FabSwingers.com forum: Brexit bonus

By *allySlinky OP Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Who cares

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By *luv2flirtCouple
over a year ago

Manchester

Brexit had no baring whatsoever on vaccines as we had the ability both in and out of the EU to run the vaccine implementation our own way.

As for fastest we we ahead at certain points but eventually fell behind as others caught up and overtop took us. There was no ribbons handed out for a winner.

In answer to your neighbour’s claim NO Brexit didn’t help.

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By *allySlinky OP Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

Thank you for your response

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By *ild_oatsMan
over a year ago

the land of saints & sinners

Blue UK passports printed in the EU is definitely a Brexit bonus.

As opposed to those pesky burgundy coloured EU ones….

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By *estivalMan
over a year ago

borehamwood

lol dont people get bored of asking this same question over and over again, talk about banging ya head against a wall

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By *allySlinky OP Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

And having to queue up in the alien line rather than using the scanners

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Are we talking about benefits that have been realised ?

Or potential benefits ?

I believe there are some of the former (greater control on immigration, ability to finesse VAT, ability to raise standards)

But tbh I haven't seen many used. In fact, we seem to move in the opposite direction.

But that's not brexit. That's been the government. And if I were a leave voter I'd be raging about this. Even if you thought a good brexit was better than staying, I find it hard to see that this version is better. Again, not a comment on brexit, but HMG.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We could always have had greater control on immigration as EU member. Our govt chose not to use the laws available to it.

Why, you ask?

Because we needed that level of immigration.

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By *coptoCouple
over a year ago

Côte d'Azur & Great Yarmouth

"Brexit had no baring whatsoever on vaccines as we had the ability both in and out of the EU to run the vaccine implementation our own way"

Mmm, not QUITE true... both France and Germany had the facility - and the money - to grab as much expensive Pfizer-BioNTech as they wanted, but this would hardly have been appreciated by the EU's poorer Member States.

Johnson didn't have to answer to anybody, and was simply in the right place at the right time to authorise rapid distribution of the AstraZeneca (Oxford chimpanzee) vaccine and ultimately save hundreds of thousands of lives.

A "Brexit Bonus", but an accidental one...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

""Brexit had no baring whatsoever on vaccines as we had the ability both in and out of the EU to run the vaccine implementation our own way"

A "Brexit Bonus", but an accidental one..."

We were operating under EU regulations when we procured the vaccine.

And I’d argue that hundreds of thousands weren’t saved at all. Our numbers compared to Japan as an example (Who had many more cases and far fewer deaths) were terrible.

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By *orleymanMan
over a year ago

Leeds

Aus deals, news deals.indian trade deals, Ukraine improvements, Japan improvements, cptpp. Invited more lower gdp countries to trade on non tarriff.

Collection of vat and duties to us at 100%

No possibility of shared debt being mooted by the commission again.

No longer being constrained by the commissions insistance on debt to gdp ratio for spending (yes austerity is something the e.u demands all clutch rises follow)

The ability to insist all imports meet OUR standards.

Better visa system for migrants and removal of fom

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Farage has stated that ‘Brexit has failed’

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Farage has stated that ‘Brexit has failed’

And he’s 100% right.

Wasn’t he going to move abroad if it was a disaster?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Farage has stated that ‘Brexit has failed’

And he’s 100% right.

Wasn’t he going to move abroad if it was a disaster? "

Yep, but he obviously hasn’t though

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By *rith47Man
over a year ago

Erith

No, it is not true. End of.

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By *ust RachelTV/TS
over a year ago

Horsham

"Farage has stated that ‘Brexit has failed’

And he’s 100% right.

Wasn’t he going to move abroad if it was a disaster?

Yep, but he obviously hasn’t though "

Maybe they don't want him either lol

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

"lol dont people get bored of asking this same question over and over again, talk about banging ya head against a wall"

True, but millions voted for this, there must be some kind of positive somewhere buried amongst the avalanche of brexit turds.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"lol dont people get bored of asking this same question over and over again, talk about banging ya head against a wall

True, but millions voted for this, there must be some kind of positive somewhere buried amongst the avalanche of brexit turds.

But we can raise our standards. Even though the EU standards are minimums and we always could.

But we can better control immigration. Even though we never utilised the EU laws to better control immigration

But we can do away with VAT. Even though VAT has always been the Tory tax of choice.

Ever get the feeling’ you’ve been cheated?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"lol dont people get bored of asking this same question over and over again, talk about banging ya head against a wall

True, but millions voted for this, there must be some kind of positive somewhere buried amongst the avalanche of brexit turds.

But we can raise our standards. Even though the EU standards are minimums and we always could.

But we can better control immigration. Even though we never utilised the EU laws to better control immigration

But we can do away with VAT. Even though VAT has always been the Tory tax of choice.

Ever get the feeling’ you’ve been cheated? "
TBF we had to set vat to zero across everything. We couldn't vary sales tax across products.

And while we always had more control than we used I believe it is true that we didn't have absolute control.

And we couldn't increase minimums for imports. Just local if I understand pervious threads.

As an earlier comment, we do have more autonomy... But are massively failing to use it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"lol dont people get bored of asking this same question over and over again, talk about banging ya head against a wall

True, but millions voted for this, there must be some kind of positive somewhere buried amongst the avalanche of brexit turds.

But we can raise our standards. Even though the EU standards are minimums and we always could.

But we can better control immigration. Even though we never utilised the EU laws to better control immigration

But we can do away with VAT. Even though VAT has always been the Tory tax of choice.

Ever get the feeling’ you’ve been cheated? TBF we had to set vat to zero across everything. We couldn't vary sales tax across products.

And while we always had more control than we used I believe it is true that we didn't have absolute control.

And we couldn't increase minimums for imports. Just local if I understand pervious threads.

As an earlier comment, we do have more autonomy... But are massively failing to use it. "

Exactly. We’re interested in lowering standards rather than raising them, keeping VAT, and have immigration all wrong.

In other words, Brexit was sold on lies. Quelle surprise.

Or in other

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ? "

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

We negotiated the vaccine deals separately from the EU and made our regulatory decisions independently. We approved the vaccines before the EU and managed to obtain the first vaccines from Pfizer, and administer the vaccine earlier too.

We also agreed terms with AstraZeneca months ahead of the EU, which caused tension and the EU to start threatening legal challenges by stopping the export of vaccines from the EU. This action by the EU played a significant role in the narrative that being out of the EU was benefitting the UK in decision making for itself.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

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By *allySlinky OP Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

So this Brexit Benefit was March 2020. What benefits have we had in the three years since then ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So this Brexit Benefit was March 2020. What benefits have we had in the three years since then ?"

It’s destroying the Tory party

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"So this Brexit Benefit was March 2020. What benefits have we had in the three years since then ?"

Ah, that wasn't the original question and I would say that is moving the goalposts by the proverbial country mile

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By *allySlinky OP Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

Yes you are right. Thanks for answering my original question

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"Yes you are right. Thanks for answering my original question

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"But we can do away with VAT. Even though VAT has always been the Tory tax of choice."

The obvious counter-example is the 'tampon tax'. The UK has wanted to get rid of this for a long time, but while we were in the EU it wasn't permitted. It was the first thing to be changed when we left the EU.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

The positive is it’s cut down my wine consumption.

Because I can’t get hold of the one I really like reliably anymore.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The positive is it’s cut down my wine consumption.

Because I can’t get hold of the one I really like reliably anymore.

If you look online or in supermarkets or wine merchants there is absolutely no wine at all available in the UK since Brexit. Not even the stuff produced in England. Absolutely shocking.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"But we can raise our standards. Even though the EU standards are minimums and we always could."

Well that's true, we could have raised our standards whilst in the EU, but what would have been the point? Other EU nations only had to meet the EU standards, and we couldn't prevent them sending their stuff to the UK. It would have put us at a disadvantage, because our local producers had to meet our high standards, while EU producers didn't have to.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

There are absolutely no benefits to Brexit, none whatsoever.

Every single thing that has happened since 2016 has been negative. You only need to look on these forums for proof

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But we can do away with VAT. Even though VAT has always been the Tory tax of choice.

Germany reduced their tampon tax from 19% to 7% on 1st Jan 2020 as an EU member.

We reduced ours to zero in January 2021, a year after leaving the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But we can raise our standards. Even though the EU standards are minimums and we always could.

What’s the point in high food standards?

Really?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"But we can do away with VAT. Even though VAT has always been the Tory tax of choice.

Germany reduced their tampon tax from 19% to 7% on 1st Jan 2020 as an EU member.

We reduced ours to zero in January 2021, a year after leaving the EU."

Ours was 5% but we couldn't abolish it completely. So Germany reduced theirs but wad still higher than the UKs

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By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7. "

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But we can do away with VAT. Even though VAT has always been the Tory tax of choice.

Germany reduced their tampon tax from 19% to 7% on 1st Jan 2020 as an EU member.

We reduced ours to zero in January 2021, a year after leaving the EU.

Ours was 5% but we couldn't abolish it completely. So Germany reduced theirs but wad still higher than the UKs"

The point is that the EU is sold as this beast which is impossible to change, and yet when you delve into facts - it’s rarely that simple.

I do love Tories waxing lyrical about the EU enforcing VAT though, when it’s the Tory tax of choice, and always has been.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way."

That’s the widely reported excess deaths figure. And yes, there are variations on reporting, but let’s be honest here - the U.K (and indeed the US) were generally abysmal on Covid, from locking down too late, to reopening too early, PPE, vague rules and non-enforcement.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"But we can do away with VAT. Even though VAT has always been the Tory tax of choice.

Germany reduced their tampon tax from 19% to 7% on 1st Jan 2020 as an EU member.

We reduced ours to zero in January 2021, a year after leaving the EU.

Ours was 5% but we couldn't abolish it completely. So Germany reduced theirs but wad still higher than the UKs

The point is that the EU is sold as this beast which is impossible to change, and yet when you delve into facts - it’s rarely that simple.

I do love Tories waxing lyrical about the EU enforcing VAT though, when it’s the Tory tax of choice, and always has been."

No, the point was made that the UK couldn't abolish the tax, you're just trying to twist that point.

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"Yes you are right. Thanks for answering my original question

The reality of Brexit benefits is they will not be realised for many years in some cases.

The mature understanding is we have a new deal with the EU bloc which will not be the same or better as the deal we had as a member, sounds obvious when you say it like that. We now have an ability to build other free trade agreements, we had 71 FTA's whilst in the EU, we retain 68 of those and are building new FTA's.

All of the above will take time to mature, the world, the countries within that world will go through many ups and downs before we can say whether leaving the EU was a good thing or bad.

The question name me some Brexit benefits, is like the question what is a woman, it is loaded and can be used for or against you. The divorce from the EU is fresh, and as a country I believe we need to put it behind us and look to the future, build on what we have and strive for better, that would be the best Brexit benefit we could hope for.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are. "

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are. "

What on earth are you talking about!

The health and age of the nation as a whole would have the most determining factor for deaths.

They got some things wrong like every other country! I think your views here are not considered at all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

What on earth are you talking about!

The health and age of the nation as a whole would have the most determining factor for deaths.

They got some things wrong like every other country! I think your views here are not considered at all.

I’m very fortunate to have an expert in my family - a consultant who specialises in tropical disease and communicable illness.

The govt didn’t just ‘get some things wrong’

They ignored advice, and were actively negligent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though."

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"But we can do away with VAT. Even though VAT has always been the Tory tax of choice."

"The obvious counter-example is the 'tampon tax'. The UK has wanted to get rid of this for a long time, but while we were in the EU it wasn't permitted. It was the first thing to be changed when we left the EU."

"Germany reduced their tampon tax from 19% to 7% on 1st Jan 2020 as an EU member."

Yes, but the UK levied 5%, and was unable to reduce it further as 5% is the lowest possible rate under EU regulations.

"We reduced ours to zero in January 2021, a year after leaving the EU."

Perhaps I should have been more careful with my words. We reduced the rate to zero as soon as we were permitted to do so, i.e. the instant the 'transition period' ended.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

"The positive is it’s cut down my wine consumption.

Because I can’t get hold of the one I really like reliably anymore.

If you look online or in supermarkets or wine merchants there is absolutely no wine at all available in the UK since Brexit. Not even the stuff produced in England. Absolutely shocking. "

Good wine dear boy.

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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago

milton keynes

"But we can do away with VAT. Even though VAT has always been the Tory tax of choice.

Germany reduced their tampon tax from 19% to 7% on 1st Jan 2020 as an EU member.

We reduced ours to zero in January 2021, a year after leaving the EU."

From what I understand the EU set a minimum limit that member states cannot go below. Member States can set rates higher if they choose and lower them again but only as low as the minimum. So if that's correct when Germany reduced their rate, could they have opted to scrap it completely?

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By *amish SMan
over a year ago

Eastleigh

Excess deaths, France stopped recording figures in May 2020, Germany in all but 2 small districts never recorded death rates so had no way of recording the change.

Considering 80% of what I produce is shipped outside the UK, there is no change, EOSS and IOSS was challenging, but that was not related to Brexit and made worse as nearly every EU company and citizen thought EU legislation would not apply to them.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not. "

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them."

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

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By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal. "

Did you care about the figures enough to analyse how they were made up?

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

[Removed by poster at 12/06/23 20:30:41]

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal. "

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ? "

Seriously? If you'd be asking me for more than a couple of days you'd have been on the wrong end of dry slap

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight"

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid."

Compare our procurement to the EU

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

Did you care about the figures enough to analyse how they were made up?

As I said previously, I am fortunate enough to have an expert in communicable disease available on WhatsApp. His opinion on our Covid response is IMO more reliable than what Johnson, The Daily Mail or social media says.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

Did you care about the figures enough to analyse how they were made up?

Of course you are. We all do.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid."

You mean Japan who never locked down and have a fairly passive population.

The Japanese people are the reason they coped so well, it had nothing to do with how the gorvernement dealt with it versus ours.

I'll reiterate, Japan that never locked down, you know, the lockdown that you said we weren't strong enough on.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

Did you care about the figures enough to analyse how they were made up?

Did we procure our vaccines ahead of the EU, yes or no

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

Compare our procurement to the EU"

Which EU nation, specifically?

Because nations could choose to use their own procurement. Which is the point you’re missing. Hungary, for example were one who chose their own path. The U.K. also did, whilst operating under EU legislation.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

Did you care about the figures enough to analyse how they were made up?

Of course you are. We all do."

My brother is a consultant, specialising in tropical disease and communicable disease.

Couldn’t really give a toss whether you believe me or not.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

You mean Japan who never locked down and have a fairly passive population.

The Japanese people are the reason they coped so well, it had nothing to do with how the gorvernement dealt with it versus ours.

I'll reiterate, Japan that never locked down, you know, the lockdown that you said we weren't strong enough on."

Did they close schools and enforce a state of emergency?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

[Removed by poster at 12/06/23 20:48:25]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

You mean Japan who never locked down and have a fairly passive population.

The Japanese people are the reason they coped so well, it had nothing to do with how the gorvernement dealt with it versus ours.

I'll reiterate, Japan that never locked down, you know, the lockdown that you said we weren't strong enough on.

Did they close schools and enforce a state of emergency? "

Yes. As did the UK. The fact remains that Japan never did lock down.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

You mean Japan who never locked down and have a fairly passive population.

The Japanese people are the reason they coped so well, it had nothing to do with how the gorvernement dealt with it versus ours.

I'll reiterate, Japan that never locked down, you know, the lockdown that you said we weren't strong enough on.

Did they close schools and enforce a state of emergency?

Yes. As did the UK. The fact remains that Japan never did lock down."

They also started their Covid preparation 2 months before the U.K.

Are you trying to suggest that lockdown was the wrong approach for the U.K by March 2020? Because that would be quite a bold claim, given the mountain of evidence to suggest otherwise.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

You mean Japan who never locked down and have a fairly passive population.

The Japanese people are the reason they coped so well, it had nothing to do with how the gorvernement dealt with it versus ours.

I'll reiterate, Japan that never locked down, you know, the lockdown that you said we weren't strong enough on.

Did they close schools and enforce a state of emergency?

Yes. As did the UK. The fact remains that Japan never did lock down.

They also started their Covid preparation 2 months before the U.K.

Are you trying to suggest that lockdown was the wrong approach for the U.K by March 2020? Because that would be quite a bold claim, given the mountain of evidence to suggest otherwise. "

They also got it wrong at the start and changed tact.

I'm not trying to suggest what you seem to think.

I'm simply stating that you've stated you wanted harsher locksowns but are trying to use Japan as a pin up nation. Its a bit contradictory.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

You mean Japan who never locked down and have a fairly passive population.

The Japanese people are the reason they coped so well, it had nothing to do with how the gorvernement dealt with it versus ours.

I'll reiterate, Japan that never locked down, you know, the lockdown that you said we weren't strong enough on.

Did they close schools and enforce a state of emergency?

Yes. As did the UK. The fact remains that Japan never did lock down.

They also started their Covid preparation 2 months before the U.K.

Are you trying to suggest that lockdown was the wrong approach for the U.K by March 2020? Because that would be quite a bold claim, given the mountain of evidence to suggest otherwise.

They also got it wrong at the start and changed tact.

I'm not trying to suggest what you seem to think.

I'm simply stating that you've stated you wanted harsher locksowns but are trying to use Japan as a pin up nation. Its a bit contradictory."

No, I’m using Japan as an example of a nation who performed ‘better’ than the U.K. but there are many factors involved, not simply lockdown.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

You mean Japan who never locked down and have a fairly passive population.

The Japanese people are the reason they coped so well, it had nothing to do with how the gorvernement dealt with it versus ours.

I'll reiterate, Japan that never locked down, you know, the lockdown that you said we weren't strong enough on.

Did they close schools and enforce a state of emergency?

Yes. As did the UK. The fact remains that Japan never did lock down.

They also started their Covid preparation 2 months before the U.K.

Are you trying to suggest that lockdown was the wrong approach for the U.K by March 2020? Because that would be quite a bold claim, given the mountain of evidence to suggest otherwise.

They also got it wrong at the start and changed tact.

I'm not trying to suggest what you seem to think.

I'm simply stating that you've stated you wanted harsher locksowns but are trying to use Japan as a pin up nation. Its a bit contradictory.

No, I’m using Japan as an example of a nation who performed ‘better’ than the U.K. but there are many factors involved, not simply lockdown."

Yeah they seemed to perform better. I've already stated, because they have a passive population, it had nothing whatsoever to do with 'governement handling'

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

Compare our procurement to the EU

Which EU nation, specifically?

You either do not understand the difference between procurement and roll out plan, or do not understand the bloc negotiated as one and that is how the UK were able to procure vaccines in front of all EU members. Which is it? This is getting a regular question, and one you ever answer directly.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

Compare our procurement to the EU

Which EU nation, specifically?

If the bloc negotiated as one, why did Hungary go down a different path?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

Compare our procurement to the EU

Which EU nation, specifically?

If the bloc negotiated as one, why did Hungary go down a different path? "

It opted out of the EU deal and took the Chinese vaccine in January 2021 after being critical of the time taking for the EU bloc procure vaccines.

For clarity, the UK administered the first vaccine Dec 2020.

May I add you picked the only EU outlier and it was still not as fast as gaining access to vaccines as the UK.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

Compare our procurement to the EU

Which EU nation, specifically?

If the bloc negotiated as one, why did Hungary go down a different path?

It opted out of the EU deal and took the Chinese vaccine in January 2021 after being critical of the time taking for the EU bloc procure vaccines.

For clarity, the UK administered the first vaccine Dec 2020.

May I add you picked the only EU outlier and it was still not as fast as gaining access to vaccines as the UK. "

And I note that you’ve ignored my point - Britain getting the vaccine first was demonstrably not a Brexit bonus, as opting out was an option available to any nation within the EU.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

Compare our procurement to the EU

Which EU nation, specifically?

If the bloc negotiated as one, why did Hungary go down a different path?

It opted out of the EU deal and took the Chinese vaccine in January 2021 after being critical of the time taking for the EU bloc procure vaccines.

For clarity, the UK administered the first vaccine Dec 2020.

May I add you picked the only EU outlier and it was still not as fast as gaining access to vaccines as the UK.

And I note that you’ve ignored my point - Britain getting the vaccine first was demonstrably not a Brexit bonus, as opting out was an option available to any nation within the EU. "

I'm going to stop now as you are so entrenched in your own version of the truth it is becoming nonsensical.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have been asking my next door neighbour for months to name one Brexit benefit. After months he has come up with one. Fastest Covid Vaccinations in Europe. Is this true ?

There were some benefits to the vaccine rollout that we managed to leverage by not being in the EU.

Overall the benefits of not being in the EU were agility of choice and more importantly speed to procure.

And yet our Covid death tolls were bottom 2 in the G7.

How are you measuring those deaths?

There's %, total number, excess deaths. And you should fully aware that not every country measured the same way.

‘But muh Brexit vaccine’ doesn’t really wash when the figures are as stark as they are.

So you're going with excess death tolls? Within 28 days of contracting covid, regardless of whether covid caused the death or not?

Im not gonna argue the UK dealt with covid perfectly, I don't agree with the figures though.

Figures don’t care whether you agree with them or not.

I'll care about the figures when they're measured in the same way. I might even be able to agree with them.

I cared about figures from March 2020 when we were ‘two weeks behind Italy’ and still refused to lockdown.

From day 1 our response was abysmal.

You will appreciate the quicker response in procurement then, that put the UK in front of the EU and enabled a vaccine roll out plan more than 2 weeks ahead of the EU.

Let me guess, you don’t appreciate the speed to procure because of some whataboutery and unique hindsight

We procured our vaccine whilst operating under EU legislation. In other words, Brexit didn’t speed it up at all.

Compare cases vs deaths for U.K vs Japan if you want to see how ‘well’ we coped with Covid.

Compare our procurement to the EU

Which EU nation, specifically?

If the bloc negotiated as one, why did Hungary go down a different path?

It opted out of the EU deal and took the Chinese vaccine in January 2021 after being critical of the time taking for the EU bloc procure vaccines.

For clarity, the UK administered the first vaccine Dec 2020.

May I add you picked the only EU outlier and it was still not as fast as gaining access to vaccines as the UK.

And I note that you’ve ignored my point - Britain getting the vaccine first was demonstrably not a Brexit bonus, as opting out was an option available to any nation within the EU.

I'm going to stop now as you are so entrenched in your own version of the truth it is becoming nonsensical."

Also known as ‘facts’

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

According to the Institute for Government:

“...none of these successes can be chalked up to Brexit. As the chief executive of the MHRA swiftly pointed out, Mr Hancock was wrong to say that the UK could approve the vaccine early because it was no longer subject to EU rules. The MHRA’s decision was taken in accordance with the relevant EU legislation, which allows member states to grant temporary authorisation for a medicinal product in response to the spread of infectious diseases (among others). This legislation still applies to the UK until the end of the transition period. Any EU member state could have used the same provision of the legislation to approve the vaccine. They decided not to for political and technical reasons, not legal ones.

Similarly, the member states were in no way obliged to take part in the EU’s joint vaccine procurement scheme. The EU has very limited competences for public health under its founding treaties: it can take action only to “support, coordinate or supplement the actions of the Member States”. The EU member states in this case voluntarily decided to opt into the joint procurement scheme. If one or more of them had decided to follow the UK’s path and procure its own vaccines, no one would have stopped them.”

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus."

This starting to become a little painful...

The UK was not in the EU, the UK were not asked to join the joint EU procurement scheme and therefore went about procurement on their own. This led to the UK having the vaccine ahead of the EU member states.

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

The UK obtained and distributed the vaccine to the public ahead of any EU member state. The speed in which the UK procured the vaccine was not held back by the EU, that delay by the EU caused Hungary to procure a vaccine from China, only after being part of the procurement and becoming frustrated with the time being taken.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

So you accept that EU nations were indeed free to undertake their own procurement if they chose to do so? And since we did so whilst still under EU legislation, it was indeed not a Brexit benefit?

Glad we agree.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

So you accept that EU nations were indeed free to undertake their own procurement if they chose to do so? And since we did so whilst still under EU legislation, it was indeed not a Brexit benefit?

Glad we agree. "

Does it feel like you are clinging to greasy pole and throwing out if's, but's and maybe's keeps you from slipping down the pole?

You can't change what happened because it could have happened another way, it happened the way it did and the UK acted independently of the EU and procured faster.

Same as PR, it is not a thing and yet you gauge everything by "if it was".

It seems wishful thinking and fantasy are your comfort blanket

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!"

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

[Removed by poster at 13/06/23 10:14:55]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!"

That was long way of saying yes.

The point is.... If we had have been in the EU, we would have stuck together in the procurement until at some point we felt it was not going how we wanted it to go, and then left like Hungary.

Time wasted and now behind the curve.. Hungary took the Chinese vaccine as a result of walking away after deals had been made with Pfizer by the UK and the EU.

We began our procurement and rollout ahead of the EU, because we were on our own.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!

That was long way of saying yes.

The point is.... If we had have been in the EU, we would have stuck together in the procurement until at some point we felt it was not going how we wanted it to go, and then left like Hungary.

Time wasted and now behind the curve.. Hungary took the Chinese vaccine as a result of walking away after deals had been made with Pfizer by the UK and the EU.

We began our procurement and rollout ahead of the EU, because we were on our own. "

Sounds to me like you’re using speculation that we would have stuck together in procurement.

And incidentally, though we had left the EU, we were in transition - so still operating very much in line with the bloc.

Nobody denies that we were first to procure the vaccine - but it’s demonstrably incorrect to claim that it was because of Brexit.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!

That was long way of saying yes.

The point is.... If we had have been in the EU, we would have stuck together in the procurement until at some point we felt it was not going how we wanted it to go, and then left like Hungary.

Time wasted and now behind the curve.. Hungary took the Chinese vaccine as a result of walking away after deals had been made with Pfizer by the UK and the EU.

We began our procurement and rollout ahead of the EU, because we were on our own.

Sounds to me like you’re using speculation that we would have stuck together in procurement.

And incidentally, though we had left the EU, we were in transition - so still operating very much in line with the bloc.

Nobody denies that we were first to procure the vaccine - but it’s demonstrably incorrect to claim that it was because of Brexit. "

It was or we would have been delayed as we discussed being in or out of the joint procurement.

Simple really

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!

That was long way of saying yes.

The point is.... If we had have been in the EU, we would have stuck together in the procurement until at some point we felt it was not going how we wanted it to go, and then left like Hungary.

Time wasted and now behind the curve.. Hungary took the Chinese vaccine as a result of walking away after deals had been made with Pfizer by the UK and the EU.

We began our procurement and rollout ahead of the EU, because we were on our own.

Sounds to me like you’re using speculation that we would have stuck together in procurement.

And incidentally, though we had left the EU, we were in transition - so still operating very much in line with the bloc.

Nobody denies that we were first to procure the vaccine - but it’s demonstrably incorrect to claim that it was because of Brexit.

It was or we would have been delayed as we discussed being in or out of the joint procurement.

Simple really"

Do you have evidence that such discussions didn’t take place? Because I strongly suspect that they did.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!

That was long way of saying yes.

The point is.... If we had have been in the EU, we would have stuck together in the procurement until at some point we felt it was not going how we wanted it to go, and then left like Hungary.

Time wasted and now behind the curve.. Hungary took the Chinese vaccine as a result of walking away after deals had been made with Pfizer by the UK and the EU.

We began our procurement and rollout ahead of the EU, because we were on our own.

Sounds to me like you’re using speculation that we would have stuck together in procurement.

And incidentally, though we had left the EU, we were in transition - so still operating very much in line with the bloc.

Nobody denies that we were first to procure the vaccine - but it’s demonstrably incorrect to claim that it was because of Brexit.

It was or we would have been delayed as we discussed being in or out of the joint procurement.

Simple really

Do you have evidence that such discussions didn’t take place? Because I strongly suspect that they did. "

You are asking me for evidence that discussions didn't take place, that is a classic! And the "I suspect" to top it off...

I have no evidence that discussions happened, so does that mean they didn't take place

We went alone and procured alone as we were no longer part of the EU bloc.

Not part of the EU, hadn't been for months.

I will say this again, I voted to remain but I'm not that bitter that I cannot see the wood for the trees.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!

That was long way of saying yes.

The point is.... If we had have been in the EU, we would have stuck together in the procurement until at some point we felt it was not going how we wanted it to go, and then left like Hungary.

Time wasted and now behind the curve.. Hungary took the Chinese vaccine as a result of walking away after deals had been made with Pfizer by the UK and the EU.

We began our procurement and rollout ahead of the EU, because we were on our own.

Sounds to me like you’re using speculation that we would have stuck together in procurement.

And incidentally, though we had left the EU, we were in transition - so still operating very much in line with the bloc.

Nobody denies that we were first to procure the vaccine - but it’s demonstrably incorrect to claim that it was because of Brexit.

It was or we would have been delayed as we discussed being in or out of the joint procurement.

Simple really

Do you have evidence that such discussions didn’t take place? Because I strongly suspect that they did. "

NotMe sorry but you are totally speculating and clutching at straws.

I can guarantee that the UK had initial discussions with the EU and decided to not join the joint procurement. There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway). The UK already ploughed its own path within the EU anyway so while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

This cannot be claimed as a brexit benefit.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!

That was long way of saying yes.

The point is.... If we had have been in the EU, we would have stuck together in the procurement until at some point we felt it was not going how we wanted it to go, and then left like Hungary.

Time wasted and now behind the curve.. Hungary took the Chinese vaccine as a result of walking away after deals had been made with Pfizer by the UK and the EU.

We began our procurement and rollout ahead of the EU, because we were on our own.

Sounds to me like you’re using speculation that we would have stuck together in procurement.

And incidentally, though we had left the EU, we were in transition - so still operating very much in line with the bloc.

Nobody denies that we were first to procure the vaccine - but it’s demonstrably incorrect to claim that it was because of Brexit.

It was or we would have been delayed as we discussed being in or out of the joint procurement.

Simple really

Do you have evidence that such discussions didn’t take place? Because I strongly suspect that they did.

NotMe sorry but you are totally speculating and clutching at straws.

This cannot be claimed as a brexit benefit."

Spin it however you want you are speculating what discussions happened or did not happen, we were not part of the EU, they were slower than the UK in arriving at deals, meaning we made our procurement plans and obtained Pfizer vaccines first.

The EU took longer to get procurement deals and even started threatening to prevent production of other vaccines leaving the EU because we had signed our deals.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!

That was long way of saying yes.

The point is.... If we had have been in the EU, we would have stuck together in the procurement until at some point we felt it was not going how we wanted it to go, and then left like Hungary.

Time wasted and now behind the curve.. Hungary took the Chinese vaccine as a result of walking away after deals had been made with Pfizer by the UK and the EU.

We began our procurement and rollout ahead of the EU, because we were on our own.

Sounds to me like you’re using speculation that we would have stuck together in procurement.

And incidentally, though we had left the EU, we were in transition - so still operating very much in line with the bloc.

Nobody denies that we were first to procure the vaccine - but it’s demonstrably incorrect to claim that it was because of Brexit.

It was or we would have been delayed as we discussed being in or out of the joint procurement.

Simple really

Do you have evidence that such discussions didn’t take place? Because I strongly suspect that they did.

You are asking me for evidence that discussions didn't take place, that is a classic! And the "I suspect" to top it off...

I have no evidence that discussions happened, so does that mean they didn't take place

We went alone and procured alone as we were no longer part of the EU bloc.

Not part of the EU, hadn't been for months.

I will say this again, I voted to remain but I'm not that bitter that I cannot see the wood for the trees.

Were we, or were we not in the transition period?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

...

while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have."

It seems odd to be confident of your opinion, despite admitting that there is no way of knowing what would have happened. It's almost as if you made up your mind in 2016, and now view all events through that lens.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!

That was long way of saying yes.

The point is.... If we had have been in the EU, we would have stuck together in the procurement until at some point we felt it was not going how we wanted it to go, and then left like Hungary.

Time wasted and now behind the curve.. Hungary took the Chinese vaccine as a result of walking away after deals had been made with Pfizer by the UK and the EU.

We began our procurement and rollout ahead of the EU, because we were on our own.

Sounds to me like you’re using speculation that we would have stuck together in procurement.

And incidentally, though we had left the EU, we were in transition - so still operating very much in line with the bloc.

Nobody denies that we were first to procure the vaccine - but it’s demonstrably incorrect to claim that it was because of Brexit.

It was or we would have been delayed as we discussed being in or out of the joint procurement.

Simple really

Do you have evidence that such discussions didn’t take place? Because I strongly suspect that they did.

You are asking me for evidence that discussions didn't take place, that is a classic! And the "I suspect" to top it off...

I have no evidence that discussions happened, so does that mean they didn't take place

We went alone and procured alone as we were no longer part of the EU bloc.

Not part of the EU, hadn't been for months.

I will say this again, I voted to remain but I'm not that bitter that I cannot see the wood for the trees.

Were we, or were we not in the transition period? "

We have gone round in circles for too long, I think you are getting yourself mixed up with approval of the vaccine use and procurement of the vaccine.

I said I wasn't going to get into this any further and I did, lessons for me!!

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"According to the Institute for Government:

FullFact also agree with this as do others. Not a Brexit Bonus.

This starting to become a little painful...

If we had remained in the EU, we would have certainly been part of the joint procurement as that was the directive from the top.

Those are the facts of the matter, and can be read with any slant people wish to read it.

Ah ok so you don’t agree with the chief executive of the MHRA! Come on NotMe I think he knows more than you about the details!

Yes or no answer...

Who procured the Pfizer vaccine first: THE EU or UK.

Yes the UK procured more quickly. I don’t think anyone is or can dispute this.

However, that is NOT because of Brexit and cannot be claimed as a Brexit benefit.

The greasy pole analogy you put out there can be thrown back at you. You need to read the quote I provided more closely. As confirmed by THE expert from the MHRA:

1. EU member states are able to take sovereign decisions (there’s that sovereignty word) over public health issues.

2. EU member states are not obliged to work together to address public health issues thought they can choose to VOLUNTARILY join joint initiatives.

3. Had the UK still been part of the EU they could have still taken the route they actually did take. Being in the EU would not have stopped that.

4. Actually this was during the transition period anyway so the UK was still subject to EU regulations, which clearly didn’t hamper the UK approach.

Ergo not a brexit benefit!

That was long way of saying yes.

The point is.... If we had have been in the EU, we would have stuck together in the procurement until at some point we felt it was not going how we wanted it to go, and then left like Hungary.

Time wasted and now behind the curve.. Hungary took the Chinese vaccine as a result of walking away after deals had been made with Pfizer by the UK and the EU.

We began our procurement and rollout ahead of the EU, because we were on our own.

Sounds to me like you’re using speculation that we would have stuck together in procurement.

And incidentally, though we had left the EU, we were in transition - so still operating very much in line with the bloc.

Nobody denies that we were first to procure the vaccine - but it’s demonstrably incorrect to claim that it was because of Brexit.

It was or we would have been delayed as we discussed being in or out of the joint procurement.

Simple really

Do you have evidence that such discussions didn’t take place? Because I strongly suspect that they did.

You are asking me for evidence that discussions didn't take place, that is a classic! And the "I suspect" to top it off...

I have no evidence that discussions happened, so does that mean they didn't take place

We went alone and procured alone as we were no longer part of the EU bloc.

Not part of the EU, hadn't been for months.

I will say this again, I voted to remain but I'm not that bitter that I cannot see the wood for the trees.

Were we, or were we not in the transition period?

We have gone round in circles for too long, I think you are getting yourself mixed up with approval of the vaccine use and procurement of the vaccine.

I said I wasn't going to get into this any further and I did, lessons for me!!

We have gone round in circles, you’ve been given the facts of the situation and still cling to your beliefs above them. That’s your prerogative.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

...

while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

Taking two different points and conflating them is a bad look and out of character for you.

We have no way of knowing. It is speculation. But why can NotMe speculate and I cannot? I was using the same argument.

The key point is the vaccine rollout was not a brexit benefit. That’s not spin. The other posts present facts to demonstrate this and evidenced in an attributed quote (not my opinion).

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

...

while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

Taking two different points and conflating them is a bad look and out of character for you.

We have no way of knowing. It is speculation. But why can NotMe speculate and I cannot? I was using the same argument.

The key point is the vaccine rollout was not a brexit benefit. That’s not spin. The other posts present facts to demonstrate this and evidenced in an attributed quote (not my opinion)."

Tbf, you didn't say you speculate, you said you can guarantee. Your comment sounded as if you were speaking in facts, whilst NotMe was speculating.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

...

while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

Taking two different points and conflating them is a bad look and out of character for you.

We have no way of knowing. It is speculation. But why can NotMe speculate and I cannot? I was using the same argument.

The key point is the vaccine rollout was not a brexit benefit. That’s not spin. The other posts present facts to demonstrate this and evidenced in an attributed quote (not my opinion).

Tbf, you didn't say you speculate, you said you can guarantee. Your comment sounded as if you were speaking in facts, whilst NotMe was speculating. "

Fuck me sometimes this place is hard. Got less push back on my dissertation!

Let’s break this down shall we...

"I can guarantee that the UK had initial discussions with the EU and decided to not join the joint procurement. "

I guaranteed discussions took place even though the UK was in transition from EU. I know this happened. I can’t prove (well actually I probably could but really cba)

"There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway)."

We cannot possibly know if the decision to not be part of joint activity would have been different.

"The UK already ploughed its own path within the EU anyway so while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have."

NotMe speculated so I speculated and based my belief on past actions undertaken by the UK (eg Iraq, Afghanistan, not in Shengen, not in Euro etc) in other words the UK even as a member of the EU sometimes took a different path. Ergo no reason to claim inarguably that the UK would have been part of the EU joint vaccine approach as claimed/speculated by NotMe.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago

milton keynes

A bit of an aside but in the end how many went down the EU route and how many went it alone. I understand from above posts that Hungary went alone and sourced from China. How many others took that route?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

...

while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

Taking two different points and conflating them is a bad look and out of character for you.

We have no way of knowing. It is speculation. But why can NotMe speculate and I cannot? I was using the same argument.

The key point is the vaccine rollout was not a brexit benefit. That’s not spin. The other posts present facts to demonstrate this and evidenced in an attributed quote (not my opinion).

Tbf, you didn't say you speculate, you said you can guarantee. Your comment sounded as if you were speaking in facts, whilst NotMe was speculating.

Fuck me sometimes this place is hard. Got less push back on my dissertation!

Let’s break this down shall we...

I can guarantee that the UK had initial discussions with the EU and decided to not join the joint procurement.

I guaranteed discussions took place even though the UK was in transition from EU. I know this happened. I can’t prove (well actually I probably could but really cba)

There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

We cannot possibly know if the decision to not be part of joint activity would have been different.

The UK already ploughed its own path within the EU anyway so while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

This place most certainly is hard work, it goes both ways though.

People stating 'I guarantee it happened but either can't prove or can't be arsed to prove it' certainly doesn't help.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

...

while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

Taking two different points and conflating them is a bad look and out of character for you.

We have no way of knowing. It is speculation. But why can NotMe speculate and I cannot? I was using the same argument.

The key point is the vaccine rollout was not a brexit benefit. That’s not spin. The other posts present facts to demonstrate this and evidenced in an attributed quote (not my opinion).

Tbf, you didn't say you speculate, you said you can guarantee. Your comment sounded as if you were speaking in facts, whilst NotMe was speculating.

Fuck me sometimes this place is hard. Got less push back on my dissertation!

Let’s break this down shall we...

I can guarantee that the UK had initial discussions with the EU and decided to not join the joint procurement.

I guaranteed discussions took place even though the UK was in transition from EU. I know this happened. I can’t prove (well actually I probably could but really cba)

There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

We cannot possibly know if the decision to not be part of joint activity would have been different.

The UK already ploughed its own path within the EU anyway so while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

This place most certainly is hard work, it goes both ways though.

People stating 'I guarantee it happened but either can't prove or can't be arsed to prove it' certainly doesn't help.

Because to prove reveals too much information about me for a swinger site. If my track record on here is not enough to give some credibility when I say “guarantee” then so be it. I rarely say things like that or resort to hyperbole.

With maybe two exceptions, I treat everyone on here with respect and do my best to put forward considered arguments. In this case the Chief Exec of the MHRA says this was not a brexit benefit. No disrespect to NotMe (he and I have agreed on some things and politely disagreed on some things over the years) but the MHRA are experts and he is not (unless he is then he may need to say).

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"A bit of an aside but in the end how many went down the EU route and how many went it alone. I understand from above posts that Hungary went alone and sourced from China. How many others took that route?"

Hungary was the only EU member state to break away from the EU joint procurement after the deal with Pfizer and the EU were known, they decided to opt out.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Simple question, regardless of speculation on intent could we have some what we did whilst in the EU?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Simple question, regardless of speculation on intent could we have some what we did whilst in the EU?

Done

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

...

while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

Taking two different points and conflating them is a bad look and out of character for you.

We have no way of knowing. It is speculation. But why can NotMe speculate and I cannot? I was using the same argument.

The key point is the vaccine rollout was not a brexit benefit. That’s not spin. The other posts present facts to demonstrate this and evidenced in an attributed quote (not my opinion).

Tbf, you didn't say you speculate, you said you can guarantee. Your comment sounded as if you were speaking in facts, whilst NotMe was speculating.

Fuck me sometimes this place is hard. Got less push back on my dissertation!

Let’s break this down shall we...

I can guarantee that the UK had initial discussions with the EU and decided to not join the joint procurement.

I guaranteed discussions took place even though the UK was in transition from EU. I know this happened. I can’t prove (well actually I probably could but really cba)

There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

We cannot possibly know if the decision to not be part of joint activity would have been different.

The UK already ploughed its own path within the EU anyway so while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

This place most certainly is hard work, it goes both ways though.

People stating 'I guarantee it happened but either can't prove or can't be arsed to prove it' certainly doesn't help.

I'm not a member of MHRA or an expert in the field.

MRHA as far as I know are not a political organisation. What I know they commented on was the vaccine approval being not a Brexit benefit.

That is not the procurement of the vaccine which is the only thing I have discussed.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"Simple question, regardless of speculation on intent could we have some what we did whilst in the EU?

Done "

Yes but slower

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"Simple question, regardless of speculation on intent could we have some what we did whilst in the EU?

Done

Yes but slower"

You do not know that! There is no way of knowing if it would have been slower! As the UK was able to take their own path to procurement, and as initial discussion with the EU did take place before the UK decided on the chosen route, then why would that process have been any different or any slower? It could have happened in an identical way!

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Simple question, regardless of speculation on intent could we have some what we did whilst in the EU?

Done

Yes but slower"

Speculation

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"Simple question, regardless of speculation on intent could we have some what we did whilst in the EU?

Done

Yes but slower

Because the outcome shows the actual true speed to market. The UK got their contracts in place before the EU and received their first batches of Pfizer before the EU. The AstraZeneca deal was also ahead of the EU and caused many problems.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"Simple question, regardless of speculation on intent could we have some what we did whilst in the EU?

Done

Yes but slower

Yes in which case it could be argued that had the UK been part of the EU approach they may have succeeded in driving a faster outcome for everyone!

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"Simple question, regardless of speculation on intent could we have some what we did whilst in the EU?

Done

Yes but slower

Yes in which case it could be argued that had the UK been part of the EU approach they may have succeeded in driving a faster outcome for everyone! "

They wasn't and they were faster than the EU.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

...

while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

Taking two different points and conflating them is a bad look and out of character for you.

We have no way of knowing. It is speculation. But why can NotMe speculate and I cannot? I was using the same argument.

The key point is the vaccine rollout was not a brexit benefit. That’s not spin. The other posts present facts to demonstrate this and evidenced in an attributed quote (not my opinion).

Tbf, you didn't say you speculate, you said you can guarantee. Your comment sounded as if you were speaking in facts, whilst NotMe was speculating.

Fuck me sometimes this place is hard. Got less push back on my dissertation!

Let’s break this down shall we...

I can guarantee that the UK had initial discussions with the EU and decided to not join the joint procurement.

I guaranteed discussions took place even though the UK was in transition from EU. I know this happened. I can’t prove (well actually I probably could but really cba)

There is no way of knowing if that decision would have been different had the UK still been a full EU member (despite being in transition anyway).

We cannot possibly know if the decision to not be part of joint activity would have been different.

The UK already ploughed its own path within the EU anyway so while you are confident the UK would have joined the joint procurement, I am confident the UK would not have.

This place most certainly is hard work, it goes both ways though.

People stating 'I guarantee it happened but either can't prove or can't be arsed to prove it' certainly doesn't help.

I'm certainly not arguing that the MHRA were wrong. Merely offering a perspective as to why 'this place is hard work'.

We're all guilty of it at times.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"Simple question, regardless of speculation on intent could we have some what we did whilst in the EU?

Done

Yes but slower

Yes in which case it could be argued that had the UK been part of the EU approach they may have succeeded in driving a faster outcome for everyone!

They wasn't and they were faster than the EU.

We know that and nobody has argued otherwise but this is not a brexit benefit because the UK could have taken the same approach as a full member (and did so while in transition).