hands or veer right towards Reform....not many but enough to derail the Tories in some seats.

4. While the SNP will retain many seats, Labour will pick up a few seats in Scotland, which would be necessary to gain power.

So, as the subject states, it comes down to how bad or competent will the next government be, when the Exchequer isn't exactly full?

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By *uddy laneMan
40 weeks ago

dudley

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country "

With every consecutive term of government it is getting worse, from the conservatives to Labour I have not seen any real benefit or prosperity this group of just over 600 people have bought to the UK, all they administer is fear dillusion and dissolution every four years.

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By *mateur100Man
40 weeks ago

nr faversham

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country "

You wouldn't think so but I've no confidence in any of them

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By *otMe66Man
40 weeks ago

Terra Firma

Yes they can and the most likely time for that to happen is shortly after they win.

The Labour Party have watched from the sidelines,, taking the reins is a different prospect.

Saying that, I think the change will initially stop the noise from the Tory haters that create so much unrest, hopefully we might get a couple of months grace.

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By *eroy1000Man
40 weeks ago

milton keynes

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country "

Well they seem so close to the Tories these days that I doubt we will see much difference. Hopefully if the policies of both Labour and the Tories are valid, Labour do a better job of implementing them.

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By *hrimper36Couple
40 weeks ago

Central France dept 36

Yes they can and no doubt will if they get in power.

Hand the running of the country over to mumsnet or all the Karen’s on Facebook.

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By *Cocksucker84Man
40 weeks ago

glasgow

It's very difficult to beat the shitshow that we have now. In an ideal world, they'll face total wipeout at the GE and they'll never get into power again, but this country unfortunately has a very short memory where the tories are concerned.

Labour will not be able to fix everything in a day, but their new deal for working people at least sounds promising, and we'll hopefully get some resource put back into our public services rather than into the pockets of corrupt Rishi and his mates. That's the only reason Sunak wanted to be PM in the first place. He wanted to protect his own interests.

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By *exy_HornyCouple
40 weeks ago

Leigh

"Labour will not be able to fix everything in a day, but their new deal for working people at least sounds promising, "

Although there are some things in that I can agree with, it goes way too far in other areas and will herald another 1970s style era of discontent, low productivity and high employment costs.

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By *oo hotCouple
40 weeks ago

North West

"Labour will not be able to fix everything in a day, but their new deal for working people at least sounds promising,

Although there are some things in that I can agree with, it goes way too far in other areas and will herald another 1970s style era of discontent, low productivity and high employment costs."

Why a 1970’s era and not a post-millennium era?

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By (user no longer on site)
40 weeks ago

"Labour will not be able to fix everything in a day, but their new deal for working people at least sounds promising,

Although there are some things in that I can agree with, it goes way too far in other areas and will herald another 1970s style era of discontent, low productivity and high employment costs.

Why a 1970’s era and not a post-millennium era?"

Because even the most ardent Tory looks back at 1997-2010 and accepts it was better than 2010-2024

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By *estivalMan
40 weeks ago

borehamwood

"It's very difficult to beat the shitshow that we have now. In an ideal world, they'll face total wipeout at the GE and they'll never get into power again, but this country unfortunately has a very short memory where the tories are concerned.

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By *aribbean King 1985Man
40 weeks ago

South West London

As much as I hate the Tories I fear a Labour Government more with their looney ideaologies. I won't be voting in the next election but if the very worse case for example was to happen and I had to choose, with great reluctance and fingers in my mouth I would have to vote Tories just to keep Labour out

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
40 weeks ago

golden fields

"As much as I hate the Tories I fear a Labour Government more with their looney ideaologies. I won't be voting in the next election but if the very worse case for example was to happen and I had to choose, with great reluctance and fingers in my mouth I would have to vote Tories just to keep Labour out"

I've asked a couple of times. Do you have an example of a "looney ideology" that Labour has?

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By *oo hotCouple
40 weeks ago

North West

I've asked a couple of times. Do you have an example of a "looney ideology" that Labour has?"

I also asked the same poster on another thread why he felt that Reform would be his go to vote of choice.

I think we all need to understand how people can portray themselves on anonymous platform like this.

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By (user no longer on site)
40 weeks ago

I've asked a couple of times. Do you have an example of a "looney ideology" that Labour has?"

“Something something something woke”

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By (user no longer on site)
40 weeks ago

[Removed by poster at 17/02/24 23:43:01]

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

Can you give an example of these loonie ideologies?

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By *Cocksucker84Man
39 weeks ago

glasgow

The problem Labour has is tory press, and they have to play the game so that they don't rock the boat. If voting conservative is still a good idea to people when even the tory leadership is saying there needs to be fundamental change (when they've been the party in power for 14 years) then there's no helping people.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"The problem Labour has is tory press ..."

The problem Labour has is their history. It's only 4 years ago that they had a leader who was proudly socialist, and was promising mass nationalisation and full employment. Now they have a new bloke who wants to be completely different, but can't seem to make his mind up on what they will be doing.

It's no wonder that some people are unsure about what Labour stands for.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"The problem Labour has is tory press ...

It's no wonder that some people are unsure about what Labour stands for."

I don't know if you intended it or not. But you just provided evidence for the other person being correct.

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By *oo hotCouple
39 weeks ago

North West

"The problem Labour has is tory press ...

It's no wonder that some people are unsure about what Labour stands for."

QED

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By *Cocksucker84Man
39 weeks ago

glasgow

"The problem Labour has is tory press ...

It's no wonder that some people are unsure about what Labour stands for."

Nobody's released a manifesto yet, but as aforementioned, their new deal for working people offers real and tangible change. Whenever the tories are interviewed at the moment or they're questioned about something sketchy about their failings, their response is, 'we have a plan' or 'we're sticking to the plan.' The overwhelming response at the moment according to polls and by-election results is they don't want the conservatives.

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By *oversfunCouple
39 weeks ago

ayrshire

Labour could be in trouble on wed when the snp put a motion for a ceasefire,do they back it or not

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By *aribbean King 1985Man
39 weeks ago

South West London

When Labour believe that transwomen should compete in sports against biological women thats a looney idea

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By *aribbean King 1985Man
39 weeks ago

South West London

When some Labour MPs believe tradespeople should use public transport to carry out work instead of driving vans just to save carbon footprint, looney idea

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By *aribbean King 1985Man
39 weeks ago

South West London

When Angela Raynor herslf said Labour plan to have ULEZ systems across the country, looney idea

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"When some Labour MPs believe tradespeople should use public transport to carry out work instead of driving vans just to save carbon footprint, looney idea"

I dunno how often you use the tube, but there’s plenty of tradespeople on it every single day. If all you’re lugging is a toolbox, and can get equipment delivered to site it makes perfect sense. Obviously it’s not suitable for all, but that’s never going to be the case.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"When some Labour MPs believe tradespeople should use public transport to carry out work instead of driving vans just to save carbon footprint, looney idea"

Out of interest, who first announced London’s ULEZ?

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By *aribbean King 1985Man
39 weeks ago

South West London

I think the other week a Labour MP suggested that dead people should be able to change their sex on their death certificate. While its not Labour policy as far as I know its just something that could happen under their Government which they likely to implement if they agree to it, looney idea

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"I think the other week a Labour MP suggested that dead people should be able to change their sex on their death certificate. While its not Labour policy as far as I know its just something that could happen under their Government which they likely to implement if they agree to it, looney idea"

I don’t think you read that story correctly.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"The problem Labour has is tory press ..."

"The problem Labour has is their history. It's only 4 years ago that they had a leader who was proudly socialist, and was promising mass nationalisation and full employment. Now they have a new bloke who wants to be completely different, but can't seem to make his mind up on what they will be doing.

It's no wonder that some people are unsure about what Labour stands for."

"I don't know if you intended it or not. But you just provided evidence for the other person being correct."

Would you mind explaining to me how what I said proved the other guys statement?

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

I'm not 100oc sure what labours policies are today. But that's probably not unusual for an opposition. Tbh, I have no idea what the meaningful Tory policies are and they've been in power !

I also suspect that any policies will need to be watered down, and take years to have an effect. That's not a comment on either party, it's just life. There's no magic bullet.

What I don't like about thue current crop of Tory MPs is their lack of integrity and poor behaviour.

The continuing unwaivering support of Boris got my goat. Their statements sounded like something Pat puts up here as a wind up.

The behaviour of Dorries after the peerage that never happened saddened me. A lack of character.

Whatever your views in Truss, it feels against the spirit of the resignation honours to put people up for it after such a short and damaging period in office.

And that's before the load of other poor behaviour that springs to mind. Unofficial meetings. Lock down parties. Inflamatory language (I expect better of my representatives regardless of views)

Now, I don't think this is something that is unique to the Tory party, indeed I don't think the last few years has been representative of the Tory party as a whole.

But from 2019 onwards their MPs have become a shadow of the party they say they are and I do struggle to see a labour government being quite as bad in terms of behaviour.

I also believe that a cleanly swept Tory party wouldn't be as bad. This generation needs to be massively culled.

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By *0shadesOfFilthMan
39 weeks ago

nearby

Good luck to labour, where are they are going to find the money to fund public services. Highest tax rises in 70 years has shown no improvement.

Like the tories, there will be a plan, and if all fails they can say they tried but it was such a mess, not repairable

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan
39 weeks ago

Hastings

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country "

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job. "

Why is the real test if they win a second term?

Surely the real test is if they start to make improvements in this country, start working for British people instead of against us.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
39 weeks ago

Central

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job.

Why is the real test if they win a second term?

Surely the real test is if they start to make improvements in this country, start working for British people instead of against us. "

With so much spending committed to by the conservatives, for after the election, little turnaround can be achieved by Labour in the first term. It's a hard sell, trying to get reelected, after a term of very little getting achieved.

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By *otMe66Man
39 weeks ago

Terra Firma

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job.

Why is the real test if they win a second term?

Surely the real test is if they start to make improvements in this country, start working for British people instead of against us. "

how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

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By *ovebjsMan
39 weeks ago

Bristol

Labour or Tory all you can look forward to is more tax more immigration more net zero less productivity

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By *erri_kissesTV/TS
39 weeks ago

Islington

I mean, are you a bot?? You can’t be here in order to source sex ffs

- Punishing the weak & infirm for being weak & infirm

- Inflicting austerity on the nation to bail out fellow eton dogshaggers

-Letting a deadly virus work its way through our nan’s etc etc

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job.

Why is the real test if they win a second term?

Surely the real test is if they start to make improvements in this country, start working for British people instead of against us.

how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?"

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By *erri_kissesTV/TS
39 weeks ago

Islington

*nans

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job.

Why is the real test if they win a second term?

Surely the real test is if they start to make improvements in this country, start working for British people instead of against us.

how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?"

Have a quick look at the actions of the government over the last 13 years.

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By *otMe66Man
39 weeks ago

Terra Firma

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job.

Why is the real test if they win a second term?

Surely the real test is if they start to make improvements in this country, start working for British people instead of against us.

how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

Have a quick look at the actions of the government over the last 13 years.

Nothing specific then?

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By *otMe66Man
39 weeks ago

Terra Firma

"I mean, are you a bot?? You can’t be here in order to source sex ffs

- Punishing the weak & infirm for being weak & infirm

- Inflicting austerity on the nation to bail out fellow eton dogshaggers

-Letting a deadly virus work its way through our nan’s etc etc

The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job.

Why is the real test if they win a second term?

Surely the real test is if they start to make improvements in this country, start working for British people instead of against us.

how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?"

all very personal and nothing of any substance, telling really...

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By *oversfunCouple
39 weeks ago

ayrshire

"When some Labour MPs believe tradespeople should use public transport to carry out work instead of driving vans just to save carbon footprint, looney idea"
the rates tradespeople charge ,surely they can buy a new up to date van

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By *oversfunCouple
39 weeks ago

ayrshire

Any loony tory policies you want to tell us about

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job.

Why is the real test if they win a second term?

Surely the real test is if they start to make improvements in this country, start working for British people instead of against us.

how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?"

*cough* Brexit *cough*

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By *oversfunCouple
39 weeks ago

ayrshire

"Good luck to labour, where are they are going to find the money to fund public services. Highest tax rises in 70 years has shown no improvement.

Like the tories, there will be a plan, and if all fails they can say they tried but it was such a mess, not repairable "
will they not have the same money that tories say they will use

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By *oversfunCouple
39 weeks ago

ayrshire

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job. "
should ppl not just see how the first term goes

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By *Cocksucker84Man
39 weeks ago

glasgow

"Good luck to labour, where are they are going to find the money to fund public services. Highest tax rises in 70 years has shown no improvement.

Like the tories, there will be a plan, and if all fails they can say they tried but it was such a mess, not repairable "

Well probably from closing off all of the dodgy loopholes the tories have been using to protect their own interests while regular people suffer and to make things just that bit more fair for working people

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job.

Why is the real test if they win a second term?

Surely the real test is if they start to make improvements in this country, start working for British people instead of against us.

how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

Have a quick look at the actions of the government over the last 13 years.

Nothing specific then? "

Let's not get sidetracked from the point with less and less relevant questions.

If you have some bizarre opinion that the Conservative government had our interests in mind since being in power. Maybe a new thread?

Meanwhile, the way I think the real test for a hypothetical Labour government, is if they work to make Britain better for us.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?"

"*cough* Brexit *cough*"

Not the best example. They did ask the people what they wanted, and of those that could be bothered to respond, the (only just) majority said yes please. So that's a policy where the government worked to give the people what they wanted.

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off."

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off."

Did the public want to leave the single market/customs union?

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit."

That's some mental gymnastics you are doing there. Government asked people to vote for Brexit. People voted. Hence government was responsible for Brexit. It's almost as if people didn't have free will and were forced to vote at gun point.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories."

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?"

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers. "

Or maybe.. Just maybe.. Some people valued different things... Some people valued long term strategy.. Some people valued sovereignty.. Either way, no one knows clearly. The whole point of a referendum was to give people the responsibility to choose. You can't then go back and say it was the government that is responsible for the outcome of the referendum.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Or maybe.. Just maybe.. Some people valued different things... Some people valued long term strategy.. Some people valued sovereignty..

I'm certain some people didn't pay attention and thought that this is what Brexit would bring.

Either way, no one knows clearly. The whole point of a referendum was to give people the responsibility to choose. You can't then go back and say it was the government that is responsible for the outcome of the referendum."

Not entirely. I'm just agreeing with the other chap who proposed that there is an argument to suggest that Brexit is one of the things this government has done to the people.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *eroy1000Man
39 weeks ago

milton keynes

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

I would say the government were responsible for holding the referendum in the first place but not the actual result. If I recall correctly, the official government policy was to remain in the EU. It was politician's from across different parties that worked together on both sides that campaigned. Maybe you could argue that the government were not legally obliged to carry out the result but that had its own dangers.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Sure the government might have just avoided the referendum. But if I remember correctly, Cameron went into it assuming that remain will win. Anyway, it's a big decision and it's reasonable to expect people to make the choice.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit? "

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?"

"*cough* Brexit *cough*"

"Not the best example. They did ask the people what they wanted, and of those that could be bothered to respond, the (only just) majority said yes please. So that's a policy where the government worked to give the people what they wanted.

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off."

"Did the public want to leave the single market/customs union?"

Nobody knows, because the question wasn't asked.

I'd have to believe that they did. Given the 3 options of a) staying in, b) leaving completely, and c) leaving the EU but keeping the customs union and remaining tied to EU regulations, I can't imagine anyone voting for option c. Those that wanted in wanted fully in, and those that wanted out wanted fully out.

But getting back to my point, it's not the best example of Tories working against the interests of the populace, since the people were only asked one question, and the government gave them what they asked for.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Or maybe.. Just maybe.. Some people valued different things... Some people valued long term strategy.. Some people valued sovereignty..

I'm certain some people didn't pay attention and thought that this is what Brexit would bring.

Not entirely. I'm just agreeing with the other chap who proposed that there is an argument to suggest that Brexit is one of the things this government has done to the people. "

It's not something the government did to people. It's something people asked and the government did for the people.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible."

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced. "

If we are going to be in single market and custom unions, we would still be bound by EU regulations. There isn't even a point to it.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If we are going to be in single market and custom unions, we would still be bound by EU regulations. There isn't even a point to it. "

You’re trying to take this into a different area.

The government decided the nature of Brexit, they could have chosen an EFTA type arrangement which would have been less impactful whilst still delivering Brexit (that is leaving the EU)

Nobody decided to do that except for the government.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *astandFeistyCouple
39 weeks ago

Bournemouth

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced. "

If you're saying TM ruled it out and then went and won an election, then Boris won an election when he was 'all out', then we can safely say the public wanted out.

You can't have it every which way

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *rimly FiendishMan
39 weeks ago

Heath Hayes

With Labour in charge we would be well and truly f....d . Couldn't run for bus let alone a country.

Mass immigration, out of control spending etc etc.

Look at what Sadiq Khan has done in London and one of the largest councils in the country bankrupted, they now owe more than they did before equal pay row. Top money management. And the place is a shit hole. Dirty,litter,rampant crime.

All you Labour lovers,be careful what you wish for.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

[Removed by poster at 18/02/24 16:56:53]

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If we are going to be in single market and custom unions, we would still be bound by EU regulations. There isn't even a point to it.

You’re trying to take this into a different area.

The government decided the nature of Brexit, they could have chosen an EFTA type arrangement which would have been less impactful whilst still delivering Brexit (that is leaving the EU)

Nobody decided to do that except for the government. "

Whatever fastandfiesty said above

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If you're saying TM ruled it out and then went and won an election, then Boris won an election when he was 'all out', then we can safely say the public wanted out.

You can't have it every which way

Well in 2019 more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones - so I’m not sure your argument that the public wanted out holds any water.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If we are going to be in single market and custom unions, we would still be bound by EU regulations. There isn't even a point to it.

You’re trying to take this into a different area.

The government decided the nature of Brexit, they could have chosen an EFTA type arrangement which would have been less impactful whilst still delivering Brexit (that is leaving the EU)

Nobody decided to do that except for the government.

Whatever fastandfiesty said above

As per my response.

We can’t argue that the public asked for Brexit.

We can argue that the government dictated what Brexit meant

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *astandFeistyCouple
39 weeks ago

Bournemouth

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If you're saying TM ruled it out and then went and won an election, then Boris won an election when he was 'all out', then we can safely say the public wanted out.

You can't have it every which way

Well in 2019 more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones - so I’m not sure your argument that the public wanted out holds any water. "

You're trying to claim that not one single person voting for any other party would've voted 'clean break' if we did have a second referendum.

The results were clear, 2 elections in a row were won by the party claiming to 'get Brexit done'.

Nice try though

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If you're saying TM ruled it out and then went and won an election, then Boris won an election when he was 'all out', then we can safely say the public wanted out.

You can't have it every which way

Well in 2019 more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones - so I’m not sure your argument that the public wanted out holds any water.

You're trying to claim that not one single person voting for any other party would've voted 'clean break' if we did have a second referendum.

The results were clear, 2 elections in a row were won by the party claiming to 'get Brexit done'.

Nice try though

No, that’s you trying to put words into other people’s mouths again

The point remains that the public voted to leave the EU, and the government then decided the exact nature of how we would leave.

Anyone arguing otherwise is *undeniably* wrong.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
39 weeks ago

Terra Firma

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If we are going to be in single market and custom unions, we would still be bound by EU regulations. There isn't even a point to it.

You’re trying to take this into a different area.

The government decided the nature of Brexit, they could have chosen an EFTA type arrangement which would have been less impactful whilst still delivering Brexit (that is leaving the EU)

Nobody decided to do that except for the government.

Whatever fastandfiesty said above

As per my response.

We can’t argue that the public asked for Brexit.

We can argue that the government dictated what Brexit meant "

See those straws over there? Yes the ones you are clutching

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If we are going to be in single market and custom unions, we would still be bound by EU regulations. There isn't even a point to it.

You’re trying to take this into a different area.

The government decided the nature of Brexit, they could have chosen an EFTA type arrangement which would have been less impactful whilst still delivering Brexit (that is leaving the EU)

Nobody decided to do that except for the government.

Whatever fastandfiesty said above

As per my response.

We can’t argue that the public asked for Brexit.

We can argue that the government dictated what Brexit meant

See those straws over there? Yes the ones you are clutching

Hey, feel free to point out what I said that was incorrect. I’ll wait.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
39 weeks ago

Terra Firma

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country

The real test is will they win a second term? That must be the feeling of the people. And if they have done a good job.

Why is the real test if they win a second term?

Surely the real test is if they start to make improvements in this country, start working for British people instead of against us.

how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

Have a quick look at the actions of the government over the last 13 years.

Nothing specific then?

Let's not get sidetracked from the point with less and less relevant questions.

If you have some bizarre opinion that the Conservative government had our interests in mind since being in power. Maybe a new thread?

Meanwhile, the way I think the real test for a hypothetical Labour government, is if they work to make Britain better for us."

You need to keep up with yourself, I asked a question based on YOUR statement.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
39 weeks ago

Terra Firma

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If we are going to be in single market and custom unions, we would still be bound by EU regulations. There isn't even a point to it.

You’re trying to take this into a different area.

The government decided the nature of Brexit, they could have chosen an EFTA type arrangement which would have been less impactful whilst still delivering Brexit (that is leaving the EU)

Nobody decided to do that except for the government.

Whatever fastandfiesty said above

As per my response.

We can’t argue that the public asked for Brexit.

We can argue that the government dictated what Brexit meant

See those straws over there? Yes the ones you are clutching

Hey, feel free to point out what I said that was incorrect. I’ll wait. "

Most of what you said will cover it...

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If we are going to be in single market and custom unions, we would still be bound by EU regulations. There isn't even a point to it.

You’re trying to take this into a different area.

The government decided the nature of Brexit, they could have chosen an EFTA type arrangement which would have been less impactful whilst still delivering Brexit (that is leaving the EU)

Nobody decided to do that except for the government.

Whatever fastandfiesty said above

As per my response.

We can’t argue that the public asked for Brexit.

We can argue that the government dictated what Brexit meant

See those straws over there? Yes the ones you are clutching

Hey, feel free to point out what I said that was incorrect. I’ll wait.

Most of what you said will cover it...

No no, I want you to tell me where I’m wrong.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *astandFeistyCouple
39 weeks ago

Bournemouth

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If you're saying TM ruled it out and then went and won an election, then Boris won an election when he was 'all out', then we can safely say the public wanted out.

You can't have it every which way

Well in 2019 more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones - so I’m not sure your argument that the public wanted out holds any water.

You're trying to claim that not one single person voting for any other party would've voted 'clean break' if we did have a second referendum.

The results were clear, 2 elections in a row were won by the party claiming to 'get Brexit done'.

Nice try though

No, that’s you trying to put words into other people’s mouths again

The point remains that the public voted to leave the EU, and the government then decided the exact nature of how we would leave.

Anyone arguing otherwise is *undeniably* wrong."

I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth, you said "more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones".

If you aren't arguing to none of those voters would've voted for a 'clean break', then what exactly is your point?

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By *otMe66Man
39 weeks ago

Terra Firma

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If we are going to be in single market and custom unions, we would still be bound by EU regulations. There isn't even a point to it.

You’re trying to take this into a different area.

The government decided the nature of Brexit, they could have chosen an EFTA type arrangement which would have been less impactful whilst still delivering Brexit (that is leaving the EU)

Nobody decided to do that except for the government.

Whatever fastandfiesty said above

As per my response.

We can’t argue that the public asked for Brexit.

We can argue that the government dictated what Brexit meant

See those straws over there? Yes the ones you are clutching

Hey, feel free to point out what I said that was incorrect. I’ll wait.

Most of what you said will cover it...

No no, I want you to tell me where I’m wrong. "

You are wrong about the government being responsible brexit, the people of the UK decided they wanted brexit. You are always wrong about brexit to be fair, you know that though.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If we are going to be in single market and custom unions, we would still be bound by EU regulations. There isn't even a point to it.

You’re trying to take this into a different area.

The government decided the nature of Brexit, they could have chosen an EFTA type arrangement which would have been less impactful whilst still delivering Brexit (that is leaving the EU)

Nobody decided to do that except for the government.

Whatever fastandfiesty said above

As per my response.

We can’t argue that the public asked for Brexit.

We can argue that the government dictated what Brexit meant

See those straws over there? Yes the ones you are clutching

Hey, feel free to point out what I said that was incorrect. I’ll wait.

Most of what you said will cover it...

No no, I want you to tell me where I’m wrong.

You are wrong about the government being responsible brexit, the people of the UK decided they wanted brexit. You are always wrong about brexit to be fair, you know that though."

Were you asked if you wanted to leave the customs union or single market?

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If you're saying TM ruled it out and then went and won an election, then Boris won an election when he was 'all out', then we can safely say the public wanted out.

You can't have it every which way

Well in 2019 more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones - so I’m not sure your argument that the public wanted out holds any water.

You're trying to claim that not one single person voting for any other party would've voted 'clean break' if we did have a second referendum.

The results were clear, 2 elections in a row were won by the party claiming to 'get Brexit done'.

Nice try though

No, that’s you trying to put words into other people’s mouths again

The point remains that the public voted to leave the EU, and the government then decided the exact nature of how we would leave.

Anyone arguing otherwise is *undeniably* wrong.

I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth, you said "more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones".

If you aren't arguing to none of those voters would've voted for a 'clean break', then what exactly is your point?

I stated a fact in response to your claim that Johnson’s victory was a clear display of support for Brexit by the public. If that were the case, why did more people support second referendum backing parties than Brexit ones?

Is it because you can’t apply referendum logic to a general election? Because I’d agree with that - but then why raise it?

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Or maybe.. Just maybe.. Some people valued different things... Some people valued long term strategy.. Some people valued sovereignty..

I'm certain some people didn't pay attention and thought that this is what Brexit would bring.

Not entirely. I'm just agreeing with the other chap who proposed that there is an argument to suggest that Brexit is one of the things this government has done to the people.

It's not something the government did to people. It's something people asked and the government did for the people."

...based on a big bag of lies.

I'm not saying it was entirely the fault of the current government. But to lots of people, they bear some of the responsibility.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
39 weeks ago

Bournemouth

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If you're saying TM ruled it out and then went and won an election, then Boris won an election when he was 'all out', then we can safely say the public wanted out.

You can't have it every which way

Well in 2019 more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones - so I’m not sure your argument that the public wanted out holds any water.

You're trying to claim that not one single person voting for any other party would've voted 'clean break' if we did have a second referendum.

The results were clear, 2 elections in a row were won by the party claiming to 'get Brexit done'.

Nice try though

No, that’s you trying to put words into other people’s mouths again

The point remains that the public voted to leave the EU, and the government then decided the exact nature of how we would leave.

Anyone arguing otherwise is *undeniably* wrong.

I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth, you said "more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones".

If you aren't arguing to none of those voters would've voted for a 'clean break', then what exactly is your point?

Is it because you can’t apply referendum logic to a general election? Because I’d agree with that - but then why raise it? "

I didn't say Johnsons victory, I said 2 in a row. Are you still attempting to claim that no one voting for those other parties would've voted 'clean break' in a second referendum?

You started this off with:

"Did the public want to leave the single market/customs union?"

The answer is you don't have a clue but are trying to argue otherwise, nothing new there

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If you're saying TM ruled it out and then went and won an election, then Boris won an election when he was 'all out', then we can safely say the public wanted out.

You can't have it every which way

Well in 2019 more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones - so I’m not sure your argument that the public wanted out holds any water.

You're trying to claim that not one single person voting for any other party would've voted 'clean break' if we did have a second referendum.

The results were clear, 2 elections in a row were won by the party claiming to 'get Brexit done'.

Nice try though

No, that’s you trying to put words into other people’s mouths again

The point remains that the public voted to leave the EU, and the government then decided the exact nature of how we would leave.

Anyone arguing otherwise is *undeniably* wrong.

I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth, you said "more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones".

If you aren't arguing to none of those voters would've voted for a 'clean break', then what exactly is your point?

Is it because you can’t apply referendum logic to a general election? Because I’d agree with that - but then why raise it?

I didn't say Johnsons victory, I said 2 in a row. Are you still attempting to claim that no one voting for those other parties would've voted 'clean break' in a second referendum?

You started this off with:

"Did the public want to leave the single market/customs union?"

The answer is you don't have a clue but are trying to argue otherwise, nothing new there

No, I don’t have a clue - but the point is that the government *decided* what Brexit meant. They made the decision, not the public.

Glad we cleared that up in the end. I had assumed you understood the conversation.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
39 weeks ago

Bournemouth

As we can clearly see, the answer to the OP is the Tories are c*nts and there's not a chance Labour could ever do anything worse than them

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

For the slow of thinking, I hope this clarifies the situation about the government deciding to enact ‘their’ Brexit:

The people voted to leave the EU - unarguable.

The government then chose the Brexit that we ended up with. In an alternate universe, the govt elect to have an EFTA type arrangement and remain in the customs union and single market. In another universe the govt elects to go ‘no deal’ and accepts that ensuing chaos.

In *all three* of those examples the public’s vote would have been respected (that is to leave the EU).

- The difference is decisions made by the government, not by the public.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
39 weeks ago

Bournemouth

"how did this government work against the people? Anything specific?

*cough* Brexit *cough*

I'm sure you can come up with better examples of where the Tory government has done something that clearly makes the majority worse off.

You could argue that those who currently occupy the upper echelons of the Tory party were those who told people to vote for Brexit, which they did, making them worse off.

You could argue that Cameron promised a referendum assuming people wouldn't be silly enough to vote against their own interests.

There's a decent argument to be made that the government are responsible for Brexit.

No but they voted based on a bunch of bullshit fed to them by the leaves campaigns, and by most of the current top tier Tories.

Do you know exactly why every individual voted for it?

No, of course some people might have seen through the bullshit, and voted for us all to be worse off anyway. Or some might have been billionaires that wanted to avoid paying taxes.

There are of course some outliers.

Did the government decide the exact nature of Brexit?

The government negotiated with EU to figure out what's feasible.

Let’s not rewrite history here - Theresa May ruled out single market and customs union membership before negotiations commenced.

If you're saying TM ruled it out and then went and won an election, then Boris won an election when he was 'all out', then we can safely say the public wanted out.

You can't have it every which way

Well in 2019 more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones - so I’m not sure your argument that the public wanted out holds any water.

You're trying to claim that not one single person voting for any other party would've voted 'clean break' if we did have a second referendum.

The results were clear, 2 elections in a row were won by the party claiming to 'get Brexit done'.

Nice try though

No, that’s you trying to put words into other people’s mouths again

The point remains that the public voted to leave the EU, and the government then decided the exact nature of how we would leave.

Anyone arguing otherwise is *undeniably* wrong.

I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth, you said "more people voted for second referendum backing parties than did for Brexit backing ones".

If you aren't arguing to none of those voters would've voted for a 'clean break', then what exactly is your point?

Is it because you can’t apply referendum logic to a general election? Because I’d agree with that - but then why raise it?

I didn't say Johnsons victory, I said 2 in a row. Are you still attempting to claim that no one voting for those other parties would've voted 'clean break' in a second referendum?

You started this off with:

"Did the public want to leave the single market/customs union?"

The answer is you don't have a clue but are trying to argue otherwise, nothing new there

No, I don’t have a clue - but the point is that the government *decided* what Brexit meant. They made the decision, not the public.

Glad we cleared that up in the end. I had assumed you understood the conversation."

Lose the condescension and narcissistic tones mate, it's getting really fucking boring.

You may be right on the Govt deciding, you're not right on it not being the same choice as the public. You've just confirmed that yourself.

Sometimes you just need to take a step back and read what you're writing before posting it or you end up looking like a tit.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"For the slow of thinking, I hope this clarifies the situation about the government deciding to enact ‘their’ Brexit:

The people voted to leave the EU - unarguable."

Accurate. Good so far.

"The government then chose the Brexit that we ended up with. In an alternate universe, the govt elect to have an EFTA type arrangement and remain in the customs union and single market. In another universe the govt elects to go ‘no deal’ and accepts that ensuing chaos.

In *all three* of those examples the public’s vote would have been respected (that is to leave the EU)."

Accurate. Things could have been done differently.

"The difference is decisions made by the government, not by the public."

Still accurate, the government chose the final form of Brexit

But all of that accuracy is irrelevant, because you were arguing that 'hard Brexit' is not what the people wanted, and none of the facts above prove that.

We've already agreed that the people weren't asked, so we can't know what they thought. I've outlined my reasoning for believing that those who voted for Brexit would have also voted for leaving the Customs Union. You've not said anything that contradicts that, or gives another theory, you've just gone off on a tangent.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"For the slow of thinking, I hope this clarifies the situation about the government deciding to enact ‘their’ Brexit:

The people voted to leave the EU - unarguable.

Accurate. Good so far.

In *all three* of those examples the public’s vote would have been respected (that is to leave the EU).

Accurate. Things could have been done differently.

The difference is decisions made by the government, not by the public.

Still accurate, the government chose the final form of Brexit

But all of that accuracy is irrelevant, because you were arguing that 'hard Brexit' is not what the people wanted, and none of the facts above prove that.

I’ve not argued that hard Brexit wasn’t what the public wanted - though I suspect that only a minority did.

This thread is about when government has made a decision that has negatively impacted the public. And Brexit did just that.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"I’ve not argued that hard Brexit wasn’t what the public wanted - though I suspect that only a minority did.

This thread is about when government has made a decision that has negatively impacted the public. And Brexit did just that. "

For the third time, it's a poor example. As the discussion above shows, you suspect that only a few people would have wanted a hard Brexit, but others think very differently. That makes Brexit a bad example of a thing that has been imposed upon us by an unfeeling government. It works in your head, but it doesn't in the heads of the people that you are trying to communicate with.

Why keep using it when there are so many other examples of the Tories treating us badly?

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By *otMe66Man
39 weeks ago

Terra Firma

It is like watching a therapy session that goes on and on, but the patient never finds what they are looking for

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

[Removed by poster at 18/02/24 19:26:08]

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"I’ve not argued that hard Brexit wasn’t what the public wanted - though I suspect that only a minority did.

This thread is about when government has made a decision that has negatively impacted the public. And Brexit did just that.

Why keep using it when there are so many other examples of the Tories treating us badly?"

I use it because it’s an easily recognised example of govt making a decision on behalf of the public.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"It is like watching a therapy session that goes on and on, but the patient never finds what they are looking for"

Did you want to point out what I said that was incorrect? Because, you know, I’m still waiting.

You waded in accusing me of clutching at straws, when on actual fact (as backed up by another poster) everything I said is entirely accurate re: Brexit.

You’ve persistently sniped rather than respond when I’ve simply asked you what I’ve said was incorrect.

So it’s time to put your big boy pants on now - tell me what of the below is incorrect:

The people voted to leave the EU - unarguable.

In *all three* of those examples the public’s vote would have been respected (that is to leave the EU).

- The difference is decisions made by the government, not by the public.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"It is like watching a therapy session that goes on and on, but the patient never finds what they are looking for

Did you want to point out what I said that was incorrect? Because, you know, I’m still waiting.

You waded in accusing me of clutching at straws, when on actual fact (as backed up by another poster) everything I said is entirely accurate re: Brexit.

You’ve persistently sniped rather than respond when I’ve simply asked you what I’ve said was incorrect.

So it’s time to put your big boy pants on now - tell me what of the below is incorrect:

The people voted to leave the EU - unarguable.

In *all three* of those examples the public’s vote would have been respected (that is to leave the EU).

- The difference is decisions made by the government, not by the public.

"
I'd argue the decision was made by the people voting in May (ish) and then Boris. And tbf to the Tories they were open about the way they would exit.

I guess one may argue the Tories didn't have a majority rule, but then all policies become fair game.

I'd support a view that the majority probably wouldn't have chosen the flavour we had. If likely agree that the majority may have chosen to stay in if the choice was remain or this version. But I struggle to put that on the Tory plate. It's a combo of a question that was essentially "do you want lasagna for tea, or something else" followed by a load of endowment effect whereby people became convinced they had to vote for mutton stew because they could go back on saying no to lasagna.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"It is like watching a therapy session that goes on and on, but the patient never finds what they are looking for"

People will keep trying to find the elusive upside to Brexit. But you're right. They'll never find it.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"It is like watching a therapy session that goes on and on, but the patient never finds what they are looking for

People will keep trying to find the elusive upside to Brexit. But you're right. They'll never find it."

It’s not even about upside now when you have people who seem to deny that the tories had any involvement in deciding the nature of Brexit.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"Why keep using it when there are so many other examples of the Tories treating us badly?"

"I use it because it’s an easily recognised example of govt making a decision on behalf of the public."

But you weren't using it for that. You were using it as an answer to the question "how did this government work against the people?". As I've said multiple times now, it's a poor answer to that question.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"Why keep using it when there are so many other examples of the Tories treating us badly?

I use it because it’s an easily recognised example of govt making a decision on behalf of the public.

The government did impact assessments on a variety of Brexit ‘types’ - which means they knew that there were less damaging versions of Brexit. (This was well publicised at the time).

You may not accept it as a good answer, that’s entirely up to you, and I’m not sure I could convince you otherwise. At least you’re gracious enough to accept that what I’ve said is correct

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"It is like watching a therapy session that goes on and on, but the patient never finds what they are looking for"

"Did you want to point out what I said that was incorrect? Because, you know, I’m still waiting.

You waded in accusing me of clutching at straws, when on actual fact (as backed up by another poster) everything I said is entirely accurate re: Brexit."

Oh no, you don't get to use my post to attack someone else. What I said was that all of the words you were using were accurate, but your post in its entirety was misleading as you weren't addressing the question asked.

The other poster is right that you are clutching at straws. You are desperately trying to shift focus away from what you originally said so that you can claim a 'win'. Bad form.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"It is like watching a therapy session that goes on and on, but the patient never finds what they are looking for

Did you want to point out what I said that was incorrect? Because, you know, I’m still waiting.

You waded in accusing me of clutching at straws, when on actual fact (as backed up by another poster) everything I said is entirely accurate re: Brexit.

The other poster is right that you are clutching at straws. You are desperately trying to shift focus away from what you originally said so that you can claim a 'win'. Bad form."

Oh my bad, I forgot how everyone on here knows what other people meant when they weren’t the ones to say it.

I’ve reread my posts throughout this thread. Guess what? I’ve not shifted focus at all.

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"At least you’re gracious enough to accept that what I’ve said is correct"

You don't get to do that either. Claiming that I've accepted that all of your posts in this thread are correct. No, no, no.

What I said is that one of your posts was factually correct, but misleading when used in this discussion. As a whole, you've been disingenuous to the extreme in this thread, and now you're making it worse by pretending that my words were an endorsement of you. Stop it now.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"At least you’re gracious enough to accept that what I’ve said is correct

You don't get to do that either. Claiming that I've accepted that all of your posts in this thread are correct. No, no, no.

It’s alright, I’m gonna tap out now, because this thread (and frankly this whole politics forum) is a cesspit of unmanageable idiocy.

I thought Morley was thick but I fear the average intelligence actually dropped when he left.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"I’ve reread my posts throughout this thread. Guess what? I’ve not shifted focus at all."

Go re-read them again. At the start you brought up Brexit as an answer to the question "how did this government work against the people". By the end you were claiming that you brought it up as an example of "an easily recognised example of govt making a decision on behalf of the public". Those are very different things, and I don't believe that you can't see the difference.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"I’ve reread my posts throughout this thread. Guess what? I’ve not shifted focus at all.

You’re right, I should have phrased it differently. ‘The Brexit chosen is a clear example of the government working against the public by making a decision which isn’t in their best interests’

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

So, back to the original question, can Labour do worse that the Tories?

I'm guessing that the train drivers' strike will still be on by the time Labour gets into power. Given the amount of vocal support they've given the unions, they'll have to accede to the demands. Will any other unions suddenly decide that they have been left out of negotiations for too long and start their own strike?

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"So, back to the original question, can Labour do worse that the Tories?

If Labour have any sense they’ll allow TOCS to negotiate with ASLEF, as has happened since the start of privatisation.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"I’ve reread my posts throughout this thread. Guess what? I’ve not shifted focus at all."

"Go re-read them again. At the start you brought up Brexit as an answer to the question "how did this government work against the people". By the end you were claiming that you brought it up as an example of "an easily recognised example of govt making a decision on behalf of the public". Those are very different things, and I don't believe that you can't see the difference."

"You’re right, I should have phrased it differently. ‘The Brexit chosen is a clear example of the government working against the public by making a decision which isn’t in their best interests’"

I thought you'd gone.

But since you're still here and trying a new angle, I'll say it again. It's a really poor example. As several people have said above, it's not at all clear whether people wanted a hard Brexit or not. I think they did, you think they didn't. Everyone (including you) agrees that they weren't asked, so we can't know. Why the hell are you trying desperately to win this argument, when you know that you're wrong?

As I've also said several times, just pick another of the things that the Tories have done that has disadvantaged the populace. You can't be short of examples.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"If Labour have any sense they’ll allow TOCS to negotiate with ASLEF, as has happened since the start of privatisation."

Why would they do that? Labour have already said that they are going to re-nationalise all the railways. What incentive do the TOCs have to come to an agreement if the problem is going to go away by itself in a relatively short time?

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By *astandFeistyCouple
39 weeks ago

Bournemouth

"I’ve reread my posts throughout this thread. Guess what? I’ve not shifted focus at all.

I thought you'd gone.

As I've also said several times, just pick another of the things that the Tories have done that has disadvantaged the populace. You can't be short of examples."

Narcissistic, I said it above. So far, I'm being proven correct

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"I’ve reread my posts throughout this thread. Guess what? I’ve not shifted focus at all.

I thought you'd gone.

As I've also said several times, just pick another of the things that the Tories have done that has disadvantaged the populace. You can't be short of examples."

*sigh* I see now where you’ve misunderstood.

Even if the whole country wanted a hard Brexit except for me, pursuing Brexit as they did was still an example of the government working against the interests of the public - as the impact assessments revealed.

What you want and what is in your interests are not necessarily the same thing.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"If Labour have any sense they’ll allow TOCS to negotiate with ASLEF, as has happened since the start of privatisation.

They would do that to prevent the strikes, because nationalisation isn’t going to happen in a relatively short time - it’ll take years waiting for contracts to expire.

My TOC has a deal ready to put to ASLEF. They’re not allowed to do so at present, thanks to the DFT.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

Actually the ASLEF strikes are another example of the Tories working against the populace.

The strikes probably could have ended a long time ago, if the DFT didn’t ignore negotiations altogether, or handed them back to TOCS as is normal for the industry.

Good thinking

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

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By *orses and PoniesMan
39 weeks ago

Ealing

"For the slow of thinking, I hope this clarifies the situation about the government deciding to enact ‘their’ Brexit:

The people voted to leave the EU - unarguable.

In *all three* of those examples the public’s vote would have been respected (that is to leave the EU).

- The difference is decisions made by the government, not by the public.

"
. Regardless of how you want to present it the government simply implemented what people wanted. Those who believe in democracy did not complain about their actions . To put it simply as acknowledged by your post the electorate voted to leave .

The government then put in process the mechanism to leave. However those who did not believe in democracy attempted to obstruct the process at every stage.

Luckily for those who believe in democracy Boris Johnson was elected with a massive majority and was able to put the wishes of the electorate into action .

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"For the slow of thinking, I hope this clarifies the situation about the government deciding to enact ‘their’ Brexit:

The people voted to leave the EU - unarguable.

In *all three* of those examples the public’s vote would have been respected (that is to leave the EU).

- The difference is decisions made by the government, not by the public.

. Regardless of how you want to present it the government simply implemented what people wanted. Those who believe in democracy did not complain about their actions . To put it simply as acknowledged by your post the electorate voted to leave .

The government then put in process the mechanism to leave. However those who did not believe in democracy attempted to obstruct the process at every stage.

Luckily for those who believe in democracy Boris Johnson was elected with a massive majority and was able to put the wishes of the electorate into action . "

This isn’t a debate about whether we voted to leave or not. We did, and we left. But the government decided the manner in which we would leave.

Given polling now, it seems that the majority of the public think the government did a bad job, but that’s not relevant. Just poignant.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!"

No, I mean this place is full of people (you included, at times) who read what you want to read before deciding what you thought a post said, rather than what it said

You’ve already demonstrated once in this thread that you didn’t understand.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!"

Indeed your very first post in response to me was incorrect. At that point you handed over to others

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By *orses and PoniesMan
39 weeks ago

Ealing

"I’ve reread my posts throughout this thread. Guess what? I’ve not shifted focus at all.

I thought you'd gone.

As I've also said several times, just pick another of the things that the Tories have done that has disadvantaged the populace. You can't be short of examples.

*sigh* I see now where you’ve misunderstood.

What you want and what is in your interests are not necessarily the same thing.

"
. How could Brexit work against the interests of the public? Do you ever read any published accounts of companies ? Refer to the directors reports and Brexit rarely if ever gets a mention. Life has moved on , the important issues are world energy prices and the war in Ukraine. The government have little control over these matters . UK hauliers involved in continental haulage have actually benefitted from Brexit.

On a simplistic basis we still trade with all of the EU but have the added advantage the we can now negotiate our own free trade agreements with other countries.

It is difficult to see how on a long term basis Brexit could do any damage to the UK economy

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"I’ve reread my posts throughout this thread. Guess what? I’ve not shifted focus at all.

I thought you'd gone.

As I've also said several times, just pick another of the things that the Tories have done that has disadvantaged the populace. You can't be short of examples.

*sigh* I see now where you’ve misunderstood.

What you want and what is in your interests are not necessarily the same thing.

. How could Brexit work against the interests of the public? Do you ever read any published accounts of companies ? Refer to the directors reports and Brexit rarely if ever gets a mention. Life has moved on , the important issues are world energy prices and the war in Ukraine. The government have little control over these matters . UK hauliers involved in continental haulage have actually benefitted from Brexit.

On a simplistic basis we still trade with all of the EU but have the added advantage the we can now negotiate our own free trade agreements with other countries.

It is difficult to see how on a long term basis Brexit could do any damage to the UK economy "

How I *know* you’re trolling

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By *orses and PoniesMan
39 weeks ago

Ealing

"For the slow of thinking, I hope this clarifies the situation about the government deciding to enact ‘their’ Brexit:

The people voted to leave the EU - unarguable.

In *all three* of those examples the public’s vote would have been respected (that is to leave the EU).

- The difference is decisions made by the government, not by the public.

The government then put in process the mechanism to leave. However those who did not believe in democracy attempted to obstruct the process at every stage.

Luckily for those who believe in democracy Boris Johnson was elected with a massive majority and was able to put the wishes of the electorate into action .

This isn’t a debate about whether we voted to leave or not. We did, and we left. But the government decided the manner in which we would leave.

Given polling now, it seems that the majority of the public think the government did a bad job, but that’s not relevant. Just poignant."
.So do people now need to seek your permission as to whether they are allowed to comment on a bebate

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

No, I mean this place is full of people (you included, at times) who read what you want to read before deciding what you thought a post said, rather than what it said

You’ve already demonstrated once in this thread that you didn’t understand."

Lol.. If I remember the debate about socialism, you were the one who did that. When I asked multiple questions pointing out the flaws in your arguments, you never answered or engaged with those questions. We were repeatedly telling you that no country ever achieved ideological purity either with capitalism or socialism and hence that's not a base requirement to criticise them, you were repeatedly parroting the same line, "socialism is.... yada yada yada..." and lecturing us to read more when you proved that you didn't even know the difference between socialism and communism.

The same is happening in this thread. Multiple people attempting to explain that you are arguing about the wrong thing(which is what a strawman is).

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
39 weeks ago

golden fields

"I’ve reread my posts throughout this thread. Guess what? I’ve not shifted focus at all.

I thought you'd gone.

As I've also said several times, just pick another of the things that the Tories have done that has disadvantaged the populace. You can't be short of examples.

*sigh* I see now where you’ve misunderstood.

What you want and what is in your interests are not necessarily the same thing.

On a simplistic basis we still trade with all of the EU but have the added advantage the we can now negotiate our own free trade agreements with other countries.

It is difficult to see how on a long term basis Brexit could do any damage to the UK economy "

You're the only person who seems to get away with the brutal piss taking of Brexit voters.

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

Indeed your very first post in response to me was incorrect. At that point you handed over to others

Which part of it was incorrect?

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

"For the slow of thinking, I hope this clarifies the situation about the government deciding to enact ‘their’ Brexit:

The people voted to leave the EU - unarguable.

In *all three* of those examples the public’s vote would have been respected (that is to leave the EU).

- The difference is decisions made by the government, not by the public.

The government then put in process the mechanism to leave. However those who did not believe in democracy attempted to obstruct the process at every stage.

Luckily for those who believe in democracy Boris Johnson was elected with a massive majority and was able to put the wishes of the electorate into action .

This isn’t a debate about whether we voted to leave or not. We did, and we left. But the government decided the manner in which we would leave.

Given polling now, it seems that the majority of the public think the government did a bad job, but that’s not relevant. Just poignant..So do people now need to seek your permission as to whether they are allowed to comment on a bebate "

This isn’t a Brexit debate - this is a government debate. The exact nature of Brexit was a decision made by government, hence its inclusion.

If you want to persist in pretending that Brexit was a good idea (you’re one of 9-12%) then feel free to start a thread lauding its successes.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

Indeed your very first post in response to me was incorrect. At that point you handed over to others

Which part of it was incorrect?"

The bit where you attempted to deflect from government’s decision to leave the CU/SM by saying it was negotiated with the EU.

Theresa May told us we’d leave the CU/SM in her Lancaster house speech on 17th Jan 2017. Negotiations with the EU began in March 2017.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

No, I mean this place is full of people (you included, at times) who read what you want to read before deciding what you thought a post said, rather than what it said

You’ve already demonstrated once in this thread that you didn’t understand.

The same is happening in this thread. Multiple people attempting to explain that you are arguing about the wrong thing(which is what a strawman is)."

You had your arse handed to you on socialism (you demonstrated an immense lack of understanding there, and you weren’t alone). And you’ve so far been wrong here with your brief, inaccurate addition as well.

You’re consistent, at least.

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

Indeed your very first post in response to me was incorrect. At that point you handed over to others

Which part of it was incorrect?

The bit where you attempted to deflect from government’s decision to leave the CU/SM by saying it was negotiated with the EU.

Theresa May told us we’d leave the CU/SM in her Lancaster house speech on 17th Jan 2017. Negotiations with the EU began in March 2017."

You used the phrase "nature of Brexit" which I assumed was about the deal we reached eventually. When you clarified what you were talking about, I said in my next message that one main reasons for Brexit was to leave the EU regulatory framework and there was no way it was going to happen if we stayed in the market. So what's the problem here?

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

Indeed your very first post in response to me was incorrect. At that point you handed over to others

Which part of it was incorrect?

The bit where you attempted to deflect from government’s decision to leave the CU/SM by saying it was negotiated with the EU.

Theresa May told us we’d leave the CU/SM in her Lancaster house speech on 17th Jan 2017. Negotiations with the EU began in March 2017.

The problem is that our government - in possession of the impact assessments, chose a Brexit that they knew would impact the public negatively.

I thought I’d made that clear already

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

No, I mean this place is full of people (you included, at times) who read what you want to read before deciding what you thought a post said, rather than what it said

You’ve already demonstrated once in this thread that you didn’t understand.

The same is happening in this thread. Multiple people attempting to explain that you are arguing about the wrong thing(which is what a strawman is).

You’re consistent, at least. "

You didn't have an answer to a single question I or anyone else asked. The only replies you made were some vague definition of socialism, a thorough misunderstanding of Marxism and communism and an article which actually went against your own claims. Yeah my arse was handed to me.

But going by these posts, I have got to agree with you on one thing. Twitter is a better place for you

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

No, I mean this place is full of people (you included, at times) who read what you want to read before deciding what you thought a post said, rather than what it said

You’ve already demonstrated once in this thread that you didn’t understand.

The same is happening in this thread. Multiple people attempting to explain that you are arguing about the wrong thing(which is what a strawman is).

You’re consistent, at least.

But going by these posts, I have got to agree with you on one thing. Twitter is a better place for you

The article you didn’t read?

It’s ok dude, I’m done discussing this with you. You’ve been proven wrong. We’re good

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

No, I mean this place is full of people (you included, at times) who read what you want to read before deciding what you thought a post said, rather than what it said

You’ve already demonstrated once in this thread that you didn’t understand.

The same is happening in this thread. Multiple people attempting to explain that you are arguing about the wrong thing(which is what a strawman is).

You’re consistent, at least.

But going by these posts, I have got to agree with you on one thing. Twitter is a better place for you

The article you didn’t read?

It’s ok dude, I’m done discussing this with you. You’ve been proven wrong. We’re good

The article that said India and Sri Lanka were socialist countries while you were arguing with us that China wasn't one.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

This fucking place, man. Twitter has a better standard of debate. And that’s not a compliment to Twitter.

You mean this place isn't an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and likes your post and instead they are actually arguing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments? How dare they!

No, I mean this place is full of people (you included, at times) who read what you want to read before deciding what you thought a post said, rather than what it said

You’ve already demonstrated once in this thread that you didn’t understand.

The same is happening in this thread. Multiple people attempting to explain that you are arguing about the wrong thing(which is what a strawman is).

You’re consistent, at least.

But going by these posts, I have got to agree with you on one thing. Twitter is a better place for you

The article you didn’t read?

It’s ok dude, I’m done discussing this with you. You’ve been proven wrong. We’re good

The article that said India and Sri Lanka were socialist countries while you were arguing with us that China wasn't one."

Read it again, but slower and with a bit more attention

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

Anyhoo, am really tapping out now because this thread is way too diverted

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"*sigh* I see now where you’ve misunderstood.

What you want and what is in your interests are not necessarily the same thing."

Well that might be a valid point if we were 20 years down the road and it could be proved that Brexit has definitely made us all worse off. As it is we're only 4 years in and there's no telling what will happen in the next few years. You're already convinced that it will be a failure, but that doesn't make it true.

It might also be correct if the people voting for Brexit were doing so solely for economic reasons. However if they were more concerned about 'sovereignty' and 'freedom from EU rule', then the government has done the right thing for them.

Your problem is that you have no ability to understand that someone else might have a different view on things, and might place value on things you don't care about. That's why you think that Brexit is clearly a bad thing for us all, and the majority of people think differently.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

[Removed by poster at 18/02/24 22:23:01]

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

Nah. Am out. Not getting enticed back in by nonsense and easily disprovable statements. Have fun, y’all.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

So, back to strikes again. If the train drivers are appeased by a future Labour government, as seems likely, how many other unions will decide that their members have been hard done by, and will expect the new Labour government to help them out?

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By *Cocksucker84Man
39 weeks ago

glasgow

"So, back to strikes again. If the train drivers are appeased by a future Labour government, as seems likely, how many other unions will decide that their members have been hard done by, and will expect the new Labour government to help them out?"

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
39 weeks ago

Gilfach

"It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they?"

You're making inaccurate assumptions about my standpoint.

"But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions."

But we're in a position of having had a Tory government for a long time, and everybody is feeling financially pressed. If the train drivers get what they're asking for (which Labour can't really deny them), then won't lots of others feel that they also deserve more money?

How soon will labour be able to prove themselves fit for purpose and deliver a good standard of living that will make us all comfortable?

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By *Cocksucker84Man
39 weeks ago

glasgow

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they?

You're making inaccurate assumptions about my standpoint.

But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions.

How soon will labour be able to prove themselves fit for purpose and deliver a good standard of living that will make us all comfortable?"

They've got a hill to climb and we know that. But if they put their proposals in it's a step in the right direction

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By *enSiskoMan
39 weeks ago

Cestus 3

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country "

They will do no worst, but I think they will do no better.

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By *eroy1000Man
39 weeks ago

milton keynes

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country "

Many expect them to be no worse than the Tories and just have to hope they are right as its what lies in store for us all. I am not convinced that using the previous Labour government as an example is a good idea. This is not the same people or the same time and as they say past performance is no guarantee of future performance. If it was then some may bring up past Labour governments that weren't so successful.

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By *oubleswing2019Man
39 weeks ago

Colchester

"How soon will labour be able to prove themselves fit for purpose and deliver a good standard of living that will make us all comfortable?"

Define a "good standard of living", because it's all relative isn't it and highly subjective ?

Define "comfortable" ? Is there a singular, commonly accepted definition ?

I suppose a good start would be no-one should need to have to need a food bank for a start, perhaps ? But where to go from there I wonder ?

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By *orses and PoniesMan
39 weeks ago

Ealing

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. "
. On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver "

Not going to bite, simply because you’re uneducated on the topic, and I suspect you’d not listen to reason anyhoo.

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver "

Ideally we should move on to driverless trains as much as possible. But that requires a lottttt of investment.

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By *uddy laneMan
39 weeks ago

dudley

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver

Ideally we should move on to driverless trains as much as possible. But that requires a lottttt of investment."

Bolt a driverless tesla on the front.

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver

Ideally we should move on to driverless trains as much as possible. But that requires a lottttt of investment.

Bolt a driverless tesla on the front.

And they said innovation is dead in the UK

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By *aribbean King 1985Man
39 weeks ago

South West London

I don’t think you read that story correctly."
i heard Charlotte Nichols who came up with the idea speak about it and again I don't think it's a Labour policy as a whole but I won't be surprised if they did decide to do that

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver

Ideally we should move on to driverless trains as much as possible. But that requires a lottttt of investment."

And will still have a little chap or chapess sat at the front of it.

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By *obleroneToShareMan
39 weeks ago

North of Bristol

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver "

Does a reasonable rate of pay come with reasonable hours?

Will they get extra pay for working antisocial hours and weekends or is a flat rate included in the reasonable pay package?

With all due respect I don't think you've thought this one through.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

Mayhap truck drivers should unionise if they’re unhappy with their conditions and pay.

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver

Ideally we should move on to driverless trains as much as possible. But that requires a lottttt of investment.

And will still have a little chap or chapess sat at the front of it. "

Why? GoA4 trains are already running in many countries without drivers

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver

Ideally we should move on to driverless trains as much as possible. But that requires a lottttt of investment.

And will still have a little chap or chapess sat at the front of it.

Why? GoA4 trains are already running in many countries without drivers"

And GoA4 is designed for self-contained metro networks, not mainline rail. A very different beast, with very different challenges.

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver

Ideally we should move on to driverless trains as much as possible. But that requires a lottttt of investment.

And will still have a little chap or chapess sat at the front of it.

Why? GoA4 trains are already running in many countries without drivers

And GoA4 is designed for self-contained metro networks, not mainline rail. A very different beast, with very different challenges. "

We can always start with London/Edinburgh and expand it to other places. As I said, it needs a lottt of investment.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver

Ideally we should move on to driverless trains as much as possible. But that requires a lottttt of investment.

And will still have a little chap or chapess sat at the front of it.

Why? GoA4 trains are already running in many countries without drivers

And GoA4 is designed for self-contained metro networks, not mainline rail. A very different beast, with very different challenges.

We can always start with London/Edinburgh and expand it to other places. As I said, it needs a lottt of investment."

It’s not going to happen in the next 50 years *at least* - and as I said, there’ll still be staff on board. Mainline rail isn’t metro rail.

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

Not to mention the cost of an automated rail network would make HS2 look like change found down the back of the sofa. It’d be *considerably* cheaper to pay train drivers for the next half century or more than to implement an automated network.

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By *ostindreamsMan
39 weeks ago

London

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver

Ideally we should move on to driverless trains as much as possible. But that requires a lottttt of investment.

And will still have a little chap or chapess sat at the front of it.

Why? GoA4 trains are already running in many countries without drivers

And GoA4 is designed for self-contained metro networks, not mainline rail. A very different beast, with very different challenges.

We can always start with London/Edinburgh and expand it to other places. As I said, it needs a lottt of investment.

It’s not going to happen in the next 50 years *at least* - and as I said, there’ll still be staff on board. Mainline rail isn’t metro rail."

Denmark already has bidders to implement GoA4 trains for their S-Trains planned to be live by 2030. I don't know where you pulled that *at least* 50 years number from. Bet that place is dark.

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By *ottom charlieMan
39 weeks ago

washington

"The tories if they win the next election?

Everything is in a right old mess in this country "
it can get a lot worse,,, wait till they kick off all their old labour councillor buddies start all their new quango's to line their own pockets

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By (user no longer on site)
39 weeks ago

It's awful when working people expect to be paid appropriately for their labour. How dare they? But just to clarify, the numerous strikes we've had recently have been under the conservatives. We never had anything like this under the last labour government, even during the worldwide recession. When a government makes itself fit for purpose so people can afford to live, there's no need for strikes. I absolutely hope the labour government does work properly with unions. . On a simplistic basis one person's pay increase is another person's price increase . By modern standards train drivers are totally overpaid for what they do. Technology has moved on and we should be able to replace them with staff who will work for a more reasonable rate . Why should members of the public be expected to pay higher fares when to alloa train drivers to earn excessive paid. The pay of a train driver is circa twice that of a lorry driver

Ideally we should move on to driverless trains as much as possible. But that requires a lottttt of investment.

And will still have a little chap or chapess sat at the front of it.

Why? GoA4 trains are already running in many countries without drivers

And GoA4 is designed for self-contained metro networks, not mainline rail. A very different beast, with very different challenges.

We can always start with London/Edinburgh and expand it to other places. As I said, it needs a lottt of investment.

It’s not going to happen in the next 50 years *at least* - and as I said, there’ll still be staff on board. Mainline rail isn’t metro rail.

Denmark already has bidders to implement GoA4 trains for their S-Trains planned to be live by 2030. I don't know where you pulled that *at least* 50 years number from. Bet that place is dark."

Well, it comes from 21 years first hand knowledge of the U.K rail industry.

The new generation of intercity trains have been working here since 2017-2018. They’ve got an expected lifespan of around 40 years. They’re also not compatible with any driverless tech. So that’s gong to be later than 2050 or thereabouts before the next gen trains replace them.

Now assuming we had the cash and the willpower to commence a project of automation, we’d need to be starting the planning of it in the next few years (remember that HS2 began planning began in 2009 and that’s expected to open (fully) around 2033 - and we can expect that to slip further. So that 25 years for a project *much* smaller than full automation.

I reckon if we started planning to automate the rail network tomorrow, it *might* be running by 2080, given how these projects work in the UK.

And it would *still* have safety critical staff on board.