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TG woman being moved prison

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By *astandFeisty OP   Couple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

After the Trans community were largely on Sturgeons side last week.

What do you make of today's statement?

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

Get ready for the lawyers to get involved!

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

He has a "y"chromosome. He's male. He goes to male prison

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A man gets charged with 2 sexual offences against women and appears in court at the age of 29, then decides he's trans. This is one example of why that stupid law Sturgeon tried to pass was blocked last week. We bet the booking record from when he was first taken into custody has him recorded as male, and the police actually do ask you for your sex.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Physically still a male and given the type of conviction simply can't be in a women's prison..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A man gets charged with 2 sexual offences against women and appears in court at the age of 29, then decides he's trans. This is one example of why that stupid law Sturgeon tried to pass was blocked last week. We bet the booking record from when he was first taken into custody has him recorded as male, and the police actually do ask you for your sex."
how would the law have changed things ?

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"This is one example of why that stupid law Sturgeon tried to pass was blocked last week. We bet the booking record from when he was first taken into custody has him recorded as male, and the police actually do ask you for your sex."


"how would the law have changed things ? "

The law as it stands says that a trans person must get a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and live as their new gender for 2 years, before a gender recognition certificate can be issued. The recent Scottish law would have removed both of those hurdles.

Sturgeon now find herself in a difficult position. She's spent the last few months telling everyone that it's vitally important that trans people be able to self declare, and that they have a right to be respected. She now finds herself having to deny a trans person that very right, because it's politically inconvenient.

Westminster couldn't have hoped for a more perfect petard for her to be hoist by.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Interesting that under the Equality Act 2010 trans people can self declare. To discriminate against a self declared trans person would breach the Equality Act 2010.

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

What a bloody confusing mess!

The whole trans rights issue is a head explosion emoji!

As per the trans people in sport discussion, I totally support the right of anyone to identify how they want. But where that becomes tricky is when that has a detrimental impact on other people.

In this specific case we are dealing with a person who r***d (word we cannot use) two women. At the time he committed the crimes and was convicted of them he was a man and was sent to a male prison. Call me a cynic but at what point did this man decide he wanted to start identifying as a woman? Was there any evidence of this desire prior to his crimes? Was it during criminal proceedings? Since he entered prison?

Does this trans woman still have male genitalia? Have they started any hormone treatment (and if so how if they are in prison - I trust that taxpayers are not funding that)?

As I say, call me a cynic but I do not believe this person is sincere in identifying as a woman.

I also think people like this are undermining and damaging the whole trans rights debate.

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham


"What a bloody confusing mess!

The whole trans rights issue is a head explosion emoji!

As per the trans people in sport discussion, I totally support the right of anyone to identify how they want. But where that becomes tricky is when that has a detrimental impact on other people.

In this specific case we are dealing with a person who r***d (word we cannot use) two women. At the time he committed the crimes and was convicted of them he was a man and was sent to a male prison. Call me a cynic but at what point did this man decide he wanted to start identifying as a woman? Was there any evidence of this desire prior to his crimes? Was it during criminal proceedings? Since he entered prison?

Does this trans woman still have male genitalia? Have they started any hormone treatment (and if so how if they are in prison - I trust that taxpayers are not funding that)?

As I say, call me a cynic but I do not believe this person is sincere in identifying as a woman.

I also think people like this are undermining and damaging the whole trans rights debate."

I think this is spot on. The problem for the law is that it cannot deal with hopes and wishes - it has to deal with the harsh reality of life and the reality is that people like this exist who will abuse any loopholes.

All sides need to calm down and have a _proper_ debate about the impacts of these decisions. The current climate around this debate has too much heat and noise and that never makes good law.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"Interesting that under the Equality Act 2010 trans people can self declare. To discriminate against a self declared trans person would breach the Equality Act 2010. "

The Equality Act 2010 made 'trans' a protected characteristic, and prevents discrimination against trans people. It means that a trans person can't be treated less favourably than any other person. The act applies to anyone that is discriminated against because of trans issues, whether they are trans or not.

The Equality Act 2010 does not include any aspect of recognising a trans person's new gender. For that you need to look at the Gender Recognition Act 2004, which mandates a gender dysphoria diagnosis, and two years of living in a gender, before it can be legally recognised.

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By *queakyclean69erCouple
over a year ago

Torquay / Fleet

He is Male and should be in a male prison! The end

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

This whole sorry mess reflects the society we live in right now, scared and confused.

News reporters going out of their way to call this criminal a woman....

The fact that this person was even sent to a female prison in the first place after the crimes committed needs an enquiry.

When vulnerabilities are known, those with bad intent will always seek to exploit them.

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By *astandFeisty OP   Couple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

I'm genuinely surprised this hasn't attracted a bit more attention.

Isla Bryson did commit these crimes whilst she was male.

She did identify as female her first court appearance.

She has identified as female for over 2 years.

Says she was taking hormones (not sure if that's true)

This is gonna get tied up in legal matters I believe but not sure what the answer is.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

If you have the "equipment" to r*pe a woman, then you shouldn't be anywhere a female prison!

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma


"I'm genuinely surprised this hasn't attracted a bit more attention.

Isla Bryson did commit these crimes whilst she was male.

She did identify as female her first court appearance.

She has identified as female for over 2 years.

Says she was taking hormones (not sure if that's true)

This is gonna get tied up in legal matters I believe but not sure what the answer is."

I'm not surprised, I was expecting a silence because it has clearly exposed the flaws in the argument that if you think you are X, you are X and should be treated as X without question.

The fear factor of getting it wrong among people who are walking on eggshells stifles conversation, which in turn allows bad people to take advantage.

As mentioned above, this will also have a negative impact on people who are genuinely trans.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A man gets charged with 2 sexual offences against women and appears in court at the age of 29, then decides he's trans. This is one example of why that stupid law Sturgeon tried to pass was blocked last week. We bet the booking record from when he was first taken into custody has him recorded as male, and the police actually do ask you for your sex.how would the law have changed things ? "

That law, which didn't pass thankfully, would allow for folk to pretty much self identify without the need of going through strict legal or medical processes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The answer is clear and we're not afraid of being considered rude or bigoted.

The man that committed the sexual offences needs to go to a male prison with other men.

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

I think it's very obvious that this individual only declared trans status in order to "game the system"

It's obviously a massive danger (and infringement of women's rights) for them to be in a female prison

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"he entered her with his penis"

"what!!! no she entered her with her penis"

sounds like a Ricky Gervais joke.

"why is he going into a women's toilet?''

"he identifies as she"

"but he has a penis"

"how rude, she has a penis"

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By *astandFeisty OP   Couple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

I don't disagree that she shouldn't be amongst vulnerable women.

I was kinda asking where everyone who said 'Westminster are c*nts' last week for blocking the bill stood on this?

Last week, blocking that bill was transphobic apparently, now it seems its OK. Can't imagine what would be said if Westminster ruled she should be moved

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If anything it has shown the British government decision to block this bill was right for the right reasons (rare I know).

Women need spaces where they can feel safe, men should not be allowed to enter theses spaces, that's how it has been for me since my birth.

A man wanting to change gender should have every right to do so, on the understanding that a women's space is a women's space, which they cannot enter.

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By *ustintime69Man
over a year ago

london

A friend of mine is a forensic psychologist and his initial opinion is that the person in question is a narcissistic sociopath who is not truly trans and is using the furore to gain attention - the best place for people like him is probably a secure hospital rather than a prison but either way he is going to be an expensive drain on resources

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"A friend of mine is a forensic psychologist and his initial opinion is that the person in question is a narcissistic sociopath who is not truly trans and is using the furore to gain attention"

A genuine psychologist would not be making a diagnosis based on things that they've read in the news.

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma


"A friend of mine is a forensic psychologist and his initial opinion is that the person in question is a narcissistic sociopath who is not truly trans and is using the furore to gain attention

A genuine psychologist would not be making a diagnosis based on things that they've read in the news."

A friend who is a psychologist could offer an opinion though?

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"A friend of mine is a forensic psychologist and his initial opinion is that the person in question is a narcissistic sociopath who is not truly trans and is using the furore to gain attention"


"A genuine psychologist would not be making a diagnosis based on things that they've read in the news."


"A friend who is a psychologist could offer an opinion though?"

Psychologists are trained not to jump to conclusions. Any psychologist that is willing to offer an opinion based solely on what they've read in the media is not a very good practicioner.

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By *enny PR9TV/TS
over a year ago

Southport


"A friend of mine is a forensic psychologist and his initial opinion is that the person in question is a narcissistic sociopath who is not truly trans and is using the furore to gain attention

A genuine psychologist would not be making a diagnosis based on things that they've read in the news.

A friend who is a psychologist could offer an opinion though? "

What's the saying? 'Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one'.

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By *glyBettyTV/TS
over a year ago

About 3 feet away from the fence

Given the nature of the crimes committed, I feel like he should remain in a male prison for the rest of his sentence.

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma


"A friend of mine is a forensic psychologist and his initial opinion is that the person in question is a narcissistic sociopath who is not truly trans and is using the furore to gain attention

A genuine psychologist would not be making a diagnosis based on things that they've read in the news.

A friend who is a psychologist could offer an opinion though?

Psychologists are trained not to jump to conclusions. Any psychologist that is willing to offer an opinion based solely on what they've read in the media is not a very good practicioner."

Are you thinking this person is always on the job, doesn't get a bit of downtime in which they aren't held to such standards?

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By *iman2100Man
over a year ago

Glasgow

It is a very difficult question. Certainly, from a simplistic viewpoint I believe a prisoner with a penis and testicles should not be in a women's prison any more than a person with a vulva should be incarcerated in a male prison.

For me it does not matter what they identify as, if they have genitalia of a particular gender that should define where they are kept.

Having said that prisons have sections that deal with people who are ill, violent, at risk etc. People who are imprisoned and identify as the opposite gender from their genitalia should be treated respectfully and housed appropriately.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"A friend of mine is a forensic psychologist and his initial opinion is that the person in question is a narcissistic sociopath who is not truly trans and is using the furore to gain attention"


"A genuine psychologist would not be making a diagnosis based on things that they've read in the news."


"A friend who is a psychologist could offer an opinion though?"


"Psychologists are trained not to jump to conclusions. Any psychologist that is willing to offer an opinion based solely on what they've read in the media is not a very good practicioner."


"Are you thinking this person is always on the job, doesn't get a bit of downtime in which they aren't held to such standards?"

It's not about people acting one way professionally, and another in private, it's more about who they are.

For instance a judge learns over time that you cannot come to a proper conclusion unless you know all the facts. They learn to make sure everything is examined before coming to a judgement. Even in their private life, a judge won't easily condemn someone without making sure they have examined every angle.

Psychologists have a similar mindset. They know that what might appear a simple diagnosis can turn out to be something else entirely once they know more about the patient. A good psychologist will not offer any opinion about a patient that they haven't personally examined. Not because they are worried about being wrong, but because they are aware that they really don't know enough to come to a conclusion.

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By *ocketman99Man
over a year ago

fermanagh

This whole transgender thing is a complete mess. None of it makes any sense to me.

People are afraid to voice opinions for fear of being called transphobic - which is wrong.

If people have an opinion no matter how the should be able to voice their opinion in a calm collective and respectful manner.

The whole thing is one complete mess and this case proves it.

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By *aysOfOurLivesCouple
over a year ago

Essex

Remembering that current system still send males to male prison for sex crimes against males so “protection & prevention” isn’t really so good as we have it now.

So what are the options?

Create prisons for each identified gender?

E.g.. male, women, MF and FM

Send to prison based on current genitalia?

…still allowing for changes?

Send to prisons based on sexuality rather than gender (if the problem really is about the potential to sexually abuse inside)

IMHO..you loose certain rights and freedoms with certain convictions and that is what keeps it a deterrent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It looks like the outcome most people agree with has happened.

It's not immediately clear to me that this would have been different under the law the Scots wanted to pass.

It feels reasonable to me either which way that one looks at each case on its merits, and the balance is struck between risk to others and risk to the individual.

My own view is that the gender someone was identitying at the time of the crime is an important factor. As is the nature of the crime.

So I admit I'd probably land on a different answer for this case than a someone who has been publically identify for as a (trans) women for twenty years and is being sent down for tax fraud.

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By *ools and the brainCouple
over a year ago

couple, us we him her.

Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

"

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

"

He will think he’s in Hell when he gets put in a male prison sure the other inmates will give him a warm welcome.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

He will think he’s in Hell when he gets put in a male prison sure the other inmates will give him a warm welcome."

Too right, he?? deserves everything he?? gets!

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too? "

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all

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By *ools and the brainCouple
over a year ago

couple, us we him her.


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all"

So your defending a rxpist?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all"

If he is a woman how the hell did he manage to r&pe. Please explain??

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By *ocketman99Man
over a year ago

fermanagh

Well those individuals (whether they are male,female, intersex , or whatever they claim) that commit those type of crimes - well instead of figuring out do we put them in a woman’s prison or a man’s prison, maybe a firing squad would be more appropriate.

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all

If he is a woman how the hell did he manage to r&pe. Please explain??"

Don't try and bring your twisted white privelige cisgender logic into this

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all

So your defending a rxpist?"

Obviously I'm not defending the crime this evil woman has committed

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all

If he is a woman how the hell did he manage to r&pe. Please explain??

Don't try and bring your twisted white privelige cisgender logic into this "

No answer to my question then.

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By *amantMan
over a year ago

Alnmouth


"Well those individuals (whether they are male,female, intersex , or whatever they claim) that commit those type of crimes - well instead of figuring out do we put them in a woman’s prison or a man’s prison, maybe a firing squad would be more appropriate. "

Since 1973, the United States has executed more than 1,500 people. How many of them were later found to be innocent? 190. Does it make people safer? No. The death penalty doesn't keep people safe and you end up killing the wrong people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all

If he is a woman how the hell did he manage to r&pe. Please explain??

Don't try and bring your twisted white privelige cisgender logic into this

No answer to my question then. "
because it depends on whether you define a women via a sex definition or a gender definition.

To reiterate I agree with this decision.

But I'd be uncomfortable if we put someone who had fully transitioned into a male prison.

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all

If he is a woman how the hell did he manage to r&pe. Please explain??

Don't try and bring your twisted white privelige cisgender logic into this

No answer to my question then. "

She r&ped them with her penis obviously

It's not a difficult question to answer

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Find that statement laughable

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By *ustintime69Man
over a year ago

london


"A friend of mine is a forensic psychologist and his initial opinion is that the person in question is a narcissistic sociopath who is not truly trans and is using the furore to gain attention

A genuine psychologist would not be making a diagnosis based on things that they've read in the news.

A friend who is a psychologist could offer an opinion though?

Psychologists are trained not to jump to conclusions. Any psychologist that is willing to offer an opinion based solely on what they've read in the media is not a very good practicioner.

Are you thinking this person is always on the job, doesn't get a bit of downtime in which they aren't held to such standards?

It's not about people acting one way professionally, and another in private, it's more about who they are.

For instance a judge learns over time that you cannot come to a proper conclusion unless you know all the facts. They learn to make sure everything is examined before coming to a judgement. Even in their private life, a judge won't easily condemn someone without making sure they have examined every angle.

Psychologists have a similar mindset. They know that what might appear a simple diagnosis can turn out to be something else entirely once they know more about the patient. A good psychologist will not offer any opinion about a patient that they haven't personally examined. Not because they are worried about being wrong, but because they are aware that they really don't know enough to come to a conclusion."

You do know what a forensic psychologist is don’t you? As friends we were down the pub and discussing it and he said that was what seemed the most likely explanation for the behaviour but that it was only an opinion and not his case and as he was not appearing in a court of law your post is kind of irrelevant as any one with even the smallest knowledge of law would know that opinion and fact are separate concepts

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND


"Find that statement laughable "

Why?

I do hope the moderator is ensuring no transphobia is going to happen here

Whilst we can agree this woman is a convicted criminal that does not take away her innate womanhood, regardless of her body parts

I'm hoping other supporters of trans rights who frequent this forum will say something against what seems to be bigotry here

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma


"Find that statement laughable

Why?

I do hope the moderator is ensuring no transphobia is going to happen here

Whilst we can agree this woman is a convicted criminal that does not take away her innate womanhood, regardless of her body parts

I'm hoping other supporters of trans rights who frequent this forum will say something against what seems to be bigotry here "

You must be on a windup, got to be

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Find that statement laughable

Why?

I do hope the moderator is ensuring no transphobia is going to happen here

Whilst we can agree this woman is a convicted criminal that does not take away her innate womanhood, regardless of her body parts

I'm hoping other supporters of trans rights who frequent this forum will say something against what seems to be bigotry here "
it's a loosing battle to try and convince someone that we should look at gender not sex. For some people we should be categorising people based on what genitals they were born with.

For prisons, that's not a bad starting point (alongside seriousness of the crime). However given we should also consider the safety of inmantes, I can see why trans people would be a case for case basis.

This case has the eemotion Of being a sex crime and someone who started to transition after the crime.

Again, I wonder if ppl would be as happy sending a fully transitioned women into a male prison.

Or allow a trans man into a women's prison.

Safety in these situations becomes blurred ...

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By *itonthesideWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow


"Find that statement laughable

Why?

I do hope the moderator is ensuring no transphobia is going to happen here

Whilst we can agree this woman is a convicted criminal that does not take away her innate womanhood, regardless of her body parts

I'm hoping other supporters of trans rights who frequent this forum will say something against what seems to be bigotry here it's a loosing battle to try and convince someone that we should look at gender not sex. For some people we should be categorising people based on what genitals they were born with.

For prisons, that's not a bad starting point (alongside seriousness of the crime). However given we should also consider the safety of inmantes, I can see why trans people would be a case for case basis.

This case has the eemotion Of being a sex crime and someone who started to transition after the crime.

Again, I wonder if ppl would be as happy sending a fully transitioned women into a male prison.

Or allow a trans man into a women's prison.

Safety in these situations becomes blurred ..."

I genuinely don’t know where i stand on this and you are right the emotion of the crime plays a part

The right thing seems to be place inmates where the least risk exists, so not placing a sex offender against women in with women, and not placing a fully transitioned woman into a male prison

But then another part of me wonders why i am so concerned with how vulnerable a criminal might be when they most likely didn’t have that same care for the vulnerabilities of their victims

At what point is a punishment a punishment and you suffer the consequences of how that looks.

And then i go full circle back to but people still need to have human rights etc

As you can see i have no idea what the answer is

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Find that statement laughable

Why?

I do hope the moderator is ensuring no transphobia is going to happen here

Whilst we can agree this woman is a convicted criminal that does not take away her innate womanhood, regardless of her body parts

I'm hoping other supporters of trans rights who frequent this forum will say something against what seems to be bigotry here it's a loosing battle to try and convince someone that we should look at gender not sex. For some people we should be categorising people based on what genitals they were born with.

For prisons, that's not a bad starting point (alongside seriousness of the crime). However given we should also consider the safety of inmantes, I can see why trans people would be a case for case basis.

This case has the eemotion Of being a sex crime and someone who started to transition after the crime.

Again, I wonder if ppl would be as happy sending a fully transitioned women into a male prison.

Or allow a trans man into a women's prison.

Safety in these situations becomes blurred ...

I genuinely don’t know where i stand on this and you are right the emotion of the crime plays a part

The right thing seems to be place inmates where the least risk exists, so not placing a sex offender against women in with women, and not placing a fully transitioned woman into a male prison

But then another part of me wonders why i am so concerned with how vulnerable a criminal might be when they most likely didn’t have that same care for the vulnerabilities of their victims

At what point is a punishment a punishment and you suffer the consequences of how that looks.

And then i go full circle back to but people still need to have human rights etc

As you can see i have no idea what the answer is "
this is the debate right.

To add to your confusion, if you take the view that you needn't care about a criminals safety, why the outrage at placing a trans women in a women's prison ... After all the women are also criminal. Why care about their safety...

Thats the moral paradox in all this.

And so, I go back to case by case. Which is the way the system seems to be and from what I can tell will continue to be even if the new bill passes.

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma


"Find that statement laughable

Why?

I do hope the moderator is ensuring no transphobia is going to happen here

Whilst we can agree this woman is a convicted criminal that does not take away her innate womanhood, regardless of her body parts

I'm hoping other supporters of trans rights who frequent this forum will say something against what seems to be bigotry here it's a loosing battle to try and convince someone that we should look at gender not sex. For some people we should be categorising people based on what genitals they were born with.

For prisons, that's not a bad starting point (alongside seriousness of the crime). However given we should also consider the safety of inmantes, I can see why trans people would be a case for case basis.

This case has the eemotion Of being a sex crime and someone who started to transition after the crime.

Again, I wonder if ppl would be as happy sending a fully transitioned women into a male prison.

Or allow a trans man into a women's prison.

Safety in these situations becomes blurred ...

I genuinely don’t know where i stand on this and you are right the emotion of the crime plays a part

The right thing seems to be place inmates where the least risk exists, so not placing a sex offender against women in with women, and not placing a fully transitioned woman into a male prison

But then another part of me wonders why i am so concerned with how vulnerable a criminal might be when they most likely didn’t have that same care for the vulnerabilities of their victims

At what point is a punishment a punishment and you suffer the consequences of how that looks.

And then i go full circle back to but people still need to have human rights etc

As you can see i have no idea what the answer is this is the debate right.

To add to your confusion, if you take the view that you needn't care about a criminals safety, why the outrage at placing a trans women in a women's prison ... After all the women are also criminal. Why care about their safety...

Thats the moral paradox in all this.

And so, I go back to case by case. Which is the way the system seems to be and from what I can tell will continue to be even if the new bill passes. "

The point that is screaming to be heard is the transition happened after the crime.

This is not 100% about a trans person being placed in the right prison, the problem is the perceived ease at which a criminal who attacked 2 women was placed into a female prison until the media got hold of the story!

This person has created the scenario a lot of anti trans have been predicting would happen. Supporting this personis not supporting trans or women

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By *rvineguy79Man
over a year ago

Kilwinning

[Removed by poster at 29/01/23 20:15:55]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Find that statement laughable

Why?

I do hope the moderator is ensuring no transphobia is going to happen here

Whilst we can agree this woman is a convicted criminal that does not take away her innate womanhood, regardless of her body parts

I'm hoping other supporters of trans rights who frequent this forum will say something against what seems to be bigotry here it's a loosing battle to try and convince someone that we should look at gender not sex. For some people we should be categorising people based on what genitals they were born with.

For prisons, that's not a bad starting point (alongside seriousness of the crime). However given we should also consider the safety of inmantes, I can see why trans people would be a case for case basis.

This case has the eemotion Of being a sex crime and someone who started to transition after the crime.

Again, I wonder if ppl would be as happy sending a fully transitioned women into a male prison.

Or allow a trans man into a women's prison.

Safety in these situations becomes blurred ...

I genuinely don’t know where i stand on this and you are right the emotion of the crime plays a part

The right thing seems to be place inmates where the least risk exists, so not placing a sex offender against women in with women, and not placing a fully transitioned woman into a male prison

But then another part of me wonders why i am so concerned with how vulnerable a criminal might be when they most likely didn’t have that same care for the vulnerabilities of their victims

At what point is a punishment a punishment and you suffer the consequences of how that looks.

And then i go full circle back to but people still need to have human rights etc

As you can see i have no idea what the answer is this is the debate right.

To add to your confusion, if you take the view that you needn't care about a criminals safety, why the outrage at placing a trans women in a women's prison ... After all the women are also criminal. Why care about their safety...

Thats the moral paradox in all this.

And so, I go back to case by case. Which is the way the system seems to be and from what I can tell will continue to be even if the new bill passes.

The point that is screaming to be heard is the transition happened after the crime.

This is not 100% about a trans person being placed in the right prison, the problem is the perceived ease at which a criminal who attacked 2 women was placed into a female prison until the media got hold of the story!

This person has created the scenario a lot of anti trans have been predicting would happen. Supporting this personis not supporting trans or women"
wasn't she segregated?

But I would agree that there should be a different approach for decoding where that segregation is.

Eg gender they were identifying at the time of the crime.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all"

Caitlyn Jenner hasn't sexually assaulted anyone as far as we're all aware, regardless of how long she's declared that she's been a woman, the person in the said case has, or is that a fantasy too? This individual is playing the system, it doesn't take much working out, anyone can see that its a change of gender for convenience, as he/she knows what waits for him/her in the prison?

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all

Caitlyn Jenner hasn't sexually assaulted anyone as far as we're all aware, regardless of how long she's declared that she's been a woman, the person in the said case has, or is that a fantasy too? This individual is playing the system, it doesn't take much working out, anyone can see that its a change of gender for convenience, as he/she knows what waits for him/her in the prison?"

No, she never sexually assaulted anyone but she's done nothing for stereotype surrounding women drivers

And how could you suggest someone would falsely claim to be a different gender? That's transphobic that is, the sort of thing they're fighting for in Scotland right now.

Shame on you

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND

Keith Brown, the SNPs Justice Secretary has said

If someone presents as a trans person then we accept that at face value

Regardless of their crimes, denying someone their ability to identify as their true selves is cruel isn't it

Both Tiffany Scott and Isla Bryson are women and should be held with the same gender. Because Trans women ARE women, right

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham


"Keith Brown, the SNPs Justice Secretary has said

If someone presents as a trans person then we accept that at face value

Regardless of their crimes, denying someone their ability to identify as their true selves is cruel isn't it

Both Tiffany Scott and Isla Bryson are women and should be held with the same gender. Because Trans women ARE women, right "

I am just reading what the Scottish Prison Minister said ( front page of the BBC news site) and he actually said:

"It will always be the case, has always been the case, similar in relation to a gender recognition certificate, that these things are not determinative of where somebody is placed,

You cannot insist on that right if you're a transgender woman or man, to be placed in the estate where you want to be placed.

It will only happen as a result of a multi-party assessment, a rigorous risk assessment that goes on and that is what determines where people are placed."

Not sure where you are quoting the minister from but you would appear to be misconstruing what has been said to imply that prisoners can determine where they are placed.

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By *astandFeisty OP   Couple
over a year ago

Bournemouth


"Keith Brown, the SNPs Justice Secretary has said

If someone presents as a trans person then we accept that at face value

Regardless of their crimes, denying someone their ability to identify as their true selves is cruel isn't it

Both Tiffany Scott and Isla Bryson are women and should be held with the same gender. Because Trans women ARE women, right

I am just reading what the Scottish Prison Minister said ( front page of the BBC news site) and he actually said:

"It will always be the case, has always been the case, similar in relation to a gender recognition certificate, that these things are not determinative of where somebody is placed,

You cannot insist on that right if you're a transgender woman or man, to be placed in the estate where you want to be placed.

It will only happen as a result of a multi-party assessment, a rigorous risk assessment that goes on and that is what determines where people are placed."

Not sure where you are quoting the minister from but you would appear to be misconstruing what has been said to imply that prisoners can determine where they are placed. "

This is a quote from the Telegraph, fiesy link when I copied and pasted that quote.

"Challenged whether Isla Bryson and Tiffany Scott were trans women or predatory males, Keith Brown said: "If somebody presents as a trans person, then we accept that at face value."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Keith Brown, the SNPs Justice Secretary has said

If someone presents as a trans person then we accept that at face value

Regardless of their crimes, denying someone their ability to identify as their true selves is cruel isn't it

Both Tiffany Scott and Isla Bryson are women and should be held with the same gender. Because Trans women ARE women, right

I am just reading what the Scottish Prison Minister said ( front page of the BBC news site) and he actually said:

"It will always be the case, has always been the case, similar in relation to a gender recognition certificate, that these things are not determinative of where somebody is placed,

You cannot insist on that right if you're a transgender woman or man, to be placed in the estate where you want to be placed.

It will only happen as a result of a multi-party assessment, a rigorous risk assessment that goes on and that is what determines where people are placed."

Not sure where you are quoting the minister from but you would appear to be misconstruing what has been said to imply that prisoners can determine where they are placed.

This is a quote from the Telegraph, fiesy link when I copied and pasted that quote.

"Challenged whether Isla Bryson and Tiffany Scott were trans women or predatory males, Keith Brown said: "If somebody presents as a trans person, then we accept that at face value.""
I guess it's accepted on face value, but isn't determinative of the result. That's a balanced approach.

So questions are:

Were they putting anyone at risk when in segregation for assessment?

Was the right outcome achieved ?

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND


"Keith Brown, the SNPs Justice Secretary has said

If someone presents as a trans person then we accept that at face value

Regardless of their crimes, denying someone their ability to identify as their true selves is cruel isn't it

Both Tiffany Scott and Isla Bryson are women and should be held with the same gender. Because Trans women ARE women, right

I am just reading what the Scottish Prison Minister said ( front page of the BBC news site) and he actually said:

"It will always be the case, has always been the case, similar in relation to a gender recognition certificate, that these things are not determinative of where somebody is placed,

You cannot insist on that right if you're a transgender woman or man, to be placed in the estate where you want to be placed.

It will only happen as a result of a multi-party assessment, a rigorous risk assessment that goes on and that is what determines where people are placed."

Not sure where you are quoting the minister from but you would appear to be misconstruing what has been said to imply that prisoners can determine where they are placed.

This is a quote from the Telegraph, fiesy link when I copied and pasted that quote.

"Challenged whether Isla Bryson and Tiffany Scott were trans women or predatory males, Keith Brown said: "If somebody presents as a trans person, then we accept that at face value."I guess it's accepted on face value, but isn't determinative of the result. That's a balanced approach.

So questions are:

Were they putting anyone at risk when in segregation for assessment?

Was the right outcome achieved ?

"

The issue is this

You either house then with women, as that's how they identify (as a "biological" women imprisoned for sex offences would be)

Or you imprison them with men / in a 'trans' prison (which doesn't exist) and deny that they are, in fact, women

And that, as we are being educated, it transphobic, isn't it

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma


"Keith Brown, the SNPs Justice Secretary has said

If someone presents as a trans person then we accept that at face value

Regardless of their crimes, denying someone their ability to identify as their true selves is cruel isn't it

Both Tiffany Scott and Isla Bryson are women and should be held with the same gender. Because Trans women ARE women, right

I am just reading what the Scottish Prison Minister said ( front page of the BBC news site) and he actually said:

"It will always be the case, has always been the case, similar in relation to a gender recognition certificate, that these things are not determinative of where somebody is placed,

You cannot insist on that right if you're a transgender woman or man, to be placed in the estate where you want to be placed.

It will only happen as a result of a multi-party assessment, a rigorous risk assessment that goes on and that is what determines where people are placed."

Not sure where you are quoting the minister from but you would appear to be misconstruing what has been said to imply that prisoners can determine where they are placed.

This is a quote from the Telegraph, fiesy link when I copied and pasted that quote.

"Challenged whether Isla Bryson and Tiffany Scott were trans women or predatory males, Keith Brown said: "If somebody presents as a trans person, then we accept that at face value."I guess it's accepted on face value, but isn't determinative of the result. That's a balanced approach.

So questions are:

Were they putting anyone at risk when in segregation for assessment?

Was the right outcome achieved ?

The issue is this

You either house then with women, as that's how they identify (as a "biological" women imprisoned for sex offences would be)

Or you imprison them with men / in a 'trans' prison (which doesn't exist) and deny that they are, in fact, women

And that, as we are being educated, it transphobic, isn't it"

No it’s not and you know very well that the issue here is Isla Bryson used trans to avoid male prison after he r***d 2women.

I think you are purposefully using this thread to stoke the fire and are hoping to get an anti trans rant argument. Using ‘and that’s as we are being educated’ is your fine line….

You have failed to get the reaction, if I’m correct, and that is a credit to those using the forum.

If I’m incorrect, I apologise but do question your judgement

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Keith Brown, the SNPs Justice Secretary has said

If someone presents as a trans person then we accept that at face value

Regardless of their crimes, denying someone their ability to identify as their true selves is cruel isn't it

Both Tiffany Scott and Isla Bryson are women and should be held with the same gender. Because Trans women ARE women, right

I am just reading what the Scottish Prison Minister said ( front page of the BBC news site) and he actually said:

"It will always be the case, has always been the case, similar in relation to a gender recognition certificate, that these things are not determinative of where somebody is placed,

You cannot insist on that right if you're a transgender woman or man, to be placed in the estate where you want to be placed.

It will only happen as a result of a multi-party assessment, a rigorous risk assessment that goes on and that is what determines where people are placed."

Not sure where you are quoting the minister from but you would appear to be misconstruing what has been said to imply that prisoners can determine where they are placed.

This is a quote from the Telegraph, fiesy link when I copied and pasted that quote.

"Challenged whether Isla Bryson and Tiffany Scott were trans women or predatory males, Keith Brown said: "If somebody presents as a trans person, then we accept that at face value."I guess it's accepted on face value, but isn't determinative of the result. That's a balanced approach.

So questions are:

Were they putting anyone at risk when in segregation for assessment?

Was the right outcome achieved ?

The issue is this

You either house then with women, as that's how they identify (as a "biological" women imprisoned for sex offences would be)

Or you imprison them with men / in a 'trans' prison (which doesn't exist) and deny that they are, in fact, women

And that, as we are being educated, it transphobic, isn't it"
the assumption is whether someone has to be imprisoned with their gender.

On the while it makes sense, but we should consider ether it is a right, or a sensible guide for most. I guess one question to help answer this is why do we segregate by gender go start with.

Maybe we need to reimagine prisons.

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND


"Keith Brown, the SNPs Justice Secretary has said

If someone presents as a trans person then we accept that at face value

Regardless of their crimes, denying someone their ability to identify as their true selves is cruel isn't it

Both Tiffany Scott and Isla Bryson are women and should be held with the same gender. Because Trans women ARE women, right

I am just reading what the Scottish Prison Minister said ( front page of the BBC news site) and he actually said:

"It will always be the case, has always been the case, similar in relation to a gender recognition certificate, that these things are not determinative of where somebody is placed,

You cannot insist on that right if you're a transgender woman or man, to be placed in the estate where you want to be placed.

It will only happen as a result of a multi-party assessment, a rigorous risk assessment that goes on and that is what determines where people are placed."

Not sure where you are quoting the minister from but you would appear to be misconstruing what has been said to imply that prisoners can determine where they are placed.

This is a quote from the Telegraph, fiesy link when I copied and pasted that quote.

"Challenged whether Isla Bryson and Tiffany Scott were trans women or predatory males, Keith Brown said: "If somebody presents as a trans person, then we accept that at face value."I guess it's accepted on face value, but isn't determinative of the result. That's a balanced approach.

So questions are:

Were they putting anyone at risk when in segregation for assessment?

Was the right outcome achieved ?

The issue is this

You either house then with women, as that's how they identify (as a "biological" women imprisoned for sex offences would be)

Or you imprison them with men / in a 'trans' prison (which doesn't exist) and deny that they are, in fact, women

And that, as we are being educated, it transphobic, isn't it

No it’s not and you know very well that the issue here is Isla Bryson used trans to avoid male prison after he r***d 2women.

I think you are purposefully using this thread to stoke the fire and are hoping to get an anti trans rant argument. Using ‘and that’s as we are being educated’ is your fine line….

You have failed to get the reaction, if I’m correct, and that is a credit to those using the forum.

If I’m incorrect, I apologise but do question your judgement "

That's a lot of waffle to avoid answering the question

Either you must accept at face value someone's gender identity, or you don't. And if you don't you must be able to quantify how you came to that decision so you can apply it justifiably in the future

If you do accept it at face value (as the snp justice minister has said) then where so you imprison such an individual

A (born) woman convicted of sexual assault would be imprisoned with women, do IF transwomen ARE women, then surely you must imprison them with OTHER women

And I say educated because this argument, as evidenced by it's clear as mud nature, is a relatively new issue and as we are being educated individuals who identify with women ARE women (whereas if I said to you 10 years ago that I'm a woman just because I say I am you'd laugh in my face)

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND

It's not a 'credit' to anyone on this forum that they won't come and debate

Not at all

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND


"Keith Brown, the SNPs Justice Secretary has said

If someone presents as a trans person then we accept that at face value

Regardless of their crimes, denying someone their ability to identify as their true selves is cruel isn't it

Both Tiffany Scott and Isla Bryson are women and should be held with the same gender. Because Trans women ARE women, right

I am just reading what the Scottish Prison Minister said ( front page of the BBC news site) and he actually said:

"It will always be the case, has always been the case, similar in relation to a gender recognition certificate, that these things are not determinative of where somebody is placed,

You cannot insist on that right if you're a transgender woman or man, to be placed in the estate where you want to be placed.

It will only happen as a result of a multi-party assessment, a rigorous risk assessment that goes on and that is what determines where people are placed."

Not sure where you are quoting the minister from but you would appear to be misconstruing what has been said to imply that prisoners can determine where they are placed.

This is a quote from the Telegraph, fiesy link when I copied and pasted that quote.

"Challenged whether Isla Bryson and Tiffany Scott were trans women or predatory males, Keith Brown said: "If somebody presents as a trans person, then we accept that at face value."I guess it's accepted on face value, but isn't determinative of the result. That's a balanced approach.

So questions are:

Were they putting anyone at risk when in segregation for assessment?

Was the right outcome achieved ?

The issue is this

You either house then with women, as that's how they identify (as a "biological" women imprisoned for sex offences would be)

Or you imprison them with men / in a 'trans' prison (which doesn't exist) and deny that they are, in fact, women

And that, as we are being educated, it transphobic, isn't itthe assumption is whether someone has to be imprisoned with their gender.

On the while it makes sense, but we should consider ether it is a right, or a sensible guide for most. I guess one question to help answer this is why do we segregate by gender go start with.

Maybe we need to reimagine prisons. "

If you want to dismiss gender as a mean to segregate you could widen the idea to other facets if life

Such as sports

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"Because Trans women ARE women, right "

That rather depends on what each person's personal definition of 'woman' is.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Keith Brown, the SNPs Justice Secretary has said

If someone presents as a trans person then we accept that at face value

Regardless of their crimes, denying someone their ability to identify as their true selves is cruel isn't it

Both Tiffany Scott and Isla Bryson are women and should be held with the same gender. Because Trans women ARE women, right

I am just reading what the Scottish Prison Minister said ( front page of the BBC news site) and he actually said:

"It will always be the case, has always been the case, similar in relation to a gender recognition certificate, that these things are not determinative of where somebody is placed,

You cannot insist on that right if you're a transgender woman or man, to be placed in the estate where you want to be placed.

It will only happen as a result of a multi-party assessment, a rigorous risk assessment that goes on and that is what determines where people are placed."

Not sure where you are quoting the minister from but you would appear to be misconstruing what has been said to imply that prisoners can determine where they are placed.

This is a quote from the Telegraph, fiesy link when I copied and pasted that quote.

"Challenged whether Isla Bryson and Tiffany Scott were trans women or predatory males, Keith Brown said: "If somebody presents as a trans person, then we accept that at face value."I guess it's accepted on face value, but isn't determinative of the result. That's a balanced approach.

So questions are:

Were they putting anyone at risk when in segregation for assessment?

Was the right outcome achieved ?

The issue is this

You either house then with women, as that's how they identify (as a "biological" women imprisoned for sex offences would be)

Or you imprison them with men / in a 'trans' prison (which doesn't exist) and deny that they are, in fact, women

And that, as we are being educated, it transphobic, isn't itthe assumption is whether someone has to be imprisoned with their gender.

On the while it makes sense, but we should consider ether it is a right, or a sensible guide for most. I guess one question to help answer this is why do we segregate by gender go start with.

Maybe we need to reimagine prisons.

If you want to dismiss gender as a mean to segregate you could widen the idea to other facets if life

Such as sports "
while sport isn't prison you could. And indeed they are with t count and other approaches. And that makes sense imo as part of the reason for having women's sport is to create fairer competition.

Maybe we could have sports classification that is gender neutral but based on height, or weight, or testosterone levels.

Fact is, we split society to date based on genitals because, if you go back a few years, genitals was all you had to measure.

And indeed splitting by gender / sex is fairly societal. Which probably makes a bit of a mockery of ppl who want to use sex not gender as a marker, because sex is "science" and gender is "societal norms"

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By *igNick1381Man
over a year ago

BRIDGEND


"Because Trans women ARE women, right

That rather depends on what each person's personal definition of 'woman' is."

How can we make a decision when we can't even decide on a definition of a term

Absolute nightmare really

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

I have a close friend that has transitioned fully.

I can tell you quite categorically, that many women do not see her as a woman. They only see her as a man that's transitioned into a woman, and is most definitely not "one of them" .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Personally.

Any rights the offender had where lost the moment HE commited the attack.

He wants to be a woman well give a knife to the woman he rxxxd I'm sure she willingly free him from having a cock and balls.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that it even got this far, there's a special place in hell for assholes like him.

Hopefully this will finish this thread off, this statement is the most sensible yet on this farcical case of another weasel trying to work the judicial system? Its blindingly obvious what this scumbag is trying to do, and his victims must be still going through hell after what he did to them, and now having to endure this too?

What a terrible thing to say. No one wants to change gender for no reason, we have reliably been told this repeatedly. It's a fantasy, made up by right wing bigots, to suggest that someone claiming they are not the gender they were assigned at birth to be 'faking it'. How could you say such an awful thing

Caitlyn Jenner has stated herself that as far as she is concerned, she's ALWAYS been a woman. I'm sure this individual is the same and shame on you for suggesting SHE is not a woman

Trans women ARE women after all

Caitlyn Jenner hasn't sexually assaulted anyone as far as we're all aware, regardless of how long she's declared that she's been a woman, the person in the said case has, or is that a fantasy too? This individual is playing the system, it doesn't take much working out, anyone can see that its a change of gender for convenience, as he/she knows what waits for him/her in the prison?

No, she never sexually assaulted anyone but she's done nothing for stereotype surrounding women drivers

And how could you suggest someone would falsely claim to be a different gender? That's transphobic that is, the sort of thing they're fighting for in Scotland right now.

Shame on you"

Its not transphobic at all, where are you coming from with that one? It is about this individual committing a serious assault, yes with his penis when he was of male gender, and because he was caught, he then decides that he's no longer a man, he then proclaims that he's a woman, don't you think that its just a slight coincidence or what? He/she whatever, is playing the system in order to go to an all female prison, a vile individual that committed a serious crime? You're obviously blind to what stunts are being pulled here, he was a man when he r**** those women, he wasn't bothered about gender then was he, so should serve time in a male prison for the crime he committed at the time as a MAN!

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By *alamity clungeWoman
over a year ago

Clungetown

I think we all need to calm down a bit here and think about the poor woman who committed these crimes.

If she wasn't living in such a deeply misogynistic, transphobic society, facing daily challenges to be accepted as her true self then I'm sure she wouldn't have been driven to this.

The kindest thing is of course to have her in a woman's prison but in segregation as she would likely be the target of abuse.

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma


"I think we all need to calm down a bit here and think about the poor woman who committed these crimes.

If she wasn't living in such a deeply misogynistic, transphobic society, facing daily challenges to be accepted as her true self then I'm sure she wouldn't have been driven to this.

The kindest thing is of course to have her in a woman's prison but in segregation as she would likely be the target of abuse."

Oh my god, I'm lost for words, where is your head at?

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham


"I think we all need to calm down a bit here and think about the poor woman who committed these crimes.

If she wasn't living in such a deeply misogynistic, transphobic society, facing daily challenges to be accepted as her true self then I'm sure she wouldn't have been driven to this.

The kindest thing is of course to have her in a woman's prison but in segregation as she would likely be the target of abuse."

Forgive me if I think of the poor victims instead!

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By *astandFeisty OP   Couple
over a year ago

Bournemouth


"I think we all need to calm down a bit here and think about the poor woman who committed these crimes.

If she wasn't living in such a deeply misogynistic, transphobic society, facing daily challenges to be accepted as her true self then I'm sure she wouldn't have been driven to this.

The kindest thing is of course to have her in a woman's prison but in segregation as she would likely be the target of abuse."

This debate definitely interests me but thats a step too far

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think we all need to calm down a bit here and think about the poor woman who committed these crimes.

If she wasn't living in such a deeply misogynistic, transphobic society, facing daily challenges to be accepted as her true self then I'm sure she wouldn't have been driven to this.

The kindest thing is of course to have her in a woman's prison but in segregation as she would likely be the target of abuse."

Completely disagree with what you've said here, and I'm trans myself! You absolutely cannot blame assaulting someone on Transphobia or misogyny, I experience Transphobia on a daily basis and still haven't assaulted anyone. Ridiculous.

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By *alamity clungeWoman
over a year ago

Clungetown

Glad to see my previous statement has been called out as ridiculous. I certainly felt ridiculous posting it but was testing the water based in some of the utter pish I see when discussing this issue.

He should be in a male prison. And I refuse to use female pronouns for a beast who has attacked innocent women. I give zero fucks as to how he identifies. Hope he gets tore a new one in Barlinnie.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Glad to see my previous statement has been called out as ridiculous. I certainly felt ridiculous posting it but was testing the water based in some of the utter pish I see when discussing this issue.

He should be in a male prison. And I refuse to use female pronouns for a beast who has attacked innocent women. I give zero fucks as to how he identifies. Hope he gets tore a new one in Barlinnie."

Why not just say that in the first place then? Just seems like you're backtracking

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By *enny PR9TV/TS
over a year ago

Southport


"Glad to see my previous statement has been called out as ridiculous. I certainly felt ridiculous posting it but was testing the water based in some of the utter pish I see when discussing this issue.

He should be in a male prison. And I refuse to use female pronouns for a beast who has attacked innocent women. I give zero fucks as to how he identifies. Hope he gets tore a new one in Barlinnie.

Why not just say that in the first place then? Just seems like you're backtracking "

Put her in a male prison but paint the cell pink.

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By *alamity clungeWoman
over a year ago

Clungetown


"Glad to see my previous statement has been called out as ridiculous. I certainly felt ridiculous posting it but was testing the water based in some of the utter pish I see when discussing this issue.

He should be in a male prison. And I refuse to use female pronouns for a beast who has attacked innocent women. I give zero fucks as to how he identifies. Hope he gets tore a new one in Barlinnie.

Why not just say that in the first place then? Just seems like you're backtracking "

I can categorically assure you I'm not.

I don't think any transwoman, regardless of their crime should be held in a women's prison. The prison has to assure the safety of vulnerable male prisoners all the time. So they should be able to assure the safety of transwomen in the male estate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Glad to see my previous statement has been called out as ridiculous. I certainly felt ridiculous posting it but was testing the water based in some of the utter pish I see when discussing this issue.

He should be in a male prison. And I refuse to use female pronouns for a beast who has attacked innocent women. I give zero fucks as to how he identifies. Hope he gets tore a new one in Barlinnie.

Why not just say that in the first place then? Just seems like you're backtracking

I can categorically assure you I'm not.

I don't think any transwoman, regardless of their crime should be held in a women's prison. The prison has to assure the safety of vulnerable male prisoners all the time. So they should be able to assure the safety of transwomen in the male estate.

"

Ok if that's what you think about trans women, what about trans men who have had bottom surgery? Should they be put in a prison with women? They would have a penis. Genuinely interested.

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By *alamity clungeWoman
over a year ago

Clungetown


"Glad to see my previous statement has been called out as ridiculous. I certainly felt ridiculous posting it but was testing the water based in some of the utter pish I see when discussing this issue.

He should be in a male prison. And I refuse to use female pronouns for a beast who has attacked innocent women. I give zero fucks as to how he identifies. Hope he gets tore a new one in Barlinnie.

Why not just say that in the first place then? Just seems like you're backtracking

I can categorically assure you I'm not.

I don't think any transwoman, regardless of their crime should be held in a women's prison. The prison has to assure the safety of vulnerable male prisoners all the time. So they should be able to assure the safety of transwomen in the male estate.

Ok if that's what you think about trans women, what about trans men who have had bottom surgery? Should they be put in a prison with women? They would have a penis. Genuinely interested. "

Yes, I think they should be kept within the female estate.

As biological females they do not have the same offending patterns or tendency for violent behaviour as biological males.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Glad to see my previous statement has been called out as ridiculous. I certainly felt ridiculous posting it but was testing the water based in some of the utter pish I see when discussing this issue.

He should be in a male prison. And I refuse to use female pronouns for a beast who has attacked innocent women. I give zero fucks as to how he identifies. Hope he gets tore a new one in Barlinnie.

Why not just say that in the first place then? Just seems like you're backtracking

I can categorically assure you I'm not.

I don't think any transwoman, regardless of their crime should be held in a women's prison. The prison has to assure the safety of vulnerable male prisoners all the time. So they should be able to assure the safety of transwomen in the male estate.

Ok if that's what you think about trans women, what about trans men who have had bottom surgery? Should they be put in a prison with women? They would have a penis. Genuinely interested.

Yes, I think they should be kept within the female estate.

As biological females they do not have the same offending patterns or tendency for violent behaviour as biological males."

Bit of a double standard that? You want someone who looks, sounds and has the body and hormones of a man in a women's prison? Based off the research I have read (provided by an actual women's aid charity I might add!) Trans people are more at risk of abuse than cis women or cis men. From personal experience, I've never been abused by a trans person, but I have been abused by cis women. Make of that what you will.

I kind of think it should be based on the offence committed and and how far along someone is in their transition, as to where they are incarcerated but I don't know an awful lot about the legal system involved so I don't have all the answers. If someone is just claiming to be trans to try and "get access" to vulnerable women, then surely they're not trans in the first place?

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By *alamity clungeWoman
over a year ago

Clungetown

In my opinion, they rarely ever convincingly look or sound like actual men. I've seen plenty pics on Instagram of trans men who look bloody gorgeous, but then see a video of them walking around or talking and you can almost always tell. Granted there will be exceptions. Also, in my (albeit limited) interactions with transmen, they simply don't give off the same "vibe" (for want of a better word) as biological men, therefore women generally don't feel threatened. Buck Angel has spoke at length about this. He reckons it's because they've actually lived as biological women that they have an innate understanding of what it means to navigate the world as a woman. I'm also actually thinking about their physical safety when I say they should be housed with women. In the vast majority of cases they will be significantly weaker than your average male prisoner.

I could probably cite just as many sources back to you which say the exact opposite. In Scotland, many of the so called women's charities receive funding directly from the Scottish Government and are actively encouraged to be trans inclusive, so it's in their interest to push that narrative. I don't have anything against trans inclusive women's shelters for example. If some women would be comfortable sharing spaces with biological men then that's their choice. There should, however, be female only women's shelters. Surely that's the very definition of inclusive if there's something for everyone?

That's your personal experience so I don't know what I'm supposed to make of that. It's wrong of course to abuse anyone. I've been threatened with r@pe and decapitation for expressing these views. What can I say. There are some fucking arseholes out there.

With regards to your last point, that is the whole argument in a nutshell. How do we know if this Isla prick is a transwoman or a con artist?

He's either genuinely trans and a violent r@pist.

Or a r@pist who almost gamed the system by pretending to be trans.

Either way, his case clearly demonstrates that men who claim to be women do not belong in women's prisons.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Glad to see my previous statement has been called out as ridiculous. I certainly felt ridiculous posting it but was testing the water based in some of the utter pish I see when discussing this issue.

He should be in a male prison. And I refuse to use female pronouns for a beast who has attacked innocent women. I give zero fucks as to how he identifies. Hope he gets tore a new one in Barlinnie.

Why not just say that in the first place then? Just seems like you're backtracking

I can categorically assure you I'm not.

I don't think any transwoman, regardless of their crime should be held in a women's prison. The prison has to assure the safety of vulnerable male prisoners all the time. So they should be able to assure the safety of transwomen in the male estate.

Ok if that's what you think about trans women, what about trans men who have had bottom surgery? Should they be put in a prison with women? They would have a penis. Genuinely interested.

Yes, I think they should be kept within the female estate.

As biological females they do not have the same offending patterns or tendency for violent behaviour as biological males."
this for me is the paradox I described above.

You are worried about the risk to other female inmates (who by definition are criminals, some of whom may have committed crimes that are "deserving of a new asshole".

But ignore the risk of the trans criminal.

Your approach would see a trans women in a male prison even if they only committed tax fraud. The system will keep them safe you say. But the system wouldn't keep the females inmate's safe if they went into a women's prison.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Buck Angel is not the gold standard to be listening to about trans men, let me just say that now. He is extremely problematic in a lot of his views. Your experience of trans men means nothing in comparison to the lived experience of a trans man, and your opinion on whether they "pass" or their "vibe" is also completely irrelevant. We are not women, so stop making out like we are. Transphobes want to bleat on about Testosterone levels and penises yet would rather put someone with both in a female prison? Make it make sense.

If that is the case for Isla, then there obviously needs to be a lot more investigation into how to stop people from exploiting the process without impacting the lives of people who are genuinely trans or non binary. I have no idea what the solution is.

No one, trans or cis, should be giving anyone death threats over trans/anti trans debates. It's stupid and doesn't get anyone anywhere. It takes away from the actual issues at hand.

Also, did you know that cis women that are at risk of being a danger to other women can and are housed in male prisons? IMO if someone is a danger to others they shouldn't be in either male or female gen pop anywazy.

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By *alamity clungeWoman
over a year ago

Clungetown


"Buck Angel is not the gold standard to be listening to about trans men, let me just say that now. He is extremely problematic in a lot of his views. Your experience of trans men means nothing in comparison to the lived experience of a trans man, and your opinion on whether they "pass" or their "vibe" is also completely irrelevant. We are not women, so stop making out like we are. Transphobes want to bleat on about Testosterone levels and penises yet would rather put someone with both in a female prison? Make it make sense.

If that is the case for Isla, then there obviously needs to be a lot more investigation into how to stop people from exploiting the process without impacting the lives of people who are genuinely trans or non binary. I have no idea what the solution is.

No one, trans or cis, should be giving anyone death threats over trans/anti trans debates. It's stupid and doesn't get anyone anywhere. It takes away from the actual issues at hand.

Also, did you know that cis women that are at risk of being a danger to other women can and are housed in male prisons? IMO if someone is a danger to others they shouldn't be in either male or female gen pop anywazy."

I'm bowing out when you start with the transphobe nonsense because I disagree with you.

Artificially altering your hormone profile and transplanting a piece of flesh from your arm to your pubic area to create a faux penis does not mean you pose the same threat as a man.

We'll never agree. But I wish you well

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Buck Angel is not the gold standard to be listening to about trans men, let me just say that now. He is extremely problematic in a lot of his views. Your experience of trans men means nothing in comparison to the lived experience of a trans man, and your opinion on whether they "pass" or their "vibe" is also completely irrelevant. We are not women, so stop making out like we are. Transphobes want to bleat on about Testosterone levels and penises yet would rather put someone with both in a female prison? Make it make sense.

If that is the case for Isla, then there obviously needs to be a lot more investigation into how to stop people from exploiting the process without impacting the lives of people who are genuinely trans or non binary. I have no idea what the solution is.

No one, trans or cis, should be giving anyone death threats over trans/anti trans debates. It's stupid and doesn't get anyone anywhere. It takes away from the actual issues at hand.

Also, did you know that cis women that are at risk of being a danger to other women can and are housed in male prisons? IMO if someone is a danger to others they shouldn't be in either male or female gen pop anywazy.

I'm bowing out when you start with the transphobe nonsense because I disagree with you.

Artificially altering your hormone profile and transplanting a piece of flesh from your arm to your pubic area to create a faux penis does not mean you pose the same threat as a man.

We'll never agree. But I wish you well "

We'll never agree on this topic you're right, and I'm ok with that. Same to you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I know Gay bloke he's 70's+

Very perverted man, hes been banned from very dangerous (Even Europe) prisons. Got very illicit network for similar annoying behaviour.

One spell he was going back - 90's into HMP's HMO's etc having sexual intercourse with staff Inc as he found it

All ages - what is the prison population or his desire

YEWTREE occurance was no phenomenon

DURING 1980/90s he'd been done exactly same thing changed sex & back, multiples,.

If they are not proven connected I'd be very surprised.

Very boring - they wont house him HMP/HMOs because he's clinical and that's why he pushed the system

He loved doing it & tiny ones he destroyed

Its no shame to a man like that

Hes an absolute tosser

This is just one of his little boyfriends he'd found at the Ice Cream booths traveling the country

Developments in media or me are seen shrewd in all sexes. I'm not afraid to see MI5 (even if they are here) arrive in my town because hes got new CAB/indie boyfriend or money monk

Did anybody actually speak out ??

Very very very boring

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By *ools and the brainCouple
over a year ago

couple, us we him her.


"I know Gay bloke he's 70's+

Very perverted man, hes been banned from very dangerous (Even Europe) prisons. Got very illicit network for similar annoying behaviour.

One spell he was going back - 90's into HMP's HMO's etc having sexual intercourse with staff Inc as he found it

All ages - what is the prison population or his desire

YEWTREE occurance was no phenomenon

DURING 1980/90s he'd been done exactly same thing changed sex & back, multiples,.

If they are not proven connected I'd be very surprised.

Very boring - they wont house him HMP/HMOs because he's clinical and that's why he pushed the system

He loved doing it & tiny ones he destroyed

Its no shame to a man like that

Hes an absolute tosser

This is just one of his little boyfriends he'd found at the Ice Cream booths traveling the country

Developments in media or me are seen shrewd in all sexes. I'm not afraid to see MI5 (even if they are here) arrive in my town because hes got new CAB/indie boyfriend or money monk

Did anybody actually speak out ??

Very very very boring "

Struggled to understand a word about that.

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By *erts-LadyTV/TS
over a year ago

Harlow

Presumably on this basis all the women prisoners lost their "rights" when they committed whatever offence got them incarcerated....of course not. The prison has a duty of care to their safety. This cuts both ways. They also have a duty of care to the trans woman, re her safety in a male prison. Clearly neither is suitable. The answer they will eventually arrive at is to house trans inmates in a trans prison!

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham


"Presumably on this basis all the women prisoners lost their "rights" when they committed whatever offence got them incarcerated....of course not. The prison has a duty of care to their safety. This cuts both ways. They also have a duty of care to the trans woman, re her safety in a male prison. Clearly neither is suitable. The answer they will eventually arrive at is to house trans inmates in a trans prison!"

it depends on you trans

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