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"Morning Rog. You do seem to complain a lot about a lot of things! You ok?" Thank you for your useful contribution to the debate. Please do not concern yourself with my wellbeing. If I am unwell I will dial 111 for some inclusive automated advice. | |||
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"Morning Rog. You do seem to complain a lot about a lot of things! You ok? Thank you for your useful contribution to the debate. Please do not concern yourself with my wellbeing. If I am unwell I will dial 111 for some inclusive automated advice." Glad you are ok. So just angry then? About seemingly everything! How many topics have you started over xmas? | |||
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"Morning Rog. You do seem to complain a lot about a lot of things! You ok? Thank you for your useful contribution to the debate. Please do not concern yourself with my wellbeing. If I am unwell I will dial 111 for some inclusive automated advice." Latest advice to ward off dementia perhaps, IE engaging the executive processing functions of the frontal lobe of the brain. Oh wait, 111 is for acute diseases  | |||
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"For once our politicians have got something right. There are going to be lots of “green jobs”. Unfortunately they are all going to be in China and the UK won’t see any benefit, aside from yet more personal and national debt as we compulsorily “invest” in those electric vehicles, heat pumps and solar panels. For once “puny Britain” can unilaterally achieve something and save the planet by funding Chinese billionaires. And the future of our grandchildren is safe, as impoverished CCP serfs. The West’s economic suicide continues apace. " Wait aren't you always saying the UK needs to steer clear of renewable energy and anything green. And now you're complaining that we're lagging behind China. Make up you're mind. | |||
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" but if no-one is willing to get their hands dirty who's fault is that?" Obviously Jeremy Corbyn | |||
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"I'd imagine any non-green manufacturing jobs would also be in china. So this isn't about green... But industry as a whole. " Green jobs include other sectors too, construction, energy production etc. Weirdly, the OP is correct, the UK is lagging behind other countries such as China. | |||
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" but if no-one is willing to get their hands dirty who's fault is that? Obviously Jeremy Corbyn " Remoaners maybe? | |||
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"It is a green mess, no strategy just a lot of talking heads. The manufacturing of products sits outside of the UK and those products are being sold to us by proxy. It is time to invest in the UK's nuclear future, the money shelved from HS2 would be a good start and I'm sure they have enough building supplies to start the groundworks, or has all that vaporised into think air too?" I'm in a moment of full agreement. | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future." I like my Japanese car  | |||
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"It is a green mess, no strategy just a lot of talking heads. The manufacturing of products sits outside of the UK and those products are being sold to us by proxy. It is time to invest in the UK's nuclear future, the money shelved from HS2 would be a good start and I'm sure they have enough building supplies to start the groundworks, or has all that vaporised into think air too?" Agreed nuclear is the way to go | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future." It is a lack of strategy, bumbling on driven by the next loudest voice and ticking any box that gives a green credential. I'm also personally not convinced EV's are the future, I think they are being thrust upon the public by governments that see it as a way of being green without them having to do anything other than legislate. If governments were serious about making EV's the future, we would have by now a plan to standardise the infrastructure and technologies! They have many lessons learned, with simple things like standardising USB-C for mobile phones, so they know the pitfalls and are doing nothing to support the progression. There is no plan, COP28 showed us that. | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future. It is a lack of strategy, bumbling on driven by the next loudest voice and ticking any box that gives a green credential. I'm also personally not convinced EV's are the future, I think they are being thrust upon the public by governments that see it as a way of being green without them having to do anything other than legislate. If governments were serious about making EV's the future, we would have by now a plan to standardise the infrastructure and technologies! They have many lessons learned, with simple things like standardising USB-C for mobile phones, so they know the pitfalls and are doing nothing to support the progression. There is no plan, COP28 showed us that." This is something I know virtually nothing about but I recall reading something about there never being enough power in the grid for everyone to have EVs and that actually the future is more likely to be hydrogen engines? | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future. It is a lack of strategy, bumbling on driven by the next loudest voice and ticking any box that gives a green credential. I'm also personally not convinced EV's are the future, I think they are being thrust upon the public by governments that see it as a way of being green without them having to do anything other than legislate. If governments were serious about making EV's the future, we would have by now a plan to standardise the infrastructure and technologies! They have many lessons learned, with simple things like standardising USB-C for mobile phones, so they know the pitfalls and are doing nothing to support the progression. There is no plan, COP28 showed us that. This is something I know virtually nothing about but I recall reading something about there never being enough power in the grid for everyone to have EVs and that actually the future is more likely to be hydrogen engines?" The market for EV's is strong in the company car world due to tax incentives, outside of that they are failing to sell in numbers and the used market is dead. Then the real issue hits home, it takes as much if not more energy / greenhouse gasses and resources to make an EV as it does a combustion engine car, as well as the greenhouse gasses and energy it takes to produce the power to charge the car. Benefit comes from no emissions at the exhaust. If EV's are being made and not being used for the length of time as an ICE car, will the EV become more polluting over its lifetime due to its early retirement and lack of consumer interest? I think it has the potential to offer no significant benefits. | |||
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" I'm also personally not convinced EV's are the future. " Have you seen the amount of progress made by EVs? Superchargers are being available everywhere. Nio, a Chinese EV maker recently tested a 150KWH battery that gives a range of over 1000KM. The same company also pioneered battery swap technology. If you take your car to a swap station, the battery gets swapped within 3 minutes by a fully automated system. Remember that ICE cars weren't perfect to begin with. Given the amount of money going into research for EVs and also power generation, it would soon be a no-brainer to buy EV both in terms of initial and running costs. " If governments were serious about making EV's the future, we would have by now a plan to standardise the infrastructure and technologies! They have many lessons learned, with simple things like standardising USB-C for mobile phones, so they know the pitfalls and are doing nothing to support the progression. " This attitude is something I find mostly among Europeans and one of the reasons why innovation is dead here. Why do you want the government to do everything? Most important standardisations happened without the government. I recently visited US and I was surprised at the number of teslas and other EVs going around. They didn't need a government to standardise anything. Tesla's superchargers are easily the superior technology. So all the other EVs are signing up to use Tesla's superchargers and follow those standards because Tesla's charging network is huge and it would be a stupid business decision to not use the same standards. | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future. It is a lack of strategy, bumbling on driven by the next loudest voice and ticking any box that gives a green credential. I'm also personally not convinced EV's are the future, I think they are being thrust upon the public by governments that see it as a way of being green without them having to do anything other than legislate. If governments were serious about making EV's the future, we would have by now a plan to standardise the infrastructure and technologies! They have many lessons learned, with simple things like standardising USB-C for mobile phones, so they know the pitfalls and are doing nothing to support the progression. There is no plan, COP28 showed us that. This is something I know virtually nothing about but I recall reading something about there never being enough power in the grid for everyone to have EVs and that actually the future is more likely to be hydrogen engines? The market for EV's is strong in the company car world due to tax incentives, outside of that they are failing to sell in numbers and the used market is dead. Then the real issue hits home, it takes as much if not more energy / greenhouse gasses and resources to make an EV as it does a combustion engine car, as well as the greenhouse gasses and energy it takes to produce the power to charge the car. Benefit comes from no emissions at the exhaust. If EV's are being made and not being used for the length of time as an ICE car, will the EV become more polluting over its lifetime due to its early retirement and lack of consumer interest? I think it has the potential to offer no significant benefits. " Yes I read that too. No point having a nice attractive headline figure on exhaust emissions if manufacturing, lifespan, and scrappage ends up being higher wiping out the benefits. In addition there is controversy around the components needed and how ethically they are sourced (such as, I think, lithium for the batteries)? | |||
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" This is something I know virtually nothing about but I recall reading something about there never being enough power in the grid for everyone to have EVs and that actually the future is more likely to be hydrogen engines?" It was not like we had enough petroleum production for everyone to have petrol cars when when petrol cars were sold. If there is demand, we will produce enough electricity. Hydrogen is also an option. There are some companies trying to use hydrogen for heavy trucks. The challenge there is to produce hydrogen for cheap. Large scale hydrogen generation is still not up there. But there are enough people investing in it, again in the US and China, not much in Europe. | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future." The problem is purely political. Oil companies, their directors, their directors wives donate vast sums of money to political parties and individual candidates. So they aren't motivated to move on this. EVs are only a small part of the puzzle | |||
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" I'm also personally not convinced EV's are the future. Have you seen the amount of progress made by EVs? Superchargers are being available everywhere. Nio, a Chinese EV maker recently tested a 150KWH battery that gives a range of over 1000KM. The same company also pioneered battery swap technology. If you take your car to a swap station, the battery gets swapped within 3 minutes by a fully automated system. Remember that ICE cars weren't perfect to begin with. Given the amount of money going into research for EVs and also power generation, it would soon be a no-brainer to buy EV both in terms of initial and running costs. If governments were serious about making EV's the future, we would have by now a plan to standardise the infrastructure and technologies! They have many lessons learned, with simple things like standardising USB-C for mobile phones, so they know the pitfalls and are doing nothing to support the progression. This attitude is something I find mostly among Europeans and one of the reasons why innovation is dead here. Why do you want the government to do everything? Most important standardisations happened without the government. I recently visited US and I was surprised at the number of teslas and other EVs going around. They didn't need a government to standardise anything. Tesla's superchargers are easily the superior technology. So all the other EVs are signing up to use Tesla's superchargers and follow those standards because Tesla's charging network is huge and it would be a stupid business decision to not use the same standards. " I remember having a conversation with you on USB-C and how it was being made a standard in the EU. I have new iPhone and I have benefited greatly from that change. You misunderstand my appetite for government intervention, I would like events like COP to be a place that standardisation can be agreed by governments and business, this is how we move more swiftly and not get bogged down in an advertising race that might or might not be successful, many examples exist of this. Putting aside the technology improvements in EV's there are promising technologies on the horizon, hydrogen we know about, and synthetic fuels which are gaining momentum | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future. The problem is purely political. Oil companies, their directors, their directors wives donate vast sums of money to political parties and individual candidates. So they aren't motivated to move on this. EVs are only a small part of the puzzle " In the US, 2% of new cars sold were electric in 2020. It has already tripled to 6% in July 2023. If anything, US is the country most affected by lobbyists. But they have made a lot of progress already. There is no point blaming the government here. If companies can make good quality EVs at cheaper cost, people will buy them. | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future. The problem is purely political. Oil companies, their directors, their directors wives donate vast sums of money to political parties and individual candidates. So they aren't motivated to move on this. EVs are only a small part of the puzzle In the US, 2% of new cars sold were electric in 2020. It has already tripled to 6% in July 2023. If anything, US is the country most affected by lobbyists. But they have made a lot of progress already. There is no point blaming the government here. If companies can make good quality EVs at cheaper cost, people will buy them. " I was commenting on the overall situation, not just EVs. | |||
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" I'm also personally not convinced EV's are the future. Have you seen the amount of progress made by EVs? Superchargers are being available everywhere. Nio, a Chinese EV maker recently tested a 150KWH battery that gives a range of over 1000KM. The same company also pioneered battery swap technology. If you take your car to a swap station, the battery gets swapped within 3 minutes by a fully automated system. Remember that ICE cars weren't perfect to begin with. Given the amount of money going into research for EVs and also power generation, it would soon be a no-brainer to buy EV both in terms of initial and running costs. If governments were serious about making EV's the future, we would have by now a plan to standardise the infrastructure and technologies! They have many lessons learned, with simple things like standardising USB-C for mobile phones, so they know the pitfalls and are doing nothing to support the progression. This attitude is something I find mostly among Europeans and one of the reasons why innovation is dead here. Why do you want the government to do everything? Most important standardisations happened without the government. I recently visited US and I was surprised at the number of teslas and other EVs going around. They didn't need a government to standardise anything. Tesla's superchargers are easily the superior technology. So all the other EVs are signing up to use Tesla's superchargers and follow those standards because Tesla's charging network is huge and it would be a stupid business decision to not use the same standards. I remember having a conversation with you on USB-C and how it was being made a standard in the EU. I have new iPhone and I have benefited greatly from that change. You misunderstand my appetite for government intervention, I would like events like COP to be a place that standardisation can be agreed by governments and business, this is how we move more swiftly and not get bogged down in an advertising race that might or might not be successful, many examples exist of this. Putting aside the technology improvements in EV's there are promising technologies on the horizon, hydrogen we know about, and synthetic fuels which are gaining momentum " I still stand with my original view that USB C standardisation was a stupid move. People will find it convenient for now but will affect them long term when new innovation comes in. But standardising a nascent technology like EV charging now itself is just plain wrong. The moment government standardises something and says this is what everyone must do, the incentive for innovation is reduced. If someone invents a superior charging technology, they now have the additional overhead of convincing the government to update their standards. A government enforced standardisation will not speed things up. It will slow down innovation. We did not need the government to standardise HTTP or any of the internet protocols. The markets will standardise where it makes sense to standardise just as they are already doing with Tesla superchargers. It doesn't make business sense for a new car company to make up different charging standards, unless it comes with lots of benefits which compensates for that. | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future. The problem is purely political. Oil companies, their directors, their directors wives donate vast sums of money to political parties and individual candidates. So they aren't motivated to move on this. EVs are only a small part of the puzzle In the US, 2% of new cars sold were electric in 2020. It has already tripled to 6% in July 2023. If anything, US is the country most affected by lobbyists. But they have made a lot of progress already. There is no point blaming the government here. If companies can make good quality EVs at cheaper cost, people will buy them. I was commenting on the overall situation, not just EVs. " What exactly do you think governments must do? | |||
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" I'm also personally not convinced EV's are the future. Have you seen the amount of progress made by EVs? Superchargers are being available everywhere. Nio, a Chinese EV maker recently tested a 150KWH battery that gives a range of over 1000KM. The same company also pioneered battery swap technology. If you take your car to a swap station, the battery gets swapped within 3 minutes by a fully automated system. Remember that ICE cars weren't perfect to begin with. Given the amount of money going into research for EVs and also power generation, it would soon be a no-brainer to buy EV both in terms of initial and running costs. If governments were serious about making EV's the future, we would have by now a plan to standardise the infrastructure and technologies! They have many lessons learned, with simple things like standardising USB-C for mobile phones, so they know the pitfalls and are doing nothing to support the progression. This attitude is something I find mostly among Europeans and one of the reasons why innovation is dead here. Why do you want the government to do everything? Most important standardisations happened without the government. I recently visited US and I was surprised at the number of teslas and other EVs going around. They didn't need a government to standardise anything. Tesla's superchargers are easily the superior technology. So all the other EVs are signing up to use Tesla's superchargers and follow those standards because Tesla's charging network is huge and it would be a stupid business decision to not use the same standards. I remember having a conversation with you on USB-C and how it was being made a standard in the EU. I have new iPhone and I have benefited greatly from that change. You misunderstand my appetite for government intervention, I would like events like COP to be a place that standardisation can be agreed by governments and business, this is how we move more swiftly and not get bogged down in an advertising race that might or might not be successful, many examples exist of this. Putting aside the technology improvements in EV's there are promising technologies on the horizon, hydrogen we know about, and synthetic fuels which are gaining momentum I still stand with my original view that USB C standardisation was a stupid move. People will find it convenient for now but will affect them long term when new innovation comes in. But standardising a nascent technology like EV charging now itself is just plain wrong. The moment government standardises something and says this is what everyone must do, the incentive for innovation is reduced. If someone invents a superior charging technology, they now have the additional overhead of convincing the government to update their standards. A government enforced standardisation will not speed things up. It will slow down innovation. We did not need the government to standardise HTTP or any of the internet protocols. The markets will standardise where it makes sense to standardise just as they are already doing with Tesla superchargers. It doesn't make business sense for a new car company to make up different charging standards, unless it comes with lots of benefits which compensates for that." Again you are missing the collaboration that I’m trying to get over to you, not a government, governments with business. To move in a direction on a global footing isn’t like a tech company playing around with data speeds and connectivity options over cables… As I have mentioned, I’m not convinced with EV, I was initially but not now. | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future. The problem is purely political. Oil companies, their directors, their directors wives donate vast sums of money to political parties and individual candidates. So they aren't motivated to move on this. EVs are only a small part of the puzzle In the US, 2% of new cars sold were electric in 2020. It has already tripled to 6% in July 2023. If anything, US is the country most affected by lobbyists. But they have made a lot of progress already. There is no point blaming the government here. If companies can make good quality EVs at cheaper cost, people will buy them. I was commenting on the overall situation, not just EVs. What exactly do you think governments must do? " Step one. Stop taking money from the oil industry. Step two. Stop making policy and decisions about energy, industry, housing, etc that benefits fossil fuel company profits. Step three. Encourage investment in sustainable industries, technology, energy generation, reduction in wastage etc. | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future. The problem is purely political. Oil companies, their directors, their directors wives donate vast sums of money to political parties and individual candidates. So they aren't motivated to move on this. EVs are only a small part of the puzzle In the US, 2% of new cars sold were electric in 2020. It has already tripled to 6% in July 2023. If anything, US is the country most affected by lobbyists. But they have made a lot of progress already. There is no point blaming the government here. If companies can make good quality EVs at cheaper cost, people will buy them. I was commenting on the overall situation, not just EVs. What exactly do you think governments must do? Step one. Stop taking money from the oil industry. Step two. Stop making policy and decisions about energy, industry, housing, etc that benefits fossil fuel company profits. Step three. Encourage investment in sustainable industries, technology, energy generation, reduction in wastage etc." Tell me some clear policy decisions that the government should make? Tell me how to "encourage investment" into sustainable industries. Why do you think investments in sustainable industries are happening much faster in US and China without the government having to do anything? | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future. The problem is purely political. Oil companies, their directors, their directors wives donate vast sums of money to political parties and individual candidates. So they aren't motivated to move on this. EVs are only a small part of the puzzle In the US, 2% of new cars sold were electric in 2020. It has already tripled to 6% in July 2023. If anything, US is the country most affected by lobbyists. But they have made a lot of progress already. There is no point blaming the government here. If companies can make good quality EVs at cheaper cost, people will buy them. I was commenting on the overall situation, not just EVs. What exactly do you think governments must do? Step one. Stop taking money from the oil industry. Step two. Stop making policy and decisions about energy, industry, housing, etc that benefits fossil fuel company profits. Step three. Encourage investment in sustainable industries, technology, energy generation, reduction in wastage etc. Tell me some clear policy decisions that the government should make? " As an example, stop granting licenses for more oil and gas drilling. As another, loans or grants for home solar. As we have done before. " Tell me how to "encourage investment" into sustainable industries. Why do you think investments in sustainable industries are happening much faster in US and China without the government having to do anything? " As far as I'm aware, the US is also lagging behind the rest of the world. And the Chinese government invests a lot in green energy. If you're interested there is an article in the WJS titled "China’s Spending on Green Energy Is Causing a Global Glut" "China's state-guided economy spent nearly $80 billion on clean-energy manufacturing last year, around 90% of all such investment worldwide, BloombergNEF estimates." | |||
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" As an example, stop granting licenses for more oil and gas drilling. As another, loans or grants for home solar. As we have done before. " Oil and gas drilling cannot be stopped now because we do not have an alternative. The other option you are giving is for the government to throw money for free. " As far as I'm aware, the US is also lagging behind the rest of the world. And the Chinese government invests a lot in green energy. If you're interested there is an article in the WJS titled "China’s Spending on Green Energy Is Causing a Global Glut" "China's state-guided economy spent nearly $80 billion on clean-energy manufacturing last year, around 90% of all such investment worldwide, BloombergNEF estimates."" Throwing more money doesn't always mean good outcome. In spite of China throwing money at it, their CO2 emissions have gone up like crazy in the last few years whereas US emissions have gone down in the past decade. | |||
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"Morning Rog. You do seem to complain a lot about a lot of things! You ok? Thank you for your useful contribution to the debate. Please do not concern yourself with my wellbeing. If I am unwell I will dial 111 for some inclusive automated advice. Glad you are ok. So just angry then? About seemingly everything! How many topics have you started over xmas? " Well fell free to start some that’s what the forum is about. Or are you waiting for some government department to tell you what to write? | |||
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" As an example, stop granting licenses for more oil and gas drilling. As another, loans or grants for home solar. As we have done before. Oil and gas drilling cannot be stopped now because we do not have an alternative. The other option you are giving is for the government to throw money for free. " I didn't say stop drilling, Just stop granting more licenses. However we do have alternatives, this whole discussion is why there is a lack of a move to the alternatives. " As far as I'm aware, the US is also lagging behind the rest of the world. And the Chinese government invests a lot in green energy. If you're interested there is an article in the WJS titled "China’s Spending on Green Energy Is Causing a Global Glut" "China's state-guided economy spent nearly $80 billion on clean-energy manufacturing last year, around 90% of all such investment worldwide, BloombergNEF estimates." Throwing more money doesn't always mean good outcome. In spite of China throwing money at it, their CO2 emissions have gone up like crazy in the last few years whereas US emissions have gone down in the past decade." You said the Chinese government aren't doing anything, I just showed you they are is all. I have no comment on the effectiveness of their investments. | |||
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"It is a green mess, no strategy just a lot of talking heads. The manufacturing of products sits outside of the UK and those products are being sold to us by proxy. It is time to invest in the UK's nuclear future, the money shelved from HS2 would be a good start and I'm sure they have enough building supplies to start the groundworks, or has all that vaporised into think air too? Agreed nuclear is the way to go boom" FTFY  | |||
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" This is something I know virtually nothing about but I recall reading something about there never being enough power in the grid for everyone to have EVs and that actually the future is more likely to be hydrogen engines? It was not like we had enough petroleum production for everyone to have petrol cars when when petrol cars were sold. If there is demand, we will produce enough electricity. Hydrogen is also an option. There are some companies trying to use hydrogen for heavy trucks. The challenge there is to produce hydrogen for cheap. Large scale hydrogen generation is still not up there. But there are enough people investing in it, again in the US and China, not much in Europe." When you say... "It was not like we had enough petroleum production for everyone to have petrol cars when when petrol cars were sold." Do you mean when petrol cars were first introduced? If so then that is not comparable. When petrol cars were first launched the starting point was zero car ownership. Today car ownership in the western world is likely equal to one per household. The demand is instantly greater. | |||
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" Again you are missing the collaboration that I’m trying to get over to you, not a government, governments with business. To move in a direction on a global footing isn’t like a tech company playing around with data speeds and connectivity options over cables… As I have mentioned, I’m not convinced with EV, I was initially but not now. " I got thrown into fab naughty corner for replying to this with an article's link that has list of companies who have already signed up to Tesla's NACS standards. Here is the list anyway: BMW, Ford, Genesis, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar, Kia, Lucid, Mini, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz, Polestar, Rivian, Toyota, and Volvo have said that their vehicles will be able to use certain Tesla Superchargers starting as soon as 2024. Volkswagen Group of America since announced that its brands—Audi, Porsche, Scout Motors, and Volkswagen—will implement the NACS standard on vehicles starting in the 2025 model year. So standardisation is already happening simply because it's the right thing to do. Why should we bring a bunch of government bureaucrats who know nothing about the technology into this business? If we want faster progress and innovation, government involvement is the last thing we need in this industry. Let the industry experts figure out what's good for the consumers. | |||
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"China is in deep $hlt. It has $6.8 trillion dept, a property bubble, uncontrolled capital outflows, a shrinking economy .... the list goes on. " They have fucked themselves with the Covid and one-child policies. That being said, their population is still hard working, they have good business mindset and have an innovation-friendly environment. Unless the impact of the population bomb is too much, I expect them to handle the crisis reasonably well. | |||
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"China is in deep $hlt. It has $6.8 trillion dept, a property bubble, uncontrolled capital outflows, a shrinking economy .... the list goes on. They have fucked themselves with the Covid and one-child policies. That being said, their population is still hard working, they have good business mindset and have an innovation-friendly environment. Unless the impact of the population bomb is too much, I expect them to handle the crisis reasonably well." The one child policy ended in.... | |||
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"China is in deep $hlt. It has $6.8 trillion dept, a property bubble, uncontrolled capital outflows, a shrinking economy .... the list goes on. They have fucked themselves with the Covid and one-child policies. That being said, their population is still hard working, they have good business mindset and have an innovation-friendly environment. Unless the impact of the population bomb is too much, I expect them to handle the crisis reasonably well. The one child policy ended in...." 2016. While the birth rates will increase a bit, it won't come close to the replacement rate as people just don't want that many kids. | |||
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" Again you are missing the collaboration that I’m trying to get over to you, not a government, governments with business. To move in a direction on a global footing isn’t like a tech company playing around with data speeds and connectivity options over cables… As I have mentioned, I’m not convinced with EV, I was initially but not now. I got thrown into fab naughty corner for replying to this with an article's link that has list of companies who have already signed up to Tesla's NACS standards. Here is the list anyway: BMW, Ford, Genesis, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar, Kia, Lucid, Mini, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz, Polestar, Rivian, Toyota, and Volvo have said that their vehicles will be able to use certain Tesla Superchargers starting as soon as 2024. Volkswagen Group of America since announced that its brands—Audi, Porsche, Scout Motors, and Volkswagen—will implement the NACS standard on vehicles starting in the 2025 model year. So standardisation is already happening simply because it's the right thing to do. Why should we bring a bunch of government bureaucrats who know nothing about the technology into this business? If we want faster progress and innovation, government involvement is the last thing we need in this industry. Let the industry experts figure out what's good for the consumers. " The reason governments need a seat at the table is to enable them to build a global strategy rather than individual or small groups strategies that are in my opinion already starting to break. The idea of only EV manufacturing by 2035 has taken a backward step here and in Germany. Governments blindly signing up and committing to pledges of we will be X by Y, is finger in the air stuff and as some manufacturers like JLR committed to stop building ICE earlier under that direction, they could be in position of losing sales. eFuels, could also make things difficult for the full uptake in EV, time will tell but a plan that is achievable should be the starting point. | |||
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" Again you are missing the collaboration that I’m trying to get over to you, not a government, governments with business. To move in a direction on a global footing isn’t like a tech company playing around with data speeds and connectivity options over cables… As I have mentioned, I’m not convinced with EV, I was initially but not now. I got thrown into fab naughty corner for replying to this with an article's link that has list of companies who have already signed up to Tesla's NACS standards. Here is the list anyway: BMW, Ford, Genesis, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar, Kia, Lucid, Mini, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz, Polestar, Rivian, Toyota, and Volvo have said that their vehicles will be able to use certain Tesla Superchargers starting as soon as 2024. Volkswagen Group of America since announced that its brands—Audi, Porsche, Scout Motors, and Volkswagen—will implement the NACS standard on vehicles starting in the 2025 model year. So standardisation is already happening simply because it's the right thing to do. Why should we bring a bunch of government bureaucrats who know nothing about the technology into this business? If we want faster progress and innovation, government involvement is the last thing we need in this industry. Let the industry experts figure out what's good for the consumers. The reason governments need a seat at the table is to enable them to build a global strategy rather than individual or small groups strategies that are in my opinion already starting to break. The idea of only EV manufacturing by 2035 has taken a backward step here and in Germany. Governments blindly signing up and committing to pledges of we will be X by Y, is finger in the air stuff and as some manufacturers like JLR committed to stop building ICE earlier under that direction, they could be in position of losing sales. eFuels, could also make things difficult for the full uptake in EV, time will tell but a plan that is achievable should be the starting point. " If it were for the government to learn from companies to shape their policies, that would be fine by me. Different countries coming up with random time targets to force EVs was a bad idea. If governments wanted high EV adoption, they can just provide subsidies for buyers and stop with that. I agree that those targets were pulled out of their arse. The way I see it, EV companies figure out a way to sort the issues they have - charging time, fixing range anxeity, charging infrastructure, cost of purchase and ownership, etc. At some point, EV ownership will be a straightforward choice in terms of performance, comfort and cost. Then people will naturally switch. | |||
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"The question should be why aren't European countries able to build big companies which can take advantage of the green drive around the world. It's not just the UK. Every country is trying to reduce its carbon footprint and for the right reason. Whether you like it or not, electric cars are going to be the future. Yet you have the traditional European car manufacturers still crawling slowly towards making electric cars. You have multiple American and Chinese companies which have emerged as market leaders in this sector already. It's not just about green initiative. Innovation and business competitiveness are basically dead in Europe in most sectors. So I don't see how Europe can avoid depending on the US or Asian countries for everything in the future. I like my Japanese car "Much prefer Japanese motorbikes. | |||
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" If governments were serious about making EV's the future, we would have by now a plan to standardise the infrastructure and technologies! They have many lessons learned, with simple things like standardising USB-C for mobile phones, so they know the pitfalls and are doing nothing to support the progression. There is no plan, COP28 showed us that." …. And the ironic thing about what terra said here is that in the last year or so this is exactly what has happened in the EV industry…. Standardisation!!! Only that it has happened in North America!! Where Tesla are going to open up their network of chargers to non tesla’s vehicles and car manufacturers are all going to use tesla’s charging ports…. It started with an agreement with Ford, then GM, then BMW and it snowballed… And now there is an independent organisation overseeing it all … where the Tesla system has been renamed to NACS (north America charging standard) So it can be done… the next stage would be if the car manufacturers in Europe don’t do it themselves, the Eu again May force it upon them | |||
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"So it can be done… the next stage would be if the car manufacturers in Europe don’t do it themselves, the Eu again May force it upon them " The EU legislated for a standard charging plug for EVs back in 2014 (Directive 2014/94/EU). | |||
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"So it can be done… the next stage would be if the car manufacturers in Europe don’t do it themselves, the Eu again May force it upon them The EU legislated for a standard charging plug for EVs back in 2014 (Directive 2014/94/EU)." Typical EU prematurely ejaculating and passing regulations even before a technology grows, just like did with AI. | |||
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