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The Tolerant Left

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)

Genuine question, does anyone know where this term came from?

I think I originally saw it in terms like "The So Called Tolerant Left" or "So much for the Tolerant Left"

But I don't recall anyone on the left actually claiming they were the "tolerant left"

Google hasn't been to helpful either, so if someone knows the answer I would appreciate it!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not sure of its exact origin. But what I assumed is this - Western liberal principles were rooted on the philosophy that as long as what someone is doing does not affect other people, it is not a problem. Even if it's not something you like, you must be tolerant of it. Being tolerant to people having same sex relationship, following religions that you don't follow/like etc.

Hence "The tolerant left" is used as a sarcastic remark everytime liberals act intolerant to something or support some other group which is intolerant.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"Genuine question, does anyone know where this term came from?

I think I originally saw it in terms like "The So Called Tolerant Left" or "So much for the Tolerant Left"

But I don't recall anyone on the left actually claiming they were the "tolerant left""

Are you saying that the term is incorrect, and that people on the left can be just as intolerant as those on the right?

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields

It seems like a strange thing to throw at someone.

Usually it crops up when someone doesn't like being called out for being bigoted. As if they expect "the left" to accept and "tolerate" thier prejudices.

It seems like it's a good thing to be tolerant of people's ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. But I don't see why anyone should tolerate people who are pricks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Most debates around this boil down to what tolerance means. Does it mean just shut up and put up? Is it ok to politely question and debate about something? Is it ok to verbally tell something insulting but not indulge in physical violence?

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By *ebjonnsonMan
over a year ago

Maldon

Nobody can be credited as it’s self assumed.

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By *ustintime69Man
over a year ago

london

Lots of people make assumptions about what it means to be liberal. At one time being liberal was much more about what are supposed to be conservative values - freedom to think and behave as you like without government interference. If you look at the Republican and Democratic Parties 200 years ago and now you will see that they have flipped sides almost completely. So too have liberal values and anyone who starts trotting out stuff about reds under the bed should maybe start thinking about what is good for society rather than themselves perhaps

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)

Ok so the overarching trend I am seeing is that it is a statement from the right in equating tolerance of the marginalised with global tolerance.

That makes sense to me, thank you everyone!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

These days the left are as extreme as the far right, so many ordinary people have said the same and been put off by the left wing antics. I had said so many times to such individuals they are doing a lot of damage and putting the silent majority off. They are reversing years of good community work and people have voted away from them in recent years…

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By *ddmanMan
over a year ago

Norwich

The Left and the Right are almost comically simplistic parcels for a variety of traits.

Authoritarianism vs liberalism

Collectivism vs individualism

Conservatism vs progressivism

Nationalism vs internationalism

Etc.

Anarcho-capitalists and Fascists are both considered "right" but have very different approaches to social structure.

Similarly the perspective of what is left and right is set locally. In the US, a highly indidiviualist national, the "left" in no way compares to the "left" of, say Europe, where socialist democracy isn't immediately associated with communist dictatorship.

The "tolerant left" has been adopted as a divisive slur to denigrate those who champion inclusivity as a virtue, but still exclude those who would *disrupt* that harmony. There is no obligation for inclusivists to embrace divisionism.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields


"These days the left are as extreme as the far right, so many ordinary people have said the same and been put off by the left wing antics. I had said so many times to such individuals they are doing a lot of damage and putting the silent majority off. They are reversing years of good community work and people have voted away from them in recent years…"

Which party in the UK represents the extreme left?

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"These days the left are as extreme as the far right, so many ordinary people have said the same and been put off by the left wing antics. I had said so many times to such individuals they are doing a lot of damage and putting the silent majority off. They are reversing years of good community work and people have voted away from them in recent years…

Which party in the UK represents the extreme left?"

Count Binface?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"These days the left are as extreme as the far right, so many ordinary people have said the same and been put off by the left wing antics. I had said so many times to such individuals they are doing a lot of damage and putting the silent majority off. They are reversing years of good community work and people have voted away from them in recent years…

Which party in the UK represents the extreme left?"

I don't think Labour as a party is extreme left but there are elements within the party who are.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields


"These days the left are as extreme as the far right, so many ordinary people have said the same and been put off by the left wing antics. I had said so many times to such individuals they are doing a lot of damage and putting the silent majority off. They are reversing years of good community work and people have voted away from them in recent years…

Which party in the UK represents the extreme left?

I don't think Labour as a party is extreme left but there are elements within the party who are."

Do you mean Momentum?

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"These days the left are as extreme as the far right, so many ordinary people have said the same and been put off by the left wing antics. I had said so many times to such individuals they are doing a lot of damage and putting the silent majority off. They are reversing years of good community work and people have voted away from them in recent years…

Which party in the UK represents the extreme left?

I don't think Labour as a party is extreme left but there are elements within the party who are."

The furthest left anyone I have seen in Labour has been in my life time has been mid left. I don't recall anyone calling to scrap capitalism entirely for example.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields


"These days the left are as extreme as the far right, so many ordinary people have said the same and been put off by the left wing antics. I had said so many times to such individuals they are doing a lot of damage and putting the silent majority off. They are reversing years of good community work and people have voted away from them in recent years…

Which party in the UK represents the extreme left?

I don't think Labour as a party is extreme left but there are elements within the party who are.

The furthest left anyone I have seen in Labour has been in my life time has been mid left. I don't recall anyone calling to scrap capitalism entirely for example."

Anyone who questions the wisdom of the government handing £ billions to their pals for sketchy PPE contracts is extreme left these days.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"These days the left are as extreme as the far right, so many ordinary people have said the same and been put off by the left wing antics. I had said so many times to such individuals they are doing a lot of damage and putting the silent majority off. They are reversing years of good community work and people have voted away from them in recent years…

Which party in the UK represents the extreme left?

I don't think Labour as a party is extreme left but there are elements within the party who are.

The furthest left anyone I have seen in Labour has been in my life time has been mid left. I don't recall anyone calling to scrap capitalism entirely for example.

Anyone who questions the wisdom of the government handing £ billions to their pals for sketchy PPE contracts is extreme left these days."

Corbyn is an outspoken socialist:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13609421.corbyn-socialist-not-unionist/

I believe left-right spectrum applies only on economic values not in social values. But for the sake of this thread, where "tolerant left" is basically the people who try to take away other people's freedoms to impose their views, an easy example is Naz Shah who liked and retweeted a tweet that said "R*pe victims of Rotherham have to shut up for the sake of diversity" Pretty sure this is extreme no matter how you see it. And then there is Diane Abbott. When a black rights activist Sasha Johnson was killed being caught in crossfire of a gang war, she tweeted that she was killed because she fought for racial equality.

And these two vile people were never penalised for such behaviour by Labour party. They are to the left what Nigel Farage is to the right.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine."

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine."

This example is back to what was in another thread. People here are intolerant of JK Rowlings intolerance.

This doesn't seem like a specific trait to the left/tolerant left/extreme left.

As for the other post. Left/right is more useful in the context of economics. Feed the poor/fuck the poor.

And as for being left/right on social issues. There are definitely horrendous individuals across the spectrum. I'm not sure it's accurate to suggest Pol Pot is an average leftist, or Hitler is an average rightist. (I know you don't, but it's just an example).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like."

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?"

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?"

You read that from my reply? Utterly bizarre.

Try reading again after taking a deep breath.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

This example is back to what was in another thread. People here are intolerant of JK Rowlings intolerance.

This doesn't seem like a specific trait to the left/tolerant left/extreme left.

As for the other post. Left/right is more useful in the context of economics. Feed the poor/fuck the poor.

And as for being left/right on social issues. There are definitely horrendous individuals across the spectrum. I'm not sure it's accurate to suggest Pol Pot is an average leftist, or Hitler is an average rightist. (I know you don't, but it's just an example).

"

There are intolerant people on extreme ends of social scale and also economic scale. I am fine with people disagreeing with JK Rowling. But resorting to vandalism is not really just disagreeing. "Tolerant left" has become a meme because it's the liberals who keep preaching tolerance. The moment someone disagrees their views, they seem to approve vandalism. Vandalism is extremism. Asking r*pe victims to shut up is extremism.

As for political spectrum in general, I like the split defined in political compass website. Left-right for economic policies. Authoritarian - liberal for social policies. There can be left liberals, left authoritarian, right liberals and right authoritarian.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

You read that from my reply? Utterly bizarre.

Try reading again after taking a deep breath. "

That was a reply to her post, not yours.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is."

No. I gave clear examples of where the meme of "tolerant left" comes from. There are intolerant scum on the left as much there are on the right.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

You read that from my reply? Utterly bizarre.

Try reading again after taking a deep breath.

That was a reply to her post, not yours."

Sorry. I take it back.

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is.

No. I gave clear examples of where the meme of "tolerant left" comes from. There are intolerant scum on the left as much there are on the right."

Except when it is on the left, the left does hold them accountable... unlike the right

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is.

No. I gave clear examples of where the meme of "tolerant left" comes from. There are intolerant scum on the left as much there are on the right.

Except when it is on the left, the left does hold them accountable... unlike the right"

I mean Naz Shah wasn't even suspended a day for asking r*pe victims to shut up

Diane Abbott wasn't penalised for posting inflammatory posts without knowing the facts.

Yup. So much accountability on the left.

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is.

No. I gave clear examples of where the meme of "tolerant left" comes from. There are intolerant scum on the left as much there are on the right.

Except when it is on the left, the left does hold them accountable... unlike the right

I mean Naz Shah wasn't even suspended a day for asking r*pe victims to shut up

Diane Abbott wasn't penalised for posting inflammatory posts without knowing the facts.

Yup. So much accountability on the left. "

Labour isn't left.... they are Centre at most

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

This example is back to what was in another thread. People here are intolerant of JK Rowlings intolerance.

This doesn't seem like a specific trait to the left/tolerant left/extreme left.

As for the other post. Left/right is more useful in the context of economics. Feed the poor/fuck the poor.

And as for being left/right on social issues. There are definitely horrendous individuals across the spectrum. I'm not sure it's accurate to suggest Pol Pot is an average leftist, or Hitler is an average rightist. (I know you don't, but it's just an example).

There are intolerant people on extreme ends of social scale and also economic scale. I am fine with people disagreeing with JK Rowling. But resorting to vandalism is not really just disagreeing. "Tolerant left" has become a meme because it's the liberals who keep preaching tolerance. The moment someone disagrees their views, they seem to approve vandalism. Vandalism is extremism. Asking r*pe victims to shut up is extremism.

As for political spectrum in general, I like the split defined in political compass website. Left-right for economic policies. Authoritarian - liberal for social policies. There can be left liberals, left authoritarian, right liberals and right authoritarian."

The political compass is better.

So vandalism is obviously wrong. The point here is that people who don't like JK Rowlings intolerance of the trans community get labeled as intolerant. Should we not be allowed to speak up?

I'm assuming here that you're not suggesting that everyone who opposes Rowling is going to vandalise stuff. Yet are brought under the umbrella of the "tolerant left" insult?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is.

No. I gave clear examples of where the meme of "tolerant left" comes from. There are intolerant scum on the left as much there are on the right.

Except when it is on the left, the left does hold them accountable... unlike the right

I mean Naz Shah wasn't even suspended a day for asking r*pe victims to shut up

Diane Abbott wasn't penalised for posting inflammatory posts without knowing the facts.

Yup. So much accountability on the left.

Labour isn't left.... they are Centre at most"

Define what you mean by left.

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is.

No. I gave clear examples of where the meme of "tolerant left" comes from. There are intolerant scum on the left as much there are on the right.

Except when it is on the left, the left does hold them accountable... unlike the right

I mean Naz Shah wasn't even suspended a day for asking r*pe victims to shut up

Diane Abbott wasn't penalised for posting inflammatory posts without knowing the facts.

Yup. So much accountability on the left.

Labour isn't left.... they are Centre at most

Define what you mean by left."

even by your political compass labour have been in the authoritarian right since blair. Not as far in the corner as the tories, but still that quadrant

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

This example is back to what was in another thread. People here are intolerant of JK Rowlings intolerance.

This doesn't seem like a specific trait to the left/tolerant left/extreme left.

As for the other post. Left/right is more useful in the context of economics. Feed the poor/fuck the poor.

And as for being left/right on social issues. There are definitely horrendous individuals across the spectrum. I'm not sure it's accurate to suggest Pol Pot is an average leftist, or Hitler is an average rightist. (I know you don't, but it's just an example).

There are intolerant people on extreme ends of social scale and also economic scale. I am fine with people disagreeing with JK Rowling. But resorting to vandalism is not really just disagreeing. "Tolerant left" has become a meme because it's the liberals who keep preaching tolerance. The moment someone disagrees their views, they seem to approve vandalism. Vandalism is extremism. Asking r*pe victims to shut up is extremism.

As for political spectrum in general, I like the split defined in political compass website. Left-right for economic policies. Authoritarian - liberal for social policies. There can be left liberals, left authoritarian, right liberals and right authoritarian.

The political compass is better.

So vandalism is obviously wrong. The point here is that people who don't like JK Rowlings intolerance of the trans community get labeled as intolerant. Should we not be allowed to speak up?

I'm assuming here that you're not suggesting that everyone who opposes Rowling is going to vandalise stuff. Yet are brought under the umbrella of the "tolerant left" insult?"

We agree on most part. In my experience, the "tolerant left" is usually used when the left resorts to this kind of stuff. I am pretty sure there are some people on the right who use the term whenever they see someone disagree with their opinion.

In the end, it's about how you disagree with the opinion. On one end, there is vandalism and violence. On the other end, there is just respectful disagreement. In between, there is verbal assault, verbal threats, going out of one's way to make life difficult for another person, some of which can be called intolerance too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is.

No. I gave clear examples of where the meme of "tolerant left" comes from. There are intolerant scum on the left as much there are on the right.

Except when it is on the left, the left does hold them accountable... unlike the right

I mean Naz Shah wasn't even suspended a day for asking r*pe victims to shut up

Diane Abbott wasn't penalised for posting inflammatory posts without knowing the facts.

Yup. So much accountability on the left.

Labour isn't left.... they are Centre at most

Define what you mean by left.

even by your political compass labour have been in the authoritarian right since blair. Not as far in the corner as the tories, but still that quadrant"

Blair has been out for a long time. Labour has lots of members. In between, there was Corbyn who was outspoken socialist.

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is.

No. I gave clear examples of where the meme of "tolerant left" comes from. There are intolerant scum on the left as much there are on the right.

Except when it is on the left, the left does hold them accountable... unlike the right

I mean Naz Shah wasn't even suspended a day for asking r*pe victims to shut up

Diane Abbott wasn't penalised for posting inflammatory posts without knowing the facts.

Yup. So much accountability on the left.

Labour isn't left.... they are Centre at most

Define what you mean by left.

even by your political compass labour have been in the authoritarian right since blair. Not as far in the corner as the tories, but still that quadrant

Blair has been out for a long time. Labour has lots of members. In between, there was Corbyn who was outspoken socialist."

And got ousted when he TRIED to take the party back in to the left. The Labour party is a centre centre-right party

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

This example is back to what was in another thread. People here are intolerant of JK Rowlings intolerance.

This doesn't seem like a specific trait to the left/tolerant left/extreme left.

As for the other post. Left/right is more useful in the context of economics. Feed the poor/fuck the poor.

And as for being left/right on social issues. There are definitely horrendous individuals across the spectrum. I'm not sure it's accurate to suggest Pol Pot is an average leftist, or Hitler is an average rightist. (I know you don't, but it's just an example).

There are intolerant people on extreme ends of social scale and also economic scale. I am fine with people disagreeing with JK Rowling. But resorting to vandalism is not really just disagreeing. "Tolerant left" has become a meme because it's the liberals who keep preaching tolerance. The moment someone disagrees their views, they seem to approve vandalism. Vandalism is extremism. Asking r*pe victims to shut up is extremism.

As for political spectrum in general, I like the split defined in political compass website. Left-right for economic policies. Authoritarian - liberal for social policies. There can be left liberals, left authoritarian, right liberals and right authoritarian.

The political compass is better.

So vandalism is obviously wrong. The point here is that people who don't like JK Rowlings intolerance of the trans community get labeled as intolerant. Should we not be allowed to speak up?

I'm assuming here that you're not suggesting that everyone who opposes Rowling is going to vandalise stuff. Yet are brought under the umbrella of the "tolerant left" insult?

We agree on most part. In my experience, the "tolerant left" is usually used when the left resorts to this kind of stuff. I am pretty sure there are some people on the right who use the term whenever they see someone disagree with their opinion.

In the end, it's about how you disagree with the opinion. On one end, there is vandalism and violence. On the other end, there is just respectful disagreement. In between, there is verbal assault, verbal threats, going out of one's way to make life difficult for another person, some of which can be called intolerance too."

True.

It's also important what people are intolerant of. There's a difference between being intolerant of trans people, foreigners, etc. And being intolerant of people who are intolerant of trans people, foreigners etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is.

No. I gave clear examples of where the meme of "tolerant left" comes from. There are intolerant scum on the left as much there are on the right.

Except when it is on the left, the left does hold them accountable... unlike the right

I mean Naz Shah wasn't even suspended a day for asking r*pe victims to shut up

Diane Abbott wasn't penalised for posting inflammatory posts without knowing the facts.

Yup. So much accountability on the left.

Labour isn't left.... they are Centre at most

Define what you mean by left.

even by your political compass labour have been in the authoritarian right since blair. Not as far in the corner as the tories, but still that quadrant

Blair has been out for a long time. Labour has lots of members. In between, there was Corbyn who was outspoken socialist.

And got ousted when he TRIED to take the party back in to the left. The Labour party is a centre centre-right party"

He was ousted because he lost elections. If the party didn't want left wing parties, he wouldn't have become a leader in the first place.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

This example is back to what was in another thread. People here are intolerant of JK Rowlings intolerance.

This doesn't seem like a specific trait to the left/tolerant left/extreme left.

As for the other post. Left/right is more useful in the context of economics. Feed the poor/fuck the poor.

And as for being left/right on social issues. There are definitely horrendous individuals across the spectrum. I'm not sure it's accurate to suggest Pol Pot is an average leftist, or Hitler is an average rightist. (I know you don't, but it's just an example).

There are intolerant people on extreme ends of social scale and also economic scale. I am fine with people disagreeing with JK Rowling. But resorting to vandalism is not really just disagreeing. "Tolerant left" has become a meme because it's the liberals who keep preaching tolerance. The moment someone disagrees their views, they seem to approve vandalism. Vandalism is extremism. Asking r*pe victims to shut up is extremism.

As for political spectrum in general, I like the split defined in political compass website. Left-right for economic policies. Authoritarian - liberal for social policies. There can be left liberals, left authoritarian, right liberals and right authoritarian.

The political compass is better.

So vandalism is obviously wrong. The point here is that people who don't like JK Rowlings intolerance of the trans community get labeled as intolerant. Should we not be allowed to speak up?

I'm assuming here that you're not suggesting that everyone who opposes Rowling is going to vandalise stuff. Yet are brought under the umbrella of the "tolerant left" insult?

We agree on most part. In my experience, the "tolerant left" is usually used when the left resorts to this kind of stuff. I am pretty sure there are some people on the right who use the term whenever they see someone disagree with their opinion.

In the end, it's about how you disagree with the opinion. On one end, there is vandalism and violence. On the other end, there is just respectful disagreement. In between, there is verbal assault, verbal threats, going out of one's way to make life difficult for another person, some of which can be called intolerance too.

True.

It's also important what people are intolerant of. There's a difference between being intolerant of trans people, foreigners, etc. And being intolerant of people who are intolerant of trans people, foreigners etc.

"

The thing is just saying "they are intolerant of trans people and foreigners" doesn't capture the intentions of majority of people. I personally believe in trans rights. I am happy to call people with their preferred pronouns. But I feel it's unfair for trans women to participate in female sports. I don't think a heterosexual man not wanting to date transwomen is a transphobe. But I have been told I am a transphobe for the above reasons.

Same with immigration. There are nuances about economics and cultural integration. Unfortunately, these nuances are mostly lost on internet debates. We just see people calling names at each other.

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

Well I guess thank you for affirming the posited idea that the "tolerant left" is a cudgel used by the right for people they don't like.

Do you know how to read? I pointed out clearly that it's about people resorting to vandalism.

Are you saying that people who resort into vandalism are actually tolerant? Are you approving of those acts?

No i am stating that the term "tolerant left" is something made up by the right to cudgel people they dislike.

Regardless of what that thing they dislike is.

No. I gave clear examples of where the meme of "tolerant left" comes from. There are intolerant scum on the left as much there are on the right.

Except when it is on the left, the left does hold them accountable... unlike the right

I mean Naz Shah wasn't even suspended a day for asking r*pe victims to shut up

Diane Abbott wasn't penalised for posting inflammatory posts without knowing the facts.

Yup. So much accountability on the left.

Labour isn't left.... they are Centre at most

Define what you mean by left.

even by your political compass labour have been in the authoritarian right since blair. Not as far in the corner as the tories, but still that quadrant

Blair has been out for a long time. Labour has lots of members. In between, there was Corbyn who was outspoken socialist.

And got ousted when he TRIED to take the party back in to the left. The Labour party is a centre centre-right party

He was ousted because he lost elections. If the party didn't want left wing parties, he wouldn't have become a leader in the first place."

Still doesn't change where the party stands and that is not on the left.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan
over a year ago

golden fields


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

This example is back to what was in another thread. People here are intolerant of JK Rowlings intolerance.

This doesn't seem like a specific trait to the left/tolerant left/extreme left.

As for the other post. Left/right is more useful in the context of economics. Feed the poor/fuck the poor.

And as for being left/right on social issues. There are definitely horrendous individuals across the spectrum. I'm not sure it's accurate to suggest Pol Pot is an average leftist, or Hitler is an average rightist. (I know you don't, but it's just an example).

There are intolerant people on extreme ends of social scale and also economic scale. I am fine with people disagreeing with JK Rowling. But resorting to vandalism is not really just disagreeing. "Tolerant left" has become a meme because it's the liberals who keep preaching tolerance. The moment someone disagrees their views, they seem to approve vandalism. Vandalism is extremism. Asking r*pe victims to shut up is extremism.

As for political spectrum in general, I like the split defined in political compass website. Left-right for economic policies. Authoritarian - liberal for social policies. There can be left liberals, left authoritarian, right liberals and right authoritarian.

The political compass is better.

So vandalism is obviously wrong. The point here is that people who don't like JK Rowlings intolerance of the trans community get labeled as intolerant. Should we not be allowed to speak up?

I'm assuming here that you're not suggesting that everyone who opposes Rowling is going to vandalise stuff. Yet are brought under the umbrella of the "tolerant left" insult?

We agree on most part. In my experience, the "tolerant left" is usually used when the left resorts to this kind of stuff. I am pretty sure there are some people on the right who use the term whenever they see someone disagree with their opinion.

In the end, it's about how you disagree with the opinion. On one end, there is vandalism and violence. On the other end, there is just respectful disagreement. In between, there is verbal assault, verbal threats, going out of one's way to make life difficult for another person, some of which can be called intolerance too.

True.

It's also important what people are intolerant of. There's a difference between being intolerant of trans people, foreigners, etc. And being intolerant of people who are intolerant of trans people, foreigners etc.

The thing is just saying "they are intolerant of trans people and foreigners" doesn't capture the intentions of majority of people. I personally believe in trans rights. I am happy to call people with their preferred pronouns. But I feel it's unfair for trans women to participate in female sports. I don't think a heterosexual man not wanting to date transwomen is a transphobe. But I have been told I am a transphobe for the above reasons.

Same with immigration. There are nuances about economics and cultural integration. Unfortunately, these nuances are mostly lost on internet debates. We just see people calling names at each other. "

I didn't mean to imply you are any of those things. Apologies if it seemed so.

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By *heNerdyFemby OP   Woman
over a year ago

Eastbourne (she/they)


"I didn't mean to imply you are any of those things. Apologies if it seemed so."

I don't think you did, I think you made a statement regarding your argument of right vs left.

Anyone who saw themselves in that statement did so entirely on their own.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And if you need other examples of "tolerant left", you just have to look at people who resort to vandalism at places in connection with JK Rowling. Apparently tolerance only applies for people who share their views. If not, even vandalism is fine.

This example is back to what was in another thread. People here are intolerant of JK Rowlings intolerance.

This doesn't seem like a specific trait to the left/tolerant left/extreme left.

As for the other post. Left/right is more useful in the context of economics. Feed the poor/fuck the poor.

And as for being left/right on social issues. There are definitely horrendous individuals across the spectrum. I'm not sure it's accurate to suggest Pol Pot is an average leftist, or Hitler is an average rightist. (I know you don't, but it's just an example).

There are intolerant people on extreme ends of social scale and also economic scale. I am fine with people disagreeing with JK Rowling. But resorting to vandalism is not really just disagreeing. "Tolerant left" has become a meme because it's the liberals who keep preaching tolerance. The moment someone disagrees their views, they seem to approve vandalism. Vandalism is extremism. Asking r*pe victims to shut up is extremism.

As for political spectrum in general, I like the split defined in political compass website. Left-right for economic policies. Authoritarian - liberal for social policies. There can be left liberals, left authoritarian, right liberals and right authoritarian.

The political compass is better.

So vandalism is obviously wrong. The point here is that people who don't like JK Rowlings intolerance of the trans community get labeled as intolerant. Should we not be allowed to speak up?

I'm assuming here that you're not suggesting that everyone who opposes Rowling is going to vandalise stuff. Yet are brought under the umbrella of the "tolerant left" insult?

We agree on most part. In my experience, the "tolerant left" is usually used when the left resorts to this kind of stuff. I am pretty sure there are some people on the right who use the term whenever they see someone disagree with their opinion.

In the end, it's about how you disagree with the opinion. On one end, there is vandalism and violence. On the other end, there is just respectful disagreement. In between, there is verbal assault, verbal threats, going out of one's way to make life difficult for another person, some of which can be called intolerance too.

True.

It's also important what people are intolerant of. There's a difference between being intolerant of trans people, foreigners, etc. And being intolerant of people who are intolerant of trans people, foreigners etc.

The thing is just saying "they are intolerant of trans people and foreigners" doesn't capture the intentions of majority of people. I personally believe in trans rights. I am happy to call people with their preferred pronouns. But I feel it's unfair for trans women to participate in female sports. I don't think a heterosexual man not wanting to date transwomen is a transphobe. But I have been told I am a transphobe for the above reasons.

Same with immigration. There are nuances about economics and cultural integration. Unfortunately, these nuances are mostly lost on internet debates. We just see people calling names at each other.

I didn't mean to imply you are any of those things. Apologies if it seemed so.

"

I don't think you did. I am not pointing fingers at you at all. There are many people on either side who debate in a mature fashion. There are also people on either side who would do things I mentioned above.

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