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"Does this mean that war crimes will be supported too? It seems to me that the USA decide on what are war crimes and who gets prosecuted." Election coming up, so Biden has to appeal to the perceived support amongst his electorate for Israel. Plus he represents the interests of the US arms manufacturers. | |||
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"Does this mean that war crimes will be supported too? It seems to me that the USA decide on what are war crimes and who gets prosecuted." "The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court" have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes. | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated." What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? " It isn’t murder, it’s war. A war started by Hamas terrorists. Now they are bleating about the consequences. Where do you get your numbers from? Hamas? | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? " The issue is that under international law, and building or land used for military purposes can become a legitimate military target So when we talk about “war crimes” like bombing a hospital, Israel will have intel that the hospital was being used to store military equipment, making it a military target, so not a war crime Hamas is literally stood behind civilians launching rockets at Israel and we’re all meant to get upset when Israel fights back? Get upset with Hamas for their war crimes, I’m pretty sure using civilians as meat shields falls under a war crime somewhere in law | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? " For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack? | |||
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"Is there a difference between a war crimes and a breach of rules of.engagement? " Yes. One has a specific legal(ish) definition. The other is an arbitrary set of rules by which an army chooses to pursue war. Rules of engagement will change according to the threat and threats of operation. There will be different rules, say, in the home country vs an enemy's, or urban vs open terrain. | |||
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"I absolutely condemn the Oct attacks by hamas and they are without doubt a vile terrorist organisation. However the Isrealis have tormented the Palestinians for 70 years and are without doubt the major protagonists in the conflict. In the last 15 years 95 per cent of civilian deaths have been Palestinians. 99.74 Palestinian detainees are convicted by Isreali kangaroo courts. 80 per cent of gazan children suffer deep psychological trauma due to constant IsraelI bombardment. Israel regularly pokes the hornets nest , strategically and tactically to inflame and exacerbate in order to keep the blood money coming in from u.s. congress and the powerful Jewish lobby. The main industry in Isreal is war. There is also credible evidence that Netanyahu and his disgusting cohorts knew in advance that the attack was imminent. I don't know if that is true but if so the word evil does not suffice. There are reports of the idf being instructed to stand down. If there is one redeeming light amongst the carnage it is that most " thinking and ethical " people no longer believe the smoke and mirror tactics and bullshit propaganda spouted by Isreal . Except those wearing blinkers or the most gullible. The Isreali apologists on here , thank you for reinforcing my ethical and intellectual superiority . Not one empathetic message toward the terrible plight of the gazan people. Also for the record I support Isreals right to defend itself and its right to exist. " You were kinda doing OK and then you said 'thank you for reinforcing my ethical and intellectual superiority'  | |||
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"I absolutely condemn the Oct attacks by hamas and they are without doubt a vile terrorist organisation. However the Isrealis have tormented the Palestinians for 70 years and are without doubt the major protagonists in the conflict. In the last 15 years 95 per cent of civilian deaths have been Palestinians. 99.74 Palestinian detainees are convicted by Isreali kangaroo courts. 80 per cent of gazan children suffer deep psychological trauma due to constant IsraelI bombardment. Israel regularly pokes the hornets nest , strategically and tactically to inflame and exacerbate in order to keep the blood money coming in from u.s. congress and the powerful Jewish lobby. The main industry in Isreal is war. There is also credible evidence that Netanyahu and his disgusting cohorts knew in advance that the attack was imminent. I don't know if that is true but if so the word evil does not suffice. There are reports of the idf being instructed to stand down. If there is one redeeming light amongst the carnage it is that most " thinking and ethical " people no longer believe the smoke and mirror tactics and bullshit propaganda spouted by Isreal . Except those wearing blinkers or the most gullible. The Isreali apologists on here , thank you for reinforcing my ethical and intellectual superiority . Not one empathetic message toward the terrible plight of the gazan people. Also for the record I support Isreals right to defend itself and its right to exist. " You seem well informed on the matter. What is your solution for the Israelis, given the realistic temperament of the region and the belligerents involved? | |||
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"I absolutely condemn the Oct attacks by hamas and they are without doubt a vile terrorist organisation. However the Isrealis have tormented the Palestinians for 70 years and are without doubt the major protagonists in the conflict. In the last 15 years 95 per cent of civilian deaths have been Palestinians. 99.74 Palestinian detainees are convicted by Isreali kangaroo courts. 80 per cent of gazan children suffer deep psychological trauma due to constant IsraelI bombardment. Israel regularly pokes the hornets nest , strategically and tactically to inflame and exacerbate in order to keep the blood money coming in from u.s. congress and the powerful Jewish lobby. The main industry in Isreal is war. There is also credible evidence that Netanyahu and his disgusting cohorts knew in advance that the attack was imminent. I don't know if that is true but if so the word evil does not suffice. There are reports of the idf being instructed to stand down. If there is one redeeming light amongst the carnage it is that most " thinking and ethical " people no longer believe the smoke and mirror tactics and bullshit propaganda spouted by Isreal . Except those wearing blinkers or the most gullible. The Isreali apologists on here , thank you for reinforcing my ethical and intellectual superiority . Not one empathetic message toward the terrible plight of the gazan people. Also for the record I support Isreals right to defend itself and its right to exist. " If you think supporting a terrorist group who murder innocent people all over the world gives you moral superiority I'd suggest your mistaken. You've presented statements as fact, then stated you don't know if they're true. If you don't know something is true, perhaps don't state it as fact, better still, leave it out altogether. I have every sympathy for the innocent people of Gaza as does every right minded person. I have little sympathy for Hamas. I've not seen you express any sympathy for the deaths of innocent Israelis killed in the 7th October. Why? Your moral high ground seems quite slippery on one side of the hill. | |||
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" I've not seen you express any sympathy for the deaths of innocent Israelis killed in the 7th October. Why? " To be fair, he began with "I absolutely condemn the Oct attacks by hamas and they are without doubt a vile terrorist organisation." Slightly different, but still... | |||
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" I've not seen you express any sympathy for the deaths of innocent Israelis killed in the 7th October. Why? To be fair, he began with "I absolutely condemn the Oct attacks by hamas and they are without doubt a vile terrorist organisation." Slightly different, but still..." For sure, condemning the attacks is what any right minded person would do. I'm glad he said it. Falls a way short of expressing sympathy for the Israelis, while berating people for not showing sympathy for the Palestinians though. | |||
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"Does this mean that war crimes will be supported too? It seems to me that the USA decide on what are war crimes and who gets prosecuted." Well the US are not a signatory to the international criminal court… so they have their own specific definition of genocide and war crime Just because by US law, if the government labels sometimes as “genocide” then no assistance at all can be given to that country in any way shape or form (for example weapons for iron dome) Notice the journalists who were allowed in with the IDF were all American, so they were good at getting their side other the story in… Whereas for example not the case for European journalists | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack?" You say for the interest of balanced discussion, and then go and inflate the figure of Israelis killed on October the 7th. The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths | |||
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" I've not seen you express any sympathy for the deaths of innocent Israelis killed in the 7th October. Why? To be fair, he began with "I absolutely condemn the Oct attacks by hamas and they are without doubt a vile terrorist organisation." Slightly different, but still... For sure, condemning the attacks is what any right minded person would do. I'm glad he said it. Falls a way short of expressing sympathy for the Israelis, while berating people for not showing sympathy for the Palestinians though. " So now the standard " Do you condemn Hamas" question is not enough. Its followed by " Do you sympathise with the Israelis people"..? So if one answers that positively it will be followed by another statement that requires to be made. Don't understand how this actually adds anything to the debate. | |||
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"Does this mean that war crimes will be supported too? It seems to me that the USA decide on what are war crimes and who gets prosecuted." As of yet no war crimes.so we won't know | |||
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"Is there a difference between a war crimes and a breach of rules of.engagement? " Yes. | |||
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"Is there a difference between a war crimes and a breach of rules of.engagement? Yes." Yes, and proportionality! If the IDF discover a sniper in a hospital, then they can fire at his/her location as the Hospital's protection has been transgressed... But. The IDF cannot blow up the whole hospital.! It proportionality! Not does that mean they can indiscriminatly fire on civilians. The three isreali hostages shot dead while waving white flags and stripped to show they weren't suicide bombers demonstrates the isreali attitude and readiness to commit crimes. Anyone thinking otherwise is just foolish or trolling | |||
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"Ok.. just read the posts Firstly, two wrongs don't make a right: 7 October was a crime no doubt, but the isrealis are the architects of their own trouble by 70 years of oppression and land stealing, plus settlers murdering palisitinians. Hamas commited crimes yes, Isreal has the right to defend itself, yes. But Isreal is going beyond self defence by killing more civilians in 3 months than the Americans did in Afghanistan in 20 years! Isreal is recruiting even more hamas fighters and fuel the war for years more. Fabio mentioned the USA arnt signatories to the human rights , I didn't know that. As a side note, sanctions against Afghanistan to apose the Taliban , has lead to many children there starving to death. There's very little good being created by so called international justice." Have you got an independent source for the total civilians dead. | |||
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"Israel have the right to defend themselves against hamas war crimes and terrorism, it is strange how hamas have won the support from the people and the media." That's because: 1. Large amounts of innocent civilians being killed 2. Isreal are just as bad as hamas by the needless killing and starvation of innocent civilians Pretty obvious really | |||
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"Israel have the right to defend themselves against hamas war crimes and terrorism, it is strange how hamas have won the support from the people and the media." Actually haven't seen any media supporting Hamas. Innocent Palestinians yes, Hamas no. | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack? You say for the interest of balanced discussion, and then go and inflate the figure of Israelis killed on October the 7th. The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths" Is the figure of 20,000 Palestinian deaths accurate? Because all im seeing seeing here is people calling out one side for xyz and failing to do the same for the other side. That's the balance I'd like. These discussions lack balance and experience of living in that part of the world? | |||
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" 2. Isreal are just as bad as hamas by the needless killing and starvation of innocent civilians Pretty obvious really " When you say "Israel", do you mean all citizens? Jewish citizens? A small minority within the country? When you say "Hamas", do you mean all citizens of Gaza, the West Bank, both or neither? Who is as bad as whom? | |||
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" I've not seen you express any sympathy for the deaths of innocent Israelis killed in the 7th October. Why? To be fair, he began with "I absolutely condemn the Oct attacks by hamas and they are without doubt a vile terrorist organisation." Slightly different, but still... For sure, condemning the attacks is what any right minded person would do. I'm glad he said it. Falls a way short of expressing sympathy for the Israelis, while berating people for not showing sympathy for the Palestinians though. So now the standard " Do you condemn Hamas" question is not enough. Its followed by " Do you sympathise with the Israelis people"..? So if one answers that positively it will be followed by another statement that requires to be made. Don't understand how this actually adds anything to the debate." Again, the imbalance. The poster I quoted is crying for a lack of sympathy for the Palestinians killed, but wholly silent on sympathy for the Israeli deaths. So no, condemning Hamas is not equal to showing sympathy for the Israeli deaths. You can't call foul on one and ignore the other. | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. " Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue" This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve." I also remember the botched attempted assassinations of people in other countries such as Norway, where several civilians died… which is also against international law and a war crime…. | |||
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"Have war crimes been committed on both sides… absolutely… The abhorrent attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th by Hamas and the IDF response on the general Palestinian population ever since… Collective punishment of a population is a war crime, the blockade of humanitarian aid, food, medicine and fuel was a deliberately cruel act …. We were told it was all smart ammunition at the beginning… targeted, now we find out via US reports that half of it have been dumb bombs Targeting of schools, hospitals, un facilities, journalists If you are moving a population further and further south into a smaller and smaller area, that is cleansing…. You are finally hearing the truth from Israeli politicians, such as the Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom last week who said that the two state solution isn’t on the table! You had a far right Israeli government minister talking last week in front of a map of “greater Israel” which consisted of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and a rather large chunk of Jordan You have Isreal flaunting international law by actively settling people in occupied territories….. " And Hamas can surrender and bring an instant end to this, but hey ho let's not state the obvious and easiest solution. | |||
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" 2. Isreal are just as bad as hamas by the needless killing and starvation of innocent civilians Pretty obvious really When you say "Israel", do you mean all citizens? Jewish citizens? A small minority within the country? When you say "Hamas", do you mean all citizens of Gaza, the West Bank, both or neither? Who is as bad as whom?" Isreal : govt and armed forces. Hamas: members of hamas terrorist group and their political leadership The rest are victims on all sides. Exception being illegal Isreali settlers killing palisitinian civilians on their own land. | |||
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"Have war crimes been committed on both sides… absolutely… The abhorrent attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th by Hamas and the IDF response on the general Palestinian population ever since… Collective punishment of a population is a war crime, the blockade of humanitarian aid, food, medicine and fuel was a deliberately cruel act …. We were told it was all smart ammunition at the beginning… targeted, now we find out via US reports that half of it have been dumb bombs Targeting of schools, hospitals, un facilities, journalists If you are moving a population further and further south into a smaller and smaller area, that is cleansing…. You are finally hearing the truth from Israeli politicians, such as the Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom last week who said that the two state solution isn’t on the table! You had a far right Israeli government minister talking last week in front of a map of “greater Israel” which consisted of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and a rather large chunk of Jordan You have Isreal flaunting international law by actively settling people in occupied territories….. And Hamas can surrender and bring an instant end to this, but hey ho let's not state the obvious and easiest solution. " Hamas is the creation of isreali govt policy for 70 years. Perhaps if both sides learnt they have to live together then a truce and then an agreement.. yitsak rabean tried about 40 years ago to do a deal with hamas for a truce but a right wing isreali assassinated him. What you suggest will recruit more hamas fighters, why would they surrender? Isreali policy over the past 70 years will condemn them for years more conflict with hamas. Perhaps a new isreali strategy is long on coming. | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. I also remember the botched attempted assassinations of people in other countries such as Norway, where several civilians died… which is also against international law and a war crime…. "  | |||
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"Have war crimes been committed on both sides… absolutely… The abhorrent attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th by Hamas and the IDF response on the general Palestinian population ever since… Collective punishment of a population is a war crime, the blockade of humanitarian aid, food, medicine and fuel was a deliberately cruel act …. We were told it was all smart ammunition at the beginning… targeted, now we find out via US reports that half of it have been dumb bombs Targeting of schools, hospitals, un facilities, journalists If you are moving a population further and further south into a smaller and smaller area, that is cleansing…. You are finally hearing the truth from Israeli politicians, such as the Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom last week who said that the two state solution isn’t on the table! You had a far right Israeli government minister talking last week in front of a map of “greater Israel” which consisted of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and a rather large chunk of Jordan You have Isreal flaunting international law by actively settling people in occupied territories….. And Hamas can surrender and bring an instant end to this, but hey ho let's not state the obvious and easiest solution. Hamas is the creation of isreali govt policy for 70 years. Perhaps if both sides learnt they have to live together then a truce and then an agreement.. yitsak rabean tried about 40 years ago to do a deal with hamas for a truce but a right wing isreali assassinated him. What you suggest will recruit more hamas fighters, why would they surrender? Isreali policy over the past 70 years will condemn them for years more conflict with hamas. Perhaps a new isreali strategy is long on coming. " Why should they surrender, is quite the question when people are dying all around the Hamas terrorists, now let me think what benefits could come from surrendering….. | |||
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" Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. " Interesting how hamas killing innocent isrealis = bad (and it is! Btw) Isreal forces killing innocent palisitinians = acceptable Both sides should be investigated In time I think you'll find how Isreal has underestimated hamas's resolve too. It's a tragedy. | |||
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"Have war crimes been committed on both sides… absolutely… The abhorrent attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th by Hamas and the IDF response on the general Palestinian population ever since… Collective punishment of a population is a war crime, the blockade of humanitarian aid, food, medicine and fuel was a deliberately cruel act …. We were told it was all smart ammunition at the beginning… targeted, now we find out via US reports that half of it have been dumb bombs Targeting of schools, hospitals, un facilities, journalists If you are moving a population further and further south into a smaller and smaller area, that is cleansing…. You are finally hearing the truth from Israeli politicians, such as the Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom last week who said that the two state solution isn’t on the table! You had a far right Israeli government minister talking last week in front of a map of “greater Israel” which consisted of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and a rather large chunk of Jordan You have Isreal flaunting international law by actively settling people in occupied territories….. And Hamas can surrender and bring an instant end to this, but hey ho let's not state the obvious and easiest solution. " I was having this discussion today. What does a hamas surrender actually look like for Israel, and what would the world then look like. We got as far as Israel wanting to take prisoner some key leaders. Probably handing over weapons. But they couldn't take every hamas fighter,surely ? And how would they be confident new generals (or a new party) wouldn't replace what they had taken ? And what with Gaza? How would that look compared to before this war started? | |||
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"Have war crimes been committed on both sides… absolutely… The abhorrent attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th by Hamas and the IDF response on the general Palestinian population ever since… Collective punishment of a population is a war crime, the blockade of humanitarian aid, food, medicine and fuel was a deliberately cruel act …. We were told it was all smart ammunition at the beginning… targeted, now we find out via US reports that half of it have been dumb bombs Targeting of schools, hospitals, un facilities, journalists If you are moving a population further and further south into a smaller and smaller area, that is cleansing…. You are finally hearing the truth from Israeli politicians, such as the Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom last week who said that the two state solution isn’t on the table! You had a far right Israeli government minister talking last week in front of a map of “greater Israel” which consisted of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and a rather large chunk of Jordan You have Isreal flaunting international law by actively settling people in occupied territories….. And Hamas can surrender and bring an instant end to this, but hey ho let's not state the obvious and easiest solution. Hamas is the creation of isreali govt policy for 70 years. Perhaps if both sides learnt they have to live together then a truce and then an agreement.. yitsak rabean tried about 40 years ago to do a deal with hamas for a truce but a right wing isreali assassinated him. What you suggest will recruit more hamas fighters, why would they surrender? Isreali policy over the past 70 years will condemn them for years more conflict with hamas. Perhaps a new isreali strategy is long on coming. Why should they surrender, is quite the question when people are dying all around the Hamas terrorists, now let me think what benefits could come from surrendering….. " Not a surrender by any side! A truce and ceasefire. Too late now but there was a suggestion by hamas that if Isreal gave back the land taken, a truce could be formed. Yitsak rabean also offered a truce before being assassinated. There was a chance back then but not now. More years of bloodshed. I'm sure you don't want that. Your talking fantasy but a realistic grounded solution is needed | |||
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"Have war crimes been committed on both sides… absolutely… The abhorrent attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th by Hamas and the IDF response on the general Palestinian population ever since… Collective punishment of a population is a war crime, the blockade of humanitarian aid, food, medicine and fuel was a deliberately cruel act …. We were told it was all smart ammunition at the beginning… targeted, now we find out via US reports that half of it have been dumb bombs Targeting of schools, hospitals, un facilities, journalists If you are moving a population further and further south into a smaller and smaller area, that is cleansing…. You are finally hearing the truth from Israeli politicians, such as the Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom last week who said that the two state solution isn’t on the table! You had a far right Israeli government minister talking last week in front of a map of “greater Israel” which consisted of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and a rather large chunk of Jordan You have Isreal flaunting international law by actively settling people in occupied territories….. And Hamas can surrender and bring an instant end to this, but hey ho let's not state the obvious and easiest solution. I was having this discussion today. What does a hamas surrender actually look like for Israel, and what would the world then look like. We got as far as Israel wanting to take prisoner some key leaders. Probably handing over weapons. But they couldn't take every hamas fighter,surely ? And how would they be confident new generals (or a new party) wouldn't replace what they had taken ? And what with Gaza? How would that look compared to before this war started? " That is because you are thinking of surrender in all its form and not the act of simply giving up. I would assume a surrender would come with caveats, rebuilding and reparations from both sides. It could pave the way to a better future, it might lead to nothing but it will stop the killing | |||
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"Have war crimes been committed on both sides… absolutely… The abhorrent attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th by Hamas and the IDF response on the general Palestinian population ever since… Collective punishment of a population is a war crime, the blockade of humanitarian aid, food, medicine and fuel was a deliberately cruel act …. We were told it was all smart ammunition at the beginning… targeted, now we find out via US reports that half of it have been dumb bombs Targeting of schools, hospitals, un facilities, journalists If you are moving a population further and further south into a smaller and smaller area, that is cleansing…. You are finally hearing the truth from Israeli politicians, such as the Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom last week who said that the two state solution isn’t on the table! You had a far right Israeli government minister talking last week in front of a map of “greater Israel” which consisted of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and a rather large chunk of Jordan You have Isreal flaunting international law by actively settling people in occupied territories….. And Hamas can surrender and bring an instant end to this, but hey ho let's not state the obvious and easiest solution. Hamas is the creation of isreali govt policy for 70 years. Perhaps if both sides learnt they have to live together then a truce and then an agreement.. yitsak rabean tried about 40 years ago to do a deal with hamas for a truce but a right wing isreali assassinated him. What you suggest will recruit more hamas fighters, why would they surrender? Isreali policy over the past 70 years will condemn them for years more conflict with hamas. Perhaps a new isreali strategy is long on coming. Why should they surrender, is quite the question when people are dying all around the Hamas terrorists, now let me think what benefits could come from surrendering….. Not a surrender by any side! A truce and ceasefire. Too late now but there was a suggestion by hamas that if Isreal gave back the land taken, a truce could be formed. Yitsak rabean also offered a truce before being assassinated. There was a chance back then but not now. More years of bloodshed. I'm sure you don't want that. Your talking fantasy but a realistic grounded solution is needed " It would be hard for Israel to stomach a truce, they need to see a surrender, as per the post I made above here. | |||
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"Have war crimes been committed on both sides… absolutely… The abhorrent attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th by Hamas and the IDF response on the general Palestinian population ever since… Collective punishment of a population is a war crime, the blockade of humanitarian aid, food, medicine and fuel was a deliberately cruel act …. We were told it was all smart ammunition at the beginning… targeted, now we find out via US reports that half of it have been dumb bombs Targeting of schools, hospitals, un facilities, journalists If you are moving a population further and further south into a smaller and smaller area, that is cleansing…. You are finally hearing the truth from Israeli politicians, such as the Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom last week who said that the two state solution isn’t on the table! You had a far right Israeli government minister talking last week in front of a map of “greater Israel” which consisted of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and a rather large chunk of Jordan You have Isreal flaunting international law by actively settling people in occupied territories….. And Hamas can surrender and bring an instant end to this, but hey ho let's not state the obvious and easiest solution. I was having this discussion today. What does a hamas surrender actually look like for Israel, and what would the world then look like. We got as far as Israel wanting to take prisoner some key leaders. Probably handing over weapons. But they couldn't take every hamas fighter,surely ? And how would they be confident new generals (or a new party) wouldn't replace what they had taken ? And what with Gaza? How would that look compared to before this war started? That is because you are thinking of surrender in all its form and not the act of simply giving up. I would assume a surrender would come with caveats, rebuilding and reparations from both sides. It could pave the way to a better future, it might lead to nothing but it will stop the killing" it's that kind of thing I'm not seeing from anyone calling for hamas surrendering. Has Israel suggested what any of that may look like in practice ? | |||
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"Have war crimes been committed on both sides… absolutely… The abhorrent attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th by Hamas and the IDF response on the general Palestinian population ever since… Collective punishment of a population is a war crime, the blockade of humanitarian aid, food, medicine and fuel was a deliberately cruel act …. We were told it was all smart ammunition at the beginning… targeted, now we find out via US reports that half of it have been dumb bombs Targeting of schools, hospitals, un facilities, journalists If you are moving a population further and further south into a smaller and smaller area, that is cleansing…. You are finally hearing the truth from Israeli politicians, such as the Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom last week who said that the two state solution isn’t on the table! You had a far right Israeli government minister talking last week in front of a map of “greater Israel” which consisted of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and a rather large chunk of Jordan You have Isreal flaunting international law by actively settling people in occupied territories….. And Hamas can surrender and bring an instant end to this, but hey ho let's not state the obvious and easiest solution. I was having this discussion today. What does a hamas surrender actually look like for Israel, and what would the world then look like. We got as far as Israel wanting to take prisoner some key leaders. Probably handing over weapons. But they couldn't take every hamas fighter,surely ? And how would they be confident new generals (or a new party) wouldn't replace what they had taken ? And what with Gaza? How would that look compared to before this war started? That is because you are thinking of surrender in all its form and not the act of simply giving up. I would assume a surrender would come with caveats, rebuilding and reparations from both sides. It could pave the way to a better future, it might lead to nothing but it will stop the killingit's that kind of thing I'm not seeing from anyone calling for hamas surrendering. Has Israel suggested what any of that may look like in practice ? " Of course not, it isn’t on the table | |||
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" 2. Isreal are just as bad as hamas by the needless killing and starvation of innocent civilians Pretty obvious really When you say "Israel", do you mean all citizens? Jewish citizens? A small minority within the country? When you say "Hamas", do you mean all citizens of Gaza, the West Bank, both or neither? Who is as bad as whom? Isreal : govt and armed forces. Hamas: members of hamas terrorist group and their political leadership The rest are victims on all sides. Exception being illegal Isreali settlers killing palisitinian civilians on their own land. " But don't Hamas and the Israeli government enjoy popular support from their respective citizenry (according to recent polls)? Why not blame everyone? | |||
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" Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. Interesting how hamas killing innocent isrealis = bad (and it is! Btw) Isreal forces killing innocent palisitinians = acceptable Both sides should be investigated In time I think you'll find how Isreal has underestimated hamas's resolve too. It's a tragedy. " Perhaps it's Israel who believes in Hamas's resolve and the rest of the world who underestimates it, believing that they will become a peaceful community group of only Israel backs down and gives back land? | |||
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" Too late now but there was a suggestion by hamas that if Isreal gave back the land taken, a truce could be formed. Yitsak rabean also offered a truce before being assassinated. There was a chance back then but not now. More years of bloodshed. I'm sure you don't want that. Your talking fantasy but a realistic grounded solution is needed " No. That was their rival, Fatah (PLO). Hamas killed them when they took over Gaza. Hamas rejects compromise, except as a stepping stone to conquering all of Israel. Read their charter. | |||
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" 2. Isreal are just as bad as hamas by the needless killing and starvation of innocent civilians Pretty obvious really When you say "Israel", do you mean all citizens? Jewish citizens? A small minority within the country? When you say "Hamas", do you mean all citizens of Gaza, the West Bank, both or neither? Who is as bad as whom? Isreal : govt and armed forces. Hamas: members of hamas terrorist group and their political leadership The rest are victims on all sides. Exception being illegal Isreali settlers killing palisitinian civilians on their own land. But don't Hamas and the Israeli government enjoy popular support from their respective citizenry (according to recent polls)? Why not blame everyone?" When did Gaza last have a free and fair election? I’m not convinced I’d trust any polling conducted there. People in Western “democracies” tell pollsters what they want to hear so one can imagine what it’s like in Gaza. | |||
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" Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. Interesting how hamas killing innocent isrealis = bad (and it is! Btw) Isreal forces killing innocent palisitinians = acceptable Both sides should be investigated In time I think you'll find how Isreal has underestimated hamas's resolve too. It's a tragedy. " I don't believe I've said Hamas bad, Israel good anywhere in any of my posts. | |||
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" When did Gaza last have a free and fair election? I’m not convinced I’d trust any polling conducted there. People in Western “democracies” tell pollsters what they want to hear so one can imagine what it’s like in Gaza." You're correct in that it's very, very complicated. Most of Israel rallied behind the otherwise (fairly) unpopular Bibi after October 7th, and polling in Gaza and the West Bank (which is much more free) shows 70% support for Hamas and armed resistance. However, both of these are subject to huge error in this period of propaganda. Nevertheless, neither group mentioned by the previous poster is a small and isolated fringe. So it's interesting to see how far we can attribute the "blame". | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve." And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. " Difference being if your an isreali hostage waving a white flag , the IDF will think your a worthless unarmed palisitinian civilian and kill you anyway out of revenge. | |||
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" Too late now but there was a suggestion by hamas that if Isreal gave back the land taken, a truce could be formed. Yitsak rabean also offered a truce before being assassinated. There was a chance back then but not now. More years of bloodshed. I'm sure you don't want that. Your talking fantasy but a realistic grounded solution is needed No. That was their rival, Fatah (PLO). Hamas killed them when they took over Gaza. Hamas rejects compromise, except as a stepping stone to conquering all of Israel. Read their charter." Yeah I have. | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. Difference being if your an isreali hostage waving a white flag , the IDF will think your a worthless unarmed palisitinian civilian and kill you anyway out of revenge. " The difference here is the Israeli government admitted their armed forces made a terrible mistake and e soldiers concerned were not following the standards set out to them. Were as Hamas celebrated their butchery | |||
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" Too late now but there was a suggestion by hamas that if Isreal gave back the land taken, a truce could be formed. Yitsak rabean also offered a truce before being assassinated. There was a chance back then but not now. More years of bloodshed. I'm sure you don't want that. Your talking fantasy but a realistic grounded solution is needed No. That was their rival, Fatah (PLO). Hamas killed them when they took over Gaza. Hamas rejects compromise, except as a stepping stone to conquering all of Israel. Read their charter." Yes. Hamas also offered a truce https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna24235665 | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. Difference being if your an isreali hostage waving a white flag , the IDF will think your a worthless unarmed palisitinian civilian and kill you anyway out of revenge. The difference here is the Israeli government admitted their armed forces made a terrible mistake and e soldiers concerned were not following the standards set out to them. Were as Hamas celebrated their butchery" Yes.. bu the point being the actual actions rather than who admitted what.. or not. A "terrible mistake" if o enwas shot dead.. But it wasn't one or even two! It was three! Having commanders reminding shooting civilians is wrong was incredible. I had it drummed into me.about it and the mark of Cain would be on us if we did that | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. Difference being if your an isreali hostage waving a white flag , the IDF will think your a worthless unarmed palisitinian civilian and kill you anyway out of revenge. The difference here is the Israeli government admitted their armed forces made a terrible mistake and e soldiers concerned were not following the standards set out to them. Were as Hamas celebrated their butchery" | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. Difference being if your an isreali hostage waving a white flag , the IDF will think your a worthless unarmed palisitinian civilian and kill you anyway out of revenge. The difference here is the Israeli government admitted their armed forces made a terrible mistake and e soldiers concerned were not following the standards set out to them. Were as Hamas celebrated their butchery "I'm sorry to ask this but does that justify killing palisitinian children, old people and other noncombatants?!  | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack? You say for the interest of balanced discussion, and then go and inflate the figure of Israelis killed on October the 7th. The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Is the figure of 20,000 Palestinian deaths accurate? Because all im seeing seeing here is people calling out one side for xyz and failing to do the same for the other side. That's the balance I'd like. These discussions lack balance and experience of living in that part of the world? " Who knows if the figures are accurate. Hammas says 19,000+, Israel says that thats a exaggeration and its less. The Americans are saying they think the figures are pretty accurate. They reckon once all the bodies from under the ruble are collected it will be more than this figure. But if you take the figure of 29,000 bombs have been dropped on Gaza. According to the Americans 45-60% of them have been dumb bombs ie. Not the smart precision guided weapons. Then a figure of 3 bombs to 2 kills, in a high density area like Gaza, seems a very low kill ratio. Are the weapons that bad or Israeli aim very poor..? | |||
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" Too late now but there was a suggestion by hamas that if Isreal gave back the land taken, a truce could be formed. Yitsak rabean also offered a truce before being assassinated. There was a chance back then but not now. More years of bloodshed. I'm sure you don't want that. Your talking fantasy but a realistic grounded solution is needed No. That was their rival, Fatah (PLO). Hamas killed them when they took over Gaza. Hamas rejects compromise, except as a stepping stone to conquering all of Israel. Read their charter. Yeah I have. " Then... you know that they have no intention of compromise or a two state solution, right? Absolutely none. | |||
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" Hamas also offered a truce https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna24235665 " They have offered to stop temporarily, until they rearm and regroup, yes. As per their charter. | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack? You say for the interest of balanced discussion, and then go and inflate the figure of Israelis killed on October the 7th. The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Is the figure of 20,000 Palestinian deaths accurate? Because all im seeing seeing here is people calling out one side for xyz and failing to do the same for the other side. That's the balance I'd like. These discussions lack balance and experience of living in that part of the world? Who knows if the figures are accurate. Hammas says 19,000+, Israel says that thats a exaggeration and its less. The Americans are saying they think the figures are pretty accurate. They reckon once all the bodies from under the ruble are collected it will be more than this figure. But if you take the figure of 29,000 bombs have been dropped on Gaza. According to the Americans 45-60% of them have been dumb bombs ie. Not the smart precision guided weapons. Then a figure of 3 bombs to 2 kills, in a high density area like Gaza, seems a very low kill ratio. Are the weapons that bad or Israeli aim very poor..?" As you've pointed out, many of the bombs are non guided, so aim has very little to do with it. | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack? You say for the interest of balanced discussion, and then go and inflate the figure of Israelis killed on October the 7th. The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Is the figure of 20,000 Palestinian deaths accurate? Because all im seeing seeing here is people calling out one side for xyz and failing to do the same for the other side. That's the balance I'd like. These discussions lack balance and experience of living in that part of the world? Who knows if the figures are accurate. Hammas says 19,000+, Israel says that thats a exaggeration and its less. The Americans are saying they think the figures are pretty accurate. They reckon once all the bodies from under the ruble are collected it will be more than this figure. But if you take the figure of 29,000 bombs have been dropped on Gaza. According to the Americans 45-60% of them have been dumb bombs ie. Not the smart precision guided weapons. Then a figure of 3 bombs to 2 kills, in a high density area like Gaza, seems a very low kill ratio. Are the weapons that bad or Israeli aim very poor..? As you've pointed out, many of the bombs are non guided, so aim has very little to do with it." Launching bombs without any aim into the most densely populated part of the planet doesn't seem like something we should be celebrating. | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. Difference being if your an isreali hostage waving a white flag , the IDF will think your a worthless unarmed palisitinian civilian and kill you anyway out of revenge. The difference here is the Israeli government admitted their armed forces made a terrible mistake and e soldiers concerned were not following the standards set out to them. Were as Hamas celebrated their butchery
I'm sorry to ask this but does that justify killing palisitinian children, old people and other noncombatants?! "You've completely avoided the accountability of hamas terrorists, and you expect people to answer why hamis have brought death amongst Palestinians by hiding amongst them like the cowards they are. | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack? You say for the interest of balanced discussion, and then go and inflate the figure of Israelis killed on October the 7th. The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Is the figure of 20,000 Palestinian deaths accurate? Because all im seeing seeing here is people calling out one side for xyz and failing to do the same for the other side. That's the balance I'd like. These discussions lack balance and experience of living in that part of the world? Who knows if the figures are accurate. Hammas says 19,000+, Israel says that thats a exaggeration and its less. The Americans are saying they think the figures are pretty accurate. They reckon once all the bodies from under the ruble are collected it will be more than this figure. But if you take the figure of 29,000 bombs have been dropped on Gaza. According to the Americans 45-60% of them have been dumb bombs ie. Not the smart precision guided weapons. Then a figure of 3 bombs to 2 kills, in a high density area like Gaza, seems a very low kill ratio. Are the weapons that bad or Israeli aim very poor..? As you've pointed out, many of the bombs are non guided, so aim has very little to do with it." The Americans are asking why they are using dumb bombs when they are being supplied with plenty of precision guided weapons. Especially in such a densely populated area. You still have to try and hit a target area even if you are dropping dumb bombs. WW2 pilots didn't just close their eyes and drop them wherever. | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. Difference being if your an isreali hostage waving a white flag , the IDF will think your a worthless unarmed palisitinian civilian and kill you anyway out of revenge. The difference here is the Israeli government admitted their armed forces made a terrible mistake and e soldiers concerned were not following the standards set out to them. Were as Hamas celebrated their butchery
I'm sorry to ask this but does that justify killing palisitinian children, old people and other noncombatants?!
You've completely avoided the accountability of hamas terrorists, and you expect people to answer why hamis have brought death amongst Palestinians by hiding amongst them like the cowards they are.
"That's because I've not gone into the petty not picking to justify killing non-combstents! Yea hiding behind civilians is cowardly, and what your saying appears to justify killing civilians. Isreal is s sovereign country and should have higher morals but they don't. They're just as culpable as hamas | |||
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" You've completely avoided the accountability of hamas terrorists, and you expect people to answer why hamis have brought death amongst Palestinians by hiding amongst them like the cowards they are. " The isreali forces have killed more civilians in 3 months then the Americans killed in Afghanistan in 20 years. Perhaps you can justify that. | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack? You say for the interest of balanced discussion, and then go and inflate the figure of Israelis killed on October the 7th. The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Is the figure of 20,000 Palestinian deaths accurate? Because all im seeing seeing here is people calling out one side for xyz and failing to do the same for the other side. That's the balance I'd like. These discussions lack balance and experience of living in that part of the world? Who knows if the figures are accurate. Hammas says 19,000+, Israel says that thats a exaggeration and its less. The Americans are saying they think the figures are pretty accurate. They reckon once all the bodies from under the ruble are collected it will be more than this figure. But if you take the figure of 29,000 bombs have been dropped on Gaza. According to the Americans 45-60% of them have been dumb bombs ie. Not the smart precision guided weapons. Then a figure of 3 bombs to 2 kills, in a high density area like Gaza, seems a very low kill ratio. Are the weapons that bad or Israeli aim very poor..? As you've pointed out, many of the bombs are non guided, so aim has very little to do with it. Launching bombs without any aim into the most densely populated part of the planet doesn't seem like something we should be celebrating. " Do you see me celebrating?  | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack? You say for the interest of balanced discussion, and then go and inflate the figure of Israelis killed on October the 7th. The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Is the figure of 20,000 Palestinian deaths accurate? Because all im seeing seeing here is people calling out one side for xyz and failing to do the same for the other side. That's the balance I'd like. These discussions lack balance and experience of living in that part of the world? Who knows if the figures are accurate. Hammas says 19,000+, Israel says that thats a exaggeration and its less. The Americans are saying they think the figures are pretty accurate. They reckon once all the bodies from under the ruble are collected it will be more than this figure. But if you take the figure of 29,000 bombs have been dropped on Gaza. According to the Americans 45-60% of them have been dumb bombs ie. Not the smart precision guided weapons. Then a figure of 3 bombs to 2 kills, in a high density area like Gaza, seems a very low kill ratio. Are the weapons that bad or Israeli aim very poor..? As you've pointed out, many of the bombs are non guided, so aim has very little to do with it. The Americans are asking why they are using dumb bombs when they are being supplied with plenty of precision guided weapons. Especially in such a densely populated area. You still have to try and hit a target area even if you are dropping dumb bombs. WW2 pilots didn't just close their eyes and drop them wherever. " If you keep giving me £20 it's up to me how I spend it. Don't what I'm spending it on, stop giving it to me. WW2 pilots didn't drop bombs wherever? The residents of Dresden disagree. Utter nonsense. Carpet bombing has been going on since bombs were invented. | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. Difference being if your an isreali hostage waving a white flag , the IDF will think your a worthless unarmed palisitinian civilian and kill you anyway out of revenge. The difference here is the Israeli government admitted their armed forces made a terrible mistake and e soldiers concerned were not following the standards set out to them. Were as Hamas celebrated their butchery
I'm sorry to ask this but does that justify killing palisitinian children, old people and other noncombatants?!
You've completely avoided the accountability of hamas terrorists, and you expect people to answer why hamis have brought death amongst Palestinians by hiding amongst them like the cowards they are.
That's because I've not gone into the petty not picking to justify killing non-combstents!
Yea hiding behind civilians is cowardly, and what your saying appears to justify killing civilians.
Isreal is s sovereign country and should have higher morals but they don't. They're just as culpable as hamas"You are still refusing to put the accountability of cowardly and evil actions of hamas, on hamas. It is hamas who hides amongst the innocent people who are then caught up in the war. Hamas started this particular war, hamas are still fighting this particular war, and you want Israel to leave them alone? What would be the point of that, it is similar to walking half way to a location and then turning back because you think it is to far way. Hamas should do the right thing and surrender to stop the bloodshed it has started, but they wont and you will still not hold them accountable. | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. Difference being if your an isreali hostage waving a white flag , the IDF will think your a worthless unarmed palisitinian civilian and kill you anyway out of revenge. The difference here is the Israeli government admitted their armed forces made a terrible mistake and e soldiers concerned were not following the standards set out to them. Were as Hamas celebrated their butchery
I'm sorry to ask this but does that justify killing palisitinian children, old people and other noncombatants?!
You've completely avoided the accountability of hamas terrorists, and you expect people to answer why hamis have brought death amongst Palestinians by hiding amongst them like the cowards they are.
That's because I've not gone into the petty not picking to justify killing non-combstents!
Yea hiding behind civilians is cowardly, and what your saying appears to justify killing civilians.
Isreal is s sovereign country and should have higher morals but they don't. They're just as culpable as hamas
You are still refusing to put the accountability of cowardly and evil actions of hamas, on hamas.
It is hamas who hides amongst the innocent people who are then caught up in the war.
Hamas started this particular war, hamas are still fighting this particular war, and you want Israel to leave them alone?
What would be the point of that, it is similar to walking half way to a location and then turning back because you think it is to far way.
Hamas should do the right thing and surrender to stop the bloodshed it has started, but they wont and you will still not hold them accountable.
"Are Hamas responsible for the IDF placing snipers aiming at a Christian church full of elderly people seeking sanctuary Just asking for the pope…… | |||
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"Hard to pick a side here, 1200 civilians murdered by Hamas vs 20,000 bombed to death by IDF and another 30,000 injured. Retaliation is not self defence. Self defence to threat. Once the threat has been removed or no longer exists, then it would be retaliation. If Hamas surrender, it would bring an end to the threat, until that happens it will continue This. ^ I suggest someone somewhere has forgotten just how ruthless Israel can be when it's threatened. I know up to a few years ago, at the height of airline hijacking, no Israeli flight had ever been targeted. Remember the Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes? Every single one of the terrorists tracked down and dealt with. Fuck with Israel at your peril. Hamas seem to have significantly underestimated the Israeli resolve. And Entebbe hostage rescue, probably the most daring and successful hostage rescue in modern times. Where Netanyahu‘s brother was killed. Difference being if your an isreali hostage waving a white flag , the IDF will think your a worthless unarmed palisitinian civilian and kill you anyway out of revenge. The difference here is the Israeli government admitted their armed forces made a terrible mistake and e soldiers concerned were not following the standards set out to them. Were as Hamas celebrated their butchery
I'm sorry to ask this but does that justify killing palisitinian children, old people and other noncombatants?!
You've completely avoided the accountability of hamas terrorists, and you expect people to answer why hamis have brought death amongst Palestinians by hiding amongst them like the cowards they are.
That's because I've not gone into the petty not picking to justify killing non-combstents!
Yea hiding behind civilians is cowardly, and what your saying appears to justify killing civilians.
Isreal is s sovereign country and should have higher morals but they don't. They're just as culpable as hamas
You are still refusing to put the accountability of cowardly and evil actions of hamas, on hamas.
It is hamas who hides amongst the innocent people who are then caught up in the war.
Hamas started this particular war, hamas are still fighting this particular war, and you want Israel to leave them alone?
What would be the point of that, it is similar to walking half way to a location and then turning back because you think it is to far way.
Hamas should do the right thing and surrender to stop the bloodshed it has started, but they wont and you will still not hold them accountable.
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" It is hamas who hides amongst the innocent people who are then caught up in the war. Hamas started this particular war, hamas are still fighting this particular war, and you want Israel to leave them alone? What would be the point of that, it is similar to walking half way to a location and then turning back because you think it is to far way. Hamas should do the right thing and surrender to stop the bloodshed it has started, but they wont and you will still not hold them accountable. " You openly admit that killing non-combatents is okay then? Isreal created hamas and only Isreal can neutralise hamas If you read my earlier posts, both hamas and isreali forces are both committing atrocities. I agree with you: Hamas are deliberately putting their own non-combatents in danger which is appalling. And the Isreali forces have caused heavy casualties by using excessive force with no regard for civilians which is just as appalling You say I'm thinking I state hamas should be left alone That's nonsense. Isreal created hamas through 70 years of oppression and illegal settlements and can kill as many hamas fighters but they will fail. You can never kill an ideology! The only way hamas can be neutralised is by taking the reason they exist away. * Give the illegal occupied land back from 1967(I think) * Stop oppressing and killing palisitinians If only bloodthirsty people like yourself coul see that.. but alas, here we are arguing 
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack? You say for the interest of balanced discussion, and then go and inflate the figure of Israelis killed on October the 7th. The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Is the figure of 20,000 Palestinian deaths accurate? Because all im seeing seeing here is people calling out one side for xyz and failing to do the same for the other side. That's the balance I'd like. These discussions lack balance and experience of living in that part of the world? Who knows if the figures are accurate. Hammas says 19,000+, Israel says that thats a exaggeration and its less. The Americans are saying they think the figures are pretty accurate. They reckon once all the bodies from under the ruble are collected it will be more than this figure. But if you take the figure of 29,000 bombs have been dropped on Gaza. According to the Americans 45-60% of them have been dumb bombs ie. Not the smart precision guided weapons. Then a figure of 3 bombs to 2 kills, in a high density area like Gaza, seems a very low kill ratio. Are the weapons that bad or Israeli aim very poor..? As you've pointed out, many of the bombs are non guided, so aim has very little to do with it. The Americans are asking why they are using dumb bombs when they are being supplied with plenty of precision guided weapons. Especially in such a densely populated area. You still have to try and hit a target area even if you are dropping dumb bombs. WW2 pilots didn't just close their eyes and drop them wherever. If you keep giving me £20 it's up to me how I spend it. Don't what I'm spending it on, stop giving it to me. WW2 pilots didn't drop bombs wherever? The residents of Dresden disagree. Utter nonsense. Carpet bombing has been going on since bombs were invented. " Thats because Dresden was the target. The orders were to destroy Dresden. Thats why special incendiary bombs were used on Dresden and Hamburg, to basically destroy the whole cities in a inferno of fire. It wasn't that they were aiming for specific targets. You seem to be jumping arguments constantly from 1,800 Israelis killed on October the 7th to questioning the amount of Palestinians killed and then something else. I leave you to your superior knowledge on the subject since my nonsense is distracting you. | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? For the purpose of balanced discussion, let's say your number is correct. Where do you stand on the thousands of people murdered by Hamas in terrorist attacks all over the world, and in particular the 1800 innocent Israelis killed in their 7th October attack? You say for the interest of balanced discussion, and then go and inflate the figure of Israelis killed on October the 7th. The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Is the figure of 20,000 Palestinian deaths accurate? Because all im seeing seeing here is people calling out one side for xyz and failing to do the same for the other side. That's the balance I'd like. These discussions lack balance and experience of living in that part of the world? Who knows if the figures are accurate. Hammas says 19,000+, Israel says that thats a exaggeration and its less. The Americans are saying they think the figures are pretty accurate. They reckon once all the bodies from under the ruble are collected it will be more than this figure. But if you take the figure of 29,000 bombs have been dropped on Gaza. According to the Americans 45-60% of them have been dumb bombs ie. Not the smart precision guided weapons. Then a figure of 3 bombs to 2 kills, in a high density area like Gaza, seems a very low kill ratio. Are the weapons that bad or Israeli aim very poor..? As you've pointed out, many of the bombs are non guided, so aim has very little to do with it. The Americans are asking why they are using dumb bombs when they are being supplied with plenty of precision guided weapons. Especially in such a densely populated area. You still have to try and hit a target area even if you are dropping dumb bombs. WW2 pilots didn't just close their eyes and drop them wherever. If you keep giving me £20 it's up to me how I spend it. Don't what I'm spending it on, stop giving it to me. WW2 pilots didn't drop bombs wherever? The residents of Dresden disagree. Utter nonsense. Carpet bombing has been going on since bombs were invented. Thats because Dresden was the target. The orders were to destroy Dresden. Thats why special incendiary bombs were used on Dresden and Hamburg, to basically destroy the whole cities in a inferno of fire. It wasn't that they were aiming for specific targets. You seem to be jumping arguments constantly from 1,800 Israelis killed on October the 7th to questioning the amount of Palestinians killed and then something else. I leave you to your superior knowledge on the subject since my nonsense is distracting you." It probably looks like I'm jumping subjects because I'm replying to your comments. It's possible that I do know more about the region, it's history and politics than a lot of people. | |||
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" It is hamas who hides amongst the innocent people who are then caught up in the war. Hamas started this particular war, hamas are still fighting this particular war, and you want Israel to leave them alone? What would be the point of that, it is similar to walking half way to a location and then turning back because you think it is to far way. Hamas should do the right thing and surrender to stop the bloodshed it has started, but they wont and you will still not hold them accountable. You openly admit that killing non-combatents is okay then? Isreal created hamas and only Isreal can neutralise hamas If you read my earlier posts, both hamas and isreali forces are both committing atrocities. I agree with you: Hamas are deliberately putting their own non-combatents in danger which is appalling. And the Isreali forces have caused heavy casualties by using excessive force with no regard for civilians which is just as appalling You say I'm thinking I state hamas should be left alone That's nonsense. Isreal created hamas through 70 years of oppression and illegal settlements and can kill as many hamas fighters but they will fail. You can never kill an ideology! The only way hamas can be neutralised is by taking the reason they exist away. * Give the illegal occupied land back from 1967(I think) * Stop oppressing and killing palisitinians If only bloodthirsty people like yourself coul see that.. but alas, here we are arguing
"Bloodthirsty people like me? WTF do you know about me, other than I have a different view to you! IDF and Hamas are at war, and as long as hamas cower behind their human shields, innocent people will be killed. Your answer, give in to terrorist organisations and let them take what they want by butchering people, or put people between them and danger, and you call me bloodthirsty. | |||
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" It is hamas who hides amongst the innocent people who are then caught up in the war. Hamas started this particular war, hamas are still fighting this particular war, and you want Israel to leave them alone? What would be the point of that, it is similar to walking half way to a location and then turning back because you think it is to far way. Hamas should do the right thing and surrender to stop the bloodshed it has started, but they wont and you will still not hold them accountable. You openly admit that killing non-combatents is okay then? Isreal created hamas and only Isreal can neutralise hamas If you read my earlier posts, both hamas and isreali forces are both committing atrocities. I agree with you: Hamas are deliberately putting their own non-combatents in danger which is appalling. And the Isreali forces have caused heavy casualties by using excessive force with no regard for civilians which is just as appalling You say I'm thinking I state hamas should be left alone That's nonsense. Isreal created hamas through 70 years of oppression and illegal settlements and can kill as many hamas fighters but they will fail. You can never kill an ideology! The only way hamas can be neutralised is by taking the reason they exist away. * Give the illegal occupied land back from 1967(I think) * Stop oppressing and killing palisitinians If only bloodthirsty people like yourself coul see that.. but alas, here we are arguing
Bloodthirsty people like me? WTF do you know about me, other than I have a different view to you!
IDF and Hamas are at war, and as long as hamas cower behind their human shields, innocent people will be killed.
Your answer, give in to terrorist organisations and let them take what they want by butchering people, or put people between them and danger, and you call me bloodthirsty.
"I noticed the irony in that too. | |||
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" Bloodthirsty people like me? WTF do you know about me, other than I have a different view to you! IDF and Hamas are at war, and as long as hamas cower behind their human shields, innocent people will be killed. Your answer, give in to terrorist organisations and let them take what they want by butchering people, or put people between them and danger, and you call me bloodthirsty. " Isreal created hamas by oppression and land grabbing The only only way the cycle of violence can end is by Isreal reversing the conditions that created hamas. Your way us to perpetuate decades of oppression and war by Isreal and it simply has not worked had it! you don't realise it but you are both blind and bloodthirsty | |||
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" It is hamas who hides amongst the innocent people who are then caught up in the war. Hamas started this particular war, hamas are still fighting this particular war, and you want Israel to leave them alone? What would be the point of that, it is similar to walking half way to a location and then turning back because you think it is to far way. Hamas should do the right thing and surrender to stop the bloodshed it has started, but they wont and you will still not hold them accountable. You openly admit that killing non-combatents is okay then? Isreal created hamas and only Isreal can neutralise hamas If you read my earlier posts, both hamas and isreali forces are both committing atrocities. I agree with you: Hamas are deliberately putting their own non-combatents in danger which is appalling. And the Isreali forces have caused heavy casualties by using excessive force with no regard for civilians which is just as appalling You say I'm thinking I state hamas should be left alone That's nonsense. Isreal created hamas through 70 years of oppression and illegal settlements and can kill as many hamas fighters but they will fail. You can never kill an ideology! The only way hamas can be neutralised is by taking the reason they exist away. * Give the illegal occupied land back from 1967(I think) * Stop oppressing and killing palisitinians If only bloodthirsty people like yourself coul see that.. but alas, here we are arguing
Bloodthirsty people like me? WTF do you know about me, other than I have a different view to you!
IDF and Hamas are at war, and as long as hamas cower behind their human shields, innocent people will be killed.
Your answer, give in to terrorist organisations and let them take what they want by butchering people, or put people between them and danger, and you call me bloodthirsty.
"thats what benny nutty yahoo wants the Palestinians to do give in to people stealing there land and building on it, while there are settlements on there land they wont stop fighting and nor should they | |||
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" Bloodthirsty people like me? WTF do you know about me, other than I have a different view to you! IDF and Hamas are at war, and as long as hamas cower behind their human shields, innocent people will be killed. Your answer, give in to terrorist organisations and let them take what they want by butchering people, or put people between them and danger, and you call me bloodthirsty. Isreal created hamas by oppression and land grabbing The only only way the cycle of violence can end is by Isreal reversing the conditions that created hamas. Your way us to perpetuate decades of oppression and war by Isreal and it simply has not worked had it! you don't realise it but you are both blind and bloodthirsty " We’ve been around this far to many times now, you’ve demonstrated a lack of understanding and that is fine | |||
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"Again.. can I ask my question Is it Hamas fault that the IDF placed snipers aimed at a Christian church firing at elderly people sheltering there… Just asking again for the pope…… (P.s I am going to believe I’ll have 1 of the 2 bog standard excuses.. it will either be “Hamas are hiding behind human shields… “… or “there is ruddy great tunnel underneath!) " My understanding was it was not just a standalone church, but a compound, ie a safe haven for Christians and known to the IDF who had been warned when bombing got too close. Major fuck up by the IDF here. | |||
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" Bloodthirsty people like me? WTF do you know about me, other than I have a different view to you! IDF and Hamas are at war, and as long as hamas cower behind their human shields, innocent people will be killed. Your answer, give in to terrorist organisations and let them take what they want by butchering people, or put people between them and danger, and you call me bloodthirsty. Isreal created hamas by oppression and land grabbing The only only way the cycle of violence can end is by Isreal reversing the conditions that created hamas. Your way us to perpetuate decades of oppression and war by Isreal and it simply has not worked had it! you don't realise it but you are both blind and bloodthirsty We’ve been around this far to many times now, you’ve demonstrated a lack of understanding and that is fine" No. You've been around this many times. You don't understand that regardless of what hamas or any other terrorist organisation does. It does not condone mass killing of civilians in retaliation!. You don't understand that, and it's not fine that you don't | |||
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" Bloodthirsty people like me? WTF do you know about me, other than I have a different view to you! IDF and Hamas are at war, and as long as hamas cower behind their human shields, innocent people will be killed. Your answer, give in to terrorist organisations and let them take what they want by butchering people, or put people between them and danger, and you call me bloodthirsty. Isreal created hamas by oppression and land grabbing The only only way the cycle of violence can end is by Isreal reversing the conditions that created hamas. Your way us to perpetuate decades of oppression and war by Isreal and it simply has not worked had it! you don't realise it but you are both blind and bloodthirsty We’ve been around this far to many times now, you’ve demonstrated a lack of understanding and that is fine No. You've been around this many times. You don't understand that regardless of what hamas or any other terrorist organisation does. It does not condone mass killing of civilians in retaliation!. You don't understand that, and it's not fine that you don't " Hammas does condone mass killing of civilians though. (I'm not referring to retaliation here). The 7th October attack demonstrates that absolutely Hammas is happy to kill civilians. As well as the other terrorist attacks it's carried out throughout the world. | |||
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" Bloodthirsty people like me? WTF do you know about me, other than I have a different view to you! IDF and Hamas are at war, and as long as hamas cower behind their human shields, innocent people will be killed. Your answer, give in to terrorist organisations and let them take what they want by butchering people, or put people between them and danger, and you call me bloodthirsty. Isreal created hamas by oppression and land grabbing The only only way the cycle of violence can end is by Isreal reversing the conditions that created hamas. Your way us to perpetuate decades of oppression and war by Isreal and it simply has not worked had it! you don't realise it but you are both blind and bloodthirsty We’ve been around this far to many times now, you’ve demonstrated a lack of understanding and that is fine No. You've been around this many times. You don't understand that regardless of what hamas or any other terrorist organisation does. It does not condone mass killing of civilians in retaliation!. You don't understand that, and it's not fine that you don't " I have nothing else to say to you on this subject other than, Hamas should surrender and stop being cowards, look after their own but they wont and they don't give a damn. But you keep making excuses for them | |||
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"This thread is starting to sound like “my murderers are not as bad as your murderers!” Sitting on the sidelines watching most of the Israel/Hamas threads pan out and I find a lot of the sentiment pretty awful as some posters contort themselves in an effort to try and justify the killing of children and innocent civilians. What Hamas did was fucking disgusting. What Israel is doing is fucking disgusting. I think some of you need to take a break from posting and give your heads a wobble." | |||
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" Bloodthirsty people like me? WTF do you know about me, other than I have a different view to you! IDF and Hamas are at war, and as long as hamas cower behind their human shields, innocent people will be killed. Your answer, give in to terrorist organisations and let them take what they want by butchering people, or put people between them and danger, and you call me bloodthirsty. Isreal created hamas by oppression and land grabbing The only only way the cycle of violence can end is by Isreal reversing the conditions that created hamas. Your way us to perpetuate decades of oppression and war by Isreal and it simply has not worked had it! you don't realise it but you are both blind and bloodthirsty We’ve been around this far to many times now, you’ve demonstrated a lack of understanding and that is fine No. You've been around this many times. You don't understand that regardless of what hamas or any other terrorist organisation does. It does not condone mass killing of civilians in retaliation!. You don't understand that, and it's not fine that you don't I have nothing else to say to you on this subject other than, Hamas should surrender and stop being cowards, look after their own but they wont and they don't give a damn. But you keep making excuses for them "Obviously some people support genocide. Thankfully I'm not alone in condeming it. I see you deliberately ignore my condemnation of hamas, or Fabio's question posted here. some people are blindly one sided. | |||
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"I absolutely condemn the Oct attacks by hamas and they are without doubt a vile terrorist organisation. However the Isrealis have tormented the Palestinians for 70 years and are without doubt the major protagonists in the conflict. In the last 15 years 95 per cent of civilian deaths have been Palestinians. 99.74 Palestinian detainees are convicted by Isreali kangaroo courts. 80 per cent of gazan children suffer deep psychological trauma due to constant IsraelI bombardment. Israel regularly pokes the hornets nest , strategically and tactically to inflame and exacerbate in order to keep the blood money coming in from u.s. congress and the powerful Jewish lobby. The main industry in Isreal is war. There is also credible evidence that Netanyahu and his disgusting cohorts knew in advance that the attack was imminent. I don't know if that is true but if so the word evil does not suffice. There are reports of the idf being instructed to stand down. If there is one redeeming light amongst the carnage it is that most " thinking and ethical " people no longer believe the smoke and mirror tactics and bullshit propaganda spouted by Isreal . Except those wearing blinkers or the most gullible. The Isreali apologists on here , thank you for reinforcing my ethical and intellectual superiority . Not one empathetic message toward the terrible plight of the gazan people. Also for the record I support Isreals right to defend itself and its right to exist. If you think supporting a terrorist group who murder innocent people all over the world gives you moral superiority I'd suggest your mistaken. You've presented statements as fact, then stated you don't know if they're true. If you don't know something is true, perhaps don't state it as fact, better still, leave it out altogether. I have every sympathy for the innocent people of Gaza as does every right minded person. I have little sympathy for Hamas. I've not seen you express any sympathy for the deaths of innocent Israelis killed in the 7th October. Why? Your moral high ground seems quite slippery on one side of the hill." Where does it say I support hamas ? Can you read? I start with a condemnation of hamas. Look up the stats I use . | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that " Yep  | |||
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" We’ve been around this far to many times now, you’ve demonstrated a lack of understanding and that is fine " Says the guy who doubles down on isreali oppression and war that's failed to work in decades.. | |||
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" Says the guy who doubles down on isreali oppression and war that's failed to work in decades.. "Isn't Israel simply existing proof of something working? Everyone around them wants to obliterate them, but they still exist, right? | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that " Ukraine doesn't have the same budget for arms purchases as Israel does. | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that Ukraine doesn't have the same budget for arms purchases as Israel does. " Additionally, Ukraine is up against an enemy who, militarily, should eventually win. And that enemy is Russia, so nobody wants to start with them directly, however much they morally support Ukraine. When geopolitics meets reality. | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that Ukraine doesn't have the same budget for arms purchases as Israel does. Additionally, Ukraine is up against an enemy who, militarily, should eventually win. And that enemy is Russia, so nobody wants to start with them directly, however much they morally support Ukraine. When geopolitics meets reality." True. There are many factors. I doubt Ukrainian PACs donated as much as Israeli supporting PACs did to Bidens election campaigns (since 1990 $4.2 mil). | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that Ukraine doesn't have the same budget for arms purchases as Israel does. Additionally, Ukraine is up against an enemy who, militarily, should eventually win. And that enemy is Russia, so nobody wants to start with them directly, however much they morally support Ukraine. When geopolitics meets reality. True. There are many factors. I doubt Ukrainian PACs donated as much as Israeli supporting PACs did to Bidens election campaigns (since 1990 $4.2 mil)." The trouble with US funding for Ukraine is not with Joe Biden, it's with the republicans. Who support Israel without PACs. | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that Ukraine doesn't have the same budget for arms purchases as Israel does. " And? | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that Ukraine doesn't have the same budget for arms purchases as Israel does. And? " and the rest of the world will only give the freebies out why they have old stock knocking around, once thats gone they will want to see the colour of ukraines money. Cant pay then jog on | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that Ukraine doesn't have the same budget for arms purchases as Israel does. And? " So that's why the countries with arms industries lost interest in supporting Ukraine. More $$$ to be made supporting Israel. | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that Ukraine doesn't have the same budget for arms purchases as Israel does. And? and the rest of the world will only give the freebies out why they have old stock knocking around, once thats gone they will want to see the colour of ukraines money. Cant pay then jog on"
It's not rocket science. | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that Ukraine doesn't have the same budget for arms purchases as Israel does. And? So that's why the countries with arms industries lost interest in supporting Ukraine. More $$$ to be made supporting Israel. " Ukraine received 75b from the US in 2022. Let's see what 2023 totals. | |||
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"Wasn't there unshakable support for Ukraine? Good luck with that Ukraine doesn't have the same budget for arms purchases as Israel does. And? and the rest of the world will only give the freebies out why they have old stock knocking around, once thats gone they will want to see the colour of ukraines money. Cant pay then jog on
It's not rocket science."You can't, or at least I can't, balance Ukrainian lives against US or EU currency. Ever heard of lend lease??? | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? It isn’t murder, it’s war. A war started by Hamas terrorists. Now they are bleating about the consequences. Where do you get your numbers from? Hamas? " War crimes typically happen during wars, whoever 'started' something notionally. Biden has made great things for the US but he's not been asserting enough strict hard lines here | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? It isn’t murder, it’s war. A war started by Hamas terrorists. Now they are bleating about the consequences. Where do you get your numbers from? Hamas? " Actually, the war was instigated by Isreal. 70 years ago by opression, gheto..ising palistine., And in more recent years besieged and also had land illegally occupied by isreal. Isreal play the victim, but cause a lot of their own problems. Given the circumstances I'm not suprised the likes of hamas exists... Even though I disagree with their methods. Interesting parralels between palistine oppressed by Isreal and Ukraine being opressed by Russia.. only the sympathies are reversed... Interesting also how people on here justify genocide when it suits the gepolitical stance. And it's not hamas "bleating" it's the ordinary people caught in the middle that's suffering through no fault of their own | |||
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"Oh.. and btw even the USA has recognised the humanitarian crises some people on here thought was okay for Isreal to subject the palisitinians to." The USA has recognised the humanitarian crises some people on here thought was okay for Hamas terrorists to subject the palisitinians to. There you go, balanced it out, which will not sit well with you | |||
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"Oh.. and btw even the USA has recognised the humanitarian crises some people on here thought was okay for Isreal to subject the palisitinians to. The USA has recognised the humanitarian crises some people on here thought was okay for Hamas terrorists to subject the palisitinians to. There you go, balanced it out, which will not sit well with you" Oh dear.. life must be easier when your a hypocrite | |||
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"Oh.. and btw even the USA has recognised the humanitarian crises some people on here thought was okay for Isreal to subject the palisitinians to. The USA has recognised the humanitarian crises some people on here thought was okay for Hamas terrorists to subject the palisitinians to. There you go, balanced it out, which will not sit well with you Oh dear.. life must be easier when your a hypocrite " I was spot on with it not sitting well with you, I find it so predictable. | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? It isn’t murder, it’s war. A war started by Hamas terrorists. Now they are bleating about the consequences. Where do you get your numbers from? Hamas? Actually, the war was instigated by Isreal. 70 years ago by opression, gheto..ising palistine., And in more recent years besieged and also had land illegally occupied by isreal. Isreal play the victim, but cause a lot of their own problems. Given the circumstances I'm not suprised the likes of hamas exists... Even though I disagree with their methods. Interesting parralels between palistine oppressed by Isreal and Ukraine being opressed by Russia.. only the sympathies are reversed... Interesting also how people on here justify genocide when it suits the gepolitical stance. And it's not hamas "bleating" it's the ordinary people caught in the middle that's suffering through no fault of their own " We can all be selective with history, start and finish as it suits. Your first statement isn't true but it seems to suit your narative. That was just another conflict point in history between Isreael and the islamic world surrounding it. We need to go back a lot further to look at conflict between Israel and todays Palastinians to understand a little bit more and even then 90% of us will still not understand. Israel is and has been a prosperous thorn in contrast to other regimes in this region that have traditionally and historically had internal conflict and fighting and self destabalisation. | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? It isn’t murder, it’s war. A war started by Hamas terrorists. Now they are bleating about the consequences. Where do you get your numbers from? Hamas? Actually, the war was instigated by Isreal. 70 years ago by opression, gheto..ising palistine., And in more recent years besieged and also had land illegally occupied by isreal. Isreal play the victim, but cause a lot of their own problems. Given the circumstances I'm not suprised the likes of hamas exists... Even though I disagree with their methods. Interesting parralels between palistine oppressed by Isreal and Ukraine being opressed by Russia.. only the sympathies are reversed... Interesting also how people on here justify genocide when it suits the gepolitical stance. And it's not hamas "bleating" it's the ordinary people caught in the middle that's suffering through no fault of their own We can all be selective with history, start and finish as it suits. Your first statement isn't true but it seems to suit your narative. That was just another conflict point in history between Isreael and the islamic world surrounding it. We need to go back a lot further to look at conflict between Israel and todays Palastinians to understand a little bit more and even then 90% of us will still not understand. Israel is and has been a prosperous thorn in contrast to other regimes in this region that have traditionally and historically had internal conflict and fighting and self destabalisation." Can you please clarify what you are saying as I am confused... Israel was created in 1947/48 so what do you mean go back further? Israel is prosperous but it not the only successful state in the region (or are you focused on political stability)? | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? The issue is that under international law, and building or land used for military purposes can become a legitimate military target So when we talk about “war crimes” like bombing a hospital, Israel will have intel that the hospital was being used to store military equipment, making it a military target, so not a war crime Hamas is literally stood behind civilians launching rockets at Israel and we’re all meant to get upset when Israel fights back? Get upset with Hamas for their war crimes, I’m pretty sure using civilians as meat shields falls under a war crime somewhere in law " This . | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? The issue is that under international law, and building or land used for military purposes can become a legitimate military target So when we talk about “war crimes” like bombing a hospital, Israel will have intel that the hospital was being used to store military equipment, making it a military target, so not a war crime Hamas is literally stood behind civilians launching rockets at Israel and we’re all meant to get upset when Israel fights back? Get upset with Hamas for their war crimes, I’m pretty sure using civilians as meat shields falls under a war crime somewhere in law This ."I think you'll find the following war crimes are on both sides which you've ahem... "Forgot to mention" also under the Geneva convention... IDF sniper in a Catholic church Shutting off water and electricity to a population Shooting people waving white flags Shooting Christians in a compound Population driven to a famine And that'll be the tip of the iceberg seeing as limited access to journalists But hey.. they're not Ukrainians being killed, they're just a bunch of 20,000 poxy ragheads .. right? | |||
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"Oh.. and btw even the USA has recognised the humanitarian crises some people on here thought was okay for Isreal to subject the palisitinians to." Yes and no… That was a hell of a watered Down worded resolution, to take out the words “unilateral ceasefire” a put in “negotiated cessation of hostilities” and even then the us could not bring themselves to actually vote for it.. they still abstained! It was a canny move of the Russians though to still bring up the original wording as an amendment to make the world see who supported the original (10 for, 1 against (the us) and 4 abstentions) | |||
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"Oh.. and btw even the USA has recognised the humanitarian crises some people on here thought was okay for Isreal to subject the palisitinians to. Yes and no… That was a hell of a watered Down worded resolution, to take out the words “unilateral ceasefire” a put in “negotiated cessation of hostilities” and even then the us could not bring themselves to actually vote for it.. they still abstained! It was a canny move of the Russians though to still bring up the original wording as an amendment to make the world see who supported the original (10 for, 1 against (the us) and 4 abstentions) " Yes but as awful as it sounds and far from ideal, I hope it's better than nothing. | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? The issue is that under international law, and building or land used for military purposes can become a legitimate military target So when we talk about “war crimes” like bombing a hospital, Israel will have intel that the hospital was being used to store military equipment, making it a military target, so not a war crime Hamas is literally stood behind civilians launching rockets at Israel and we’re all meant to get upset when Israel fights back? Get upset with Hamas for their war crimes, I’m pretty sure using civilians as meat shields falls under a war crime somewhere in law This .
I think you'll find the following war crimes are on both sides which you've ahem... "Forgot to mention" also under the Geneva convention...
IDF sniper in a Catholic church
Shutting off water and electricity to a population
Shooting people waving white flags
Shooting Christians in a compound
Population driven to a famine
And that'll be the tip of the iceberg seeing as limited access to journalists
But hey.. they're not Ukrainians being killed, they're just a bunch of 20,000 poxy ragheads .. right? "I wont list the war crimes and pure evil hamas has done, it is well understood by the world. Your support for hamas is shocking. | |||
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" I wont list the war crimes and pure evil hamas has done, it is well understood by the world. Your support for hamas is shocking." I don’t think literally anyone has condoned what Hamas did on October 7th, it was an abhorrent act It’s the absolving of Israel of any wrongdoing blindly afterwards that Is specifically horrifying No one is saying there should be no response, but the response has gone way way way beyond being proportional … There was a list above of all the potential war crimes and breaches of the Geneva convention that Isreal have committed in response (I can actually add a few more examples if you wish) Your response was basically to give them a free pass as say “well shit happens!” … Collectively punishing and starving a population isn’t really “well shit happens!” I remember when the Israeli told people to leave the north for the centre cause they were going to bomb targets… Then they told people to move from the centre to the south and khan younis …. Then they try old people to move further south from khan younis to Rafah… And now they are in Rafah.. they are still bombing the city! It looks like the plan is for them to force Egypt to take them… congratulations on ethnically cleansing the Gaza Strip!!! I just found it funny in the un yesterday when the us once again said they should concentrate on the two state solution… the dirty secret is that the hardliners in the government want as much to do with that as you say Hamas does! You say it’s all about Gaza.. and yet since October 7th Israeli forces have managed to kill 300 people and make life more miserable and tougher for those living in the West Bank…. So not just about Gaza then! | |||
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" I wont list the war crimes and pure evil hamas has done, it is well understood by the world. Your support for hamas is shocking. I don’t think literally anyone has condoned what Hamas did on October 7th, it was an abhorrent act It’s the absolving of Israel of any wrongdoing blindly afterwards that Is specifically horrifying No one is saying there should be no response, but the response has gone way way way beyond being proportional … There was a list above of all the potential war crimes and breaches of the Geneva convention that Isreal have committed in response (I can actually add a few more examples if you wish) Your response was basically to give them a free pass as say “well shit happens!” … Collectively punishing and starving a population isn’t really “well shit happens!” I remember when the Israeli told people to leave the north for the centre cause they were going to bomb targets… Then they told people to move from the centre to the south and khan younis …. Then they try old people to move further south from khan younis to Rafah… And now they are in Rafah.. they are still bombing the city! It looks like the plan is for them to force Egypt to take them… congratulations on ethnically cleansing the Gaza Strip!!! I just found it funny in the un yesterday when the us once again said they should concentrate on the two state solution… the dirty secret is that the hardliners in the government want as much to do with that as you say Hamas does! You say it’s all about Gaza.. and yet since October 7th Israeli forces have managed to kill 300 people and make life more miserable and tougher for those living in the West Bank…. So not just about Gaza then! " Do you think hamas should surrender? | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? The issue is that under international law, and building or land used for military purposes can become a legitimate military target So when we talk about “war crimes” like bombing a hospital, Israel will have intel that the hospital was being used to store military equipment, making it a military target, so not a war crime Hamas is literally stood behind civilians launching rockets at Israel and we’re all meant to get upset when Israel fights back? Get upset with Hamas for their war crimes, I’m pretty sure using civilians as meat shields falls under a war crime somewhere in law This .
I think you'll find the following war crimes are on both sides which you've ahem... "Forgot to mention" also under the Geneva convention...
IDF sniper in a Catholic church
Shutting off water and electricity to a population
Shooting people waving white flags
Shooting Christians in a compound
Population driven to a famine
And that'll be the tip of the iceberg seeing as limited access to journalists
But hey.. they're not Ukrainians being killed, they're just a bunch of 20,000 poxy ragheads .. right?
I wont list the war crimes and pure evil hamas has done, it is well understood by the world.
Your support for hamas is shocking."I thought you'd manufacture a ludicrous statement that I support hamas in a pathetic attempt to discredit..and here you are doing exactly that. What a stupid accusation | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? It isn’t murder, it’s war. A war started by Hamas terrorists. Now they are bleating about the consequences. Where do you get your numbers from? Hamas? Actually, the war was instigated by Isreal. 70 years ago by opression, gheto..ising palistine., And in more recent years besieged and also had land illegally occupied by isreal. Isreal play the victim, but cause a lot of their own problems. Given the circumstances I'm not suprised the likes of hamas exists... Even though I disagree with their methods. Interesting parralels between palistine oppressed by Isreal and Ukraine being opressed by Russia.. only the sympathies are reversed... Interesting also how people on here justify genocide when it suits the gepolitical stance. And it's not hamas "bleating" it's the ordinary people caught in the middle that's suffering through no fault of their own We can all be selective with history, start and finish as it suits. Your first statement isn't true but it seems to suit your narative. That was just another conflict point in history between Isreael and the islamic world surrounding it. We need to go back a lot further to look at conflict between Israel and todays Palastinians to understand a little bit more and even then 90% of us will still not understand. Israel is and has been a prosperous thorn in contrast to other regimes in this region that have traditionally and historically had internal conflict and fighting and self destabalisation. Can you please clarify what you are saying as I am confused... Israel was created in 1947/48 so what do you mean go back further? Israel is prosperous but it not the only successful state in the region (or are you focused on political stability)?" Sorry this has taken a while but took time to gather the information you asked. Most see 'Israel' as a place which is convenient for this debate, but if it only refered to a place then much of its history and the people can be disguarded in arguments, but we cant do this ifcwe are to have a proper understanding of the tensions involved. Israel as a people seem to first appear near the end of the 13th century BC within the Egyptian Merneptah Stele, referring apparently to a people (rather than a place) inhabiting what was then “Canaan.” A few centuries later in that region, we find two sister kingdoms: Israel and Judah (the origin of the term “Jew”) In about 722 BC, the kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Neo-Assyrian empire, centred in what’s now Iraq. As an ancient geographic term, “Israel” was no more. Less than a century and half later, Judah was overthrown. Its capital Jerusalem was sacked, the Jewish Temple destroyed and many of Judah’s inhabitants were exiled to Babylonia. Following the exiles end about 50 years after, Jerusalem was rebuilt and was the heart of Judaism for nearly 7 centuries befor it was then destroyed by the Romans in AD70. Roman Emperor Hadrian expelled the Jews from Jerusalem and decreed that the city and surrounding territory be part of a larger entity called “Syria-Palestina.” “Palestina” took its name from the coastal territory of the ancient Philistines, enemies of the Israelites (ancestors of the Jews). Subsequent to the Islamic conquest of the Middle East in the seventh century, Arab peoples began to settle in the former “Palestina.” Apart from about 90 years of Crusader domination, the land fell under Muslim control for just under 1,200 years. Although Jewish habitation never ceased, the population was overwhelmingly Arab. In the second half of the 19th century, the longstanding yearning of Jews in the Diaspora to return to the territory of their ancestors culminated in the nationalistic movement called Zionism. The Zionist cause was driven by steeply rising hatred toward Jews in Europe and Russia. Immigrating Jews encountered a predominantly Arab populace, who also considered it their ancestral homeland. At that time, the land comprised three administrative regions of the Ottoman empire, none of which was called “Palestine.” In 1917, the land came under British rule. In 1923, “Mandatory Palestine,” which also included the current state of Jordan, was created. Its Arab inhabitants saw themselves primarily not as “Palestinians” in the sense of a nation, but instead as Arabs living in Palestine (or rather, “Greater Syria”). By more than 1,000 years, “Israel” predates “Palestine.” The land then became home primarily to an Arab population, again for more than a millennium. Both Jews and Arabs thus have a legitimate claim to the land. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has seen myriad wrongs and brutalities on both sides. No act of vengeance, however extreme, could now allow one party to say that accounts had been settled on their side. The only way forward is, somehow, to cease looking backwards. Setting aside the Korans teaching as i mentioned in my previous comment, given human nature and evident by most posts on the forum and wider debates this I cannot see happening. Taking into account the Koran's directives, interpretations and teachings by its leaders it will never end. It will eventually be brought to our doorstep. Hope that answers your question. | |||
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"This is interesting and ties in with what i was just saying about it being bigger than just gaza. UK-based Bukhaiti, a former spokesman for the Houthis who said he left the group when he saw it diverge from it origins as an “educational movement” into “a terror group,” spoke to the network on Saturday. “The Houthis aren’t just dangers to the citizens of Yemen, they are dangerous to the region and the entire world,” he said. Theres more about it in Israel times today. " Isreal are there to try and take advantage of the houthis situation because Yemen is basically in a civil war between a proxy of Iran and a proxy of Saudi Arabia Iran basically have proxy’s fighting battles all over the Middle East.. Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon | |||
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"This is interesting and ties in with what i was just saying about it being bigger than just gaza. UK-based Bukhaiti, a former spokesman for the Houthis who said he left the group when he saw it diverge from it origins as an “educational movement” into “a terror group,” spoke to the network on Saturday. “The Houthis aren’t just dangers to the citizens of Yemen, they are dangerous to the region and the entire world,” he said. Theres more about it in Israel times today. Isreal are there to try and take advantage of the houthis situation because Yemen is basically in a civil war between a proxy of Iran and a proxy of Saudi Arabia Iran basically have proxy’s fighting battles all over the Middle East.. Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon " Correct, thats been well known for decades. Many fail to see the bigger picture thats it's not just about that region. It is a global thing for Islam and most dont see it or choose to ignore with heads in the sand. | |||
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"This is interesting and ties in with what i was just saying about it being bigger than just gaza. UK-based Bukhaiti, a former spokesman for the Houthis who said he left the group when he saw it diverge from it origins as an “educational movement” into “a terror group,” spoke to the network on Saturday. “The Houthis aren’t just dangers to the citizens of Yemen, they are dangerous to the region and the entire world,” he said. Theres more about it in Israel times today. Isreal are there to try and take advantage of the houthis situation because Yemen is basically in a civil war between a proxy of Iran and a proxy of Saudi Arabia Iran basically have proxy’s fighting battles all over the Middle East.. Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon " so a bit like you yanks then, fingers all over the middle east and arming the likes of isis in syria and lets not forget bin laden was one of there mates until he wasnt | |||
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"What war crimes? The only war crimes are the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. Israel has the right to defend its citizens from terrorists, and to make sure that the events of October 7th are never repeated.What war crimes? The murder of up to 20000 civilians and the driving of an entire population away from their homes and into the desert. Wtf? It isn’t murder, it’s war. A war started by Hamas terrorists. Now they are bleating about the consequences. Where do you get your numbers from? Hamas? Actually, the war was instigated by Isreal. 70 years ago by opression, gheto..ising palistine., And in more recent years besieged and also had land illegally occupied by isreal. Isreal play the victim, but cause a lot of their own problems. Given the circumstances I'm not suprised the likes of hamas exists... Even though I disagree with their methods. Interesting parralels between palistine oppressed by Isreal and Ukraine being opressed by Russia.. only the sympathies are reversed... Interesting also how people on here justify genocide when it suits the gepolitical stance. And it's not hamas "bleating" it's the ordinary people caught in the middle that's suffering through no fault of their own We can all be selective with history, start and finish as it suits. Your first statement isn't true but it seems to suit your narative. That was just another conflict point in history between Isreael and the islamic world surrounding it. We need to go back a lot further to look at conflict between Israel and todays Palastinians to understand a little bit more and even then 90% of us will still not understand. Israel is and has been a prosperous thorn in contrast to other regimes in this region that have traditionally and historically had internal conflict and fighting and self destabalisation. Can you please clarify what you are saying as I am confused... Israel was created in 1947/48 so what do you mean go back further? Israel is prosperous but it not the only successful state in the region (or are you focused on political stability)? Sorry this has taken a while but took time to gather the information you asked. Most see 'Israel' as a place which is convenient for this debate, but if it only refered to a place then much of its history and the people can be disguarded in arguments, but we cant do this ifcwe are to have a proper understanding of the tensions involved. Israel as a people seem to first appear near the end of the 13th century BC within the Egyptian Merneptah Stele, referring apparently to a people (rather than a place) inhabiting what was then “Canaan.” A few centuries later in that region, we find two sister kingdoms: Israel and Judah (the origin of the term “Jew”) In about 722 BC, the kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Neo-Assyrian empire, centred in what’s now Iraq. As an ancient geographic term, “Israel” was no more. Less than a century and half later, Judah was overthrown. Its capital Jerusalem was sacked, the Jewish Temple destroyed and many of Judah’s inhabitants were exiled to Babylonia. Following the exiles end about 50 years after, Jerusalem was rebuilt and was the heart of Judaism for nearly 7 centuries befor it was then destroyed by the Romans in AD70. Roman Emperor Hadrian expelled the Jews from Jerusalem and decreed that the city and surrounding territory be part of a larger entity called “Syria-Palestina.” “Palestina” took its name from the coastal territory of the ancient Philistines, enemies of the Israelites (ancestors of the Jews). Subsequent to the Islamic conquest of the Middle East in the seventh century, Arab peoples began to settle in the former “Palestina.” Apart from about 90 years of Crusader domination, the land fell under Muslim control for just under 1,200 years. Although Jewish habitation never ceased, the population was overwhelmingly Arab. In the second half of the 19th century, the longstanding yearning of Jews in the Diaspora to return to the territory of their ancestors culminated in the nationalistic movement called Zionism. The Zionist cause was driven by steeply rising hatred toward Jews in Europe and Russia. Immigrating Jews encountered a predominantly Arab populace, who also considered it their ancestral homeland. At that time, the land comprised three administrative regions of the Ottoman empire, none of which was called “Palestine.” In 1917, the land came under British rule. In 1923, “Mandatory Palestine,” which also included the current state of Jordan, was created. Its Arab inhabitants saw themselves primarily not as “Palestinians” in the sense of a nation, but instead as Arabs living in Palestine (or rather, “Greater Syria”). By more than 1,000 years, “Israel” predates “Palestine.” The land then became home primarily to an Arab population, again for more than a millennium. Both Jews and Arabs thus have a legitimate claim to the land. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has seen myriad wrongs and brutalities on both sides. No act of vengeance, however extreme, could now allow one party to say that accounts had been settled on their side. The only way forward is, somehow, to cease looking backwards. Setting aside the Korans teaching as i mentioned in my previous comment, given human nature and evident by most posts on the forum and wider debates this I cannot see happening. Taking into account the Koran's directives, interpretations and teachings by its leaders it will never end. It will eventually be brought to our doorstep. Hope that answers your question. " Only just seen this. A good summary of the history, thanks. | |||
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"This is interesting and ties in with what i was just saying about it being bigger than just gaza. UK-based Bukhaiti, a former spokesman for the Houthis who said he left the group when he saw it diverge from it origins as an “educational movement” into “a terror group,” spoke to the network on Saturday. “The Houthis aren’t just dangers to the citizens of Yemen, they are dangerous to the region and the entire world,” he said. Theres more about it in Israel times today. Isreal are there to try and take advantage of the houthis situation because Yemen is basically in a civil war between a proxy of Iran and a proxy of Saudi Arabia Iran basically have proxy’s fighting battles all over the Middle East.. Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon so a bit like you yanks then, fingers all over the middle east and arming the likes of isis in syria and lets not forget bin laden was one of there mates until he wasnt" Think youre talking out of the side of your neck. One I'm not a yank (noticed a derogatory term used for some personal reason), secondly the Uk has been training and feeding arms into that region as have the Irish through proxy, the French etc etc for decades. This list goes on and on. So what is you point exactly? | |||
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"This is interesting and ties in with what i was just saying about it being bigger than just gaza. UK-based Bukhaiti, a former spokesman for the Houthis who said he left the group when he saw it diverge from it origins as an “educational movement” into “a terror group,” spoke to the network on Saturday. “The Houthis aren’t just dangers to the citizens of Yemen, they are dangerous to the region and the entire world,” he said. Theres more about it in Israel times today. Isreal are there to try and take advantage of the houthis situation because Yemen is basically in a civil war between a proxy of Iran and a proxy of Saudi Arabia Iran basically have proxy’s fighting battles all over the Middle East.. Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon so a bit like you yanks then, fingers all over the middle east and arming the likes of isis in syria and lets not forget bin laden was one of there mates until he wasnt" Yes but the Yanks are the good guys, don't see how you don't get that. Go and watch a few Hollywood movies and you might learn something. They are trying to do good and spread their good ideas around the world. If only these damn natives would listen, understand and stop resisting. I mean if the Aborigines in Australia, the native tribes in Canada and the US and Moaris in NZ, had been more co-operative, instead of fighting back. They would have been better off. They would have learned and enjoyed the benefits of capitalism. Then enjoyed the benefits of trickle down. | |||
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"This is interesting and ties in with what i was just saying about it being bigger than just gaza. UK-based Bukhaiti, a former spokesman for the Houthis who said he left the group when he saw it diverge from it origins as an “educational movement” into “a terror group,” spoke to the network on Saturday. “The Houthis aren’t just dangers to the citizens of Yemen, they are dangerous to the region and the entire world,” he said. Theres more about it in Israel times today. Isreal are there to try and take advantage of the houthis situation because Yemen is basically in a civil war between a proxy of Iran and a proxy of Saudi Arabia Iran basically have proxy’s fighting battles all over the Middle East.. Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon so a bit like you yanks then, fingers all over the middle east and arming the likes of isis in syria and lets not forget bin laden was one of there mates until he wasnt Think youre talking out of the side of your neck. One I'm not a yank (noticed a derogatory term used for some personal reason), secondly the Uk has been training and feeding arms into that region as have the Irish through proxy, the French etc etc for decades. This list goes on and on. So what is you point exactly? " was talking to _abio not you so wind ya neck in sweetheart, he was saying iran interfere all over mid east, was pointing out his own country are just as bad as iran, and i think its you talking out the side of your neck pal | |||
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"A little known fact regarding Iran and western meddling that's gave us the Iran problem we have today It was a democracy.. until 1953 ..America and the UK government saught to gain influence in the country by backing a revolution and throwing out the democraticaly elected Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening the monarchical rule of the shah, The U.S. helped Iran create its nuclear program in 1957 by providing Iran its first nuclear reactor and nuclear fuel, and after 1967 by providing Iran with weapons grade enriched uranium. Iran's nuclear program was launched as part of the Atoms for Peace program. So we've ended up with continuous meddling in the middle East. The western created mess we have today. " The middle east is a western created mess? I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years. | |||
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"And it’s not going to help that Isreal have assassinated that senior Hamas leader in Lebanon in a drone strike If you want to draw Lebanon and in effect other Middle Eastern countries into the war… violating their sovereignty would be the way to do it" Not sure that I agree with the phrase "not going to help". Israel (or Isreal as some spell it...no critcism as the route of the name is based upon Hebrew spelling and pronunciation, not Latin!) will never accept Hamas or Hisbollah. Hamas and Hisbollah will never accept Israel. Therefore, there will always be conflict between those protagonists. Will this draw others in? I suggest that Iran is already "in". The government of Lebanon accepts Hisbollah operating on its own patch because it cannot restrict the sphere of influence. In which case, if it cannot restrict Hisbollah, then surely it is unlikely to be able to stand up against Israel either militarily or diplomatically. Syria is still delicately poised and will not open an external front either militarily or diplomatically. Jordan and Saudi Arabia will sit back and bide their time as they are opposed to Iran. That leaves potential opportunities for either Russian or Chinese intervention, neither of which would appear to be interested in getting involved directly other than a few diplomatic noises. Happy to be proven wrong if somehow true diplomatic or strategic insight but not when someone gives me a "what if?" scenario. The death of a few Hamas executives/chief terrorists/freedom fighters (whatever floats your boat) may potentially only be of benefit if Israel uses that as an excuse for saving some sort of face by claiming that they have exorcised the leadership of the horrific Hamas attacks, which may lead to their cessation of military activities. | |||
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"A little known fact regarding Iran and western meddling that's gave us the Iran problem we have today It was a democracy.. until 1953 ..America and the UK government saught to gain influence in the country by backing a revolution and throwing out the democraticaly elected Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening the monarchical rule of the shah, The U.S. helped Iran create its nuclear program in 1957 by providing Iran its first nuclear reactor and nuclear fuel, and after 1967 by providing Iran with weapons grade enriched uranium. Iran's nuclear program was launched as part of the Atoms for Peace program. So we've ended up with continuous meddling in the middle East. The western created mess we have today. The middle east is a western created mess? I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years. " I will disagree based upon history and not the last 50 years. I refer to thousands of years. This whole area has never really known real peace, but has always been under political tensions. Its always been easy to destabilise regions that have ethnic and tribal groups that are not constrained by bourders, especially those of a nomadic heretage. Throw in ideologies, some are ancient and you will always have a destabalised area. What you are suggesting is nothing new to this region. | |||
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"This is interesting and ties in with what i was just saying about it being bigger than just gaza. UK-based Bukhaiti, a former spokesman for the Houthis who said he left the group when he saw it diverge from it origins as an “educational movement” into “a terror group,” spoke to the network on Saturday. “The Houthis aren’t just dangers to the citizens of Yemen, they are dangerous to the region and the entire world,” he said. Theres more about it in Israel times today. Isreal are there to try and take advantage of the houthis situation because Yemen is basically in a civil war between a proxy of Iran and a proxy of Saudi Arabia Iran basically have proxy’s fighting battles all over the Middle East.. Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon so a bit like you yanks then, fingers all over the middle east and arming the likes of isis in syria and lets not forget bin laden was one of there mates until he wasnt Think youre talking out of the side of your neck. One I'm not a yank (noticed a derogatory term used for some personal reason), secondly the Uk has been training and feeding arms into that region as have the Irish through proxy, the French etc etc for decades. This list goes on and on. So what is you point exactly? was talking to _abio not you so wind ya neck in sweetheart, he was saying iran interfere all over mid east, was pointing out his own country are just as bad as iran, and i think its you talking out the side of your neck pal" If you look closely, you replied to my comment. I maybe good-looking but im definitely not your sweetheart. 
My points still stand if you care to read them more carefully. | |||
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"A little known fact regarding Iran and western meddling that's gave us the Iran problem we have today It was a democracy.. until 1953 ..America and the UK government saught to gain influence in the country by backing a revolution and throwing out the democraticaly elected Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening the monarchical rule of the shah, The U.S. helped Iran create its nuclear program in 1957 by providing Iran its first nuclear reactor and nuclear fuel, and after 1967 by providing Iran with weapons grade enriched uranium. Iran's nuclear program was launched as part of the Atoms for Peace program. So we've ended up with continuous meddling in the middle East. The western created mess we have today. The middle east is a western created mess? I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years. I will disagree based upon history and not the last 50 years. I refer to thousands of years. This whole area has never really known real peace, but has always been under political tensions. Its always been easy to destabilise regions that have ethnic and tribal groups that are not constrained by bourders, especially those of a nomadic heretage. Throw in ideologies, some are ancient and you will always have a destabalised area. What you are suggesting is nothing new to this region. " I think you are agreeing | |||
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"A little known fact regarding Iran and western meddling that's gave us the Iran problem we have today It was a democracy.. until 1953 ..America and the UK government saught to gain influence in the country by backing a revolution and throwing out the democraticaly elected Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening the monarchical rule of the shah, The U.S. helped Iran create its nuclear program in 1957 by providing Iran its first nuclear reactor and nuclear fuel, and after 1967 by providing Iran with weapons grade enriched uranium. Iran's nuclear program was launched as part of the Atoms for Peace program. So we've ended up with continuous meddling in the middle East. The western created mess we have today. The middle east is a western created mess? I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years. I will disagree based upon history and not the last 50 years. I refer to thousands of years. This whole area has never really known real peace, but has always been under political tensions. Its always been easy to destabilise regions that have ethnic and tribal groups that are not constrained by bourders, especially those of a nomadic heretage. Throw in ideologies, some are ancient and you will always have a destabalised area. What you are suggesting is nothing new to this region. I think you are agreeing " Not at all. Its all in the detail. Youre blaming it all on the Americans, something you seem to do a lot. I said the region has been unstable for centuries and longer, that will include time before modern American came inti existance. I also stated uk and others have been meddling (you overlooked this and continued to) so current blame doesn't rest only on America as you claim. Others in the region have also been meddling and continue to contribute to its instability. Its all in the detail. | |||
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"A little known fact regarding Iran and western meddling that's gave us the Iran problem we have today It was a democracy.. until 1953 ..America and the UK government saught to gain influence in the country by backing a revolution and throwing out the democraticaly elected Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening the monarchical rule of the shah, The U.S. helped Iran create its nuclear program in 1957 by providing Iran its first nuclear reactor and nuclear fuel, and after 1967 by providing Iran with weapons grade enriched uranium. Iran's nuclear program was launched as part of the Atoms for Peace program. So we've ended up with continuous meddling in the middle East. The western created mess we have today. The middle east is a western created mess? I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years. I will disagree based upon history and not the last 50 years. I refer to thousands of years. This whole area has never really known real peace, but has always been under political tensions. Its always been easy to destabilise regions that have ethnic and tribal groups that are not constrained by bourders, especially those of a nomadic heretage. Throw in ideologies, some are ancient and you will always have a destabalised area. What you are suggesting is nothing new to this region. I think you are agreeing Not at all. Its all in the detail. Youre blaming it all on the Americans, something you seem to do a lot. I said the region has been unstable for centuries and longer, that will include time before modern American came inti existance. I also stated uk and others have been meddling (you overlooked this and continued to) so current blame doesn't rest only on America as you claim. Others in the region have also been meddling and continue to contribute to its instability. Its all in the detail. " You got pissed off when someone quoted you wrongly. Now you appear to be doing the same. Notme said: I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years. He hasn't blamed USA at all from what I can see. | |||
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"And it’s not going to help that Isreal have assassinated that senior Hamas leader in Lebanon in a drone strike If you want to draw Lebanon and in effect other Middle Eastern countries into the war… violating their sovereignty would be the way to do it" Haha... There is no sovereignty in Lebanon. The South is a lawless pit for Hezbollah. The rest is an uneasy balance between various factions. It's basically being r@ped slowly by Iran, with some Israeli action on the side. The only thing they can all agree on is that Palestinians in Lebanon are second class citizens in every way. | |||
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"A little known fact regarding Iran and western meddling that's gave us the Iran problem we have today It was a democracy.. until 1953 ..America and the UK government saught to gain influence in the country by backing a revolution and throwing out the democraticaly elected Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening the monarchical rule of the shah, The U.S. helped Iran create its nuclear program in 1957 by providing Iran its first nuclear reactor and nuclear fuel, and after 1967 by providing Iran with weapons grade enriched uranium. Iran's nuclear program was launched as part of the Atoms for Peace program. So we've ended up with continuous meddling in the middle East. The western created mess we have today. The middle east is a western created mess? I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years. " My apologies for misreading. I thought it was _estival that i was replying too. | |||
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"A little known fact regarding Iran and western meddling that's gave us the Iran problem we have today It was a democracy.. until 1953 ..America and the UK government saught to gain influence in the country by backing a revolution and throwing out the democraticaly elected Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening the monarchical rule of the shah, The U.S. helped Iran create its nuclear program in 1957 by providing Iran its first nuclear reactor and nuclear fuel, and after 1967 by providing Iran with weapons grade enriched uranium. Iran's nuclear program was launched as part of the Atoms for Peace program. So we've ended up with continuous meddling in the middle East. The western created mess we have today. The middle east is a western created mess? I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years. I will disagree based upon history and not the last 50 years. I refer to thousands of years. This whole area has never really known real peace, but has always been under political tensions. Its always been easy to destabilise regions that have ethnic and tribal groups that are not constrained by bourders, especially those of a nomadic heretage. Throw in ideologies, some are ancient and you will always have a destabalised area. What you are suggesting is nothing new to this region. I think you are agreeing " My sincere apologies, i thought it was someone else who was saying they agreed with me. | |||
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"The middle east is a western created mess? " 1948 onwards.. of course.. would you call it a success? 
" I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years. " How!?... Tell me how taking and displacing palisitinians, forcing them to live under occupation , aphartied or eradication is possibly better than before 1948?! And me how throwing out a democratically elected leader in Iran improved it and gave us a wonderful Iran to deal with today | |||
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"The middle east is a western created mess? 1948 onwards.. of course.. would you call it a success?
I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years.
How!?... Tell me how taking and displacing palisitinians, forcing them to live under occupation , aphartied or eradication is possibly better than before 1948?!
And me how throwing out a democratically elected leader in Iran improved it and gave us a wonderful Iran to deal with today "Do you think the Near East / Middle East has only had problems from a Palestinian point of view? Go back to caliphates and come forward, you will see the region and its people have struggled with conflict and most of it amongst themselves, no different to Europe. | |||
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"The middle east is a western created mess? 1948 onwards.. of course.. would you call it a success?
I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years.
How!?... Tell me how taking and displacing palisitinians, forcing them to live under occupation , aphartied or eradication is possibly better than before 1948?!
And me how throwing out a democratically elected leader in Iran improved it and gave us a wonderful Iran to deal with today
Do you think the Near East / Middle East has only had problems from a Palestinian point of view? Go back to caliphates and come forward, you will see the region and its people have struggled with conflict and most of it amongst themselves, no different to Europe.
"Why stop at the rise of Islam? We can go back to Pharaonic Egypt, the Hittites, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantians. Pretty safe to say the Cradle of Civilisation has never been that civilised (by modern standards). | |||
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"The middle east is a western created mess? 1948 onwards.. of course.. would you call it a success?
I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years.
How!?... Tell me how taking and displacing palisitinians, forcing them to live under occupation , aphartied or eradication is possibly better than before 1948?!
And me how throwing out a democratically elected leader in Iran improved it and gave us a wonderful Iran to deal with today
Do you think the Near East / Middle East has only had problems from a Palestinian point of view? Go back to caliphates and come forward, you will see the region and its people have struggled with conflict and most of it amongst themselves, no different to Europe.
"So you condone what I mentioned earlier. Meddling on top of more meddling.. the least we can do is taking responsibility for this mess and put things right the best we can.. not double down on a mistake. | |||
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"The middle east is a western created mess? 1948 onwards.. of course.. would you call it a success?
I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years.
How!?... Tell me how taking and displacing palisitinians, forcing them to live under occupation , aphartied or eradication is possibly better than before 1948?!
And me how throwing out a democratically elected leader in Iran improved it and gave us a wonderful Iran to deal with today
Do you think the Near East / Middle East has only had problems from a Palestinian point of view? Go back to caliphates and come forward, you will see the region and its people have struggled with conflict and most of it amongst themselves, no different to Europe.
So you condone what I mentioned earlier.
Meddling on top of more meddling.. the least we can do is taking responsibility for this mess and put things right the best we can.. not double down on a mistake.
"The world is tribal and will be for a couple of hundred or more years to come, until then expect the power and influence to go back and forth. | |||
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"The middle east is a western created mess? 1948 onwards.. of course.. would you call it a success?
I'm afraid the middle east is its own worst enemy and has been for thousands of years.
How!?... Tell me how taking and displacing palisitinians, forcing them to live under occupation , aphartied or eradication is possibly better than before 1948?!
And me how throwing out a democratically elected leader in Iran improved it and gave us a wonderful Iran to deal with today
Do you think the Near East / Middle East has only had problems from a Palestinian point of view? Go back to caliphates and come forward, you will see the region and its people have struggled with conflict and most of it amongst themselves, no different to Europe.
So you condone what I mentioned earlier.
Meddling on top of more meddling.. the least we can do is taking responsibility for this mess and put things right the best we can.. not double down on a mistake.
The world is tribal and will be for a couple of hundred or more years to come, until then expect the power and influence to go back and forth.
"Yes I agree.. but the current problems over there is fixable to some extent.. but the USA , UK and Europe are too spineless to do anything but double down on what is wrong! Namely keeping quiet on the genocide in palisitine and sticking their heads in the sand. What they should do is make palisitine a sover state, force Isreal to accept it, remove settlers on the current occupied territories and if Isreal complain.. hard cheese. | |||
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"What SHOULD be done is a complete redraw of the map. The state of Palestine will be in the North bordering Lebanon and Syria and include the Golan Heights, Galilee and the top half of the West Bank. Ensure Palestine has some Mediterranean coast and is not landlocked while creating a buffer to Hezbollah and Syria. The state of Israel will be in the South and include Gaza and southern half of West Bank. Make Jerusalem an international city under protection of UN where the three faiths have equal access. Won’t ever happen though!" I agree.. too much spineless shite going on for it to happen | |||
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