Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Politics |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Leopard and Abraham's use the same ammunition.120mm." Have you ever serviced an Abraham's jet engine. And as for the British challenger 2 well you would need a refinery just to supply them with fule I think it's about a 100 mile range So what use are US 120mm shels in howlwiters that take 150mm or 152mm or 6" Personal I think that is one of the reasons the West has given ammunition to Ukraine its getting rid of old stock. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As the Ukraine is not even a member of NATO should members be running stocks low anyway " Yes if we don't stop the Russians now NATO will be next if they don't respect Ukraine as a border then they don't see any boarders. Ukraine would have been a launch pad in to Europe | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Leopard and Abraham's use the same ammunition.120mm. Have you ever serviced an Abraham's jet engine. And as for the British challenger 2 well you would need a refinery just to supply them with fule I think it's about a 100 mile range So what use are US 120mm shels in howlwiters that take 150mm or 152mm or 6" Personal I think that is one of the reasons the West has given ammunition to Ukraine its getting rid of old stock. " howitzers are 155mm NATO standard. Abrahams has a gas turbine not a jet engine. It' modular if engine goes it can be changed in a hour. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Leopard and Abraham's use the same ammunition.120mm. Have you ever serviced an Abraham's jet engine. And as for the British challenger 2 well you would need a refinery just to supply them with fule I think it's about a 100 mile range So what use are US 120mm shels in howlwiters that take 150mm or 152mm or 6" Personal I think that is one of the reasons the West has given ammunition to Ukraine its getting rid of old stock. howitzers are 155mm NATO standard. Abrahams has a gas turbine not a jet engine. It' modular if engine goes it can be changed in a hour." So what is the difference between a gas turbine and a jet engine. Nato is mainly 155mm soviet is 152mm Oh I just googled this.. All jet engines, which are also called gas turbines, work on the same principle. The engine sucks air in at the front with a fan. A compressor raises the pressure of the air. And how meny much training is needed to service this turbine. Where is the fule coming from and how will be changing the modules on the Battle field US traind engineers. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Leopard and Abraham's use the same ammunition.120mm. Have you ever serviced an Abraham's jet engine. And as for the British challenger 2 well you would need a refinery just to supply them with fule I think it's about a 100 mile range So what use are US 120mm shels in howlwiters that take 150mm or 152mm or 6" Personal I think that is one of the reasons the West has given ammunition to Ukraine its getting rid of old stock. howitzers are 155mm NATO standard. Abrahams has a gas turbine not a jet engine. It' modular if engine goes it can be changed in a hour. So what is the difference between a gas turbine and a jet engine. Nato is mainly 155mm soviet is 152mm Oh I just googled this.. All jet engines, which are also called gas turbines, work on the same principle. The engine sucks air in at the front with a fan. A compressor raises the pressure of the air. And how meny much training is needed to service this turbine. Where is the fule coming from and how will be changing the modules on the Battle field US traind engineers. " I was in the US Army my husband was a Chinook pilot. One engine produces shaft horsepower the other the jet engine produces thrust. Helicopters and the Abraham are gas turbine. The modular design of the Abrahams powerplant can be changed with just regular mechanics you do not need a engineering degree. It's basically plug and play. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Leopard and Abraham's use the same ammunition.120mm. Have you ever serviced an Abraham's jet engine. And as for the British challenger 2 well you would need a refinery just to supply them with fule I think it's about a 100 mile range So what use are US 120mm shels in howlwiters that take 150mm or 152mm or 6" Personal I think that is one of the reasons the West has given ammunition to Ukraine its getting rid of old stock. howitzers are 155mm NATO standard. Abrahams has a gas turbine not a jet engine. It' modular if engine goes it can be changed in a hour. So what is the difference between a gas turbine and a jet engine. Nato is mainly 155mm soviet is 152mm Oh I just googled this.. All jet engines, which are also called gas turbines, work on the same principle. The engine sucks air in at the front with a fan. A compressor raises the pressure of the air. And how meny much training is needed to service this turbine. Where is the fule coming from and how will be changing the modules on the Battle field US traind engineers. I was in the US Army my husband was a Chinook pilot. One engine produces shaft horsepower the other the jet engine produces thrust. Helicopters and the Abraham are gas turbine. The modular design of the Abrahams powerplant can be changed with just regular mechanics you do not need a engineering degree. It's basically plug and play." So you disagree that a gas turbine is a get engine I had to double check and Google it to be honest. And another surch The turbine engine works with a range of fuels, including ordinary gasoline, diesel fuel and jet fuel. I have done mechanics but can't change van injector on my van now as it to tech. I'm not saying the US tank is not the best in the world just think its a step to far for Ukraine mechanics to maintain on the Battle field. So if the power unit can be changed in an hour I guess 1 guy can un bolt it lift it out an put a spare in, in that 1 hour. It took my garage 2 days to get the parts and change 2 injectors. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Leopard and Abraham's use the same ammunition.120mm. Have you ever serviced an Abraham's jet engine. And as for the British challenger 2 well you would need a refinery just to supply them with fule I think it's about a 100 mile range So what use are US 120mm shels in howlwiters that take 150mm or 152mm or 6" Personal I think that is one of the reasons the West has given ammunition to Ukraine its getting rid of old stock. howitzers are 155mm NATO standard. Abrahams has a gas turbine not a jet engine. It' modular if engine goes it can be changed in a hour. So what is the difference between a gas turbine and a jet engine. Nato is mainly 155mm soviet is 152mm Oh I just googled this.. All jet engines, which are also called gas turbines, work on the same principle. The engine sucks air in at the front with a fan. A compressor raises the pressure of the air. And how meny much training is needed to service this turbine. Where is the fule coming from and how will be changing the modules on the Battle field US traind engineers. I was in the US Army my husband was a Chinook pilot. One engine produces shaft horsepower the other the jet engine produces thrust. Helicopters and the Abraham are gas turbine. The modular design of the Abrahams powerplant can be changed with just regular mechanics you do not need a engineering degree. It's basically plug and play." So was he on the CH47D | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So what is the difference between a gas turbine and a jet engine." A gas turbine is a device which uses burning fuel to accelerate its own air intake, thus maximising power. Most gas turbines have systems to extract the energy from the resulting airflow, and turn it into useful power. A jet engine is a gas turbine that doesn't attempt to extract power from the airflow, but instead is designed for maximum flow speed. The airflow can then be directed so that it produces thrust to move a vehicle. Jet engines stopped being used on commercial aircraft decades ago, in favour of turbo-fan engines. The military kept using them for quite a while, but nothing built in the last decade will have a jet engine. In general, if it's long and thin, it's a jet engine. If it's short and squat, it's a gas turbine. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So what is the difference between a gas turbine and a jet engine. A gas turbine is a device which uses burning fuel to accelerate its own air intake, thus maximising power. Most gas turbines have systems to extract the energy from the resulting airflow, and turn it into useful power. A jet engine is a gas turbine that doesn't attempt to extract power from the airflow, but instead is designed for maximum flow speed. The airflow can then be directed so that it produces thrust to move a vehicle. Jet engines stopped being used on commercial aircraft decades ago, in favour of turbo-fan engines. The military kept using them for quite a while, but nothing built in the last decade will have a jet engine. In general, if it's long and thin, it's a jet engine. If it's short and squat, it's a gas turbine." I think you just came up with some new colloquialisms for different shaped cocks  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So what is the difference between a gas turbine and a jet engine." "A gas turbine is a device which uses burning fuel to accelerate its own air intake, thus maximising power. Most gas turbines have systems to extract the energy from the resulting airflow, and turn it into useful power. A jet engine is a gas turbine that doesn't attempt to extract power from the airflow, but instead is designed for maximum flow speed. The airflow can then be directed so that it produces thrust to move a vehicle. Jet engines stopped being used on commercial aircraft decades ago, in favour of turbo-fan engines. The military kept using them for quite a while, but nothing built in the last decade will have a jet engine. In general, if it's long and thin, it's a jet engine. If it's short and squat, it's a gas turbine." "I think you just came up with some new colloquialisms for different shaped cocks" Oh dear. I used the word 'thrust' too. How Freudian. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Leopard and Abraham's use the same ammunition.120mm. Have you ever serviced an Abraham's jet engine. And as for the British challenger 2 well you would need a refinery just to supply them with fule I think it's about a 100 mile range So what use are US 120mm shels in howlwiters that take 150mm or 152mm or 6" Personal I think that is one of the reasons the West has given ammunition to Ukraine its getting rid of old stock. " While I disagree with Blu on many things, her and his US military service means they sure do know their weapons! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. " I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this." There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Never realised there was so many swingers in the military strategy field..." If Ukraine is unable to stop Russia a lot more of us will soon be getting a rushed military education  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit." Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money  . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life."What? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Weapons no ammunition possible for some. Some tanks use 6" some 152mm Some 155mm some 157mm so it's hard to make all that is needed. General Dynamics, in Hadrings is running 24/7 so are other companies that supply General Dynamics but that's more hi tech not ammunition for older tech. It like having a petrol car when only diseal is available. That's why the German leopard tank is so important one brand one supply chain yes the American tank is the best but it fires 6" shells only made In the US. The British tank is good but completely different to run and maintenan " Fun fact. Leo and Abrams have the same main gun German design. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Leopard and Abraham's use the same ammunition.120mm. Have you ever serviced an Abraham's jet engine. And as for the British challenger 2 well you would need a refinery just to supply them with fule I think it's about a 100 mile range So what use are US 120mm shels in howlwiters that take 150mm or 152mm or 6" Personal I think that is one of the reasons the West has given ammunition to Ukraine its getting rid of old stock. howitzers are 155mm NATO standard. Abrahams has a gas turbine not a jet engine. It' modular if engine goes it can be changed in a hour. So what is the difference between a gas turbine and a jet engine. Nato is mainly 155mm soviet is 152mm Oh I just googled this.. All jet engines, which are also called gas turbines, work on the same principle. The engine sucks air in at the front with a fan. A compressor raises the pressure of the air. And how meny much training is needed to service this turbine. Where is the fule coming from and how will be changing the modules on the Battle field US traind engineers. I was in the US Army my husband was a Chinook pilot. One engine produces shaft horsepower the other the jet engine produces thrust. Helicopters and the Abraham are gas turbine. The modular design of the Abrahams powerplant can be changed with just regular mechanics you do not need a engineering degree. It's basically plug and play. So was he on the CH47D " MH-47 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Leopard and Abraham's use the same ammunition.120mm. Have you ever serviced an Abraham's jet engine. And as for the British challenger 2 well you would need a refinery just to supply them with fule I think it's about a 100 mile range So what use are US 120mm shels in howlwiters that take 150mm or 152mm or 6" Personal I think that is one of the reasons the West has given ammunition to Ukraine its getting rid of old stock. While I disagree with Blu on many things, her and his US military service means they sure do know their weapons! " lol thanks being in the military and going to VFWs listening to everyone stories peaks your interest in things . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Never realised there was so many swingers in the military strategy field..." A lot of swingers are either serving military soldiers, or involved in the strategy/think tank scene. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Leopard and Abraham's use the same ammunition.120mm. Have you ever serviced an Abraham's jet engine. And as for the British challenger 2 well you would need a refinery just to supply them with fule I think it's about a 100 mile range So what use are US 120mm shels in howlwiters that take 150mm or 152mm or 6" Personal I think that is one of the reasons the West has given ammunition to Ukraine its getting rid of old stock. While I disagree with Blu on many things, her and his US military service means they sure do know their weapons! lol thanks being in the military and going to VFWs listening to everyone stories peaks your interest in things ." Grumpy old vets are the best.lol | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"All main battle tracks have powerpacks (engine and gearbox assembly) which can be changed in under an hour; a good crew can change a Challenger pack in 20 minutes. However, these are heavy and expensive units which get changed often. Unless you have an efficient repair facility close to the front line to push the repaired units back into the system you'll very soon run out of packs. The Abrams complication and thirst for fuel only works with the American complex supply chain so would be unsuitable for Ukraine; all their logistics capability would be dedicated to their Abrams" Someone gets it!  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. " A lot of weapons systems and ammunition nowadays are sophisticated and require specialised and very accurate manufacturing with tolerances well tighter than mass production stuff during WWII. Not to mention we're mostly hearing of NATO countries saying they're running out of stuff like 155mm shells for the Western tube artillery systems donated to Ukraine, because they've sorely slacked off in terms of stockpiling ammunition and just general gear after the Cold War ended. Their whole idea was always to rely on the US to be the arsenal across the Atlantic to ship them arms and ammunition anyway. There's very little resilience and organic capability of various types amongst NATO countries in Western Europe. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"All main battle tracks have powerpacks (engine and gearbox assembly) which can be changed in under an hour; a good crew can change a Challenger pack in 20 minutes. However, these are heavy and expensive units which get changed often. Unless you have an efficient repair facility close to the front line to push the repaired units back into the system you'll very soon run out of packs. The Abrams complication and thirst for fuel only works with the American complex supply chain so would be unsuitable for Ukraine; all their logistics capability would be dedicated to their Abrams Someone gets it! "Ukraine bought a bunch of fuel trucks also they getting M88s for field servicing tanks.Guess we shall see. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Weapons no ammunition possible for some. Some tanks use 6" some 152mm Some 155mm some 157mm so it's hard to make all that is needed. General Dynamics, in Hadrings is running 24/7 so are other companies that supply General Dynamics but that's more hi tech not ammunition for older tech. It like having a petrol car when only diseal is available. That's why the German leopard tank is so important one brand one supply chain yes the American tank is the best but it fires 6" shells only made In the US. The British tank is good but completely different to run and maintenan Fun fact. Leo and Abrams have the same main gun German design." Doesn’t the Challenger 2 also have the same main gun? If not then that is a bit silly. NATO should have pushed for standardisation for logistical reasons! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Weapons no ammunition possible for some. Some tanks use 6" some 152mm Some 155mm some 157mm so it's hard to make all that is needed. General Dynamics, in Hadrings is running 24/7 so are other companies that supply General Dynamics but that's more hi tech not ammunition for older tech. It like having a petrol car when only diseal is available. That's why the German leopard tank is so important one brand one supply chain yes the American tank is the best but it fires 6" shells only made In the US. The British tank is good but completely different to run and maintenan Fun fact. Leo and Abrams have the same main gun German design. Doesn’t the Challenger 2 also have the same main gun? If not then that is a bit silly. NATO should have pushed for standardisation for logistical reasons!" Idk what version they sending Ukraine. I think the chally is rifled not smoothbore. It cant accept hesh rounds if it rifled. Hopefully someone from the British army could chime in. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Never realised there was so many swingers in the military strategy field..." Most are also qualified economists, virologists and immunologists. Highly qualified bunch on here | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The Challenger 1 & 2 gun is rifled but inexplicably the replacement is planned not to be. You can fire HESH through a rifled barrel but can't fire fin (APFSDS) through a smooth barrel. Fin is the preferred anti tank option, especially against Russian armour which had ERA to defeat HESH but has no effect on fin rounds. Fin is useless against soft skin or lightly armoured vehicles as it passes straight through" Ty | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It's going to be interesting. I just hope Ukraine does proper combined warfare. The Bradley had more tank kills than Abrams in the gulf war. " And your A10s have a good kill ratio against British Warriors  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Never realised there was so many swingers in the military strategy field... Most are also qualified economists, virologists and immunologists. Highly qualified bunch on here "Thing is some actually might be! Swinging is a broad church after all. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It's going to be interesting. I just hope Ukraine does proper combined warfare. The Bradley had more tank kills than Abrams in the gulf war. And your A10s have a good kill ratio against British Warriors "Accidents happen unfortunately. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The Challenger 1 & 2 gun is rifled but inexplicably the replacement is planned not to be. You can fire HESH through a rifled barrel but can't fire fin (APFSDS) through a smooth barrel. Fin is the preferred anti tank option, especially against Russian armour which had ERA to defeat HESH but has no effect on fin rounds. Fin is useless against soft skin or lightly armoured vehicles as it passes straight through" Thanks. Just did a bit of tank research over a cuppa. Interesting stuff. Consensus does seem to be that the latest version of the Leopard 2 is the best tank in service. Bloomin’ Germans! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The Challenger 1 & 2 gun is rifled but inexplicably the replacement is planned not to be. You can fire HESH through a rifled barrel but can't fire fin (APFSDS) through a smooth barrel. Fin is the preferred anti tank option, especially against Russian armour which had ERA to defeat HESH but has no effect on fin rounds. Fin is useless against soft skin or lightly armoured vehicles as it passes straight through Thanks. Just did a bit of tank research over a cuppa. Interesting stuff. Consensus does seem to be that the latest version of the Leopard 2 is the best tank in service. Bloomin’ Germans!" It's not the best tank, just the most numerous NATO/Western MBT in service (because Germany went on a firesale for most of its tank fleet after the end of the Cold War). So technically quantity has a quality of its own. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The Challenger 1 & 2 gun is rifled but inexplicably the replacement is planned not to be. You can fire HESH through a rifled barrel but can't fire fin (APFSDS) through a smooth barrel. Fin is the preferred anti tank option, especially against Russian armour which had ERA to defeat HESH but has no effect on fin rounds. Fin is useless against soft skin or lightly armoured vehicles as it passes straight through" The replacement gun for the Chally 3 is expected to be smoothbore and not rifled, so as to unify the British Army's tank ammunition to be same-specced as every other NATO main battle tank type (120mm smoothbore guns mostly based off the Rheinmetall model). HESH is increasingly pointless as a tank round today; if you need hi-ex to deal with any enemy soft target or buildings you're better off just using an ATGM with a HEAT warhead that gives better standoff range anyway. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The Challenger 1 & 2 gun is rifled but inexplicably the replacement is planned not to be. You can fire HESH through a rifled barrel but can't fire fin (APFSDS) through a smooth barrel. Fin is the preferred anti tank option, especially against Russian armour which had ERA to defeat HESH but has no effect on fin rounds. Fin is useless against soft skin or lightly armoured vehicles as it passes straight through Thanks. Just did a bit of tank research over a cuppa. Interesting stuff. Consensus does seem to be that the latest version of the Leopard 2 is the best tank in service. Bloomin’ Germans! It's not the best tank, just the most numerous NATO/Western MBT in service (because Germany went on a firesale for most of its tank fleet after the end of the Cold War). So technically quantity has a quality of its own. " Ah ok I was just repeating what I read and saw on various sites and videos. I have little knowledge of tanks. They came to the Leopard 2 decision based on a range of factors such as armament (inc rate of fire and accuracy), night fighting ability, crew safety, armour/protection, speed on road and off road etc. The Challenger 2 and Abrams (later versions?) have the ceramic Chobham armour. Challenger is heavy and slow. Abrams thirsty and higher tech engine. You seem to know your stuff re tanks, so what would you say is the best and why? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Ah ok I was just repeating what I read and saw on various sites and videos. I have little knowledge of tanks. They came to the Leopard 2 decision based on a range of factors such as armament (inc rate of fire and accuracy), night fighting ability, crew safety, armour/protection, speed on road and off road etc. The Challenger 2 and Abrams (later versions?) have the ceramic Chobham armour. Challenger is heavy and slow. Abrams thirsty and higher tech engine. You seem to know your stuff re tanks, so what would you say is the best and why?" There's no set answer for which is the best tank to be honest, it all depends on how they're used and what assets they're used in conjunction with. Abrams and Chally 2 are considered the top two tanks over the Leo 2 mainly because they have had extensive combat experience, whereas the Leo 2 has only seen active combat usage in the Turkish Army's military expeditions into Northern Syria (where they were criminally misused with little to no infantry support and hence easily blown up). Also, the Abrams is currently the only NATO MBT that has an active protection system (Trophy) fully fitted and integrated into service, which would serve very well against enemy ATGMs. If Ukraine only receives a small number of Western MBTs to bolster its defences, it is imperative to make them as survivable as possible. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Anyway... Getting back to supply and demand issues, can donated hardware be supplied with ammo, fuel, spares and can NATO members replace stocks for own forces? Personally I don't think it's well thought out.. lots of different ammo sizes and spare parts" The answer is increasingly a "no" if what is coming out in the public domain is anything to gauge things by. NATO and the US specifically has no issues sending weapons platforms, but the munitions are proving to be a major bottleneck and exposing latent concerns about the sorry state of organic non-US NATO logistics and reserve stockpiling. We will possibly see increasing pressure by the middle of this year from NATO and the US on Ukraine to at least attempt at opening diplomatic negotiations with Russia and the cessation of the current "blank cheque" approach towards military aid for the Ukrainian Armed Forces. If the Russo-Ukrainian War drags on into the summer or longer then frankly it would have been better served for NATO to directly intervene and fight the Russians to liberate Ukraine ala First Gulf War/Desert Storm against Iraq. You can only allow a proxy war to go on for so long before it gets to a point whereby you see diminishing returns from simply providing material weapons aid instead of directly fighting the war yourself. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"[Removed by poster at 16/02/23 17:04:43]" You got me intrigued  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Ah ok I was just repeating what I read and saw on various sites and videos. I have little knowledge of tanks. They came to the Leopard 2 decision based on a range of factors such as armament (inc rate of fire and accuracy), night fighting ability, crew safety, armour/protection, speed on road and off road etc. The Challenger 2 and Abrams (later versions?) have the ceramic Chobham armour. Challenger is heavy and slow. Abrams thirsty and higher tech engine. You seem to know your stuff re tanks, so what would you say is the best and why? There's no set answer for which is the best tank to be honest, it all depends on how they're used and what assets they're used in conjunction with. Abrams and Chally 2 are considered the top two tanks over the Leo 2 mainly because they have had extensive combat experience, whereas the Leo 2 has only seen active combat usage in the Turkish Army's military expeditions into Northern Syria (where they were criminally misused with little to no infantry support and hence easily blown up). Also, the Abrams is currently the only NATO MBT that has an active protection system (Trophy) fully fitted and integrated into service, which would serve very well against enemy ATGMs. If Ukraine only receives a small number of Western MBTs to bolster its defences, it is imperative to make them as survivable as possible. " | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?"Profit it not what drives this war | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. " There is a lot of "warring" going on. More than anticipated and for longer. If NATO was at war their combined economies would have been turned over to producing weaponry as quickly as possible with massive state funding. We are not, so stocks ha e been depleted whilst production ramp-up is happening at the rate that private companies can fund it. However, there is money to be made, so it will get done. Russia has bigger problems. Conscripts are not an adequate replacement for the huge numbers of professional, trained and experienced soldiers that they have lost. Although a lot of the "prestige" latest generation weaponry is available it stays at home because they are in very short supply and they seem unwilling to commit them having seen the large scale aircraft and vehicle losses to date. They now have a problem with replacing even their second tier equipment due to sanctions. As above, they also do not have the trained personnel to man them. It's not hardware that's the problem, it's the wetware. The poor guy in the uniform who in the Russian case does not want to be there. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war"It's probably not what is driving this particular war, but it helps. The arms manufacturers are producing ammunition and weapons systems to replace those being donated to Ukraine. They are also getting huge publicity and can slap a "tested in combat" sticker on everything that has been blowing up the Russian equipment supplied to half the world. As seen on YouTube. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war"Just a side bonus? I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved. Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works."Continuation of the cold/hot/ and everything in-between since 1945? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works."I think that there are good geopolitical reasons from preventing Russia from extending it's deliberately disruptive and destabilising influence to NATO and EU borders. There is a private sector economic alignment, but if there was not, this would still be necessary. Failing to do this when he invaded Georgia encouraged him to take Crimea. Failure to do something about that led to where we are now. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works."Go read his published manifesto. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works.
I think that there are good geopolitical reasons from preventing Russia from extending it's deliberately disruptive and destabilising influence to NATO and EU borders.
There is a private sector economic alignment, but if there was not, this would still be necessary.
Failing to do this when he invaded Georgia encouraged him to take Crimea. Failure to do something about that led to where we are now."Agree if he takes Ukraine it will be Poland in time a slow forward march. And if Russia do take Ukraine energy and other resources will stay hi in cost electric, grain, vegetable oil, and other basic materials. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works. Go read his published manifesto. "Can you add the link | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works.
I think that there are good geopolitical reasons from preventing Russia from extending it's deliberately disruptive and destabilising influence to NATO and EU borders.
There is a private sector economic alignment, but if there was not, this would still be necessary.
Failing to do this when he invaded Georgia encouraged him to take Crimea. Failure to do something about that led to where we are now."Can't see why politicians here, in the US, Germany etc would care about that. They see the opportunity to give more business to BAE or whomever makes all the arms, and other military stuff we're sending over. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works.
I think that there are good geopolitical reasons from preventing Russia from extending it's deliberately disruptive and destabilising influence to NATO and EU borders.
There is a private sector economic alignment, but if there was not, this would still be necessary.
Failing to do this when he invaded Georgia encouraged him to take Crimea. Failure to do something about that led to where we are now.
Can't see why politicians here, in the US, Germany etc would care about that.
They see the opportunity to give more business to BAE or whomever makes all the arms, and other military stuff we're sending over.
"I mean, I can see why they should care. But I don't give them credit to. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works. Go read his published manifesto. "If it says anything other than "I did it for money and power", I'm going to guess that Putin is lying. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works. Go read his published manifesto.
If it says anything other than "I did it for money and power", I'm going to guess that Putin is lying. "You can go read it and make your own assumptions. It's on the Kremlin website. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works. Go read his published manifesto.
If it says anything other than "I did it for money and power", I'm going to guess that Putin is lying. You can go read it and make your own assumptions. It's on the Kremlin website."Sounds 100% impartial. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works.
I think that there are good geopolitical reasons from preventing Russia from extending it's deliberately disruptive and destabilising influence to NATO and EU borders.
There is a private sector economic alignment, but if there was not, this would still be necessary.
Failing to do this when he invaded Georgia encouraged him to take Crimea. Failure to do something about that led to where we are now.
Agree if he takes Ukraine it will be Poland in time a slow forward march.
And if Russia do take Ukraine energy and other resources will stay hi in cost electric, grain, vegetable oil, and other basic materials."I don't think that it's a case of invading Poland. They are a NATO member. It's messing with them and the West. Distracting their attention. Forcing us to spend time and resources on countering Russia rather than doing useful things for our economies and populations. Being emboldened to interfere with our internal politics and in looking strong attracting the support of people within our countries to aim for a similar form of "strong man" government that "get things done". We have echoes of this already. Ukraine is resource rich, or at least tips a balance of control which we do not want in the hands of a hostile competitor. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works.
I think that there are good geopolitical reasons from preventing Russia from extending it's deliberately disruptive and destabilising influence to NATO and EU borders.
There is a private sector economic alignment, but if there was not, this would still be necessary.
Failing to do this when he invaded Georgia encouraged him to take Crimea. Failure to do something about that led to where we are now.
Can't see why politicians here, in the US, Germany etc would care about that.
They see the opportunity to give more business to BAE or whomever makes all the arms, and other military stuff we're sending over.
"In Hastings TE are now running 24/7 and wages are going up to increase employees, general dynamics are also uping productions. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why is there reports of the west running out of weapons to supply Ukraine. The was also mentioned in a statement by the Nato Secretary. I thought the Russians were going to run out of money and arms months ago because of the sanctions. I think that ammunition depletion is a real possibility and does need to be addressed by European and NATO countries. Russia has always played a long game and has a well established military industrial capacity. Most European and NATO countries will have developed their ammunition supply to cater for peacetime defensive capabilities. Now they are needing to ramp up significantly. Let’s hope that there are plans in place to do this. There are definitely plans to do this. This war, just like all the other current wars, is purely for profit. Right. So the USA/NATO conspired with Russia and arranged a Russian invasion of Ukraine in order for both to make money . Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an imperialist who believes Russia has a god given entitlement to expand its territories and at any cost of life.
What?
Profit it not what drives this war
Just a side bonus?
I can't see any other reason why Putin invaded or why anyone else is getting involved.
Maybe cynical, but this is how the world works. Go read his published manifesto.
If it says anything other than "I did it for money and power", I'm going to guess that Putin is lying. You can go read it and make your own assumptions. It's on the Kremlin website.
Sounds 100% impartial."It was published before the invasion. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I know it's an unpopular point of view but in 1962 the US almost brought us to WW3 when Russia stationed missiles on the US border in Cuba. The west feels that this was a justified objection. NATO gives Russia an assurance that we won't put NATO members on their border and then break it by adding Poland, Estonia etc. The possibility of Ukraine joining and adding more NATO forces on the border becomes too much and a stand needs to be made. The US action is historically justified but the Russian action is seen as imperialist. I'm not excusing Putin's actions but we have prodded him mercilessly so aren't blameless " If you knew the history of the Warsaw Pact countries like Poland and the Baltic countries with the Soviet Union, you'd understand very well why they were the ones who eagerly sought out NATO membership and collective defense after the collapse of their overlord superpower, leaving Russia as the main remnant legacy power out of the entire Eastern bloc. NATO isn't in the business of turning away countries who want to join the alliance. If countries wish to join on their own free will, why should NATO reject them? There was even a short period of time after the end of the Cold War when there were actually considerations to invite/accept Russia as a member of NATO, in the spirit of old enemies shaking hands and calling it a day for conflict between both sides. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I served in the cold war and the transition; I think I understand the history thank you very much. A lot of ex USSR countries want to join NATO as you'd expect but you've missed the point about how that affects Russia. Russian missiles in the border of the US was a major issue but we expect Russia to accept increasing numbers of NATO members on its borders despite assurances it won't happen" Everyone has intercontinental ballistic missiles.Also submarines with Nuke capabilities. Ukraine should never have given up their nuked to appease Russia. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I served in the cold war and the transition; I think I understand the history thank you very much. A lot of ex USSR countries want to join NATO as you'd expect but you've missed the point about how that affects Russia. Russian missiles in the border of the US was a major issue but we expect Russia to accept increasing numbers of NATO members on its borders despite assurances it won't happen" You have provided the answer to your own observation on your post. Former uSSR countries want to join NATO because they value their rights to live and exist as independent countries. The issue that Russia feels threatened because countries that they formerly occupied want to protect themselves from that ever happening again is a non-story and something that Russia needs to reflect on - and no one else. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I served in the cold war and the transition; I think I understand the history thank you very much. A lot of ex USSR countries want to join NATO as you'd expect but you've missed the point about how that affects Russia. Russian missiles in the border of the US was a major issue but we expect Russia to accept increasing numbers of NATO members on its borders despite assurances it won't happen You have provided the answer to your own observation on your post. Former uSSR countries want to join NATO because they value their rights to live and exist as independent countries. The issue that Russia feels threatened because countries that they formerly occupied want to protect themselves from that ever happening again is a non-story and something that Russia needs to reflect on - and no one else." | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As the Ukraine is not even a member of NATO should members be running stocks low anyway " | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I served in the cold war and the transition; I think I understand the history thank you very much. A lot of ex USSR countries want to join NATO as you'd expect but you've missed the point about how that affects Russia. Russian missiles in the border of the US was a major issue but we expect Russia to accept increasing numbers of NATO members on its borders despite assurances it won't happen You have provided the answer to your own observation on your post. Former uSSR countries want to join NATO because they value their rights to live and exist as independent countries. The issue that Russia feels threatened because countries that they formerly occupied want to protect themselves from that ever happening again is a non-story and something that Russia needs to reflect on - and no one else." We didn't see Ukrainians welcome Russian Troops with open arms and flowers. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"General Dynamics and the Scranton army ammunition facilities are running day and here. General Dynamics is even building new facilities. They ramping up production. " https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/17/politics/us-weapons-factories-ukraine-ammunition/index.html. CNN must have a Fab spy.  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Oh dear ! Embarrassing As the Ukraine is not even a member of NATO should members be running stocks low anyway " Isn't the ammunition stock being used for exactly the purpose it was made for in the first place? Destroying Russian tanks, artillery, armour as well as Russian soldiers. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I served in the cold war and the transition; I think I understand the history thank you very much. A lot of ex USSR countries want to join NATO as you'd expect but you've missed the point about how that affects Russia. Russian missiles in the border of the US was a major issue but we expect Russia to accept increasing numbers of NATO members on its borders despite assurances it won't happen You have provided the answer to your own observation on your post. Former uSSR countries want to join NATO because they value their rights to live and exist as independent countries. The issue that Russia feels threatened because countries that they formerly occupied want to protect themselves from that ever happening again is a non-story and something that Russia needs to reflect on - and no one else." | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Oh dear ! Embarrassing As the Ukraine is not even a member of NATO should members be running stocks low anyway Isn't the ammunition stock being used for exactly the purpose it was made for in the first place? Destroying Russian tanks, artillery, armour as well as Russian soldiers. " When we got into the Iraq war, we had to ask the likes of Germany to supply us so no real surprise there. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I am amazed how poorly uninformed people are..... The quickest way to end the war is to arm Ukraine .... period The people around Putin will decide his fate .. whoever takes his place will have to negotiate.. this is what follows ......... 1. Respect Ukraines internationally recognised borders 2. Weaken the Russian military so they can t come back again to try this in another 10 years time 3. Expel Russian military from Ukraine 4. Reparations and compensation for the eight million displaced Ukrainian people and the dead . 5. Pay to rebuild the cities they have destroyed with cruise missiles ... " Same thing was done after ww1, stirred resentment in Germany and helped kick off ww2 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"That's why the German leopard tank is so important one brand one supply chain yes the American tank is the best but it fires 6" shells only made In the US." Whoever told you that is an idiot. Would love to see someone defy physics and fit a 6 inch shell into a 120mm (4.7 inch) gun. 
The Abrams uses the same gun as found on Leopard 2. It's the British Challenger's that are different as they use rifled guns due to tactics making use of HESH rounds. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"That's why the German leopard tank is so important one brand one supply chain yes the American tank is the best but it fires 6" shells only made In the US. Whoever told you that is an idiot. Would love to see someone defy physics and fit a 6 inch shell into a 120mm (4.7 inch) gun.
The Abrams uses the same gun as found on Leopard 2. It's the British Challenger's that are different as they use rifled guns due to tactics making use of HESH rounds." | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I am amazed how poorly uninformed people are..... The quickest way to end the war is to arm Ukraine .... period The people around Putin will decide his fate .. whoever takes his place will have to negotiate.. this is what follows ......... 1. Respect Ukraines internationally recognised borders 2. Weaken the Russian military so they can t come back again to try this in another 10 years time 3. Expel Russian military from Ukraine 4. Reparations and compensation for the eight million displaced Ukrainian people and the dead . 5. Pay to rebuild the cities they have destroyed with cruise missiles ... Same thing was done after ww1, stirred resentment in Germany and helped kick off ww2" After an embarrassing first year Russia is already feeling a lot of resentment… | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I am amazed how poorly uninformed people are..... The quickest way to end the war is to arm Ukraine .... period The people around Putin will decide his fate .. whoever takes his place will have to negotiate.. this is what follows ......... 1. Respect Ukraines internationally recognised borders 2. Weaken the Russian military so they can t come back again to try this in another 10 years time 3. Expel Russian military from Ukraine 4. Reparations and compensation for the eight million displaced Ukrainian people and the dead . 5. Pay to rebuild the cities they have destroyed with cruise missiles ... Same thing was done after ww1, stirred resentment in Germany and helped kick off ww2 After an embarrassing first year Russia is already feeling a lot of resentment…" It's only going to get worse. Maybe they should withdraw. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I am amazed how poorly uninformed people are..... The quickest way to end the war is to arm Ukraine .... period The people around Putin will decide his fate .. whoever takes his place will have to negotiate.. this is what follows ......... 1. Respect Ukraines internationally recognised borders 2. Weaken the Russian military so they can t come back again to try this in another 10 years time 3. Expel Russian military from Ukraine 4. Reparations and compensation for the eight million displaced Ukrainian people and the dead . 5. Pay to rebuild the cities they have destroyed with cruise missiles ... Same thing was done after ww1, stirred resentment in Germany and helped kick off ww2 After an embarrassing first year Russia is already feeling a lot of resentment… It's only going to get worse. Maybe they should withdraw." He could.. but would accuse countries of supplying fascists etc... then start /do something else | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As the Ukraine is not even a member of NATO should members be running stocks low anyway " The war Russia started is using up their stock if weapons, vehicles, amunition rockets and men of fighting age. As a consequence the likelihood of Russia taking on Nato is less now than it was a year ago so we can use up our stockpoles if old stuff and create new. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"China’s support for Russia and potentially supplying arms to exacerbate matters further is worrying." It is; but China is a supply economy. If someone will give them money or oil they will take it and supply stuff. We should not forget China made its fortune making stuff for western nation companies like Apple. If the west get pissed off and do it in house China will suffer. There is always a fine line to tread. I am glad we don't have Johnson and Trump as bookend leaders. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Post new Message to Thread |
| back to top |  |
