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"Years ago I had major regular run ins with a particularly belligerent union and so therefore had a negative view on all political interference from unions at that time. Still do to a point. The papers are full of how the tube drivers wages have increased by 34% since 2011 and the media saying it’s obscene. I listened to the General secretary of the RMT the other day and he said despite all that fighting and striking the wages of those drivers hasn’t increased in real terms. I looked into this and he’s right in theory because inflation has compounded at 37% over the same time period. Now the papers have complained about that 34% wage increase since 2011 and compared the rest of the British workers have been “good” and received just over 16% . So the tube drivers have more or less stayed where they where but the rest of the British workers have taken a large drop in wages relative to living costs. Who knew the belligerent bastards have just protected their members and not robbed anyone. I didn’t . Every days a learning day. " . When you review the salaries of some union officials you can see how overpaid they are and how little they care for their members. I cannot imagine many members of the travelling public have much sympathy fit them. They are exceptionally well paid and their lifestyle is funded by the travelling public. If they do not like their jobs they can do what everyone else does, just find another . There is no possible justification for paying a tube driver £60000 per annum plus generous perks. These workers are some of the most selfish that exist in society and have no thoughts or concerns for anyone else . Some of their leaders are communists. | |||
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"There is no possible justification for paying a tube driver £60000 per annum plus generous perks." It looks like it's closer to £55,000, but that's still a ludicrous amount of money for just sitting on a chair and pushing buttons in the right order. They should speed up the automation of the rest of the system, and just get rid of drivers all together. | |||
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"Years ago I had major regular run ins with a particularly belligerent union and so therefore had a negative view on all political interference from unions at that time. Still do to a point. The papers are full of how the tube drivers wages have increased by 34% since 2011 and the media saying it’s obscene. I listened to the General secretary of the RMT the other day and he said despite all that fighting and striking the wages of those drivers hasn’t increased in real terms. I looked into this and he’s right in theory because inflation has compounded at 37% over the same time period. Now the papers have complained about that 34% wage increase since 2011 and compared the rest of the British workers have been “good” and received just over 16% . So the tube drivers have more or less stayed where they where but the rest of the British workers have taken a large drop in wages relative to living costs. Who knew the belligerent bastards have just protected their members and not robbed anyone. I didn’t . Every days a learning day. . When you review the salaries of some union officials you can see how overpaid they are and how little they care for their members. I cannot imagine many members of the travelling public have much sympathy fit them. They are exceptionally well paid and their lifestyle is funded by the travelling public. If they do not like their jobs they can do what everyone else does, just find another . There is no possible justification for paying a tube driver £60000 per annum plus generous perks. These workers are some of the most selfish that exist in society and have no thoughts or concerns for anyone else . Some of their leaders are communists. " Good to see you missed the point of the post completely. And as for the tube drivers they haven’t been paid over inflation where as most workers have lost ground to inflation or did you miss that bit? Try reading it again. Look up CEO pay or directors of government institutes such the NHS compared to their average employee. The difference is stark so union bosses’ pay is low in comparison. | |||
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"There is no possible justification for paying a tube driver £60000 per annum plus generous perks. It looks like it's closer to £55,000, but that's still a ludicrous amount of money for just sitting on a chair and pushing buttons in the right order. They should speed up the automation of the rest of the system, and just get rid of drivers all together." You must be on a low wage if you think £55k is ludicrous. The wage is pro rata to everyone else years before and average pay should be at that level. That’s the point. It’s not a high wage. Yes unmanned is fine as long as they put some staff on the trains for security reasons alone. | |||
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"The heroes of 7/7 reduced to being referred to as being selfish because they get paid a decent wage. If you're driving a busy tube, you're responsible for the safe passage of hundreds at a time. That's on your shoulders and I'll tell you what else is on your shoulders, consoling yourself knowing you were driving a tube when you hit a 'jumper'. People throw themselves in front of tube trains at an alarming rate. Most drivers are fortunate, maybe you would be too. Maybe you'd just have to console a colleague who'd seen someone spread out across their train. But that's alright, they're on 55k per year, they're just selfish. I think we need to take a long hard look at ourselves if we really think giving tube drivers 55k per year in a notoriously expensive city is something to be ashamed of. They are not the problem and we shouldn't treat them as such. " . Many workers have to deal with suicides unpleasant as it may be . It is hardly a difficult job and the units appear to be very reluctant to encourage automation. If they are unhappy with their pay why not just leave and go and work elsewhere . ? Maybe we should be training up replacements to take their jobs . Most people in London are paid a lot less than £55,000 and in addition do not receive the generous perks they receive . | |||
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"Good to see you missed the point of the post completely." I got the point of the post I was replying to. "And as for the tube drivers they haven’t been paid over inflation where as most workers have lost ground to inflation ..." If your figures are correct, then yes, tube drivers haven't received an above inflation pay rise. But I think that in a social and moral justice sense, they have received a pay rise of more than double what the average person has. We're all feeling pressure on our funds, but it seems that tube drivers are feeling it significantly less than others. When you add to that the fact that tube drivers are obscenely overpaid to start with, I can see why many people have little sympathy with them. I've had experience with unions in Germany, which do an excellent job of maintaining workers benefits without being overly-ambitious. Over there the public accept the odd strike because they know that, if the unions have gone that far, the workers must really be in need. When the transport workers do strike, they generally continue to run the service, but just refuse to collect fares. That all said, it's something of a distraction, since the current strike isn't about pay, it's about pensions and working conditions. | |||
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"There is no possible justification for paying a tube driver £60000 per annum plus generous perks. It looks like it's closer to £55,000, but that's still a ludicrous amount of money for just sitting on a chair and pushing buttons in the right order. They should speed up the automation of the rest of the system, and just get rid of drivers all together. You must be on a low wage if you think £55k is ludicrous. The wage is pro rata to everyone else years before and average pay should be at that level. That’s the point. It’s not a high wage. Yes unmanned is fine as long as they put some staff on the trains for security reasons alone. " . Anyone living in London would regard £55000 as being a high wage . To check just walk into any office and ask the ordinary staff what they are earning. | |||
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"You must be on a low wage if you think £55k is ludicrous. The wage is pro rata to everyone else years before and average pay should be at that level. That’s the point. It’s not a high wage." I think it is a high wage for the task performed. London bus drivers get around £30,000, which seems not unreasonable to me. I would argue that driving a bus is a much more complex and involved job that operating a train. "Yes unmanned is fine as long as they put some staff on the trains for security reasons alone." A more sensible route I think would be to let the trains run automatically, and have staff on each station platform to open and close the doors. | |||
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"Are the railways still privatised? or are they back in public domain ." The London Underground system has been state owned since nationalisation in 1948. The Waterloo and City line used to be a normal rail line (privatised), until it became an underground line in 1994. | |||
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"You must be on a low wage if you think £55k is ludicrous. The wage is pro rata to everyone else years before and average pay should be at that level. That’s the point. It’s not a high wage. I think it is a high wage for the task performed. London bus drivers get around £30,000, which seems not unreasonable to me. I would argue that driving a bus is a much more complex and involved job that operating a train. Yes unmanned is fine as long as they put some staff on the trains for security reasons alone. A more sensible route I think would be to let the trains run automatically, and have staff on each station platform to open and close the doors." I had to help a guard throw a guy of a train who was on something and randomly hitting people. A female friend of mine was r4ped on a train who’s guard was not present that night. Having someone in the station is pointless. A guard would have stopped the guy even attempting the attack. You approach this as a male who is probably not as vulnerable to attack. | |||
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"Good to see you missed the point of the post completely. I got the point of the post I was replying to. And as for the tube drivers they haven’t been paid over inflation where as most workers have lost ground to inflation ... If your figures are correct, then yes, tube drivers haven't received an above inflation pay rise. But I think that in a social and moral justice sense, they have received a pay rise of more than double what the average person has. We're all feeling pressure on our funds, but it seems that tube drivers are feeling it significantly less than others. When you add to that the fact that tube drivers are obscenely overpaid to start with, I can see why many people have little sympathy with them. I've had experience with unions in Germany, which do an excellent job of maintaining workers benefits without being overly-ambitious. Over there the public accept the odd strike because they know that, if the unions have gone that far, the workers must really be in need. When the transport workers do strike, they generally continue to run the service, but just refuse to collect fares. That all said, it's something of a distraction, since the current strike isn't about pay, it's about pensions and working conditions." I wasn’t talking at any point about the threatened strike so it is not a distraction point at all. What you are also failing to see is the bus drivers used to be on similar money didn’t they? The point is whilst boardroom pay and that of the likes of senior staff in organisations such as the NHS, the unskilled private workers pay and the low government workers pay has fallen around 20% over the same period. The train drivers are not overpaid at all. They have just kept with inflation. Truck drivers earning £50-60k aren’t classed as overpaid so why is someone with hundreds of lives to take care off over paid? The fact they have received double the rise of others is the most important point because they have not taken a pay cut as everyone else has. The others just to stay the same as thirty years ago should also have had an increase of 34%. Thirty years ago the drivers were on average pay they are. The fact is that the rate should be average pay for the bus drivers too. All the promises from governments have proved to be worthless as the lower paid workers of this country are very much worse off than they were. | |||
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"You approach this as a male who is probably not as vulnerable to attack. " I approach this as a person that has used the London Underground, and is aware that at present there are no staff on it at all. Guards were phased out from the London Underground 22 years ago. Yes, there's a driver up front, but he's locked in his cabin, and is unable to leave it, even if he did become aware of an incident on-board. The idea of automatic trains with station-bound staff would actually be safer than the current arrangement, as the station staff member would have more scope to intervene if he didn't have the train to worry about. | |||
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"I wasn’t talking at any point about the threatened strike so it is not a distraction point at all." In that case I have misunderstood your original post. Could you let me have the source for that 37% inflation since 2011 figure? "Truck drivers earning £50-60k aren’t classed as overpaid so why is someone with hundreds of lives to take care off over paid?" I don't think lorry drivers are overpaid, but I do think that they have a much more difficult job. They have to operate their vehicles in a very complex environment, they have the physical work of loading and unloading, and they have to be away from home for days at a time. Underground trains may have hundreds of people on-board, but their safety is ensured by the track systems, not the driver. BTW. All of my posts have been about the London Underground. Other networks are much more complex, and should be treated differently. | |||
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"You approach this as a male who is probably not as vulnerable to attack. I approach this as a person that has used the London Underground, and is aware that at present there are no staff on it at all. Guards were phased out from the London Underground 22 years ago. Yes, there's a driver up front, but he's locked in his cabin, and is unable to leave it, even if he did become aware of an incident on-board. The idea of automatic trains with station-bound staff would actually be safer than the current arrangement, as the station staff member would have more scope to intervene if he didn't have the train to worry about." You’re right and I was including the overland but a driver can communicate an ind indent in progress if he’s aware . If someone just walks off the train having someone at t door won’t stop them as the guy can’t be at every door can he. The driver can lock the doors . | |||
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"I wasn’t talking at any point about the threatened strike so it is not a distraction point at all. In that case I have misunderstood your original post. Could you let me have the source for that 37% inflation since 2011 figure? Truck drivers earning £50-60k aren’t classed as overpaid so why is someone with hundreds of lives to take care off over paid? I don't think lorry drivers are overpaid, but I do think that they have a much more difficult job. They have to operate their vehicles in a very complex environment, they have the physical work of loading and unloading, and they have to be away from home for days at a time. Underground trains may have hundreds of people on-board, but their safety is ensured by the track systems, not the driver. BTW. All of my posts have been about the London Underground. Other networks are much more complex, and should be treated differently." It’s a long time since lorry drivers were working hard unloading trucks as health and safety mostly keeps them from the load area . They are now all similar to container drivers and only open the doors or the curtains. Obviously a few roping and sheeting guys remain so I’ll not include them. As for other networks the RMT does represent train drivers not just tube but the tube was the focus of the point. The 37% was from a data site on inflation which I didn’t keep sorry. Feel free to Google your own numbers . That all I did when he made the statement . I was cynical too . | |||
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"It’s a long time since lorry drivers were working hard unloading trucks as health and safety mostly keeps them from the load area." I was assuming that £50k - £60k was for the top end of drivers, ropers and sheeters, and tanker drivers. I would expect curtain-sider drivers to get less. "The 37% was from a data site on inflation which I didn’t keep sorry. Feel free to Google your own numbers . That all I did when he made the statement . I was cynical too . " I have now taken a look, and the numbers I come up with are 27.98% (from inflationtool.com), and 19% (from the Bank of England, up to the end of 2021). I think the difference here comes because inflation has risen dramatically in the past 4 months. If I'm correct, that means that in January, inflation over 11 years was 19% while (if the papers can be believed) London Underground drivers had received a 34% pay raise. If those figures are right, that would paint a very different picture of union involvement. | |||
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"... but a driver can communicate an incident in progress if he’s aware ." At the moment, he won't be aware as he doesn't have cameras in each carriage. Once they have installed cameras in all the trains, a platform manager could easily be given screens to watch them all for each incoming train. And since he would be responsible for opening the doors, he could potentially hold the train until support arrives. | |||
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"It’s a long time since lorry drivers were working hard unloading trucks as health and safety mostly keeps them from the load area. I was assuming that £50k - £60k was for the top end of drivers, ropers and sheeters, and tanker drivers. I would expect curtain-sider drivers to get less. The 37% was from a data site on inflation which I didn’t keep sorry. Feel free to Google your own numbers . That all I did when he made the statement . I was cynical too . I have now taken a look, and the numbers I come up with are 27.98% (from inflationtool.com), and 19% (from the Bank of England, up to the end of 2021). I think the difference here comes because inflation has risen dramatically in the past 4 months. If I'm correct, that means that in January, inflation over 11 years was 19% while (if the papers can be believed) London Underground drivers had received a 34% pay raise. If those figures are right, that would paint a very different picture of union involvement." I’m out now but will see if I can find the site later. As I said I was t looking to support his claim I was looking to dismiss it but was surprised. The dock workers cost my business a lot of money back the days of the national labour scheme. So as I said I wasn’t looking to agree but he made a very compelling point. If however you take your own calculation that’s still nearly double.the average wage increase. Tanker drivers were earning £45 k plus 25 years ago as were car delivery drivers . The tankers had a race to the outsourcing bottom . Container and trailer drivers were on a par with each other but £800 a week wasn’t impossible with overtime. Flat bed that’s a take your pick based on the employer. Seed merchant, steel or farming a pittance. Specialist STG loads probably much better. | |||
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"Years ago I had major regular run ins with a particularly belligerent union and so therefore had a negative view on all political interference from unions at that time. Still do to a point. The papers are full of how the tube drivers wages have increased by 34% since 2011 and the media saying it’s obscene. I listened to the General secretary of the RMT the other day and he said despite all that fighting and striking the wages of those drivers hasn’t increased in real terms. I looked into this and he’s right in theory because inflation has compounded at 37% over the same time period. Now the papers have complained about that 34% wage increase since 2011 and compared the rest of the British workers have been “good” and received just over 16% . So the tube drivers have more or less stayed where they where but the rest of the British workers have taken a large drop in wages relative to living costs. Who knew the belligerent bastards have just protected their members and not robbed anyone. I didn’t . Every days a learning day. . When you review the salaries of some union officials you can see how overpaid they are and how little they care for their members. I cannot imagine many members of the travelling public have much sympathy fit them. They are exceptionally well paid and their lifestyle is funded by the travelling public. If they do not like their jobs they can do what everyone else does, just find another . There is no possible justification for paying a tube driver £60000 per annum plus generous perks. These workers are some of the most selfish that exist in society and have no thoughts or concerns for anyone else . Some of their leaders are communists. " Just for clarity, unions should not negotiate the best possible pay and conditions that they should for their members? Someone who runs an organisation of that size should have a low salary? Conversely, companies should be free to pay minimum wage whilst CEOs award themselves huge sums, even if their companies are failing? Interesting position, bit not altogether surprising from you. I do wonder who you really are and what you actually do. | |||
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"If a job's salary raise doesn't match inflation, the only thing it means is that the demand for that job has reduced or the supply has vastly increased. In this case, I think it's the former. We should invest more on driverless trains instead." We have a problem then as the vast majority of jobs haven’t kept with inflation of the average is half of inflation over 10 years. Do you think most workers jobs are not in demand now? | |||
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"If a job's salary raise doesn't match inflation, the only thing it means is that the demand for that job has reduced or the supply has vastly increased. In this case, I think it's the former. We should invest more on driverless trains instead. We have a problem then as the vast majority of jobs haven’t kept with inflation of the average is half of inflation over 10 years. Do you think most workers jobs are not in demand now? " Where did you get those numbers from? The chart in this article says otherwise: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60373405 And the chart only covers regular pay without bonuses. Inflation seems to have overshot average pay only in few months including the lost couple of months. Eventually the wage rise will catch-up. | |||
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"If a job's salary raise doesn't match inflation, the only thing it means is that the demand for that job has reduced or the supply has vastly increased. In this case, I think it's the former. We should invest more on driverless trains instead. We have a problem then as the vast majority of jobs haven’t kept with inflation of the average is half of inflation over 10 years. Do you think most workers jobs are not in demand now? Where did you get those numbers from? The chart in this article says otherwise: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60373405 And the chart only covers regular pay without bonuses. Inflation seems to have overshot average pay only in few months including the lost couple of months. Eventually the wage rise will catch-up." Google the inflation of RPI from 2011 to 2022.  .
You will find ranges between 29 and 34% as an average variable by start date.
If it was at todays rate it would top 100% compound so no it’s not todays rate.
The average rise in wages for workers in the U.K. over the same period has been 16.4% .
The reason it came to light is that the tube drivers are one of the very few workers who’s wages have kept up with inflation. The rest of the U.K. is 15-20% worse off.
The top 5% of earners however have done rather better.
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"If a job's salary raise doesn't match inflation, the only thing it means is that the demand for that job has reduced or the supply has vastly increased. In this case, I think it's the former. We should invest more on driverless trains instead. We have a problem then as the vast majority of jobs haven’t kept with inflation of the average is half of inflation over 10 years. Do you think most workers jobs are not in demand now? Where did you get those numbers from? The chart in this article says otherwise: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60373405 And the chart only covers regular pay without bonuses. Inflation seems to have overshot average pay only in few months including the lost couple of months. Eventually the wage rise will catch-up. Google the inflation of RPI from 2011 to 2022. .
You will find ranges between 29 and 34% as an average variable by start date.
If it was at todays rate it would top 100% compound so no it’s not todays rate.
The average rise in wages for workers in the U.K. over the same period has been 16.4% .
The reason it came to light is that the tube drivers are one of the very few workers who’s wages have kept up with inflation. The rest of the U.K. is 15-20% worse off.
The top 5% of earners however have done rather better.
"I couldn't find any link with the data you mentioned. The bbc link I provided has monthly data points on both CPI and wages. It also shows how the wages shot up massively around the end of pandemic that resulted in the great resignation (which I personally feel is the wrong term because people didn't just resign. They got into jobs with better pay). Even if we move to using RPI, it shouldn't really make a big difference. | |||
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"If a job's salary raise doesn't match inflation, the only thing it means is that the demand for that job has reduced or the supply has vastly increased. In this case, I think it's the former. We should invest more on driverless trains instead. We have a problem then as the vast majority of jobs haven’t kept with inflation of the average is half of inflation over 10 years. Do you think most workers jobs are not in demand now? Where did you get those numbers from? The chart in this article says otherwise: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60373405 And the chart only covers regular pay without bonuses. Inflation seems to have overshot average pay only in few months including the lost couple of months. Eventually the wage rise will catch-up. Google the inflation of RPI from 2011 to 2022. .
You will find ranges between 29 and 34% as an average variable by start date.
If it was at todays rate it would top 100% compound so no it’s not todays rate.
The average rise in wages for workers in the U.K. over the same period has been 16.4% .
The reason it came to light is that the tube drivers are one of the very few workers who’s wages have kept up with inflation. The rest of the U.K. is 15-20% worse off.
The top 5% of earners however have done rather better.
I couldn't find any link with the data you mentioned. The bbc link I provided has monthly data points on both CPI and wages. It also shows how the wages shot up massively around the end of pandemic that resulted in the great resignation (which I personally feel is the wrong term because people didn't just resign. They got into jobs with better pay). Even if we move to using RPI, it shouldn't really make a big difference."You can’t find a RPI calculator that’s nonsense there are dozens available. Do it yourself as it’s then your figures not mine. One came in at 43% which I discounted as too extreme, People resigned . It’s estimated a few hundred£ thousand older workers just quit so they didn’t move to other jobs. CPI and RPI are not the same thing so would indeed make a huge difference as CPI which the Bank of England uses does not include house mortgage interest or loan payments so is way below RPI which is what people actually pay. CPI over the same 10 year period is around 19% so at least 10% less than RPI. People will say well my house is worth more and yes it may be but you can’t buy anything unless you sell that house and downsize or move to a cheaper area to release that wealth which someone else then has to take debt on to pay for. Inheritance is great but getting on the ladder or being an orphan is pretty tough. Older people retiring early coupled with EU workers leaving has lead to a rise in wages in some industries but not many. The basic facts are that most working people are as I said very much worse off than they were 10 years ago. The rich who own more property outright which isn’t their main residence and also own the vast bulk of business shares have done rather better. | |||
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"If a job's salary raise doesn't match inflation, the only thing it means is that the demand for that job has reduced or the supply has vastly increased. In this case, I think it's the former. We should invest more on driverless trains instead. We have a problem then as the vast majority of jobs haven’t kept with inflation of the average is half of inflation over 10 years. Do you think most workers jobs are not in demand now? Where did you get those numbers from? The chart in this article says otherwise: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60373405 And the chart only covers regular pay without bonuses. Inflation seems to have overshot average pay only in few months including the lost couple of months. Eventually the wage rise will catch-up. Google the inflation of RPI from 2011 to 2022. .
You will find ranges between 29 and 34% as an average variable by start date.
If it was at todays rate it would top 100% compound so no it’s not todays rate.
The average rise in wages for workers in the U.K. over the same period has been 16.4% .
The reason it came to light is that the tube drivers are one of the very few workers who’s wages have kept up with inflation. The rest of the U.K. is 15-20% worse off.
The top 5% of earners however have done rather better.
I couldn't find any link with the data you mentioned. The bbc link I provided has monthly data points on both CPI and wages. It also shows how the wages shot up massively around the end of pandemic that resulted in the great resignation (which I personally feel is the wrong term because people didn't just resign. They got into jobs with better pay). Even if we move to using RPI, it shouldn't really make a big difference.
You can’t find a RPI calculator that’s nonsense there are dozens available. Do it yourself as it’s then your figures not mine. One came in at 43% which I discounted as too extreme,
People resigned . It’s estimated a few hundred£ thousand older workers just quit so they didn’t move to other jobs.
CPI and RPI are not the same thing so would indeed make a huge difference as CPI which the Bank of England uses does not include house mortgage interest or loan payments so is way below RPI which is what people actually pay.
CPI over the same 10 year period is around 19% so at least 10% less than RPI.
People will say well my house is worth more and yes it may be but you can’t buy anything unless you sell that house and downsize or move to a cheaper area to release that wealth which someone else then has to take debt on to pay for. Inheritance is great but getting on the ladder or being an orphan is pretty tough.
Older people retiring early coupled with EU workers leaving has lead to a rise in wages in some industries but not many. The basic facts are that most working people are as I said very much worse off than they were 10 years ago.
The rich who own more property outright which isn’t their main residence and also own the vast bulk of business shares have done rather better.
"People are right when they say the house is worth more. Selling or not selling doesn't matter. Most people rent anyway. Rich people owning properties outright is also a myth. Most of them take mortgages as their money makes more returns elsewhere. I personally prefer CPI to be a better measure and average ages have increased along with inflation. | |||
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" Look up CEO pay or directors of government institutes such the NHS compared to their average employee. The difference is stark so union bosses’ pay is low in comparison. " The key difference between a CEO and a union baron is usually competence. To be a CEO you either found and then grow a company or you are appointed based on experience, competence, market knowledge and insight and a variety of skills from financial literacy, strategy, operating model development and the various things you learn on an MBA. You also tend to have a shelf life as a CEO of a few years before you either burn out or the market changes and you are yesterday’s man. To be a union baron, you usually are a commie gob shite and rabble rouser at a local level, you engineer your way from a shop floor steward screaming “you have changed the biscuits we eat in our tea break without consultation! Right, that’s it brothers, one out all out” who makes a bit of a name for themselves at a regional level and then a national one where you are sinecured for life, often with tied housing on the cheap, loads of side perks, and a salary that is totally out of kilter with the skills and competence of the post holder. If you have ever listened to the likes of Serewotka or Cortes you could not accuse either of any semblence of intelligence, they seem to be animated only by an over developed sense of self importance, rage, and envy tempered only by their self-entitlement. I have met, and dealt with many good and balanced union reps at a local level when dealing with disciplinary meetings, redundancies and restructures, wage bargaining and the like and most have been pragmatic and level headed. As has been said, most, when they get to higher levels, are only focussed on extreme left wing politics and a burning desire to destroy the “bastard tories”* * bastard tories to these loons are anyone that doesnt share their world view irrespective of their actual political alignment. | |||
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"If a job's salary raise doesn't match inflation, the only thing it means is that the demand for that job has reduced or the supply has vastly increased. In this case, I think it's the former. We should invest more on driverless trains instead. We have a problem then as the vast majority of jobs haven’t kept with inflation of the average is half of inflation over 10 years. Do you think most workers jobs are not in demand now? Where did you get those numbers from? The chart in this article says otherwise: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60373405 And the chart only covers regular pay without bonuses. Inflation seems to have overshot average pay only in few months including the lost couple of months. Eventually the wage rise will catch-up. Google the inflation of RPI from 2011 to 2022. .
You will find ranges between 29 and 34% as an average variable by start date.
If it was at todays rate it would top 100% compound so no it’s not todays rate.
The average rise in wages for workers in the U.K. over the same period has been 16.4% .
The reason it came to light is that the tube drivers are one of the very few workers who’s wages have kept up with inflation. The rest of the U.K. is 15-20% worse off.
The top 5% of earners however have done rather better.
I couldn't find any link with the data you mentioned. The bbc link I provided has monthly data points on both CPI and wages. It also shows how the wages shot up massively around the end of pandemic that resulted in the great resignation (which I personally feel is the wrong term because people didn't just resign. They got into jobs with better pay). Even if we move to using RPI, it shouldn't really make a big difference.
You can’t find a RPI calculator that’s nonsense there are dozens available. Do it yourself as it’s then your figures not mine. One came in at 43% which I discounted as too extreme,
People resigned . It’s estimated a few hundred£ thousand older workers just quit so they didn’t move to other jobs.
CPI and RPI are not the same thing so would indeed make a huge difference as CPI which the Bank of England uses does not include house mortgage interest or loan payments so is way below RPI which is what people actually pay.
CPI over the same 10 year period is around 19% so at least 10% less than RPI.
People will say well my house is worth more and yes it may be but you can’t buy anything unless you sell that house and downsize or move to a cheaper area to release that wealth which someone else then has to take debt on to pay for. Inheritance is great but getting on the ladder or being an orphan is pretty tough.
Older people retiring early coupled with EU workers leaving has lead to a rise in wages in some industries but not many. The basic facts are that most working people are as I said very much worse off than they were 10 years ago.
The rich who own more property outright which isn’t their main residence and also own the vast bulk of business shares have done rather better.
People are right when they say the house is worth more. Selling or not selling doesn't matter. Most people rent anyway. Rich people owning properties outright is also a myth. Most of them take mortgages as their money makes more returns elsewhere. I personally prefer CPI to be a better measure and average ages have increased along with inflation."CPI simply does not reflect the money people pay out. It is bias towards asset and cash cost so not true for 90% of the population or are you saying everyone owns their houses and cars outright? The top 5% of the wealthiest people in this country own up to 80% of land property value and shares . When I mention rich I’m talking the top 1% who’s incomes are in excess of £2m. This bracket also own 50% of the land in the U.K. and you think they need a mortgage. They may borrow to fund additional property but don’t “need” to mortgage their homes. A lot of people are forced to rent because they can’t afford to buy. Gone are the days if s house being worth three times an average salary. Wages have increased at half the rate of inflation over the period of the last 11 years that’s just fact which is undeniable. It’s not an opinion. One last point you said selling or not selling doesn't matter? Have you tried buying the weekly shop at Tescos with a brick? If you don’t have cash you can’t buy anything no matter how many millions your house is worth. | |||
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" Look up CEO pay or directors of government institutes such the NHS compared to their average employee. The difference is stark so union bosses’ pay is low in comparison. The key difference between a CEO and a union baron is usually competence. To be a CEO you either found and then grow a company or you are appointed based on experience, competence, market knowledge and insight and a variety of skills from financial literacy, strategy, operating model development and the various things you learn on an MBA. You also tend to have a shelf life as a CEO of a few years before you either burn out or the market changes and you are yesterday’s man. To be a union baron, you usually are a commie gob shite and rabble rouser at a local level, you engineer your way from a shop floor steward screaming “you have changed the biscuits we eat in our tea break without consultation! Right, that’s it brothers, one out all out” who makes a bit of a name for themselves at a regional level and then a national one where you are sinecured for life, often with tied housing on the cheap, loads of side perks, and a salary that is totally out of kilter with the skills and competence of the post holder. If you have ever listened to the likes of Serewotka or Cortes you could not accuse either of any semblence of intelligence, they seem to be animated only by an over developed sense of self importance, rage, and envy tempered only by their self-entitlement. I have met, and dealt with many good and balanced union reps at a local level when dealing with disciplinary meetings, redundancies and restructures, wage bargaining and the like and most have been pragmatic and level headed. As has been said, most, when they get to higher levels, are only focussed on extreme left wing politics and a burning desire to destroy the “bastard tories”* * bastard tories to these loons are anyone that doesnt share their world view irrespective of their actual political alignment. " You’ve not met or dealt with many CEOs have you. 
Some as you say are very smart indeed and I’ve dealt with those who I admire. Others have been bordering stupid in their ability and have achieved the role certainly in the public sector but also many in the private sector by longevity of service not ability.
They stay for three years max in many cases due to a lack of impact or ability.
The first year they are finding their feet so are given leeway. The second year they implement their policies and changes. The third year they work on an exit as the policies are found to not be working. It’s therefore exit time with a pay off to make it easier for all. It’s nothing to do with burn out if they leave so quickly . It’s failure or a better offer has been made.
I’ve been involved in takeovers where we’ve sacked the incumbent CEOs for being quite simply useless. It wasn’t called being sacked.
One of the prime reasons for the strife in the 70s was not just the belligerent unions it was also the incompetent management of many companies.
You seem to think I’m blindly pro the unions and I am indeed where they provide protection for their workers . I do not support their involvement in politics or their influence in the Labour Party just for the record.
I am also against the £80m a year backers of Boris. Parties should be state funded to limits and have no external funding. To may politicians are for sale.
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" CPI simply does not reflect the money people pay out. It is bias towards asset and cash cost so not true for 90% of the population or are you saying everyone owns their houses and cars outright? The top 5% of the wealthiest people in this country own up to 80% of land property value and shares . When I mention rich I’m talking the top 1% who’s incomes are in excess of £2m. This bracket also own 50% of the land in the U.K. and you think they need a mortgage. They may borrow to fund additional property but don’t “need” to mortgage their homes. A lot of people are forced to rent because they can’t afford to buy. Gone are the days if s house being worth three times an average salary. Wages have increased at half the rate of inflation over the period of the last 11 years that’s just fact which is undeniable. It’s not an opinion. One last point you said selling or not selling doesn't matter? Have you tried buying the weekly shop at Tescos with a brick? If you don’t have cash you can’t buy anything no matter how many millions your house is worth. " Money payout is not a problem if they are paying out to own an asset. There is a difference between spending money on food, fuel, rent and spending money on buying a property. Buying property is an investment. So I still stick with CPI and wages have largely stayed above CPI. And the Tesco example doesn't make any sense. If we go by that argument, we need to count stock prices too for inflation. Housing crisis is not a UK specific problem. The raise in population coupled with the fact that more and more people prefer living alone, exerts a high demand on houses. It's just something that is bound to happen until the population stagnates. It has affected every country. At least you can rent easily here. In places like Zurich, it's not even easy to find a house for rent. So RPI for any country should be higher than its CPI. The gap seems to be pretty much for UK and France. At least UK has better employment rate compared to France and less taxes. | |||
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"Buying property is an investment." Not if you're going to live in it. An investment is something you buy with the intention of selling it later at a higher price, meaning that you get the increase in value in your pocket. Buying a house to live in is just catering to a basic need. If you ever sell it, you'll just have to use the money to get another one to live in. | |||
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"Buying property is an investment. Not if you're going to live in it. An investment is something you buy with the intention of selling it later at a higher price, meaning that you get the increase in value in your pocket. Buying a house to live in is just catering to a basic need. If you ever sell it, you'll just have to use the money to get another one to live in." Thank you This | |||
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"Buying property is an investment. Not if you're going to live in it. An investment is something you buy with the intention of selling it later at a higher price, meaning that you get the increase in value in your pocket. Buying a house to live in is just catering to a basic need. If you ever sell it, you'll just have to use the money to get another one to live in." Maybe investment is a wrong word. But someone who is buying a house is not losing its value as an asset. And if you sell it, you do not have to buy another one to live in it. You can rent another one instead. | |||
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"Years ago I had major regular run ins with a particularly belligerent union and so therefore had a negative view on all political interference from unions at that time. Still do to a point. The papers are full of how the tube drivers wages have increased by 34% since 2011 and the media saying it’s obscene. I listened to the General secretary of the RMT the other day and he said despite all that fighting and striking the wages of those drivers hasn’t increased in real terms. I looked into this and he’s right in theory because inflation has compounded at 37% over the same time period. Now the papers have complained about that 34% wage increase since 2011 and compared the rest of the British workers have been “good” and received just over 16% . So the tube drivers have more or less stayed where they where but the rest of the British workers have taken a large drop in wages relative to living costs. Who knew the belligerent bastards have just protected their members and not robbed anyone. I didn’t . Every days a learning day. " . Interesting post and even more interesting to see the broad media attack that the industrial action is wrong. As a country, how have we allowed nominal wages to fall so drastically to the point that an “inflation equalling” pay rise is seen as being unreasonable. | |||
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" Look up CEO pay or directors of government institutes such the NHS compared to their average employee. The difference is stark so union bosses’ pay is low in comparison. The key difference between a CEO and a union baron is usually competence. To be a CEO you either found and then grow a company or you are appointed based on experience, competence, market knowledge and insight and a variety of skills from financial literacy, strategy, operating model development and the various things you learn on an MBA. You also tend to have a shelf life as a CEO of a few years before you either burn out or the market changes and you are yesterday’s man. To be a union baron, you usually are a commie gob shite and rabble rouser at a local level, you engineer your way from a shop floor steward screaming “you have changed the biscuits we eat in our tea break without consultation! Right, that’s it brothers, one out all out” who makes a bit of a name for themselves at a regional level and then a national one where you are sinecured for life, often with tied housing on the cheap, loads of side perks, and a salary that is totally out of kilter with the skills and competence of the post holder. If you have ever listened to the likes of Serewotka or Cortes you could not accuse either of any semblence of intelligence, they seem to be animated only by an over developed sense of self importance, rage, and envy tempered only by their self-entitlement. I have met, and dealt with many good and balanced union reps at a local level when dealing with disciplinary meetings, redundancies and restructures, wage bargaining and the like and most have been pragmatic and level headed. As has been said, most, when they get to higher levels, are only focussed on extreme left wing politics and a burning desire to destroy the “bastard tories”* * bastard tories to these loons are anyone that doesnt share their world view irrespective of their actual political alignment. " Ah yes the good old superiority complex….if you are as experienced and capable as you profess to be then why do you feel the need to trot out your pejorative and old fashioned views on a swingers site?  | |||
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" Look up CEO pay or directors of government institutes such the NHS compared to their average employee. The difference is stark so union bosses’ pay is low in comparison. The key difference between a CEO and a union baron is usually competence. To be a CEO you either found and then grow a company or you are appointed based on experience, competence, market knowledge and insight and a variety of skills from financial literacy, strategy, operating model development and the various things you learn on an MBA. You also tend to have a shelf life as a CEO of a few years before you either burn out or the market changes and you are yesterday’s man. To be a union baron, you usually are a commie gob shite and rabble rouser at a local level, you engineer your way from a shop floor steward screaming “you have changed the biscuits we eat in our tea break without consultation! Right, that’s it brothers, one out all out” who makes a bit of a name for themselves at a regional level and then a national one where you are sinecured for life, often with tied housing on the cheap, loads of side perks, and a salary that is totally out of kilter with the skills and competence of the post holder. If you have ever listened to the likes of Serewotka or Cortes you could not accuse either of any semblence of intelligence, they seem to be animated only by an over developed sense of self importance, rage, and envy tempered only by their self-entitlement. I have met, and dealt with many good and balanced union reps at a local level when dealing with disciplinary meetings, redundancies and restructures, wage bargaining and the like and most have been pragmatic and level headed. As has been said, most, when they get to higher levels, are only focussed on extreme left wing politics and a burning desire to destroy the “bastard tories”* * bastard tories to these loons are anyone that doesnt share their world view irrespective of their actual political alignment. " . A great response and the best one so far. Well written and very informative. | |||
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" You’ve not met or dealt with many CEOs have you. "Plenty. And as you point out, some were utter bell ends who i cannot for the life of me figure out how they got the job (with one notable exception - he was “Mr Committee” with an OBE who had been sinecured and shuffled from post to post in the NFP sector and stayed in each role only long enough to either do some real damage or be found out). Others were truely excellent. " Some as you say are very smart indeed and I’ve dealt with those who I admire. Others have been bordering stupid in their ability and have achieved the role certainly in the public sector but also many in the private sector by longevity of service not ability. " " One of the prime reasons for the strife in the 70s was not just the belligerent unions it was also the incompetent management of many companies. You seem to think I’m blindly pro the unions and I am indeed where they provide protection for their workers . I do not support their involvement in politics or their influence in the Labour Party just for the record. I am also against the £80m a year backers of Boris. Parties should be state funded to limits and have no external funding. To may politicians are for sale. " There is always a role for the staff support element of a TU as staff do need advice and support in a variety of circumstances, but I do think that there need to be restrictions on striking in key industries (like rail or any other infrastructure) and for key reforms such as not allowing more than a certain percentage of a workforce to belong to a single union and a a ban on unions being actively involved, or passively funding, political activity or politicians. | |||
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" You’ve not met or dealt with many CEOs have you.
Plenty. And as you point out, some were utter bell ends who i cannot for the life of me figure out how they got the job (with one notable exception - he was “Mr Committee” with an OBE who had been sinecured and shuffled from post to post in the NFP sector and stayed in each role only long enough to either do some real damage or be found out). Others were truely excellent.
Some as you say are very smart indeed and I’ve dealt with those who I admire. Others have been bordering stupid in their ability and have achieved the role certainly in the public sector but also many in the private sector by longevity of service not ability.
One of the prime reasons for the strife in the 70s was not just the belligerent unions it was also the incompetent management of many companies.
You seem to think I’m blindly pro the unions and I am indeed where they provide protection for their workers . I do not support their involvement in politics or their influence in the Labour Party just for the record.
I am also against the £80m a year backers of Boris. Parties should be state funded to limits and have no external funding. To may politicians are for sale.
There is always a role for the staff support element of a TU as staff do need advice and support in a variety of circumstances, but I do think that there need to be restrictions on striking in key industries (like rail or any other infrastructure) and for key reforms such as not allowing more than a certain percentage of a workforce to belong to a single union and a a ban on unions being actively involved, or passively funding, political activity or politicians. "I tend to agree with this in principal . The thing for me would be in rail by all means industrial action but just how do they protest. Someone mentioned the Germans don’t take the ticket cash which is great on say the tube but as most rail tickets are electronic that’s not really going to have much of an impact. I think stoping trains at weekends would perhaps have less impact and avoid a lot of workers losing out but then what about care workers and hospital staff etc. I do believe the ultimate threat should be the withdrawal of labour but at what level I honestly don’t know. As for critical infrastructure that should never have ended up in the private sector . Dividends over investment for many years has stripped the wealth in the system. ( I made good money out of it but can now see it was a bad idea long term) Should wages keep up with inflation or not? That’s the key issue. Should we just accept we are going to be worse off each year? The top 1% of the country have seen their wealth explode during the same time the poorer amongst us have lost out. That’s just wrong regardless of politics. | |||
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"Train drivers ard completely overpaid for the work they they do. The question we should be asking is what is the true worth of a train driver. It is probably about £35,000 per annum and if we take into account the benefits that they currently receive they are probably paid about twice what they are worth. Any train driver who thinks that they are underpaid can always find a job elsewhere. I am sure that that there are plenty of people who would willingly do their job for £35000 per annum. The only bit that needs carefull attention is making sure that you do not stop short at a platform or open doors on the wrong side. The public should not be expected to subsidise overpaid train drivers in a very easy job. It is time we tackled this issue head on and make sure the government win . " Autonomous trains is the next step, once they figured out a few things, then strikes will be a thing of the past. But government is too stupid to embrace the change now, and when it does get implemented in 20 years time it will so expensive that we might as use humans as they are cheaper. So let them have the money, the drivers days are numbered. | |||
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"Autonomous trains is the next step, once they figured out a few things, then strikes will be a thing of the past. But government is too stupid to embrace the change now ..." When the Victoria line was built (back in 1968) it was designed to be fully automated. That had to change when the unions refused to allow it. Is not that government, or anyone in charge, is too stupid to get it done, it's that the unions won't allow it. | |||
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"Autonomous trains is the next step, once they figured out a few things, then strikes will be a thing of the past. But government is too stupid to embrace the change now ... When the Victoria line was built (back in 1968) it was designed to be fully automated. That had to change when the unions refused to allow it. Is not that government, or anyone in charge, is too stupid to get it done, it's that the unions won't allow it." Imagine the union not allowing their members’ jobs to be done away with. Ridiculous!!! | |||
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"Simply just outlaw any strikes where people's day to day activities (freedom) is affected. Train drivers like all other well paid jobs are over paid and do very little for it. Yes it's not fair but that's life. No union in my working life has helped out anyone other than for the easy wins- public services. The private sector, unions are usually align with the company thus instantly losing any power or interest. When was the last time a union fought for those in the private sectors? It will be these people who will have another 2 to 3 hours travelling to their 10 to 12 hour working day who will be affected by the strikes, not TFL. Note, no offers or plans have been put on the table. They're just trying for another easy win. Why should we be the victim? For what it's worth I do hope that we go automated. Before anyone cries safety. Two tube drivers didn't even notice their trains had blown up and tried to carry on, there was strikes for a driver sacked for ignoring a red light, one for being 420 friendly. " “ Simply just outlaw any strikes where people's day to day activities (freedom) is affected”….. Thatcher’s Britain alive and well - especially amongst the so-called libertarians of FAB………… hilarious | |||
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"Simply just outlaw any strikes where people's day to day activities (freedom) is affected. Train drivers like all other well paid jobs are over paid and do very little for it. Yes it's not fair but that's life. No union in my working life has helped out anyone other than for the easy wins- public services. The private sector, unions are usually align with the company thus instantly losing any power or interest. When was the last time a union fought for those in the private sectors? It will be these people who will have another 2 to 3 hours travelling to their 10 to 12 hour working day who will be affected by the strikes, not TFL. Note, no offers or plans have been put on the table. They're just trying for another easy win. Why should we be the victim? For what it's worth I do hope that we go automated. Before anyone cries safety. Two tube drivers didn't even notice their trains had blown up and tried to carry on, there was strikes for a driver sacked for ignoring a red light, one for being 420 friendly. " In the news today the government are considering changing the law to allow agency workers to step in and cover strikes. It won't be for these strikes but maybe in the future. I can maybe see how some basic jobs can be covered but the train driving itself could prove harder | |||
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"Years ago I had major regular run ins with a particularly belligerent union and so therefore had a negative view on all political interference from unions at that time. Still do to a point. The papers are full of how the tube drivers wages have increased by 34% since 2011 and the media saying it’s obscene. I listened to the General secretary of the RMT the other day and he said despite all that fighting and striking the wages of those drivers hasn’t increased in real terms. I looked into this and he’s right in theory because inflation has compounded at 37% over the same time period. Now the papers have complained about that 34% wage increase since 2011 and compared the rest of the British workers have been “good” and received just over 16% . So the tube drivers have more or less stayed where they where but the rest of the British workers have taken a large drop in wages relative to living costs. Who knew the belligerent bastards have just protected their members and not robbed anyone. I didn’t . Every days a learning day. . When you review the salaries of some union officials you can see how overpaid they are and how little they care for their members. I cannot imagine many members of the travelling public have much sympathy fit them. They are exceptionally well paid and their lifestyle is funded by the travelling public. If they do not like their jobs they can do what everyone else does, just find another . There is no possible justification for paying a tube driver £60000 per annum plus generous perks. These workers are some of the most selfish that exist in society and have no thoughts or concerns for anyone else . Some of their leaders are communists. " Tripe | |||
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"Autonomous trains is the next step, once they figured out a few things, then strikes will be a thing of the past. But government is too stupid to embrace the change now ... When the Victoria line was built (back in 1968) it was designed to be fully automated. That had to change when the unions refused to allow it. Is not that government, or anyone in charge, is too stupid to get it done, it's that the unions won't allow it." They are, it happened in the 80’s, this government is seriously incompetent, which has gone off the rails itself. | |||
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"Simply just outlaw any strikes where people's day to day activities (freedom) is affected. Train drivers like all other well paid jobs are over paid and do very little for it. Yes it's not fair but that's life. No union in my working life has helped out anyone other than for the easy wins- public services. The private sector, unions are usually align with the company thus instantly losing any power or interest. When was the last time a union fought for those in the private sectors? It will be these people who will have another 2 to 3 hours travelling to their 10 to 12 hour working day who will be affected by the strikes, not TFL. Note, no offers or plans have been put on the table. They're just trying for another easy win. Why should we be the victim? For what it's worth I do hope that we go automated. Before anyone cries safety. Two tube drivers didn't even notice their trains had blown up and tried to carry on, there was strikes for a driver sacked for ignoring a red light, one for being 420 friendly. " Can I ask your views on partygate? Beacause the biggest dampener on my day to day freedom was lockdown. More so than trains not running for a few days. | |||
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"And so many on here miss the fact that the average pay increases are half of the rate of inflation over the same period. Diverting this to a negative view on unions rather than why is the pay of workers falling. For twelve years this government have been saying they will make us all more prosperous. I think they meant the top 1% because on average most workers are a lot worse off. You will still believe the bullshit and still vote for them despite the actual facts being so clear. " Thats because quite a large proportion of fab members enjoy being fucked... | |||
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