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"All those figures about train drivers' salaries is interesting, but it's not the drivers that are on strike." Exactly this. Why are people still going on about train drivers salaries when talking about the strikes. Its not the train drivers on strike. Yet despite all the information out there people keep parroting the right wing narrative about train drivers salaries. Yet the salaries and bonuses of the executives subsidised buy the government never gets a mention. | |||
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"yes i do back them 100% they have a union that backs them and that they back solidley why because everytime the companys have tried to bring something new that adds to the work load or resulted in job losses the union has fought to get the best for its members resulting in thier wages increasing massivley as a result .only wish more unions would do this rather than making cosey deals " Here is the problem "job losses". To prevent job losses the public will need to pay more for the rail services, more on ticket prices and railcards. Are the public prepared to pay more? If the public are happy to pay more, maybe there wouldn't be changes that would create job losses. Vicious circle, on an infrastructure that is already creaking. | |||
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"Not overly keen on train drivers getting an increase but yes for the likes of other staff like cleaners and others on low wages" I agree about train drivers but, for other staff, what are they earning and how do their salaries compare to other countries and, more importantly, those doing similar jobs in the UK? You mentioned cleaners. Cleaners are probably close to minimum wage / living wage. Therefore, they should have had an inflation rise already or one is already due. | |||
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"All those figures about train drivers' salaries is interesting, but it's not the drivers that are on strike. Exactly this. Why are people still going on about train drivers salaries when talking about the strikes. Its not the train drivers on strike. Yet despite all the information out there people keep parroting the right wing narrative about train drivers salaries. Yet the salaries and bonuses of the executives subsidised buy the government never gets a mention. " They're not on strike | |||
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"I support them, but not during the festive periods, just out of curiosity, arent they the most high payed sector, compared to nhs workers?" arent they the most high payed sector, compared to nhs workers? and what has that got to do with the price of fish ? stop falling for the tory right wing idea of setting one worker against another to set pay as low as possible if you want to make comparisons lets looks at what the lowest paid ( the workers ) and the highest paid (management ) get paid within each company/sector | |||
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"All those figures about train drivers' salaries is interesting, but it's not the drivers that are on strike. Exactly this. Why are people still going on about train drivers salaries when talking about the strikes. Its not the train drivers on strike. Yet despite all the information out there people keep parroting the right wing narrative about train drivers salaries. Yet the salaries and bonuses of the executives subsidised buy the government never gets a mention. They're not on strike " Neither are the drivers. | |||
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"It isn't all about pay. Rail companies want to remove all staff from trains except for drivers. Security and safety are compromised by this as well as fare collection as loads of stations are totally unmanned and semi derelict. " Driver only operation will only apply to certain commuter lines, and not to long distance trains. | |||
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"It isn't all about pay. Rail companies want to remove all staff from trains except for drivers. Security and safety are compromised by this as well as fare collection as loads of stations are totally unmanned and semi derelict. " Actually ASLEF the train drivers union say it is about a pay rise. They mention nothing about the items you have mentioned because they only represent train drivers.! | |||
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"So if you have any friends or relatives who are less able and therefore more likely to use public transport have you ever asked them about the assistance they get from station staff and guards when travelling by train? This could all disappear under the proposals of the train companies to remove guards from trains and staff from stations. Does anyone know if there are any solutions proposed by the rail companies or is it a case of “fuck the less able, we don’t need their custom!”?" This has still got nothing to do with the train drivers strike which is about pay according to their union. | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon." Currently the law in the land says there must be at least one person on a train. I believe that means either a train driver or someone on the train who in an emergency can take control of the train. If train companies want driverless trains without staff on them at all, that would take an act of Parliament to achieve that. | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon." Which short routes? | |||
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"So how is everything getting on with the latest train driver strike today?" I'm doing 7 day weeks to make for the time I'm losing in the office every day. Unfortunately our deadline dates and delivery contracts aren't on strike. 
Winston | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? " Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe. | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon." "Which short routes?" "Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe." The new Elizabeth line tunnel for another. | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe. The new Elizabeth line tunnel for another." Victoria Line even before the DLR. | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe. The new Elizabeth line tunnel for another. Victoria Line even before the DLR." Didn’t the Victoria line have manned, although not technically driven, trains to begin with? | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe. The new Elizabeth line tunnel for another. Victoria Line even before the DLR. Didn’t the Victoria line have manned, although not technically driven, trains to begin with?" There's one line, it may be the Victoria, where all the "drivers" do, is open and close the doors at stations. | |||
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"There's one line, it may be the Victoria, where all the "drivers" do, is open and close the doors at stations." The Central, Circle, District, Hammersmith and City, Jubilee, Metropolitan, Northern, and Victoria lines are all automated, with drivers that just open and close the doors. But those are all underground lines, not mainline rail. | |||
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"If the unions hadn't striked in the 70's resisted the 3 day week etc. Then me as a railway workers son, my life would have been different way different the opportunities I took and my siblings wouldn't have been in front of me if they had given in. I support resistance against those who have privallage and would be happy to see me poor and struggling. Remember this is about safety, terms and conditions, redundancies, the amount of cash that is going abroad to shareholders, lack of investment and pay."  | |||
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"If the unions hadn't striked in the 70's resisted the 3 day week etc. Then me as a railway workers son, my life would have been different way different the opportunities I took and my siblings wouldn't have been in front of me if they had given in. I support resistance against those who have privallage and would be happy to see me poor and struggling. Remember this is about safety, terms and conditions, redundancies, the amount of cash that is going abroad to shareholders, lack of investment and pay." Today's strike by the train drivers is about money according to ASLEF the train drivers Union. | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe." and they have a driver in the cab in case the automated system fails | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon." "Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon." "Which short routes?" "Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe." "and they have a driver in the cab in case the automated system fails " A quick Google image search will show you that DLR trains don't even have a cab, let alone a stand-by driver. There have been 2 accidents in total on the DLR, both of them when an engineer was manually driving the train. | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe. and they have a driver in the cab in case the automated system fails A quick Google image search will show you that DLR trains don't even have a cab, let alone a stand-by driver. There have been 2 accidents in total on the DLR, both of them when an engineer was manually driving the train." It's a scary thought but that sounds like the humans are the weak link in the chain | |||
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"Do you support them ? In 2021, the estimated average gross monthly earnings of train drivers ranged from €632 in Bulgaria to €5,542 in the UK. Among EU Member States, Denmark (€4,463) was the only country where train drivers earned more than €4,000. They were paid more than €3,000 in Ireland, Luxembourg, Germany and France. These countries were closely followed by the Netherlands (€2,947) and Finland (€2,939). In 16 EU Member States, train drivers received average gross monthly earnings of less than €2,000 in 2021. After Bulgaria, Romania (€901) and Hungary (€922) had the lowest salaries." Why are these comparisons between countries pertinent? What's an average salary in Romania? What's the cost of living and what're tax rates? How efficient is their service? Are you envious of train drivers being well paid, on average? Do you want them to be poorer? Would you expect your pay to rise after several years of zero pay rises (cuts) and a below inflation rise (cut) now with changes in working practises? | |||
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"yes i do back them 100% they have a union that backs them and that they back solidley why because everytime the companys have tried to bring something new that adds to the work load or resulted in job losses the union has fought to get the best for its members resulting in thier wages increasing massivley as a result .only wish more unions would do this rather than making cosey deals Here is the problem "job losses". To prevent job losses the public will need to pay more for the rail services, more on ticket prices and railcards. Are the public prepared to pay more? If the public are happy to pay more, maybe there wouldn't be changes that would create job losses. Vicious circle, on an infrastructure that is already creaking. " Are the public prepared to pay the true cost of the service? Most European countries subsidise public transport. Is there a reason for this? We've seen the cost to the economy of rail strikes, so n purely capitalist principles train drivers are not overpaid. What will commuting be like if everyone was gridlocked in traffic? | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe. and they have a driver in the cab in case the automated system fails A quick Google image search will show you that DLR trains don't even have a cab, let alone a stand-by driver. There have been 2 accidents in total on the DLR, both of them when an engineer was manually driving the train." Getting on a DLR train will tell you that there is an attendant on the train. Automated are very efficient under controlled circumstances. However, not when something goes wrong. People are much better at coping in emergencies and dealing with other people in crises. Hence they are all manned. There is also a world of difference between operating trains at high automation with five to ten minute gaps between stops allowing for help to arrive very quickly I am emergency. This is not the same situation for overland train routes. If something goes wrong, what happens on an unmanned train? | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe. and they have a driver in the cab in case the automated system fails A quick Google image search will show you that DLR trains don't even have a cab, let alone a stand-by driver. There have been 2 accidents in total on the DLR, both of them when an engineer was manually driving the train. It's a scary thought but that sounds like the humans are the weak link in the chain" The accident rate on the rail network is generally very low so it shouldn't be a scary thought. | |||
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"One of the highest paid jobs i know of, causing hardship and disruption because they can, self centred " Politicians and ral managers are better paid. So you want train drivers to earn less? Anybody else who's on strike? "Self-centred" nurses and ambulance drivers? Teachers? Civil servants? Would you like a pay cut? Who else do you think would happily accept one? | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe. and they have a driver in the cab in case the automated system fails A quick Google image search will show you that DLR trains don't even have a cab, let alone a stand-by driver. There have been 2 accidents in total on the DLR, both of them when an engineer was manually driving the train. It's a scary thought but that sounds like the humans are the weak link in the chain The accident rate on the rail network is generally very low so it shouldn't be a scary thought." The sui ide rate is high people do like to jump in front of trains. So yes I'd call that scary. | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe. and they have a driver in the cab in case the automated system fails A quick Google image search will show you that DLR trains don't even have a cab, let alone a stand-by driver. There have been 2 accidents in total on the DLR, both of them when an engineer was manually driving the train. It's a scary thought but that sounds like the humans are the weak link in the chain The accident rate on the rail network is generally very low so it shouldn't be a scary thought. The sui ide rate is high people do like to jump in front of trains. So yes I'd call that scary." The point being made was that it was scary that humans were more likely to have accidents than automated trains. That probably isn't true in a statistically significant way. | |||
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"Hopefully self driving trains will be brought in soon. Already happens on some short routes and must be easier than self driving cars, which are being trialled soon. Which short routes? Docklands Light Railway for one. Since 1987 I believe. and they have a driver in the cab in case the automated system fails A quick Google image search will show you that DLR trains don't even have a cab, let alone a stand-by driver. There have been 2 accidents in total on the DLR, both of them when an engineer was manually driving the train." All DLR trains are manned at all times. The front seating area have the controls to operate the train and at certain times the on board staff do so. For example, the on board staff operate the train to enter and leave the depot basically because the depots use different signalling equipment. As I stated before the law of the land states there must be a member of staff on board a train. | |||
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"All DLR trains are manned at all times.The front seating area have the controls to operate the train and at certain times the on board staff do so." In the early days they used to run the trains completely unstaffed, but with more passengers on them nowadays, they almost always have a "train captain" on board. The staff often operate the doors, as it gives them something to do. Manually driving the train is not possible for normal operations as there is a 19kph (12mph) speed limit on manual operations, and the timetable can't be met if the trains are limited to that speed. "For example, the on board staff operate the train to enter and leave the depot basically because the depots use different signalling equipment." I'm not sure if that's the reason. It would seem weird that they built a dedicated DLR depot, and then installed signalling that the trains couldn't use. Regardless, the trains do indeed need a driver to get into and out of the depot. They are only automated on the passenger carrying parts of the network. "As I stated before the law of the land states there must be a member of staff on board a train." That's just not true. There is no law that requires a train to have a member of staff on board. The unions will say that Health and Safety law requires a staff presence, but there's no explicit law that mandates it. | |||
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"The sooner we have driverless trains the better it’s the public that are being screwed " There have been a couple of feasibility studies done on full automation for the London Underground. The conclusions are that the technology does not currently exist, and that the costs were projected to run into the trillions. Just for the tube, the mainline rail network is several orders of magnitude greater than that. A trillion pounds is enough to pay every train driver in the country for a thousand years. Sometimes it’s better to actually pay people to do a job, rather than blindly pursue the will-o-the-wisp of automation… | |||
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"There have been a couple of feasibility studies done on full automation for the London Underground. The conclusions are that the technology does not currently exist, and that the costs were projected to run into the trillions." That was for fully unstaffed working, which is fraught with difficulties when considering fire risk underground. What we need is to get rid of the drivers, and replace them with a 'guard' (or 'train captain' or whatever). That means that there's a person on-board to deter crime and help passengers, and that person can make decisions in emergencies. | |||
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"There have been a couple of feasibility studies done on full automation for the London Underground. The conclusions are that the technology does not currently exist, and that the costs were projected to run into the trillions. That was for fully unstaffed working, which is fraught with difficulties when considering fire risk underground. What we need is to get rid of the drivers, and replace them with a 'guard' (or 'train captain' or whatever). That means that there's a person on-board to deter crime and help passengers, and that person can make decisions in emergencies." Why do we "need" to get rid of the drivers? A real network should be an easier environment for autonomous control but still appears to be very challenging. Agreed, there will probably always need to be staff on the train. They should still be free to strike for acceptable pay and working conditions. How much are they paid on DLR trains compared to a tube driver? | |||
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"Why do we "need" to get rid of the drivers?" The rail companies are keen to cut costs and move to one-person operation. Should that one person be a guard, strolling up and down the train smiling at people and checking tickets? Or should that one person be a driver locked in the cab the entire time? "They should still be free to strike for acceptable pay and working conditions." Agreed. "How much are they paid on DLR trains compared to a tube driver?" Apparently a DLR 'train captain' is paid £42k, where a normal tube driver is paid £56k. I'd argue that automated line tube drivers are grossly overpaid for what they do, and that the DLR pay level is pretty good for a fairly simple unskilled job. | |||
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"Why do we "need" to get rid of the drivers? The rail companies are keen to cut costs and move to one-person operation. Should that one person be a guard, strolling up and down the train smiling at people and checking tickets? Or should that one person be a driver locked in the cab the entire time? They should still be free to strike for acceptable pay and working conditions. Agreed. How much are they paid on DLR trains compared to a tube driver? Apparently a DLR 'train captain' is paid £42k, where a normal tube driver is paid £56k. I'd argue that automated line tube drivers are grossly overpaid for what they do, and that the DLR pay level is pretty good for a fairly simple unskilled job." As I stated, the capability for autonomous functionality on the majority of the rail network is more limited than it may seem. We also has a rail network unwilling to invest to reduce long-term costs because it is not incentivised to do so by government contracts or the quarterly earnings process. I agree that it would be preferable to have staff in the cabin actively improving passenger experience. However, they need to be trained. Safety, first aid, customer care. They are also needed as a safety critical function so they are worth as much as a train driver because if they are not there the network does not function with the economic cost associated with that. If you want lower prices then you need a supply of staff wanting to do the job and whom you are willing to pay to train as staff turns over. They are paid what they are worth with the ability to strike. If you really want to pay them less reduce their ability to withdraw their labour. Oh, wait... | |||
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