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"You lost, they won, get over it, time to move on, corrupt unelected EU, brexit only failed because it hasn’t been done properly, leftie woke civil service blob, give it time maybe 10-20-50 years, etc ad nauseam. " I tried asking for real life evidence for how brexit might be a success. You would have thought that was an open goal for brexiteers. But alas no, just more of the above and more insults. | |||
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"You lost, they won, get over it, time to move on, corrupt unelected EU, brexit only failed because it hasn’t been done properly, leftie woke civil service blob, give it time maybe 10-20-50 years, etc ad nauseam. I tried asking for real life evidence for how brexit might be a success. You would have thought that was an open goal for brexiteers. But alas no, just more of the above and more insults. " As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!” | |||
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"I'm sure it must be possible for the half a dozen people who seem to spend their entire lives on this forum insulting two or three people to set up their own separate forum where they can just pretend brexit and the Tories are great 24/7 and convince themselves that the whole planet feels the same way. That way the rest of us don't have to be bothered with all this late at night bitterness that seems to overcome to you with some considerable regularity. I mean you've been droning on about people who discuss Brexit every day since I joined this site, and still nothing has changed. Your time obviously is your own, but maybe you aren't as clever as you think."  | |||
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"I'm sure it must be possible for the half a dozen people who seem to spend their entire lives on this forum talking about two or three topics to set up their own separate forum where they can just agree with each other 24/7 and convince themselves that the whole planet feels the same way. That way the rest of us don't have to be bothered with all this late at night bitterness that seems to overcome to you with some considerable regularity. I mean you've been droning on about Brexit every day since I joined this site, and still nothing has changed. Your time obviously is your own, but maybe you aren't as clever as you think." Or maybe you could assert your sovereignty over your own actions and, you know, ignore those threads and not waste your time getting into conversations about topics that clearly bore you? | |||
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"I'm sure it must be possible for the half a dozen people who seem to spend their entire lives on this forum talking about two or three topics to set up their own separate forum where they can just agree with each other 24/7 and convince themselves that the whole planet feels the same way. That way the rest of us don't have to be bothered with all this late at night bitterness that seems to overcome to you with some considerable regularity. I mean you've been droning on about Brexit every day since I joined this site, and still nothing has changed. Your time obviously is your own, but maybe you aren't as clever as you think." It’s just another anti government thread from a socialist left wing voter. Let them get on with it and enjoy fab | |||
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"I'm sure it must be possible for the half a dozen people who seem to spend their entire lives on this forum talking about two or three topics to set up their own separate forum where they can just agree with each other 24/7 and convince themselves that the whole planet feels the same way. That way the rest of us don't have to be bothered with all this late at night bitterness that seems to overcome to you with some considerable regularity. I mean you've been droning on about Brexit every day since I joined this site, and still nothing has changed. Your time obviously is your own, but maybe you aren't as clever as you think. It’s just another anti government thread from a socialist left wing voter. Let them get on with it and enjoy fab " So bizarre that you think only left wingers and socialists can think for themselves. It's pretty offensive to everyone else. Not all right wingers and Tories are happy to remain ignorant and compliant. Many of them have opinions and oppose corruption and self serving politics. | |||
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"I'm sure it must be possible for the half a dozen people who seem to spend their entire lives on this forum talking about two or three topics to set up their own separate forum where they can just agree with each other 24/7 and convince themselves that the whole planet feels the same way. That way the rest of us don't have to be bothered with all this late at night bitterness that seems to overcome to you with some considerable regularity. I mean you've been droning on about Brexit every day since I joined this site, and still nothing has changed. Your time obviously is your own, but maybe you aren't as clever as you think. It’s just another anti government thread from a socialist left wing voter. Let them get on with it and enjoy fab " You obviously took the time to read the OP and then comment on it  | |||
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"I'm sure it must be possible for the half a dozen people who seem to spend their entire lives on this forum talking about two or three topics to set up their own separate forum where they can just agree with each other 24/7 and convince themselves that the whole planet feels the same way. That way the rest of us don't have to be bothered with all this late at night bitterness that seems to overcome to you with some considerable regularity. I mean you've been droning on about Brexit every day since I joined this site, and still nothing has changed. Your time obviously is your own, but maybe you aren't as clever as you think. It’s just another anti government thread from a socialist left wing voter. Let them get on with it and enjoy fab " Is a thread socialist & left wing if it mentions reality ? | |||
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"To those who feel we should of stayed or rejoin the EU,just remember this, when we joined in 1973 the economy was still going through tough times during the 70s until most part of the 80s. We still had recessions in the 80s, 90s and late 00s while still a member. So I'm not saying being in the EU was completely bad but it wasn't great either as it did have its problems mainly to do with its Beaurocracy and Euro which almost collasped by the way and had to bail out certain countries in it. Now Im not saying Brexit is going smoothly it isn't, but part of the reason that is mainly because there was no clear plan on how how it was going to be executed and the people who negotiated the process did not do it with the heart to actually wanting to leave the EU(I blame Theresa May for that) But Brexit can't be that bad despite its problems, the UK grew 4.1% against the E.U 3.5% for 2022 so what does that say?? I think people should just move on from Brexit and try and make the most of things. This country survived 2 World Wars, Pandemics, other ecomonic shocks. This is Great Britain, with people working together instead of against each other, it can do great things. " As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!” The UK was made significantly richer as a result of being in the Single Market. 4.1% growth from a far lower baseline is not comparable to 3.5% from a higher baseline. That isn’t how percentages work. There are no two ways about it. The UK is poorer as a result of leaving the EU. It really is that simple. | |||
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"To those who feel we should of stayed or rejoin the EU,just remember this, when we joined in 1973 the economy was still going through tough times during the 70s until most part of the 80s. We still had recessions in the 80s, 90s and late 00s while still a member. So I'm not saying being in the EU was completely bad but it wasn't great either as it did have its problems mainly to do with its Beaurocracy and Euro which almost collasped by the way and had to bail out certain countries in it. Now Im not saying Brexit is going smoothly it isn't, but part of the reason that is mainly because there was no clear plan on how how it was going to be executed and the people who negotiated the process did not do it with the heart to actually wanting to leave the EU(I blame Theresa May for that) But Brexit can't be that bad despite its problems, the UK grew 4.1% against the E.U 3.5% for 2022 so what does that say?? I think people should just move on from Brexit and try and make the most of things. This country survived 2 World Wars, Pandemics, other ecomonic shocks. This is Great Britain, with people working together instead of against each other, it can do great things. " Pretty good post. Just to address this: "But Brexit can't be that bad despite its problems, the UK grew 4.1% against the E.U 3.5% for 2022 so what does that say??" It says that we managed to recover in a small part, some of the damage to the economy that brexit did. We're still way behind where we would have been. | |||
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"Well I remember the gloomiest predictions that David Cameron, George Osbourne and some economist made during the EU Referendum. There be a year long recession after the vote to leave (didnt happen in reality) There would be world war 3 (cant rule it out but unlikely to happen for the time being) There be half a million job loses (didnt happen - theres 1.2 million job vacancies at the moment) House prices will tumble (while this has started to happen, house prices are still higher then they were in 2016) The only things they got right was the Pound falling against the USD and there being issues with the Northern Ireland Bordee " You picked some extreme examples there. Not sure who said world war three would happen. The main prediction was. It would be bad for the economy. Which is true. The rest was known. It would be difficult to recruit in certain sectors. Nurses being a good example. It would make British businesses less competitive compared to their EU counterparts. It would close down some British businesses due to not being within the EU. Such as British shellfish producers and exporters. It would introduce extra red tape making things more expensive for British people and British businesses. There are no tangible benefits for anyone not investing millions shorting the pound or avoiding tax via offshore schemes. All of which was labelled project fear. And all of which is true. | |||
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"Bank of England policy maker says investment is down by £29b compared to what would have been made if we stayed in the EU. So if someone came knocking on your Brexiteer door and said can you give me a £1000 pounds (1.3%GDP). that would represent how much the economy has lost in investment alone. This is on top of the 4% loss in GDP. Now America and the EU are pushing their increased support for green energy projects and at home manufacturing. Buy a car in the US made in the US and you get $7500 off the price. What are we doing? “That’s not certain” and the Tory party are railing against it as they want to pay less tax. They don’t have a plan. So further and further behind we slide in a mess of our own making. I went to France last week and Denmark this. Queues at passport control just piss me off royally when I see the EU line run so quickly. The blindness of pro Brexit is summed up in those queues. Absolute abject stupidity. We are now at the back of the queue for investment and trade. It’s ok I just need to move on then everything will be good. Just how exactly? Please share any nuggets of positive outcomes which will stem the slide of this country into an also ran. If you love your country you should be screaming at the architects of our downfall but blind ignorance and indoctrinated loyalty to a false image of a party steers many into the realm of fantasy and delusion. " Hard to argue with that. But I bet somebody will try. | |||
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"I tried asking for real life evidence for how brexit might be a success. You would have thought that was an open goal for brexiteers. But alas no, just more of the above and more insults. " You did get some evidence of how Brexit might be a success, but you never commented on it. | |||
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"As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!”" It's a poor analogy I'm afraid. Domestic abusers commit their crimes by persuading the victim to come back, then treating them as badly as before. Even if you agree that Brexit has "hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you", it's not like it's going to happen again, is it. | |||
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"I tried asking for real life evidence for how brexit might be a success. You would have thought that was an open goal for brexiteers. But alas no, just more of the above and more insults. You did get some evidence of how Brexit might be a success, but you never commented on it." Reread the thread. The only answers were. 1. We can trust the Tories to turn it around through changes to VAT. Not actually evidence that brexit will be good. 2. Maybe Labour will get in and turn it around. Also not actually evidence of anything. The majority of the thread was taken up by the usual suspects insulting people. | |||
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"To those who feel we should of stayed or rejoin the EU,just remember this, when we joined in 1973 the economy was still going through tough times during the 70s until most part of the 80s." As has been mentioned several times now, we didn't join the EU in 1973. We joined the European Economic Community, which was just a trading group. The EU didn't exist until late 1993. | |||
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"To those who feel we should of stayed or rejoin the EU,just remember this, when we joined in 1973 the economy was still going through tough times during the 70s until most part of the 80s. As has been mentioned several times now, we didn't join the EU in 1973. We joined the European Economic Community, which was just a trading group. The EU didn't exist until late 1993." Its the the same institution under a different name back then | |||
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"As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!” It's a poor analogy I'm afraid. Domestic abusers commit their crimes by persuading the victim to come back, then treating them as badly as before. Even if you agree that Brexit has "hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you", it's not like it's going to happen again, is it." You missed off IMHO. It is a fine analogy thanks. I will stick with it! | |||
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"As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!” It's a poor analogy I'm afraid. Domestic abusers commit their crimes by persuading the victim to come back, then treating them as badly as before. Even if you agree that Brexit has "hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you", it's not like it's going to happen again, is it." The damage increases over time though doesn’t it. If you lose a bit of market share you are less productive and less efficient so long term the prognosis is negative. The EU us moving on because they can. We have a combination of self imposed costs and totally incompetent government who have no answer other than boat people and scroungers on the dole. What about the economy ? The pain is only going to get worse without attention or treatment, if you prefer. My biggest complaint now is the pretending nothing is wrong. It’s just an example of how poorly we are governed. | |||
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"Thats kinda misleading,the economists say we lost £29 billion since 2016 but while we voted to leave that year we didnt leave the EU until the start of 2021 so are you really saying thats all down to Brexit considering we had a pandemic and lockdown in that period too??" The Brexit decision spooked investors that’s the reason for the drop. The delays on action just made it worse because they could see the new pro Brexit government had not the faintest idea what to do. I can agree some of it may well be down to Covid so happy to take that point. However the underlying case come through when you compare to other western economies. On every level we are failing and falling behind. That’s not covid or Ukraine that’s Brexit. I don’t think people realise all the added costs we are dealing with but it’s slowly grinding the country down. It’s like saying it’s ok I can afford my heating bill and my mortgage rate increases. Of course you can to a point, but for how long exactly? What if your wages go down related to inflation because others can make stuff cheaper in the EU and import to the U.K.? The squeeze means you may not buy that particular car but a cheaper one or a cheaper upgrade to your kitchen or perhaps a cheaper meal out maybe less meals out. All that in turn means others earn less so spend less and so on and so on. We are all losing while the government deny anything is wrong. | |||
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"And therein lies an opportunity. Both have capitalist driven economic ideologies correct ? Isn't Brexit about taking back control and some other chest-beating nonsense ? So let's do two things. 1. Make cars at a fraction of the price they can be made in the US and export them to the US. 2. Make it so attractive for US car manufacturer's to set up manufacturing in the UK, with such generous tax concessions that their shareholders would demand that their cars are made here. We're big boys now and we can do what we like. The French own a lot of our railways and heavily subsidise their own service at our expense. Let's play that game with other countries and do the same. After all, that is the whole point of Capitalism, is it not ? " Interesting thought . Just curious who paying for the tax breaks as we are in debt up to our neck? Less tax more debt . | |||
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"Thats kinda misleading,the economists say we lost £29 billion since 2016 but while we voted to leave that year we didnt leave the EU until the start of 2021 so are you really saying thats all down to Brexit considering we had a pandemic and lockdown in that period too?? The Brexit decision spooked investors that’s the reason for the drop. The delays on action just made it worse because they could see the new pro Brexit government had not the faintest idea what to do. I can agree some of it may well be down to Covid so happy to take that point. However the underlying case come through when you compare to other western economies. On every level we are failing and falling behind. That’s not covid or Ukraine that’s Brexit. I don’t think people realise all the added costs we are dealing with but it’s slowly grinding the country down. It’s like saying it’s ok I can afford my heating bill and my mortgage rate increases. Of course you can to a point, but for how long exactly? What if your wages go down related to inflation because others can make stuff cheaper in the EU and import to the U.K.? The squeeze means you may not buy that particular car but a cheaper one or a cheaper upgrade to your kitchen or perhaps a cheaper meal out maybe less meals out. All that in turn means others earn less so spend less and so on and so on. We are all losing while the government deny anything is wrong. " When you say "on every level we are failing and falling behind" what do you mean exactly? | |||
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"Interesting thought . Just curious who paying for the tax breaks as we are in debt up to our neck? Less tax more debt . " Shareholders and the Corps would probably say, "Not our problem. Thanks for the generous tax cuts. And the massive profits." | |||
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"People just focus on the negative attention on things but never mention the positives" Exactly | |||
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"People just focus on the negative attention on things but never mention the positives" Of course. No one tapped Nero on the shoulder and commented on his virtuoso fiddle-playing whilst Rome burned did they ? | |||
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"People just focus on the negative attention on things but never mention the positives" What are the positives of Brexit? If they existed, the Tories would be shouting about them in the press. | |||
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"People just focus on the negative attention on things but never mention the positives What are the positives of Brexit? If they existed, the Tories would be shouting about them in the press." . ;,, ,,, one benefit of Brexit is that we can now roll out freeports , Sunak said so today , Johnson , ReesMogg and others have also pointed out this benefit of Brexit as we could not have done so had we remained in The EU ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,, SPOILER ALERT ,,,,, there are 80 freeports in The EU ,,,, SPOILER ALERT 2 ,,,The UK had Freeports while a member of The EU until the Conservative Government decided we didn't want or need them , This shows the problem remainers ( like me ) have with the brexitiers , if there are benefits please let us (me) know the benefit do not lie about a benefit which is not a benefit , the fact they have to lie suggests they are struggling to find the sun lit uplands | |||
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"The benefits of Brexit (from a neutral point of viewl is: The UK gets to control their own borders (the UK couldnt do that under Freedom of Movement rules in the EU) The UK gets to have better trade relationships with other countries outside the EU that suits their needs (as a member of the EU, the UK could not have its own trade policy that suited them) Don't have to spend billions of money on EU membership The UK gets to get rid of EU Buarocracy that were very restricted" WE get to control our own borders? Actually we have less control due to Brexit. Glance at the top of the thread. Better trade relationships? Just no. We have far less clout now than we did when we were a key member of the biggest trading bloc in the world. We're now out in the cold on our own. We don't have to spend for EU membership. That is true. But we lose faaaaaaaaaaar more economically by being out of the EU. So it's a huge negative overall. We get rid of EU bureaucracy? That's just naive. Any large organisation has large bureaucacy. It's inevitable. And, ironically, we have to deal with far more red tape when interacting with the EU now. It's 1 of the major barriers to trade we have imposed on ourselves. | |||
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"The benefits of Brexit (from a neutral point of viewl is: The UK gets to control their own borders (the UK couldnt do that under Freedom of Movement rules in the EU) The UK gets to have better trade relationships with other countries outside the EU that suits their needs (as a member of the EU, the UK could not have its own trade policy that suited them) Don't have to spend billions of money on EU membership The UK gets to get rid of EU Buarocracy that were very restricted WE get to control our own borders? Actually we have less control due to Brexit. Glance at the top of the thread. Better trade relationships? Just no. We have far less clout now than we did when we were a key member of the biggest trading bloc in the world. We're now out in the cold on our own. We don't have to spend for EU membership. That is true. But we lose faaaaaaaaaaar more economically by being out of the EU. So it's a huge negative overall. We get rid of EU bureaucracy? That's just naive. Any large organisation has large bureaucacy. It's inevitable. And, ironically, we have to deal with far more red tape when interacting with the EU now. It's 1 of the major barriers to trade we have imposed on ourselves." Guess we should send flights there with immigration refugees. You would be ecstatic with the huge influx. | |||
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"The benefits of Brexit (from a neutral point of viewl is: The UK gets to control their own borders (the UK couldnt do that under Freedom of Movement rules in the EU) The UK gets to have better trade relationships with other countries outside the EU that suits their needs (as a member of the EU, the UK could not have its own trade policy that suited them) Don't have to spend billions of money on EU membership The UK gets to get rid of EU Buarocracy that were very restricted WE get to control our own borders? Actually we have less control due to Brexit. Glance at the top of the thread. Better trade relationships? Just no. We have far less clout now than we did when we were a key member of the biggest trading bloc in the world. We're now out in the cold on our own. We don't have to spend for EU membership. That is true. But we lose faaaaaaaaaaar more economically by being out of the EU. So it's a huge negative overall. We get rid of EU bureaucracy? That's just naive. Any large organisation has large bureaucacy. It's inevitable. And, ironically, we have to deal with far more red tape when interacting with the EU now. It's 1 of the major barriers to trade we have imposed on ourselves. Guess we should send flights there with immigration refugees. You would be ecstatic with the huge influx." As usual, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. | |||
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"I'm off to bed soon, though. So just scribble your million or so posts if you want, Blu x" Keep adding the immigration. You happy with people being homeless.  | |||
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"I'm off to bed soon, though. So just scribble your million or so posts if you want, Blu x" Sure I'll wait until you climb out of bed tomorrow and wait for your million Brexit threads. | |||
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"Thats kinda misleading,the economists say we lost £29 billion since 2016 but while we voted to leave that year we didnt leave the EU until the start of 2021 so are you really saying thats all down to Brexit considering we had a pandemic and lockdown in that period too?? The Brexit decision spooked investors that’s the reason for the drop. The delays on action just made it worse because they could see the new pro Brexit government had not the faintest idea what to do. I can agree some of it may well be down to Covid so happy to take that point. However the underlying case come through when you compare to other western economies. On every level we are failing and falling behind. That’s not covid or Ukraine that’s Brexit. I don’t think people realise all the added costs we are dealing with but it’s slowly grinding the country down. It’s like saying it’s ok I can afford my heating bill and my mortgage rate increases. Of course you can to a point, but for how long exactly? What if your wages go down related to inflation because others can make stuff cheaper in the EU and import to the U.K.? The squeeze means you may not buy that particular car but a cheaper one or a cheaper upgrade to your kitchen or perhaps a cheaper meal out maybe less meals out. All that in turn means others earn less so spend less and so on and so on. We are all losing while the government deny anything is wrong. When you say "on every level we are failing and falling behind" what do you mean exactly?" Every economic measure. | |||
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"The benefits of Brexit (from a neutral point of viewl is: The UK gets to control their own borders (the UK couldnt do that under Freedom of Movement rules in the EU) The UK gets to have better trade relationships with other countries outside the EU that suits their needs (as a member of the EU, the UK could not have its own trade policy that suited them) Don't have to spend billions of money on EU membership The UK gets to get rid of EU Buarocracy that were very restricted" The U.K. could control asylum seekers whilst in the EU and in fact more efficiently as we could send them back to France which we now can’t do hence thousands more waiting to be processed. Free movement brought in workers which we are now short of which in turn is making us less productive and shrinking the economy. Losing those workers is also a large driver of the queues at hospitals. But they can’t admit that publicly. 71 trade deals copying the EU. Australia New Zealand and Japan new deals all of which predictive d to make no difference other than increasing imports. We are too small a nation to get deals as goods the EU en masse. That’s not hard to believe is it? £60b loss of tax revenue directly related to Brexit. EU membership £9b. You can do the maths. Bureaucracy . This is where it’s a myth. Firstly we helped write most of the rules. Secondly that bureaucracy is what gave us free trade because it set rules all manufacturers and providers of service abided by to sell in the EU. It made it simple for a widget manufacturer in Telford to easily sell his product in Poland. The rules are just being duplicated but now adding a layer of rules to show we have British standards. Remember they can’t sell into the EU if they don’t meet EU standards. Sorry but even as a neutral you appear to have bought into the nonsense in the bias media and actually don’t appreciate it’s all bullshit. | |||
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"I tried asking for real life evidence for how brexit might be a success. You would have thought that was an open goal for brexiteers. But alas no, just more of the above and more insults." "You did get some evidence of how Brexit might be a success, but you never commented on it." "Reread the thread. The only answers were. 1. We can trust the Tories to turn it around through changes to VAT. Not actually evidence that brexit will be good. 2. Maybe Labour will get in and turn it around. Also not actually evidence of anything. The majority of the thread was taken up by the usual suspects insulting people." I've not re-read the thread, but I suspect that you are correct. The thing I was thinking of was probably in the previous thread. I'm referring to the idea that the UK could join the CPTPP, work to grow the organisation, and end up being back in a large trading bloc instead of a federal grouping. | |||
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"To those who feel we should of stayed or rejoin the EU,just remember this, when we joined in 1973 the economy was still going through tough times during the 70s until most part of the 80s." "As has been mentioned several times now, we didn't join the EU in 1973. We joined the European Economic Community, which was just a trading group. The EU didn't exist until late 1993." "Its the the same institution under a different name back then " It isn't. The EEC was a pure trading group. It set standards for goods, eliminated tariffs, and removed barriers to trade. The EU was created in order to change that into a political union, with a common currency, centralised law making, and rules that extended beyond trade. They are very different organisations. | |||
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"I tried asking for real life evidence for how brexit might be a success. You would have thought that was an open goal for brexiteers. But alas no, just more of the above and more insults. You did get some evidence of how Brexit might be a success, but you never commented on it. Reread the thread. The only answers were. 1. We can trust the Tories to turn it around through changes to VAT. Not actually evidence that brexit will be good. 2. Maybe Labour will get in and turn it around. Also not actually evidence of anything. The majority of the thread was taken up by the usual suspects insulting people. I've not re-read the thread, but I suspect that you are correct. The thing I was thinking of was probably in the previous thread. I'm referring to the idea that the UK could join the CPTPP, work to grow the organisation, and end up being back in a large trading bloc instead of a federal grouping." Oh I got you. Isn't this more hope (seeing as we don't have any evidence of this new large trading block, or any evidence to suggest this hypothetical new block would be as good or better than the EU), based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation)? Not really very solid. | |||
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"The benefits of Brexit (from a neutral point of viewl is: The UK gets to control their own borders (the UK couldnt do that under Freedom of Movement rules in the EU) The UK gets to have better trade relationships with other countries outside the EU that suits their needs (as a member of the EU, the UK could not have its own trade policy that suited them) Don't have to spend billions of money on EU membership The UK gets to get rid of EU Buarocracy that were very restricted The U.K. could control asylum seekers whilst in the EU and in fact more efficiently as we could send them back to France which we now can’t do hence thousands more waiting to be processed. Free movement brought in workers which we are now short of which in turn is making us less productive and shrinking the economy. Losing those workers is also a large driver of the queues at hospitals. But they can’t admit that publicly. 71 trade deals copying the EU. Australia New Zealand and Japan new deals all of which predictive d to make no difference other than increasing imports. We are too small a nation to get deals as goods the EU en masse. That’s not hard to believe is it? £60b loss of tax revenue directly related to Brexit. EU membership £9b. You can do the maths. Bureaucracy . This is where it’s a myth. Firstly we helped write most of the rules. Secondly that bureaucracy is what gave us free trade because it set rules all manufacturers and providers of service abided by to sell in the EU. It made it simple for a widget manufacturer in Telford to easily sell his product in Poland. The rules are just being duplicated but now adding a layer of rules to show we have British standards. Remember they can’t sell into the EU if they don’t meet EU standards. Sorry but even as a neutral you appear to have bought into the nonsense in the bias media and actually don’t appreciate it’s all bullshit. " This. Brexit is a shitshow. It was always going to be. But it became almost like a religion, so people are fully entrenched in their positions, and no amount of evidence will change that. Until they see or feel the effects for themselves first hand. It’s starting to happen, but there’s clearly a long way to go, hence the ‘Secret summit’. | |||
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"The benefits of Brexit (from a neutral point of viewl is: The UK gets to control their own borders (the UK couldnt do that under Freedom of Movement rules in the EU) The UK gets to have better trade relationships with other countries outside the EU that suits their needs (as a member of the EU, the UK could not have its own trade policy that suited them) Don't have to spend billions of money on EU membership The UK gets to get rid of EU Buarocracy that were very restricted The U.K. could control asylum seekers whilst in the EU and in fact more efficiently as we could send them back to France which we now can’t do hence thousands more waiting to be processed. Free movement brought in workers which we are now short of which in turn is making us less productive and shrinking the economy. Losing those workers is also a large driver of the queues at hospitals. But they can’t admit that publicly. 71 trade deals copying the EU. Australia New Zealand and Japan new deals all of which predictive d to make no difference other than increasing imports. We are too small a nation to get deals as goods the EU en masse. That’s not hard to believe is it? £60b loss of tax revenue directly related to Brexit. EU membership £9b. You can do the maths. Bureaucracy . This is where it’s a myth. Firstly we helped write most of the rules. Secondly that bureaucracy is what gave us free trade because it set rules all manufacturers and providers of service abided by to sell in the EU. It made it simple for a widget manufacturer in Telford to easily sell his product in Poland. The rules are just being duplicated but now adding a layer of rules to show we have British standards. Remember they can’t sell into the EU if they don’t meet EU standards. Sorry but even as a neutral you appear to have bought into the nonsense in the bias media and actually don’t appreciate it’s all bullshit. This. Brexit is a shitshow. It was always going to be. But it became almost like a religion, so people are fully entrenched in their positions, and no amount of evidence will change that. Until they see or feel the effects for themselves first hand. It’s starting to happen, but there’s clearly a long way to go, hence the ‘Secret summit’. " Brexit hasn't happened yet. We're still tied to a raft of EU bullshit laws. The government is making it fail, see hunt the c*&t who is deliberately screwing the economy so they can say ..look how great the EU is, we should rejoin. Traitors and globalists. The remoaners still cannot accept that the plebs,like me, voted for liberty and won. The du wa never about trade, it was about control. There are about 15 different trading groups around the world where nations trade. None are political constructs, just the EU. Why? Because it was always about politics,power and German hegemony. If there is hope it must lie in the proles. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. " Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU." Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. " You dont think some of 'their laws' arr actually transferable because they also work for 'us'? | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. We're still tied to a raft of EU bullshit laws. The government is making it fail, see hunt the c*&t who is deliberately screwing the economy so they can say ..look how great the EU is, we should rejoin. Traitors and globalists. The remoaners still cannot accept that the plebs,like me, voted for liberty and won. The du wa never about trade, it was about control. There are about 15 different trading groups around the world where nations trade. None are political constructs, just the EU. Why? Because it was always about politics,power and German hegemony. If there is hope it must lie in the proles. " Which bullshit EU laws are you aching to be rid of? And once we are rid of these laws how do you think that might impact our already devastated trade with our nearest trading nations? It sounds to me like you don't understand the first thing about trade and trading agreements because there is no chance that any country would do a trade deal of any description that gives the UK a trading advantage because of policies made internally. The basis of all trading agreements starts with a level playing field and if there isn't a level playing field then weighting measures are included. This was the inherent beauty and success of the Single Market that was conceived by Margaret Thatcher and adopted throughout Europe. Common laws and rules provided a defacto level playing field and enabled the creation of the biggest and most successful trading bloc in the world. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. " You remind me of a Monty Python sketch that is so appropriate to Brexit. You want to chop off your arms and legs and it will be great because the EU will get a bit of blood spatter on their trousers. But you really did show them. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. You dont think some of 'their laws' arr actually transferable because they also work for 'us'?" Loving the use of “their laws” as I can never understand why people don’t get that they are “our laws”. We bloody well wrote them in collaboration with the other EU members. We could veto what we didn’t like. This whole concept of Britain is great and powerful and we do not need to be in the EU to be big and powerful seems to fall down when in the next breath the same people are saying the UK was so weak it was bullied by Germany and France when in the EU and those nasty krauts and frogs made us do things we didn’t want to! The irony of that argument is lost on them as is the whole “we did it with the EU they didn’t do anything to us”! The UK became an economic powerhouse because of being in the EU and being seen as the gateway to Europe by much of the rest of the World (particularly US businesses). We were the 2nd biggest economy and the 1st most powerful military in the EU. Nobody bloody bullied us! If you think they did then we have no chance in trade negotiations against the USA, China, India and Brazil. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. You remind me of a Monty Python sketch that is so appropriate to Brexit. You want to chop off your arms and legs and it will be great because the EU will get a bit of blood spatter on their trousers. But you really did show them." You still cannot refute what I'm saying. Making analogies to Monty python means nothing. Give me your argument not lightweight waffle. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. " "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. You dont think some of 'their laws' arr actually transferable because they also work for 'us'?" Yes sorry this is my question too. But this person worded it better. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. You dont think some of 'their laws' arr actually transferable because they also work for 'us'? Yes sorry this is my question too. But this person worded it better. " I must've woke up on the wrong side of bed today. Keep agreeing with others that I often don't | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated?" I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission." Wait until you actually hear about how legislation works in the UK! | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission." Ah I see. Then we fundamentally disagree. I am in favour of laws that are good, and I am against laws that are not. The location with which they are made, is utterly irrelevant to me. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission." The laws in this country have to pass through the House Of Lords (unelected), and if you think some arent made off the back of lobbying, then I'm afraid you must be very naive. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. You remind me of a Monty Python sketch that is so appropriate to Brexit. You want to chop off your arms and legs and it will be great because the EU will get a bit of blood spatter on their trousers. But you really did show them. You still cannot refute what I'm saying. Making analogies to Monty python means nothing. Give me your argument not lightweight waffle." I answered you above - you conveniently ignored it. Pasted here: Which bullshit EU laws are you aching to be rid of? And once we are rid of these laws how do you think that might impact our already devastated trade with our nearest trading nations? It sounds to me like you don't understand the first thing about trade and trading agreements because there is no chance that any country would do a trade deal of any description that gives the UK a trading advantage because of policies made internally. The basis of all trading agreements starts with a level playing field and if there isn't a level playing field then weighting measures are included. This was the inherent beauty and success of the Single Market that was conceived by Margaret Thatcher and adopted throughout Europe. Common laws and rules provided a defacto level playing field and enabled the creation of the biggest and most successful trading bloc in the world. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission. The laws in this country have to pass through the House Of Lords (unelected), and if you think some arent made off the back of lobbying, then I'm afraid you must be very naive. " And EU Commissioners are analogous to the Civil Service Heads of Departments. ie appointed by the member states in EU case. Of course they are not elected. Neither is the UK Civil Service. But the EU Commission President (analogous to the UK Head of the Civil Service) is elected by the European Parliament for 5yr term (UK Head of Civil Service appointed by PM for indefinite period). The EU legislature is elected using PR. In the UK we have an elected lower house (Commons) using FPTP, and unelected upper house (Lords) that is unelected. The Executive in the EU is the PMs of each member state (so we elected them) and this is analogous to the Cabinet. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission. Ah I see. Then we fundamentally disagree. I am in favour of laws that are good, and I am against laws that are not. The location with which they are made, is utterly irrelevant to me. " So suppose Russia came up with a spiffy law, you'd be fine with that?  | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission. The laws in this country have to pass through the House Of Lords (unelected), and if you think some arent made off the back of lobbying, then I'm afraid you must be very naive. " The lordship cannot stop them just give an opinion. But even if they could, so what? They're British. Our politicians. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission. The laws in this country have to pass through the House Of Lords (unelected), and if you think some arent made off the back of lobbying, then I'm afraid you must be very naive. And EU Commissioners are analogous to the Civil Service Heads of Departments. ie appointed by the member states in EU case. Of course they are not elected. Neither is the UK Civil Service. But the EU Commission President (analogous to the UK Head of the Civil Service) is elected by the European Parliament for 5yr term (UK Head of Civil Service appointed by PM for indefinite period). The EU legislature is elected using PR. In the UK we have an elected lower house (Commons) using FPTP, and unelected upper house (Lords) that is unelected. The Executive in the EU is the PMs of each member state (so we elected them) and this is analogous to the Cabinet. " The Lords have no legislative power. It's the commons. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission. The laws in this country have to pass through the House Of Lords (unelected), and if you think some arent made off the back of lobbying, then I'm afraid you must be very naive. The lordship cannot stop them just give an opinion. But even if they could, so what? They're British. Our politicians. " Lord Lebedev is Russian | |||
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"Some folk on here are obsessed with handing our country away and letting foreign politicians do our thinking. The only people who should decide what happens in the uk are us through elected representatives. We shouldn't ever have to parly or make deals with anyone about our country. I couldn't care less if the eu succeeds or fails, well I hope it fails soon. If they are all rich I couldn't give a toss( but they won't be. The east and south live off the north and west. The Germas can'tpay forever.) It's about self determination, self governance. When the money dries up they will still be trapped in a political construct that will not allow them to go their own way. Anyone here fancy parlying with their neighbours about how they run their lives or homes? Not likely. Money comes and goes but when you have no freedom what do you have? " How have your freedoms changed since January 31st 2020, what can you do now that you couldn’t before? | |||
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"Some folk on here are obsessed with handing our country away and letting foreign politicians do our thinking. The only people who should decide what happens in the uk are us through elected representatives. We shouldn't ever have to parly or make deals with anyone about our country. I couldn't care less if the eu succeeds or fails, well I hope it fails soon. If they are all rich I couldn't give a toss( but they won't be. The east and south live off the north and west. The Germas can'tpay forever.) It's about self determination, self governance. When the money dries up they will still be trapped in a political construct that will not allow them to go their own way. Anyone here fancy parlying with their neighbours about how they run their lives or homes? Not likely. Money comes and goes but when you have no freedom what do you have? How have your freedoms changed since January 31st 2020, what can you do now that you couldn’t before? " Anything we want provided we have politicians prepared to seize the day. We don't. Brexit hasn't failed, it's not happened because the traitors in charge haven't finished it or even thought about it. They've done nothing but refuse to make the most of it courtesy of the Whitehall bureaucracy and deeply unpatriotic politicians. | |||
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"Some folk on here are obsessed with handing our country away and letting foreign politicians do our thinking. The only people who should decide what happens in the uk are us through elected representatives. We shouldn't ever have to parly or make deals with anyone about our country. I couldn't care less if the eu succeeds or fails, well I hope it fails soon. If they are all rich I couldn't give a toss( but they won't be. The east and south live off the north and west. The Germas can'tpay forever.) It's about self determination, self governance. When the money dries up they will still be trapped in a political construct that will not allow them to go their own way. Anyone here fancy parlying with their neighbours about how they run their lives or homes? Not likely. Money comes and goes but when you have no freedom what do you have? How have your freedoms changed since January 31st 2020, what can you do now that you couldn’t before? Anything we want provided we have politicians prepared to seize the day. We don't. Brexit hasn't failed, it's not happened because the traitors in charge haven't finished it or even thought about it. They've done nothing but refuse to make the most of it courtesy of the Whitehall bureaucracy and deeply unpatriotic politicians. " How have your freedoms changed? You voted for this, | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission. Ah I see. Then we fundamentally disagree. I am in favour of laws that are good, and I am against laws that are not. The location with which they are made, is utterly irrelevant to me. So suppose Russia came up with a spiffy law, you'd be fine with that? "Yes. Why wouldn't I be? If the laws are good. That's all that matters. | |||
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"Some folk on here are obsessed with handing our country away and letting foreign politicians do our thinking. The only people who should decide what happens in the uk are us through elected representatives. We shouldn't ever have to parly or make deals with anyone about our country. I couldn't care less if the eu succeeds or fails, well I hope it fails soon. If they are all rich I couldn't give a toss( but they won't be. The east and south live off the north and west. The Germas can'tpay forever.) It's about self determination, self governance. When the money dries up they will still be trapped in a political construct that will not allow them to go their own way. Anyone here fancy parlying with their neighbours about how they run their lives or homes? Not likely. Money comes and goes but when you have no freedom what do you have? How have your freedoms changed since January 31st 2020, what can you do now that you couldn’t before? Anything we want provided we have politicians prepared to seize the day. We don't. Brexit hasn't failed, it's not happened because the traitors in charge haven't finished it or even thought about it. They've done nothing but refuse to make the most of it courtesy of the Whitehall bureaucracy and deeply unpatriotic politicians. How have your freedoms changed? You voted for this, "Your damn right I did. In spades. Let me ask you something. Do you believe in sovereignty and self determination? | |||
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"Some folk on here are obsessed with handing our country away and letting foreign politicians do our thinking. The only people who should decide what happens in the uk are us through elected representatives. We shouldn't ever have to parly or make deals with anyone about our country. I couldn't care less if the eu succeeds or fails, well I hope it fails soon. If they are all rich I couldn't give a toss( but they won't be. The east and south live off the north and west. The Germas can'tpay forever.) It's about self determination, self governance. When the money dries up they will still be trapped in a political construct that will not allow them to go their own way. Anyone here fancy parlying with their neighbours about how they run their lives or homes? Not likely. Money comes and goes but when you have no freedom what do you have? How have your freedoms changed since January 31st 2020, what can you do now that you couldn’t before? Anything we want provided we have politicians prepared to seize the day. We don't. Brexit hasn't failed, it's not happened because the traitors in charge haven't finished it or even thought about it. They've done nothing but refuse to make the most of it courtesy of the Whitehall bureaucracy and deeply unpatriotic politicians. How have your freedoms changed? You voted for this,
Your damn right I did. In spades.
Let me ask you something. Do you believe in sovereignty and self determination? "Answer my question and I will answer yours? How have your freedoms changed | |||
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"Some folk on here are obsessed with handing our country away and letting foreign politicians do our thinking. The only people who should decide what happens in the uk are us through elected representatives. We shouldn't ever have to parly or make deals with anyone about our country. I couldn't care less if the eu succeeds or fails, well I hope it fails soon. If they are all rich I couldn't give a toss( but they won't be. The east and south live off the north and west. The Germas can'tpay forever.) It's about self determination, self governance. When the money dries up they will still be trapped in a political construct that will not allow them to go their own way. Anyone here fancy parlying with their neighbours about how they run their lives or homes? Not likely. Money comes and goes but when you have no freedom what do you have? How have your freedoms changed since January 31st 2020, what can you do now that you couldn’t before? Anything we want provided we have politicians prepared to seize the day. We don't. Brexit hasn't failed, it's not happened because the traitors in charge haven't finished it or even thought about it. They've done nothing but refuse to make the most of it courtesy of the Whitehall bureaucracy and deeply unpatriotic politicians. How have your freedoms changed? You voted for this,
Your damn right I did. In spades.
Let me ask you something. Do you believe in sovereignty and self determination? "How different do you believe we are as a nation or even as individuals, compared to our European neighbours? | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission. The laws in this country have to pass through the House Of Lords (unelected), and if you think some arent made off the back of lobbying, then I'm afraid you must be very naive. The lordship cannot stop them just give an opinion. But even if they could, so what? They're British. Our politicians. Lord Lebedev is Russian "He holds dual British-Russian nationality. See's himself as British | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission. The laws in this country have to pass through the House Of Lords (unelected), and if you think some arent made off the back of lobbying, then I'm afraid you must be very naive. The lordship cannot stop them just give an opinion. But even if they could, so what? They're British. Our politicians. Lord Lebedev is Russian
He holds dual British-Russian nationality.
See's himself as British"Born in Russia, son of ex KGB agent, and like you said, dual British - Russian National | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. "Their laws" that we helped to shape and that our representatives voted for. Here's a question. Have you considered if the laws are good or not? Or do you only care about the geographical location with which these laws originated? I only care about our laws made in this country by our elected representatives,not laws made by unelected EU commissioners behind closed doors. We may have voted some through but we didn't make them. Laws in the eu are not made by the parliament they are made by the unelected commission. The laws in this country have to pass through the House Of Lords (unelected), and if you think some arent made off the back of lobbying, then I'm afraid you must be very naive. The lordship cannot stop them just give an opinion. But even if they could, so what? They're British. Our politicians. Lord Lebedev is Russian
He holds dual British-Russian nationality.
See's himself as British"Let's see if the poster in question is happy, or unhappy about this person being in a position to affect legislation. | |||
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"Some folk on here are obsessed with handing our country away and letting foreign politicians do our thinking. The only people who should decide what happens in the uk are us through elected representatives. We shouldn't ever have to parly or make deals with anyone about our country. I couldn't care less if the eu succeeds or fails, well I hope it fails soon. If they are all rich I couldn't give a toss( but they won't be. The east and south live off the north and west. The Germas can'tpay forever.) It's about self determination, self governance. When the money dries up they will still be trapped in a political construct that will not allow them to go their own way. Anyone here fancy parlying with their neighbours about how they run their lives or homes? Not likely. Money comes and goes but when you have no freedom what do you have? How have your freedoms changed since January 31st 2020, what can you do now that you couldn’t before? Anything we want provided we have politicians prepared to seize the day. We don't. Brexit hasn't failed, it's not happened because the traitors in charge haven't finished it or even thought about it. They've done nothing but refuse to make the most of it courtesy of the Whitehall bureaucracy and deeply unpatriotic politicians. How have your freedoms changed? You voted for this,
Your damn right I did. In spades.
Let me ask you something. Do you believe in sovereignty and self determination? "So does Scotland have the right to sovereignty and self determination? Wales? How about Yorkshire? How about Stratford Upon Avon? How about West Street nowheresville? Or No.5 West St? How small shall we go with that? What determines a nation state and why? | |||
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"Some folk on here are obsessed with handing our country away and letting foreign politicians do our thinking. The only people who should decide what happens in the uk are us through elected representatives. We shouldn't ever have to parly or make deals with anyone about our country. I couldn't care less if the eu succeeds or fails, well I hope it fails soon. If they are all rich I couldn't give a toss( but they won't be. The east and south live off the north and west. The Germas can'tpay forever.) It's about self determination, self governance. When the money dries up they will still be trapped in a political construct that will not allow them to go their own way. Anyone here fancy parlying with their neighbours about how they run their lives or homes? Not likely. Money comes and goes but when you have no freedom what do you have? " That is rather naive. Firstly nobody is "obsessed with handing our country away". That is melodramatic. Nor did "foreign politicians do our thinking". After much negotiation we formed laws that were mutually beneficial. Are you able to identify any that were universally bad for the UK? Any trade negotiation that we make is? a parlay and deal with people not in our country and if we don't want to do any then we fall back on the WTO which was also the result of a "deal" with an external court who's rules we do not make and have to abide by. The Southern and Eastern states have become wealthier. Not through direct financial transfers, but through improved infrastructure and industry. This has also improved living standards. This has grown the overall size of the EU economy to improve sales opportunity for all states and the organisation's international influence. The opportunity to travel and work is now more restricted as are trading opportunities with a nearby, wealthy market leading to cost increases to the UK and the closure of many businesses. This is a curtailment of freedom. Otherwise, all as you state. | |||
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" Brexit hasn't happened yet. Definitely has. The UK is no longer a member of the EU. Nope we still have a whole lot of their laws on our books . We will only be free once we ditch every last vestige of this foul construct. " They are directives . They are only law because our government made them law . You do know it was our government that wrote 75% of EU directives ? Yes the nasty big Germans did as we both agreed and suggested all the time but you believe the total bollocks you’re being fed! We along with France and Germany virtually ran the club because we had more power than the others. Fee free to give examples of any directives being abolished that will benefit you. | |||
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"I think you’re wasting your breath. Brexit delusion is like a cult. Evidence and facts don’t work, you just get a bunch of regurgitated stuff from the Daily Mail. It’s a wast of time until they’re directly affected. We just have to wait. Unfortunately the country is being ransacked in the meantime. " Doesn't even matter if they are directly affected. We've already seen them blame the EU, Foreigners, people who voted not to brexit, socialists etc. | |||
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"I think you’re wasting your breath. Brexit delusion is like a cult. Evidence and facts don’t work, you just get a bunch of regurgitated stuff from the Daily Mail. It’s a wast of time until they’re directly affected. We just have to wait. Unfortunately the country is being ransacked in the meantime. " Whst on earth is delusional about wanting self governance? | |||
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"I think you’re wasting your breath. Brexit delusion is like a cult. Evidence and facts don’t work, you just get a bunch of regurgitated stuff from the Daily Mail. It’s a wast of time until they’re directly affected. We just have to wait. Unfortunately the country is being ransacked in the meantime. Whst on earth is delusional about wanting self governance?" You haven’t got self governance | |||
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"I think you’re wasting your breath. Brexit delusion is like a cult. Evidence and facts don’t work, you just get a bunch of regurgitated stuff from the Daily Mail. It’s a wast of time until they’re directly affected. We just have to wait. Unfortunately the country is being ransacked in the meantime. Whst on earth is delusional about wanting self governance?" You didn't not have "self-governance" before. What are your criteria? You have already been challenged on this thread. | |||
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"I could be wrong here (but don't think I am) but I feel sometimes people who hate Brexit think that reversing Brexit will stir the economy out of the doldrums. It won’t. Even way before Brexit was a word and the UK left the EU, there were signs of economic crisis all around, from stagnant wages and corporate addiction to cheap labour and the worst productivity slump since the 19th century. Sorry thats the fact." What are your thoughts on the loss of freedom of movement? | |||
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"I could be wrong here (but don't think I am) but I feel sometimes people who hate Brexit think that reversing Brexit will stir the economy out of the doldrums. It won’t. Even way before Brexit was a word and the UK left the EU, there were signs of economic crisis all around, from stagnant wages and corporate addiction to cheap labour and the worst productivity slump since the 19th century. Sorry thats the fact." Who has suggested "reversing Brexit"? It is not actually possible, is it? Has Brexit helped the economy in any way? Why does the economic modelling indicate that there has been a significant cost to Brexit? | |||
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"I could be wrong here (but don't think I am) but I feel sometimes people who hate Brexit think that reversing Brexit will stir the economy out of the doldrums. It won’t. Even way before Brexit was a word and the UK left the EU, there were signs of economic crisis all around, from stagnant wages and corporate addiction to cheap labour and the worst productivity slump since the 19th century. Sorry thats the fact." I agree that rejoining the EU won't undo the damage done by brexit. But I think it should be investigated as an option. | |||
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"I could be wrong here (but don't think I am) but I feel sometimes people who hate Brexit think that reversing Brexit will stir the economy out of the doldrums. It won’t. Even way before Brexit was a word and the UK left the EU, there were signs of economic crisis all around, from stagnant wages and corporate addiction to cheap labour and the worst productivity slump since the 19th century. Sorry thats the fact." The closest analogy we have is what happened after the financial crisis in 2007/8 and the whole of the EU went into recession. The U.K. was the first country to emerge from that recession thanks in the main to its strong service sector supported in a great part by EU workers. Of course things are different now, but filling the employee vacancies through freedom of movement would give a double boost to the economy - firstly by having 1,300,000 more people being productive and secondly giving business the confidence to know that there is a pool of employees out there waiting and ready to be tapped. This Conservative Government get so many things epically wrong with the economy and it’s hard to wonder sometimes who is advising them. | |||
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"I could be wrong here (but don't think I am) but I feel sometimes people who hate Brexit think that reversing Brexit will stir the economy out of the doldrums. It won’t. Even way before Brexit was a word and the UK left the EU, there were signs of economic crisis all around, from stagnant wages and corporate addiction to cheap labour and the worst productivity slump since the 19th century. Sorry thats the fact. The closest analogy we have is what happened after the financial crisis in 2007/8 and the whole of the EU went into recession. The U.K. was the first country to emerge from that recession thanks in the main to its strong service sector supported in a great part by EU workers. Of course things are different now, but filling the employee vacancies through freedom of movement would give a double boost to the economy - firstly by having 1,300,000 more people being productive and secondly giving business the confidence to know that there is a pool of employees out there waiting and ready to be tapped. This Conservative Government get so many things epically wrong with the economy and it’s hard to wonder sometimes who is advising them." Immigration now is higher than ever, the idea that the economy is suffering from a lack of immigrants is patent nonsense. | |||
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"I could be wrong here (but don't think I am) but I feel sometimes people who hate Brexit think that reversing Brexit will stir the economy out of the doldrums. It won’t. Even way before Brexit was a word and the UK left the EU, there were signs of economic crisis all around, from stagnant wages and corporate addiction to cheap labour and the worst productivity slump since the 19th century. Sorry thats the fact. I agree that rejoining the EU won't undo the damage done by brexit. But I think it should be investigated as an option." It won’t happen for a very long time. The EU themselves would probably want to see many years of sustained support for the movement whilst the country itself tip toes back into alignment through associations similar to EFTA. Tremendous damage has been done by this folly and the history books will record it as just that. But fixing the damage will take decades in my opinion. | |||
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"I could be wrong here (but don't think I am) but I feel sometimes people who hate Brexit think that reversing Brexit will stir the economy out of the doldrums. It won’t. Even way before Brexit was a word and the UK left the EU, there were signs of economic crisis all around, from stagnant wages and corporate addiction to cheap labour and the worst productivity slump since the 19th century. Sorry thats the fact. The closest analogy we have is what happened after the financial crisis in 2007/8 and the whole of the EU went into recession. The U.K. was the first country to emerge from that recession thanks in the main to its strong service sector supported in a great part by EU workers. Of course things are different now, but filling the employee vacancies through freedom of movement would give a double boost to the economy - firstly by having 1,300,000 more people being productive and secondly giving business the confidence to know that there is a pool of employees out there waiting and ready to be tapped. This Conservative Government get so many things epically wrong with the economy and it’s hard to wonder sometimes who is advising them. Immigration now is higher than ever, the idea that the economy is suffering from a lack of immigrants is patent nonsense." The EU gave us the four freedoms, one of which was freedom of movement of labour. If immigration is higher now than it was when we were in the EU then my guess (and it’s only a guess because I don’t know) is that a large percentage of current immigrants are not working - spousal immigration, student immigration and potentially immigrants who are here and awaiting permission to stay and work. If the numbers were so high - how do we have a shortage of employees in a shrinking economy? | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation)" What makes you say that the EU is not a federation? | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation) What makes you say that the EU is not a federation?" Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation". | |||
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"I could be wrong here (but don't think I am) but I feel sometimes people who hate Brexit think that reversing Brexit will stir the economy out of the doldrums. It won’t. Even way before Brexit was a word and the UK left the EU, there were signs of economic crisis all around, from stagnant wages and corporate addiction to cheap labour and the worst productivity slump since the 19th century. Sorry thats the fact. The closest analogy we have is what happened after the financial crisis in 2007/8 and the whole of the EU went into recession. The U.K. was the first country to emerge from that recession thanks in the main to its strong service sector supported in a great part by EU workers. Of course things are different now, but filling the employee vacancies through freedom of movement would give a double boost to the economy - firstly by having 1,300,000 more people being productive and secondly giving business the confidence to know that there is a pool of employees out there waiting and ready to be tapped. This Conservative Government get so many things epically wrong with the economy and it’s hard to wonder sometimes who is advising them. Immigration now is higher than ever, the idea that the economy is suffering from a lack of immigrants is patent nonsense. The EU gave us the four freedoms, one of which was freedom of movement of labour. If immigration is higher now than it was when we were in the EU then my guess (and it’s only a guess because I don’t know) is that a large percentage of current immigrants are not working - spousal immigration, student immigration and potentially immigrants who are here and awaiting permission to stay and work. If the numbers were so high - how do we have a shortage of employees in a shrinking economy?" Who voted for freedom of movement? The eu gave us no borders which makes it so much easier for drug smugglers, people trafficking, criminal elements to drift into your country. Yeah they gave us a lot. Demands for more money to pay for others, loss of control over our fishing waters, the lack of the right to trade freely with countries outside the eu, about 86% of the world's economy. We had about 7% of the total vote in the eu parliament which made it easier for others to out vote us and ,BOOM, have laws forced upon us. Countries like Poland,Hungary ( wait for the fascist claims) ,Italy are getting pissed with the EU and it's dictatorial behaviour. Don't ask for examples just look it up. | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation) What makes you say that the EU is not a federation? Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation"." It's a federal system.  | |||
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"I could be wrong here (but don't think I am) but I feel sometimes people who hate Brexit think that reversing Brexit will stir the economy out of the doldrums. It won’t. Even way before Brexit was a word and the UK left the EU, there were signs of economic crisis all around, from stagnant wages and corporate addiction to cheap labour and the worst productivity slump since the 19th century. Sorry thats the fact. The closest analogy we have is what happened after the financial crisis in 2007/8 and the whole of the EU went into recession. The U.K. was the first country to emerge from that recession thanks in the main to its strong service sector supported in a great part by EU workers. Of course things are different now, but filling the employee vacancies through freedom of movement would give a double boost to the economy - firstly by having 1,300,000 more people being productive and secondly giving business the confidence to know that there is a pool of employees out there waiting and ready to be tapped. This Conservative Government get so many things epically wrong with the economy and it’s hard to wonder sometimes who is advising them. Immigration now is higher than ever, the idea that the economy is suffering from a lack of immigrants is patent nonsense. The EU gave us the four freedoms, one of which was freedom of movement of labour. If immigration is higher now than it was when we were in the EU then my guess (and it’s only a guess because I don’t know) is that a large percentage of current immigrants are not working - spousal immigration, student immigration and potentially immigrants who are here and awaiting permission to stay and work. If the numbers were so high - how do we have a shortage of employees in a shrinking economy? Who voted for freedom of movement? The eu gave us no borders which makes it so much easier for drug smugglers, people trafficking, criminal elements to drift into your country. Yeah they gave us a lot. Demands for more money to pay for others, loss of control over our fishing waters, the lack of the right to trade freely with countries outside the eu, about 86% of the world's economy. We had about 7% of the total vote in the eu parliament which made it easier for others to out vote us and ,BOOM, have laws forced upon us. Countries like Poland,Hungary ( wait for the fascist claims) ,Italy are getting pissed with the EU and it's dictatorial behaviour. Don't ask for examples just look it up. " We voted to sign up to the 1952 Treaty of Rome which includes: "the free movement of persons, services, goods and capital." Freedom of movement also makes it so much easier to go on holiday, get a job, form relationships and conduct business with people in a large number of nearby and wealthy countries. What percentage of laws did we vote against that were "forced upon us"? Do you know? Poland and Hungary have been severely constraining press freedom and judicial independence. This is true, isn't it? That doesn't prevent them and Italy from being upset at the levels of immigration they encounter as border states. The EU has not provided adequate funding to Frontex to do the job it should, but that appears to now be changing. Nothing to do with "dictatorial behaviour" but I'm sure that you can be more specific as your definition of "dictatorial" is likely different to the conventional one. | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation) What makes you say that the EU is not a federation? Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation". It's a federal system. "No, it isn't. Member states have control over both internal and external affairs. They are constrained to act together on some instances and choose to in others. They also take different approaches depending on the circumstances. | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation) What makes you say that the EU is not a federation? Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation". It's a federal system.
No, it isn't. Member states have control over both internal and external affairs. They are constrained to act together on some instances and choose to in others. They also take different approaches depending on the circumstances."Duh elected representatives . Just like our states it is federal. Enlighten me on the differences? Each state has their own constitution for governance do they not ? Laws apply to each individual state just like the laws apply in the EU to each individual nation. Except when the laws are agreed on a federal level then it applies to everyone. | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation) What makes you say that the EU is not a federation? Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation". It's a federal system.
No, it isn't. Member states have control over both internal and external affairs. They are constrained to act together on some instances and choose to in others. They also take different approaches depending on the circumstances. Duh elected representatives . Just like our states it is federal. Enlighten me on the differences? Each state has their own constitution for governance do they not ? Laws apply to each individual state just like the laws apply in the EU to each individual nation. Except when the laws are agreed on a federal level then it applies to everyone. "What criminal or civil laws are enforced or even exist at the EU level? What foreign policy and military activities are EU states compelled to follow? I think that you are about to embark on a long, and pretty boring technical discussion on a subject that you don't know a lot about. I don't know why. Please don't. | |||
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"I view as federal you view it representative.its oddly similar to our system . What the difference in your view ? " I will wait for your copy and pastes | |||
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"I view as federal you view it representative.its oddly similar to our system . What the difference in your view ? " Blu the EU is not a Federation. Yet! It is not the same as the USA for some of the reasons Easy already posed above. It was fear of a move towards becoming a Federation that in part drove the Brexit movement. Some elements in the EU want to ultimately become a USE. Ironically the likelihood of this happening has increased with Brexit as it would have been blocked by the UK as long as the UK was a member state. | |||
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"I view as federal you view it representative.its oddly similar to our system . What the difference in your view ? " You can view it anyway you'd like. Doesn't make it true. This stemmed from the poster who enjoys arguing semantics, he suggested that the UK joining a hypothetical non-federal large multi national trading block was evidence that we have reason to be positive about brexit. We were part of a large multi national non-federal trading block previously. | |||
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"I view as federal you view it representative.its oddly similar to our system . What the difference in your view ? You can view it anyway you'd like. Doesn't make it true. This stemmed from the poster who enjoys arguing semantics, he suggested that the UK joining a hypothetical non-federal large multi national trading block was evidence that we have reason to be positive about brexit. We were part of a large multi national non-federal trading block previously. " Ah but aren’t many members of this other trading block one time colonies of the British Empire? They will surely know their place once we are a member! | |||
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"I view as federal you view it representative.its oddly similar to our system . What the difference in your view ? You can view it anyway you'd like. Doesn't make it true. This stemmed from the poster who enjoys arguing semantics, he suggested that the UK joining a hypothetical non-federal large multi national trading block was evidence that we have reason to be positive about brexit. We were part of a large multi national non-federal trading block previously. Ah but aren’t many members of this other trading block one time colonies of the British Empire? They will surely know their place once we are a member!"
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"I view as federal you view it representative.its oddly similar to our system . What the difference in your view ? You can view it anyway you'd like. Doesn't make it true. This stemmed from the poster who enjoys arguing semantics, he suggested that the UK joining a hypothetical non-federal large multi national trading block was evidence that we have reason to be positive about brexit. We were part of a large multi national non-federal trading block previously. Ah but aren’t many members of this other trading block one time colonies of the British Empire? They will surely know their place once we are a member!" Until China joins... | |||
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"I view as federal you view it representative.its oddly similar to our system . What the difference in your view ? You can view it anyway you'd like. Doesn't make it true. This stemmed from the poster who enjoys arguing semantics, he suggested that the UK joining a hypothetical non-federal large multi national trading block was evidence that we have reason to be positive about brexit. We were part of a large multi national non-federal trading block previously. Ah but aren’t many members of this other trading block one time colonies of the British Empire? They will surely know their place once we are a member! Until China joins..." Seeing as this entire "reason to be positive about brexit" scenario is entirely hypothetical. We can just say we only want countries that will be subservient to the UK. | |||
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"I view as federal you view it representative.its oddly similar to our system . What the difference in your view ? You can view it anyway you'd like. Doesn't make it true. This stemmed from the poster who enjoys arguing semantics, he suggested that the UK joining a hypothetical non-federal large multi national trading block was evidence that we have reason to be positive about brexit. We were part of a large multi national non-federal trading block previously. Ah but aren’t many members of this other trading block one time colonies of the British Empire? They will surely know their place once we are a member! Until China joins... Seeing as this entire "reason to be positive about brexit" scenario is entirely hypothetical. We can just say we only want countries that will be subservient to the UK. " Everyone loves a lopsided "deal" if you have the power. That is why the USA has traditionally pursued bilateral trade deals. They are also quicker to negotiate. However, if you are negotiating with a peer or a larger partner then they become just as complicated with fewer rewards than a multilateral deal. Lot's of small, low value deals with relatively poor partners or complex valuable ones with richer partners. You need a big stick (i.e. economy/market size) for the latter. | |||
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"I view as federal you view it representative.its oddly similar to our system . What the difference in your view ? You can view it anyway you'd like. Doesn't make it true. This stemmed from the poster who enjoys arguing semantics, he suggested that the UK joining a hypothetical non-federal large multi national trading block was evidence that we have reason to be positive about brexit. We were part of a large multi national non-federal trading block previously. Ah but aren’t many members of this other trading block one time colonies of the British Empire? They will surely know their place once we are a member! Until China joins..." Boxer Rebellion Redux | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation)" "What makes you say that the EU is not a federation?" "Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation"." Well the OED's definition is "a group of states with a central government but independence in internal affairs". The EU fits nicely into that definition. What definition of 'federation' are you using, and why does the EU not match it? | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation) What makes you say that the EU is not a federation? Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation". Well the OED's definition is "a group of states with a central government but independence in internal affairs". The EU fits nicely into that definition. What definition of 'federation' are you using, and why does the EU not match it?" EU states are also independent in external affairs except for trade tariffs. | |||
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"It’s obviously socialist and left wing if you criticise the current government even though plenty of traditional Tories and centrists are criticising this government. The pendulum has swung so far right, Moseley would be considered a moderate " | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation) What makes you say that the EU is not a federation? Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation". Well the OED's definition is "a group of states with a central government but independence in internal affairs". The EU fits nicely into that definition. What definition of 'federation' are you using, and why does the EU not match it?" The EU does not have a central government. I thought you'd be all over this one with your skills of arguing miniscule details. | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation) What makes you say that the EU is not a federation? Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation". Well the OED's definition is "a group of states with a central government but independence in internal affairs". The EU fits nicely into that definition. What definition of 'federation' are you using, and why does the EU not match it? The EU does not have a central government. I thought you'd be all over this one with your skills of arguing miniscule details. " Calling something a Federated is a nice simple explanation of something extremely complex. But it completely misses the mark. Normalisation of rules and regulations to compete in a large global market reduces inconsistencies. However there is a trade off where certain rules are contrary to that countries interests and needs. For many there were certain social rights which had to be adjusted. This was a line many people were ill informed of. This resulted in the backlash. A gilded cage some will say. The EU became inflexible, where consensus would have normally prevailed, it became a club where the largest voices prevailed. I am not saying that Brexit was the only option, I am saying we could have been stronger, our arguments better, but we ended up sending people who were more content in picking up a pay check as opposed to furthering British interests. | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation)" "What makes you say that the EU is not a federation?" "Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation"." "Well the OED's definition is "a group of states with a central government but independence in internal affairs". The EU fits nicely into that definition. What definition of 'federation' are you using, and why does the EU not match it?" "The EU does not have a central government. I thought you'd be all over this one with your skills of arguing miniscule details. " The European Council seems to me, on the "quacks like a duck" basis, to be a government. Dictionary definitions are woolly about what exactly a government is, so perhaps we should try a different tack. What do you think is a fundamental part of a federation that the EU lacks? | |||
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"People just focus on the negative attention on things but never mention the positives What are the positives of Brexit? If they existed, the Tories would be shouting about them in the press.. ;,, ,,, one benefit of Brexit is that we can now roll out freeports , Sunak said so today , Johnson , ReesMogg and others have also pointed out this benefit of Brexit as we could not have done so had we remained in The EU ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,, SPOILER ALERT ,,,,, there are 80 freeports in The EU ,,,, SPOILER ALERT 2 ,,,The UK had Freeports while a member of The EU until the Conservative Government decided we didn't want or need them , This shows the problem remainers ( like me ) have with the brexitiers , if there are benefits please let us (me) know the benefit do not lie about a benefit which is not a benefit , the fact they have to lie suggests they are struggling to find the sun lit uplands " I only read a little of this when they were first being created but from what I gather is that the freeports in the UK today are not the same as what went before and not the same as what the EU use. They share the same name but the regulations on them are different to the point that today's UK Freeports would break EU law if we were members. Might have it wrong but that's how I heard it | |||
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"People just focus on the negative attention on things but never mention the positives What are the positives of Brexit? If they existed, the Tories would be shouting about them in the press.. ;,, ,,, one benefit of Brexit is that we can now roll out freeports , Sunak said so today , Johnson , ReesMogg and others have also pointed out this benefit of Brexit as we could not have done so had we remained in The EU ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,, SPOILER ALERT ,,,,, there are 80 freeports in The EU ,,,, SPOILER ALERT 2 ,,,The UK had Freeports while a member of The EU until the Conservative Government decided we didn't want or need them , This shows the problem remainers ( like me ) have with the brexitiers , if there are benefits please let us (me) know the benefit do not lie about a benefit which is not a benefit , the fact they have to lie suggests they are struggling to find the sun lit uplands I only read a little of this when they were first being created but from what I gather is that the freeports in the UK today are not the same as what went before and not the same as what the EU use. They share the same name but the regulations on them are different to the point that today's UK Freeports would break EU law if we were members. Might have it wrong but that's how I heard it" Don’t want to put a dampener on the people living near a free port as they will create some local jobs. The overall reality for the country is that they are of no benefit. They take investment away from other U.K. areas and that’s about it. As they are tax havens they will only be of benefit to ship and store goods avoiding duty while they reside. There are tax breaks for new builds again limited time and not helping the country overall. They are a waste of space if they are not used as a hub for logistics. ( hence the big sheds) Now we are out of the EU foreign investors looking to sell into the EU won’t be keen on the U.K. anyway due to further customs costs. Sorry but it’s a myth that they bring increased inward investment. They don’t they just move it around. | |||
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"... based on a misunderstanding of the EU (it's not a federation) What makes you say that the EU is not a federation? Because the EU does not fit into the definition of the word "federation". Well the OED's definition is "a group of states with a central government but independence in internal affairs". The EU fits nicely into that definition. What definition of 'federation' are you using, and why does the EU not match it? The EU does not have a central government. I thought you'd be all over this one with your skills of arguing miniscule details. The European Council seems to me, on the "quacks like a duck" basis, to be a government. Dictionary definitions are woolly about what exactly a government is, so perhaps we should try a different tack. What do you think is a fundamental part of a federation that the EU lacks?" A centralised government. So to recap. The reason to feel positive about brexit is: We might be able to join a hypothetical, large non-federal trading block as one of the more prominent members. Instead of being a prominent member of a large trading block which is not hypothetical, but could be argued is semi-federal. | |||
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"So to recap. The reason to feel positive about brexit is: We might be able to join a hypothetical, large non-federal trading block as one of the more prominent members. Instead of being a prominent member of a large trading block which is not hypothetical, but could be argued is semi-federal." Be fair. We started this whole back-and-forth with you asking for evidence for how brexit might be a success, no one is claiming that it was a good reason to leave. | |||
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"So to recap. The reason to feel positive about brexit is: We might be able to join a hypothetical, large non-federal trading block as one of the more prominent members. Instead of being a prominent member of a large trading block which is not hypothetical, but could be argued is semi-federal. Be fair. We started this whole back-and-forth with you asking for evidence for how brexit might be a success, no one is claiming that it was a good reason to leave." I did. And this was the 3rd piece of evidence and/or reason to be optimistic. | |||
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"People just focus on the negative attention on things but never mention the positives What are the positives of Brexit? If they existed, the Tories would be shouting about them in the press.. ;,, ,,, one benefit of Brexit is that we can now roll out freeports , Sunak said so today , Johnson , ReesMogg and others have also pointed out this benefit of Brexit as we could not have done so had we remained in The EU ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,, SPOILER ALERT ,,,,, there are 80 freeports in The EU ,,,, SPOILER ALERT 2 ,,,The UK had Freeports while a member of The EU until the Conservative Government decided we didn't want or need them , This shows the problem remainers ( like me ) have with the brexitiers , if there are benefits please let us (me) know the benefit do not lie about a benefit which is not a benefit , the fact they have to lie suggests they are struggling to find the sun lit uplands I only read a little of this when they were first being created but from what I gather is that the freeports in the UK today are not the same as what went before and not the same as what the EU use. They share the same name but the regulations on them are different to the point that today's UK Freeports would break EU law if we were members. Might have it wrong but that's how I heard it Don’t want to put a dampener on the people living near a free port as they will create some local jobs. The overall reality for the country is that they are of no benefit. They take investment away from other U.K. areas and that’s about it. As they are tax havens they will only be of benefit to ship and store goods avoiding duty while they reside. There are tax breaks for new builds again limited time and not helping the country overall. They are a waste of space if they are not used as a hub for logistics. ( hence the big sheds) Now we are out of the EU foreign investors looking to sell into the EU won’t be keen on the U.K. anyway due to further customs costs. Sorry but it’s a myth that they bring increased inward investment. They don’t they just move it around. " Does that differ to the EU type Freeports . | |||
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"People just focus on the negative attention on things but never mention the positives What are the positives of Brexit? If they existed, the Tories would be shouting about them in the press.. ;,, ,,, one benefit of Brexit is that we can now roll out freeports , Sunak said so today , Johnson , ReesMogg and others have also pointed out this benefit of Brexit as we could not have done so had we remained in The EU ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,, SPOILER ALERT ,,,,, there are 80 freeports in The EU ,,,, SPOILER ALERT 2 ,,,The UK had Freeports while a member of The EU until the Conservative Government decided we didn't want or need them , This shows the problem remainers ( like me ) have with the brexitiers , if there are benefits please let us (me) know the benefit do not lie about a benefit which is not a benefit , the fact they have to lie suggests they are struggling to find the sun lit uplands I only read a little of this when they were first being created but from what I gather is that the freeports in the UK today are not the same as what went before and not the same as what the EU use. They share the same name but the regulations on them are different to the point that today's UK Freeports would break EU law if we were members. Might have it wrong but that's how I heard it Don’t want to put a dampener on the people living near a free port as they will create some local jobs. The overall reality for the country is that they are of no benefit. They take investment away from other U.K. areas and that’s about it. As they are tax havens they will only be of benefit to ship and store goods avoiding duty while they reside. There are tax breaks for new builds again limited time and not helping the country overall. They are a waste of space if they are not used as a hub for logistics. ( hence the big sheds) Now we are out of the EU foreign investors looking to sell into the EU won’t be keen on the U.K. anyway due to further customs costs. Sorry but it’s a myth that they bring increased inward investment. They don’t they just move it around. Does that differ to the EU type Freeports . " Probably only in tax rules but they could have been different before whilst in the EU as we had similar Free-ports years ago whilst in the EU so not sure that’s relevant. It’s just polishing a turd. Look at the investment in free ports they will shout. Don’t look at the U.K. towns that have lost out. No nothing to see there. The Conservative party abolished them as they saw no benefit for the economy. | |||
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"People just focus on the negative attention on things but never mention the positives What are the positives of Brexit? If they existed, the Tories would be shouting about them in the press.. ;,, ,,, one benefit of Brexit is that we can now roll out freeports , Sunak said so today , Johnson , ReesMogg and others have also pointed out this benefit of Brexit as we could not have done so had we remained in The EU ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,, SPOILER ALERT ,,,,, there are 80 freeports in The EU ,,,, SPOILER ALERT 2 ,,,The UK had Freeports while a member of The EU until the Conservative Government decided we didn't want or need them , This shows the problem remainers ( like me ) have with the brexitiers , if there are benefits please let us (me) know the benefit do not lie about a benefit which is not a benefit , the fact they have to lie suggests they are struggling to find the sun lit uplands I only read a little of this when they were first being created but from what I gather is that the freeports in the UK today are not the same as what went before and not the same as what the EU use. They share the same name but the regulations on them are different to the point that today's UK Freeports would break EU law if we were members. Might have it wrong but that's how I heard it Don’t want to put a dampener on the people living near a free port as they will create some local jobs. The overall reality for the country is that they are of no benefit. They take investment away from other U.K. areas and that’s about it. As they are tax havens they will only be of benefit to ship and store goods avoiding duty while they reside. There are tax breaks for new builds again limited time and not helping the country overall. They are a waste of space if they are not used as a hub for logistics. ( hence the big sheds) Now we are out of the EU foreign investors looking to sell into the EU won’t be keen on the U.K. anyway due to further customs costs. Sorry but it’s a myth that they bring increased inward investment. They don’t they just move it around. Does that differ to the EU type Freeports . Probably only in tax rules but they could have been different before whilst in the EU as we had similar Free-ports years ago whilst in the EU so not sure that’s relevant. It’s just polishing a turd. Look at the investment in free ports they will shout. Don’t look at the U.K. towns that have lost out. No nothing to see there. The Conservative party abolished them as they saw no benefit for the economy. " Sorry I could have worded that better. I mean the situation you mention about freeports moving jobs around, is that the same situation we had when we used to have Freeport years ago and the current EU freeports. As an example, if say Belgium built a new Freeport tomorrow, would it just move jobs around or would it be a benefit. As said, I only know that the new UK freeports are under different rules as EU ones | |||
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"So have I got this right... UK Freeports will basically be onshore tax havens that will allow companies to move their offices to and avoid Corporation Tax and potentially not be subject to the same Workers Rights legislation etc?" No. Freeports allow businesses to avoid some taxes (like SDLT and business rates), but they will still have to pay most normal taxes, including corporation tax. Freeports do not convey any relaxation of laws, so normal workers rights still apply. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/freeports#:~:text=1.-,What%20are%20Freeports%3F,of%20our%20most%20disadvantaged%20communities. | |||
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"As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!” It's a poor analogy I'm afraid. Domestic abusers commit their crimes by persuading the victim to come back, then treating them as badly as before. Even if you agree that Brexit has "hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you", it's not like it's going to happen again, is it." Nailed it. | |||
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"As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!” It's a poor analogy I'm afraid. Domestic abusers commit their crimes by persuading the victim to come back, then treating them as badly as before. Even if you agree that Brexit has "hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you", it's not like it's going to happen again, is it. Nailed it. " Brexit might not happen again. But what happens next time there is a vote with one clear path to a weaker and poorer country, just for the benefit of the few at the top? It doesn't feel like we as an electorate have learned anything. | |||
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"As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!” It's a poor analogy I'm afraid. Domestic abusers commit their crimes by persuading the victim to come back, then treating them as badly as before. Even if you agree that Brexit has "hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you", it's not like it's going to happen again, is it. Nailed it. Brexit might not happen again. But what happens next time there is a vote with one clear path to a weaker and poorer country, just for the benefit of the few at the top? It doesn't feel like we as an electorate have learned anything. " You can't do anything about that unfortunately. | |||
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"As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!” It's a poor analogy I'm afraid. Domestic abusers commit their crimes by persuading the victim to come back, then treating them as badly as before. Even if you agree that Brexit has "hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you", it's not like it's going to happen again, is it. Nailed it. Brexit might not happen again. But what happens next time there is a vote with one clear path to a weaker and poorer country, just for the benefit of the few at the top? It doesn't feel like we as an electorate have learned anything. You can't do anything about that unfortunately. " Sadly not. Education is the key. Kids need to be taught how to understand and think critically about the information they receive. With all the misinformation out there on things like brexit, climate change, covid etc. It's more important than ever for people to be able to deal with it and tell the difference between reliable and unreliable 'news'. | |||
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"As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!” It's a poor analogy I'm afraid. Domestic abusers commit their crimes by persuading the victim to come back, then treating them as badly as before. Even if you agree that Brexit has "hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you", it's not like it's going to happen again, is it. Nailed it. Brexit might not happen again. But what happens next time there is a vote with one clear path to a weaker and poorer country, just for the benefit of the few at the top? It doesn't feel like we as an electorate have learned anything. You can't do anything about that unfortunately. Sadly not. Education is the key. Kids need to be taught how to understand and think critically about the information they receive. With all the misinformation out there on things like brexit, climate change, covid etc. It's more important than ever for people to be able to deal with it and tell the difference between reliable and unreliable 'news'. " But we sadly now live in a society that is predominantly media driven. We want answers now, and only want the brief short version. Media platforms exploit this perfectly. | |||
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"As I said on another thread... This whole “it’s happened now so just accept it and move on” is analogous to domestic abusers “I know I have hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you, but that is in the past now, it happened, so time to move on!” It's a poor analogy I'm afraid. Domestic abusers commit their crimes by persuading the victim to come back, then treating them as badly as before. Even if you agree that Brexit has "hurt you, perhaps permanently damaged you", it's not like it's going to happen again, is it. Nailed it. Brexit might not happen again. But what happens next time there is a vote with one clear path to a weaker and poorer country, just for the benefit of the few at the top? It doesn't feel like we as an electorate have learned anything. You can't do anything about that unfortunately. Sadly not. Education is the key. Kids need to be taught how to understand and think critically about the information they receive. With all the misinformation out there on things like brexit, climate change, covid etc. It's more important than ever for people to be able to deal with it and tell the difference between reliable and unreliable 'news'. But we sadly now live in a society that is predominantly media driven. We want answers now, and only want the brief short version. Media platforms exploit this perfectly. " I agree. The media plays a huge role in shaping the modern world. | |||
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"Also if people had a good think about it we would of had a better deal with EU in terms of trade and Coorperation if people were more united on the result of Brexit regardless on how you voted for it. Instead we had chaos, rancour, confusion and disunity to a point where people were using delay tactics to not carry out a democratic vote. So I don't blame Brexit entirely I blame the people who couldn't except the vote and make the most of it at the very least." are you referring to Boris et al who refused to vote for Theresa Mays deal? | |||
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"Also if people had a good think about it we would of had a better deal with EU in terms of trade and Coorperation if people were more united on the result of Brexit regardless on how you voted for it. Instead we had chaos, rancour, confusion and disunity to a point where people were using delay tactics to not carry out a democratic vote. So I don't blame Brexit entirely I blame the people who couldn't except the vote and make the most of it at the very least." "United" behind what version of Brexit? You may be willing to offer your unqualified support to something that has not been defined. I am not. Tell me the plan and I will tell you if I support it or not. I blame the people who "won" and don't know what it is that has been "won". Can you explain what the Brexit plan is that we should unite behind? Where is it written down? What does it involve? | |||
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"Also if people had a good think about it we would of had a better deal with EU in terms of trade and Coorperation if people were more united on the result of Brexit regardless on how you voted for it. Instead we had chaos, rancour, confusion and disunity to a point where people were using delay tactics to not carry out a democratic vote. So I don't blame Brexit entirely I blame the people who couldn't except the vote and make the most of it at the very least." So now that Brexit may actually be done with the NI Protocol modifications, why is a Brexiteer asking for a vote on the treaty when it was unacceptable to do so before? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/27/northern-ireland-brexit-deal-theresa-villiers-mps-vote | |||
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"Number 1 lets start with not calling people Brexiteers and Remainers as thats the type of divisive crap I'm talking about. I'm neither as I always held a neutral position in the Brexit debate from 2016. Number 2 I can't tell you what the plan is for Brexit because I wasn't there when the negotiations were done but believe me if I was there I would of done them much differently to how government did because for one they started on 2 bending knees and ended up on all 4 limps which is a very weak position to start on any negotiations. I would have actually started the negotiations with no deal with a plan on how to mitigate the effects of what that could cause until the EU come back with a reasonable deal that the country could agree with. You always have to play your strongest hand when it comes to things until a reasonable can be concluded" So your blaming Teressa May and her government | |||
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"Number 1 lets start with not calling people Brexiteers and Remainers as thats the type of divisive crap I'm talking about. I'm neither as I always held a neutral position in the Brexit debate from 2016. Number 2 I can't tell you what the plan is for Brexit because I wasn't there when the negotiations were done but believe me if I was there I would of done them much differently to how government did because for one they started on 2 bending knees and ended up on all 4 limps which is a very weak position to start on any negotiations. I would of actually started the negotiations with no deal with a plan on how to mitigate the effects of what that could cause until the EU come back with a reasonable deal that the country could agree with. You always have to play your strongest hand when it comes to things until a reasonable can be concluded" There was no plan for what to do if as it happened leave won, it's why Gove conveniently said Boris doesn't have the ability after Cameron dumped it in their lap.. | |||
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"It was very dangerous to leave the E.U without a plan " I agree, | |||
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"Number 1 lets start with not calling people Brexiteers and Remainers as thats the type of divisive crap I'm talking about. I'm neither as I always held a neutral position in the Brexit debate from 2016. Number 2 I can't tell you what the plan is for Brexit because I wasn't there when the negotiations were done but believe me if I was there I would of done them much differently to how government did because for one they started on 2 bending knees and ended up on all 4 limps which is a very weak position to start on any negotiations. I would of actually started the negotiations with no deal with a plan on how to mitigate the effects of what that could cause until the EU come back with a reasonable deal that the country could agree with. You always have to play your strongest hand when it comes to things until a reasonable can be concluded" "I blame the people who couldn't except the vote and make the most of it at the very least." That is not a neutral position. That is divisive even if you are not giving those people a name. Why don't you equally blame the people who won and had no plan about what they wanted and therefore no clue what to negotiate for? My point is exactly that you couldn't know the plan about Brexit then and you cannot know it now because there isn't one. You therefore cannot tell us what to support or make work. Do you actually know what the consequences of "no deal" would have been and if that was something that the country could have survived? Consequently you cannot possibly know if the multiple Ministers and Prime Ministers who negotiated were being strong or weak. You have no idea if we were playing with our strongest hand. You are just claiming, without any information, that you would have done better. "The country" was not offered an opportunity to agree on any plan. The opposition party's and many Conservatives wanted a vote on whatever deal was to be offered. Instead of that, we had a general election based on an imaginary "oven ready" deal which is only now being resolved by somebody else. | |||
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"It was very dangerous to leave the E.U without a plan " This is true. We did though. Then we negotiated without a plan. We still have no plan. | |||
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"It was very dangerous to leave the E.U without a plan " Yet here we are...  | |||
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"But also Brexit is not the destination, its a process" What process? Enroute to what? | |||
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"But also Brexit is not the destination, its a process" Fail to plan, plan to fail | |||
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