FabSwingers.com forum: British

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

What defines your patriotism?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *astandFeistyCouple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

Patriotism is a fallacy

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

History

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

Propaganda, mostly

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

It's used as a tool for control.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's used as a tool for control.

"
and your NHS isn't? Its a form of control is it not ? You are just relabeling.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's used as a tool for control.

and your NHS isn't? Its a form of control is it not ? You are just relabeling."
you can Google the most trusted institutions between the UK and US. You would be shocked.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's used as a tool for control.

and your NHS isn't? Its a form of control is it not ? You are just relabeling. you can Google the most trusted institutions between the UK and US. You would be shocked."
its a strange phenomenon.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

"What defines your patriotism? "

Nothing.

I'm just a collections of atoms occupying a particular point in space & time.

Patriotism is a concept that has no bearing or affect on my atoms.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

"It's used as a tool for control.

and your NHS isn't? Its a form of control is it not ? You are just relabeling."

NHS is the health service.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I'm not patriotic. (I'm not British either)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"It's used as a tool for control."

"and your NHS isn't? Its a form of control is it not ?"

No, it isn't.

Please explain how you think the NHS is being used to control us.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *estivalMan
over a year ago

borehamwood

Am english not british so cant help you on that question

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"It's used as a tool for control.

and your NHS isn't? Its a form of control is it not ? You are just relabeling."

Blu you often have anti-NHS posts in these threads. Can you explain why you think the NHS is such a bad idea? What is wrong with the concept of universal healthcare free at the point of need? Why is funding that from taxation a bad idea?

The ONLY reasons it is currently in crisis is because it has been fragmented and fleeced by the private sector draining away money/resource from actually providing medical care.

Also you constantly advocate the USA approach to healthcare and insurance. Can you explain if you are covered for any pre-existing or hereditary conditions by this insurance? Also curious if the monthly premiums are lower or higher than we pay through our taxes and NI (proportionately)?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's used as a tool for control.

and your NHS isn't? Its a form of control is it not ? You are just relabeling.

The ONLY reasons it is currently in crisis is because it has been fragmented and fleeced by the private sector draining away money/resource from actually providing medical care.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"It's used as a tool for control.

and your NHS isn't? Its a form of control is it not ? You are just relabeling.

The ONLY reasons it is currently in crisis is because it has been fragmented and fleeced by the private sector draining away money/resource from actually providing medical care.

Sorry what is ACA? When you say covered, does that mean for everything? Primary care? Secondary/follow on care? Palliative care? Drugs/therapy for as long as required (possibly rest of life)? Is that also for hereditary conditions?

Are you penalised for conditions related to lifestyle, eg lung cancer from being a smoker?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"It's used as a tool for control.

and your NHS isn't? Its a form of control is it not ? You are just relabeling.

The ONLY reasons it is currently in crisis is because it has been fragmented and fleeced by the private sector draining away money/resource from actually providing medical care.

Are you penalised for conditions related to lifestyle, eg lung cancer from being a smoker? "

Affordable care act, or Obamacare.

It means you can be insured, not you don't have to pay.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the-aca/pre-existing-conditions/index.html home it helps

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ustintime69Man
over a year ago

Bristol

So on a slight diversion….

Patriotism is not relevant to the NHS as for most people our love of the NHS is about loyalty to a system that looks after the majority of us from the cradle to the grave for good or bad

In this land we do not have a written constitution or an oath of allegiance and patriotism is therefore a much more fluid thing whereby most of us only encounter it when singing the national anthem at school, sporting events or in church and so it defines us less than it does for you in the States. I also have always wondered whether as a young and enormous country you actually need the oath and the flag and the patriotism to bind you together as I can see that many states like say Texas, California, New York, etc could see a better future for themselves outside of the union?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the-aca/pre-existing-conditions/index.html home it helps

Yes it helps but not exhaustive. Certainly no mention that I saw regarding lifestyle related conditions or hereditary susceptibility? There are 10 categories of healthcare covered.

I did some digging too and like most insurance policies there is an initial excess or “deductible” so not remotely free at point of treatment!

“The amount you pay for covered health care services before your insurance plan starts to pay. With a $2,000 deductible, for example, you pay the first $2,000 of covered services yourself.

After you pay your deductible, you usually pay only a copayment or coinsurance for covered services. Your insurance company pays the rest.

Many plans pay for certain services, like a checkup or disease management programs, before you've met your deductible. Check your plan details.

All Marketplace health plans pay the full cost of certain preventive benefits even before you meet your deductible.

Some plans have separate deductibles for certain services, like prescription drugs.

Family plans often have both an individual deductible, which applies to each person, and a family deductible, which applies to all family members.

Generally, plans with lower monthly premiums have higher deductibles. Plans with higher monthly premiums usually have lower deductibles.”

So many questions...

What is the monthly premium for this insurance?

Assume a family policy is more than an individual?

Assume the income of the individual/family has no bearing on cost of the policy (unlike taxation)?

Does the cost of the policy increase if you make a claim?

If you develop a condition during the policy can you change provider (ie would they consider this pre-existing)?

BTW aren’t you a Republican supporter? Don’t they want to rescind the ACA?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

Back to the original question... We don't do patriotism here. If any politician in England starts harping on about patriotism, you can guarantee they are a scoundrel who is stealing the country's silverware. Eg. Our current government.

The only time the flag gets waved is when England is doing well in any international football event, and then it is the English George Cross flag, not the Union flag that represents the entire UK. Yes there are some very small number of people who will plaster their house exterior with Union flags - but this is generally an indication of ultra extreme racism beliefs and a hatred of anyone outside their own little cult circle, not of any patriotism to the concept of the United Kingdom.

In the UK, honest people do not perform patriotism.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *enny PR9TV/TS
over a year ago

Southport

Patriotism, a love so true

It's a feeling that runs deep within

A love for one's country, and all it stands for

A love that cannot be thinned

For me, it's the rolling hills and valleys

The vast and open skies

The forests and the rivers

That bring tears to my eyes

It's the history, rich and varied

The stories of our past

The struggles and the triumphs

That make our country last

But most of all, it's the people

The diversity that thrives

It's the unity, in spite of differences

That makes our country thrive

And among the things I hold dear

Is the NHS, a shining star

A beacon of hope and healing

Near and far

For in this institution

Lies the heart of our nation

Where care is given freely

To every generation

So this is what defines my patriotism

The land, the history, and the lives

Of all who call this place home

And the NHS, a symbol of pride.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ustintime69Man
over a year ago

Bristol

"Patriotism, a love so true

It's a feeling that runs deep within

A love for one's country, and all it stands for

A love that cannot be thinned

For me, it's the rolling hills and valleys

The vast and open skies

The forests and the rivers

That bring tears to my eyes

It's the history, rich and varied

The stories of our past

The struggles and the triumphs

That make our country last

But most of all, it's the people

The diversity that thrives

It's the unity, in spite of differences

That makes our country thrive

And among the things I hold dear

Is the NHS, a shining star

A beacon of hope and healing

Near and far

For in this institution

Lies the heart of our nation

Where care is given freely

To every generation

So this is what defines my patriotism

The land, the history, and the lives

Of all who call this place home

And the NHS, a symbol of pride."

Blimey….that’s a bit lyrical for fab

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *enny PR9TV/TS
over a year ago

Southport

"Patriotism, a love so true

It's a feeling that runs deep within

A love for one's country, and all it stands for

A love that cannot be thinned

For me, it's the rolling hills and valleys

The vast and open skies

The forests and the rivers

That bring tears to my eyes

It's the history, rich and varied

The stories of our past

The struggles and the triumphs

That make our country last

But most of all, it's the people

The diversity that thrives

It's the unity, in spite of differences

That makes our country thrive

And among the things I hold dear

Is the NHS, a shining star

A beacon of hope and healing

Near and far

For in this institution

Lies the heart of our nation

Where care is given freely

To every generation

So this is what defines my patriotism

The land, the history, and the lives

Of all who call this place home

And the NHS, a symbol of pride.

Blimey….that’s a bit lyrical for fab

From across the pond, we watch in shock,

As your healthcare system seems to mock,

The values that your nation holds dear,

Leaving so many in pain and fear.

How can it be that in the land of the free,

Access to care is a luxury,

That so many cannot afford,

Leaving them to suffer and be ignored?

We find it hard to understand,

Why your system is so out of hand,

Why you don't have universal care,

Like we do over here.

But despite our differences, we stand together,

In the hopes that your healthcare will be better,

For all those who call your nation home,

And that one day, you'll never have to roam,

In search of care that should be theirs,

But is out of reach due to soaring prices and red tape that ensnares.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ustintime69Man
over a year ago

Bristol

"Patriotism, a love so true

It's a feeling that runs deep within

A love for one's country, and all it stands for

A love that cannot be thinned

For me, it's the rolling hills and valleys

The vast and open skies

The forests and the rivers

That bring tears to my eyes

It's the history, rich and varied

The stories of our past

The struggles and the triumphs

That make our country last

But most of all, it's the people

The diversity that thrives

It's the unity, in spite of differences

That makes our country thrive

And among the things I hold dear

Is the NHS, a shining star

A beacon of hope and healing

Near and far

For in this institution

Lies the heart of our nation

Where care is given freely

To every generation

So this is what defines my patriotism

The land, the history, and the lives

Of all who call this place home

And the NHS, a symbol of pride.

Blimey….that’s a bit lyrical for fab

From across the pond, we watch in shock,

As your healthcare system seems to mock,

The values that your nation holds dear,

Leaving so many in pain and fear.

How can it be that in the land of the free,

Access to care is a luxury,

That so many cannot afford,

Leaving them to suffer and be ignored?

We find it hard to understand,

Why your system is so out of hand,

Why you don't have universal care,

Like we do over here.

But despite our differences, we stand together,

In the hopes that your healthcare will be better,

For all those who call your nation home,

And that one day, you'll never have to roam,

In search of care that should be theirs,

But is out of reach due to soaring prices and red tape that ensnares."

Blimey…a poet and we didn’t know it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *penbicoupleCouple
over a year ago

Northampton

"Am english not british so cant help you on that question "

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *penbicoupleCouple
over a year ago

Northampton

"Back to the original question... We don't do patriotism here. If any politician in England starts harping on about patriotism, you can guarantee they are a scoundrel who is stealing the country's silverware. Eg. Our current government."

I wish what you were saying was true. Did you not notice all of the extra union flags about when covid was at its worst? Or the way any time the government or media want to encourage communal obedience they make a veiled or not-so-veiled reference to WW2? Even the questionable Churchill is often praised as the greatest Brit of all time.

I am not patriotic at all, but I sadly think much of our nation is blindly so.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

"What defines your patriotism? "

The dictionary says patriotism is definited as "the feeling of loving your country more than any others and being proud of it".

So for many British people, this presumably means lots of different things.

I don't love my country more than any others. There are some things I'm proud of and some things I'm not.

So probably means I am 1/4 patriotic?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago

milton keynes

In the UK, honest people do not perform patriotism."

I assume the reason for the st George flag instead of the union flag when England are playing is that is the relevant flag. Bit like Scottish fans use the st Andrews flag and not the union flag. Personally I have never seen an indication that the union flag being shown equals ultra extreme racism.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

In the UK, honest people do not perform patriotism.

Actually it tends to be the George Cross flag of England that is associated with racist far right groups. In part that is also because of the link back to the Crusades.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Far right groups will always use their nations flag as their banner claiming that they are the patriots. They arn't, the real patriots are the everyday people who just get on with their lifes, pay their taxes and engage in society (whether you think your a patriot or not).

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Far right groups will always use their nations flag as their banner claiming that they are the patriots. They arn't, the real patriots are the everyday people who just get on with their lifes, pay their taxes and engage in society (whether you think your a patriot or not)."
That not true here.I see plenty of flags on peoples houses that they claim they are far left along with lgbtq pride flag and Ukrainian flag are they wrong in their patriotism?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"Far right groups will always use their nations flag as their banner claiming that they are the patriots. They arn't, the real patriots are the everyday people who just get on with their lifes, pay their taxes and engage in society (whether you think your a patriot or not). That not true here.I see plenty of flags on peoples houses that they claim they are far left along with lgbtq pride flag and Ukrainian flag are they wrong in their patriotism?"

Americans are a bit odd though. The land of the free my arse!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I think the American flag often has broader appeal than some others, less far right connotations.

Although as St George can be used by extreme groups here, the US has the Confederate flag. (Australians tend to use the southern cross. It's a constellation, it doesn't approve of racism

)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I am not patriotic at all, but I sadly think much of our nation is blindly so. "

I think there's a desire for something to cling to.

Around me, it was the rainbow used for the NHS. Under the circumstances I thought a fitting sign of solidarity.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I am not patriotic at all, but I sadly think much of our nation is blindly so.

I think there's a desire for something to cling to.

Around me, it was the rainbow used for the NHS. Under the circumstances I thought a fitting sign of solidarity."
its stange. Everyone here on the 4th of July becomes a flag waving patriot no matter the political affiliation on memorial day and veterans day. The flag is a middle ground symbol showing we are all Americans first.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

I am not patriotic at all, but I sadly think much of our nation is blindly so.

I think there's a desire for something to cling to.

Around me, it was the rainbow used for the NHS. Under the circumstances I thought a fitting sign of solidarity. its stange. Everyone here on the 4th of July becomes a flag waving patriot no matter the political affiliation on memorial day and veterans day. The flag is a middle ground symbol showing we are all Americans first."

Flag waving isn't exactly the same as patriotism.

Most people here who call themselves "patriotic" spend time attacking anyone who strives for Britain to be the best it can be. Which seems backwards to me, if you truly love your country and fellow citizens, you presumably would want the country to be the best it can be, and not just sit on your arse complaining about those that do.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"Most people here who call themselves "patriotic" spend time attacking anyone who strives for Britain to be the best it can be. Which seems backwards to me, if you truly love your country and fellow citizens, you presumably would want the country to be the best it can be, and not just sit on your arse complaining about those that do."

That very much depends on what you think is 'best' for your country. Some might think that a Labour government would be best, while others would disagree. Without knowing what they consider to be 'best', you can't know if they are just complaining, or are in fact acting to make their country the best it can be (in their eyes).

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

Sure, if doing nothing and slagging off anyone who speaks up about any of the problems in the country is what they think is best, no problem. All I'm saying is, those are usually the same people who label themselves "patriotic".

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Far right groups will always use their nations flag as their banner claiming that they are the patriots. They arn't, the real patriots are the everyday people who just get on with their lifes, pay their taxes and engage in society (whether you think your a patriot or not). That not true here.I see plenty of flags on peoples houses that they claim they are far left along with lgbtq pride flag and Ukrainian flag are they wrong in their patriotism?"

The point I was making was in regards to far right groups using their national flag. I wasnt making any point regarding the far left. People can choose to wave whatever flag they want.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I just clocked your profile and noticed that your in the USA. I dont know if your American or just living there but I think Americans and Brits (and other Europeans) define patriotism in different ways.

For example, we are less likely to wave a national flag with the exception being Northern ireland. Certainly very few people in the UK fly a flag at home.

But, I stick to my original post. Real patriotism is is engaging and working for the betterment of your society / country and thats true for whichever nationality you belong to. (What you believe is better for your country is a whole different question).

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

Hmmm if you put political parties aside for a moment and just focus on key points about what people need in order for a country to be something you are proud of then I wonder what that list would contain?

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. "
but the US population value individualism over anything you just mentioned. That's the difference.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. but the US population value individualism over anything you just mentioned. That's the difference. "

Can you define "individualism" in this context?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. but the US population value individualism over anything you just mentioned. That's the difference.

Can you define "individualism" in this context?"
we do not trust government to be the all empowering. There is a reason its one of the least trusted institutions. The status quo has always been its all about the individual and there is the problem.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. but the US population value individualism over anything you just mentioned. That's the difference.

Can you define "individualism" in this context? we do not trust government to be the all empowering. There is a reason its one of the least trusted institutions. The status quo has always been its all about the individual and there is the problem."

“Individualism” actually means every (wo)man for themselves. No need to concern yourselves with society as long as me and mine are ok. That is actually anti-collectivism and bu extension anti nation state ergo what is there to be patriotic about?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. but the US population value individualism over anything you just mentioned. That's the difference.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. but the US population value individualism over anything you just mentioned. That's the difference.

So what use is there for a nation state?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ustintime69Man
over a year ago

Bristol

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. "

Interesting list…. I think I would agree with every part of that as a list of basic requirements but I look around me and I don’t think most of those things are present in the form they should be in the UK today….

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. but the US population value individualism over anything you just mentioned. That's the difference.

So what use is there for a nation state?"
pass laws that doesn't infringe on state and federal constitutions.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

"
it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively."

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about!"
I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually."
if you think I was born into money you are far from that idea.I chased the "American " dream through blood sweat and tears. Being the individual that I am. Nothing came easy.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. but the US population value individualism over anything you just mentioned. That's the difference.

Exactly the same here. Very few people trust the government. That's a given.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually."

I think for many people, that's the terrifying thing about the US. If something bad happens or you get an unlucky break, you're fucked because there is very little in the way of social care. You can still be an individual in every other country in the world, just some will look after people who need some help.

From the outside looking in, it looks like a lack of empathy for your fellow americans. And we have plenty like this here too, just maybe not as many.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. but the US population value individualism over anything you just mentioned. That's the difference.

Exactly the same here. Very few people trust the government. That's a given. "
The only thin I care about is my family and friends not someone 3000 miles away. If I can secure my family well being for the future so be it. Something happen to us. They still have one of 2 houses to live their life in not regulated to social housing. They are secured for future generations if need be. I pursued I achieved and now I am presumably a villain. Its funny how I am to blame for other people woes and I should accept their issues.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. but the US population value individualism over anything you just mentioned. That's the difference.

Exactly the same here. Very few people trust the government. That's a given. The only thin I care about is my family and friends not someone 3000 miles away. If I can secure my family well being for the future so be it. Something happen to us. They still have one of 2 houses to live their life in not regulated to social housing. They are secured for future generations if need be. I pursued I achieved and now I am presumably a villain. Its funny how I am to blame for other people woes and I should accept their issues. "

That's exactly it. Lack of empathy for your fellow americans.

It does appear to be anti patriotic.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

From the outside looking in, it looks like a lack of empathy for your fellow americans. And we have plenty like this here too, just maybe not as many."
I grew up in a welfare needy household. If it wasn't for me and my choices. I would probably still be on it. That is not going to happen anymore.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

From the outside looking in, it looks like a lack of empathy for your fellow americans. And we have plenty like this here too, just maybe not as many. I grew up in a welfare needy household. If it wasn't for me and my choices. I would probably still be on it. That is not going to happen anymore. "

I'm glad there was help for you when you were growing up. And it seems strange that you're so against the less well off recieving this kind of help.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

I'm glad there was help for you when you were growing up. And it seems strange that you're so against the less well off recieving this kind of help."
Because its a trap. Been there got out of it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

I'm glad there was help for you when you were growing up. And it seems strange that you're so against the less well off recieving this kind of help. Because its a trap. Been there got out of it."

What's the alternative, let poor people become destitute, homeless with no healthcare, no support?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

I'm glad there was help for you when you were growing up. And it seems strange that you're so against the less well off recieving this kind of help."
The help was me joining the military. Taking my bonuses and not pissing it away on cars and other new and next best things. Invested in real estate and my profession. Its not that hard to do.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

Not going to keep quoting. I think it is impossible to square the “individualism” being advocated in this thread with “patriotism”.

If all you care about is you, your spouse, your family then where does that leave community, society, county, state, nation?

I think the hallmarks of a good society and something to be patriotic about is how it looks after the poorest and least able of its citizens. Being rich/better off/successful is nothing to be ashamed of, in fact it is something to be proud of (if you achieved it on your own merits rather than inherited) but empathy and a desire to help those less fortunate just seems like the ethical decent things to do.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

I'm glad there was help for you when you were growing up. And it seems strange that you're so against the less well off recieving this kind of help. The help was me joining the military. Taking my bonuses and not pissing it away on cars and other new and next best things. Invested in real estate and my profession. Its not that hard to do."

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

"
yes.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes."

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you?"

Sorry to but in...

I have seen Blu's many times in life, they have seen hardship or been on welfare and managed to study or work their way out of it.

Something changes within them, they either see those around them as lazy or lacking ambition and distance themselves from that behaviour or mindset. Other times I have sen people go the opposite way and try and encourage or help others who are not so well off, as they remember where they came from.

It is life experiences and life lessons, that shape us

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you?"
love and devotion to a country that gave me the opportunity I chose to succeed.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *I TwoCouple
over a year ago

PDI 12-26th Nov 24

"What defines your patriotism? "

Someone who still believes brexit is good dispite knowing full well it isn't

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago

milton keynes

In the UK, honest people do not perform patriotism.

Actually it tends to be the George Cross flag of England that is associated with racist far right groups. In part that is also because of the link back to the Crusades."

I guess the other poster got their flags muddled up. It's a shame that events hundreds of years ago still influence how someone showing their national flag is viewed

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you?

Sorry to but in...

I have seen Blu's many times in life, they have seen hardship or been on welfare and managed to study or work their way out of it.

It is life experiences and life lessons, that shape us"
You are right when I see the welfare system get abused everyday. My empathy is thin. I don't want help and I do not need help. I like me being the individual I am on my achievments. My choices my outcome.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago

milton keynes

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power. "

I'm assuming that although many people may share many of those goals they may differ on how to achieve them

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you?

Sorry to but in...

I have seen Blu's many times in life, they have seen hardship or been on welfare and managed to study or work their way out of it.

It is life experiences and life lessons, that shape us You are right when I see the welfare system get abused everyday. My empathy is thin. I don't want help and I do not need help. I like me being the individual I am on my achievments. My choices my outcome."
When you know when you were raised on welfare. Get out if it and succeed then you get people daily screaming about government benefits then you look in their car and see mounds of burgee king wrappers overweight individual screaming about a 1 dollar copay for three diabetes medicine. Well we a country of self inflicted idiots. Empathy thin like I said. Happens all the time.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you? love and devotion to a country that gave me the opportunity I chose to succeed."

What is the country if it's not the people? The geography, the government?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you? love and devotion to a country that gave me the opportunity I chose to succeed.

What is the country if it's not the people? The geography, the government?

"
Being able to choose on all 3.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you? love and devotion to a country that gave me the opportunity I chose to succeed.

What is the country if it's not the people? The geography, the government?

Being able to choose on all 3."

Choose all 3 what's?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you? love and devotion to a country that gave me the opportunity I chose to succeed.

What is the country if it's not the people? The geography, the government?

Being able to choose on all 3.

Choose all 3 what's?"
The people the place and the government.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you? love and devotion to a country that gave me the opportunity I chose to succeed.

What is the country if it's not the people? The geography, the government?

Being able to choose on all 3.

Choose all 3 what's? The people the place and the government. "

Absolutely.

You mentioned you don't care about your fellow Americans. Just curious how that lines up with loving your country?

I'm not saying you're wrong BTW. Just don't understand.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you? love and devotion to a country that gave me the opportunity I chose to succeed.

What is the country if it's not the people? The geography, the government?

Being able to choose on all 3.

Choose all 3 what's? The people the place and the government.

Absolutely.

You mentioned you don't care about your fellow Americans. Just curious how that lines up with loving your country?

I'm not saying you're wrong BTW. Just don't understand. "
I care about people that have direct impact in my life. That like if you in financial distress you think I going to send you money? Your should be self reliant. Your not family or my friend or a acquaintance. Your choices defines ones love of family friends and country. I have different values. Just like others have thier opinions. I do not expect them to follow mine or me theirs. All you can do is encourage and show their is other ways. So my flag is always up because I am grateful for the life I am living. Choices being a patriotic individual.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you? love and devotion to a country that gave me the opportunity I chose to succeed.

What is the country if it's not the people? The geography, the government?

Being able to choose on all 3.

Choose all 3 what's? The people the place and the government.

Absolutely.

You mentioned you don't care about your fellow Americans. Just curious how that lines up with loving your country?

I'm not saying you're wrong BTW. Just don't understand. I care about people that have direct impact in my life. That like if you in financial distress you think I going to send you money? Your should be self reliant. Your not family or my friend or a acquaintance. Your choices defines ones love of family friends and country. I have different values. Just like others have thier opinions. I do not expect them to follow mine or me theirs. All you can do is encourage and show their is other ways. So my flag is always up because I am grateful for the life I am living. Choices being a patriotic individual."

Fair enough

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you? love and devotion to a country that gave me the opportunity I chose to succeed.

What is the country if it's not the people? The geography, the government?

Being able to choose on all 3.

Choose all 3 what's? The people the place and the government.

Absolutely.

You mentioned you don't care about your fellow Americans. Just curious how that lines up with loving your country?

I'm not saying you're wrong BTW. Just don't understand. I care about people that have direct impact in my life. That like if you in financial distress you think I going to send you money? Your should be self reliant. Your not family or my friend or an acquaintance. Your choices defines ones love of family friends and country. I have different values. Just like others have thier opinions. I do not expect them to follow mine or me theirs. All you can do is encourage and show their is other ways. So my flag is always up because I am grateful for the life I am living. Choices being a patriotic individual."

So if America was attacked would you want the army to defend you or would you wait until you’ve paid enough money personally to buy a tank before they bother defending you?

If you have a serious accident have you paid enough tax to provide an ambulance and the hospital theatre or maybe enough premiums on your insurance to build the hospital, oh and don’t forget the road to take you there . Maybe they should wait until you’ve paid enough money to build the road before the ambulance comes to your aid?

No you don’t you expect to pay just yourself any of those you expect your society as a whole to pay .

Whilst I respect your beliefs and definitely respect how well you have done for yourself, I think that your comments may reflect a political rather than real view.

I would suggest if you think it through you are showing double standards and your ideas are not reflected in your reality.

Just one last question. Who do you think it was other than “society” that paid for the military which as you say helped to lift you out of poverty?

Was that just you and your family or did it include people a thousand miles away?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What was the question again??

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My (non-exhaustive) list would include:

1. Nobody living in poverty.

2. Nobody unable to access high quality healthcare.

3. Nobody unable to access high quality education.

4. Everybody able to access good quality affordable housing.

5. Low crime rates.

6. True representative democracy with politicians held to account.

7. A high level of workers rights.

8. A high level of human rights.

9. A productive thriving economy that benefits everyone not just a minority.

10. People rewarded for hard work and intelligence.

11. A society that values the contribution people make to society not just wealth and power.

it is a interesting list. I have the whole list individually not collectively.

Except you don’t do you! Workers rights in the USA are very poor. You think a two party system is representative? Social housing in the USA? You may not be living in poverty, but I bet there are many in your county/state! The USA is dog eat dog! Not seeing much to be proud or patriotic about! I have no issues with my employer. Its a profession I chose to pursue. I get plenty of vacation time off in a emergency extended leave if necessary. My housing is my responsibility.It may sound crass to you but that is the is due here we think individually.

Would you have been able to do that if your family hadn't received any welfare when you were growing up?

yes.

Fair enough.

So if you don't care about your fellow Americans, what does patriotism mean to you? love and devotion to a country that gave me the opportunity I chose to succeed.

What is the country if it's not the people? The geography, the government?

Being able to choose on all 3.

Choose all 3 what's? The people the place and the government.

Absolutely.

You mentioned you don't care about your fellow Americans. Just curious how that lines up with loving your country?

I'm not saying you're wrong BTW. Just don't understand. I care about people that have direct impact in my life. That like if you in financial distress you think I going to send you money? Your should be self reliant. Your not family or my friend or an acquaintance. Your choices defines ones love of family friends and country. I have different values. Just like others have thier opinions. I do not expect them to follow mine or me theirs. All you can do is encourage and show their is other ways. So my flag is always up because I am grateful for the life I am living. Choices being a patriotic individual.

So if America was attacked would you want the army to defend you or would you wait until you’ve paid enough money personally to buy a tank before they bother defending you?

No you don’t you expect to pay just yourself any of those you expect your society as a whole to pay .

Whilst I respect your beliefs and definitely respect how well you have done for yourself, I think that your comments may reflect a political rather than real view.

I would suggest if you think it through you are showing double standards and your ideas are not reflected in your reality.

Just one last question. Who do you think it was other than “society” that paid for the military which as you say helped to lift you out of poverty?

Was that just you and your family or did it include people a thousand miles away?

Well as to all your questions the military is our #1 trusted institution. Do you need a better answer?