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Why don't we renationalise energy suppliers?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

It seems every day, the amount we're gonna have to pay goes up. And while more and more people suffer, enegry companies keep announcing huge profits + paying out huge amounts to shareholders. Why the hell should we all put up with this?

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

How would we do that?

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By *uddy laneMan
over a year ago

dudley


"It seems every day, the amount we're gonna have to pay goes up. And while more and more people suffer, enegry companies keep announcing huge profits + paying out huge amounts to shareholders. Why the hell should we all put up with this?"

Nothing to worry about regarding the energy suppliers they are been bailed out to the tune £400 on each account by the UK electorate.

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton


"How would we do that?"

The French have done it/are doing it. The French Govt part owned EDF. They are now nationalising the rest.

They also limited the price rise of electricity to 4%.

Which was probably subsidised by British bill payers who are being fleeced.

TBH when millions of people in the UK either cannot or refuse to pay their bills, the energy companies will come cap in hand to the Govt. the condition should be full/part nationalisation.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West


"How would we do that?"

You prohibit unacceptable price rises and decline to bail out the energy companies as they go bust. Then you sweep them up into a tax-payer owned energy supply network.

It won’t stop the change in global prices but, as we have seen in France it would enable the Government to ease out the peaks and troughs in the national interest.

Unfortunately it is dead against Conservative ideology even though it has been proven across other sectors as well that the consumer only benefits to a very small degree when the sun is shining and the outlook is rosy. In troubled times, the consumer gets hammered.

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma


"How would we do that?

You prohibit unacceptable price rises and decline to bail out the energy companies as they go bust. Then you sweep them up into a tax-payer owned energy supply network.

It won’t stop the change in global prices but, as we have seen in France it would enable the Government to ease out the peaks and troughs in the national interest.

Unfortunately it is dead against Conservative ideology even though it has been proven across other sectors as well that the consumer only benefits to a very small degree when the sun is shining and the outlook is rosy. In troubled times, the consumer gets hammered."

thank you and @Birldn, I wasn't aware the French were in the middle of doing this, it will be good to see how it works out

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By *coptoCouple
over a year ago

Côte d'Azur & Great Yarmouth

"... subsidised by British bill payers who are being fleeced"

I'm a committed Francophile (which explains why post-Brexit we live here permanently), but that pretty much sums it up.

The UK's Big Fifteen is now reduced to being at the mercy of Germany's E.On, France's EDF and Spain's Iberdrola.

Too late to change anything, though...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway.

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway."

or neither of those will happen.

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol

Our governments don’t have the balls to do it they are too scared of the corporate lawyers plus a lot of them probably have shares.

Same with the bullshit standing charges that we all get hit with as it’s guaranteed money for them even if you sat there in the dark not using any gas or electric

I think there is a real chance of civil unrest because people just cannot afford such rapid price rises as some people will be looking at £80pw just to have light and heat

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway.

or neither of those will happen."

Coming from a country that has power sector nationalised, I can vouch for it.

You have a commodity for which supply is not meeting demand. And your solution is to keep the price in control and let the people use the commodity at the same price they used to?

That's what state governments in India have been doing for years. For 3 continuous years, we were having 6-8 hours power cut per day. Because increasing the price would screw up their electoral chances, they kept the same price even though they didn't have supply to match the needs. People who had money started buying inverter batteries to store electricity for power cuts. This only made the situation worse for people who didn't have it leading to more frequent power cuts.

After opening a new nuclear power plant after lots of protests and the government wasting a big chunk of tax money to buy electricity from outside, we are now having "only" two hours power cut per day.

Nationalising something to reduce prices is just a textbook left wing populist move to fool people into thinking that it's good for them while taking them towards disaster. Basic economics.

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway.

or neither of those will happen.

Coming from a country that has power sector nationalised, I can vouch for it.

You have a commodity for which supply is not meeting demand. And your solution is to keep the price in control and let the people use the commodity at the same price they used to?

That's what state governments in India have been doing for years. For 3 continuous years, we were having 6-8 hours power cut per day. Because increasing the price would screw up their electoral chances, they kept the same price even though they didn't have supply to match the needs. People who had money started buying inverter batteries to store electricity for power cuts. This only made the situation worse for people who didn't have it leading to more frequent power cuts.

After opening a new nuclear power plant after lots of protests and the government wasting a big chunk of tax money to buy electricity from outside, we are now having "only" two hours power cut per day.

Nationalising something to reduce prices is just a textbook left wing populist move to fool people into thinking that it's good for them while taking them towards disaster. Basic economics."

Except your entire premise is based on the assumption that it would work here like it worked there. Which is a HUGE assumption.

Denmark and The netherlands are 100% publicly owned as well and they are not suffering that fate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway.

or neither of those will happen.

Coming from a country that has power sector nationalised, I can vouch for it.

You have a commodity for which supply is not meeting demand. And your solution is to keep the price in control and let the people use the commodity at the same price they used to?

That's what state governments in India have been doing for years. For 3 continuous years, we were having 6-8 hours power cut per day. Because increasing the price would screw up their electoral chances, they kept the same price even though they didn't have supply to match the needs. People who had money started buying inverter batteries to store electricity for power cuts. This only made the situation worse for people who didn't have it leading to more frequent power cuts.

After opening a new nuclear power plant after lots of protests and the government wasting a big chunk of tax money to buy electricity from outside, we are now having "only" two hours power cut per day.

Nationalising something to reduce prices is just a textbook left wing populist move to fool people into thinking that it's good for them while taking them towards disaster. Basic economics.

Except your entire premise is based on the assumption that it would work here like it worked there. Which is a HUGE assumption.

Denmark and The netherlands are 100% publicly owned as well and they are not suffering that fate."

That's so cute. Denmark has the second highest electricity price per kwh after Germany while they also pay HUGE amount of taxes compared to UK.

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway.

or neither of those will happen.

Coming from a country that has power sector nationalised, I can vouch for it.

You have a commodity for which supply is not meeting demand. And your solution is to keep the price in control and let the people use the commodity at the same price they used to?

That's what state governments in India have been doing for years. For 3 continuous years, we were having 6-8 hours power cut per day. Because increasing the price would screw up their electoral chances, they kept the same price even though they didn't have supply to match the needs. People who had money started buying inverter batteries to store electricity for power cuts. This only made the situation worse for people who didn't have it leading to more frequent power cuts.

After opening a new nuclear power plant after lots of protests and the government wasting a big chunk of tax money to buy electricity from outside, we are now having "only" two hours power cut per day.

Nationalising something to reduce prices is just a textbook left wing populist move to fool people into thinking that it's good for them while taking them towards disaster. Basic economics.

Except your entire premise is based on the assumption that it would work here like it worked there. Which is a HUGE assumption.

Denmark and The netherlands are 100% publicly owned as well and they are not suffering that fate.

That's so cute. Denmark has the second highest electricity price per kwh after Germany while they also pay HUGE amount of taxes compared to UK."

I never said the outcome would be preferable I was just showing that your statement of one of two things will happen was not accurate.

So I was right and you were wrong... have fun with that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway.

or neither of those will happen.

Coming from a country that has power sector nationalised, I can vouch for it.

You have a commodity for which supply is not meeting demand. And your solution is to keep the price in control and let the people use the commodity at the same price they used to?

That's what state governments in India have been doing for years. For 3 continuous years, we were having 6-8 hours power cut per day. Because increasing the price would screw up their electoral chances, they kept the same price even though they didn't have supply to match the needs. People who had money started buying inverter batteries to store electricity for power cuts. This only made the situation worse for people who didn't have it leading to more frequent power cuts.

After opening a new nuclear power plant after lots of protests and the government wasting a big chunk of tax money to buy electricity from outside, we are now having "only" two hours power cut per day.

Nationalising something to reduce prices is just a textbook left wing populist move to fool people into thinking that it's good for them while taking them towards disaster. Basic economics.

Except your entire premise is based on the assumption that it would work here like it worked there. Which is a HUGE assumption.

Denmark and The netherlands are 100% publicly owned as well and they are not suffering that fate.

That's so cute. Denmark has the second highest electricity price per kwh after Germany while they also pay HUGE amount of taxes compared to UK.

I never said the outcome would be preferable I was just showing that your statement of one of two things will happen was not accurate.

So I was right and you were wrong... have fun with that"

That's so funny. My argument was about the impact of price controls. Denmark did not impose price controls. They seemed to have increase prices even more than other countries when the demand rose.

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"That's so funny. My argument was about the impact of price controls. Denmark did not impose price controls. They seemed to have increase prices even more than other countries when the demand rose."

Your argument was "Two things will happen" Self contradictory ones too, which meant it was actually almost impossible for you to be right. Denmark, one of them is true. The best you can lay claim to is we were both wrong.

But you haven't disproven The Netherlands and I haven't looked for more examples.

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By *atssleepanywhereTV/TS
over a year ago

Wolverhampton

Sadly bringing back the utilities will not work because we have a chocolate teapot government and lots of pension funds are invested in it all. Better to protect the UK consumer by removing the effect of energy debt on personal credit rating and capping the amount recoverable through courts or debt collection agencies at £500 total and £50 per year. An unpaid utility bill should not be recoverable through charges on property.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"That's so funny. My argument was about the impact of price controls. Denmark did not impose price controls. They seemed to have increase prices even more than other countries when the demand rose.

Your argument was "Two things will happen" Self contradictory ones too, which meant it was actually almost impossible for you to be right. Denmark, one of them is true. The best you can lay claim to is we were both wrong.

But you haven't disproven The Netherlands and I haven't looked for more examples."

My argument was both will happen in case of government imposed price controls which seemed to be the point of OP. I also explained the theory behind why it will happen. If you would rather pay higher prices under government ownership, that's commendable.

Just did a quick search. Netherlands and UK had same average prices at the end of 2021. Between January and June, both countries seem to have massive up and downs in prices. You can check statista. UK gas prices are lower. Netherlands electricity prices are lower. That's just consumer price without including the tax money.

As for other examples, good luck finding one

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"That's so funny. My argument was about the impact of price controls. Denmark did not impose price controls. They seemed to have increase prices even more than other countries when the demand rose.

Your argument was "Two things will happen" Self contradictory ones too, which meant it was actually almost impossible for you to be right. Denmark, one of them is true. The best you can lay claim to is we were both wrong.

But you haven't disproven The Netherlands and I haven't looked for more examples.

My argument was both will happen in case of government imposed price controls which seemed to be the point of OP. I also explained the theory behind why it will happen. If you would rather pay higher prices under government ownership, that's commendable.

Just did a quick search. Netherlands and UK had same average prices at the end of 2021. Between January and June, both countries seem to have massive up and downs in prices. You can check statista. UK gas prices are lower. Netherlands electricity prices are lower. That's just consumer price without including the tax money.

As for other examples, good luck finding one "

Your original argument was "Two things will happen" That is what I contradicted.

You have since Changed that argument and honestly i don't have that huge an issue with what you said other than that you presented it as the only option when it is clearly not the only option.

Moving the goal posts to your own statement is always going to favour you, obviously.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"That's so funny. My argument was about the impact of price controls. Denmark did not impose price controls. They seemed to have increase prices even more than other countries when the demand rose.

Your argument was "Two things will happen" Self contradictory ones too, which meant it was actually almost impossible for you to be right. Denmark, one of them is true. The best you can lay claim to is we were both wrong.

But you haven't disproven The Netherlands and I haven't looked for more examples.

My argument was both will happen in case of government imposed price controls which seemed to be the point of OP. I also explained the theory behind why it will happen. If you would rather pay higher prices under government ownership, that's commendable.

Just did a quick search. Netherlands and UK had same average prices at the end of 2021. Between January and June, both countries seem to have massive up and downs in prices. You can check statista. UK gas prices are lower. Netherlands electricity prices are lower. That's just consumer price without including the tax money.

As for other examples, good luck finding one

Your original argument was "Two things will happen" That is what I contradicted.

You have since Changed that argument and honestly i don't have that huge an issue with what you said other than that you presented it as the only option when it is clearly not the only option.

Moving the goal posts to your own statement is always going to favour you, obviously."

I was replying to the original post which was about nationalising the power sector to reduce the cost for consumers. If you misunderstood the post and replied, you can accept and move on. No need to use strawmen to defend your argument.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

Isn't the problem the wholesale supplier pricing?

Your end supplier is not responsible for the open market prices they have to pay to supply you.

Nationalisation will make little difference as many end suppliers are making losses already.

They buy on International markets, so if government took them over, it would make little difference as they'd be buying at the same price.

Scottish Power are making huge losses in supplying gas to customers but being propped up by the wind turbines they operate on and off shore.

If you look at the companies that went bust last year, they were all "buy it, sell it" middle man dealers. The ones still standing generate their own electricity from other sources to offset against gas prices.

You'd have to convince Norway, Emirates, Kuwait, USA and others we buy gas from to nationalise their industries and that isn't going to happen.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

[Removed by poster at 10/08/22 01:44:29]

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge


"How would we do that?

The French have done it/are doing it. The French Govt part owned EDF. They are now nationalising the rest.

They also limited the price rise of electricity to 4%.

Which was probably subsidised by British bill payers who are being fleeced.

TBH when millions of people in the UK either cannot or refuse to pay their bills, the energy companies will come cap in hand to the Govt. the condition should be full/part nationalisation. "

The ONLY reason the French government is taking control of EDF is that it will fail without massive government financial support, hence having to take full control. Government subsidised, not nationalised is more the reason.

It is being constrained by fixed prices that no normal company could stand, the government is by the back door pumping cash in to keep it viable in the hope that they get repayed later.

It was due to such market interference and restrictions at-home, EDF stuck fingers in pies in other countries that was unrestricted - the UK being one.

With the government price fix and without government finance backing, it would collapse.

Considering EDF run most of France's nuclear power it would be a disaster as no one would be willing to take them over.

Natwest for Energy..

As for the stupidity of cancellation of Direct Debits by a million people, the government won't step in other than at tax payers expense, give them keep-afloat loans and allow price increases to put it on the backs of other the 64 million still paying until they recoup their losses plus costs.

They'll recover their outstanding plus non DD fees, late pay fees, interest, court and bailiffs costs. Attachments to earnings, benefits, charges on property and the possibility of being kicked out of renting.

CCJs, no credit, down graded banking, no credit cards, no tenancy clearance, no car loans no mortgage or remortgage and higher interest rates if you are accepted.

Sounds like a fuckin great idea to me.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge


"Sadly bringing back the utilities will not work because we have a chocolate teapot government and lots of pension funds are invested in it all. Better to protect the UK consumer by removing the effect of energy debt on personal credit rating and capping the amount recoverable through courts or debt collection agencies at £500 total and £50 per year. An unpaid utility bill should not be recoverable through charges on property. "

Agree with longer period of payback, although, the companies still need to pay suppliers.

Does that mean to cover the period of someone else's debt being repayed and only paying £500, that my bill have to go up to cover the losses?

Hardly fair..

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton


"How would we do that?

The French have done it/are doing it. The French Govt part owned EDF. They are now nationalising the rest.

They also limited the price rise of electricity to 4%.

Which was probably subsidised by British bill payers who are being fleeced.

TBH when millions of people in the UK either cannot or refuse to pay their bills, the energy companies will come cap in hand to the Govt. the condition should be full/part nationalisation.

The ONLY reason the French government is taking control of EDF is that it will fail without massive government financial support, hence having to take full control. Government subsidised, not nationalised is more the reason.

It is being constrained by fixed prices that no normal company could stand, the government is by the back door pumping cash in to keep it viable in the hope that they get repayed later.

It was due to such market interference and restrictions at-home, EDF stuck fingers in pies in other countries that was unrestricted - the UK being one.

With the government price fix and without government finance backing, it would collapse.

Considering EDF run most of France's nuclear power it would be a disaster as no one would be willing to take them over.

Natwest for Energy..

As for the stupidity of cancellation of Direct Debits by a million people, the government won't step in other than at tax payers expense, give them keep-afloat loans and allow price increases to put it on the backs of other the 64 million still paying until they recoup their losses plus costs.

They'll recover their outstanding plus non DD fees, late pay fees, interest, court and bailiffs costs. Attachments to earnings, benefits, charges on property and the possibility of being kicked out of renting.

CCJs, no credit, down graded banking, no credit cards, no tenancy clearance, no car loans no mortgage or remortgage and higher interest rates if you are accepted.

Sounds like a fuckin great idea to me."

Agree not paying your bill is not the best idea but some people genuinely will not be able to. What happens then? If millions of people do not pay those gas/electric suppliers will cone to the Govt for support just like the banks in 2008. They will have to be nationalised.

Another scandal is that there are no binding covenants on the gas and oil extracted from the British area of the North Sea. Foresight coups have built in a requirement to prioritise domestic markets in time of crisis (with price caps). Instead the oil/gas is sold on the open market bringing no benefit to the UK.

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

*Foresight could

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

We really might reach a point where millions refuse to pay their bills. Could be a poll tax moment...

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton


"We really might reach a point where millions refuse to pay their bills. Could be a poll tax moment..."

I actually think it will happen and it will be two tier...

1) Some people genuinely will not have the money to pay the bills. The “can’t pay”

2) Some people will refuse to pay on principal. The “won’t pay”

Either way we have a big crisis around the corner.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

Nah..

It'll just be loaded onto the rest of us. Short sighted, selfish, silliness, there are funds and more will be available to those who can't pay.

Just like sitting on motorways causing inconvenience to others to make a point.

There is a difference in court between unable to pay and refuse to pay. Courts won't have sympathy for refusing.

Yesterday was the lowest gas input to electricity I've seen since February 42%, it was breezy offshore and the sun was shining and yet, still standing at a considerable amount of reliance on gas.

Refusing to pay will risk your direct supplier going bust or being unable to buy on the Spot Market, as wholesale providers will simply divert to companies with cash flow to cover - Germany for example, leaving us in the dark.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

The blame ultimately lies with 20years of government failures to heed warnings and mitigate gas reliance.

How many times over the last 20years have we failed to stand up to Putin, because "we are concerned gas supply would be threatened".

Well, that day has arrived, with a tiny panic investment in wind, trickle of Solar, domestic Solar industry screwed by subsidies that set the mindset - "Solar is not worth it" because you no longer get paid 55p/kwh subsidies.

I speak to people daily, same negative responses. "It's not worth it", "It will devalue my house","the warranty is 25yrs, will panels last that long as claiming won't be easy", "30 year payback".. same ole, same ole regurgitated crap that came from Martin Lewis's mouth.

Has Martin Lewis been on TV telling people that if they have £7k sat in ISA or Savings to use it for Solar/Battery - No.

I saw it coming and spent the last 6yrs preparing, it started by having an inverter that supported batteries, I had the house wired to backfeed battery in the event of power loss. Sarcy comments thrown against me instead of actually listening. Not only online, but my local MP and Councillors and neighbours have laughed at me. The same neighbours are now knocking on my door begging for advice.

Whose laughing now? Who will be laughing when lights are out, people are freezing and my family's here watching TV with heating on. My Councillor said he'd call round if needed to get warm. My greatest pleasure will be telling him to go fuck himself as I'd asked him to get me in front of someone from government and he refused.

People won't get support they need, they'll be told if they are cold to head to a "Welcome Centre" or get on a bus.

E-On are currently running an advertising campaign for Solar with tagline "this customer is doing his bit for Climate Change", not "this customer is saving a fuckin fortune on his energy bills and helping with Climate Change".

If one was to invest the £7k today, in 25 years, you'll have an extra £35k plus in your pension pot without the stress of bills.

I've made changes this month to Water heating that's going to reduce the current contracted payment down by £20/month. In real terms, once out of contract in '24, that £20/month equates to £550 per year capped rates after October.

I've offered before, I'm happy to advise anyone what they need, where to get and how to have installed - just drop me a DM. But I'll ignore the shitty, sarcastic comments.

Today, I'm running Air Conditioners all day, running the washer, the dryer all for nothing and still will have surplus power. Generating 4kwh right now and burning 3.5kwh just because I can to run 3x Air Con units.

I have invested a lot of thought, done it DIY on a shoestring and it works, gas requirements here for 12months is 4x 47kg LPG cylinders and they are now at side of my house, with a spare.

I ignored Lewis's "do nothing" in October and signed up for 3yrs at 19p and 8p. I put warnings here in March to get fixed as I foresaw today, but how many listened? I put two elderly relatives in March on what was at the time deemed an expensive 2yr @ 32p and 12p tariff which now is nearly half what October rates will be, saving them over £1000 each.

In the next 12 months, I am arranging Solar for them. 70 year olds with Solar, who'd have thought it!

6x houses within 400yrds of me just been bought and completly gutted, new roofs installed not a single Solar Panel on any - why?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Isn't the problem the wholesale supplier pricing?

Your end supplier is not responsible for the open market prices they have to pay to supply you.

Nationalisation will make little difference as many end suppliers are making losses already.

They buy on International markets, so if government took them over, it would make little difference as they'd be buying at the same price.

Scottish Power are making huge losses in supplying gas to customers but being propped up by the wind turbines they operate on and off shore.

If you look at the companies that went bust last year, they were all "buy it, sell it" middle man dealers. The ones still standing generate their own electricity from other sources to offset against gas prices.

You'd have to convince Norway, Emirates, Kuwait, USA and others we buy gas from to nationalise their industries and that isn't going to happen.

"
no convincing the US we don't want nationalism of anything. No investments in drilling for gas = a rough winter for everyone that relies on it.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

Norway's warned UK and EU Governments that their supplies are stressed and cutting back exports to protect their stocks for Winter.

40% of our gas is from Norway and the UK has very little storage. Another own goal by letting companies sell of storage and sell the land for development.

Miles Platting Manchester Gas works for one, now the home of Manchester City's Etihad stadium.

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton


"Norway's warned UK and EU Governments that their supplies are stressed and cutting back exports to protect their stocks for Winter.

40% of our gas is from Norway and the UK has very little storage. Another own goal by letting companies sell of storage and sell the land for development.

Miles Platting Manchester Gas works for one, now the home of Manchester City's Etihad stadium."

Lack of storage. No binding covenants on North Sea licenses to prioritise domestic market in crisis. No sovereign wealth fund. Mistake after mistake by short term focused politicians. What a mess!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway."

How can you still be drinking the Tory coolade??

It's totally ideological, the French energy supply is nationalised. Their energy bills have gone up 4%, ours is privatised and has gone up 215%!

That says it all for me let alone we are paying EDF/French state for our energy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway.

How can you still be drinking the Tory coolade??

It's totally ideological, the French energy supply is nationalised. Their energy bills have gone up 4%, ours is privatised and has gone up 215%!

That says it all for me let alone we are paying EDF/French state for our energy. "

One doesn't have to drink tory coolaid to look at facts. When a commodity is so short in supply compared to demand, it's wishful thinking to believe that the prices can be kept low magically. The wholesale costs have increased. France will end up paying that through taxes instead of making public to pay for it. Of course, public will blindly believe that the government somehow magically shielded them.

When supply doesn't match demand, you have two options. Increase the supply or reduce the demand. Increase in supply is the right solution. But it looks like no one has that option right now. Until supply increases, demand has to be controlled. That's exactly what price rises do in a free market economy. It tells people that a commodity is in shortage and people need to be careful using it. If you are letting people use electricity the same way as before, you are only making the situation lot worse. This is just logical reasoning. How exactly is reducing prices to make people use something that it's in high demand going to solve the problem or supply shortage? Giving monetary subsidies and letting people decide for themselves how to use the money is a much better solution.

Now France has done some good things in the past decade. For instance, building many nuclear power plants which provide most of their energy supply is a really good move. This reduces their dependency on fossil fuels. That's something the Tories definitely screwed up. But given the current situation, you either pay high electricity bills for what you use or pay indirectly through taxes. There is no way out of it.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"If one was to invest the £7k today, in 25 years, you'll have an extra £35k plus in your pension pot without the stress of bills."

Last year I was quoted 9k for a 10 panel install with a y 2.5kWh battery. I'd not make the savings you suggest with that, and I'll bet the price has gone up since then.


"Today, I'm running Air Conditioners all day, running the washer, the dryer ..."

What on earth are you running the dryer for?

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

[Removed by poster at 11/08/22 10:26:55]

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

The dryer..

I LOVE soft fluffy towels and bed linen..

Shot of Lenor and tumble for 60 mins, it's heaven. Washing bedsheets weekly at moment. It's sheer luxury.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

@lost..

"When supply doesn't match demand, you have two options. Increase the supply or reduce the demand. Increase in supply is the right solution. But it looks like no one has that option right now."

There is a third option which is looking highly likely, to go without..

Below is details of a speech Tony Blair made in 2006. READ his words CAREFULLY. "Energy Security", it makes me want to crap!!

What the hell did he, Brown, Cameron and Clegg, May and Johnson do in the light of this.

Tony Blair, one of the longest standing Prime Ministers did absolutely nothing. Kicking nuclear down the road, no investment in Wind, Solar or Tidal.

Yes, Johnson has done very slightly better in setting up wind on a footing, but as we see right now and will become more obvious in Winter - it's too little, too late.

They saw it coming, and have done nothing. Now pushing a fallacy of Heat Pumps that switch energy from gas to electricity, pushing electric vehicles all creating significant extra demand on the Grid and ultimately, gas supply.

What good is an EV if you can't charge it?

Government failures right through from Labour to Conservative and they'll all have blood on their hands when people start freezing and starving to death this winter.

They've led us up the garden path to disaster.

------

In his speech last night Mr Blair said: "Essentially, the twin pressures of climate change and energy security are raising energy policy to the top of the agenda in the UK and around the world.

Effectively pre-empting the outcome of the government's energy review due to be published in July, Mr Blair, in a speech to the CBI, said the issue of a new generation of stations was back on the agenda with a vengeance, alongside a big push on renewables and a step change in energy efficiency.

"The facts are stark. By 2025, if current policy is unchanged there will be a dramatic gap on our targets to reduce CO2 emissions, we will become heavily dependent on gas and at the same time move from being 80% to 90% self-reliant in gas to 80% to 90% dependent on foreign imports, mostly from the Middle East, and Africa and Russia.

"These facts put the replacement of nuclear power stations, a big push on renewables and a step change on energy efficiency, engaging both business and consumers, back on the agenda with a vengeance.

If we don't take these long-term decisions now we will be committing a serious dereliction of our duty to the future of this country."

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

4kw panels £3200

Hybrid Inverter £1400

10kwh battery £2900

Roofer and Scaffold £1000

Electrician £500

Cheaper to source yourself and find roofer and Electrician.

Expected saving next 2 years, £2,500 per year, after 2024 IF prices fall £1,500.

£2,500 yr1

£2,500 yr2

£1,500 yr3

£1,500 yr4

Paid for in full in 4 years, then 20 years of free power - might need to cover a new inverter during this although many now have 20yr warranty cover.

Mine took 6yrs to payback at 15p/kw and batteries were lead acid at £1000. These are now upgraded to 40kwh lithium as I now import and sell them.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

Other option, forget batteries.

Use heavy appliances and heaters during the day to pre-heat house. Sell unused to Grid.

This will reduce bills by 40%.

Standard Inverters are £600.

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By *inxnmasterCouple
over a year ago

naughty valley


"Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway.

or neither of those will happen.

Coming from a country that has power sector nationalised, I can vouch for it.

You have a commodity for which supply is not meeting demand. And your solution is to keep the price in control and let the people use the commodity at the same price they used to?

That's what state governments in India have been doing for years. For 3 continuous years, we were having 6-8 hours power cut per day. Because increasing the price would screw up their electoral chances, they kept the same price even though they didn't have supply to match the needs. People who had money started buying inverter batteries to store electricity for power cuts. This only made the situation worse for people who didn't have it leading to more frequent power cuts.

After opening a new nuclear power plant after lots of protests and the government wasting a big chunk of tax money to buy electricity from outside, we are now having "only" two hours power cut per day.

Nationalising something to reduce prices is just a textbook left wing populist move to fool people into thinking that it's good for them while taking them towards disaster. Basic economics.

Except your entire premise is based on the assumption that it would work here like it worked there. Which is a HUGE assumption.

Denmark and The netherlands are 100% publicly owned as well and they are not suffering that fate."

Where fron have you got the information on the Netherlands. The Dutch have privatized their energy network already a decade ago. NUON is Vattenfall and former Essent is owned by E.ON, what’s left is EDF

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton


"Two things will happen

1) You end up paying a lot of money through taxes

2) You will end up having power cuts. Yes the electricity bills will be less. But there won't be much electricity anyway.

How can you still be drinking the Tory coolade??

It's totally ideological, the French energy supply is nationalised. Their energy bills have gone up 4%, ours is privatised and has gone up 215%!

That says it all for me let alone we are paying EDF/French state for our energy.

One doesn't have to drink tory coolaid to look at facts. When a commodity is so short in supply compared to demand, it's wishful thinking to believe that the prices can be kept low magically. The wholesale costs have increased. France will end up paying that through taxes instead of making public to pay for it. Of course, public will blindly believe that the government somehow magically shielded them.

When supply doesn't match demand, you have two options. Increase the supply or reduce the demand. Increase in supply is the right solution. But it looks like no one has that option right now. Until supply increases, demand has to be controlled. That's exactly what price rises do in a free market economy. It tells people that a commodity is in shortage and people need to be careful using it. If you are letting people use electricity the same way as before, you are only making the situation lot worse. This is just logical reasoning. How exactly is reducing prices to make people use something that it's in high demand going to solve the problem or supply shortage? Giving monetary subsidies and letting people decide for themselves how to use the money is a much better solution.

Now France has done some good things in the past decade. For instance, building many nuclear power plants which provide most of their energy supply is a really good move. This reduces their dependency on fossil fuels. That's something the Tories definitely screwed up. But given the current situation, you either pay high electricity bills for what you use or pay indirectly through taxes. There is no way out of it."

Just to add though...

If nationalised it means the shock impact of what will amount to a 215% increase in utility bills can be minimised with the cost covered by Govt and the debt spread over time with Govt borrowing funded from future taxation. The citizen still ultimately pays but through increased taxation.

Also, the issue is not increased demand (you aren’t saying that) but decreased supply. The supply is being impacted by Russia and war on Ukraine. The shortfall *could* be made up by other suppliers increasing production but instead they are keeping production levels static to push up the price (basically they are war profiteering) which is why companies like BP and Shell have posted historic high profits.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

Add extra year to details above - 5yr payback.

A 2kw system would drastically reduce anyones bills and offers best value and shortest payback as it is supplying its full capacity.

It covers most, but not all usage.

2kw panels £1900

3kw hybrid inverter £1100

5kwh battery £1900

Roofer £1200

Electrician £500

3 yrs payback. Its a long explanation without showing graphs, but a 1kw or 2kw set will provide significant savings and the bulk of domestic need, but not all over the year.

I have a lot of redundancy by over producing, hence car due soon to use it. So, costs more for little gain. Right now, it's producing 4kw, water already hot, battery charged and air conditioning running and still have 1.5kw available. Soon, another 3.2kw panels going up as the EV will eat it, which will remove the redundancy to be of value.

A system providing 10kwh over 24 hours a day is most of the annual power demand for electricity covered.

Example: I was going to install a second 6kw inverter to run the cooker, kettle and a hob. But for the 1kw per day it might save, its 40yrs payback and not worth the investment of £1400.

I use 300watts baseline, 7.2Kwh, this is before lights, washer, dryer and TV. £735/ Yr baseline just to run the house.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"4kw panels £3200

Hybrid Inverter £1400

10kwh battery £2900

Roofer and Scaffold £1000

Electrician £500"

I don't know where you're getting your prices from but a search online leads me to companies selling a 'complete 10kWh solar system' for about £11,000.

Given that my electric bill is less than £1200 per year, I'm not sure how I could save as much as you claim.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

Remember that windfall tax that was levied on oil producers in the last budget.. you know the on that was put in place because of the mega profits that the likes of shell and BP were making… because the price skyrocketed…

Out of interest.. do you know how much of shells £9.5 billion profits fall under that tax….

None!!!!! Not a penny!! Why?? Because it doesn’t kick in until q3…. October!! So all those q2 profits… shareholders dividends!!!

So what I am saying is that a lot of the inadvertent profiteering because of the energy price spike by the likes of centrica has already happened and this government are now playing catch up and doing it piss poorly!

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol


"4kw panels £3200

Hybrid Inverter £1400

10kwh battery £2900

Roofer and Scaffold £1000

Electrician £500

I don't know where you're getting your prices from but a search online leads me to companies selling a 'complete 10kWh solar system' for about £11,000.

Given that my electric bill is less than £1200 per year, I'm not sure how I could save as much as you claim."

You won’t because the prices will keep on going up and keeping ahead of what you are trying to recoup.

Maybe in 10 years there will be a system where you can but by then we will be nuclear with power on demand

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"Maybe in 10 years there will be a system where you can but by then we will be nuclear with power on demand"

Much though I'd love to see it, the idea that we can get a nuclear power station planned and built within 10 years is just fantasy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The question shouldn't be 'why don't we nationalise it should be 'what needs to be done to nationalise' and 'how much is it going to cost'.

The fact these questions are not asked or dismissed as 'too expensive' tells you everything. Nothing will change as too many powerful people at the top have interests in keeping things as they are.

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol


"Maybe in 10 years there will be a system where you can but by then we will be nuclear with power on demand

Much though I'd love to see it, the idea that we can get a nuclear power station planned and built within 10 years is just fantasy."

But they could if they really wanted to, or they could be building multiple SMR’s all over the country simultaneously

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol

*

I might add that they probably will not do anything as forward thinking

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge


"4kw panels £3200

Hybrid Inverter £1400

10kwh battery £2900

Roofer and Scaffold £1000

Electrician £500

I don't know where you're getting your prices from but a search online leads me to companies selling a 'complete 10kWh solar system' for about £11,000.

Given that my electric bill is less than £1200 per year, I'm not sure how I could save as much as you claim."

How much gas do you use per year?

I've offset much of the heating via Solar running Air Conditioning and portable oil heaters hidden in main rooms. Surplus Solar is heating Hot Water therefore no gas input for baths and showers.

Gas is down from 14,000kwh per year to 3,000. I use a lot of electricity for heating, air conditioning and hot water.

Without seeing actual usage, it's impossible to size a system over a forum. As for price increases, shopping around, there is little change.

What rate you on for electricity? Contract or capped? £1200 based on current cap or October 70% rate?

System size needs scaling to your needs. If its myth, then it's strange my bills are so low for both gas and electric.

Once installed, it will keep paying for 25yrs. Otherwise, obviously it isn't for you.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"4kw panels £3200

Hybrid Inverter £1400

10kwh battery £2900

Roofer and Scaffold £1000

Electrician £500"


"I don't know where you're getting your prices from but a search online leads me to companies selling a 'complete 10kWh solar system' for about £11,000.

Given that my electric bill is less than £1200 per year, I'm not sure how I could save as much as you claim."


"How much gas do you use per year?

I've offset much of the heating via Solar running Air Conditioning and portable oil heaters hidden in main rooms."

I don't see heat pumps and oil heaters listed in the equipment above. Would that be even more expense to cut down on gas?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

It's amazing some people still seem happy with being ripped off by profiteering energy companies when millions are likely soon gonna be unable to pay their bills.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"@lost..

"When supply doesn't match demand, you have two options. Increase the supply or reduce the demand. Increase in supply is the right solution. But it looks like no one has that option right now."

There is a third option which is looking highly likely, to go without..

Below is details of a speech Tony Blair made in 2006. READ his words CAREFULLY. "Energy Security", it makes me want to crap!!

What the hell did he, Brown, Cameron and Clegg, May and Johnson do in the light of this.

Tony Blair, one of the longest standing Prime Ministers did absolutely nothing. Kicking nuclear down the road, no investment in Wind, Solar or Tidal.

Yes, Johnson has done very slightly better in setting up wind on a footing, but as we see right now and will become more obvious in Winter - it's too little, too late.

They saw it coming, and have done nothing. Now pushing a fallacy of Heat Pumps that switch energy from gas to electricity, pushing electric vehicles all creating significant extra demand on the Grid and ultimately, gas supply.

What good is an EV if you can't charge it?

Government failures right through from Labour to Conservative and they'll all have blood on their hands when people start freezing and starving to death this winter.

They've led us up the garden path to disaster.

------

In his speech last night Mr Blair said: "Essentially, the twin pressures of climate change and energy security are raising energy policy to the top of the agenda in the UK and around the world.

Effectively pre-empting the outcome of the government's energy review due to be published in July, Mr Blair, in a speech to the CBI, said the issue of a new generation of stations was back on the agenda with a vengeance, alongside a big push on renewables and a step change in energy efficiency.

"The facts are stark. By 2025, if current policy is unchanged there will be a dramatic gap on our targets to reduce CO2 emissions, we will become heavily dependent on gas and at the same time move from being 80% to 90% self-reliant in gas to 80% to 90% dependent on foreign imports, mostly from the Middle East, and Africa and Russia.

"These facts put the replacement of nuclear power stations, a big push on renewables and a step change on energy efficiency, engaging both business and consumers, back on the agenda with a vengeance.

If we don't take these long-term decisions now we will be committing a serious dereliction of our duty to the future of this country."

"

I agree with all you say. Successive governments have been walking into a disaster. Depending on a country like Russia for basic needs was always going to be risky. It's just that given that we are already in this situation, it's really hard to come out of it without price rises.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge


"4kw panels £3200

Hybrid Inverter £1400

10kwh battery £2900

Roofer and Scaffold £1000

Electrician £500

I don't know where you're getting your prices from but a search online leads me to companies selling a 'complete 10kWh solar system' for about £11,000.

Given that my electric bill is less than £1200 per year, I'm not sure how I could save as much as you claim.

How much gas do you use per year?

I've offset much of the heating via Solar running Air Conditioning and portable oil heaters hidden in main rooms.

I don't see heat pumps and oil heaters listed in the equipment above. Would that be even more expense to cut down on gas?"

3x £25 oil heaters.. 2x £350 Air Conditioners. Hardly bank breaking against the next 10 years savings.

Worth every penny today, 14kwh dumped into cooling. 160kwh produced and used this week.

Just have to decide what you want, spend to save long term or keep throwing money into a black hole.

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By *iberatedduoCouple
over a year ago

Ashbourne

When put into perspective it was our grandparents who knew what it was like to be truly poor. Those who finding it hard should be thankful they didn’t have to live through the 1930’s and 1940’s in the era of make do and mend. I know people are going to say times have moved on since then however as a society I do feel we expect to much at times. I’m on a low income and with a few adjustments I can withstand price increases. I make sure we only consume what is needed for example and walk where I can instead of taking the car. These are just a couple of examples but I could do a whole thread on ways to save money.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 18/08/22 13:54:45]

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