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"The govt promised this. And apparently have delivered on this. The govt have purloined nurses from red list countries (ethically "illegal" = amoral). Sadly they haven't retained nursing staff, attrition rates are up. Last year there were around 48,000 NHS England vacancies. Now there are around 44,000. Oddly enough the figure was in excess of 40,000 prior to the promise. Is attrition THAT awful? OR is someone fudging the figures?" Attrition rates aren't that awful. The number of NHS staff grows by about 3.5% every year. The problem is that the demand for NHS services is climbing nearly as fast as new staff are being recruited. | |||
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"The govt promised this. And apparently have delivered on this. The govt have purloined nurses from red list countries (ethically "illegal" = amoral). Sadly they haven't retained nursing staff, attrition rates are up. Last year there were around 48,000 NHS England vacancies. Now there are around 44,000. Oddly enough the figure was in excess of 40,000 prior to the promise. Is attrition THAT awful? OR is someone fudging the figures? Attrition rates aren't that awful. The number of NHS staff grows by about 3.5% every year. The problem is that the demand for NHS services is climbing nearly as fast as new staff are being recruited." Attrition is awful. | |||
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"The govt promised this. And apparently have delivered on this. The govt have purloined nurses from red list countries (ethically "illegal" = amoral). Sadly they haven't retained nursing staff, attrition rates are up. Last year there were around 48,000 NHS England vacancies. Now there are around 44,000. Oddly enough the figure was in excess of 40,000 prior to the promise. Is attrition THAT awful? OR is someone fudging the figures?" "Attrition rates aren't that awful. The number of NHS staff grows by about 3.5% every year. The problem is that the demand for NHS services is climbing nearly as fast as new staff are being recruited." "Attrition is awful." But it's not *that* awful, which is what you asked. | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election" We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.  | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet. "Excellent news. Is this well under way? | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?"If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway. | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
"I would also never trust anyone who can't divide 50K by 40, you will lose your shirt.. 
I will correct myself 1250 nurses in each hospital, we need more hospitals to house them all. | |||
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"They've been fudging the figures to make it look like they have recruited more nurses. In fact in lot's of cases all they have done is changed job description and given an amount of training which is just barely enough to call those people a nurse,in many cases the training falls very short of the person being an actual nurse. Most de skill very quickly due to the volume of admin work involved these days spending less and less time with hand's on duties." You're probably thinking of nursing associates. Nursing associates do a two year degree, they are not nurses. Nurses do a three year degree that should be four years like the majority of countries do. Condensing 4 years into 3 causes high attrition of students. | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election" They'll blame RAAC. | |||
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"And people believed the big red bus x" Those of us with common sense didn't. | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
I would also never trust anyone who can't divide 50K by 40, you will lose your shirt..
I will correct myself 1250 nurses in each hospital, we need more hospitals to house them all. "No your first calculation is ok - cos community and GP practices need nurses  | |||
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"The govt promised this. And apparently have delivered on this. The govt have purloined nurses from red list countries (ethically "illegal" = amoral). Sadly they haven't retained nursing staff, attrition rates are up. Last year there were around 48,000 NHS England vacancies. Now there are around 44,000. Oddly enough the figure was in excess of 40,000 prior to the promise. Is attrition THAT awful? OR is someone fudging the figures? Attrition rates aren't that awful. The number of NHS staff grows by about 3.5% every year. The problem is that the demand for NHS services is climbing nearly as fast as new staff are being recruited." I'll try look at the numbers tomorrow. | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
"I googled "is the government building 40 new hospitals" The top link was a sky news article from July. Doesn't look good. "Only 32 of 40 new hospitals promised by Boris Johnson to be built by 2030 - and some may be too small, audit suggests" Still, as any sane person would, I believe in the integrity of the Tories and I am certain they'll pull this off. | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
I googled "is the government building 40 new hospitals"
The top link was a sky news article from July. Doesn't look good.
"Only 32 of 40 new hospitals promised by Boris Johnson to be built by 2030 - and some may be too small, audit suggests"
Still, as any sane person would, I believe in the integrity of the Tories and I am certain they'll pull this off.
"Small ones, hmmm, animal hospitals? Toys' hospitals? | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
I would also never trust anyone who can't divide 50K by 40, you will lose your shirt..
I will correct myself 1250 nurses in each hospital, we need more hospitals to house them all.
No your first calculation is ok - cos community and GP practices need nurses "So do care homes and other places | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
I would also never trust anyone who can't divide 50K by 40, you will lose your shirt..
I will correct myself 1250 nurses in each hospital, we need more hospitals to house them all.
No your first calculation is ok - cos community and GP practices need nurses
So do care homes and other places "We're discussing NHS nurses. | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
I would also never trust anyone who can't divide 50K by 40, you will lose your shirt..
I will correct myself 1250 nurses in each hospital, we need more hospitals to house them all.
No your first calculation is ok - cos community and GP practices need nurses
So do care homes and other places
We're discussing NHS nurses."I shouldn't have included GP practices but shhhhh | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
"Underway possibly or even probably but they won't be in power to take the credit when (if) they get completed | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
I googled "is the government building 40 new hospitals"
The top link was a sky news article from July. Doesn't look good.
"Only 32 of 40 new hospitals promised by Boris Johnson to be built by 2030 - and some may be too small, audit suggests"
Still, as any sane person would, I believe in the integrity of the Tories and I am certain they'll pull this off.
"You are always looking on the downside... Try thinking positive, I'm sure we will have 32 brand new hospitals, gold plated services right down to parking and food, highly trained staff, no waiting times and state of the art medicines and equipment by 2030. If we don't we will only have Labour to blame  | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
I googled "is the government building 40 new hospitals"
The top link was a sky news article from July. Doesn't look good.
"Only 32 of 40 new hospitals promised by Boris Johnson to be built by 2030 - and some may be too small, audit suggests"
Still, as any sane person would, I believe in the integrity of the Tories and I am certain they'll pull this off.
You are always looking on the downside... Try thinking positive, I'm sure we will have 32 brand new hospitals, gold plated services right down to parking and food, highly trained staff, no waiting times and state of the art medicines and equipment by 2030.
If we don't we will only have Labour to blame "You'll want Labour to part the dead sea next  | |||
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"The govt promised this. And apparently have delivered on this. The govt have purloined nurses from red list countries (ethically "illegal" = amoral). Sadly they haven't retained nursing staff, attrition rates are up. Last year there were around 48,000 NHS England vacancies. Now there are around 44,000. Oddly enough the figure was in excess of 40,000 prior to the promise. Is attrition THAT awful? OR is someone fudging the figures?" A bit of the above… people talk about people poaching nurses from red list countries… Do we have the same criticism for, for example, Australia, New Zealand, the UAE and the US who all actively recruit UK nurses? Part of the problem is that you also need a significant rise in student nursing places which will take time to feed through the system… same with doctors bearin in mind it takes 7 years to qualify it was never a problem that was going to be solved overnight | |||
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"The govt promised this. And apparently have delivered on this. The govt have purloined nurses from red list countries (ethically "illegal" = amoral). Sadly they haven't retained nursing staff, attrition rates are up. Last year there were around 48,000 NHS England vacancies. Now there are around 44,000. Oddly enough the figure was in excess of 40,000 prior to the promise. Is attrition THAT awful? OR is someone fudging the figures? A bit of the above… people talk about people poaching nurses from red list countries… Do we have the same criticism for, for example, Australia, New Zealand, the UAE and the US who all actively recruit UK nurses? Part of the problem is that you also need a significant rise in student nursing places which will take time to feed through the system… same with doctors bearin in mind it takes 7 years to qualify it was never a problem that was going to be solved overnight " Crisis of nursing numbers has been over two decades minimum. | |||
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"We have to step back and ask is this a nursing shortage or organisational shortcomings? In my experience the NHS is inefficient, bureaucratic with no clue how to run a modern, efficient business (because that's what healthcare is, a business). You might say "health is special" but remember it's not Doctors and Nurses doing pioneering research on drugs and medical devices - it's scientists and engineers working in private industry." Look at Hinchingbrooke Hospital. It was run as a business (a pilot). It was unsuccessful. Circle withdrew from its 10 year contract after only three years. | |||
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"We have to step back and ask is this a nursing shortage or organisational shortcomings? In my experience the NHS is inefficient, bureaucratic with no clue how to run a modern, efficient business (because that's what healthcare is, a business). You might say "health is special" but remember it's not Doctors and Nurses doing pioneering research on drugs and medical devices - it's scientists and engineers working in private industry. Look at Hinchingbrooke Hospital. It was run as a business (a pilot). It was unsuccessful. Circle withdrew from its 10 year contract after only three years." No idea what went wrong there, but private healthcare works exceptionally well across the globe. Medicine is put on a pedestal in the UK, but it's just transactional like any other service. | |||
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"The nurses are there, the problem is they can earn more on agency and therefore not registered nhs staff, the funds are there they are not being managed correctly. "No the nurses aren't there. The fact there are so many vacancies proves the funds are there = it's not about managing those funds! Most Trusts have bank staff, IE employed by the NHS. Agency use is frowned upon. | |||
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"The nurses are there, the problem is they can earn more on agency and therefore not registered nhs staff, the funds are there they are not being managed correctly.
No the nurses aren't there. The fact there are so many vacancies proves the funds are there = it's not about managing those funds! Most Trusts have bank staff, IE employed by the NHS. Agency use is frowned upon."A friend's wife is on agency weekends 2 12 hour cover and she clears over a grand for a weekend. | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
I googled "is the government building 40 new hospitals"
The top link was a sky news article from July. Doesn't look good.
"Only 32 of 40 new hospitals promised by Boris Johnson to be built by 2030 - and some may be too small, audit suggests"
Still, as any sane person would, I believe in the integrity of the Tories and I am certain they'll pull this off.
You are always looking on the downside... Try thinking positive, I'm sure we will have 32 brand new hospitals, gold plated services right down to parking and food, highly trained staff, no waiting times and state of the art medicines and equipment by 2030.
If we don't we will only have Labour to blame "Exactly, it's Labours fault we won't have all 40 hospitals too. | |||
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"The nurses are there, the problem is they can earn more on agency and therefore not registered nhs staff, the funds are there they are not being managed correctly.
No the nurses aren't there. The fact there are so many vacancies proves the funds are there = it's not about managing those funds! Most Trusts have bank staff, IE employed by the NHS. Agency use is frowned upon.
A friend's wife is on agency weekends 2 12 hour cover and she clears over a grand for a weekend. "I don't dispute agency nurses are having to be used. Hence the need to fill the vacancies. | |||
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"We have to step back and ask is this a nursing shortage or organisational shortcomings? In my experience the NHS is inefficient, bureaucratic with no clue how to run a modern, efficient business (because that's what healthcare is, a business). You might say "health is special" but remember it's not Doctors and Nurses doing pioneering research on drugs and medical devices - it's scientists and engineers working in private industry. Look at Hinchingbrooke Hospital. It was run as a business (a pilot). It was unsuccessful. Circle withdrew from its 10 year contract after only three years. No idea what went wrong there, but private healthcare works exceptionally well across the globe. Medicine is put on a pedestal in the UK, but it's just transactional like any other service. " It's hardly exceptional in the USA, where longevity has been below the UK for some years, partly because of its formula.  | |||
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"We have to step back and ask is this a nursing shortage or organisational shortcomings? In my experience the NHS is inefficient, bureaucratic with no clue how to run a modern, efficient business (because that's what healthcare is, a business). You might say "health is special" but remember it's not Doctors and Nurses doing pioneering research on drugs and medical devices - it's scientists and engineers working in private industry. Look at Hinchingbrooke Hospital. It was run as a business (a pilot). It was unsuccessful. Circle withdrew from its 10 year contract after only three years." What about PPG they run hospitals in prisons and them for profit. | |||
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"The nurses are there, the problem is they can earn more on agency and therefore not registered nhs staff, the funds are there they are not being managed correctly. "Dam right an all it's supply and demand why work for less if you can join an agency and do less for more. When the agency tells you the rate is cut you stop working the hospital is short staffed so you get asked to work for more money. Its a bissness like any other. | |||
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"The nurses are there, the problem is they can earn more on agency and therefore not registered nhs staff, the funds are there they are not being managed correctly.
No the nurses aren't there. The fact there are so many vacancies proves the funds are there = it's not about managing those funds! Most Trusts have bank staff, IE employed by the NHS. Agency use is frowned upon.
A friend's wife is on agency weekends 2 12 hour cover and she clears over a grand for a weekend.
I don't dispute agency nurses are having to be used. Hence the need to fill the vacancies."But how will you fill the gap in nursing when more are joining agency to do less for more. And lots leaving to go over sea where pay and living standards are better. Where the Wife works even imported nurses are looking at moving over sea and see the NHS as a step to a better life. | |||
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"I'm still waiting for the 40 new hospitals we were promised a the election We need somewhere to house 50K nurses, 500 in each hospital sounds about right and they still have 6 years and 19 days to complete the build. Nothing to worry about yet.
Excellent news. Is this well under way?
If I was you I would certainly bet every penny you have on this being underway.
I googled "is the government building 40 new hospitals"
The top link was a sky news article from July. Doesn't look good.
"Only 32 of 40 new hospitals promised by Boris Johnson to be built by 2030 - and some may be too small, audit suggests"
Still, as any sane person would, I believe in the integrity of the Tories and I am certain they'll pull this off.
You are always looking on the downside... Try thinking positive, I'm sure we will have 32 brand new hospitals, gold plated services right down to parking and food, highly trained staff, no waiting times and state of the art medicines and equipment by 2030.
If we don't we will only have Labour to blame
Exactly, it's Labours fault we won't have all 40 hospitals too. "Slight correction, "it will be". | |||
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"We have to step back and ask is this a nursing shortage or organisational shortcomings? In my experience the NHS is inefficient, bureaucratic with no clue how to run a modern, efficient business (because that's what healthcare is, a business). You might say "health is special" but remember it's not Doctors and Nurses doing pioneering research on drugs and medical devices - it's scientists and engineers working in private industry. Look at Hinchingbrooke Hospital. It was run as a business (a pilot). It was unsuccessful. Circle withdrew from its 10 year contract after only three years. What about PPG they run hospitals in prisons and them for profit. " They don't have hospitals in prisons. | |||
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"The nurses are there, the problem is they can earn more on agency and therefore not registered nhs staff, the funds are there they are not being managed correctly.
No the nurses aren't there. The fact there are so many vacancies proves the funds are there = it's not about managing those funds! Most Trusts have bank staff, IE employed by the NHS. Agency use is frowned upon.
A friend's wife is on agency weekends 2 12 hour cover and she clears over a grand for a weekend.
I don't dispute agency nurses are having to be used. Hence the need to fill the vacancies.
But how will you fill the gap in nursing when more are joining agency to do less for more. And lots leaving to go over sea where pay and living standards are better.
Where the Wife works even imported nurses are looking at moving over sea and see the NHS as a step to a better life. "Many nurses are leaving the profession for more money and less responsibility. | |||
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"World Health Organisation Workforce Support and Safeguard List, 2023, I assume the UK isn't on that list Fabio." I think my point was more that we are short of doctors and nurses to begin with, and those staff are being poached by other countries… it’s not helping our situation The uk needs staff to begin with.. if we are short of the amount of people we need the length of time it takes to train the issue for example with spaces in teaching hospitals isn’t going to be solved overnight In fact the amount of spaces in teaching hospitals has been cut back a lot over the last 10-15 years…. | |||
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"World Health Organisation Workforce Support and Safeguard List, 2023, I assume the UK isn't on that list Fabio. I think my point was more that we are short of doctors and nurses to begin with, and those staff are being poached by other countries… it’s not helping our situation The uk needs staff to begin with.. if we are short of the amount of people we need the length of time it takes to train the issue for example with spaces in teaching hospitals isn’t going to be solved overnight In fact the amount of spaces in teaching hospitals has been cut back a lot over the last 10-15 years…." The point is valid but not from the perspective of others poaching from the UK and "doing wrong" but from the perspective of: what can/should the government do about it. As for teaching hospital placements, that's not necessary for student nurses. Majority of placements are acute (hospital) but also primary/community/social care areas. Most areas love having a free pair of hands (or pairs) for a set period of time. In exchange for a smattering of support in the student's learning (and a wee financial stipend). | |||
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"Solutions to the continuous shortage of nurses: 1. Stop others poaching our homegrown talent - pay more, put in legislation for safe staffing. 2. Stop the amoral acquisition of international nurses (especially red list countries), remember this has been going on over 20 years - train more, make the course palatable to decrease attrition rates caused by four years condensed into three. Losing around half the numbers of student nurses over three years is an economic travesty. Enshrine in legislation the bursary is not to be removed until vacancies are, say 1% of the workforce. When the Tory govt gave the NHS an extra 8 billion, it was financed by removal of the nursing bursary. 3. Stop nurses leaving the profession - pay more (degree nurses earning more in retail is mind boggling) and legislate for safe staffing like the devolved nations (IE stop burnout, it's not all about the money), nurses work much more than their paid hours. " Nurses don't necessarily need degrees. Cost of training and student loans etc. should be written off incrementally over a reasonable period (say 20 years) of working for the NHS. So, work for the NHS for 30 years and no repayments are due. | |||
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"Solutions to the continuous shortage of nurses: 1. Stop others poaching our homegrown talent - pay more, put in legislation for safe staffing. 2. Stop the amoral acquisition of international nurses (especially red list countries), remember this has been going on over 20 years - train more, make the course palatable to decrease attrition rates caused by four years condensed into three. Losing around half the numbers of student nurses over three years is an economic travesty. Enshrine in legislation the bursary is not to be removed until vacancies are, say 1% of the workforce. When the Tory govt gave the NHS an extra 8 billion, it was financed by removal of the nursing bursary. 3. Stop nurses leaving the profession - pay more (degree nurses earning more in retail is mind boggling) and legislate for safe staffing like the devolved nations (IE stop burnout, it's not all about the money), nurses work much more than their paid hours. Nurses don't necessarily need degrees. Cost of training and student loans etc. should be written off incrementally over a reasonable period (say 20 years) of working for the NHS. So, work for the NHS for 30 years and no repayments are due." Critical thinking and evidence based practice means nurses must have degrees. There are supporting staff who don't need degrees. There are existing nurses who don't have degrees. If they want to progress they are encouraged to uplift/convert their diplomas | |||
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"Solutions to the continuous shortage of nurses: 1. Stop others poaching our homegrown talent - pay more, put in legislation for safe staffing. 2. Stop the amoral acquisition of international nurses (especially red list countries), remember this has been going on over 20 years - train more, make the course palatable to decrease attrition rates caused by four years condensed into three. Losing around half the numbers of student nurses over three years is an economic travesty. Enshrine in legislation the bursary is not to be removed until vacancies are, say 1% of the workforce. When the Tory govt gave the NHS an extra 8 billion, it was financed by removal of the nursing bursary. 3. Stop nurses leaving the profession - pay more (degree nurses earning more in retail is mind boggling) and legislate for safe staffing like the devolved nations (IE stop burnout, it's not all about the money), nurses work much more than their paid hours. Nurses don't necessarily need degrees. Cost of training and student loans etc. should be written off incrementally over a reasonable period (say 20 years) of working for the NHS. So, work for the NHS for 30 years and no repayments are due." If you're suggesting the removal of the bursary, then we might as well steal all our nurses from abroad. Immigration issue? Who cares? | |||
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"The govt promised this. And apparently have delivered on this. The govt have purloined nurses from red list countries (ethically "illegal" = amoral). Sadly they haven't retained nursing staff, attrition rates are up. Last year there were around 48,000 NHS England vacancies. Now there are around 44,000. Oddly enough the figure was in excess of 40,000 prior to the promise. Is attrition THAT awful? OR is someone fudging the figures?" Don't we have slemthing like 43k new nurses vs 2019? If job vacancies increase in that time. That doesn't alter the pledge nor the increase. | |||
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"Solutions to the continuous shortage of nurses: 1. Stop others poaching our homegrown talent - pay more, put in legislation for safe staffing. 2. Stop the amoral acquisition of international nurses (especially red list countries), remember this has been going on over 20 years - train more, make the course palatable to decrease attrition rates caused by four years condensed into three. Losing around half the numbers of student nurses over three years is an economic travesty. Enshrine in legislation the bursary is not to be removed until vacancies are, say 1% of the workforce. When the Tory govt gave the NHS an extra 8 billion, it was financed by removal of the nursing bursary. 3. Stop nurses leaving the profession - pay more (degree nurses earning more in retail is mind boggling) and legislate for safe staffing like the devolved nations (IE stop burnout, it's not all about the money), nurses work much more than their paid hours. Nurses don't necessarily need degrees. Cost of training and student loans etc. should be written off incrementally over a reasonable period (say 20 years) of working for the NHS. So, work for the NHS for 30 years and no repayments are due. If you're suggesting the removal of the bursary, then we might as well steal all our nurses from abroad. Immigration issue? Who cares?" No, I am saying that any loans the nurses have had to take out to cover their training are paid for by the government over a reasonable period as long as the nurse works for the NHS for that period. Same could apply to all medical professionals. Still not convinced about the degree issue. Nurse degrees are a relatively recent thing. | |||
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"The govt promised this. And apparently have delivered on this. The govt have purloined nurses from red list countries (ethically "illegal" = amoral). Sadly they haven't retained nursing staff, attrition rates are up. Last year there were around 48,000 NHS England vacancies. Now there are around 44,000. Oddly enough the figure was in excess of 40,000 prior to the promise. Is attrition THAT awful? OR is someone fudging the figures? Don't we have slemthing like 43k new nurses vs 2019? If job vacancies increase in that time. That doesn't alter the pledge nor the increase." This forum loves spouting the net on certain topics. So you are very well aware new nurses does not purely equate to extra nurses. Attrition is extremely relevant. | |||
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"Solutions to the continuous shortage of nurses: 1. Stop others poaching our homegrown talent - pay more, put in legislation for safe staffing. 2. Stop the amoral acquisition of international nurses (especially red list countries), remember this has been going on over 20 years - train more, make the course palatable to decrease attrition rates caused by four years condensed into three. Losing around half the numbers of student nurses over three years is an economic travesty. Enshrine in legislation the bursary is not to be removed until vacancies are, say 1% of the workforce. When the Tory govt gave the NHS an extra 8 billion, it was financed by removal of the nursing bursary. 3. Stop nurses leaving the profession - pay more (degree nurses earning more in retail is mind boggling) and legislate for safe staffing like the devolved nations (IE stop burnout, it's not all about the money), nurses work much more than their paid hours. Nurses don't necessarily need degrees. Cost of training and student loans etc. should be written off incrementally over a reasonable period (say 20 years) of working for the NHS. So, work for the NHS for 30 years and no repayments are due. If you're suggesting the removal of the bursary, then we might as well steal all our nurses from abroad. Immigration issue? Who cares? No, I am saying that any loans the nurses have had to take out to cover their training are paid for by the government over a reasonable period as long as the nurse works for the NHS for that period. Same could apply to all medical professionals. Still not convinced about the degree issue. Nurse degrees are a relatively recent thing." Diploma was replaced by degree in 2009. There were self-funding students undertaking degrees before then. The majority of countries educate nurses to degree level. Nursing has changed so very much over the years. Hospital wards see a greater number of acutely ill patients. We have support services to prevent hospital admission and early discharge. The acuity (dependence rating) of individuals are much higher than yesteryear. You need nurse leaders and all degree nurses are taught as such. Long gone are the days nurses help doctors. They are professional equals. | |||
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