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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? "For clarity, is this a prediction or a fact? | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim?
For clarity, is this a prediction or a fact?"It's a prediction along with a would have 'guess'. | |||
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"I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie "C) Every single forecast we've see since Brexit has been wrong. | |||
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"Ireland is now officially in recession (though the economy seems ok at present) Think Germany is having it rough at the minute as are the Italians and Greeks. Not sure about the whole brexit thing as dint live in the UK. Worldwide I think every one is experiencing a cost of living crisis but asides from that can UK residents notice any difference in their standard of living due to brexit?" I'm not getting into a brexit argument online ever again. I voted remain, stand by my decision and think brexit was a mistake. But its done, we aren't going back and I hope that I will be proved wrong someday. Everyone is experiencing a cost of living increase but there are many factors. I'm sure brexit is one of those factors but I'm done picking things apart to work out all the mitigating things. One specific example to me is that i order a lot of clothes from a company in Germany. Good quality stuff and cheaper than UK. It used to be free delivery within the EU now its about £12. Not the end of the world. No replies please I'm done with brexit arguments especially as _astandfeisty is on the thread  | |||
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"I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie
C) Every single forecast we've see since Brexit has been wrong. "any forecaster worth their salt would have forecasted that almost all the forecasts would be wrong.  | |||
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" But its done, we aren't going back and I hope that I will be proved wrong someday. " Which, believe it or not is how I think. You do know I voted to remain don't you? | |||
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" But its done, we aren't going back and I hope that I will be proved wrong someday. Which, believe it or not is how I think. You do know I voted to remain don't you?" Really???? wouldn't have thought it. Just remember our last brexit "chat" when I had too many rums.  | |||
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"I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie
C) Every single forecast we've see since Brexit has been wrong. "Ha ha I forgot that one. Good call! | |||
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" But its done, we aren't going back and I hope that I will be proved wrong someday. Which, believe it or not is how I think. You do know I voted to remain don't you? Really???? wouldn't have thought it. Just remember our last brexit "chat" when I had too many rums. "Because I don't put every problem we have down to Brexit?
As fat as I'm concerned, I can't say my life had changed, yes my bills are now higher, but there's a lot if factors for that, I'm not gonna cry Brexit, and even if it was solely Brexit, I'm not the type of person to cry about it. Life is for living. | |||
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"And some more ‘cos I know you want it... The economists worked to isolate the “Brexit effect” from other factors such as Covid and the Ukraine war in its modelling. They found Britain will have 32 per cent lower investment, 16 per cent lower imports and 5 per cent lower exports by the middle of the next decade than without Brexit. The study also found that Brexit would further widen the productivity gap between the capital and the rest of the country. Shyamoli Patel, principal economist at Cambridge Econometrics, said: “Our study reveals that London’s economy would have grown faster if Brexit hadn’t taken place. “Looking ahead, we project that Brexit will continue to have an impact on the UK and London economies in the medium term.”" I have got to say these people doing this forecasting, predicting, guessing are rather good. They can without doubt tell us what would have happened if things hadn't changed through Brexit, can tell us what would have happened after Brexit if we hadn't been through a pandemic and a war, and the final trick it to tell us what is going to happen in the future after Brexit. I'm still waiting for flying cars and not having to work, have they got any updates on that? | |||
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"And some more ‘cos I know you want it... The economists worked to isolate the “Brexit effect” from other factors such as Covid and the Ukraine war in its modelling. They found Britain will have 32 per cent lower investment, 16 per cent lower imports and 5 per cent lower exports by the middle of the next decade than without Brexit. The study also found that Brexit would further widen the productivity gap between the capital and the rest of the country. Shyamoli Patel, principal economist at Cambridge Econometrics, said: “Our study reveals that London’s economy would have grown faster if Brexit hadn’t taken place. “Looking ahead, we project that Brexit will continue to have an impact on the UK and London economies in the medium term.” I have got to say these people doing this forecasting, predicting, guessing are rather good. They can without doubt tell us what would have happened if things hadn't changed through Brexit, can tell us what would have happened after Brexit if we hadn't been through a pandemic and a war, and the final trick it to tell us what is going to happen in the future after Brexit. I'm still waiting for flying cars and not having to work, have they got any updates on that? " Flying cars are on page 7 of annex 2 apparently. Nothing on not having to work though but footnote says it was edited by AI | |||
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"And some more ‘cos I know you want it... The economists worked to isolate the “Brexit effect” from other factors such as Covid and the Ukraine war in its modelling. They found Britain will have 32 per cent lower investment, 16 per cent lower imports and 5 per cent lower exports by the middle of the next decade than without Brexit. The study also found that Brexit would further widen the productivity gap between the capital and the rest of the country. Shyamoli Patel, principal economist at Cambridge Econometrics, said: “Our study reveals that London’s economy would have grown faster if Brexit hadn’t taken place. “Looking ahead, we project that Brexit will continue to have an impact on the UK and London economies in the medium term.” I have got to say these people doing this forecasting, predicting, guessing are rather good. They can without doubt tell us what would have happened if things hadn't changed through Brexit, can tell us what would have happened after Brexit if we hadn't been through a pandemic and a war, and the final trick it to tell us what is going to happen in the future after Brexit. I'm still waiting for flying cars and not having to work, have they got any updates on that? Flying cars are on page 7 of annex 2 apparently. Nothing on not having to work though but footnote says it was edited by AI " | |||
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" But its done, we aren't going back and I hope that I will be proved wrong someday. Which, believe it or not is how I think. You do know I voted to remain don't you? Really???? wouldn't have thought it. Just remember our last brexit "chat" when I had too many rums.
Because I don't put every problem we have down to Brexit?
As fat as I'm concerned, I can't say my life had changed, yes my bills are now higher, but there's a lot if factors for that, I'm not gonna cry Brexit, and even if it was solely Brexit, I'm not the type of person to cry about it. Life is for living. "I don't remember much but know I can be a prick when alcohol and pollotics are involved! New years resolution don't get dragged into political arguments. Last year I got 4 Facebook bans and smacked somebody in the mouth. Now I intend to be as laid back as a rug on valium | |||
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" But its done, we aren't going back and I hope that I will be proved wrong someday. Which, believe it or not is how I think. You do know I voted to remain don't you? Really???? wouldn't have thought it. Just remember our last brexit "chat" when I had too many rums.
Because I don't put every problem we have down to Brexit?
As fat as I'm concerned, I can't say my life had changed, yes my bills are now higher, but there's a lot if factors for that, I'm not gonna cry Brexit, and even if it was solely Brexit, I'm not the type of person to cry about it. Life is for living.
I don't remember much but know I can be a prick when alcohol and pollotics are involved! New years resolution don't get dragged into political arguments. Last year I got 4 Facebook bans and smacked somebody in the mouth. Now I intend to be as laid back as a rug on valium "I cried for weeks after our 'spat'
Just try not getting into debates after rum, if you're gonna debate, try vodka | |||
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"And some more ‘cos I know you want it... The economists worked to isolate the “Brexit effect” from other factors such as Covid and the Ukraine war in its modelling. They found Britain will have 32 per cent lower investment, 16 per cent lower imports and 5 per cent lower exports by the middle of the next decade than without Brexit. The study also found that Brexit would further widen the productivity gap between the capital and the rest of the country. Shyamoli Patel, principal economist at Cambridge Econometrics, said: “Our study reveals that London’s economy would have grown faster if Brexit hadn’t taken place. “Looking ahead, we project that Brexit will continue to have an impact on the UK and London economies in the medium term.”" Slow afternoon is it? What I find incredible about this kind of forecasting is that the UK economy seems to be doing slightly better than the eurozone economies. I mean we are talking here the minor difference between quite stagnant and very stagnant. But are we to believe that if the UK were still in the EU somehow the UK would be undergoing some kind of economic boom while the rest of the EU would still be seeing dismal economic performance? That’s just fantastical. The real outlier in terms of Western economic performance continues to be the US, which over decades has seen growth that far outstrips the EU or UK. Take a look at the relative sizes of the US and Eurozone economies since 2008. It’s not particularly surprising that the EU/UK are stagnant given the kind of high regulation, high tax, low productivity, big state, low skill immigration economic route that they have chosen to go down, nor is it surprising that the UK isn’t seeing even better growth given that it hasn’t really diverged much from the EU since 2019. If the report writers are so able to predict the future, one does wonder why they are not billionaires rather than sitting around suckling at Sadiq Khan’s teat for their bread. | |||
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"I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie
C) Every single forecast we've see since Brexit has been wrong. "D) Every benefit quoted by the leave campaign was a lie Add.. except when Boris said "Fuck business" he really meant that | |||
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"You only need to look at the empty shops in our city's and towns, pubs closing the door for the last time, the big names no longer trading, I don't need an economist to tell me things are shit I can see it with my own eyes. " This statement is true for the Republic of Ireland and were in the EU. | |||
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"You only need to look at the empty shops in our city's and towns, pubs closing the door for the last time, the big names no longer trading, I don't need an economist to tell me things are shit I can see it with my own eyes. " Sadly, these are more about social trends rather the the strength./weakness of the economy. People shop online and drink at home. We just have to adapt. | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim?
For clarity, is this a prediction or a fact?"Facts for 2035 are not available at this time. Please return to the forum in 2036 to receive the factual answer. | |||
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"It's funny how some people believe a study and not question how possibly true that is and the integrity of it. This is my own assessment on Brexit. Now I'm not gonna sugar coat and say its been great so far because it hasnt. The uncertainty and how it was handled in terms of our exit and deal without a clear plan how to execute them was dangerous if truth be told. But despite having a pandemic inbetween and hiccups along the way we cant say if Brexit been a good or bad thing for a couple of more years to get a proper assesssment but I will say it hasnt been as catastrophic as I was expecting it to be" We can't say for sure. Although we have a list as long as your arm of Brexit downsides. And as yet, there's no evidence so far to suggest that we're going to find any of the elusive positives. So we have a pretty good idea that Brexit isn't magically going to come good anytime soon. Unless of course Harry Potter gets voted in as next PM and waves his wand around. | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? ". A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose. Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets . For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations. Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK . Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come . In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained. Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies | |||
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"And some more ‘cos I know you want it... The economists worked to isolate the “Brexit effect” from other factors such as Covid and the Ukraine war in its modelling. They found Britain will have 32 per cent lower investment, 16 per cent lower imports and 5 per cent lower exports by the middle of the next decade than without Brexit. The study also found that Brexit would further widen the productivity gap between the capital and the rest of the country. Shyamoli Patel, principal economist at Cambridge Econometrics, said: “Our study reveals that London’s economy would have grown faster if Brexit hadn’t taken place. “Looking ahead, we project that Brexit will continue to have an impact on the UK and London economies in the medium term.” Slow afternoon is it? What I find incredible about this kind of forecasting is that the UK economy seems to be doing slightly better than the eurozone economies. I mean we are talking here the minor difference between quite stagnant and very stagnant. But are we to believe that if the UK were still in the EU somehow the UK would be undergoing some kind of economic boom while the rest of the EU would still be seeing dismal economic performance? That’s just fantastical. The real outlier in terms of Western economic performance continues to be the US, which over decades has seen growth that far outstrips the EU or UK. Take a look at the relative sizes of the US and Eurozone economies since 2008. It’s not particularly surprising that the EU/UK are stagnant given the kind of high regulation, high tax, low productivity, big state, low skill immigration economic route that they have chosen to go down, nor is it surprising that the UK isn’t seeing even better growth given that it hasn’t really diverged much from the EU since 2019. If the report writers are so able to predict the future, one does wonder why they are not billionaires rather than sitting around suckling at Sadiq Khan’s teat for their bread." Damn you Rog “suckling at Sadiq Khan’s teat” that is an image that will never leave me now! | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies "Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form. However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know | |||
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"It's funny how some people believe a study and not question how possibly true that is and the integrity of it. This is my own assessment on Brexit. Now I'm not gonna sugar coat and say its been great so far because it hasnt. The uncertainty and how it was handled in terms of our exit and deal without a clear plan how to execute them was dangerous if truth be told. But despite having a pandemic inbetween and hiccups along the way we cant say if Brexit been a good or bad thing for a couple of more years to get a proper assesssment but I will say it hasnt been as catastrophic as I was expecting it to be" I find it interesting that people are questioning the integrity of the data used, as if you read above, they have used the government’s own office of budget responsibility (OBR) data We can debate the methodology if you like…for example as you said how to take out the effects of the pandemic, but the actual data set itself would be solid I am not surprised that a London mayor would get something like this done.. as London economy wise (and the South East general) has more to lose EU wise… as most other areas were in effect net beneficiaries of EU money as, Scotland, Northern Ireland,Wales, north east and south west England were all grade 1 for eu regeneration money and north west England and Yorkshire were grade 2 | |||
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"It's funny how some people believe a study and not question how possibly true that is and the integrity of it. This is my own assessment on Brexit. Now I'm not gonna sugar coat and say its been great so far because it hasnt. The uncertainty and how it was handled in terms of our exit and deal without a clear plan how to execute them was dangerous if truth be told. But despite having a pandemic inbetween and hiccups along the way we cant say if Brexit been a good or bad thing for a couple of more years to get a proper assesssment but I will say it hasnt been as catastrophic as I was expecting it to be I find it interesting that people are questioning the integrity of the data used, as if you read above, they have used the government’s own office of budget responsibility (OBR) data We can debate the methodology if you like…for example as you said how to take out the effects of the pandemic, but the actual data set itself would be solid I am not surprised that a London mayor would get something like this done.. as London economy wise (and the South East general) has more to lose EU wise… as most other areas were in effect net beneficiaries of EU money as, Scotland, Northern Ireland,Wales, north east and south west England were all grade 1 for eu regeneration money and north west England and Yorkshire were grade 2" I’ve not seen anyone question the integrity of the data, I’ve seen very reasonable questions about predictions or guess work being presented as forecasts with meaning. | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know ". Hello .You already have all the facts and information. You have previously advised that you both purchase and read all the Daily national newspapers . My source and yours are the same. We simply appear to have come to different conclusions . Maybe our backgrounds are different. In 2016 I backed the winning team . I believe in democracy and happily accept that many peoples opinions are difference to mine. To access the validity of the differences I compare my opinions against that of the population in general. Four great prime ministers and every one had my unconditional support. David Cameron , a true family man , Teresa May a regular church attender and pilar of society , Boris Johnson whose success speaks for itself and Liz Truss who was destined to one of the greatest prime ministers of all time . The best is yet to come and it will not be Kier Starmer. Sue Braverman or Priti Patel have many years ahead of them. We might even have Liz Truss . What more could anyone want . ? We can sling the results of recent opinion polls in the bin. The only results that matter are those returned on the day of the election | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . Hello .You already have all the facts and information. You have previously advised that you both purchase and read all the Daily national newspapers . My source and yours are the same. We simply appear to have come to different conclusions . Maybe our backgrounds are different. In 2016 I backed the winning team . I believe in democracy and happily accept that many peoples opinions are difference to mine. To access the validity of the differences I compare my opinions against that of the population in general. Four great prime ministers and every one had my unconditional support. David Cameron , a true family man , Teresa May a regular church attender and pilar of society , Boris Johnson whose success speaks for itself and Liz Truss who was destined to one of the greatest prime ministers of all time .
The best is yet to come and it will not be Kier Starmer. Sue Braverman or Priti Patel have many years ahead of them. We might even have Liz Truss . What more could anyone want . ?
We can sling the results of recent opinion polls in the bin.
The only results that matter are those returned on the day of the election "Amazing. What's wrong with Sunak, why didn't he get your unconditional support? | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . Hello .You already have all the facts and information. You have previously advised that you both purchase and read all the Daily national newspapers . My source and yours are the same. We simply appear to have come to different conclusions . Maybe our backgrounds are different. In 2016 I backed the winning team . I believe in democracy and happily accept that many peoples opinions are difference to mine. To access the validity of the differences I compare my opinions against that of the population in general. Four great prime ministers and every one had my unconditional support. David Cameron , a true family man , Teresa May a regular church attender and pilar of society , Boris Johnson whose success speaks for itself and Liz Truss who was destined to one of the greatest prime ministers of all time .
The best is yet to come and it will not be Kier Starmer. Sue Braverman or Priti Patel have many years ahead of them. We might even have Liz Truss . What more could anyone want . ?
We can sling the results of recent opinion polls in the bin.
The only results that matter are those returned on the day of the election
Amazing.
What's wrong with Sunak, why didn't he get your unconditional support?"Beat me to it! Pat I haven’t come to any conclusions, other than saying “oh dear doesn’t sound good”. I simply pasted in some info from an article I had read. Have to confess I read less press now. It was necessary for a while for my work. So basically you can’t back up what you said with any data or facts? Normally I would trust your take and give you the benefit of the doubt but while you have been away the modus operandi has changed on here. If you cannot provide actual links to credible sources presenting data not opinion, then you get told you are liar these days. Sorry Pat that isn’t the approach I would like to take but seems to be expected here now. So show the evidence to support your claim please Pat old chap, otherwise be prepared for a deluge of certain posters calling you out...waiting, waiting??? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . Hello .You already have all the facts and information. You have previously advised that you both purchase and read all the Daily national newspapers . My source and yours are the same. We simply appear to have come to different conclusions . Maybe our backgrounds are different. In 2016 I backed the winning team . I believe in democracy and happily accept that many peoples opinions are difference to mine. To access the validity of the differences I compare my opinions against that of the population in general. Four great prime ministers and every one had my unconditional support. David Cameron , a true family man , Teresa May a regular church attender and pilar of society , Boris Johnson whose success speaks for itself and Liz Truss who was destined to one of the greatest prime ministers of all time .
The best is yet to come and it will not be Kier Starmer. Sue Braverman or Priti Patel have many years ahead of them. We might even have Liz Truss . What more could anyone want . ?
We can sling the results of recent opinion polls in the bin.
The only results that matter are those returned on the day of the election
Amazing.
What's wrong with Sunak, why didn't he get your unconditional support?
Beat me to it!
Pat I haven’t come to any conclusions, other than saying “oh dear doesn’t sound good”. I simply pasted in some info from an article I had read.
Have to confess I read less press now. It was necessary for a while for my work.
So basically you can’t back up what you said with any data or facts? Normally I would trust your take and give you the benefit of the doubt but while you have been away the modus operandi has changed on here. If you cannot provide actual links to credible sources presenting data not opinion, then you get told you are liar these days.
Sorry Pat that isn’t the approach I would like to take but seems to be expected here now. So show the evidence to support your claim please Pat old chap, otherwise be prepared for a deluge of certain posters calling you out...waiting, waiting???". The key thing is what the electorate think and vote for , not what a few posters on here would like . Most data is readily available for any poster to read , they can simply look it up themselves. Obtaining your data first hand is far safer than relying on on sources which other people direct you to in order to prove a point. I am unable to change the election results. It would appear that a significant proportion of the country agree with my opinion. David Cameron , Teresa May , Boris Johnson and Lizz Truss are all great success stories . The opinions and vote of the electorate are far more important than a few carefully selected facts that any poster attempts to select to justify an opinion . | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Sorry Pat that isn’t the approach I would like to take but seems to be expected here now." So why don't you lead by example and not take that approach? Claiming to dislike something, but then using it when it suits you, rather undermines your argument. "So show the evidence to support your claim please Pat old chap, otherwise be prepared for a deluge of certain posters calling you out...waiting, waiting???" I don't see any claims that need supporting. The only solid claim I can pull out of HandP's post is "Trade with the EU has increased , not declined", and any business statistics site will tell you that it's true. What claims do you see that you think need proving? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Sorry Pat that isn’t the approach I would like to take but seems to be expected here now. So why don't you lead by example and not take that approach? Claiming to dislike something, but then using it when it suits you, rather undermines your argument. So show the evidence to support your claim please Pat old chap, otherwise be prepared for a deluge of certain posters calling you out...waiting, waiting??? I don't see any claims that need supporting. The only solid claim I can pull out of HandP's post is "Trade with the EU has increased , not declined", and any business statistics site will tell you that it's true. What claims do you see that you think need proving?" Oh dear MrD you totally misses the deliberate ironic humour! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . Hello .You already have all the facts and information. You have previously advised that you both purchase and read all the Daily national newspapers . My source and yours are the same. We simply appear to have come to different conclusions . Maybe our backgrounds are different. In 2016 I backed the winning team . I believe in democracy and happily accept that many peoples opinions are difference to mine. To access the validity of the differences I compare my opinions against that of the population in general. Four great prime ministers and every one had my unconditional support. David Cameron , a true family man , Teresa May a regular church attender and pilar of society , Boris Johnson whose success speaks for itself and Liz Truss who was destined to one of the greatest prime ministers of all time .
The best is yet to come and it will not be Kier Starmer. Sue Braverman or Priti Patel have many years ahead of them. We might even have Liz Truss . What more could anyone want . ?
We can sling the results of recent opinion polls in the bin.
The only results that matter are those returned on the day of the election "Was there another…. Ahem… party at Conservative Party headquarters we don’t know about? Or that’s a whole load of kool aid you have been drinking! lol (No one point pat to the LBC website and YouTube pages…. They mentioned the word… whispers…. Landslide…. The other day and not in a good way!) Or maybe pat is making a good case right now for why should be legalised….happy pat is funny pat!!!
As long as he is not getting his comedic material from Jim Davison or Lee hurst.. I don’t care! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . Hello .You already have all the facts and information. You have previously advised that you both purchase and read all the Daily national newspapers . My source and yours are the same. We simply appear to have come to different conclusions . Maybe our backgrounds are different. In 2016 I backed the winning team . I believe in democracy and happily accept that many peoples opinions are difference to mine. To access the validity of the differences I compare my opinions against that of the population in general. Four great prime ministers and every one had my unconditional support. David Cameron , a true family man , Teresa May a regular church attender and pilar of society , Boris Johnson whose success speaks for itself and Liz Truss who was destined to one of the greatest prime ministers of all time .
The best is yet to come and it will not be Kier Starmer. Sue Braverman or Priti Patel have many years ahead of them. We might even have Liz Truss . What more could anyone want . ?
We can sling the results of recent opinion polls in the bin.
The only results that matter are those returned on the day of the election
Amazing.
What's wrong with Sunak, why didn't he get your unconditional support?
Beat me to it!
Pat I haven’t come to any conclusions, other than saying “oh dear doesn’t sound good”. I simply pasted in some info from an article I had read.
Have to confess I read less press now. It was necessary for a while for my work.
So basically you can’t back up what you said with any data or facts? Normally I would trust your take and give you the benefit of the doubt but while you have been away the modus operandi has changed on here. If you cannot provide actual links to credible sources presenting data not opinion, then you get told you are liar these days.
Sorry Pat that isn’t the approach I would like to take but seems to be expected here now. So show the evidence to support your claim please Pat old chap, otherwise be prepared for a deluge of certain posters calling you out...waiting, waiting???. The key thing is what the electorate think and vote for , not what a few posters on here would like . Most data is readily available for any poster to read , they can simply look it up themselves. Obtaining your data first hand is far safer than relying on on sources which other people direct you to in order to prove a point.
I am unable to change the election results. It would appear that a significant proportion of the country agree with my opinion.
David Cameron , Teresa May , Boris Johnson and Lizz Truss are all great success stories .
The opinions and vote of the electorate are far more important than a few carefully selected facts that any poster attempts to select to justify an opinion . "What's wrong with Sunak, why didn't he get your unconditional support as did the other Tory PMs of the current reign? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Sorry Pat that isn’t the approach I would like to take but seems to be expected here now. So why don't you lead by example and not take that approach? Claiming to dislike something, but then using it when it suits you, rather undermines your argument. So show the evidence to support your claim please Pat old chap, otherwise be prepared for a deluge of certain posters calling you out...waiting, waiting??? I don't see any claims that need supporting. The only solid claim I can pull out of HandP's post is "Trade with the EU has increased , not declined", and any business statistics site will tell you that it's true. What claims do you see that you think need proving?" That is not the case with European tourism visitors to UK. Five fold increase in visa refusals is reported and many EU companies that had contractors working here no longer are. Anecdotally I agree this to be true as we no longer see the short and medium stay eu holiday visitors in holiday stays. Plenty of industry evidence to confirm this also Good to see that otherwise brexit is an overwhelming success | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know ". The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit . Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit. Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people . If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong . Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy . We still import and export from the EU as per normal . The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now . | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
"In the words of another infamous poster... “So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry” We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point. We also can’t believe Govt data any more. We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda. So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!) Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
 | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
"Is the “sherry” strong in you today pat?……… | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls "out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? "..Are you able to advise what exchange rates you are using in your calculations ? Can you break it down by year ? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? ". Is your post not a bit misleading.? It was commissioned by the mayor and only refers to London . I have already wasted two minutes of my life looking up the source data | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls
out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them"I didn’t because plenty others already were. So my approach here is threefold: 1. Even things out. 2. Highlight hypocrisy (which of course works both ways). 3. Have a tongue in cheek laugh with my mate Pat who has been exchanging messages with me on these forums for years (since before you were a regular here). Pat gets the humour even if others take it all a bit too seriously! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . Is your post not a bit misleading.? It was commissioned by the mayor and only refers to London . I have already wasted two minutes of my life looking up the source data "It would really only refer to London as London and the South east, yes they paid per head paid most into the EU budget, they also had the most financially to lose for example via the financial sector…… Because other parts of the country were considered “poor” in EU terms, that’s why there were overall EU net beneficiaries and got in better terms EU regeneration money as investment for example into infrastructure projects.. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? ..Are you able to advise what exchange rates you are using in your calculations ? Can you break it down by year ? "Beats me ask Cambridge Econometrics as they did the research. I am just sharing an article to stimulate a discussion. I do wish people would not conflate message with messenger all the time  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . Is your post not a bit misleading.? It was commissioned by the mayor and only refers to London . I have already wasted two minutes of my life looking up the source data "Nope. My post is verbatim of a newspaper article. Nothing misleading. A study produced conclusions for the UK and then also focused in on London. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls
out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them
I didn’t because plenty others already were. So my approach here is threefold:
1. Even things out.
2. Highlight hypocrisy (which of course works both ways).
3. Have a tongue in cheek laugh with my mate Pat who has been exchanging messages with me on these forums for years (since before you were a regular here). Pat gets the humour even if others take it all a bit too seriously!"So must be a total coincidence then I guess | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls
out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them
I didn’t because plenty others already were. So my approach here is threefold:
1. Even things out.
2. Highlight hypocrisy (which of course works both ways).
3. Have a tongue in cheek laugh with my mate Pat who has been exchanging messages with me on these forums for years (since before you were a regular here). Pat gets the humour even if others take it all a bit too seriously!
So must be a total coincidence then I guess"Not remotely a coincidence! I thought that was obvious? It was a conscious and deliberate decision. If certain posters are demanding such things of people from one side of the political spectrum, then only fair someone/people do the same for the other side. Just trying to make things fair
Not sure why that is an issue? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls
out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them
I didn’t because plenty others already were. So my approach here is threefold:
1. Even things out.
2. Highlight hypocrisy (which of course works both ways).
3. Have a tongue in cheek laugh with my mate Pat who has been exchanging messages with me on these forums for years (since before you were a regular here). Pat gets the humour even if others take it all a bit too seriously!
So must be a total coincidence then I guess
Not remotely a coincidence! I thought that was obvious? It was a conscious and deliberate decision. If certain posters are demanding such things of people from one side of the political spectrum, then only fair someone/people do the same for the other side. Just trying to make things fair
Not sure why that is an issue?"It's not an issue at all, more my curiosity. Only thing is, I'm sure I have seen people with various positions or both sides if you prefer, asking for links and proof. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls
out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them
I didn’t because plenty others already were. So my approach here is threefold:
1. Even things out.
2. Highlight hypocrisy (which of course works both ways).
3. Have a tongue in cheek laugh with my mate Pat who has been exchanging messages with me on these forums for years (since before you were a regular here). Pat gets the humour even if others take it all a bit too seriously!
So must be a total coincidence then I guess
Not remotely a coincidence! I thought that was obvious? It was a conscious and deliberate decision. If certain posters are demanding such things of people from one side of the political spectrum, then only fair someone/people do the same for the other side. Just trying to make things fair
Not sure why that is an issue?
It's not an issue at all, more my curiosity. Only thing is, I'm sure I have seen people with various positions or both sides if you prefer, asking for links and proof. "Great glad we agree I can ask what I want. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If certain posters are demanding such things of people from one side of the political spectrum, then only fair someone/people do the same for the other side. Just trying to make things fair" Earlier on you claimed it was "deliberate ironic humour". Or am I 'misunderstanding' again? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls
out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them
I didn’t because plenty others already were. So my approach here is threefold:
1. Even things out.
2. Highlight hypocrisy (which of course works both ways).
3. Have a tongue in cheek laugh with my mate Pat who has been exchanging messages with me on these forums for years (since before you were a regular here). Pat gets the humour even if others take it all a bit too seriously!
So must be a total coincidence then I guess
Not remotely a coincidence! I thought that was obvious? It was a conscious and deliberate decision. If certain posters are demanding such things of people from one side of the political spectrum, then only fair someone/people do the same for the other side. Just trying to make things fair
Not sure why that is an issue?
It's not an issue at all, more my curiosity. Only thing is, I'm sure I have seen people with various positions or both sides if you prefer, asking for links and proof.
Great glad we agree I can ask what I want. "When exactly have these economists been right? Not had to completely revise their predictions? I prefer to take the positive view that can easily be found if you care to look for it. You can either be a glass half empty or a glass half full person | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls
out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them
I didn’t because plenty others already were. So my approach here is threefold:
1. Even things out.
2. Highlight hypocrisy (which of course works both ways).
3. Have a tongue in cheek laugh with my mate Pat who has been exchanging messages with me on these forums for years (since before you were a regular here). Pat gets the humour even if others take it all a bit too seriously!
So must be a total coincidence then I guess
Not remotely a coincidence! I thought that was obvious? It was a conscious and deliberate decision. If certain posters are demanding such things of people from one side of the political spectrum, then only fair someone/people do the same for the other side. Just trying to make things fair
Not sure why that is an issue?
It's not an issue at all, more my curiosity. Only thing is, I'm sure I have seen people with various positions or both sides if you prefer, asking for links and proof.
Great glad we agree I can ask what I want.
When exactly have these economists been right? Not had to completely revise their predictions? I prefer to take the positive view that can easily be found if you care to look for it. You can either be a glass half empty or a glass half full person "Em nothing to do with being a half empty person. Britain gave up trade contracts that were lucrative and not bound by the limitations of the European traders. All we have managed to negotiate is some worthless lamb contract in Australia. Incidentally we also lost our inclusion in the European anti cyber crime network. Brexit: a devastating catastrophe. | |||
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"If certain posters are demanding such things of people from one side of the political spectrum, then only fair someone/people do the same for the other side. Just trying to make things fair Earlier on you claimed it was "deliberate ironic humour". Or am I 'misunderstanding' again?" Sounds ironic to me | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls
out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them
I didn’t because plenty others already were. So my approach here is threefold:
1. Even things out.
2. Highlight hypocrisy (which of course works both ways).
3. Have a tongue in cheek laugh with my mate Pat who has been exchanging messages with me on these forums for years (since before you were a regular here). Pat gets the humour even if others take it all a bit too seriously!
So must be a total coincidence then I guess
Not remotely a coincidence! I thought that was obvious? It was a conscious and deliberate decision. If certain posters are demanding such things of people from one side of the political spectrum, then only fair someone/people do the same for the other side. Just trying to make things fair
Not sure why that is an issue?
It's not an issue at all, more my curiosity. Only thing is, I'm sure I have seen people with various positions or both sides if you prefer, asking for links and proof.
Great glad we agree I can ask what I want.
When exactly have these economists been right? Not had to completely revise their predictions? I prefer to take the positive view that can easily be found if you care to look for it. You can either be a glass half empty or a glass half full person "What about a realistic view? | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls
out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them
I didn’t because plenty others already were. So my approach here is threefold:
1. Even things out.
2. Highlight hypocrisy (which of course works both ways).
3. Have a tongue in cheek laugh with my mate Pat who has been exchanging messages with me on these forums for years (since before you were a regular here). Pat gets the humour even if others take it all a bit too seriously!
So must be a total coincidence then I guess
Not remotely a coincidence! I thought that was obvious? It was a conscious and deliberate decision. If certain posters are demanding such things of people from one side of the political spectrum, then only fair someone/people do the same for the other side. Just trying to make things fair
Not sure why that is an issue?
It's not an issue at all, more my curiosity. Only thing is, I'm sure I have seen people with various positions or both sides if you prefer, asking for links and proof.
Great glad we agree I can ask what I want. "Absolutely, and others are free to comment on it | |||
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"Ah yes the famous Sadiqland utopia where the uk outgrew France germany and Italy from 2016 by 8% if more on gdp. When the uk usually lagged both fence and germany for the entire 25 odd years of e.u membership " You’ve been missed Morley welcome back. The single typo tells me you may finally have got a new phone or got your phone fixed...yay! | |||
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"The single typo tells me you may finally have got a new phone or got your phone fixed...yay!" You need to get some new reading glasses if you just think there's a single error. | |||
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"The single typo tells me you may finally have got a new phone or got your phone fixed...yay! You need to get some new reading glasses if you just think there's a single error." Who are “fence”? Surely he means “France”? Typo in my book. Better call specsavers MrD! | |||
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"The single typo tells me you may finally have got a new phone or got your phone fixed...yay! You need to get some new reading glasses if you just think there's a single error. Who are “fence”? Surely he means “France”? Typo in my book. Better call specsavers MrD!" Oh you mean there was more. Ooops my bad yes there are! | |||
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"Ah yes the famous Sadiqland utopia where the uk outgrew France germany and Italy from 2016 by 8% if more on gdp. When the uk usually lagged both fence and germany for the entire 25 odd years of e.u membership " Does that mean the data used is wrong or the methodology is wrong? Personally I fail to see how anyone can predict so far in advance as they have no idea what will happen, like wars starting or hopefully stopping, pandemics, trade deals etc. Wasn't it one of these bodies that said in late 2022 that 2023 would see the UK in the deepest recession for ages. | |||
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"Ah yes the famous Sadiqland utopia where the uk outgrew France germany and Italy from 2016 by 8% if more on gdp. When the uk usually lagged both fence and germany for the entire 25 odd years of e.u membership Does that mean the data used is wrong or the methodology is wrong? Personally I fail to see how anyone can predict so far in advance as they have no idea what will happen, like wars starting or hopefully stopping, pandemics, trade deals etc. Wasn't it one of these bodies that said in late 2022 that 2023 would see the UK in the deepest recession for ages." All large corporations and projects forecast as do Govts. All forecasts have to account for variables and risks. The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). However, within certain parameters, nothing is certain otherwise that would be accurately predicting the future (and the person who can do that would be the richest person in history). Going further down the rabbit hole, there is also the trap of prescience, ie predicting a future could cause you to act a certain way to bring about that outcome or to avoid it. The very act of changing the actions you would have done could then impact on the future in such a way as to put the future in a state of flux with unpredictable outcomes! A head fuck in other words. Need tea now | |||
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"Ah yes the famous Sadiqland utopia where the uk outgrew France germany and Italy from 2016 by 8% if more on gdp. When the uk usually lagged both fence and germany for the entire 25 odd years of e.u membership Does that mean the data used is wrong or the methodology is wrong? Personally I fail to see how anyone can predict so far in advance as they have no idea what will happen, like wars starting or hopefully stopping, pandemics, trade deals etc. Wasn't it one of these bodies that said in late 2022 that 2023 would see the UK in the deepest recession for ages. All large corporations and projects forecast as do Govts. All forecasts have to account for variables and risks. The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). However, within certain parameters, nothing is certain otherwise that would be accurately predicting the future (and the person who can do that would be the richest person in history). Going further down the rabbit hole, there is also the trap of prescience, ie predicting a future could cause you to act a certain way to bring about that outcome or to avoid it. The very act of changing the actions you would have done could then impact on the future in such a way as to put the future in a state of flux with unpredictable outcomes! A head fuck in other words. Need tea now "Well the data used was the government’s own.. the official OBR figures The methodology I think would be really interesting… but that’s the statistical degree part of me. | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues)." And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones? | |||
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"Ah yes the famous Sadiqland utopia where the uk outgrew France germany and Italy from 2016 by 8% if more on gdp. When the uk usually lagged both fence and germany for the entire 25 odd years of e.u membership Does that mean the data used is wrong or the methodology is wrong? Personally I fail to see how anyone can predict so far in advance as they have no idea what will happen, like wars starting or hopefully stopping, pandemics, trade deals etc. Wasn't it one of these bodies that said in late 2022 that 2023 would see the UK in the deepest recession for ages. All large corporations and projects forecast as do Govts. All forecasts have to account for variables and risks. The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). However, within certain parameters, nothing is certain otherwise that would be accurately predicting the future (and the person who can do that would be the richest person in history). Going further down the rabbit hole, there is also the trap of prescience, ie predicting a future could cause you to act a certain way to bring about that outcome or to avoid it. The very act of changing the actions you would have done could then impact on the future in such a way as to put the future in a state of flux with unpredictable outcomes! A head fuck in other words. Need tea now "Anticipating market trends gives corps a chance to be ahead of the pack and I can see why that can be good to forecast, mainly because they can target their audience specifically on their thoughts, circumstances and appetite. How does Sadiq Khan plan to use this data he has commissioned? He can't target as a corp can for starters, and disruptive influences are so far reaching that gnat farting in China could screw up the results. If he wants to throw a few ££££££'s this way I can give him an alternative view that would be just as credible at predicting the future in 5 years hence. | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones?" You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right? I don’t have to accept anything. I posted a partisan article and threw down the gauntlet for a discussion. Sometimes people are odd on here? | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues)." "And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones?" "You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right?" I do know that's possible. I also know that your first post included the article, and your second post lambasted all those that disagreed with it. Your posts in this thread certainly don't give the impression of neutrality. So I'll ask my question again. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not a good one? | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones? You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right? I do know that's possible. I also know that your first post included the article, and your second post lambasted all those that disagreed with it. Your posts in this thread certainly don't give the impression of neutrality. So I'll ask my question again. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not a good one?" By second post you mean: " I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie" Correct? I do not think anyone has established whether the research/forecast is good or bad. I certainly have not seen the data or the methodology (I just quoted some of the article) and I haven’t seen anyone post here that has either (unless I missed it?) So we are no further forward beyond people posting opinions on the validity of forecasting per se. Is anyone able to deconstruct the research methodology and outcome data and demonstrate why that is wrong using another source of data with a better methodology? If not we are back to these posts simply being opinion. | |||
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"Ah yes the famous Sadiqland utopia where the uk outgrew France germany and Italy from 2016 by 8% if more on gdp. When the uk usually lagged both fence and germany for the entire 25 odd years of e.u membership Does that mean the data used is wrong or the methodology is wrong? Personally I fail to see how anyone can predict so far in advance as they have no idea what will happen, like wars starting or hopefully stopping, pandemics, trade deals etc. Wasn't it one of these bodies that said in late 2022 that 2023 would see the UK in the deepest recession for ages. All large corporations and projects forecast as do Govts. All forecasts have to account for variables and risks. The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). However, within certain parameters, nothing is certain otherwise that would be accurately predicting the future (and the person who can do that would be the richest person in history). Going further down the rabbit hole, there is also the trap of prescience, ie predicting a future could cause you to act a certain way to bring about that outcome or to avoid it. The very act of changing the actions you would have done could then impact on the future in such a way as to put the future in a state of flux with unpredictable outcomes! A head fuck in other words. Need tea now
Well the data used was the government’s own.. the official OBR figures
The methodology I think would be really interesting… but that’s the statistical degree part of me."No it wasn't. The data used for sadiq was from the ONS. The obr simply limits government spending and predicts tax receipts and future growth for government spending sadiqs forecast was not by the obr. It took ons data. There are no such thing as official obr actualized figures. The ons is the actualized figures. | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones? You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right? I do know that's possible. I also know that your first post included the article, and your second post lambasted all those that disagreed with it. Your posts in this thread certainly don't give the impression of neutrality. So I'll ask my question again. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not a good one? By second post you mean: I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie Correct? I do not think anyone has established whether the research/forecast is good or bad. I certainly have not seen the data or the methodology (I just quoted some of the article) and I haven’t seen anyone post here that has either (unless I missed it?) So we are no further forward beyond people posting opinions on the validity of forecasting per se. Is anyone able to deconstruct the research methodology and outcome data and demonstrate why that is wrong using another source of data with a better methodology? If not we are back to these posts simply being opinion." May I ask. If you beleive it isn't incorrect why you beleive in the 7 years after brexit vote the uk would have outgrown France by 8% gdp. Something it never once came close to inside tbe e.u infact over any 7 year period I dont think the uk outgrew France by 1% whybwould this have changed from 2016? Similar woth Germany. What would the uk have done differently that meant 25 years of history suddenly went down the drain and gdp growth accelerated at a pace never before seen by the uk inside the e.um | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones? You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right? I do know that's possible. I also know that your first post included the article, and your second post lambasted all those that disagreed with it. Your posts in this thread certainly don't give the impression of neutrality. So I'll ask my question again. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not a good one? By second post you mean: I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie Correct? I do not think anyone has established whether the research/forecast is good or bad. I certainly have not seen the data or the methodology (I just quoted some of the article) and I haven’t seen anyone post here that has either (unless I missed it?) So we are no further forward beyond people posting opinions on the validity of forecasting per se. Is anyone able to deconstruct the research methodology and outcome data and demonstrate why that is wrong using another source of data with a better methodology? If not we are back to these posts simply being opinion. May I ask. If you beleive it isn't incorrect why you beleive in the 7 years after brexit vote the uk would have outgrown France by 8% gdp. Something it never once came close to inside tbe e.u infact over any 7 year period I dont think the uk outgrew France by 1% whybwould this have changed from 2016? Similar woth Germany. What would the uk have done differently that meant 25 years of history suddenly went down the drain and gdp growth accelerated at a pace never before seen by the uk inside the e.um" I haven’t said whether the forecast is correct or incorrect. One thing most posters have agreed is forecasting cannot be accurate due to variables. However, the points you make need supporting evidence from reputable sources please. Not saying they are not correct but can you provide back up please? | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones? You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right? I do know that's possible. I also know that your first post included the article, and your second post lambasted all those that disagreed with it. Your posts in this thread certainly don't give the impression of neutrality. So I'll ask my question again. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not a good one? By second post you mean: I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie Correct? I do not think anyone has established whether the research/forecast is good or bad. I certainly have not seen the data or the methodology (I just quoted some of the article) and I haven’t seen anyone post here that has either (unless I missed it?) So we are no further forward beyond people posting opinions on the validity of forecasting per se. Is anyone able to deconstruct the research methodology and outcome data and demonstrate why that is wrong using another source of data with a better methodology? If not we are back to these posts simply being opinion. May I ask. If you beleive it isn't incorrect why you beleive in the 7 years after brexit vote the uk would have outgrown France by 8% gdp. Something it never once came close to inside tbe e.u infact over any 7 year period I dont think the uk outgrew France by 1% whybwould this have changed from 2016? Similar woth Germany. What would the uk have done differently that meant 25 years of history suddenly went down the drain and gdp growth accelerated at a pace never before seen by the uk inside the e.um I haven’t said whether the forecast is correct or incorrect. One thing most posters have agreed is forecasting cannot be accurate due to variables. However, the points you make need supporting evidence from reputable sources please. Not saying they are not correct but can you provide back up please?" Literally just go on Google and check the trends of gdp.growth over any 7byesr period. Or data.worldbank | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones? You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right? I do know that's possible. I also know that your first post included the article, and your second post lambasted all those that disagreed with it. Your posts in this thread certainly don't give the impression of neutrality. So I'll ask my question again. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not a good one? By second post you mean: I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie Correct? I do not think anyone has established whether the research/forecast is good or bad. I certainly have not seen the data or the methodology (I just quoted some of the article) and I haven’t seen anyone post here that has either (unless I missed it?) So we are no further forward beyond people posting opinions on the validity of forecasting per se. Is anyone able to deconstruct the research methodology and outcome data and demonstrate why that is wrong using another source of data with a better methodology? If not we are back to these posts simply being opinion. May I ask. If you beleive it isn't incorrect why you beleive in the 7 years after brexit vote the uk would have outgrown France by 8% gdp. Something it never once came close to inside tbe e.u infact over any 7 year period I dont think the uk outgrew France by 1% whybwould this have changed from 2016? Similar woth Germany. What would the uk have done differently that meant 25 years of history suddenly went down the drain and gdp growth accelerated at a pace never before seen by the uk inside the e.um I haven’t said whether the forecast is correct or incorrect. One thing most posters have agreed is forecasting cannot be accurate due to variables. However, the points you make need supporting evidence from reputable sources please. Not saying they are not correct but can you provide back up please? Literally just go on Google and check the trends of gdp.growth over any 7byesr period. Or data.worldbank" Sorry Morley but when anyone says that to you your response is invariably along the lines of “telling me to Google doesn’t cut it” or “so you don’t know/can’t answer”. So please provide evidence to back up your claim. As I said, I am not saying it is not true, but we need you to prove your points. Only fair after all! Thanks. | |||
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"Ireland is now officially in recession (though the economy seems ok at present) Think Germany is having it rough at the minute as are the Italians and Greeks. Not sure about the whole brexit thing as dint live in the UK. Worldwide I think every one is experiencing a cost of living crisis but asides from that can UK residents notice any difference in their standard of living due to brexit?" Standards of living are dropping due to years of venture capitalism and government that created policies to stimulate that... | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones? You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right? I do know that's possible. I also know that your first post included the article, and your second post lambasted all those that disagreed with it. Your posts in this thread certainly don't give the impression of neutrality. So I'll ask my question again. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not a good one? By second post you mean: I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie Correct? I do not think anyone has established whether the research/forecast is good or bad. I certainly have not seen the data or the methodology (I just quoted some of the article) and I haven’t seen anyone post here that has either (unless I missed it?) So we are no further forward beyond people posting opinions on the validity of forecasting per se. Is anyone able to deconstruct the research methodology and outcome data and demonstrate why that is wrong using another source of data with a better methodology? If not we are back to these posts simply being opinion. May I ask. If you beleive it isn't incorrect why you beleive in the 7 years after brexit vote the uk would have outgrown France by 8% gdp. Something it never once came close to inside tbe e.u infact over any 7 year period I dont think the uk outgrew France by 1% whybwould this have changed from 2016? Similar woth Germany. What would the uk have done differently that meant 25 years of history suddenly went down the drain and gdp growth accelerated at a pace never before seen by the uk inside the e.um" o thought this was a really good point as I had in my head we tracked and continue to track. So went out to prove you right. Yr Germany. Uk. France 2010 3,402.44 2,493.8 2,647.35 2016 3,468.9 2,709.68 2,472.28 Germany flat. Uk plus 8pc. France went backwards. This is gdp not gva. It's probably the trends OBR were using when doing 2016 forecasts. And so has driven the results in the methodology. Which use 16 one for the counterfactual. | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . A trully bizarre figure. Why would anyone care .? It is only a forecast. What matters is actual results in real life , not cherry picking one report just because it supports your purpose.
Aa far as I am aware the impact of Brexit on most businneses is irrelevant , they have simply continued to trade as normal . Trade with the EU has increased , not declined and we have opened up many long term markets .
For hauliers involved in the International movement of goods Brexit is irrelevant. Their concerns are vehicle running costs, Brexit does not even enter the equation. Anyone running a businness could not care about Brexit , you simply adapt to the new rules and regulations.
Removal of freedom of movement has forced some companies to pay low paid works more and investigate automation. . Freedom of movement has partly contributed to the housing crisis in the UK .
Our changed circumstances will see many significant benefits in years to come .
In any event the UK was a net contributor to the the EU. It is difficult to see what we gained.
Most directors reports do not even mention Brexit these days . Brexit is totally irrelevant to the performance of most companies
Pat you have been slow to post lately so good to see you on form.
However, just as other posters will often do on here...do you have links, sources, and evidence to back up your points? Otherwise they are just words. You have to provide evidence! We need to see the memo! The primary data! Otherwise it is all just lies
Those who know will know . The primary data is there for all to see . There are 350 companies in the FTSE 350. Just download the directors reports and start reading them yourself . Most reports also attempt to identify future risks. I do not see many if any mentioning brexit .
Jump in your car if you and drive to Dover or Portsmouth. You will see all the exports with your own eyes . I do not see any hauliers complaining about Brexit.
Reports results audited by independent third parties and good enough for many people .
If you want evidence of the success of Brexit maybe read your copy of the Daily Mail more carefully .At least a million people read it daily . They are unlikely to be wrong .
Like most people Brexit has made no difference to my life . It did however spur me into action and get a second passport. If I ever lose one I now have a back up copy .
We still import and export from the EU as per normal .
The predictions of 75000 job losses in the City and delays at shipping ports look laughable now .
In the words of another infamous poster...
“So you can’t provide actual proof then?” And “Telling people to do their own research just doesn’t cut it sorry”
We have established on this forum that none of the media can be trusted do pointing to any publication is a moot point.
We also can’t believe Govt data any more.
We also don’t believe experts because clearly they all have an agenda.
So you need to provide actual tangible proof and empirical evidence otherwise you will end up being accused, by some on here, of making stuff up. In fact some like to use the word “lies” or say posters are “liars” and I really would not want to see such posts directed at you Pat (assuming a non-partisan and level playing field of course!)
Just trying to help an old forum buddy out to avoid pitfalls
out of interest, there was a poster here the other week who posted regularly about many things often pro EU / bad UK stuff claiming them to be true but refused point blank to post any links at all despite being asked by several people. I don't recall you taking the same tone with them
I didn’t because plenty others already were. So my approach here is threefold:
1. Even things out.
2. Highlight hypocrisy (which of course works both ways).
3. Have a tongue in cheek laugh with my mate Pat who has been exchanging messages with me on these forums for years (since before you were a regular here). Pat gets the humour even if others take it all a bit too seriously!
So must be a total coincidence then I guess
Not remotely a coincidence! I thought that was obvious? It was a conscious and deliberate decision. If certain posters are demanding such things of people from one side of the political spectrum, then only fair someone/people do the same for the other side. Just trying to make things fair
Not sure why that is an issue?
It's not an issue at all, more my curiosity. Only thing is, I'm sure I have seen people with various positions or both sides if you prefer, asking for links and proof.
Great glad we agree I can ask what I want.
When exactly have these economists been right? Not had to completely revise their predictions? I prefer to take the positive view that can easily be found if you care to look for it. You can either be a glass half empty or a glass half " | |||
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"This is what happens after being mean to EU citizens in the UK. The message of the shameful referendum was heard by EU citizens in the UK. "Go away. You're not wanted". That was the message. That was why people including children cried on the morning of the referendum result. Shame on the UK for turning its back on its neighbours. Where now is the promise made by Michael Gove and Steve Baker and others, that EU citizens already in the UK will see "no change"? The so-called "settled status" scheme is an abomination. The annihilation of freedom of movement of people has stopped free movement of everything else as well. Free movement of people is linked to free movement of goods, services and money as well. That's an EU principle. No free movement of people? Then there's no free movement of the other three things either. A special exception has been made for Northern Ireland only - and only on goods. The dreadful Tory boast of denying freedom of movement of people has stripped the rights of British in the UK and in the rest of Europe as well. Did British voters realise that they were EU citizens too? Shame, shame on the UK for its selfish attitude rejecting a peace project. Now it's time to start repairing the damage. The first step should be better treatment for EU citizens with UK permanent residency. When is permanent residency not permanent? When it's been smashed up by ERG Tories. Where is a physical proof of status for EU citizens in the UK with "settled status"? The online-only scheme is a disgrace." You've told us that the Settled Status scheme is shameful and "an abomination", and that people (including children) cried, but you've not actually said what you think is wrong with it. How about another post where you drop all the emotion and actually tell us what you think is wrong, and how it should be fixed. | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones? You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right? I do know that's possible. I also know that your first post included the article, and your second post lambasted all those that disagreed with it. Your posts in this thread certainly don't give the impression of neutrality. So I'll ask my question again. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not a good one? By second post you mean: I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie Correct? I do not think anyone has established whether the research/forecast is good or bad. I certainly have not seen the data or the methodology (I just quoted some of the article) and I haven’t seen anyone post here that has either (unless I missed it?) So we are no further forward beyond people posting opinions on the validity of forecasting per se. Is anyone able to deconstruct the research methodology and outcome data and demonstrate why that is wrong using another source of data with a better methodology? If not we are back to these posts simply being opinion. May I ask. If you beleive it isn't incorrect why you beleive in the 7 years after brexit vote the uk would have outgrown France by 8% gdp. Something it never once came close to inside tbe e.u infact over any 7 year period I dont think the uk outgrew France by 1% whybwould this have changed from 2016? Similar woth Germany. What would the uk have done differently that meant 25 years of history suddenly went down the drain and gdp growth accelerated at a pace never before seen by the uk inside the e.umo thought this was a really good point as I had in my head we tracked and continue to track. So went out to prove you right. Yr Germany. Uk. France 2010 3,402.44 2,493.8 2,647.35 2016 3,468.9 2,709.68 2,472.28 Germany flat. Uk plus 8pc. France went backwards. This is gdp not gva. It's probably the trends OBR were using when doing 2016 forecasts. And so has driven the results in the methodology. Which use 16 one for the counterfactual. " If I understand that correctly then my reading of your post is that over 7 years 2010-2016 inclusive: - Germany grew 1.8% - UK grew 8.6% - France shrunk 6.6% So Morley saying the UK never outgrew France or Germany while in the EU is false? | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy. " How do you work that out? Isn't there equally as much for EU nations, after all they also need to complete customs forms etc, when trading with the UK. | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy. How do you work that out? Isn't there equally as much for EU nations, after all they also need to complete customs forms etc, when trading with the UK." To trade with Germany, do Italian companies have to fill out the same customs form as British companies do since Brexit? | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy." Have you taken into account the bureaucracy that we used to have in trading with non-EU countries, that now doesn't exist? How about all the EU compliance paperwork that we used to have to do, but now don't? | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy. Have you taken into account the bureaucracy that we used to have in trading with non-EU countries, that now doesn't exist? How about all the EU compliance paperwork that we used to have to do, but now don't?" it's a fair shout but do you have examples where they should be looking ... | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy. Have you taken into account the bureaucracy that we used to have in trading with non-EU countries, that now doesn't exist? " Are you sure there's no bureaucracy with other non-EU countries? " How about all the EU compliance paperwork that we used to have to do, but now don't?" | |||
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" How about another post where you drop all the emotion and actually tell us what you think is wrong, and how it should be fixed." Why should I drop the emotion? It's an outrage. It *is* emotional. Being in the EU means having a sense of belonging. That's totally emotional. It's practical as well. Being in the EU means having options. Having working and residence rights. Especially for couples who are citizens of neighbouring countries. And their families. To have that ripped away from you, after you built your life upon it, feels heartbreaking. Of *course* it's emotional. What's wrong is not having freedom of movement of people. What's wrong is not being covered by the EU principle of non-discrimination. What's wrong is not being covered by EU law, and by the European Commission, and by the EU's two-stage court. When the UK was in the EU, the UK was committed to treating the citizens of all the other EU countries in the UK equally compared to its own citizens. Discrimination against the citizens of other EU countries is banned under EU law. The EU principle of non-discrimination applies to businesses as well as people. It's illegal to discriminate against a fellow member country. What's wrong is not having the democratic rights. Being able to stand as a candidate in and vote in the European Parliament elections. Having the right to contact any EU body or institution and get a reply. When the UK was in the EU, one thing that was wrong was the UK never used the three month rule. The UK never expected people to register where they were living if they were staying more than 3 months. If the UK had used the EU 3-month rule, then Brits in the UK would have had to register where they were living if they were staying there for more than three months as well. The UK *did* use the habitual residence test. You can only claim benefits in an EU country if you normally live there. What's wrong is not being in the EU customs union and having to do ridiculous customs bureaucracy at the post office. Businesses are being hit by customs charges and delays and bureaucracy to do with customs. What's wrong is not being in the EU Rapid Alert System on customs. All the countries that are in the EU customs union get to know immediately when one country sees dangerous imports. The UK lags behind because it's not in the customs union. Even Turkey is in the EU customs union. What's wrong is not being in Euratom and having extra delays on materials for X-rays and cancer treatments. What's wrong is not being in the EU agencies like the Medicines Agency. More duplication of bureaucracy. What's wrong is it hits all the other EU countries as well. Especially Ireland. Why on earth should it be me who has to explain all this stuff? | |||
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" How about another post where you drop all the emotion and actually tell us what you think is wrong, and how it should be fixed. Why should I drop the emotion? It's an outrage. It *is* emotional. Being in the EU means having a sense of belonging. That's totally emotional. It's practical as well. Being in the EU means having options. Having working and residence rights. Especially for couples who are citizens of neighbouring countries. And their families. To have that ripped away from you, after you built your life upon it, feels heartbreaking. Of *course* it's emotional. What's wrong is not having freedom of movement of people. What's wrong is not being covered by the EU principle of non-discrimination. What's wrong is not being covered by EU law, and by the European Commission, and by the EU's two-stage court. When the UK was in the EU, the UK was committed to treating the citizens of all the other EU countries in the UK equally compared to its own citizens. Discrimination against the citizens of other EU countries is banned under EU law. The EU principle of non-discrimination applies to businesses as well as people. It's illegal to discriminate against a fellow member country. What's wrong is not having the democratic rights. Being able to stand as a candidate in and vote in the European Parliament elections. Having the right to contact any EU body or institution and get a reply. When the UK was in the EU, one thing that was wrong was the UK never used the three month rule. The UK never expected people to register where they were living if they were staying more than 3 months. If the UK had used the EU 3-month rule, then Brits in the UK would have had to register where they were living if they were staying there for more than three months as well. The UK *did* use the habitual residence test. You can only claim benefits in an EU country if you normally live there. What's wrong is not being in the EU customs union and having to do ridiculous customs bureaucracy at the post office. Businesses are being hit by customs charges and delays and bureaucracy to do with customs. What's wrong is not being in the EU Rapid Alert System on customs. All the countries that are in the EU customs union get to know immediately when one country sees dangerous imports. The UK lags behind because it's not in the customs union. Even Turkey is in the EU customs union. What's wrong is not being in Euratom and having extra delays on materials for X-rays and cancer treatments. What's wrong is not being in the EU agencies like the Medicines Agency. More duplication of bureaucracy. What's wrong is it hits all the other EU countries as well. Especially Ireland. Why on earth should it be me who has to explain all this stuff? " What's wrong is your belief that everything was so much better inside the EU, than it is today. You have said a lot above but somehow managed to say not a lot. Answer this: How has leaving the EU impacted you up to this moment, not could do, might do, or I won't be able, I mean tell me something that has changed that is so significant to your way of life today. | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy." "Have you taken into account the bureaucracy that we used to have in trading with non-EU countries, that now doesn't exist?" "Are you sure there's no bureaucracy with other non-EU countries?" What I meant was - we now have trade deals with other countries that eliminate some of the bureaucracy that we used to have in dealing with those countries. I should have made that a bit clearer. "How about all the EU compliance paperwork that we used to have to do, but now don't?" I imagine that this is by far the biggest reduction in paperwork. | |||
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"How about another post where you drop all the emotion and actually tell us what you think is wrong, and how it should be fixed." "Why should I drop the emotion?" Because your posts are so full of it that your point (if you have one) gets lost in all the emotional noise. If you want people to understand what you're saying, you need to tone it down a bit, and start thinking about what you want others to get from your post. "Being in the EU means having a sense of belonging. That's totally emotional. It's practical as well. Being in the EU means having options. Having working and residence rights. Especially for couples who are citizens of neighbouring countries. And their families. To have that ripped away from you, after you built your life upon it, feels heartbreaking. Of *course* it's emotional. What's wrong is not having freedom of movement of people. What's wrong is not being covered by the EU principle of non-discrimination. What's wrong is not being covered by EU law, and by the European Commission, and by the EU's two-stage court. When the UK was in the EU, the UK was committed to treating the citizens of all the other EU countries in the UK equally compared to its own citizens. Discrimination against the citizens of other EU countries is banned under EU law. The EU principle of non-discrimination applies to businesses as well as people. It's illegal to discriminate against a fellow member country. What's wrong is not having the democratic rights. Being able to stand as a candidate in and vote in the European Parliament elections. Having the right to contact any EU body or institution and get a reply. When the UK was in the EU, one thing that was wrong was the UK never used the three month rule. The UK never expected people to register where they were living if they were staying more than 3 months. If the UK had used the EU 3-month rule, then Brits in the UK would have had to register where they were living if they were staying there for more than three months as well. The UK *did* use the habitual residence test. You can only claim benefits in an EU country if you normally live there. What's wrong is not being in the EU customs union and having to do ridiculous customs bureaucracy at the post office. Businesses are being hit by customs charges and delays and bureaucracy to do with customs. What's wrong is not being in the EU Rapid Alert System on customs. All the countries that are in the EU customs union get to know immediately when one country sees dangerous imports. The UK lags behind because it's not in the customs union. Even Turkey is in the EU customs union. What's wrong is not being in Euratom and having extra delays on materials for X-rays and cancer treatments. What's wrong is not being in the EU agencies like the Medicines Agency. More duplication of bureaucracy. What's wrong is it hits all the other EU countries as well. Especially Ireland. Why on earth should it be me who has to explain all this stuff?" Because again you're not making sense. Earlier on you seemed to have something against the Settled Status scheme. I asked you what was wrong with it, and you've posted a massive rant about Brexit without mentioning anything about the Settled Status scheme. I'm afraid to ask a second time in case your tirade gets even longer. | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy. Have you taken into account the bureaucracy that we used to have in trading with non-EU countries, that now doesn't exist? Are you sure there's no bureaucracy with other non-EU countries? What I meant was - we now have trade deals with other countries that eliminate some of the bureaucracy that we used to have in dealing with those countries. I should have made that a bit clearer. How about all the EU compliance paperwork that we used to have to do, but now don't? I imagine that this is by far the biggest reduction in paperwork." How far do these go to off set all the extra red tape and paperwork they Brexit introduced? | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy. Have you taken into account the bureaucracy that we used to have in trading with non-EU countries, that now doesn't exist? Are you sure there's no bureaucracy with other non-EU countries? What I meant was - we now have trade deals with other countries that eliminate some of the bureaucracy that we used to have in dealing with those countries. I should have made that a bit clearer. How about all the EU compliance paperwork that we used to have to do, but now don't? I imagine that this is by far the biggest reduction in paperwork. How far do these go to off set all the extra red tape and paperwork they Brexit introduced?" You could call it different ways of working, unless you know exactly the difference between what used to be completed against what needs to be completed today. Is there an assumption it is more, when it could be the same or less | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy. Have you taken into account the bureaucracy that we used to have in trading with non-EU countries, that now doesn't exist? Are you sure there's no bureaucracy with other non-EU countries? What I meant was - we now have trade deals with other countries that eliminate some of the bureaucracy that we used to have in dealing with those countries. I should have made that a bit clearer. How about all the EU compliance paperwork that we used to have to do, but now don't? I imagine that this is by far the biggest reduction in paperwork. How far do these go to off set all the extra red tape and paperwork they Brexit introduced? You could call it different ways of working, unless you know exactly the difference between what used to be completed against what needs to be completed today. " Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots. " Is there an assumption it is more, when it could be the same or less" That's what I'm asking. If these small reductions might be close to offsetting the extra added to deal with out biggest trading partner. | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy. Have you taken into account the bureaucracy that we used to have in trading with non-EU countries, that now doesn't exist? Are you sure there's no bureaucracy with other non-EU countries? What I meant was - we now have trade deals with other countries that eliminate some of the bureaucracy that we used to have in dealing with those countries. I should have made that a bit clearer. How about all the EU compliance paperwork that we used to have to do, but now don't? I imagine that this is by far the biggest reduction in paperwork. How far do these go to off set all the extra red tape and paperwork they Brexit introduced? You could call it different ways of working, unless you know exactly the difference between what used to be completed against what needs to be completed today. Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots. Is there an assumption it is more, when it could be the same or less That's what I'm asking. If these small reductions might be close to offsetting the extra added to deal with out biggest trading partner." Are you sure there was no paperwork to complete on import / export when we part of the EU? | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy. Have you taken into account the bureaucracy that we used to have in trading with non-EU countries, that now doesn't exist? Are you sure there's no bureaucracy with other non-EU countries? What I meant was - we now have trade deals with other countries that eliminate some of the bureaucracy that we used to have in dealing with those countries. I should have made that a bit clearer. How about all the EU compliance paperwork that we used to have to do, but now don't? I imagine that this is by far the biggest reduction in paperwork. How far do these go to off set all the extra red tape and paperwork they Brexit introduced? You could call it different ways of working, unless you know exactly the difference between what used to be completed against what needs to be completed today. Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots. Is there an assumption it is more, when it could be the same or less That's what I'm asking. If these small reductions might be close to offsetting the extra added to deal with out biggest trading partner. Are you sure there was no paperwork to complete on import / export when we part of the EU?" definitely paperwork. But once done, you could basically smuggle at free will. That helps reduce red tape. | |||
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"If you're IN the EU there is LESS bureaucracy. If you're not then there is MORE bureaucracy. Have you taken into account the bureaucracy that we used to have in trading with non-EU countries, that now doesn't exist? Are you sure there's no bureaucracy with other non-EU countries? What I meant was - we now have trade deals with other countries that eliminate some of the bureaucracy that we used to have in dealing with those countries. I should have made that a bit clearer. How about all the EU compliance paperwork that we used to have to do, but now don't? I imagine that this is by far the biggest reduction in paperwork. How far do these go to off set all the extra red tape and paperwork they Brexit introduced? You could call it different ways of working, unless you know exactly the difference between what used to be completed against what needs to be completed today. Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots. Is there an assumption it is more, when it could be the same or less That's what I'm asking. If these small reductions might be close to offsetting the extra added to deal with out biggest trading partner. Are you sure there was no paperwork to complete on import / export when we part of the EU?" I'm not saying there was no paperwork. Just a lot less. | |||
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" "Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots" I'm not saying there was no paperwork. Just a lot less." You sure?? | |||
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" "Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots" I'm not saying there was no paperwork. Just a lot less. You sure?? "There was a lot less (that is a major point in having a single market) and we don’t even have everything in place yet b/w UK and EU due to delays/postponing. | |||
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" "Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots" I'm not saying there was no paperwork. Just a lot less. You sure??
There was a lot less (that is a major point in having a single market) and we don’t even have everything in place yet b/w UK and EU due to delays/postponing. "How much less? | |||
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" "Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots" I'm not saying there was no paperwork. Just a lot less. You sure??
There was a lot less (that is a major point in having a single market) and we don’t even have everything in place yet b/w UK and EU due to delays/postponing.
How much less? "A lot. | |||
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" "Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots" I'm not saying there was no paperwork. Just a lot less. You sure??
There was a lot less (that is a major point in having a single market) and we don’t even have everything in place yet b/w UK and EU due to delays/postponing.
How much less? "Approximately 87.235% less paperwork and forms saving c.23.6 hours per shipment.,. . . . . . . . | |||
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"something against the Settled Status scheme" Even the name is disgusting. Look at the initials. What do those initials suggest to someone whose grandparents faced persecution in Poland or the Netherlands? Let's quote from the repulsive referendum campaign. Johnson: "There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK". That turned into APPLY OR WE MAKE YOU UNLAWFUL. Now there's a story about a French woman who has lost her job because of it. She applied - online - with a smartphone - there's NO in-person application. She applied through the "wrong route". Smashing up freedom of movement of people has ruined lives. I know a British woman married to a Dane. She literally shook when she got home after trying to work out what her and her husband's options are. Smashing up EU freedom of movement is all hideous. Freedom of movement is an overwhelmingly good thing. | |||
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" "Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots" I'm not saying there was no paperwork. Just a lot less. You sure??
There was a lot less (that is a major point in having a single market) and we don’t even have everything in place yet b/w UK and EU due to delays/postponing. "There were none. I'm not saying there was no paperwork. Two contradicting statements. I just asked if he was sure of his second statement. | |||
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" Even the name is disgusting. Look at the initials. What do those initials suggest to someone whose grandparents faced persecution in Poland or the Netherlands? " Come on, that's beyond ridiculous | |||
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"something against the Settled Status scheme Even the name is disgusting. Look at the initials. What do those initials suggest to someone whose grandparents faced persecution in Poland or the Netherlands? Let's quote from the repulsive referendum campaign. Johnson: "There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK". That turned into APPLY OR WE MAKE YOU UNLAWFUL. Now there's a story about a French woman who has lost her job because of it. She applied - online - with a smartphone - there's NO in-person application. She applied through the "wrong route". Smashing up freedom of movement of people has ruined lives. I know a British woman married to a Dane. She literally shook when she got home after trying to work out what her and her husband's options are. Smashing up EU freedom of movement is all hideous. Freedom of movement is an overwhelmingly good thing." . Removal of freedom of movement is what the electorate wanted and voted for . I do not see many EU citizens with settled status complaining about the governments actions. Even EU citizens resident in the UK recognise the dangers of too many people coming to the UK and being employed in low paid menial work. The availability of cheap labour removed the incentive to automate and become more efficient. Many people in the UK provide essential services but cannot afford to buy a house . Immigration has added about 15 % to the cost of buying a house . It is hardly surprising that we voted to leave . We still trade with all EU countries and have increased our trade with non EU countries substantially . A few extra bits of paper are irrelevant . Other 60 % of hauliers voted to leave the EU. Any EU citizen simply had to apply for settled status . It takes about five minutes to complete the form and you obtained settled status shortly afterwards. Anyone mixing with EU citizens on a regular basis will realise that the impact of Brexit on them is non existent They simply spent five minutes filling in a form | |||
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" "Before Brexit there were none. Now there are lots" I'm not saying there was no paperwork. Just a lot less. You sure??
There was a lot less (that is a major point in having a single market) and we don’t even have everything in place yet b/w UK and EU due to delays/postponing. ". And who were the net beneficiaries of the single market .? It was hardly the UK as we were net contributors to the tune of 7.5 billion. | |||
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" Even the name is disgusting. Look at the initials. What do those initials suggest to someone whose grandparents faced persecution in Poland or the Netherlands? Come on, that's beyond ridiculous ". Maybe the poster should report it to the police as a race hate crime . Seems a bit strange that he is the only one to have ever complained about the name Settled Scheme Status | |||
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"something against the Settled Status scheme Even the name is disgusting. Look at the initials. What do those initials suggest to someone whose grandparents faced persecution in Poland or the Netherlands? Let's quote from the repulsive referendum campaign. Johnson: "There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK". That turned into APPLY OR WE MAKE YOU UNLAWFUL. Now there's a story about a French woman who has lost her job because of it. She applied - online - with a smartphone - there's NO in-person application. She applied through the "wrong route". Smashing up freedom of movement of people has ruined lives. I know a British woman married to a Dane. She literally shook when she got home after trying to work out what her and her husband's options are. Smashing up EU freedom of movement is all hideous. Freedom of movement is an overwhelmingly good thing." So your problem with the Settled Status scheme is that you are overly sensitive and have been triggered by the name. In addition, one French woman lost her job (but apparently was allowed to stay in the UK) after she used the wrong device to access the internet. Also your friend shivered after looking at her options (but then applied and was granted Settled Status). Have I got that right? | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones? You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right? I do know that's possible. I also know that your first post included the article, and your second post lambasted all those that disagreed with it. Your posts in this thread certainly don't give the impression of neutrality. So I'll ask my question again. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not a good one? By second post you mean: I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie Correct? I do not think anyone has established whether the research/forecast is good or bad. I certainly have not seen the data or the methodology (I just quoted some of the article) and I haven’t seen anyone post here that has either (unless I missed it?) So we are no further forward beyond people posting opinions on the validity of forecasting per se. Is anyone able to deconstruct the research methodology and outcome data and demonstrate why that is wrong using another source of data with a better methodology? If not we are back to these posts simply being opinion. May I ask. If you beleive it isn't incorrect why you beleive in the 7 years after brexit vote the uk would have outgrown France by 8% gdp. Something it never once came close to inside tbe e.u infact over any 7 year period I dont think the uk outgrew France by 1% whybwould this have changed from 2016? Similar woth Germany. What would the uk have done differently that meant 25 years of history suddenly went down the drain and gdp growth accelerated at a pace never before seen by the uk inside the e.umo thought this was a really good point as I had in my head we tracked and continue to track. So went out to prove you right. Yr Germany. Uk. France 2010 3,402.44 2,493.8 2,647.35 2016 3,468.9 2,709.68 2,472.28 Germany flat. Uk plus 8pc. France went backwards. This is gdp not gva. It's probably the trends OBR were using when doing 2016 forecasts. And so has driven the results in the methodology. Which use 16 one for the counterfactual. If I understand that correctly then my reading of your post is that over 7 years 2010-2016 inclusive: - Germany grew 1.8% - UK grew 8.6% - France shrunk 6.6% So Morley saying the UK never outgrew France or Germany while in the EU is false?" In which if these figures are correct… and I am not suggesting they are not.. this is a case of numbers being twisted to suit a narrative Germanys figure may appear flat… however because it started from a higher base point it’s still outperformed the uk Morley is right in saying the GDP grew exponentially, however because it started grow a lower base point still isn’t rising at the rate of the Germans | |||
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"The best forecasts will have a range of results that account for a range of possible variables coming true (risks becoming issues). And yet you started this thread by referring to a forecast which have a very specific £311bn figure as the impact to the economy. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not one of the good ones? You do realise it is possible to post articles to stimulate discussion and to do so without agreeing or disagreeing with them right? I do know that's possible. I also know that your first post included the article, and your second post lambasted all those that disagreed with it. Your posts in this thread certainly don't give the impression of neutrality. So I'll ask my question again. Have you now accepted that the forecast you referred to was not a good one? By second post you mean: I guessed as much. Economic forecasting is: A) Not believed B) Dismissed if commissioned by people who wear the wrong colour tie Correct? I do not think anyone has established whether the research/forecast is good or bad. I certainly have not seen the data or the methodology (I just quoted some of the article) and I haven’t seen anyone post here that has either (unless I missed it?) So we are no further forward beyond people posting opinions on the validity of forecasting per se. Is anyone able to deconstruct the research methodology and outcome data and demonstrate why that is wrong using another source of data with a better methodology? If not we are back to these posts simply being opinion. May I ask. If you beleive it isn't incorrect why you beleive in the 7 years after brexit vote the uk would have outgrown France by 8% gdp. Something it never once came close to inside tbe e.u infact over any 7 year period I dont think the uk outgrew France by 1% whybwould this have changed from 2016? Similar woth Germany. What would the uk have done differently that meant 25 years of history suddenly went down the drain and gdp growth accelerated at a pace never before seen by the uk inside the e.umo thought this was a really good point as I had in my head we tracked and continue to track. So went out to prove you right. Yr Germany. Uk. France 2010 3,402.44 2,493.8 2,647.35 2016 3,468.9 2,709.68 2,472.28 Germany flat. Uk plus 8pc. France went backwards. This is gdp not gva. It's probably the trends OBR were using when doing 2016 forecasts. And so has driven the results in the methodology. Which use 16 one for the counterfactual. If I understand that correctly then my reading of your post is that over 7 years 2010-2016 inclusive: - Germany grew 1.8% - UK grew 8.6% - France shrunk 6.6% So Morley saying the UK never outgrew France or Germany while in the EU is false? In which if these figures are correct… and I am not suggesting they are not.. this is a case of numbers being twisted to suit a narrative Germanys figure may appear flat… however because it started from a higher base point it’s still outperformed the uk Morley is right in saying the GDP grew exponentially, however because it started grow a lower base point still isn’t rising at the rate of the Germans " We need Morley to confirm what he meant when he said: "Something it never once came close to inside tbe e.u infact over any 7 year period I dont think the uk outgrew France by 1%" Because the figures from TAFKA clearly contradict that statement. | |||
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"Ominously quiet around here? Something is brewing!" I’m not sure constantly replying to your own string to encourage discussion of your favourite topic is appropriate. | |||
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"Ominously quiet around here? Something is brewing! I’m not sure constantly replying to your own string to encourage discussion of your favourite topic is appropriate." Thanks for attempting to set forum rules Rog but I’ll ignore them | |||
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"Ominously quiet around here? Something is brewing! I’m not sure constantly replying to your own string to encourage discussion of your favourite topic is appropriate. Thanks for attempting to set forum rules Rog but I’ll ignore them "Just unethical I’m afraid. It’s like posting positive reviews of your own products. | |||
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"Ominously quiet around here? Something is brewing!" He's gone I believe so can't reply | |||
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"Ominously quiet around here? Something is brewing! He's gone I believe so can't reply" I will miss the way he challenged people on here, very entertaining at times. | |||
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"Ominously quiet around here? Something is brewing! He's gone I believe so can't reply" permabanned ? His profile is still here. | |||
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"Ominously quiet around here? Something is brewing! He's gone I believe so can't replypermabanned ? His profile is still here. " I think forum. I can't be sure but I could tell he was skating. | |||
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"Ominously quiet around here? Something is brewing!" "He's gone I believe so can't reply" "permabanned ? His profile is still here." It's possible to be banned from the forums, but still allowed on the rest of Fab. I have no idea if this has happened to Morley, or if he's just busy doing other things. | |||
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"Ominously quiet around here? Something is brewing! He's gone I believe so can't replypermabanned ? His profile is still here. I think forum. I can't be sure but I could tell he was skating. " At least some people figured the reason I posted again to get him to respond and explain. I too would be disappointed if he was not to post any more. While we didn’t agree on a fair few things, he was at least intelligent and often knew his stuff. Far more enjoyable sparring with someone like that then some of the dullards on here!  | |||
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"Ominously quiet around here? Something is brewing! I’m not sure constantly replying to your own string to encourage discussion of your favourite topic is appropriate. Thanks for attempting to set forum rules Rog but I’ll ignore them
Just unethical I’m afraid.
It’s like posting positive reviews of your own products."You aren’t actually following the discussion are you Rog? | |||
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"Now there's a story about a French woman who has lost her job because of it. She applied - online - with a smartphone - there's NO in-person application. She applied through the "wrong route"." I was interested, so I thought I'd look up the details of this story. It turns out that the woman was living in the UK, but went to France and stayed for 18 months. When she came back, she made an application, knowing that she was 8 months past the deadline date. Sadly she applied for a 'foreigner coming to join family' visa, instead of the 'I am a UK resident' visa, so it wasn't granted. She had her right to work revoked, and her employer was forced to let her go, saying that they would hold the job for her. The Home Office say that even though more than 2 years have now passed, they will still consider her application if she makes one. https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/15/french-woman-heartbroken-after-losing-job-in-uk-after-brexit-speaks-out | |||
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"UPDATE: After the media attention, the Home Office contacted the woman and urged her to re-apply using the correct form. She did, and was immediately granted Settled Status. She now has her job back, and is happily living in the UK. https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/16/home-office-restores-rights-to-french-woman" I love a happy ending | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? ". I cannot see too many people losing any sleep over a report by Cambridge Econemetrics . I would much prefer to use a wide variety of data from various different sources . The reported results of all companies in the FTSE 350 should be a good enough assessment for most people. In addition all the results are fully audited and the directors reports will contain an assessment of future risks . Brexit hardly gets a mention these days . There are far more important things to consider . Currency movements , staff recruitment and retention , inflation and consumer demand to mention just a few. Brexit is not even worth thinking about these days . It has bought long term benefits to many British Hauliers | |||
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"UPDATE: After the media attention, the Home Office contacted the woman and urged her to re-apply using the correct form. She did, and was immediately granted Settled Status. She now has her job back, and is happily living in the UK. https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/16/home-office-restores-rights-to-french-woman" "I love a happy ending "Shame that the beginning was someone calling the Settled Status scheme "an abomination". | |||
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"Brexit is set to leave Britain’s economy £311bn worse off by the middle of the next decade, a damning new report by top economists has found. The scathing study by Cambridge Econometrics found that the decision to leave the EU had already cost the UK £140bn. The shock findings put the scale of the damage far higher than previous warnings by independent economists that Brexit caused a £33bn loss to the economy. The new report warned that Britain will continue to have lower investment, weaker trade and fewer jobs in the decade ahead as a consequence of being outside the bloc. The Cambridge study – commissioned by London mayor Sadiq Khan – said the country will have three million fewer jobs by 2035 than if it had stayed inside the EU. ++++++ Doesn’t sound good! I am assuming our resident Brexiters will have data/economic research to counter this claim? . I cannot see too many people losing any sleep over a report by Cambridge Econemetrics .
I would much prefer to use a wide variety of data from various different sources . The reported results of all companies in the FTSE 350 should be a good enough assessment for most people. In addition all the results are fully audited and the directors reports will contain an assessment of future risks . Brexit hardly gets a mention these days . There are far more important things to consider . Currency movements , staff recruitment and retention , inflation and consumer demand to mention just a few.
Brexit is not even worth thinking about these days . It has bought long term benefits to many British Hauliers "Quite right Pat. You make more and more sense with every post. Thank you | |||
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"UPDATE: After the media attention, the Home Office contacted the woman and urged her to re-apply using the correct form. She did, and was immediately granted Settled Status. She now has her job back, and is happily living in the UK. https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/16/home-office-restores-rights-to-french-woman I love a happy ending
Shame that the beginning was someone calling the Settled Status scheme "an abomination"."Emotional intelligence is at an all time low, expect more of this  | |||
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"I cannot see too many people losing any sleep over a report by Cambridge Econemetrics . I would much prefer to use a wide variety of data from various different sources . The reported results of all companies in the FTSE 350 should be a good enough assessment for most people. In addition all the results are fully audited and the directors reports will contain an assessment of future risks . Brexit hardly gets a mention these days . There are far more important things to consider . Currency movements , staff recruitment and retention , inflation and consumer demand to mention just a few. Brexit is not even worth thinking about these days . It has bought long term benefits to many British Hauliers " "Quite right Pat. You make more and more sense with every post. Thank you" To be fair, that last sentence of his is correct. British hauliers are doing much better without the competition from the cheap Eastern European countries. | |||
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"I cannot see too many people losing any sleep over a report by Cambridge Econemetrics . I would much prefer to use a wide variety of data from various different sources . The reported results of all companies in the FTSE 350 should be a good enough assessment for most people. In addition all the results are fully audited and the directors reports will contain an assessment of future risks . Brexit hardly gets a mention these days . There are far more important things to consider . Currency movements , staff recruitment and retention , inflation and consumer demand to mention just a few. Brexit is not even worth thinking about these days . It has bought long term benefits to many British Hauliers Quite right Pat. You make more and more sense with every post. Thank you To be fair, that last sentence of his is correct. British hauliers are doing much better without the competition from the cheap Eastern European countries." I know, that’s why I said “quite right Pat”. What else did you think I meant? | |||
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"And some more ‘cos I know you want it... The economists worked to isolate the “Brexit effect” from other factors such as Covid and the Ukraine war in its modelling. They found Britain will have 32 per cent lower investment, 16 per cent lower imports and 5 per cent lower exports by the middle of the next decade than without Brexit. The study also found that Brexit would further widen the productivity gap between the capital and the rest of the country. Shyamoli Patel, principal economist at Cambridge Econometrics, said: “Our study reveals that London’s economy would have grown faster if Brexit hadn’t taken place. “Looking ahead, we project that Brexit will continue to have an impact on the UK and London economies in the medium term.” Slow afternoon is it? What I find incredible about this kind of forecasting is that the UK economy seems to be doing slightly better than the eurozone economies. I mean we are talking here the minor difference between quite stagnant and very stagnant. But are we to believe that if the UK were still in the EU somehow the UK would be undergoing some kind of economic boom while the rest of the EU would still be seeing dismal economic performance? That’s just fantastical. The real outlier in terms of Western economic performance continues to be the US, which over decades has seen growth that far outstrips the EU or UK. Take a look at the relative sizes of the US and Eurozone economies since 2008. It’s not particularly surprising that the EU/UK are stagnant given the kind of high regulation, high tax, low productivity, big state, low skill immigration economic route that they have chosen to go down, nor is it surprising that the UK isn’t seeing even better growth given that it hasn’t really diverged much from the EU since 2019. If the report writers are so able to predict the future, one does wonder why they are not billionaires rather than sitting around suckling at Sadiq Khan’s teat for their bread." Bulls eye. | |||
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"something against the Settled Status scheme Even the name is disgusting. Look at the initials. What do those initials suggest to someone whose grandparents faced persecution in Poland or the Netherlands? Let's quote from the repulsive referendum campaign. Johnson: "There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK". That turned into APPLY OR WE MAKE YOU UNLAWFUL. Now there's a story about a French woman who has lost her job because of it. She applied - online - with a smartphone - there's NO in-person application. She applied through the "wrong route". Smashing up freedom of movement of people has ruined lives. I know a British woman married to a Dane. She literally shook when she got home after trying to work out what her and her husband's options are. Smashing up EU freedom of movement is all hideous. Freedom of movement is an overwhelmingly good thing." Freedom of movement is probably the biggest reason remain lost. The majority of people simple do not want it in its current form. If all the EU countries where similar economicaly it wouldn't have been an issue but because of the disparity in economies and welfare systems it caused mass migration on a scale never seen before. | |||
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"something against the Settled Status scheme Even the name is disgusting. Look at the initials. What do those initials suggest to someone whose grandparents faced persecution in Poland or the Netherlands? Let's quote from the repulsive referendum campaign. Johnson: "There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK". That turned into APPLY OR WE MAKE YOU UNLAWFUL. Now there's a story about a French woman who has lost her job because of it. She applied - online - with a smartphone - there's NO in-person application. She applied through the "wrong route". Smashing up freedom of movement of people has ruined lives. I know a British woman married to a Dane. She literally shook when she got home after trying to work out what her and her husband's options are. Smashing up EU freedom of movement is all hideous. Freedom of movement is an overwhelmingly good thing. Freedom of movement is probably the biggest reason remain lost. The majority of people simple do not want it in its current form. If all the EU countries where similar economicaly it wouldn't have been an issue but because of the disparity in economies and welfare systems it caused mass migration on a scale never seen before." Yeah I bet the Spanish were glad to put a stop to those 2m Brits taking over the Costas with their British Pubs serving Sunday Roast and bingo nights. Talk about not integrating with the local culture! | |||
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"2 million British people living in Spain? More Fake News! That’s more than the entire number of British people living in the whole of the EU! And how many EU citizens living in the UK? 5 million or so? Doesn’t seem like a fair exchange somehow. Surprising that the UK ended up leaving." There's just over 400k UK citizens residing in Spain. | |||
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"2 million British people living in Spain? More Fake News! That’s more than the entire number of British people living in the whole of the EU! And how many EU citizens living in the UK? 5 million or so? Doesn’t seem like a fair exchange somehow. Surprising that the UK ended up leaving. There's just over 400k UK citizens residing in Spain. " Not now, then and that was permanent resident and didn’t count snowbirds (I believe). | |||
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"2 million British people living in Spain? More Fake News! That’s more than the entire number of British people living in the whole of the EU! And how many EU citizens living in the UK? 5 million or so? Doesn’t seem like a fair exchange somehow. Surprising that the UK ended up leaving." You’re right Rog I was exaggerating but as per reply above I do not believe it included snowbirds. You were exaggerating on EU citz in UK too... “3.4 million EU nationals (excluding UK) were living in the UK“ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06077/ | |||
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"2 million British people living in Spain? More Fake News! That’s more than the entire number of British people living in the whole of the EU! And how many EU citizens living in the UK? 5 million or so? Doesn’t seem like a fair exchange somehow. Surprising that the UK ended up leaving." A) the figure of UK citizens taking advantage of freedom of movement in the EU at the time of the Brexit referendum was 3.2 million (hence the name of the action group… because they were not allowed to vote and wanted the chance to) B) you talk about it like an exchange.. so here is a secret for you…. People don’t come to the UK to retire!  so the people coming in to the UK were much much younger than the people going out! And the average person coming into the UK from the EU paid more in tax revenues back to the exchequer than the average brit did…. | |||
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"2 million British people living in Spain? More Fake News! That’s more than the entire number of British people living in the whole of the EU! And how many EU citizens living in the UK? 5 million or so? Doesn’t seem like a fair exchange somehow. Surprising that the UK ended up leaving. A) the figure of UK citizens taking advantage of freedom of movement in the EU at the time of the Brexit referendum was 3.2 million (hence the name of the action group… because they were not allowed to vote and wanted the chance to) B) you talk about it like an exchange.. so here is a secret for you…. People don’t come to the UK to retire! so the people coming in to the UK were much much younger than the people going out! And the average person coming into the UK from the EU paid more in tax revenues back to the exchequer than the average brit did…."What does “taking advantage of freedom of movement” mean exactly? That just sounds like a load of nothing designed to come up with a bigger number. And sure, some Spanish kid who can’t get a job in Spain comes to the UK to clean tables, live in a bed sit and pays taxes that would be paid by anyone who could do the same job. And in exchange we send over wealthy retirees who spend hundreds of thousands on property and their retirement income. Not to mention of course that the numbers of people who came to the UK from the whole EU by far exceeded the number of UK citizens who went to live across 26 other countries, with the consequent negative impacts on cultural cohesion. The idea of freedom of movement was a con which benefited failed socialist EU countries who couldn’t find their kids anything productive to do so they dumped them in Britain. | |||
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"2 million British people living in Spain? More Fake News! That’s more than the entire number of British people living in the whole of the EU! And how many EU citizens living in the UK? 5 million or so? Doesn’t seem like a fair exchange somehow. Surprising that the UK ended up leaving. A) the figure of UK citizens taking advantage of freedom of movement in the EU at the time of the Brexit referendum was 3.2 million (hence the name of the action group… because they were not allowed to vote and wanted the chance to) B) you talk about it like an exchange.. so here is a secret for you…. People don’t come to the UK to retire! so the people coming in to the UK were much much younger than the people going out! And the average person coming into the UK from the EU paid more in tax revenues back to the exchequer than the average brit did….
What does “taking advantage of freedom of movement” mean exactly? That just sounds like a load of nothing designed to come up with a bigger number.
And sure, some Spanish kid who can’t get a job in Spain comes to the UK to clean tables, live in a bed sit and pays taxes that would be paid by anyone who could do the same job.
And in exchange we send over wealthy retirees who spend hundreds of thousands on property and their retirement income.
Not to mention of course that the numbers of people who came to the UK from the whole EU by far exceeded the number of UK citizens who went to live across 26 other countries, with the consequent negative impacts on cultural cohesion.
The idea of freedom of movement was a con which benefited failed socialist EU countries who couldn’t find their kids anything productive to do so they dumped them in Britain."The money flowed East and the people went West. | |||
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"2 million British people living in Spain? More Fake News! That’s more than the entire number of British people living in the whole of the EU! And how many EU citizens living in the UK? 5 million or so? Doesn’t seem like a fair exchange somehow. Surprising that the UK ended up leaving. A) the figure of UK citizens taking advantage of freedom of movement in the EU at the time of the Brexit referendum was 3.2 million (hence the name of the action group… because they were not allowed to vote and wanted the chance to) B) you talk about it like an exchange.. so here is a secret for you…. People don’t come to the UK to retire! so the people coming in to the UK were much much younger than the people going out! And the average person coming into the UK from the EU paid more in tax revenues back to the exchequer than the average brit did…."migration watch claims 1.2m Brits in EU. ONS has lighter. What gives you faith in the 3.2m? | |||
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"2 million British people living in Spain? More Fake News! That’s more than the entire number of British people living in the whole of the EU! And how many EU citizens living in the UK? 5 million or so? Doesn’t seem like a fair exchange somehow. Surprising that the UK ended up leaving. A) the figure of UK citizens taking advantage of freedom of movement in the EU at the time of the Brexit referendum was 3.2 million (hence the name of the action group… because they were not allowed to vote and wanted the chance to) B) you talk about it like an exchange.. so here is a secret for you…. People don’t come to the UK to retire! so the people coming in to the UK were much much younger than the people going out! And the average person coming into the UK from the EU paid more in tax revenues back to the exchequer than the average brit did….
What does “taking advantage of freedom of movement” mean exactly? That just sounds like a load of nothing designed to come up with a bigger number.
And sure, some Spanish kid who can’t get a job in Spain comes to the UK to clean tables, live in a bed sit and pays taxes that would be paid by anyone who could do the same job.
And in exchange we send over wealthy retirees who spend hundreds of thousands on property and their retirement income.
Not to mention of course that the numbers of people who came to the UK from the whole EU by far exceeded the number of UK citizens who went to live across 26 other countries, with the consequent negative impacts on cultural cohesion.
The idea of freedom of movement was a con which benefited failed socialist EU countries who couldn’t find their kids anything productive to do so they dumped them in Britain."I’ve been avoiding the politics forum because of unfounded bollocks like this. EU migrants were always net contributors to the British economy. They were typically of working (and thus tax paying age), fitter (due to age) and also of course spent their wages here - more tax revenue. Ex-Pats (or British migrants, to give them their proper title) tend to be older, to spend less, and to require additional needs such as healthcare. (Not to mention creating British enclaves and not assimilating to local culture (sound familiar?) Now of course non-EU migration to the U.K. was always in govt’s power to control, they could have made it virtually zero if they chose to do so. But it remained above EU migration. Why? Because the U.K. has always needed, and will always need immigrants. | |||
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". The money flowed East and the people went West." Initially there was a surge in migration from Eastern Europe, notably Poland. But as Poland’s EU membership improved the local economy, migration from Poland settled and then waned. Poles began staying in Poland because they were finding good employment opportunities at home - thanks to EU membership. The UK benefitted from the migrants coming here, and also from Poland’s improved economy as part of the EU bloc. | |||
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"2 million British people living in Spain? More Fake News! That’s more than the entire number of British people living in the whole of the EU! And how many EU citizens living in the UK? 5 million or so? Doesn’t seem like a fair exchange somehow. Surprising that the UK ended up leaving. A) the figure of UK citizens taking advantage of freedom of movement in the EU at the time of the Brexit referendum was 3.2 million (hence the name of the action group… because they were not allowed to vote and wanted the chance to) B) you talk about it like an exchange.. so here is a secret for you…. People don’t come to the UK to retire! so the people coming in to the UK were much much younger than the people going out! And the average person coming into the UK from the EU paid more in tax revenues back to the exchequer than the average brit did….
What does “taking advantage of freedom of movement” mean exactly? That just sounds like a load of nothing designed to come up with a bigger number.
And sure, some Spanish kid who can’t get a job in Spain comes to the UK to clean tables, live in a bed sit and pays taxes that would be paid by anyone who could do the same job.
And in exchange we send over wealthy retirees who spend hundreds of thousands on property and their retirement income.
Not to mention of course that the numbers of people who came to the UK from the whole EU by far exceeded the number of UK citizens who went to live across 26 other countries, with the consequent negative impacts on cultural cohesion.
The idea of freedom of movement was a con which benefited failed socialist EU countries who couldn’t find their kids anything productive to do so they dumped them in Britain.
I’ve been avoiding the politics forum because of unfounded bollocks like this.
EU migrants were always net contributors to the British economy. They were typically of working (and thus tax paying age), fitter (due to age) and also of course spent their wages here - more tax revenue.
Ex-Pats (or British migrants, to give them their proper title) tend to be older, to spend less, and to require additional needs such as healthcare. (Not to mention creating British enclaves and not assimilating to local culture (sound familiar?)
Now of course non-EU migration to the U.K. was always in govt’s power to control, they could have made it virtually zero if they chose to do so. But it remained above EU migration. Why? Because the U.K. has always needed, and will always need immigrants.
"Why does it need immigrants? To prop up crap universities by doing fake courses and bringing their families with them? To do minimum wage manual work that could be done by the millions of working age British people who aren’t working? The new immigration system we were told would focus on bringing in highly skilled highly paid people from abroad. Instead of which it has just continued to bring in low or zero skilled people to do work that anyone could do. | |||
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"2 million British people living in Spain? More Fake News! That’s more than the entire number of British people living in the whole of the EU! And how many EU citizens living in the UK? 5 million or so? Doesn’t seem like a fair exchange somehow. Surprising that the UK ended up leaving. A) the figure of UK citizens taking advantage of freedom of movement in the EU at the time of the Brexit referendum was 3.2 million (hence the name of the action group… because they were not allowed to vote and wanted the chance to) B) you talk about it like an exchange.. so here is a secret for you…. People don’t come to the UK to retire! so the people coming in to the UK were much much younger than the people going out! And the average person coming into the UK from the EU paid more in tax revenues back to the exchequer than the average brit did….
What does “taking advantage of freedom of movement” mean exactly? That just sounds like a load of nothing designed to come up with a bigger number.
And sure, some Spanish kid who can’t get a job in Spain comes to the UK to clean tables, live in a bed sit and pays taxes that would be paid by anyone who could do the same job.
And in exchange we send over wealthy retirees who spend hundreds of thousands on property and their retirement income.
Not to mention of course that the numbers of people who came to the UK from the whole EU by far exceeded the number of UK citizens who went to live across 26 other countries, with the consequent negative impacts on cultural cohesion.
The idea of freedom of movement was a con which benefited failed socialist EU countries who couldn’t find their kids anything productive to do so they dumped them in Britain.
I’ve been avoiding the politics forum because of unfounded bollocks like this.
EU migrants were always net contributors to the British economy. They were typically of working (and thus tax paying age), fitter (due to age) and also of course spent their wages here - more tax revenue.
Ex-Pats (or British migrants, to give them their proper title) tend to be older, to spend less, and to require additional needs such as healthcare. (Not to mention creating British enclaves and not assimilating to local culture (sound familiar?)
Now of course non-EU migration to the U.K. was always in govt’s power to control, they could have made it virtually zero if they chose to do so. But it remained above EU migration. Why? Because the U.K. has always needed, and will always need immigrants.
Why does it need immigrants? To prop up crap universities by doing fake courses and bringing their families with them? To do minimum wage manual work that could be done by the millions of working age British people who aren’t working?
The new immigration system we were told would focus on bringing in highly skilled highly paid people from abroad. Instead of which it has just continued to bring in low or zero skilled people to do work that anyone could do."Because we have an aging workforce and a looming pension crisis. We’ve needed immigration for decades, as do all advanced nations. | |||
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"Are these the same economists that predicted that if there was a vote to leave, then within weeks we would go into a deep and prolonged recession; Houses would lose 20% of their value; 200,000 jobs would be lost in the city; Etc, etc, etc." https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit Perhaps they should have said 300,000 fewer jobs in the city, eh? | |||
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"Are these the same economists that predicted that if there was a vote to leave, then within weeks we would go into a deep and prolonged recession; Houses would lose 20% of their value; 200,000 jobs would be lost in the city; Etc, etc, etc. https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit Perhaps they should have said 300,000 fewer jobs in the city, eh? " Try 92,000. But as usual, it's always 'than would have had', never ACTUAL losses. From the City of London Breifing: There are 615,000 workers in the City of London, or 1 in every 52 GB workers. City jobs have grown over 13% since pre-pandemic 2019 to 2022, with nearly 73,000 more jobs than in 2019. | |||
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"Are these the same economists that predicted that if there was a vote to leave, then within weeks we would go into a deep and prolonged recession; Houses would lose 20% of their value; 200,000 jobs would be lost in the city; Etc, etc, etc. https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit Perhaps they should have said 300,000 fewer jobs in the city, eh? Try 92,000. But as usual, it's always 'than would have had', never ACTUAL losses. From the City of London Breifing: There are 615,000 workers in the City of London, or 1 in every 52 GB workers. City jobs have grown over 13% since pre-pandemic 2019 to 2022, with nearly 73,000 more jobs than in 2019." I’m not ‘trying’ anything, I posted a link - and k suspect that Cambridge econometrics know more about economics than you do I, right? | |||
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"Are these the same economists that predicted that if there was a vote to leave, then within weeks we would go into a deep and prolonged recession; Houses would lose 20% of their value; 200,000 jobs would be lost in the city; Etc, etc, etc. https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit Perhaps they should have said 300,000 fewer jobs in the city, eh? Try 92,000. But as usual, it's always 'than would have had', never ACTUAL losses. From the City of London Breifing: There are 615,000 workers in the City of London, or 1 in every 52 GB workers. City jobs have grown over 13% since pre-pandemic 2019 to 2022, with nearly 73,000 more jobs than in 2019. I’m not ‘trying’ anything, I posted a link - and k suspect that Cambridge econometrics know more about economics than you do I, right? " “You or I” - fat thumbs and this godawful forum not having an edit button. | |||
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"Are these the same economists that predicted that if there was a vote to leave, then within weeks we would go into a deep and prolonged recession; Houses would lose 20% of their value; 200,000 jobs would be lost in the city; Etc, etc, etc. https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit Perhaps they should have said 300,000 fewer jobs in the city, eh? Try 92,000. But as usual, it's always 'than would have had', never ACTUAL losses. From the City of London Breifing: There are 615,000 workers in the City of London, or 1 in every 52 GB workers. City jobs have grown over 13% since pre-pandemic 2019 to 2022, with nearly 73,000 more jobs than in 2019. I’m not ‘trying’ anything, I posted a link - and k suspect that Cambridge econometrics know more about economics than you do I, right? " The report said 92,000 in the City, you just have to read it. It takes to minutes to find the info I just pasted from the City themselves. | |||
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"Are these the same economists that predicted that if there was a vote to leave, then within weeks we would go into a deep and prolonged recession; Houses would lose 20% of their value; 200,000 jobs would be lost in the city; Etc, etc, etc. https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit Perhaps they should have said 300,000 fewer jobs in the city, eh? Try 92,000. But as usual, it's always 'than would have had', never ACTUAL losses. From the City of London Breifing: There are 615,000 workers in the City of London, or 1 in every 52 GB workers. City jobs have grown over 13% since pre-pandemic 2019 to 2022, with nearly 73,000 more jobs than in 2019. I’m not ‘trying’ anything, I posted a link - and k suspect that Cambridge econometrics know more about economics than you do I, right? The report said 92,000 in the City, you just have to read it. It takes to minutes to find the info I just pasted from the City themselves. " And then I got caught with a typo. I'll start a new thread in the morning, this should be quite interesting. | |||
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