FabSwingers.com forum: Greek artefact row

By *ermbi OP Man
51 weeks ago

Ballyshannon

Sunak spits out dummy after Greek PM wants marbles from the Acropolis back. After pillaging the world of treasures etc the Brits live up to arrogance by not giving artefacts back. Amazing really.

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By (user no longer on site)
51 weeks ago

The old argument about its safer with us is gone mow too, after all the artefacts going missing from the British Museum.

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By *irldnCouple
51 weeks ago

Brighton

Didn’t realise anyone still played marbles!

I’ll get my coat

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By *ercuryMan
51 weeks ago

Grantham

It's widely accepted that the Marbles were legally removed by Elgin. Documents from the early 19th Century seem to bear this out.

However, it's also widely recognised that it was extremely unethical. So let's be fair here, they need to go back to Greece, and probably sooner rather than later.

The UK could play the longer game here, and appease the Greeks. Rishi Sunak was wrong to cancel a meeting with the Greek PM. He could have been holding a joint news conference, saying that a working agreement had been reached to facilitate their return.

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By *orleymanMan
51 weeks ago

Leeds

"Sunak spits out dummy after Greek PM wants marbles from the Acropolis back. After pillaging the world of treasures etc the Brits live up to arrogance by not giving artefacts back. Amazing really. "

Oretty much every country has museums with artifacts that's aren't from their country

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By *otMe66Man
51 weeks ago

Terra Firma

"Sunak spits out dummy after Greek PM wants marbles from the Acropolis back. After pillaging the world of treasures etc the Brits live up to arrogance by not giving artefacts back. Amazing really.

Oretty much every country has museums with artifacts that's aren't from their country"

But that’s okay, because they’re not in England

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By *addad99Man
51 weeks ago

Rotherham /newquay

I think we should keep them if it wasn't for are ancestors we wouldn't be in such a great country I'm proud of everything they did from taking land to going to war if they didn't we wouldn't be here now.

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By *ony 2016Man
51 weeks ago

Huddersfield /derby cinemas

On World at One , Gillian Keegan MP saying The UK is friendly with Greece adding we work well together tackling crime

Maybe Sunak's meeting should have taken place with item 1 being , did we pinch the marbles , if so , let's get this crime sorted out

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By *enSiskoMan
51 weeks ago

Cestus 3

They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
51 weeks ago

Gilfach

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong."

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
51 weeks ago

golden fields

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?"

People aren't inanimate objects.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
51 weeks ago

Gilfach

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong."

"Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?"

"People aren't inanimate objects."

OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?

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By *ony 2016Man
51 weeks ago

Huddersfield /derby cinemas

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?

People aren't inanimate objects.

OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"

If we had pinched them , yes we should

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By (user no longer on site)
51 weeks ago

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?

People aren't inanimate objects.

OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"
Come get these Mini Coopers they are annoying.

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By (user no longer on site)
51 weeks ago

Everybody's loosing their marbles over this thread.

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By (user no longer on site)
51 weeks ago

"I think we should keep them if it wasn't for are ancestors we wouldn't be in such a great country I'm proud of everything they did from taking land to going to war if they didn't we wouldn't be here now."

Your here now because someone made love, not war...

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By *orleymanMan
51 weeks ago

Leeds

"On World at One , Gillian Keegan MP saying The UK is friendly with Greece adding we work well together tackling crime

Maybe Sunak's meeting should have taken place with item 1 being , did we pinch the marbles , if so , let's get this crime sorted out "

No crime was involved.

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By *orleymanMan
51 weeks ago

Leeds

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?"

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
51 weeks ago

golden fields

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?

People aren't inanimate objects.

OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"

Not sure how you've jumped from people to cars.

But sure, if British people went to Germany and just took them, brought them here, and the owners wanted them back. Yeah.

If they purchased them after they were imported into the UK. No.

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By *0shadesOfFilthMan
51 weeks ago

nearby

Give them back

And return the West Bank to the Palestinians.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
51 weeks ago

Bournemouth

Possession is 9/10 of the law.

I genuinely have no idea what this is about but fuck 'em

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
51 weeks ago

Gilfach

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong."

"Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?"

"People aren't inanimate objects."

"OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"

"If we had pinched them , yes we should "

But the Elgin marbles weren't pinched, they were purchased in accordance with the law at the time.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
51 weeks ago

golden fields

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?

People aren't inanimate objects.

OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?

If we had pinched them , yes we should

But the Elgin marbles weren't pinched, they were purchased in accordance with the law at the time."

Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
51 weeks ago

Gilfach

"Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin."

Yes, and Elgin bought them from the Ottomans, who were in charge of Greece at the time.

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By *lan157Man
51 weeks ago

a village near Haywards Heath in East Sussex

"Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin.

Yes, and Elgin bought them from the Ottomans, who were in charge of Greece at the time."

I think I have a bed of theirs if they would like it back ?

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By *ired_upMan
51 weeks ago

ashton

"Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin.

Yes, and Elgin bought them from the Ottomans, who were in charge of Greece at the time."

You mean had taken it over through colonialism and therefore diddnt value them or was a deliberate act of cultural elimination.

If The Eiffel Tower as sitting in downtown Milan cos in the mid 1940s the current rulers took it fair and square and sold it legally to the Italians it would be absurd.

This is the same thing.

They should go back as they were there for about 2000 years and we have had the for a few hundred.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
51 weeks ago

Gilfach

"Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin."

"Yes, and Elgin bought them from the Ottomans, who were in charge of Greece at the time."

"You mean had taken it over through colonialism and therefore diddnt value them or was a deliberate act of cultural elimination."

So you're saying that Lord Elgin should have had the foresight to realise that the Ottoman Empire which had governed the country for the past 300 years, would soon fall, and that the Greeks would re-take the country.

Whether the marbles were being lost through cultural elimination, or just simple neglect, what do you think Lord Elgin should have done? Should he have just left them there to be burned by the locals?

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By (user no longer on site)
51 weeks ago

It should all go back.

British museums should only have stuff in them from Britain.

As long as that isn’t racist.

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By *mateur100Man
51 weeks ago

nr faversham

I have to say that, whilst I don't have any knowledge of the Greek PM other than his appearance on a certain BBC programme on Sunday morning, I am aware that our current government is filled with bullshitters so I'm inclined to side with the Greeks

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By *wisted999Man
51 weeks ago

North Bucks

Lord Elgin did what he thought was best at the time.

Greece should have them back perhaps at the cost today of what the British Government paid Elgin for.

They could perhaps then put that sum toward the 40 hospitals they were going to build.

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By *ercuryMan
51 weeks ago

Grantham

"Lord Elgin did what he thought was best at the time.

Greece should have them back perhaps at the cost today of what the British Government paid Elgin for.

They could perhaps then put that sum toward the 40 hospitals they were going to build.

Sorry, but in todays money, they would go for just short of £4m.

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By *wisted999Man
51 weeks ago

North Bucks

"Lord Elgin did what he thought was best at the time.

Greece should have them back perhaps at the cost today of what the British Government paid Elgin for.

They could perhaps then put that sum toward the 40 hospitals they were going to build.

Sorry, but in todays money, they would go for just short of £4m."

My flippancy aside around hospitals. 4m would be fair to be honest and the UK would be hard pressed to think of a reason to turn that down.

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By *ermbi OP Man
51 weeks ago

Ballyshannon

I can imagine the almighty row if the Greek PM snubbed Sunak. Not very statesman like to snub another PM. Playing politics again

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
51 weeks ago

in Lancashire

"I can imagine the almighty row if the Greek PM snubbed Sunak. Not very statesman like to snub another PM. Playing politics again"

Politicians playing politics?

Well fuck my old boots..

The Greek guy was playing politics in talking about it to Starmer..

And vice versa..

It's what they do, those political types..

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By *enSiskoMan
51 weeks ago

Cestus 3

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?"

Depends if the people were st0len or not.

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By *enSiskoMan
51 weeks ago

Cestus 3

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?

People aren't inanimate objects.

OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"

Their sold not st0len

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
51 weeks ago

Gilfach

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong."

"Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?"

"People aren't inanimate objects."

"OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"

"Their sold not st0len"

The marbles weren't st0len either. They were bought by Lord Elgin from the Ottomans, and then sold to the British Museum.

There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
51 weeks ago

golden fields

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?

People aren't inanimate objects.

OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?

Their sold not st0len

The marbles weren't st0len either. They were bought by Lord Elgin from the Ottomans, and then sold to the British Museum.

There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally."

Was that the Greek parliamentary enquiry, or our government enquiry, who concluded that our guy was actually cool, nothing to worry about?

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By *idnight RamblerMan
51 weeks ago

Pershore

The big challenge here is setting a precedent, both moral and legal. If the Elgin marbles are returned, it opens the door for all artefacts in museums to be returned to their place of origin. I suppose in 2023 everything could be 3D scanned anyway and put online. Do we need the actual items in museums gathering dust?

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
51 weeks ago

Gilfach

"There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally."

"Was that the Greek parliamentary enquiry, or our government enquiry, who concluded that our guy was actually cool, nothing to worry about?"

It was a British enquiry. I'm not aware of the Greeks ever having had such an enquiry.

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By *enSiskoMan
51 weeks ago

Cestus 3

"There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally.

Was that the Greek parliamentary enquiry, or our government enquiry, who concluded that our guy was actually cool, nothing to worry about?

It was a British enquiry. I'm not aware of the Greeks ever having had such an enquiry."

The greeks have no need to hold an enquiry, because they know it was st0len and are asking for them to be returned.

If someone came into my house and took something from my history then I would like them to return it.

Wouldn't you.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
51 weeks ago

Bournemouth

"There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally.

Was that the Greek parliamentary enquiry, or our government enquiry, who concluded that our guy was actually cool, nothing to worry about?

It was a British enquiry. I'm not aware of the Greeks ever having had such an enquiry.

The greeks have no need to hold an enquiry, because they know it was st0len and are asking for them to be returned.

If someone came into my house and took something from my history then I would like them to return it.

Wouldn't you."

They were bought from the rulers at the time. It's hardly the same as someone taking something from your house.

On the other hand we should just give up everything we have, and then some people still won't be happy, so we should give up our souls too.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
51 weeks ago

Gilfach

"The greeks have no need to hold an enquiry, because they know it was st0len and are asking for them to be returned."

How do they know they were st0len? The paperwork and a British parliamentary enquiry says they weren't. What evidence do the Greeks have that says otherwise? And how will they know any of that without having some sort of enquiry?

"If someone came into my house and took something from my history then I would like them to return it.

Wouldn't you."

I would, but that's because I have an unbroken chain of ownership of that thing. The Greeks don't have that. The people now living in Greece are not the same ones that were ejected by the Ottomans. To claim ownership of antiquities, the current Greek government would need to prove that the people of Greece today are, at least in part, descendents of the people that used to live in that area 2500 years ago. Not an easy task with the old Greeks having fled the country, and then a 350 year gap in the records.

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By *ithintemptationsCouple
51 weeks ago

plymouth

"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.

Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?

People aren't inanimate objects.

OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"
they are all junk,yes send them back

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By *ip2Man
51 weeks ago

Near Maidenhead

I looked to compare the ancient Greek marbles in London with the similar ones in Berlin.

Why are there ancient Greek marbles in London and in Berlin? Why do the former have a history of controversy and the latter's history seems to me to be less so?

Firstly, the Ottoman empire, that grew from the Black Sea coast of modern-day Turkey, didn't care much about ancient Greek stonework, apparently.

The Ottoman Empire occupied modern-day Turkey and modern-day Greece at the time.

Starting in 1802, Elgin took the treasures from Athens, now a capital city of 3 million, with the permission of the then Ottomans in charge.

From 1879 there was an agreement between the Ottoman Empire and the German government to move sculptures from Pergamon in Turkey to Berlin.

Today, the Pergamon site is near to the modern town of Bergama. Bergama is about 10 km inland from the western coast of Turkey. Bergama has a population of about 60,000.

In England, according to Britannica, "Elgin was assailed for rapacity, vandalism, and dishonesty in hauling the Greek treasures to London. Lord Byron and many others attacked Elgin’s actions in print".

Elgin published a defence of his actions and it appears that a committee of Parliament agreed, as has been noted above.

On the Museum Island in Berlin, traces of paint on the sculptures have been preserved.

I don't know if there is a controversy on whether the treasures in Berlin should be returned to Turkey.

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By *enSiskoMan
51 weeks ago

Cestus 3

"There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally.

Was that the Greek parliamentary enquiry, or our government enquiry, who concluded that our guy was actually cool, nothing to worry about?

It was a British enquiry. I'm not aware of the Greeks ever having had such an enquiry.

The greeks have no need to hold an enquiry, because they know it was st0len and are asking for them to be returned.

If someone came into my house and took something from my history then I would like them to return it.

Wouldn't you.

They were bought from the rulers at the time. It's hardly the same as someone taking something from your house.

On the other hand we should just give up everything we have, and then some people still won't be happy, so we should give up our souls too. "

Not our souls, the government as they are a soulless lot.

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By *aid backMan
51 weeks ago

by a lake with my rod out

The simple solution is to return the artefacts but ask them to be loaned back for X number of years let's say 5 that way the British museum gets to keep them for a set time so people who want to see for a last time can.

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By *eroy1000Man
51 weeks ago

milton keynes

"I looked to compare the ancient Greek marbles in London with the similar ones in Berlin.