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"Centre for European Reform figures show that by the end of last year, the economy was 5% - or £31 billion - smaller than it would have been if the UK had stayed in the EU. https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-09/brexit-cost-the-uk-billions-in-lost-trade-and-tax-revenues-research-finds Of course, for the majority on this forum:- It was (and will continue to be) worth it; We knew what we were voting for and this is part of the plan; Rubbish - it is all going swimmingly well, I am certainly enjoying my lobsters; The UK is leading the World out of the Covid crisis; Vaccines, Vaccines and Vaccines; Nothing to see here; ..and I am sure there will be many more responses denying that there is anything amiss - apologies if you did not find your response above... Unfortunately, we are now seeing more and more references to Brexit when it comes down to the impact on the British economy and the value of the pound in your hand. " It's not the fault of people who voted for this shit. It's the fault of remainers (who voted against this shit), and/or Corbyn. | |||
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"Centre for European Reform figures show that by the end of last year, the economy was 5% - or £31 billion - smaller than it would have been if the UK had stayed in the EU. https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-09/brexit-cost-the-uk-billions-in-lost-trade-and-tax-revenues-research-finds Of course, for the majority on this forum:- It was (and will continue to be) worth it; We knew what we were voting for and this is part of the plan; Rubbish - it is all going swimmingly well, I am certainly enjoying my lobsters; The UK is leading the World out of the Covid crisis; Vaccines, Vaccines and Vaccines; Nothing to see here; ..and I am sure there will be many more responses denying that there is anything amiss - apologies if you did not find your response above... Unfortunately, we are now seeing more and more references to Brexit when it comes down to the impact on the British economy and the value of the pound in your hand. " You need to get it into your head that people had various reasons to vote and leave the EU. But here's a thought, if the EU didn't exist and we still had the EEC. I have no doubt the UK would still be a member. | |||
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"Centre for European Reform figures show that by the end of last year, the economy was 5% - or £31 billion - smaller than it would have been if the UK had stayed in the EU. https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-09/brexit-cost-the-uk-billions-in-lost-trade-and-tax-revenues-research-finds Of course, for the majority on this forum:- It was (and will continue to be) worth it; We knew what we were voting for and this is part of the plan; Rubbish - it is all going swimmingly well, I am certainly enjoying my lobsters; The UK is leading the World out of the Covid crisis; Vaccines, Vaccines and Vaccines; Nothing to see here; ..and I am sure there will be many more responses denying that there is anything amiss - apologies if you did not find your response above... Unfortunately, we are now seeing more and more references to Brexit when it comes down to the impact on the British economy and the value of the pound in your hand. You need to get it into your head that people had various reasons to vote and leave the EU. But here's a thought, if the EU didn't exist and we still had the EEC. I have no doubt the UK would still be a member. " I thought leave voters knew exactly what they were voting for | |||
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"Centre for European Reform figures show that by the end of last year, the economy was 5% - or £31 billion - smaller than it would have been if the UK had stayed in the EU. https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-09/brexit-cost-the-uk-billions-in-lost-trade-and-tax-revenues-research-finds Of course, for the majority on this forum:- It was (and will continue to be) worth it; We knew what we were voting for and this is part of the plan; Rubbish - it is all going swimmingly well, I am certainly enjoying my lobsters; The UK is leading the World out of the Covid crisis; Vaccines, Vaccines and Vaccines; Nothing to see here; ..and I am sure there will be many more responses denying that there is anything amiss - apologies if you did not find your response above... Unfortunately, we are now seeing more and more references to Brexit when it comes down to the impact on the British economy and the value of the pound in your hand. You need to get it into your head that people had various reasons to vote and leave the EU. But here's a thought, if the EU didn't exist and we still had the EEC. I have no doubt the UK would still be a member. " Is it important which piece of propaganda the leavers voted for? The point is, they made the country, therefore all of us, much worse off. | |||
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"Centre for European Reform figures show that by the end of last year, the economy was 5% - or £31 billion - smaller than it would have been if the UK had stayed in the EU. https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-09/brexit-cost-the-uk-billions-in-lost-trade-and-tax-revenues-research-finds Of course, for the majority on this forum:- It was (and will continue to be) worth it; We knew what we were voting for and this is part of the plan; Rubbish - it is all going swimmingly well, I am certainly enjoying my lobsters; The UK is leading the World out of the Covid crisis; Vaccines, Vaccines and Vaccines; Nothing to see here; ..and I am sure there will be many more responses denying that there is anything amiss - apologies if you did not find your response above... Unfortunately, we are now seeing more and more references to Brexit when it comes down to the impact on the British economy and the value of the pound in your hand. You need to get it into your head that people had various reasons to vote and leave the EU. But here's a thought, if the EU didn't exist and we still had the EEC. I have no doubt the UK would still be a member. " In which case why couldn’t we still be part of Single Market? Customs Union? EEA? Why weren’t we given that option to vote on? Hard Brexit idiots caused this! | |||
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"Centre for European Reform figures show that by the end of last year, the economy was 5% - or £31 billion - smaller than it would have been if the UK had stayed in the EU. https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-09/brexit-cost-the-uk-billions-in-lost-trade-and-tax-revenues-research-finds Of course, for the majority on this forum:- It was (and will continue to be) worth it; We knew what we were voting for and this is part of the plan; Rubbish - it is all going swimmingly well, I am certainly enjoying my lobsters; The UK is leading the World out of the Covid crisis; Vaccines, Vaccines and Vaccines; Nothing to see here; ..and I am sure there will be many more responses denying that there is anything amiss - apologies if you did not find your response above... Unfortunately, we are now seeing more and more references to Brexit when it comes down to the impact on the British economy and the value of the pound in your hand. You need to get it into your head that people had various reasons to vote and leave the EU. But here's a thought, if the EU didn't exist and we still had the EEC. I have no doubt the UK would still be a member. " Why would you think that? The EU does exist and the UK was very much a part of it - then opted to leave and we are now seeing and feeling the consequences. Whatever people's reasons for voting to leave (and I am comfortable with that) - this is the result and it will only get worse until there are changes made to rejoin at least the customs union. Brexit is over. It cannot be undone. I do not think that anyone disputes that fact. Brexit has also tanked the economy and will cause people in Britain to financially suffer unless something changes. You guys won (yippee) - own it. | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace " I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this. | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this." Ah, but there are still Brexit die hards who will justify their vote by stating that project fear isn’t as bad as some people had suggested,  | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this. Ah, but there are still Brexit die hards who will justify their vote by stating that project fear isn’t as bad as some people had suggested, "Indeed. Fab seems the be the last stronghold for them. It's fun. | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this. Ah, but there are still Brexit die hards who will justify their vote by stating that project fear isn’t as bad as some people had suggested,
Indeed. Fab seems the be the last stronghold for them. It's fun. "Nah there are still a few haunting the Express + Mail comments sections too. | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this. Ah, but there are still Brexit die hards who will justify their vote by stating that project fear isn’t as bad as some people had suggested,
Indeed. Fab seems the be the last stronghold for them. It's fun.
Nah there are still a few haunting the Express + Mail comments sections too."Probably the same people. | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this. Ah, but there are still Brexit die hards who will justify their vote by stating that project fear isn’t as bad as some people had suggested,
Indeed. Fab seems the be the last stronghold for them. It's fun.
Nah there are still a few haunting the Express + Mail comments sections too.
Probably the same people."It actually shocked me how many people I knew, once grilled on their reasons for brexit, basically boiled down to “but brown people” I’m not saying everyone obviously. But I definitely felt there was some nationalist/racist push behind the leavers. Lots of boomers who made their millions 50 years ago and now get annoyed that English isn’t like it used to be | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this. Ah, but there are still Brexit die hards who will justify their vote by stating that project fear isn’t as bad as some people had suggested,
Indeed. Fab seems the be the last stronghold for them. It's fun.
Nah there are still a few haunting the Express + Mail comments sections too.
Probably the same people.
It actually shocked me how many people I knew, once grilled on their reasons for brexit, basically boiled down to “but brown people”
I’m not saying everyone obviously. But I definitely felt there was some nationalist/racist push behind the leavers. Lots of boomers who made their millions 50 years ago and now get annoyed that English isn’t like it used to be "This. It's the elephant in the room...and the 2nd most popular reason people voted to leave. The funny thing is that deals with non-EU countries will most likely have conditions that will ease immigration barriers. I believe leave voters knew what they voted for but didn't realise how extreme it would be or didn't care. Now they're too proud to admit this either way. | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this. Ah, but there are still Brexit die hards who will justify their vote by stating that project fear isn’t as bad as some people had suggested,
Indeed. Fab seems the be the last stronghold for them. It's fun. "it's fun you want to sit on the other side of the fence I have tears rolling down my face laughing at all your posts enjoy the sunshine get out Abit. | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this. Ah, but there are still Brexit die hards who will justify their vote by stating that project fear isn’t as bad as some people had suggested,
Indeed. Fab seems the be the last stronghold for them. It's fun. it's fun you want to sit on the other side of the fence I have tears rolling down my face laughing at all your posts enjoy the sunshine get out Abit."Are you admitting that you knowingly voted for this shitshow? I applaud your bravery  | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this. Ah, but there are still Brexit die hards who will justify their vote by stating that project fear isn’t as bad as some people had suggested,
Indeed. Fab seems the be the last stronghold for them. It's fun. it's fun you want to sit on the other side of the fence I have tears rolling down my face laughing at all your posts enjoy the sunshine get out Abit."Excellent. Laughing at the damage brexit voters did to the UK. Top work. Although the serious point here is about the nature of post-brexit Britain. We have a culture now where it's the norm to try to ridicule anyone who wants to discuss the reality of brexit, or anyone who questions the wisdom of fast tracking the Tories mate's PPE contracts, or anyone who suggests Boris should follow the covid rules he set etc. | |||
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"Centre for European Reform figures show that by the end of last year, the economy was 5% - or £31 billion - smaller than it would have been if the UK had stayed in the EU. https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-09/brexit-cost-the-uk-billions-in-lost-trade-and-tax-revenues-research-finds Of course, for the majority on this forum:- It was (and will continue to be) worth it; We knew what we were voting for and this is part of the plan; Rubbish - it is all going swimmingly well, I am certainly enjoying my lobsters; The UK is leading the World out of the Covid crisis; Vaccines, Vaccines and Vaccines; Nothing to see here; ..and I am sure there will be many more responses denying that there is anything amiss - apologies if you did not find your response above... Unfortunately, we are now seeing more and more references to Brexit when it comes down to the impact on the British economy and the value of the pound in your hand. " . How could Brexit cause a smaller UK economy . We still trade with all EU countries but on slightly different terms. Filling in an extra bit of paper is not going to make much difference. You simply adapt to changing circumstances . Last time I checked I could not see any companies issuing profit warnings or paying lower dividends because of Brexit. In any event it is the profitably of your trade that matters, not the actual volume. It is preferable to go for good quality businness, not the highest turnover. | |||
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"I don’t know much about this, but all I do know is this Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. It’s the equivalent of taking your car to the pub on a Friday night and asking everyone to vote on what’s wrong with it. Any mechanics at the pub will be outnumbered by people basically guessing. The vote shouldn’t have happened. Democracy only works will a well informed populace I agree. Although the information was all out there for people. But the real life repercussions of brexit were written off as "project fear" and people were force fed vague benefits that fell apart with 3 minutes of scrutiny. The media played a large part in all this. Ah, but there are still Brexit die hards who will justify their vote by stating that project fear isn’t as bad as some people had suggested,
Indeed. Fab seems the be the last stronghold for them. It's fun.
Nah there are still a few haunting the Express + Mail comments sections too.
Probably the same people.
It actually shocked me how many people I knew, once grilled on their reasons for brexit, basically boiled down to “but brown people”
I’m not saying everyone obviously. But I definitely felt there was some nationalist/racist push behind the leavers. Lots of boomers who made their millions 50 years ago and now get annoyed that English isn’t like it used to be
This.
It's the elephant in the room...and the 2nd most popular reason people voted to leave.
The funny thing is that deals with non-EU countries will most likely have conditions that will ease immigration barriers.
I believe leave voters knew what they voted for but didn't realise how extreme it would be or didn't care. Now they're too proud to admit this either way."yep amusingly the result is we are now having having to recruit more from India etc due to Brexit - see City Pub Group announcement this week etc?? | |||
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"Centre for European Reform figures show that by the end of last year, the economy was 5% - or £31 billion - smaller than it would have been if the UK had stayed in the EU. https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-09/brexit-cost-the-uk-billions-in-lost-trade-and-tax-revenues-research-finds Of course, for the majority on this forum:- It was (and will continue to be) worth it; We knew what we were voting for and this is part of the plan; Rubbish - it is all going swimmingly well, I am certainly enjoying my lobsters; The UK is leading the World out of the Covid crisis; Vaccines, Vaccines and Vaccines; Nothing to see here; ..and I am sure there will be many more responses denying that there is anything amiss - apologies if you did not find your response above... Unfortunately, we are now seeing more and more references to Brexit when it comes down to the impact on the British economy and the value of the pound in your hand. . How could Brexit cause a smaller UK economy . We still trade with all EU countries but on slightly different terms. Filling in an extra bit of paper is not going to make much difference. You simply adapt to changing circumstances . Last time I checked I could not see any companies issuing profit warnings or paying lower dividends because of Brexit. In any event it is the profitably of your trade that matters, not the actual volume. It is preferable to go for good quality businness, not the highest turnover. " OP was correct. Just pretending it's not happening. "Nothing to see hear". | |||
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"Centre for European Reform figures show that by the end of last year, the economy was 5% - or £31 billion - smaller than it would have been if the UK had stayed in the EU. https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-09/brexit-cost-the-uk-billions-in-lost-trade-and-tax-revenues-research-finds Of course, for the majority on this forum:- It was (and will continue to be) worth it; We knew what we were voting for and this is part of the plan; Rubbish - it is all going swimmingly well, I am certainly enjoying my lobsters; The UK is leading the World out of the Covid crisis; Vaccines, Vaccines and Vaccines; Nothing to see here; ..and I am sure there will be many more responses denying that there is anything amiss - apologies if you did not find your response above... Unfortunately, we are now seeing more and more references to Brexit when it comes down to the impact on the British economy and the value of the pound in your hand. . How could Brexit cause a smaller UK economy . We still trade with all EU countries but on slightly different terms. Filling in an extra bit of paper is not going to make much difference. You simply adapt to changing circumstances . Last time I checked I could not see any companies issuing profit warnings or paying lower dividends because of Brexit. In any event it is the profitably of your trade that matters, not the actual volume. It is preferable to go for good quality businness, not the highest turnover. " PMSL | |||
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"And how much did we spend to be a member of a cartel ?" I'd like to here more of this nonsensical confusion from the brexit-is-a-good idea people. | |||
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"And how much did we spend to be a member of a cartel ?" Are you another person who will admit to knowingly voting for this shit show?  | |||
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"And how much did we spend to be a member of a cartel ?" It varied year to year. 2018 it 8.9 billion. But for most the decade it less than that. | |||
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"And how much did we spend to be a member of a cartel ? Are you another person who will admit to knowingly voting for this shit show? "I sure am and proud to be a majority voter | |||
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"And how much did we spend to be a member of a cartel ? Are you another person who will admit to knowingly voting for this shit show?
I sure am and proud to be a majority voter "Amazing. Can't imagine being proud of being fooled into voting to make the country worse off. But fair play to you. | |||
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"And how much did we spend to be a member of a cartel ? Are you another person who will admit to knowingly voting for this shit show?
I sure am and proud to be a majority voter "So your one of the 18% who still think Brexit is a good idea, you must really hate your country if you ‘knowingly’ voted for this utter shit show ? | |||
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"How does the OP work that one out. Only today the EU have rejected our 80 Billion commitment to joint research. So that's money staying in the UK. " Are you suggesting that the OP works for the Centre for European Reform? | |||
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"Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for." Are you saying that all of the people that voted 'remain' did so on solid economic grounds, having fully educated themselves in all the issues? | |||
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"Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. Are you saying that all of the people that voted 'remain' did so on solid economic grounds, having fully educated themselves in all the issues?" Not answering for the other poster. But clearly remaining would have been a better option economically. So the evidence suggests that people voting remain had a better grasp of the economic impacts of leaving the EU. | |||
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"said on the news 1 billion pounds worth of not fit for purpose ppe was literally burnt/incinerated last week" I very minor waste of money compared to brexit though. | |||
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"Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. Are you saying that all of the people that voted 'remain' did so on solid economic grounds, having fully educated themselves in all the issues?" of course not. And it's the complexity that meant a) the referendum was dumb and b) taking an advisory breferndum as being binding was dumb That said, if a subject is complicated, the experts are warning you, and you still do it, you have a degree of culpability. | |||
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"But clearly remaining would have been a better option economically. So the evidence suggests that people voting remain had a better grasp of the economic impacts of leaving the EU." You're assuming that everyone based their vote on the economics, and didn't have any other considerations. You're also assuming that there's no possibility of things getting better at some point. | |||
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"That said, if a subject is complicated, the experts are warning you, and you still do it, you have a degree of culpability." But there were experts on both sides, some arguing for, and some against. How would the public know which expert to listen to? | |||
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"That said, if a subject is complicated, the experts are warning you, and you still do it, you have a degree of culpability. But there were experts on both sides, some arguing for, and some against. How would the public know which expert to listen to?" Did you vote to leave? Or remain ? | |||
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"That said, if a subject is complicated, the experts are warning you, and you still do it, you have a degree of culpability. But there were experts on both sides, some arguing for, and some against. How would the public know which expert to listen to?" That is the point, it was too complicated for a binary choice referendum | |||
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"But clearly remaining would have been a better option economically. So the evidence suggests that people voting remain had a better grasp of the economic impacts of leaving the EU. You're assuming that everyone based their vote on the economics, and didn't have any other considerations. You're also assuming that there's no possibility of things getting better at some point." I'm not assuming that. You asked specifically about economics. I answered. But for sure they had other reasons, not wanting Johnny foreigner coming over 'ere was also a big factor for some people. Sure, there is some slim possibility of things being better. But its extremely unlikely, and a redundant argument. If anyone wanted a healthier economy, they would have voted remain. | |||
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"But clearly remaining would have been a better option economically. So the evidence suggests that people voting remain had a better grasp of the economic impacts of leaving the EU. You're assuming that everyone based their vote on the economics, and didn't have any other considerations. You're also assuming that there's no possibility of things getting better at some point." Are you suggesting that people knowingly voted for Brexit knowing it would ruin the economy but it didn’t matter because they would get other benefits? | |||
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"That said, if a subject is complicated, the experts are warning you, and you still do it, you have a degree of culpability. But there were experts on both sides, some arguing for, and some against. How would the public know which expert to listen to?" The experts arguing for brexit A. Had nothing but clever catchphrases and no actual rwal life information. B. Were laregly employed by or funded by someone with a vested interest in the uk leaving the EU. | |||
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"But clearly remaining would have been a better option economically. So the evidence suggests that people voting remain had a better grasp of the economic impacts of leaving the EU. You're assuming that everyone based their vote on the economics, and didn't have any other considerations. You're also assuming that there's no possibility of things getting better at some point. Are you suggesting that people knowingly voted for Brexit knowing it would ruin the economy but it didn’t matter because they would get other benefits? " There was an ideological reason and the lies spread by Brexiteers was providing some legitimacy. It doesn’t really matter the whys now. The brexiteers will continue to believe they were right. | |||
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"That said, if a subject is complicated, the experts are warning you, and you still do it, you have a degree of culpability. But there were experts on both sides, some arguing for, and some against. How would the public know which expert to listen to?" the majority? Imo it was clear what the over arching view was Itrc very few economists were on the side of Brexit, but I do take your point, there were probably enough to create confusion. Although I'd suggest one would use this to support a pre made decision. But the whole "enough of the experts" was to allow people to dismiss views that didn't suit the brecit narrative. | |||
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"But clearly remaining would have been a better option economically. So the evidence suggests that people voting remain had a better grasp of the economic impacts of leaving the EU. You're assuming that everyone based their vote on the economics, and didn't have any other considerations. You're also assuming that there's no possibility of things getting better at some point. Are you suggesting that people knowingly voted for Brexit knowing it would ruin the economy but it didn’t matter because they would get other benefits? There was an ideological reason and the lies spread by Brexiteers was providing some legitimacy. It doesn’t really matter the whys now. The brexiteers will continue to believe they were right. " Tbh, there were lies and misinformation on both sides, the referendum result is in the past, I just want the people responsible for ‘persuading’ the British public to vote to leave to deliver what they promised | |||
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"It's the elephant in the room...and the 2nd most popular reason people voted to leave. The funny thing is that deals with non-EU countries will most likely have conditions that will ease immigration barriers." This is the reason that the remain campaign lost the issue. There are plenty of good reasons for voting leave (and plenty for remain), but the remainers just decided that anyone that disagreed with them must be racist, and they said so very loudly. At that point there was little chance of any meaningful discussion, and no opportunity to convince them that they may be wrong. "Now they're too proud to admit this either way." It's not pride, it's just that they will get shouted down, accused of being racist, and told that they must be stupid. Why would they speak up if that's what's going to happen? | |||
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"It's the elephant in the room...and the 2nd most popular reason people voted to leave. The funny thing is that deals with non-EU countries will most likely have conditions that will ease immigration barriers. This is the reason that the remain campaign lost the issue. There are plenty of good reasons for voting leave (and plenty for remain), but the remainers just decided that anyone that disagreed with them must be racist, and they said so very loudly. At that point there was little chance of any meaningful discussion, and no opportunity to convince them that they may be wrong. Now they're too proud to admit this either way. It's not pride, it's just that they will get shouted down, accused of being racist, and told that they must be stupid. Why would they speak up if that's what's going to happen?" Or because they have run out of straws to clutch at. Brexit is, as expected, a disaster for Britain and British people. I enjoy the paradox of "we know what we voted for" and "yes brexit has caused catastrophic damage to the UK, but but but". And I also enjoy the "no, brexit is good" the complete denial of reality argument. | |||
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"It's the elephant in the room...and the 2nd most popular reason people voted to leave. The funny thing is that deals with non-EU countries will most likely have conditions that will ease immigration barriers. This is the reason that the remain campaign lost the issue. There are plenty of good reasons for voting leave (and plenty for remain), but the remainers just decided that anyone that disagreed with them must be racist, and they said so very loudly. At that point there was little chance of any meaningful discussion, and no opportunity to convince them that they may be wrong. Now they're too proud to admit this either way. It's not pride, it's just that they will get shouted down, accused of being racist, and told that they must be stupid. Why would they speak up if that's what's going to happen?" I accept the racist tripe is used way to much. It's like "youbhate your country go live in France"... They are bullshit poison pills that kill the debate. And there may be a load of confirmation bias in the next statement. But from being on many different forums (and not just, I hope, echo chambers) the leave voters tended to have less tangible reasons that can be kicked about. (My view is 80pc plus of people "knew" which way they'd vote before the referendum was called. We kid ourselves that we voted based on research. And that is both ways) | |||
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"My view is 80pc plus of people "knew" which way they'd vote before the referendum was called. We kid ourselves that we voted based on research. And that is both ways" I agree that the vast majority of people had made up their minds long before the campaigning started. I think that's a contributing factor to why the debate was so polarised, because people had firm positions and couldn't accept that others might see differently. "And there may be a load of confirmation bias in the next statement. But from being on many different forums (and not just, I hope, echo chambers) the leave voters tended to have less tangible reasons that can be kicked about." For many leavers I think it was an unease with the political direction that the EU is taking. Lots of people don't like the idea of a United States of Europe, and that's clearly where the EU is headed. Those people found it difficult to explain themselves as there's no single EU policy to point at. From my experience, remain voters all tended to point at trade, and have no view on any other issues. I spoke to lots of people that believed we wouldn't be able to trade at all with the EU if Brexit went ahead. | |||
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"The clickbait headline was able EU army wasn't it.... Feels a way off if ever going to happen. " Six months ago I would have agreed with you, the EU army keeps being talked about but doesn't seem to get very far. Today, with events in Ukraine, I can see an EU army being formed fairly soon. I hope I'm wrong. | |||
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"The clickbait headline was able EU army wasn't it.... Feels a way off if ever going to happen. Six months ago I would have agreed with you, the EU army keeps being talked about but doesn't seem to get very far. Today, with events in Ukraine, I can see an EU army being formed fairly soon. I hope I'm wrong." I'm less convinced ... Will be interesting to see.... If anything will bring out leavers fears, it's Ukraine. | |||
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"“European Army” is on a par with “square bananas” propaganda… c’mon, does anybody REALLY believe that the intention is an EU Recruiting Office? Or Danish Sergeants reporting to Latvian officers but barking instructions to an Italian squaddie who is really only fluent in a Sicilian dialect?" I don't think anybody believes that there will be an EU army as you describe, but I do think that the EU is aiming at a Euro command and control body. I expect to see the EU making decisions about where military intervention is needed, and commanding different nations to deploy as required. So it won't be a unified European army, but it will be the EU deciding what to do, with nations having no say individually. Of course, it doesn't affect us now that we have left. | |||
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"“European Army” is on a par with “square bananas” propaganda… c’mon, does anybody REALLY believe that the intention is an EU Recruiting Office? Or Danish Sergeants reporting to Latvian officers but barking instructions to an Italian squaddie who is really only fluent in a Sicilian dialect? I don't think anybody believes that there will be an EU army as you describe, but I do think that the EU is aiming at a Euro command and control body. I expect to see the EU making decisions about where military intervention is needed, and commanding different nations to deploy as required. So it won't be a unified European army, but it will be the EU deciding what to do, with nations having no say individually. Of course, it doesn't affect us now that we have left." how dissimilar is this to NATO ? Lower autonomy? | |||
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"how dissimilar is this to NATO ? Lower autonomy?" NATO has very simple rules. If one is attacked, the others come to help. If no one is attacked, no one needs to do anything. An EU controlled force would make decisions on whether to engage or not based on political imperatives. | |||
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"I get the concern of a united states of Europe. I'm not sure if that is the basis of most leave votes... Hard to tell. I would challenge the world "clearly". As you say, there's little to point to... The clickbait headline was able EU army wasn't it.... Feels a way off if ever going to happen. " It was, lots of people believed the bullshit printed in the press about "EU Army", "United States of Europe", "Bendy Bananas", "Aliens built the pyramids" etc etc. They still believe it! | |||
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"It's the elephant in the room...and the 2nd most popular reason people voted to leave. The funny thing is that deals with non-EU countries will most likely have conditions that will ease immigration barriers. This is the reason that the remain campaign lost the issue. There are plenty of good reasons for voting leave (and plenty for remain), but the remainers just decided that anyone that disagreed with them must be racist, and they said so very loudly. At that point there was little chance of any meaningful discussion, and no opportunity to convince them that they may be wrong." Come on... Are you really going to act like other motivations were greater than the issue of immigration? Also, I didn't say it was the number one reason but it was still very popular and carried a lot weight in many (not all) leave voters' decision. I was more than happy to have discussions in other areas as people who had their prejudices had already made their mind up and didn't care what remain voters thought. You think name calling was the reason Remain lost the vote? I had a friend literally tell me that she didn't want people coming over "willy nilly" and you want me to believe that she made up teeny percentage of the leave vote? "Now they're too proud to admit this either way. It's not pride, it's just that they will get shouted down, accused of being racist, and told that they must be stupid. Why would they speak up if that's what's going to happen?" The pride comes from not admitting that issues raised by remain are now becoming more apparent. The shouting down that happens now is when a problem arises that is a direct effect of Brexit, we're told that "you lost" and "get over it" and even worse "get on with it." The last one hurts the most because the country is now dealing with complex issues that many of us didn't ask for. By the way, I'm loving how you're painting the picture that leave voters were victimised during and after the campaign. Didn't hate crimes spike the day after the result? I still remember the graffiti on the Polish community centre. I'm not saying that Remain voters were saints. It was definitely a case of giving as good as you get on both sides. I just want honesty now and we're gonna have to meet each other halfway. | |||
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"Every single person I know that voted leave did it on grounds they didn’t understand. We handed an extremely complex economical issue to people who had no idea what that were voting for. Are you saying that all of the people that voted 'remain' did so on solid economic grounds, having fully educated themselves in all the issues?" Most of them. Yes. But more realistically it was a case of there was absolutely no economic sense leaving the EU. None. You didn’t need an economics degree to work that out. -Matt | |||
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"It's the elephant in the room...and the 2nd most popular reason people voted to leave. The funny thing is that deals with non-EU countries will most likely have conditions that will ease immigration barriers. This is the reason that the remain campaign lost the issue. There are plenty of good reasons for voting leave (and plenty for remain), but the remainers just decided that anyone that disagreed with them must be racist, and they said so very loudly. At that point there was little chance of any meaningful discussion, and no opportunity to convince them that they may be wrong. Now they're too proud to admit this either way. It's not pride, it's just that they will get shouted down, accused of being racist, and told that they must be stupid. Why would they speak up if that's what's going to happen?" No, the reason leave won was because Brexit was sold as whatever you wanted it to be. Don’t like brown people? Brexit fixes that. Don’t like the fact you can’t stick your dick in a 10kW vacuum cleaner? Brexit fixes that. Don’t like that someone has a French-sounding name? Brexit fixes that. Don’t like the fact your wife ran off with the milkman? Brexit fixes that. It didn’t matter how implausible the reason was. Brexit was promised to fix it. -Matt | |||
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"It's the elephant in the room...and the 2nd most popular reason people voted to leave. The funny thing is that deals with non-EU countries will most likely have conditions that will ease immigration barriers. This is the reason that the remain campaign lost the issue. There are plenty of good reasons for voting leave (and plenty for remain), but the remainers just decided that anyone that disagreed with them must be racist, and they said so very loudly. At that point there was little chance of any meaningful discussion, and no opportunity to convince them that they may be wrong. Come on... Are you really going to act like other motivations were greater than the issue of immigration? Also, I didn't say it was the number one reason but it was still very popular and carried a lot weight in many (not all) leave voters' decision. I was more than happy to have discussions in other areas as people who had their prejudices had already made their mind up and didn't care what remain voters thought. You think name calling was the reason Remain lost the vote? I had a friend literally tell me that she didn't want people coming over "willy nilly" and you want me to believe that she made up teeny percentage of the leave vote? Now they're too proud to admit this either way. It's not pride, it's just that they will get shouted down, accused of being racist, and told that they must be stupid. Why would they speak up if that's what's going to happen? The pride comes from not admitting that issues raised by remain are now becoming more apparent. The shouting down that happens now is when a problem arises that is a direct effect of Brexit, we're told that "you lost" and "get over it" and even worse "get on with it." The last one hurts the most because the country is now dealing with complex issues that many of us didn't ask for. By the way, I'm loving how you're painting the picture that leave voters were victimised during and after the campaign. Didn't hate crimes spike the day after the result? I still remember the graffiti on the Polish community centre. I'm not saying that Remain voters were saints. It was definitely a case of giving as good as you get on both sides. I just want honesty now and we're gonna have to meet each other halfway. " The propaganda was so strong. My parents both voted to leave. Despite every relative and descendent of theirs begging them not to and spending hours trying to reason and explain to them. They are not little-englanders and have lived and worked all over the world. My mother said she was voting brexit because she didn’t like the fact that the woman serving her in a cafe that week had a Polish accent. I pointed out that that woman could have been the wife of my higher-tax-rate earning degree educated programmer colleague where I worked at the worlds largest IT company (which she herself used to work at!). My dad waffled on something about EU laws. This despite the fact they own a motor home and spend half a year travelling around the EU in it. Yet they still voted to leave. As for violence my 5’3” wife went toe to toe with a 6’ thick-as-pigshit skinhead in the patrol station the next morning after he snarled to the Asian women behind the counter “you can go home now”. Oh and by the way, that Polish colleague of mine? He and his family (and his tax revenue) left the UK after living here a decade. Because the country simply became too inhospitable for them and their newborn daughter. Probably because of people like my mother 
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"Come on... Are you really going to act like other motivations were greater than the issue of immigration? Also, I didn't say it was the number one reason ..." So which is it? Was racism the greatest reason, or was it not number one? "You think name calling was the reason Remain lost the vote?" It was an important reason, yes. Calling someone a racist is a common technique used to shut down discussion. If your opponent isn't discussing something, you don't have the opportunity to convince them that they're wrong. "I had a friend literally tell me that she didn't want people coming over "willy nilly" ..." Did she say "people coming over" or "brown people coming over"? The latter sounds like racism, but the first is jingoism at worst. Lots of leavers wanted to control immigration, not stop it altogether. That's not racism, it's just thinking that EU freedom of movement isn't bringing the best people here. Obviously, you know her better than me, but that quote doesn't persuade me that she's racist. "The shouting down that happens now is when a problem arises that is a direct effect of Brexit, we're told that "you lost" and "get over it" and even worse "get on with it."" Yes, both sides are guilty of hurling abuse. Keeping at it will not achieve anything useful. "By the way, I'm loving how you're painting the picture that leave voters were victimised during and after the campaign." I don't know where you get that idea. I'm not saying that anyone was victimised, I'm just saying that we didn't have a proper debate about the issues. All we got was a slanging match from 2 sides that had both already made up their minds. "Didn't hate crimes spike the day after the result? I still remember the graffiti on the Polish community centre." Yes, Brexit emboldened some racists to be more visible. There were only a few public incidents, but it was indeed very ugly. I don't deny the existence of racists, and I expect that they all voted to leave, but I do deny that racism was a large factor. "It was definitely a case of giving as good as you get on both sides. I just want honesty now and we're gonna have to meet each other halfway." Agreed. I think that the best way to get that honesty is to listen to people, and not judge them until you've heard all that they have to say. | |||
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"But more realistically it was a case of there was absolutely no economic sense leaving the EU. None. You didn’t need an economics degree to work that out." Very basic economic theory says that Brexit was a great idea. If we accept that trade is good, then more trade is better. The EU is less than 20% of the global economy, and membership prevents us from accessing that other 80%. Clearly leaving would allow us more access to more trade, which would be better. Yes, obviously it's more complex than that, but that's the basic argument, and it's one that the leave campaign used. Sadly there was no proper debate about the issue, so the shortcomings of that argument never got aired. | |||
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"But more realistically it was a case of there was absolutely no economic sense leaving the EU. None. You didn’t need an economics degree to work that out. Very basic economic theory says that Brexit was a great idea. If we accept that trade is good, then more trade is better. The EU is less than 20% of the global economy, and membership prevents us from accessing that other 80%. Clearly leaving would allow us more access to more trade, which would be better. Yes, obviously it's more complex than that, but that's the basic argument, and it's one that the leave campaign used. Sadly there was no proper debate about the issue, so the shortcomings of that argument never got aired." What do you mean by preventing us from accessing 80pc of the global market ? Clearly we can trade with the RoW, so it must mean more than that ... | |||
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"But more realistically it was a case of there was absolutely no economic sense leaving the EU. None. You didn’t need an economics degree to work that out." "Very basic economic theory says that Brexit was a great idea. If we accept that trade is good, then more trade is better. The EU is less than 20% of the global economy, and membership prevents us from accessing that other 80%. Clearly leaving would allow us more access to more trade, which would be better. Yes, obviously it's more complex than that, but that's the basic argument, and it's one that the leave campaign used. Sadly there was no proper debate about the issue, so the shortcomings of that argument never got aired." "What do you mean by preventing us from accessing 80pc of the global market ? Clearly we can trade with the RoW, so it must mean more than that ..." Oops! I missed a word out, I should have said "... prevents us from freely accessing ...". The idea was that the EU imposes all sorts of unnecessary restrictions to trade outside the bloc, and that removing those restrictions would be a good thing. | |||
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"But more realistically it was a case of there was absolutely no economic sense leaving the EU. None. You didn’t need an economics degree to work that out. Very basic economic theory says that Brexit was a great idea. If we accept that trade is good, then more trade is better. The EU is less than 20% of the global economy, and membership prevents us from accessing that other 80%. Clearly leaving would allow us more access to more trade, which would be better. Yes, obviously it's more complex than that, but that's the basic argument, and it's one that the leave campaign used. Sadly there was no proper debate about the issue, so the shortcomings of that argument never got aired." We were of course already trading with with rest of the world. But you're right. This kind of misleading bollocks was enough to convince people who weren't paying attention, to vote leave. | |||
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"But more realistically it was a case of there was absolutely no economic sense leaving the EU. None. You didn’t need an economics degree to work that out. Very basic economic theory says that Brexit was a great idea. If we accept that trade is good, then more trade is better. The EU is less than 20% of the global economy, and membership prevents us from accessing that other 80%. Clearly leaving would allow us more access to more trade, which would be better. Yes, obviously it's more complex than that, but that's the basic argument, and it's one that the leave campaign used. Sadly there was no proper debate about the issue, so the shortcomings of that argument never got aired. What do you mean by preventing us from accessing 80pc of the global market ? Clearly we can trade with the RoW, so it must mean more than that ... Oops! I missed a word out, I should have said "... prevents us from freely accessing ...". The idea was that the EU imposes all sorts of unnecessary restrictions to trade outside the bloc, and that removing those restrictions would be a good thing." Freely accessing is interesting. Do you mean quotas, tarrifs or friction free? | |||
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"This while rhetoric of the EU stopping the UK from freely trading with rest if world is completely spurious and misleading. 1. We were part of the EU! It didn’t stop anything. We were at the top table for EVERYTHING! We worked TOGETHER with the other member states to set the rules! 2. We of course traded with the entire world but on terms WE decided on as part of the EU! 3. Those terms that WE helped to design were set to protect jobs in the EU member states (inc the UK), standards, quality and attempt to push up standards and quality in trading partners. The protectionism protected the UK as well as all the other members of the EU. 4. As a member of the EU we were part of one of the three big players on the world trade stage = China, USA, EU. That gave us the collective power to dictate terms rather than be dictated to. While the UK is not a minnow, we are now 2nd division. We couldn’t even go toe-to-toe with Australia! 5. When people use this “free trading with RoW” argument what they mean is, there are opportunities for a minority to make a lot of money but for the majority we will see a reduction in standards and quality. Ultimately, that means to compete the UK itself will need to lower standards (inc worker protection). Welcome to post Brexit reality." Well said. Unfortunately "Take back control" requires far less understanding by the intellectually challenged than understanding how Britain in the EU functioned. So we have Brexit. | |||
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"Come on... Are you really going to act like other motivations were greater than the issue of immigration? Also, I didn't say it was the number one reason ... So which is it? Was racism the greatest reason, or was it not number one?" Sovereignty was No1. British laws for British people. That alone excludes the rest of Europe so naturally (for some, not all) Predjudice follows. If you can't see the synergy, then you're simply being naive. "You think name calling was the reason Remain lost the vote? It was an important reason, yes. Calling someone a racist is a common technique used to shut down discussion. If your opponent isn't discussing something, you don't have the opportunity to convince them that they're wrong." The problem with Racism and Prejudice is that they are horrible things and to be labelled that way feels bad. However, the problem that Leave voters face is you voted alongside people with these prejudices. No one should be tarred with the same brush but it wasn't called out leave campaign and they cared less when they won so, sadly, the message was clear. "I had a friend literally tell me that she didn't want people coming over "willy nilly" ... Did she say "people coming over" or "brown people coming over"? The latter sounds like racism, but the first is jingoism at worst. Lots of leavers wanted to control immigration, not stop it altogether. That's not racism, it's just thinking that EU freedom of movement isn't bringing the best people here. Obviously, you know her better than me, but that quote doesn't persuade me that she's racist." A discriminatory remark is still discriminatory. For many leave voters, it wasn't limitation of freedom of movement, it was to end freedom of movement and "best people" will always be subjective. Also, it depends on the job in question, typically jobs not being done by UK nationals anyway. "The shouting down that happens now is when a problem arises that is a direct effect of Brexit, we're told that "you lost" and "get over it" and even worse "get on with it." Yes, both sides are guilty of hurling abuse. Keeping at it will not achieve anything useful." Agreed. "By the way, I'm loving how you're painting the picture that leave voters were victimised during and after the campaign. I don't know where you get that idea. I'm not saying that anyone was victimised, I'm just saying that we didn't have a proper debate about the issues. All we got was a slanging match from 2 sides that had both already made up their minds." I got that idea from the point you raised about people being called racist or accused of prejudice felt shut down. I'll happily have a debate about immigration providing discriminatory remarks are left out. I feel immigration could've been dealt with domestically and had nothing to do with the EU and freedom of movement could have simply been reviewed. The Windrush Scandal proof of that. The Home office is needs an overhaul! Didn't hate crimes spike the day after the result? I still remember the graffiti on the Polish community centre. "Yes, Brexit emboldened some racists to be more visible. There were only a few public incidents, but it was indeed very ugly. I don't deny the existence of racists, and I expect that they all voted to leave, but I do deny that racism was a large factor." This is about as close as we're going to agree on this so I'm leaving it here. When the leave vote won, sadly they inherited this voter base too. Part of the task of making Brexit work is dealing with this factor, whether you think it's large or not. "It was definitely a case of giving as good as you get on both sides. I just want honesty now and we're gonna have to meet each other halfway. Agreed. I think that the best way to get that honesty is to listen to people, and not judge them until you've heard all that they have to say." Again, agreed. | |||
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"Why are people blaming Brexit for the problems faced now that the whole world is facing? Anyone with any nous knew that leaving the EU would be hard but the idea of pinning all the current issues on it is morally bankrupt regardless of what side you fall on. C" Sorry but I think you’ll find that although the pandemic may have stalled the process of leaving for 18 months the reality of Brexit is now upon us and our quisling government are now about to break international law in order to get Brexit done and in the process allow the DUP to stop the Stormont assembly from functioning and therefore allow NI to stagnate further. It’s a bag of shite that just keeps on giving! | |||
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"Freely accessing is interesting. Do you mean quotas, tarrifs or friction free?" Yes, I meant quotas and tariffs. | |||
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"Why are people blaming Brexit for the problems faced now that the whole world is facing? Anyone with any nous knew that leaving the EU would be hard but the idea of pinning all the current issues on it is morally bankrupt regardless of what side you fall on. C" Only the problems caused by brexit are being pinned on brexit. I assume that's still allowed. | |||
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"The problem with Racism and Prejudice is that they are horrible things and to be labelled that way feels bad." For me the problem isn't that it feels bad, it's that it shows that the person I am talking to has already made their mind up. Once they've chosen their position and decided that anyone that disagrees with them must be racist, there's just no point discussing it any further. "However, the problem that Leave voters face is you voted alongside people with these prejudices. No one should be tarred with the same brush but it wasn't called out leave campaign and they cared less when they won so, sadly, the message was clear." So you're saying that no one should be tarred with the same brush, then you continue on to do just that. "I had a friend literally tell me that she didn't want people coming over "willy nilly" ..." "Obviously, you know her better than me, but that quote doesn't persuade me that she's racist." "A discriminatory remark is still discriminatory." How is 'I don't want people coming over willy nilly' discriminatory? "By the way, I'm loving how you're painting the picture that leave voters were victimised during and after the campaign." "I don't know where you get that idea." "I got that idea from the point you raised about people being called racist or accused of prejudice felt shut down." Again, you're reading feelings into what I wrote. What I originally said was "it's just that they will get shouted down, accused of being racist, and told that they must be stupid. Why would they speak up if that's what's going to happen?". I'm not saying that being called racists will make them feel bad, I'm saying that they don't start a conversation because they know that the other side won't listen and will just resort to name calling. "I'll happily have a debate about immigration providing discriminatory remarks are left out." As we've shown above, what you think is discriminatory isn't the same as what I think is discriminatory. | |||
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"Freely accessing is interesting. Do you mean quotas, tarrifs or friction free? Yes, I meant quotas and tariffs." did you miss friction free trade out intentionally? As this is a hidden tarrifs imo. I disagree that this wasn't engaged with by remain. I agree that leave put out the idea all trade is good trade, I'd also say they failed to highlight that it also meant the destruction of UK industry and farming .... Not all trade is good trade, maybe ? They also continued to push the UK as protectionist.... Despite the number of trade deals it has (and which we now see we have failed to build on!) And of course any attempt to say that maybe the UK will struggle to land trade deals on better terms was dismissed. But the argument was there. The big trouble is the value of being in the EU is, I'd suggest, in the detail. It's highly complex. And how many people want to engage with the Liverpool model versus the gravity model of trade ? | |||
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"The problem with Racism and Prejudice is that they are horrible things and to be labelled that way feels bad. For me the problem isn't that it feels bad, it's that it shows that the person I am talking to has already made their mind up. Once they've chosen their position and decided that anyone that disagrees with them must be racist, there's just no point discussing it any further." But some people had already made their mind up on both sides. You're fearful and weak if you chose remain and pig-headed and racist if you chose leave. It is what it is. There's no talking to some people. "However, the problem that Leave voters face is you voted alongside people with these prejudices. No one should be tarred with the same brush but it wasn't called out leave campaign and they cared less when they won so, sadly, the message was clear. So you're saying that no one should be tarred with the same brush, then you continue on to do just that." As I mentioned in my comment and as you shared in yours, leave's voter base is shared with emboldened racists and xenophobes who think enough people agree with them on these issues. So it's not simply that I think everyone who voted leave is racist (which I don't) but many of the emboldened do. Is that Remain vote's fault? These voters felt they have kindred spirits among the leave voters. * "I had a friend literally tell me that she didn't want people coming over "willy nilly" ... Obviously, you know her better than me, but that quote doesn't persuade me that she's racist. A discriminatory remark is still discriminatory. How is 'I don't want people coming over willy nilly' discriminatory?" Wow. I actually have to spell this out to you. Ok... Here's a story: I was asked the other day "Where are you from?" I replied London. The response "No you're not mate, where are you really from?" He's not border control and I was born here, whether he likes my answer or not. Now, this may not seem offensive, discriminatory or rude to you but for many it is. Simply by what's implied. Now, you could argue that "willy nilly" comment meant we need well managed immigration with the proper checks and balances to ensure we get the best migrants to settle...but we both know that's not the case. You don't have to use slurs or offensive language to be discriminatory. * "By the way, I'm loving how you're painting the picture that leave voters were victimised during and after the campaign. I don't know where you get that idea. I got that idea from the point you raised about people being called racist or accused of prejudice felt shut down. Again, you're reading feelings into what I wrote. What I originally said was "it's just that they will get shouted down, accused of being racist, and told that they must be stupid. Why would they speak up if that's what's going to happen?". I'm not saying that being called racists will make them feel bad, I'm saying that they don't start a conversation because they know that the other side won't listen and will just resort to name calling." We already established that the name calling was uncalled for and you're still stressing this point. As I have said a few times, the leave camp didn't squash or try to dampen the xenophobic undertones of the campaign. It was encouraged so I'm gonna leave that there. "I'll happily have a debate about immigration providing discriminatory remarks are left out. As we've shown above, what you think is discriminatory isn't the same as what I think is discriminatory." ...and I've shown how discrimination can be implied. Look, I get it. Not all leave voters are racist and/or xenophobic but the message was pushed and pushed hard. I'm not trying to label, I'm just saying they made a mess now own it! But, sadly, we end up arguing over the presence of prejudice instead of dealing with it. | |||
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"Freely accessing is interesting. Do you mean quotas, tarrifs or friction free?" "Yes, I meant quotas and tariffs.did you miss friction free trade out intentionally? As this is a hidden tarrifs imo." I knew this would be taken out of context. There was a post where someone said "... there was absolutely no economic sense leaving the EU. None. You didn’t need an economics degree to work that out.". I tried to show them that people might have thought that Brexit was sensible if they did a very basic economic analysis, and concluded that freer trade with a bigger groups was better than what we had I followed it with "Yes, obviously it's more complex than that, but that's the basic argument, and it's one that the leave campaign used.". I'm not trying to argue the case that leaving was better, I was just countering someone that said that the economic argument was obvious. | |||
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"Freely accessing is interesting. Do you mean quotas, tarrifs or friction free? Yes, I meant quotas and tariffs.did you miss friction free trade out intentionally? As this is a hidden tarrifs imo. I knew this would be taken out of context. There was a post where someone said "... there was absolutely no economic sense leaving the EU. None. You didn’t need an economics degree to work that out.". I tried to show them that people might have thought that Brexit was sensible if they did a very basic economic analysis, and concluded that freer trade with a bigger groups was better than what we had I followed it with "Yes, obviously it's more complex than that, but that's the basic argument, and it's one that the leave campaign used.". I'm not trying to argue the case that leaving was better, I was just countering someone that said that the economic argument was obvious." I agree. I guess the difference is between people thinking there is an economic argument to leave and there actually being an economic argument to leave. | |||
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"Freely accessing is interesting. Do you mean quotas, tarrifs or friction free? Yes, I meant quotas and tariffs.did you miss friction free trade out intentionally? As this is a hidden tarrifs imo. I knew this would be taken out of context. There was a post where someone said "... there was absolutely no economic sense leaving the EU. None. You didn’t need an economics degree to work that out.". I tried to show them that people might have thought that Brexit was sensible if they did a very basic economic analysis, and concluded that freer trade with a bigger groups was better than what we had I followed it with "Yes, obviously it's more complex than that, but that's the basic argument, and it's one that the leave campaign used.". I'm not trying to argue the case that leaving was better, I was just countering someone that said that the economic argument was obvious." im picking up more on the idea the subject wasn't debated and the argument wasn't aired. I would say rmwin tried to engage when talking about the value of the EU relationship (eh the SM) and the risks we may not get the deals we want. But were dismissed. Eg "not front of the queue with the US" I also believe Leave were disingenuous with their use of the simple economic model. That's probably another thread tho. The econinc argument was probably "obvious" once you peel back the first layer. In which case there is subjectivity what obvious is. | |||
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"I had a friend literally tell me that she didn't want people coming over "willy nilly" ..." "Obviously, you know her better than me, but that quote doesn't persuade me that she's racist." "A discriminatory remark is still discriminatory." "How is 'I don't want people coming over willy nilly' discriminatory?" "Here's a story: I was asked the other day "Where are you from?" I replied London. The response "No you're not mate ... " I completely understand your story, and I agree with you that that was a discriminatory remark for him to make. I can imagine a situation where that wasn't a racist exchange, but it most likely was. With the "coming over willy nilly" phrase I can see more chance that it might have been protectionist rather than racist. But you were there, so you know better | |||
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"Not saying Brexit isn't having an impact but don't folk think other factors are a more likely cause? Global lockdowns, global inflation, and Ukraine vs Russia war are having are surely a bigger cause than Brexit? Either way, we can agree things are certainly crap-tastic at the moment." Brexit has twice the economic impact of the pandemic. Your speculation is inaccurate. | |||
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