FabSwingers.com forum: Dover jams

By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Are the French up to their old tricks ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I thought this was about the soundtrack from Ben Dover’s Spicy Girls.

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

Damn it thought this was on damson jam, most disappointed

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?"

Of course, they are French. It's the law.

As are the Brits who all decide to head to the same pinch point at the same Time and then moan about it. Doh?

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?"

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?"

Does it take longer to check a non eu passport than an EU passport?

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By *ichaelangelaCouple
over a year ago

notts

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?"

They didn’t check our passports in ww2. Hope they don’t need our help again

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

Does it take longer to check a non eu passport than an EU passport? "

In my experience yes.

There's more scrutiny.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

They didn’t check our passports in ww2. Hope they don’t need our help again

Goodness me!

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By *idnight RamblerMan
over a year ago

Pershore

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?"

That happens at borders all over the world, and the wait isn't 5 hours. It's taken the French 6 years to install a few extra passport booths? Yet some think they should be our economic partners of first choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

The French may not have manned them.

Looks like everyone has had to cough up to pay for the checks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Another great benefit of Brexit....

Blaming the French is really poor form.

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By *9 kisses.Man
over a year ago

clacton on sea

They are quick to check the brits going over there but not checking and stopping the immigrants coming over

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

"They are quick to check the brits going over there but not checking and stopping the immigrants coming over "

..........................

Why should they? I think that's our job.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's France's fault that Britain decided to leave the EU.

Thanks a lot, France.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's France's fault that Britain decided to leave the EU.

Thanks a lot, France."

*honque honque*

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They are quick to check the brits going over there but not checking and stopping the immigrants coming over "

Erm, we literally wanted the French to to take more time checking us.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Fab forums will no doubt be scrutinised by our politicians looking for sound and reasoned guidance on the way forward later.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hate Britain at its best... it's never our fault but everyone else in the world.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

Does it take longer to check a non eu passport than an EU passport?

In my experience yes.

There's more scrutiny. "

Why though? I mean genuine question. Passports are checked for what purpose? Therefore it should take exactly the same amount of time to check any passport. Wherever it may be from.

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By *batMan
over a year ago

Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales)

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

Does it take longer to check a non eu passport than an EU passport? "

Yes.

Gbat

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By *batMan
over a year ago

Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales)

"It's France's fault that Britain decided to leave the EU.

Thanks a lot, France."

Mon dieu!

Gbat

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

Does it take longer to check a non eu passport than an EU passport?

In my experience yes.

There's more scrutiny.

Why though? I mean genuine question. Passports are checked for what purpose? Therefore it should take exactly the same amount of time to check any passport. Wherever it may be from. "

................................

Did we need to show passports at all pre Brexit?

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By *batMan
over a year ago

Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales)

"Does it take longer to check a non eu passport than an EU passport?

In my experience yes.

There's more scrutiny.

Why though? I mean genuine question. Passports are checked for what purpose? Therefore it should take exactly the same amount of time to check any passport. Wherever it may be from. "

When the UK was a part of the EU, there was freedom of movement. Now there isn't and most people are restricted to 90 days in 180. You also have to prove you have the means to support yourself, somewhere to stay and the means of getting home.

Previously, they just needed to check that you were an EU citizen.

Now they have to check how many days you've used already. They may also check what funds you have and where you are going. There may also be other checks on criminal intel systems.

That's why it takes longer.

Gbat

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

Does it take longer to check a non eu passport than an EU passport?

In my experience yes.

There's more scrutiny.

Why though? I mean genuine question. Passports are checked for what purpose? Therefore it should take exactly the same amount of time to check any passport. Wherever it may be from. "
to look at the stamps to see how much time you have spent in the EU recently.

Before brexit you just need to see it was a UK passport. Didn't matter how long you'd been in France previously.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

Does it take longer to check a non eu passport than an EU passport?

In my experience yes.

There's more scrutiny.

Why though? I mean genuine question. Passports are checked for what purpose? Therefore it should take exactly the same amount of time to check any passport. Wherever it may be from. to look at the stamps to see how much time you have spent in the EU recently.

Before brexit you just need to see it was a UK passport. Didn't matter how long you'd been in France previously. "

They don't need to look at anything. Just scan in and the screen tells them.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

The French may not have manned them.

Looks like everyone has had to cough up to pay for the checks.

Yes, the port of Dover authorities installed them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They are quick to check the brits going over there but not checking and stopping the immigrants coming over "

I guess you voted for Brexit. Well done this is part of what you voted for.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

Does it take longer to check a non eu passport than an EU passport?

In my experience yes.

There's more scrutiny.

Why though? I mean genuine question. Passports are checked for what purpose? Therefore it should take exactly the same amount of time to check any passport. Wherever it may be from. "

I don't really know. All I know is that every time I travelled outside of the eu when we were members my passport was subject to greater scrutiny than the nationals.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Another great benefit of Brexit....

Blaming the French is really poor form. "

But entirely predictable, and it's much easier than acceptance of the reality that they voted for a complete con..

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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago

carrbrook stalybridge

brexiteers getting angry about getting what they voted for .....priceless

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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago

Chelmsford

What's going on here guys?

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)

"What's going on here guys?"

See the other thread on this topic in this forum...

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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago

Chelmsford

People are saying things here...

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)

"People are saying things here..."

then you asked what was going on, so I pointed you to the 145 reply thread discussing what is going on...

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By *batMan
over a year ago

Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales)

"They don't need to look at anything. Just scan in and the screen tells them. "

Not quite yet. ETIAS comes online May 2023.

Details here ....

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/etias/#what-is-etias

At the moment, it's only a partly automated system.

Gbat

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan
over a year ago

here

"People are saying things here..."

…. and it’s definitely all dover the news

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By *oolpinstripeMan
over a year ago

Kildare

Why don’t you just ‘take control of the situation’ and simply go on your holidays like you used to...

I mean, how hard can it be, now that you are more in charge then before.

I’ve just returned from a nice driving holiday in France... absolutely no delays or problems what so ever.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

Deja Vu

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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Send the army in...then sorted

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"People are saying things here...

…. and it’s definitely all dover the news

Puntastic

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"brexiteers getting angry about getting what they voted for .....priceless "

Only brexiteers are queueing.? Priceless

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan
over a year ago

here

"People are saying things here...

…. and it’s definitely all dover the news

Puntastic"

Definitely border line though

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Send the army in...then sorted "

Don't give ideas to writers for the Mail.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

"Send the army in...then sorted "

That would be invading France.

War with France wasn't on the side of the big red bus.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Send the army in...then sorted

That would be invading France.

War with France wasn't on the side of the big red bus."

It'll be on the next bus. Wait and see...

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By *rLibertineMan
over a year ago

North Suffolk

loving all the excuses…. - anything but brexit

who would have thought ending free movement equals longer border checks?

(possibly the same people who wonder why all of a sudden our airlines/airports can’t hire enough staff!)??

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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago

carrbrook stalybridge

You won deal with it !

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By *idnight RamblerMan
over a year ago

Pershore

So it takes France 6 years to adjust to new passport rules (6 plywood desks?) Yet they are our economic partners of first choice for some? Perverse!

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By *heRazorsEdgeMan
over a year ago

Wales/ All over UK

"So it takes France 6 years to adjust to new passport rules (6 plywood desks?) Yet they are our economic partners of first choice for some? Perverse! "

Actually I think you’ll find it’s us that’s taken 6 years to get used to the fact that we’re not part of the EU any more, so therefore don’t get any of the benefits we had when we were.

Because we’re no longer EU members we now have to accept that we are subject to stricter border controls…..

I thought all those Brexitty types loved the idea of a country being able to control its own borders?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So it takes France 6 years to adjust to new passport rules (6 plywood desks?) Yet they are our economic partners of first choice for some? Perverse!

Actually I think you’ll find it’s us that’s taken 6 years to get used to the fact that we’re not part of the EU any more, so therefore don’t get any of the benefits we had when we were.

Because we’re no longer EU members we now have to accept that we are subject to stricter border controls…..

I thought all those Brexitty types loved the idea of a country being able to control its own borders?"

Bang on!, we’ve had the time to realise this

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So it takes France 6 years to adjust to new passport rules (6 plywood desks?) Yet they are our economic partners of first choice for some? Perverse! "

Who provided these 6 plywood desks?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?"

I prefer strawberry jam, I will let you into a secret Tom, the French dont like you

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By *V-AliceTV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?"

Are all the people who voted for Brexit up to their usual fucking whining about the results of getting what they wanted?

Now, I know that none of them think this has anything to do with Brexit; but, even if they were right - the French, much to the annoyance of the English, can do whatever they like.

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By *ayturners turn hayMan
over a year ago

Wellingborugh

The explanation supplied by Tony Smith a former director of the UK border force is probably more than sufficient.

EU border agencies , like us , have authorities to reduce certain checks in the wake or significant operational pressure upon the control , should they choose to do so. Therefore the argument that these delays would never have happened if the UK had remained in the EU does not stand up to scrutiny.

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By *batMan
over a year ago

Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales)

"The explanation supplied by Tony Smith a former director of the UK border force is probably more than sufficient.

What’s the current threat level re terrorism?

Why would France reduce checks on its border just because some people want to go on holidays more quickly?

Can reduce checks and should reduce checks are very different things. What’s Tony Smith’s political agenda here?

Gbat

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By *heRazorsEdgeMan
over a year ago

Wales/ All over UK

"The explanation supplied by Tony Smith a former director of the UK border force is probably more than sufficient.

That’s in relation to EU member states checking non EU citizens though, as checks on EU citizens are already minimal (freedom of movement and all that)… we are no longer EU citizens, so are subject to increased checks which would NOT have applied if we were still in the EU.

Yes, France could reduce the amount of checks on non EU if they wanted to… but they don’t have to at all… If we were still EU members, checks would be at a minimum already

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

"The explanation supplied by Tony Smith a former director of the UK border force is probably more than sufficient.

Lolz.

If people believe this kind of nonsensical rhubarb, no wonder it was so easy to con so many of you into voting leave.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"The explanation supplied by Tony Smith a former director of the UK border force is probably more than sufficient.

Don't come here with facts

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By *ayturners turn hayMan
over a year ago

Wellingborugh

It seems that some posters might need to do a little more research. The UK was never in the Schengen area , so has always operates a border with France for travel purposes. The UK has a bi lateral agreement with the French governing passport checks at Dover and Calais. . The problems have nothing to do with Brexit. Doug Bannister , Dovers chief executive has confirmed this.

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By *ebjonnsonMan
over a year ago

Maldon

Do Swiss or Norwegians have to show passports when entering EU countries?

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By *eachcplCouple
over a year ago

blackpool/preston/normandy france

For those who voted to leave this is your reality. Don't suppose you thought about it when you put your X on the voting paper. You have created the problem so now live with the consequences

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The explanation supplied by Tony Smith a former director of the UK border force is probably more than sufficient.

So it’s the governments fault for not hiring enough people to take care of our borders? And not planning properly for any changes they knew what was about to happen.

It’s true! our government are utterly useless when it comes to foresight.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"The explanation supplied by Tony Smith a former director of the UK border force is probably more than sufficient.

How many times do you need to be told?

We are now outside of the EU, outside of the Single Market and outside of the Customs Union. As individuals, we are not allowed to spend any more than 90 days in 180 in the EU. Our passports must now be stamped so that any border official in any other EU country can see at a glance if we are travelling in accordance with the rules.

Secondly, pets that are travelling in cars to holiday homes in France now have to have pet passports which also have to be checked.

Thirdly, the French border is by mutual agreement in Dover, as the U.K. border is in Calais. The French offered to supply more border officials in Dover but the U.K. Government bailies at the £33 million bill to expand the French border post and so declined.

Fourth, many people travelling through Dover and Calais are going to holiday homes, friends homes in the EU. We should be grateful that the French border officials are not adhering fully to the requirement to check that every traveller has: a) the funds to last the duration of their travel, b) proof of accommodation or attestation d’Accueil c) proof of return travel that is in accordance with their time remaining in the EU.

The quote that you posted has nothing whatsoever to do with the issues at hand. Brexit in the form that this Government chose is wholly responsible for what is happening in Dover. We (Brexiters actually) knew what being a third country meant and this is apparently what was wanted.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"Do Swiss or Norwegians have to show passports when entering EU countries? "

They will be treated as we once were. We had the options of the Norweigan model, or the Swiss model - but Brexiters declined those options in favour of what we have now - chaos.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"It seems that some posters might need to do a little more research. The UK was never in the Schengen area , so has always operates a border with France for travel purposes. The UK has a bi lateral agreement with the French governing passport checks at Dover and Calais. . The problems have nothing to do with Brexit. Doug Bannister , Dovers chief executive has confirmed this. "

Why do constantly try to defend the indefensible?

You even post stuff that completely refutes the argument that you are trying to support.

What you have said in the post above is true. The French border is in Dover and the U.K. Government rejected a French offer to extend it because it would have cost £33 million. We have the problems that we have because the French border cannot cope with even the most elementary of post Brexit requirements - to check and stamp passports.

What will happen if/when the French start adhering fully to EU immigration requirements?

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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Why do constantly try to defend the indefensible?

You even post stuff that completely refutes the argument that you are trying to support.

What will happen if/when the French start adhering fully to EU immigration requirements? "

With the climate change and better summers then is it time for English families to rediscover the traditional holiday locations. Torquay is actually called the English Riviera and it's cuisine is fantastic. Local economies would boom.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"So it takes France 6 years to adjust to new passport rules (6 plywood desks?) Yet they are our economic partners of first choice for some? Perverse! "

Would you expect to have an economic partnership with a country thousands of miles further away than ones neighbours?

How are 'we' doing on the NI protocol by the way?

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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago

Chelmsford

This is not a thread on Brexit. It's on the jams at Dover. If they sent in the army or even the French Foreign legion then the problem would be solved in 48 hours.

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By *allySlinkyWoman
over a year ago

Leeds

"This is not a thread on Brexit. It's on the jams at Dover. If they sent in the army or even the French Foreign legion then the problem would be solved in 48 hours. "

I thought you had already sent the army to Heathrow to be baggage handlers

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

Why do constantly try to defend the indefensible?

You even post stuff that completely refutes the argument that you are trying to support.

What will happen if/when the French start adhering fully to EU immigration requirements?

...............................

Ahhhh so Brexit means less choice, not more. Who would have guessed.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"This is not a thread on Brexit. It's on the jams at Dover. If they sent in the army or even the French Foreign legion then the problem would be solved in 48 hours. "

And that first sentence speaks volumes Tom..

Whilst there would have undoubtedly have been higher numbers using that route post the pandemic and the mess that is the airport's at present (which is part due to brexit also) this is what the country chose..

Anyone now denying that was what they voted for is simply saying I didn't know what I voted for..

We chose this way, to blame the French for taking control of their part of the EU border when the banal cliche of 'taking back control ' is still trotted out and taken as gospel by many who then moan about it is beyond satire..

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"This is not a thread on Brexit. It's on the jams at Dover. If they sent in the army or even the French Foreign legion then the problem would be solved in 48 hours.

I thought you had already sent the army to Heathrow to be baggage handlers"

Yeah but it only takes them 48 hours... So that's monday and Tuesday. They can move onto Dover Wednesday and thursday

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

"This is not a thread on Brexit. It's on the jams at Dover. If they sent in the army or even the French Foreign legion then the problem would be solved in 48 hours.

I thought you had already sent the army to Heathrow to be baggage handlers

Yeah but it only takes them 48 hours... So that's monday and Tuesday. They can move onto Dover Wednesday and thursday"

if the governments plan to rip up the NI protocol goes pear shaped, they'll be hiding behind a garden wall in ulster shitting their pants on friday saturday and sunday, just like the old days.

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By *allySlinkyWoman
over a year ago

Leeds

Yeah but it only takes them 48 hours... So that's monday and Tuesday. They can move onto Dover Wednesday and thursday"

Then Friday Saturday they can clear the NHS backlog

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

Yeah but it only takes them 48 hours... So that's monday and Tuesday. They can move onto Dover Wednesday and thursday

Then Friday Saturday they can clear the NHS backlog"

Great! I'll have surgery performed by someone from the catering core

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By *inkywife1981Couple
over a year ago

A town near you

People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

Yeah but it only takes them 48 hours... So that's monday and Tuesday. They can move onto Dover Wednesday and thursday

Then Friday Saturday they can clear the NHS backlog"

Sounds like a plan. Then next week they can sort out fab time wasters and all those pesky single guys.

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

that's because of the CTA that's been in force for a century

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By *allySlinkyWoman
over a year ago

Leeds

Yeah but it only takes them 48 hours... So that's monday and Tuesday. They can move onto Dover Wednesday and thursday

Then Friday Saturday they can clear the NHS backlog

Sounds like a plan. Then next week they can sort out fab time wasters and all those pesky single guys. "

Then move on to Climate Change

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By *ayturners turn hayMan
over a year ago

Wellingborugh

"The explanation supplied by Tony Smith a former director of the UK border force is probably more than sufficient.

How many times do you need to be told?

Secondly, pets that are travelling in cars to holiday homes in France now have to have pet passports which also have to be checked.

What will happen at the border if the French do actually start implementing every single check that is required? They are within their rights to do so and we can’t complain because this is what we signed up for."
. Interesting as your analysis is people are entitled to consider different opinions and scenarios. The former Head of Border force Tony Smith and Doug Bannister Dovers chief executive both have years of experience behind then and know the system and procedures inside out. In the circumstances people are entitled to accept their explanations.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either"

Genuine question… did these problems exist before brexit?

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either

Genuine question… did these problems exist before brexit? "

No I guess we never had travel chaos every July. No air traffic Control strikes, no ferry blockades, no hgv blockades, no passport Control work to rule... There's never been any delays at all in July heading to France.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

@hay

As you know, British citizens are now “third country nationals” and as such they are subject to the full rigour of the Schengen Borders code. That means officers can ask questions as to place of residence, purpose and duration of stay, address, travel plans and so on, as well as stamping passports. This is on top of the standard passport check against electronic watch lists, which was always in place.

So Brexit has caused this. The article is saying that France could choose to reduce these checks. But no brexit, no additional checks, no problem to solve. We have set our house in fire and are blaming the French for only sending one fire engine.

And as you also know, this is just the start.

The EU intends to introduce an “entry / exit” system (EES), which will require all “third country nationals” to submit biometrics (including finger scans) to be checked routinely when crossing the bloc's external border. This raises very significant policy and operational issues for the border agencies operating on both sides of the Channel, which could dwarf the problems we have seen in recent days and bring this route close to standstill.

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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago

Chelmsford

The last time Tom looked,England was supposed to be a democratic country. In a sense we mostly accept democracy and the outcomes of voting in a process. In a sense we all voted for Brexit because we all signed up to the process. Now Tom is not one of these voting types but if you sign up to vote then please be bound by the result.

The bitterness in some remains five years on. Tom fears that some will take bitterness to the grave. Lighten up peoples and love your fellow man once again despite how they voted.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either"

Oh come on…

I wish Brits could at least try to educate themselves - then we might just live in a country that votes for the right things instead of voting for things that sound right.

1) The Common Travel Area supersedes EU jurisdiction with regards to immigration status. The Irish border is in Ireland. In Dover, the French border is in Dover and all Brits are required to adhere to EU immigration laws of which only cursory implementation is currently happening. The U.K. Government declined a French request to increase the size of the French border as it would have cost £33 million. The problems in Dover are absolutely, irrefutably and totally because of the Brexit that this Government negotiated.

2) Had you simply googled “Norway and EU” (or something similar) you would have quickly and easily discovered that Norway is part of the EU Single Market by virtue of its membership to to the EEA and subsequently EFTA. “The Norway Model” was a possibility for the U.K. post-Brexit, but the Conservative Brexit ultra’s decided that making lives more difficult for their own companies, traders and travellers was a better option because we are a significantly bigger and better country than Norway.

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either

Genuine question… did these problems exist before brexit? "

in my memory of crossing to europe regularly for work in the performing arts over 4 decades, the last time i remember that it was remotely like this, other than the odd strike or agr-protest, was prior to to 1992-3.

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By *V-AliceTV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either

Genuine question… did these problems exist before brexit?

Well, if all that happened anyway, when the UK was in the EU, why moan about it so much now?

Surely, if it's been like this for years already, it's tradition; and, the mother of all things that the British love so much - queuing and fucking moaning.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either"
why can't it be both?

If checks went from a minute to half an hour, but there was only one car crossing every hour at Holyhead, your not get a delay.

(Made up example to illustrate why it's both)

Norway is Schengen irrc.

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By *V-AliceTV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

"The last time Tom looked,England was supposed to be a democratic country. In a sense we mostly accept democracy and the outcomes of voting in a process. In a sense we all voted for Brexit because we all signed up to the process. Now Tom is not one of these voting types but if you sign up to vote then please be bound by the result.

The bitterness in some remains five years on. Tom fears that some will take bitterness to the grave. Lighten up peoples and love your fellow man once again despite how they voted."

It's supposed to be - but it isn't. Neither is the UK, as a whole. FPTP takes care of that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The bitterness in some remains five years on. Tom fears that some will take bitterness to the grave. Lighten up peoples and love your fellow man once again despite how they voted."

I agree Tom. We knew we were voting for queues. I don't know why anyone has even started a thread on this. It's like an apple complaining about gravity.

Take a picnic folks. Share it with your fellow travellers. Don't ask them how they voted. Be nice to the people checking your passport.

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By *V-AliceTV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

"This is not a thread on Brexit. It's on the jams at Dover. If they sent in the army or even the French Foreign legion then the problem would be solved in 48 hours. "

Took the army 20 years to fix the problem of Afghanistan - and they failed to do so.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"The explanation supplied by Tony Smith a former director of the UK border force is probably more than sufficient.

How many times do you need to be told?

Secondly, pets that are travelling in cars to holiday homes in France now have to have pet passports which also have to be checked.

What will happen at the border if the French do actually start implementing every single check that is required? They are within their rights to do so and we can’t complain because this is what we signed up for.. Interesting as your analysis is people are entitled to consider different opinions and scenarios. The former Head of Border force Tony Smith and Doug Bannister Dovers chief executive both have years of experience behind then and know the system and procedures inside out. In the circumstances people are entitled to accept their explanations. "

Except they didn’t provide explanations did they? They just said that the French “could” abandon checks if they wanted to. No shit…

I suppose next time I am waiting four hours in an immigration queue at Philadelphia airport I should tell the American immigration Officer that he could just abandon his checks to get rid of the queue.

Why don’t you just own the situation?

This is how things are going to be, going forwards unless the U.K. reaches some kind of new political agreement with the EU.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"British citizens are now “third country nationals” and as such they are subject to the full rigour of the Schengen Borders code."

We've always been subject to the Schengen Borders code, since we were never a signatory to the Schengen agreement. Nothing has changed there.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

"This is not a thread on Brexit. It's on the jams at Dover. If they sent in the army or even the French Foreign legion then the problem would be solved in 48 hours. "

What do you want the army to do exactly?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"British citizens are now “third country nationals” and as such they are subject to the full rigour of the Schengen Borders code.

We've always been subject to the Schengen Borders code, since we were never a signatory to the Schengen agreement. Nothing has changed there."
just to be clear, you are arguing with Hays expert source, not me. I can only assume that the checks are different between EU and Schengen, and third country and Schengen.

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

"This is not a thread on Brexit. It's on the jams at Dover. If they sent in the army or even the French Foreign legion then the problem would be solved in 48 hours.

What do you want the army to do exactly?"

...........................

Fix bayonets Pike!

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"British citizens are now “third country nationals” and as such they are subject to the full rigour of the Schengen Borders code."

"We've always been subject to the Schengen Borders code, since we were never a signatory to the Schengen agreement. Nothing has changed there."

"just to be clear, you are arguing with Hays expert source, not me. I can only assume that the checks are different between EU and Schengen, and third country and Schengen. "

I've just checked this thread, and the only time I see Hay mentioning Schengen was when he stated that the UK was never a part of it. I don't see any reference to it in his explanation of his chosen expert.

So, sadly, it looks like I am arguing with you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either

Genuine question… did these problems exist before brexit?

So why are people complaining about then? This is what it’s always been like. Get on with it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"British citizens are now “third country nationals” and as such they are subject to the full rigour of the Schengen Borders code.

We've always been subject to the Schengen Borders code, since we were never a signatory to the Schengen agreement. Nothing has changed there.

just to be clear, you are arguing with Hays expert source, not me. I can only assume that the checks are different between EU and Schengen, and third country and Schengen.

So, sadly, it looks like I am arguing with you."
ah, let me be clear. Both Hay and I are using the telegraph and the border expert as our source of information. I am using a different part of the article tho.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either

Genuine question… did these problems exist before brexit?

That’s what I thought. I’m not clued up on the ins and outs or travel between England and France but it’s fairly obvious what has changed. People just don’t want to accept it.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"@hay

And as you also know, this is just the start.

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either

Genuine question… did these problems exist before brexit?

That’s what I thought. I’m not clued up on the ins and outs or travel between England and France but it’s fairly obvious what has changed. People just don’t want to accept it."

i could begin to describe the complexities of touring involving crossing internal borders in europe with musicians, performers and equipment prior to the maastricht treaty but alas fab doesn't have the server space.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"ah, let me be clear. Both Hay and I are using the telegraph and the border expert as our source of information. I am using a different part of the article tho. "

Now it makes sense.. Thanks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"@hay

And as you also know, this is just the start.

Out of interest. Borders have two sides. In the situation youve described above is it a fact that both France and UK will need to change border controls, and one might imagine procedures and resources applied to implement those controls.? "
I'd agree borders have two sides (I hope we have extra passport checkers ready for later in the month!)

And I'd agree with changes one would hope new resources and procedures will be in place.

However... While past performance isn't always a prediction for the future ....

The combined track record isn't good here. After all, isn't today's delays due to a small change being mishandled

(And before we go back to the French, if you were in charge of Dover, would you a) have installed the extra booths weeks if not months back to test them out or b) get them in the Thursday before the busiest Friday)

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By *UNCHBOXMan
over a year ago

folkestone

As someone who actually lives in the area directly effected, we have had similar problems before Brexit. Frankly we are sick of having to put up with having our main Motorway used as a giant lorry park. Not only does it effect Dover and Folkestone, it also effects Maidstone,Ashford, Hythe and all the villages along the detour routes along the A20.

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

" I'd agree borders have two sides (I hope we have extra passport checkers ready for later in the month!)

And I'd agree with changes one would hope new resources and procedures will be in place.

However... While past performance isn't always a prediction for the future ....

The combined track record isn't good here. After all, isn't today's delays due to a small change being mishandled

the border control infrastructure on the calais side of the border is quadruple that of the dover side. remains to be seen if britian staffs it fully or not, or wether they perform all checks required. it may be that they just wave any old tom, dick and harry through without checks just to prevent queues, as several leading brextremists have demanded.

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

"As someone who actually lives in the area directly effected, we have had similar problems before Brexit. Frankly we are sick of having to put up with having our main Motorway used as a giant lorry park. Not only does it effect Dover and Folkestone, it also effects Maidstone,Ashford, Hythe and all the villages along the detour routes along the A20.

i have been reliably informed by leading brextremists that this kind of talk is just project fear and can safely be ignored.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"
Dover hadn't been fit for purpose for a long time now. Being part of the EU was the thread that helped keep the charade that we had a port suitable for current times. As I understand it, that's why we are reluctant to start checking imports properly too. It will expose how provincial our customs is in this new global world.

It must suck being that area. Bet it fucks up just popping out and everything.

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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

The financial pain of Brexit just continues to grow and it will continue to put U.K. business at a financial disadvantage compared to other countries . The gap will by default get larger year on year .

The government have a plan to cope . Lower wages and less workers rights so it’s all going to be fine.

The Times had an interesting article on the bonfire of regulations . Be careful what you wish for .

Singapore offshore her we come. Well I don’t because I’m sorted but we are leaving our children the mother of all shit shows .

As for Dover. The majority there voted for this mess so I feel the pain of those who didn’t but if you voted leave then sorry but you own this.

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

and our deputy prime minister famously thought that dover was completely unimportant to the country.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The financial pain of Brexit just continues to grow and it will continue to put U.K. business at a financial disadvantage compared to other countries . The gap will by default get larger year on year .

The government have a plan to cope . Lower wages and less workers rights so it’s all going to be fine.

The Times had an interesting article on the bonfire of regulations . Be careful what you wish for .

Singapore offshore her we come. Well I don’t because I’m sorted but we are leaving our children the mother of all shit shows .

As for Dover. The majority there voted for this mess so I feel the pain of those who didn’t but if you voted leave then sorry but you own this. "
I disagree that all this leads to Singapore.

Singapore thrives due to a highly protective government, years of planning, being a regulatory safe space compared to its neighbours... And a huge reliance on cheap foreign labour.

It also has ports that work !

We are doing everything we can to not be Singapore.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"People here getting digs in about brexit?

All these queues at Dover but no issues at Holyhead or Liverpool if getting the ferry to Ireland, so I suggest this is more about volume of traffic.

How don't Norwegians manage in Europe given they ain't in the EU either

Genuine question… did these problems exist before brexit?

All valid reasons for delays but none of them are applicable to the situation now, fingers crossed they don't happen..

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan
over a year ago

here

The government have a plan to cope . Lower wages and less workers rights so it’s all going to be fine.

The Times had an interesting article on the bonfire of regulations . Be careful what you wish for .

Singapore offshore her we come. Well I don’t because I’m sorted but we are leaving our children the mother of all shit shows .

As for Dover. The majority there voted for this mess so I feel the pain of those who didn’t but if you voted leave then sorry but you own this. I disagree that all this leads to Singapore.

Singapore thrives due to a highly protective government, years of planning, being a regulatory safe space compared to its neighbours... And a huge reliance on cheap foreign labour.

It also has ports that work !

We are doing everything we can to not be Singapore. "

Singapore may appear to be the perfect existence, however this comes at a price. Recent events may suggest that uk society is not that comfortable with big government?

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

I may have missed it. But wasn't brexit done through democratic process years ago? Dont we all just need to get on with it now rather than the strange schadenfreude that some (many on here) who don't seem to accept the outcome of that particular democratic process... Very childish and strange attitude for some folks. Still seems to provide lots of pleasure holding up the "you voted for it so you got to live with it card" presumably those who didn't vote for it don't have to live with it by some magical process?

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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

The government have a plan to cope . Lower wages and less workers rights so it’s all going to be fine.

The Times had an interesting article on the bonfire of regulations . Be careful what you wish for .

Singapore offshore her we come. Well I don’t because I’m sorted but we are leaving our children the mother of all shit shows .

As for Dover. The majority there voted for this mess so I feel the pain of those who didn’t but if you voted leave then sorry but you own this. I disagree that all this leads to Singapore.

Singapore thrives due to a highly protective government, years of planning, being a regulatory safe space compared to its neighbours... And a huge reliance on cheap foreign labour.

It also has ports that work !

We are doing everything we can to not be Singapore. "

The government are doing everything they can to deregulate including workers rights similar to Singapore.

Boris when he came to office held Singapore as an example of success . It is for the top 10% of the population . Ask how the rest of the indigenous population are doing on their existence wages . Remember we’re looking to open a lot more visas for the likes of India.

Dover worked before Brexit apart from strikes etc . I exported hundreds of loads a week through regularly without issue. If I’m honest I was amazed they coped due to the topography involved.

You see not only do our producers have extra costs due to customs and delays. But hauliers will now be charging us more or in fact foreign based hauliers declining cargoes into the U.K. which will drive up costs for both U.K. importers , producers and U.K. consumers .

Still blue passports and all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I may have missed it. But wasn't brexit done through democratic process years ago? Dont we all just need to get on with it now rather than the strange schadenfreude that some (many on here) who don't seem to accept the outcome of that particular democratic process... Very childish and strange attitude for some folks. Still seems to provide lots of pleasure holding up the "you voted for it so you got to live with it card" presumably those who didn't vote for it don't have to live with it by some magical process? "

63% of Scotland didn't vote for it but we still got landed with it. Yes we are living with it, but we are also still waiting to see what benefits Brexit has brought...

It would be nice if someone could list them for us....

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

...............................

Acceptance of the decision doesn't necessarily mean we spend the rest of our lives in denial about the negative consequences of it.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

I mean, the people who voted for brexit were told what would happen, but they believed the "it's project fear" narrative. What happens next time there's a referendum to shoot ourselves in the foot or not? Same again? Maybe as a country, we can learn from the brexit clusterfuck that we need a population that can critically think about the information they receive. Probably not, but it's worth aspiring to.

Many people still think brexit is a great. How are we supposed to move forward when people are still utterly confused and bamboozled into thinking it was a good idea to leave the EU.

Plus generally, I don't think it's a good idea for people to be shut down and not be encouraged to speak up. Especially when people are speaking up against the establishment. This is an essential ingredient to democracy. (As is the concept of free and fair votes, which the referendum was neither).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Acceptance of the decision doesn't necessarily mean we spend the rest of our lives in denial about the negative consequences of it. "

Correct

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?"

The majority didn't vote this government in... 40% did.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?

The majority didn't vote this government in... 40% did."

Sorry I worded it incorrectly but the point still stands.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Fully accepted the decision taken the day it was, that doesn't mean I have to like it nor does it mean it's the end of it and the mess that is the now will remain the status quo..

It certainly wasn't the case with those who for forty years opposed our being in the EU and nor should it ever be because that is after all the fundamental core of any democracy..

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?

The majority didn't vote this government in... 40% did.

Sorry I worded it incorrectly but the point still stands."

I pointed it out reinforce your point...

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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

You raise a good point but isn’t the role of government to look after the total population? So if the answer is joining the customs Union why isn’t that being discussed ? It’s because it will publicly admit Brexit has failed . So self image and power through lies over peoples livelihoods .

We moved some jobs abroad knowing logistics would be a nightmare so a loss to the U.K.

This is only the start of this shambolic outcome as the government can’t even admit there is an underlying problem. The financial gaps will increase year on year. Brexit is a mess. Now why don’t they admit it and deal with it together?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But for democracy to be effective, especially the more direct antire we have seen with brexit, there needs to be a feedback loop.

This weekends shit show has been predictable from for two years.

Our solution. Put in a few extra booths at the last minute and not find out until the day the French didn't have people to man them.

Brexit created additional work. HMG failed to embrace this extra red tape we voted for. I less "blame" leave voters on this, than I do Tory voters. There will be other such problems coming out the woodwork. Wouldn't it be great if we could acknowledge that Brexit does cause some issues, and that HMG should be looking to resolve them.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"Many people still think brexit is a great. How are we supposed to move forward when people are still utterly confused and bamboozled into thinking it was a good idea to leave the EU.

Plus generally, I don't think it's a good idea for people to be shut down and not be encouraged to speak up."

So you want to encourage people to speak up, but you think it's fine to describe them as "utterly confused and bamboozled"?

I agree that we should encourage civilised debate. Treating Brexiteers as though they are all stupid doesn't help to foster that debate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?

The majority didn't vote this government in... 40% did.

Sorry I worded it incorrectly but the point still stands.

I pointed it out reinforce your point..."

The whole just get on with it narrative is ridiculous. We can all see it isn’t working but people are too proud to admit they were wrong. The only thing this government seem to have got right it the vaccine rollout. Everything else has been a complete fuck up.

I’m just waiting for Tom’s thread about Rwanda only taking 200 migrants at a cost of £120m. Let’s see how people defend that.

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?

The majority didn't vote this government in... 40% did.

Sorry I worded it incorrectly but the point still stands.

I pointed it out reinforce your point...

I’m just waiting for Tom’s thread about Rwanda only taking 200 migrants at a cost of £120m. Let’s see how people defend that."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are the French up to their old tricks ?

Of checking non EU passports and stamping them you mean?

Does it take longer to check a non eu passport than an EU passport?

In my experience yes.

There's more scrutiny.

Why though? I mean genuine question. Passports are checked for what purpose? Therefore it should take exactly the same amount of time to check any passport. Wherever it may be from. "

Whenever I've travelled back from abroad to the UK. The non British and EU queue was always longer and slower, because there are more restrictions on entry to those people.

So it will be the same now with people travelling to EU, why is this a surprise.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?"

Of course we're allowed to criticise the government.

But no one in this thread is doing that, they're all just saying "isn't it awful that those horrible voters made this happen", or "ha ha, serves you right".

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"The majority didn't vote this government in... 40% did."

It was the Labour Party that got 40%. The Conservative Party got 42.4%.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

"Many people still think brexit is a great. How are we supposed to move forward when people are still utterly confused and bamboozled into thinking it was a good idea to leave the EU.

Plus generally, I don't think it's a good idea for people to be shut down and not be encouraged to speak up.

So you want to encourage people to speak up, but you think it's fine to describe them as "utterly confused and bamboozled"?

I agree that we should encourage civilised debate. Treating Brexiteers as though they are all stupid doesn't help to foster that debate."

They're not stupid, they did a stupid thing. It's not the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?

Of course we're allowed to criticise the government.

But no one in this thread is doing that, they're all just saying "isn't it awful that those horrible voters made this happen", or "ha ha, serves you right"."

Turkey’s voting for Christmas. They ridiculed remainers but can’t take a bit back.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

63% of Scotland didn't vote for it but we still got landed with it. Yes we are living with it, but we are also still waiting to see what benefits Brexit has brought...

It would be nice if someone could list them for us....

Why? What would be the point? Whatever benefits or otherwise may have been claimed 5 years ago, for sure don't exist today because guess what? Events have happened? Covid for one... War in Ukraine for another? Mismanagement for another? I can understand some people feel bitter.... But let it go... There's no upside in keep carrying that bitterness into everything?

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"I agree that we should encourage civilised debate. Treating Brexiteers as though they are all stupid doesn't help to foster that debate."

"They're not stupid, they did a stupid thing. It's not the same."

You might be right, but take a look at the posts up above. How many of them say that Brexit voters made a mistake, and how many of them say that Brexit voters are stupid / confused / conned?

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?"

Where did I say you aren't allowed to criticise the government?

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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago

Chelmsford

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?

The majority didn't vote this government in... 40% did.

Sorry I worded it incorrectly but the point still stands.

I pointed it out reinforce your point...

I’m just waiting for Tom’s thread about Rwanda only taking 200 migrants at a cost of £120m. Let’s see how people defend that."

Rwanda has taken only 200 migrants at a cost of £120m

His pleasure to oblige his fans

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?

Of course we're allowed to criticise the government.

But no one in this thread is doing that, they're all just saying "isn't it awful that those horrible voters made this happen", or "ha ha, serves you right"."
while I don't always agree with the tone, if you want to be directly responsible for the direction this country goes in, you have to take responsibility for your decisions.

Many in the thread are saying it's nothing to do with Brexit. Or that the French should do more to cover for the choices we made.

Lack of accountability from both leave voters and hmg.

If I voted leave, I'd hope I'd be saying that this was a cost I'd accepted, because I believed in the benefits. And that HMG had let me down by not doing more to help minimise the cost. And while it seems the French haven't helped, given the shit show in the Airports recently, I can see that there are bigger issues that are causing capacity challenges.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?

The majority didn't vote this government in... 40% did."

Then they should have got off their arses and voted then? Isn't that the way democracy works? You vote.... The ones who get the most votes prevail?

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

"I agree that we should encourage civilised debate. Treating Brexiteers as though they are all stupid doesn't help to foster that debate.

They're not stupid, they did a stupid thing. It's not the same.

You might be right, but take a look at the posts up above. How many of them say that Brexit voters made a mistake, and how many of them say that Brexit voters are stupid / confused / conned?"

They are confused about brexit, they were conned. These are fair criticisms.

In order to have meaningful debate, you have to have some kind of starting point based in reality. When people come to the table with "brexit is a good idea", where on earth can you go from there? It's demonstrably terrible for the UK, British businesses (minus the odd one that benefits from the problems caused) and British people (aside from a handful off billionaires) and provides no benefits.

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)

"I agree that we should encourage civilised debate. Treating Brexiteers as though they are all stupid doesn't help to foster that debate.

They're not stupid, they did a stupid thing. It's not the same.

You might be right, but take a look at the posts up above. How many of them say that Brexit voters made a mistake, and how many of them say that Brexit voters are stupid / confused / conned?"

Are Brexit Voters surprised the way they treated remainers in the years after the vote because they were "speaking their mind".

Remainers warned of almost everything that is happening and were accused of "project fear" and being "sore losers", if anything they received much more vitriol from the brexit camp.

Now we get to point out the truth, and Team Brexit is all of a sudden not liking it when people can "speak their mind"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is an awful take. Are we not allowed to criticise the government because the majority voted them in?

The majority didn't vote this government in... 40% did.

Then they should have got off their arses and voted then? Isn't that the way democracy works? You vote.... The ones who get the most votes prevail? "

So every government should be immune from criticism?

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

63% of Scotland didn't vote for it but we still got landed with it. Yes we are living with it, but we are also still waiting to see what benefits Brexit has brought...

It would be nice if someone could list them for us....

...........................

Bitterness? You don't have to be bitter to be critical of the consequences of Brexit and as you demonstrate the benefits aren't self evident or they'd be readily described.

Unfortunately some Brexiteers have the emotional intelligence of a Stepford Wife.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

Fully accepted the decision taken the day it was, that doesn't mean I have to like it nor does it mean it's the end of it and the mess that is the now will remain the status quo..

It certainly wasn't the case with those who for forty years opposed our being in the EU and nor should it ever be because that is after all the fundamental core of any democracy..

Yep agreed. However I don't think in many cases the "debate" is accurate or well informed (I know that mine isn't). Where everytime something happens there is the usu chorus of...

Brexits fault

And the self flagellation that it's all our fault and our eu partners are faultless. It's never been that way.

And further if anybody truly thinks the French and German politicians don't enjoy pouring petrol on our flames now and in the past they are in an alternative fact situation.

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By *ayturners turn hayMan
over a year ago

Wellingborugh

It may be disappointing for some , but it looks like the traffic flow is back to normal now . Good news for everyone

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

Fully accepted the decision taken the day it was, that doesn't mean I have to like it nor does it mean it's the end of it and the mess that is the now will remain the status quo..

It certainly wasn't the case with those who for forty years opposed our being in the EU and nor should it ever be because that is after all the fundamental core of any democracy..

Yep agreed. However I don't think in many cases the "debate" is accurate or well informed (I know that mine isn't). Where everytime something happens there is the usu chorus of...

Brexits fault

And the self flagellation that it's all our fault and our eu partners are faultless. It's never been that way.

And further if anybody truly thinks the French and German politicians don't enjoy pouring petrol on our flames now and in the past they are in an alternative fact situation. "

Why should the EU be doing anything to help the UK with the problems caused by Brexit? We're outside of the EU now, their time, energy and resources are going into looking after EU member states.

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

"It may be disappointing for some , but it looks like the traffic flow is back to normal now . Good news for everyone "

.................................

Good news, the great empire bailed out by the French!

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)

"Why should the EU be doing anything to help the UK with the problems caused by Brexit? We're outside of the EU now, their time, energy and resources are going into looking after EU member states. "

But Johnny Brexit means getting rid of what we don't like and keeping what we do like... We are British, the Peons in Europe have to revere us and do our bidding at their own expense!

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By *ayturners turn hayMan
over a year ago

Wellingborugh

It looks that leaving the EU has little impact on most people. I have just checked the prifitsof Dipolma. In the last year revenues have grown from 538 million to 787 million and profits from 49.3 million to 69.80 million. This is why I always ignore the merchants of doom and gloom on here who always seem to take great pleasure in criticising the British economy.

The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them. Reported company results provide no evidence that we have suffered any long term damage.

Marks and Spencer have experienced issues exporting to NI. These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

"It looks that leaving the EU has little impact on most people. I have just checked the prifitsof Dipolma. In the last year revenues have grown from 538 million to 787 million and profits from 49.3 million to 69.80 million. This is why I always ignore the merchants of doom and gloom on here who always seem to take great pleasure in criticising the British economy.

The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them. Reported company results provide no evidence that we have suffered any long term damage.

Marks and Spencer have experienced issues exporting to NI. These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK "

This is a great example. How are you supposed to have reasoned debate when someone's starting point is that the moon is made of rhubarb?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

63% of Scotland didn't vote for it but we still got landed with it. Yes we are living with it, but we are also still waiting to see what benefits Brexit has brought...

It would be nice if someone could list them for us....

I'm not bitter, I'm more peeved that this is the way things are..

Come on, the pandemic and Ukraine yes are big events but the fact is brexit is not short term and it's effects will long out last either of the two..

The promises made are for the long term and we can already see the negative financial hit we are taking, why isn't everyone who is affected by such not peeved about it?

We all make mistakes in life but when we realise we have and the consequences are having a negative effect we do something to rectify or lessen the effects, even Thatcher did that with the poll tax..

This is the equivalent of running head first into a wall, daily..

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By *isandhers691127Couple
over a year ago

Bournemouth

"It may be disappointing for some , but it looks like the traffic flow is back to normal now . Good news for everyone "

Did those 5 French workers turn up then lol

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them. Reported company results provide no evidence that we have suffered any long term damage.

Marks and Spencer have experienced issues exporting to NI. These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK "

So the ONS and the OBR which state the financial hit to UK plc is just under £100 billion pa are to be ignored because one company has done well?

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them. Reported company results provide no evidence that we have suffered any long term damage.

Marks and Spencer have experienced issues exporting to NI. These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK "

..............................

You're not a born economist then!

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

This company has done well yes, but it's operations apart from Europe are in China, USA, Australia, New Zealand and other none EU states..

Once again not the full story eh pat..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them. Reported company results provide no evidence that we have suffered any long term damage.

Marks and Spencer have experienced issues exporting to NI. These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK "

Which profit number are you looking at? Because that looks like 2019 number (69.8) and yoy increase (49pc)

You also have picked a company that has limited cross border sales activity.

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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them. Reported company results provide no evidence that we have suffered any long term damage.

Marks and Spencer have experienced issues exporting to NI. These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK "

The biggest percentage of trade for country’s exports to the U.K. from an EU country is Ireland at around 9.2%. After this Belgium at 6.4% then Germany 4.9% The rest are less as a percentage of their exports.

The U.K. exports to the EU are 45% of our exports. I don’t think their “need” is anywhere near as much as we need them which is clearly shown by the facts.

The figures also show how much of this trade is affected by new border controls and added costs for the U.K. is . 45% 45% 45% Did you read this? Compare that to Germany 2.8%.

As for M&S having issues with NI, they are indeed. The same procedures and problems the rest of the U.K. is having exporting to the rest of the EU but the government don’t want to draw attention to that.

This was the result of those little issues for M&S. in case you can’t be bothered to read the link .I can tell you. They closed their stores.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58582860

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By *ayturners turn hayMan
over a year ago

Wellingborugh

The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them. Reported company results provide no evidence that we have suffered any long term damage.

Marks and Spencer have experienced issues exporting to NI. These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK

So the ONS and the OBR which state the financial hit to UK plc is just under £100 billion pa are to be ignored because one company has done well?

"
. However these are two entirely different comparisons. FTSE 350 results are actual published figures which can be checked in detail. The ONS and OBR figure are simply estimates based on modelling. Adjust the assumptions which you feel into a model and the results will vary widely.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

63% of Scotland didn't vote for it but we still got landed with it. Yes we are living with it, but we are also still waiting to see what benefits Brexit has brought...

It would be nice if someone could list them for us....

I'm not bitter, I'm more peeved that this is the way things are..

Come on, the pandemic and Ukraine yes are big events but the fact is brexit is not short term and it's effects will long out last either of the two..

The promises made are for the long term and we can already see the negative financial hit we are taking, why isn't everyone who is affected by such not peeved about it?

We all make mistakes in life but when we realise we have and the consequences are having a negative effect we do something to rectify or lessen the effects, even Thatcher did that with the poll tax..

This is the equivalent of running head first into a wall, daily.."

Realistically what can be done about it.?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them. Reported company results provide no evidence that we have suffered any long term damage.

Marks and Spencer have experienced issues exporting to NI. These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK

So the ONS and the OBR which state the financial hit to UK plc is just under £100 billion pa are to be ignored because one company has done well?

. However these are two entirely different comparisons. FTSE 350 results are actual published figures which can be checked in detail. The ONS and OBR figure are simply estimates based on modelling. Adjust the assumptions which you feel into a model and the results will vary widely. "

Perhaps adjust the profits in the company your quoting, be interesting to see how much actual trade they do in each of the country's..?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

63% of Scotland didn't vote for it but we still got landed with it. Yes we are living with it, but we are also still waiting to see what benefits Brexit has brought...

It would be nice if someone could list them for us....

I'm not bitter, I'm more peeved that this is the way things are..

Come on, the pandemic and Ukraine yes are big events but the fact is brexit is not short term and it's effects will long out last either of the two..

The promises made are for the long term and we can already see the negative financial hit we are taking, why isn't everyone who is affected by such not peeved about it?

We all make mistakes in life but when we realise we have and the consequences are having a negative effect we do something to rectify or lessen the effects, even Thatcher did that with the poll tax..

This is the equivalent of running head first into a wall, daily..

Realistically what can be done about it.? "

A grown up approach in accepting what is going on and discussions with the EU in possible changes to our not quite so oven ready deal..?

But the reality is we are stuck with it, dogmatism at its self harm worst..

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

63% of Scotland didn't vote for it but we still got landed with it. Yes we are living with it, but we are also still waiting to see what benefits Brexit has brought...

It would be nice if someone could list them for us....

I'm not bitter, I'm more peeved that this is the way things are..

Come on, the pandemic and Ukraine yes are big events but the fact is brexit is not short term and it's effects will long out last either of the two..

The promises made are for the long term and we can already see the negative financial hit we are taking, why isn't everyone who is affected by such not peeved about it?

We all make mistakes in life but when we realise we have and the consequences are having a negative effect we do something to rectify or lessen the effects, even Thatcher did that with the poll tax..

This is the equivalent of running head first into a wall, daily..

Realistically what can be done about it.?

A grown up approach in accepting what is going on and discussions with the EU in possible changes to our not quite so oven ready deal..?

But the reality is we are stuck with it, dogmatism at its self harm worst.. "

Most people accept what's going on. It's life. Most people don't discuss it at all. Just try and do the best they can. As for discussions with EU. Doesn't thta require both sides to have motivation to do so.? You've already said, why would they help us.... Kind of asked and answered... But yes any trade entity will have discussions when it's to their benefit. EU didn't really want to have meaningful negotiations before we left... Not a huge amount of chance they will want to do so now we have left. Unless its to their benefit.

We have what we have. We accept what we have. Some people have done very nicely out of it. Some have not. It's life.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

63% of Scotland didn't vote for it but we still got landed with it. Yes we are living with it, but we are also still waiting to see what benefits Brexit has brought...

It would be nice if someone could list them for us....

I'm not bitter, I'm more peeved that this is the way things are..

Come on, the pandemic and Ukraine yes are big events but the fact is brexit is not short term and it's effects will long out last either of the two..

The promises made are for the long term and we can already see the negative financial hit we are taking, why isn't everyone who is affected by such not peeved about it?

We all make mistakes in life but when we realise we have and the consequences are having a negative effect we do something to rectify or lessen the effects, even Thatcher did that with the poll tax..

This is the equivalent of running head first into a wall, daily..

Realistically what can be done about it.?

A grown up approach in accepting what is going on and discussions with the EU in possible changes to our not quite so oven ready deal..?

But the reality is we are stuck with it, dogmatism at its self harm worst..

We have what we have. We accept what we have. Some people have done very nicely out of it. Some have not. It's life. "

I didn't say why would they help us..?

It's so easy to say we have what we have if your not in the areas that are being affected by it badly, businesses built for years are being affected ..

We have 1.3 million vacancies in the labour market, jobs which will contribute taxes..

Our economic forecast is just above Russia in the G20 for next year..

So on the back of the pandemic, the cost of living crisis which will hurt many we are continuing to hurt our own economic performance..

It takes two to talk, we wanted this so we are the ones who need to open the possibility of dialogue in how we might alleviate the mess ..

What we have is a mistake but we are too arrogant to do something about it..

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

63% of Scotland didn't vote for it but we still got landed with it. Yes we are living with it, but we are also still waiting to see what benefits Brexit has brought...

It would be nice if someone could list them for us....

I'm not bitter, I'm more peeved that this is the way things are..

Come on, the pandemic and Ukraine yes are big events but the fact is brexit is not short term and it's effects will long out last either of the two..

The promises made are for the long term and we can already see the negative financial hit we are taking, why isn't everyone who is affected by such not peeved about it?

We all make mistakes in life but when we realise we have and the consequences are having a negative effect we do something to rectify or lessen the effects, even Thatcher did that with the poll tax..

This is the equivalent of running head first into a wall, daily..

Realistically what can be done about it.?

A grown up approach in accepting what is going on and discussions with the EU in possible changes to our not quite so oven ready deal..?

But the reality is we are stuck with it, dogmatism at its self harm worst..

We have what we have. We accept what we have. Some people have done very nicely out of it. Some have not. It's life.

I didn't say why would they help us..?

It's so easy to say we have what we have if your not in the areas that are being affected by it badly, businesses built for years are being affected ..

We have 1.3 million vacancies in the labour market, jobs which will contribute taxes..

Our economic forecast is just above Russia in the G20 for next year..

So on the back of the pandemic, the cost of living crisis which will hurt many we are continuing to hurt our own economic performance..

It takes two to talk, we wanted this so we are the ones who need to open the possibility of dialogue in how we might alleviate the mess ..

What we have is a mistake but we are too arrogant to do something about it.."

And again...practically..what is to be done? Beyonce speaking to the EU from a position of weakness and do what exactly? There has to be motivation on both sides. We've already seen they have been intransigent for 2 years over the NI situation?

I get you're frustrated. But there is no evidence that EU will concede or amend anything to help us alleviate any of the complexities.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

63% of Scotland didn't vote for it but we still got landed with it. Yes we are living with it, but we are also still waiting to see what benefits Brexit has brought...

It would be nice if someone could list them for us....

I'm not bitter, I'm more peeved that this is the way things are..

Come on, the pandemic and Ukraine yes are big events but the fact is brexit is not short term and it's effects will long out last either of the two..

The promises made are for the long term and we can already see the negative financial hit we are taking, why isn't everyone who is affected by such not peeved about it?

We all make mistakes in life but when we realise we have and the consequences are having a negative effect we do something to rectify or lessen the effects, even Thatcher did that with the poll tax..

This is the equivalent of running head first into a wall, daily..

Realistically what can be done about it.?

A grown up approach in accepting what is going on and discussions with the EU in possible changes to our not quite so oven ready deal..?

But the reality is we are stuck with it, dogmatism at its self harm worst..

We have what we have. We accept what we have. Some people have done very nicely out of it. Some have not. It's life.

I didn't say why would they help us..?

It's so easy to say we have what we have if your not in the areas that are being affected by it badly, businesses built for years are being affected ..

We have 1.3 million vacancies in the labour market, jobs which will contribute taxes..

Our economic forecast is just above Russia in the G20 for next year..

So on the back of the pandemic, the cost of living crisis which will hurt many we are continuing to hurt our own economic performance..

It takes two to talk, we wanted this so we are the ones who need to open the possibility of dialogue in how we might alleviate the mess ..

What we have is a mistake but we are too arrogant to do something about it..

I get you're frustrated. But there is no evidence that EU will concede or amend anything to help us alleviate any of the complexities."

And further... There's also no evidence that we have anyone who can negotiate their way out of a paper bag, let alone complex political and trade negotiations.

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

this is the start of an ever closer union. despite brextremist dummy spitting and foot stamping, britain will slowly but surely realign with europe to facilitate smoother relations and achieve growth through increased trade.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"this is the start of an ever closer union. despite brextremist dummy spitting and foot stamping, britain will slowly but surely realign with europe to facilitate smoother relations and achieve growth through increased trade.

An optimist! Let's hope it happens sooner than later!

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By *batMan
over a year ago

Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales)

" The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them.

These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK "

This is where I think people might be getting it wrong.

The EU is 27 (TWENTY SEVEN) countries, the UK is 1. The EU population is nearly 448 million people whilst the UK is not quite 68 million.

Why do you think 448 million people are as dependent on 68 million Brits as the other way around? Why would you think 27 sovereign states have a combined dependency on little old UK as the UK has on them?

Get a grip for FFS. The UK is small potatoes compared to the EU. What does the EU need from the UK? ( Not want but NEED).

“We intend to set aside the NI protocol … “

What? The NI protocol as in the legally binding contract the UK just willingly agreed and signed? Just set it aside?

Try doing that with your mortgage and see how well you do in the courts. Try getting more deals after the rest of the world sees how you do business.

I really think people should stop thinking of the UK and the EU as similar entities. One is a Union of 27 sovereign states, one isn’t.

Gbat

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

" The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them.

These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK

This is where I think people might be getting it wrong.

The EU is 27 (TWENTY SEVEN) countries, the UK is 1. The EU population is nearly 448 million people whilst the UK is not quite 68 million.

Get a grip for FFS. The UK is small potatoes compared to the EU. What does the EU need from the UK? ( Not want but NEED).

“We intend to set aside the NI protocol … “

What? The NI protocol as in the legally binding contract the UK just willingly agreed and signed? Just set it aside?

Try doing that with your mortgage and see how well you do in the courts. Try getting more deals after the rest of the world sees how you do business.

I really think people should stop thinking of the UK and the EU as similar entities. One is a Union of 27 sovereign states, one isn’t.

Gbat "

...............................

Excellent, excellent post

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

" Beyonce speaking to the EU from a position of weakness and do what exactly?"

.................................

Run the World

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

" The reality is that the EU are as dependent on the UK as we are on them.

These will be resolved as we intend to set aside the NI protocol and treat all citizens of NI in the same manner as those in the UK

This is where I think people might be getting it wrong.

The EU is 27 (TWENTY SEVEN) countries, the UK is 1. The EU population is nearly 448 million people whilst the UK is not quite 68 million.

Get a grip for FFS. The UK is small potatoes compared to the EU. What does the EU need from the UK? ( Not want but NEED).

“We intend to set aside the NI protocol … “

What? The NI protocol as in the legally binding contract the UK just willingly agreed and signed? Just set it aside?

Try doing that with your mortgage and see how well you do in the courts. Try getting more deals after the rest of the world sees how you do business.

I really think people should stop thinking of the UK and the EU as similar entities. One is a Union of 27 sovereign states, one isn’t.

Gbat "

true story dat

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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Didn't the French once block England from joining the European Union

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By *heNerdyFembyWoman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)

only one more reply after this one...

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"Didn't the French once block England from joining the European Union"

De Gaulle never forgave us for 1944.

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By *batMan
over a year ago

Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales)

"Didn't the French once block England from joining the European Union"

No. England never tried to join.

Gbat

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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago

milton keynes

"It may be disappointing for some , but it looks like the traffic flow is back to normal now . Good news for everyone

Did those 5 French workers turn up then lol

Think it was 6 that mysteriously could not make it into work on time but once they were things started improving though the backlog caused was huge. No wonder the head of Dover was so annoyed after all the preparation he had done

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