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"When america has a homelessness crisis yet cuba has near zero homelessness, despite the American economic war against it and against its citizens to try to shorten lives and destroy socialism?" Cuba also has a world class national health service and education system. | |||
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 igate amount of tax and waste in the system. If you add up the amount of income tax, NI, VAT, fuel duty, Council Tax, car tax and TV Licence i have to pay (as a higher rate tax payer) I return about 58pence in every £1 I earn back to the government. When you add CGT and dividend taxes it is even higher.
In return for that I get an NHS that is treated like a state religion and compared to other social healthcare system is utterly fucked (and not through a lack of funding - I worked in it for a good few years at a senior level and it is so neolithically incompetently run as to be an embarrassment), police that dont solve crimes, a prison system that is too small to incarcerate serious criminals for the duration of their woefully short sentences (life should mean life for those that kill and seriously harm, not 17 years of a 25 year sentence in most cases) and an armed for es that are too small to be truely effective. The first role of any government is to defend the borders and the integrity of the nation it governs and to ensure safety in the public space. Its not to be a nanny that is assumed to take responsibility for every aspect of citizens lives to the point we no longer have a societal concept of individual responsibility and accountability. To that end, the amount that was spunked on Covid and the printing of money to “ease” the spend burden (without any link to growth in GDP) is exactly why we have a cost of living crisis. That, and the crazy eco-loon chasing the Carbon Net Zero agenda that has halted an energy independence strategy pushing up your utility costs. Stop spunking money on unstable wind and start fracking and watch your energy bills fall by 1/3rd. | |||
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"Its the plaintiff cry of socialists when confronted with the failures of socialism: it only failed because the socialist experiment wasn’t socialist enough. How many people have died because of the experiments and pogroms of socialism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and the former Soviet states? " I would not accept the government socialist grant/loan given to the individual to bailout the energy companies then. | |||
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"Its the plaintiff cry of socialists when confronted with the failures of socialism: it only failed because the socialist experiment wasn’t socialist enough. How many people have died because of the experiments and pogroms of socialism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and the former Soviet states? " Socialism works very, very well in most countries and we simply take for granted its benefits. Your parents didn’t have to pay for pre-natal and post-natal care when you were born. They also didn’t have to pay for the hospital room where you were were born or for the midwife who went to their home if you were born at home. From 5 years old you were able to have an education that took you up to 18/19 years old if you wanted. Thanks to a socialist council tax system you are on equal footing with everyone else in your town in that your bins get collected and your refuse dealt with. You don’t have to pay for private security to watch over your house in case of crime or fire because there are Police and Fire Brigades paid for out of a social fund. It’s odd that socialism is often so good that we just take it for granted. Now if only we could get public transport and energy supply in public ownership as well!!! | |||
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"Its the plaintiff cry of socialists when confronted with the failures of socialism: it only failed because the socialist experiment wasn’t socialist enough. How many people have died because of the experiments and pogroms of socialism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and the former Soviet states? " are these socialist or Communist? Tbh, is need to go and find out the difference, but timestamp there is one ... But has any country decided to go full capitalist? The US is hugely protectionalist ... And the state will happily chuck money at businesses ... | |||
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"The problem with socialism, as a former PM pointed out, is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money. Half of the reason why pur economy is fucked is the p igate amount of tax and waste in the system. If you add up the amount of income tax, NI, VAT, fuel duty, Council Tax, car tax and TV Licence i have to pay (as a higher rate tax payer) I return about 58pence in every £1 I earn back to the government. When you add CGT and dividend taxes it is even higher.
In return for that I get an NHS that is treated like a state religion and compared to other social healthcare system is utterly fucked (and not through a lack of funding - I worked in it for a good few years at a senior level and it is so neolithically incompetently run as to be an embarrassment), police that dont solve crimes, a prison system that is too small to incarcerate serious criminals for the duration of their woefully short sentences (life should mean life for those that kill and seriously harm, not 17 years of a 25 year sentence in most cases) and an armed for es that are too small to be truely effective. The first role of any government is to defend the borders and the integrity of the nation it governs and to ensure safety in the public space. Its not to be a nanny that is assumed to take responsibility for every aspect of citizens lives to the point we no longer have a societal concept of individual responsibility and accountability. To that end, the amount that was spunked on Covid and the printing of money to “ease” the spend burden (without any link to growth in GDP) is exactly why we have a cost of living crisis. That, and the crazy eco-loon chasing the Carbon Net Zero agenda that has halted an energy independence strategy pushing up your utility costs. Stop spunking money on unstable wind and start fracking and watch your energy bills fall by 1/3rd."Top post.  | |||
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"The problem with socialism, as a former PM pointed out, is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money. Half of the reason why pur economy is fucked is the p igate amount of tax and waste in the system. If you add up the amount of income tax, NI, VAT, fuel duty, Council Tax, car tax and TV Licence i have to pay (as a higher rate tax payer) I return about 58pence in every £1 I earn back to the government. When you add CGT and dividend taxes it is even higher.
In return for that I get an NHS that is treated like a state religion and compared to other social healthcare system is utterly fucked (and not through a lack of funding - I worked in it for a good few years at a senior level and it is so neolithically incompetently run as to be an embarrassment), police that dont solve crimes, a prison system that is too small to incarcerate serious criminals for the duration of their woefully short sentences (life should mean life for those that kill and seriously harm, not 17 years of a 25 year sentence in most cases) and an armed for es that are too small to be truely effective. The first role of any government is to defend the borders and the integrity of the nation it governs and to ensure safety in the public space. Its not to be a nanny that is assumed to take responsibility for every aspect of citizens lives to the point we no longer have a societal concept of individual responsibility and accountability. To that end, the amount that was spunked on Covid and the printing of money to “ease” the spend burden (without any link to growth in GDP) is exactly why we have a cost of living crisis. That, and the crazy eco-loon chasing the Carbon Net Zero agenda that has halted an energy independence strategy pushing up your utility costs. Stop spunking money on unstable wind and start fracking and watch your energy bills fall by 1/3rd.
Top post. "in not sure how much of this is down to socialism versus capitalism tho. I could probably argue more it's down to our electorial system. Are the Tories socialists now ? | |||
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"The problem with socialism, as a former PM pointed out, is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money. Half of the reason why pur economy is fucked is the p igate amount of tax and waste in the system. If you add up the amount of income tax, NI, VAT, fuel duty, Council Tax, car tax and TV Licence i have to pay (as a higher rate tax payer) I return about 58pence in every £1 I earn back to the government. When you add CGT and dividend taxes it is even higher.
In return for that I get an NHS that is treated like a state religion and compared to other social healthcare system is utterly fucked (and not through a lack of funding - I worked in it for a good few years at a senior level and it is so neolithically incompetently run as to be an embarrassment), police that dont solve crimes, a prison system that is too small to incarcerate serious criminals for the duration of their woefully short sentences (life should mean life for those that kill and seriously harm, not 17 years of a 25 year sentence in most cases) and an armed for es that are too small to be truely effective. The first role of any government is to defend the borders and the integrity of the nation it governs and to ensure safety in the public space. Its not to be a nanny that is assumed to take responsibility for every aspect of citizens lives to the point we no longer have a societal concept of individual responsibility and accountability. To that end, the amount that was spunked on Covid and the printing of money to “ease” the spend burden (without any link to growth in GDP) is exactly why we have a cost of living crisis. That, and the crazy eco-loon chasing the Carbon Net Zero agenda that has halted an energy independence strategy pushing up your utility costs. Stop spunking money on unstable wind and start fracking and watch your energy bills fall by 1/3rd."Ahhhh I smell Brexit | |||
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"Its the plaintiff cry of socialists when confronted with the failures of socialism: it only failed because the socialist experiment wasn’t socialist enough. How many people have died because of the experiments and pogroms of socialism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and the former Soviet states? " Far fewer than capitalism has killed. By a massive scale. Capitalism, imperialism, colonialism, the entire destructions of peoples of the Americas for the needs of profit. Doesn't even compare to those killed by regimes who have called themselves socialist. | |||
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"The problem with socialism, as a former PM pointed out, is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money. Half of the reason why pur economy is fucked is the p igate amount of tax and waste in the system. If you add up the amount of income tax, NI, VAT, fuel duty, Council Tax, car tax and TV Licence i have to pay (as a higher rate tax payer) I return about 58pence in every £1 I earn back to the government. When you add CGT and dividend taxes it is even higher.
In return for that I get an NHS that is treated like a state religion and compared to other social healthcare system is utterly fucked (and not through a lack of funding - I worked in it for a good few years at a senior level and it is so neolithically incompetently run as to be an embarrassment), police that dont solve crimes, a prison system that is too small to incarcerate serious criminals for the duration of their woefully short sentences (life should mean life for those that kill and seriously harm, not 17 years of a 25 year sentence in most cases) and an armed for es that are too small to be truely effective. The first role of any government is to defend the borders and the integrity of the nation it governs and to ensure safety in the public space. Its not to be a nanny that is assumed to take responsibility for every aspect of citizens lives to the point we no longer have a societal concept of individual responsibility and accountability. To that end, the amount that was spunked on Covid and the printing of money to “ease” the spend burden (without any link to growth in GDP) is exactly why we have a cost of living crisis. That, and the crazy eco-loon chasing the Carbon Net Zero agenda that has halted an energy independence strategy pushing up your utility costs. Stop spunking money on unstable wind and start fracking and watch your energy bills fall by 1/3rd.
Top post. in not sure how much of this is down to socialism versus capitalism tho. I could probably argue more it's down to our electorial system. Are the Tories socialists now ?"They're trying to be - because they were forced into it by a pandemic and now a cost of living crisis. After all, if their first duty is the security of the people, then reducing the number of them who die, or fall into debt and poverty - through no fault of their own - would seem to require action by the state. You can call that socialism if you want. In any case, it's worth noting that the bulk of the UK's division, inequality and economic woes have occurred under Conservative government, in the pursuit of unregulated capitalism. Except when New Labour did absolutely fuck all to regulate the City, making the impact of the financial crash of 2008, even worse. That happened because they had become Tory-lite - which they absolutely have to, in order to win a UK GE. The future isn't looking good - mainly due to FPTP. It keeps people in power who should be nowhere fucking near it. It's a shame, for HMQ, that her 70th year on the throne; the PM is the worst one she's ever had to put up with. | |||
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" But hey… when its free who cares if you tie up endless GP appointments you dont need and dont always turn up to, you dont care about your streetscape because “its the council’s problem innit n dat” and your life is always someone else’s problem. " Unfortunately, this is one of the many main problems with socialism. At a micro level, I have been in three apartment buildings in my life where water bill was shared among everyone. All these buildings eventually fit water meters in each flat because the water expense before that was much higher for a building with that many people. And once people were made to pay for what they use, the total water consumption magically reduced. They started fixing their leaking pipes, used water judiciously etc. | |||
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"When 58p of every pound I earn is taken from me, who says I (or my parents) didn’t pay for any of what you describe? The only difference is the manner in which the money was taken. Frankly I would rather pay no NI and arrange for my own health insurance and have the freedom of choice over which provider based on a criteria that I feel better suits my needs rather than have the state take huge amounts off me and dictate to me what I can have. Equally, the council tax system ensures absolutely no consistency. There are basket case local authorities that could not run a piss up in a brewery, and ditto the scots and welsh nats who have both managed to cause chaos in the health a d education systems, not to mention their inabiliites in other spheres of local administration due to their functional incompetence (which by the way has nothing to do with policy positions and everything to do with the staggering lack of capability, an issue that can affect governments of any political persuation, but seems to be considerably more endemic in left leaning administrations - possibly because if they were any good in the real world they would be out thee making their lives and careers work instead of being the functionally unemployable Trade Union acolytes who stood for election having run nothing other than perhaps their own baths). We take tax and spend policies for granted on account of the fact that it is all hidden and taken at source. If you paid taxes like you do in most other countries - where you are presented with a bill rather than just looking at what you take home and shrugging your shoulders, or where it is added on at the till you would soon care, and I suspect care a great deal more than you do right now because you would “feel” what you are being taxed more acutely. I suspect then a lot more people would demand greater accountability for what is spent, would demand lower taxes and greater agency and would probably take a lot more responsibility for their lives as a result. But hey… when its free who cares if you tie up endless GP appointments you dont need and dont always turn up to, you dont care about your streetscape because “its the council’s problem innit n dat” and your life is always someone else’s problem. " There would need to be billions spent in investment by ""providers to have a ambulance within 10 minutes drive to every customer of that paticular provider, plus a tattoo across your forehead of you health provider contact details just incase you are unconscious, you would not want your pockets rifled through by a member of the public to get your pre-arranged health provider contact details. I will stick with the nhs.  | |||
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"When 58p of every pound I earn is taken from me, who says I (or my parents) didn’t pay for any of what you describe? The only difference is the manner in which the money was taken. Frankly I would rather pay no NI and arrange for my own health insurance and have the freedom of choice over which provider based on a criteria that I feel better suits my needs rather than have the state take huge amounts off me and dictate to me what I can have. Equally, the council tax system ensures absolutely no consistency. There are basket case local authorities that could not run a piss up in a brewery, and ditto the scots and welsh nats who have both managed to cause chaos in the health a d education systems, not to mention their inabiliites in other spheres of local administration due to their functional incompetence (which by the way has nothing to do with policy positions and everything to do with the staggering lack of capability, an issue that can affect governments of any political persuation, but seems to be considerably more endemic in left leaning administrations - possibly because if they were any good in the real world they would be out thee making their lives and careers work instead of being the functionally unemployable Trade Union acolytes who stood for election having run nothing other than perhaps their own baths). We take tax and spend policies for granted on account of the fact that it is all hidden and taken at source. If you paid taxes like you do in most other countries - where you are presented with a bill rather than just looking at what you take home and shrugging your shoulders, or where it is added on at the till you would soon care, and I suspect care a great deal more than you do right now because you would “feel” what you are being taxed more acutely. I suspect then a lot more people would demand greater accountability for what is spent, would demand lower taxes and greater agency and would probably take a lot more responsibility for their lives as a result. But hey… when its free who cares if you tie up endless GP appointments you dont need and dont always turn up to, you dont care about your streetscape because “its the council’s problem innit n dat” and your life is always someone else’s problem. There would need to be billions spent in investment by ""providers to have a ambulance within 10 minutes drive to every customer of that paticular provider, plus a tattoo across your forehead of you health provider contact details just incase you are unconscious, you would not want your pockets rifled through by a member of the public to get your pre-arranged health provider contact details. I will stick with the nhs. "No, you simply wouldn’t. I mentioned before I hae been a senior manager in the NHS - an ambulance trust to be exact. The issues faced by the ambulance service is no a lack of money, but in a lot of cases, competence. The trust i worked for had no idea how to price an operating model when it tendered for PTS services and lost £1.3m a year on it. One option was to rationalise the service, but it would have meant making 5 administrators in outlying offices redundant, and they wouldn't do that thanks to a weak HR Dir. The abuses that went on were staggering. But hey, its only taxpayer’s money. This is the self-perpetuating lie we tell ourselves to keep our blind faith in the NHS, nobody could do it better or cheaper. Well they can, and they do. We have far more ambulances per head of population than Spain, but their response times are better. Here, the number of serial abusers of the service are truely shocking. Every dispatcher will tell you about the repeat “customers” who will call an ambulance out 3 or 4 times a day and will know what to say to get a blue light special, but even though we would know the call was BS we couldn’t not send one because of the off chance the call might be real. Call an ambulance in Spain and you get one- quickly. Abuse the system and you get charged the full cost of the call out, you are prosecuted and the ambulance provider black lists you. The funny thing is, it doesnt get abused. Equally, your insurance premium is about €90 a year for a family for ambulance cover. How much of your taxes do you think goes towards the costs of a much abused system? A hell of a lot more than £85! | |||
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"When 58p of every pound I earn is taken from me, who says I (or my parents) didn’t pay for any of what you describe? The only difference is the manner in which the money was taken. Frankly I would rather pay no NI and arrange for my own health insurance and have the freedom of choice over which provider based on a criteria that I feel better suits my needs rather than have the state take huge amounts off me and dictate to me what I can have. Equally, the council tax system ensures absolutely no consistency. There are basket case local authorities that could not run a piss up in a brewery, and ditto the scots and welsh nats who have both managed to cause chaos in the health a d education systems, not to mention their inabiliites in other spheres of local administration due to their functional incompetence (which by the way has nothing to do with policy positions and everything to do with the staggering lack of capability, an issue that can affect governments of any political persuation, but seems to be considerably more endemic in left leaning administrations - possibly because if they were any good in the real world they would be out thee making their lives and careers work instead of being the functionally unemployable Trade Union acolytes who stood for election having run nothing other than perhaps their own baths). We take tax and spend policies for granted on account of the fact that it is all hidden and taken at source. If you paid taxes like you do in most other countries - where you are presented with a bill rather than just looking at what you take home and shrugging your shoulders, or where it is added on at the till you would soon care, and I suspect care a great deal more than you do right now because you would “feel” what you are being taxed more acutely. I suspect then a lot more people would demand greater accountability for what is spent, would demand lower taxes and greater agency and would probably take a lot more responsibility for their lives as a result. But hey… when its free who cares if you tie up endless GP appointments you dont need and dont always turn up to, you dont care about your streetscape because “its the council’s problem innit n dat” and your life is always someone else’s problem. There would need to be billions spent in investment by ""providers to have a ambulance within 10 minutes drive to every customer of that paticular provider, plus a tattoo across your forehead of you health provider contact details just incase you are unconscious, you would not want your pockets rifled through by a member of the public to get your pre-arranged health provider contact details. I will stick with the nhs.
No, you simply wouldn’t. I mentioned before I hae been a senior manager in the NHS - an ambulance trust to be exact. The issues faced by the ambulance service is no a lack of money, but in a lot of cases, competence. The trust i worked for had no idea how to price an operating model when it tendered for PTS services and lost £1.3m a year on it. One option was to rationalise the service, but it would have meant making 5 administrators in outlying offices redundant, and they wouldn't do that thanks to a weak HR Dir. The abuses that went on were staggering. But hey, its only taxpayer’s money.
This is the self-perpetuating lie we tell ourselves to keep our blind faith in the NHS, nobody could do it better or cheaper. Well they can, and they do.
We have far more ambulances per head of population than Spain, but their response times are better. Here, the number of serial abusers of the service are truely shocking. Every dispatcher will tell you about the repeat “customers” who will call an ambulance out 3 or 4 times a day and will know what to say to get a blue light special, but even though we would know the call was BS we couldn’t not send one because of the off chance the call might be real. Call an ambulance in Spain and you get one- quickly. Abuse the system and you get charged the full cost of the call out, you are prosecuted and the ambulance provider black lists you. The funny thing is, it doesnt get abused. Equally, your insurance premium is about €90 a year for a family for ambulance cover. How much of your taxes do you think goes towards the costs of a much abused system? A hell of a lot more than £85!
"Hey if you’re so clever why don’t you stand for parliament and see how the general public respond to your point of view? Everyone who uses the NHS knows that it’s often less than perfect and occasionally absolutely brilliant but that’s like all large corporations isn’t it? FYI - one of my daughters had to have a spinal fusion which the NHS did a brilliant job of and I know that if I had been in the USA I would have been lucky to have that cost covered by health insurance and I certainly could not have paid it otherwise without taking on an enormous amount of debt not to mention that she would have had to pay more for her health cover in the future. I get that there are wasters and time servers in all aspects of working life but that’s just humanity for you. Oh and if you are earning enough to be taxed 58p in the pound then quite frankly if you don’t like it you could always take yourself off to somewhere else that might appreciate your abilities rather more as we are not all as entitled or as able as you appear to think you are  | |||
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"The problem with socialism, as a former PM pointed out, is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money. " which proved that said PM had zero understanding of how government finances work. Governments spend their own money - not other people's | |||
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"The problem with socialism, as a former PM pointed out, is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money. which proved that said PM had zero understanding of how government finances work. Governments spend their own money - not other people's" You mean, like taxes? Or the bonds they sell for which interests are paid through.... taxes? | |||
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"The problem with socialism, as a former PM pointed out, is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money. which proved that said PM had zero understanding of how government finances work. Governments spend their own money - not other people's You mean, like taxes? Or the bonds they sell for which interests are paid through.... taxes?" Political parties do use socialism and socialist learnings, to raid and steal from the public purse for their own benefit and the benefit of their associates. | |||
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"The problem with socialism, as a former PM pointed out, is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money. which proved that said PM had zero understanding of how government finances work. Governments spend their own money - not other people's You mean, like taxes? Or the bonds they sell for which interests are paid through.... taxes?" Exactly! The PM in question didn't know that government spending isn't funded by taxes. As we all know government spending is funded by the government by the government instructing the central bank to issue to funds. The proportion of that money which isn't cancelled out by taxing it back is then sold as bonds (we call this government "debt") - the interest to which is paid for by..... instructing the central bank to issue the funds (not taxes) So (of course as we all know) the government can never run out of currency because it is the sole issuer of the currency - it isn't anyone else's money - unlike that PM's ludicrously ill informed opinion. It's a shame that PM was so economically illiterate - maybe if we hadn't kept on following their half-baked ideas for the last half century this country wouldn't be in such a state. | |||
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"The problem with socialism, as a former PM pointed out, is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money. which proved that said PM had zero understanding of how government finances work. Governments spend their own money - not other people's You mean, like taxes? Or the bonds they sell for which interests are paid through.... taxes? Exactly! The PM in question didn't know that government spending isn't funded by taxes. As we all know government spending is funded by the government by the government instructing the central bank to issue to funds. The proportion of that money which isn't cancelled out by taxing it back is then sold as bonds (we call this government "debt") - the interest to which is paid for by..... instructing the central bank to issue the funds (not taxes) So (of course as we all know) the government can never run out of currency because it is the sole issuer of the currency - it isn't anyone else's money - unlike that PM's ludicrously ill informed opinion. It's a shame that PM was so economically illiterate - maybe if we hadn't kept on following their half-baked ideas for the last half century this country wouldn't be in such a state." So when we run out of money, print more money is your solution?
Please read about Zimbabwe and more recently Sri Lanka to see what happens when you do that. | |||
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" So when we run out of money, print more money is your solution?
Please read about Zimbabwe and more recently Sri Lanka to see what happens when you do that. "look up "strawman argument" | |||
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" So when we run out of money, print more money is your solution?
Please read about Zimbabwe and more recently Sri Lanka to see what happens when you do that. "Or better still look up Denmark, Norway, and Sweden to understand how modern social Democratic countries operate effectively. Socialism works because it operates as a collective. Quick - don’t mention pre- and post-natal care, don’t mention schools, don’t mention local council services et etc etc You don’t have to apply socialist policies in an extreme way, in the same way that you don’t have to apply capitalist policies in an extreme way. Middle of the road with the best of both worlds works very well indeed. | |||
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" So when we run out of money, print more money is your solution?
Please read about Zimbabwe and more recently Sri Lanka to see what happens when you do that.
Or better still look up Denmark, Norway, and Sweden to understand how modern social Democratic countries operate effectively.
Socialism works because it operates as a collective. Quick - don’t mention pre- and post-natal care, don’t mention schools, don’t mention local council services et etc etc
You don’t have to apply socialist policies in an extreme way, in the same way that you don’t have to apply capitalist policies in an extreme way.
Middle of the road with the best of both worlds works very well indeed."The above comment was about printing money. Denmark and Sweden collect lot more taxes. Even the lower tax slab is close to 30% and the higher tax slab is over 50% Are you happy to pay that much tax? Are you ok if we remove the concept of personal allowance and tax the low income earners too at close to 30%? | |||
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" So when we run out of money, print more money is your solution?
Please read about Zimbabwe and more recently Sri Lanka to see what happens when you do that.
Or better still look up Denmark, Norway, and Sweden to understand how modern social Democratic countries operate effectively.
Socialism works because it operates as a collective. Quick - don’t mention pre- and post-natal care, don’t mention schools, don’t mention local council services et etc etc
You don’t have to apply socialist policies in an extreme way, in the same way that you don’t have to apply capitalist policies in an extreme way.
Middle of the road with the best of both worlds works very well indeed.
The above comment was about printing money. Denmark and Sweden collect lot more taxes. Even the lower tax slab is close to 30% and the higher tax slab is over 50%
Are you happy to pay that much tax? Are you ok if we remove the concept of personal allowance and tax the low income earners too at close to 30%? "Taxes have to rise and they have to rise progressively - yes. Who said that the concept of personal allowances would have to be lost? Tax codes in the U.K. are a sham and the entire code needs reforming and re-writing so that the people benefit and not the politicians. The wealth gap in a civilised country should not be getting larger and larger with every passing year - that alone tells you that something is fundamentally wrong. | |||
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" Hey if you’re so clever why don’t you stand for parliament and see how the general public respond to your point of view? Everyone who uses the NHS knows that it’s often less than perfect and occasionally absolutely brilliant but that’s like all large corporations isn’t it? FYI - one of my daughters had to have a spinal fusion which the NHS did a brilliant job of and I know that if I had been in the USA I would have been lucky to have that cost covered by health insurance and I certainly could not have paid it otherwise without taking on an enormous amount of debt not to mention that she would have had to pay more for her health cover in the future. I get that there are wasters and time servers in all aspects of working life but that’s just humanity for you. Oh and if you are earning enough to be taxed 58p in the pound then quite frankly if you don’t like it you could always take yourself off to somewhere else that might appreciate your abilities rather more as we are not all as entitled or as able as you appear to think you are "I’ll take a couple of your points out of sequence. I am a higher rate tax payer. I earn well enough to be financially stable (mortgage on the house but no other significant debts and a small amount of savings) but i am by no means “rich” and dont have anything like the level of capital or liquid assets to be able to afford to offshore them let alone benefit from doing so. The 58p in every pound is calculated by adding income tax, NI, council tax, car tax, and the VAT i pay on what i buy out of what little disposable income i have left each month after living costs. If you earn enough to be in the higher rate -currently £50k (so not a fortune by any stretch), you will be paying about 58p in every pound you earn back to the state too. I do believe i explained that earlier, but hey ho. As for your daughter’s situation, i am genuinely sorry to hear that. I am also glad you managed to find decent treatment. Perhaps there was an element of a “postocode lottery” in the extent of her care. Thats a scenario you dont get in other healthcare systems. Perhaps she would have been treated sooner and with a better outcome, something a great many other healthcare systems across Europe and the wider world (say Canada or Australia that have demonstrably better patient outcomes than the NHS) demonstrably offer. All of them by the way have different funding models, are not the “US system” and are better than the NHS while demanding considerably less national resource than our new national religion of the NHS. Also, the US system has its faults, but it is not the binary “you pay a fortune or you get nothing” that its made out. There is a state run system (Medicaid) as well as a huge NFP sector that is funded jointly at State and Federal level. Not surprisingly, the level of treatment is better than the NHS. Its also a total straw man argument to state that the choice is binary - a totally state funded NHS or a horrid, evil, US system (and its neither horrid, nor evil, and depending on your view may or may not work, thats where debate comes in) and nothing in between. We could opt for the mostly European model of state subsidised private healthcare through a mix of direct service payment (€90 a year in Spain for full ambulance cover, €10 for a GP visit and €80 if you fail to turn up to the appointment without good reason) with “social” insurance model where you have regular check ups and if you have a lifestyle rosk factor like smoking or obesity you have to make strides to address them or your premiums go up, but not if you have an illness through no fault of your own. Which leads me to why dont i stand for election? Simply because I am not required to in order to validate my opinion when it differs from yours. Equally, the only hope you have of reform is to change the mindset of the people who have been brainwashed into believing that they owe their very existence (and therfore their worship through the sacrament of taxation) to the NHS. We were implored not to get ill during covid in order to save the NHS - as if it were some sort of deity we had to sacrifice ourselves for. And we have sacrificed ourselves, just watch as the undiagnosed cancers and other illnesses start to take peolle’s lives, but hey, the NHS was saved from itself so that must be an eternal good? | |||
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"The right wing pish on this thread makes me work even harder for the destruction of the UK. My nation, Scotland, is not like England, in case you aint noticed. We want to be a high tax, high service nation, same as the small Scandi nations. England is a political sewer. " be a great place to be. Is there a view why this hasn't started ... Income tax is, what, 1pc higher in general? Looks a bit tokenism from the outside (and I have no agenda here. Curious. ) | |||
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"people in the uk quite simply don't pay enough tax .... however the burden of tax that is paid, falls on the those with the least ability to pay while the sectors that generate masses of money are left to remove enormous profits off-shore where it is of no benefit to the nation. it's system that is in the wrong and dooms the country to perpetual failure. "I might be wrong here, but doesn’t the top 10% of earners pay more tax than the other 90%? I might be off there, but I think I’ve heard that before. Considering the average wage in the uk is 30k. That means they’re only paying 20% tax on 18.5k of that (if my numbers are right). Big earners pay 40% on anything over 50k and I think there’s an even high band? I dunno if it’s as simple as you make it sound, but then again, I am an idiot in this stuff. Trying to learn more from reading the thread | |||
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" I might be wrong here, but doesn’t the top 10% of earners pay more tax than the other 90%? I might be off there, but I think I’ve heard that before. Considering the average wage in the uk is 30k. That means they’re only paying 20% tax on 18.5k of that (if my numbers are right). Big earners pay 40% on anything over 50k and I think there’s an even high band? I dunno if it’s as simple as you make it sound, but then again, I am an idiot in this stuff. Trying to learn more from reading the thread " these figures are banded about but are wholly misleading and quite wrong. for instance the majority use a ltd company loophole to pay corporation tax on personal earnings as a freelancer, which is half the upper tax rate. masquerading as a business rather than a human being caught out millions during lockdown and is why so many were moaning about not getting benefits payments from the treasuryat that time. | |||
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" I might be wrong here, but doesn’t the top 10% of earners pay more tax than the other 90%? I might be off there, but I think I’ve heard that before. Considering the average wage in the uk is 30k. That means they’re only paying 20% tax on 18.5k of that (if my numbers are right). Big earners pay 40% on anything over 50k and I think there’s an even high band? I dunno if it’s as simple as you make it sound, but then again, I am an idiot in this stuff. Trying to learn more from reading the thread these figures are banded about but are wholly misleading and quite wrong. for instance the majority use a ltd company loophole to pay corporation tax on personal earnings as a freelancer, which is half the upper tax rate. masquerading as a business rather than a human being caught out millions during lockdown and is why so many were moaning about not getting benefits payments from the treasuryat that time." No, you can't and in fact never could. IR35 is the tax rule you are looking for. It means that unless you can prove you are acting in a truely consultative manner (i.e. you own IT platform, plan of deliverables, ability to substitute labour to deliver the task, not under insytruction from the client and not managing client staff or resources) then you have to be engaged by an umbrella company. When this happens the employer's NI and apprentice levy charge (another tax) are taken at source and then from what is left the contractor pays the income tax, NI, and umbrella company service fees along with both employer and employee pension contributions. Oh, and when you work this way you don't get the sickness or leave benefits of an employee and non of the employment protection as you are usually on 1 day - 1 week's notice. The reason that a lot of contractors missed out is that they didn't have a contract of employment. For those that run their own business as a Ltd Company (in order to protect their assets like the family home should their business go under) have the option of taking payment by dividend on which they pay small business corporation tax rather than employer's NI but you pay tax and NI on that in the same way, the big difference being, say you are a roofing contractor (as opposed to those horrible finance, law, IT consultants/interims who obviously have no right to earn a living according to some) this method of paying tax allows you to claim justifiable expenses from the business before payment is taken by the director(s) for things like your van and equipment in a way working inside IR35 doesn't allow. These guys got really stung because they not only didn't have contracts of employment, but as they paid themselves according to how much income they traded (difficult to pay a yearly fixed salary - which BTW is how inside IR35 works when you have variable income from gtradiong) couldn't claim. But yeah, why let the facts get in the way of a good bit of left wing "they are all rich bastards hiding their money" blind ideology. Most "contractors" earn less than their FTE counterparts, but they often turn to contracting as a way of doing other things or because they have part retired and it suits their lifestyle. but again, why let that fact get in the way of blind ideology. Oh, and see the Institute for Fiscal Studies on how the top 10% of earners pay 90% of INCOME tax. That is separate from CORPORATION TAX, and yes, we can have a debate on that. Again, see the IFS reports on how over-taxation actually reduces tax receipts, but again, ideology and all that. | |||
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"people in the uk quite simply don't pay enough tax .... however the burden of tax that is paid, falls on the those with the least ability to pay while the sectors that generate masses of money are left to remove enormous profits off-shore where it is of no benefit to the nation. it's system that is in the wrong and dooms the country to perpetual failure.
I might be wrong here, but doesn’t the top 10% of earners pay more tax than the other 90%?
I might be off there, but I think I’ve heard that before. Considering the average wage in the uk is 30k. That means they’re only paying 20% tax on 18.5k of that (if my numbers are right). Big earners pay 40% on anything over 50k and I think there’s an even high band?
I dunno if it’s as simple as you make it sound, but then again, I am an idiot in this stuff. Trying to learn more from reading the thread "Yes that is people on PAYE only. The really big players are all seen up with offshore trusts, non-dom agreements and other devious methods of hiding their cash. | |||
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" I might be wrong here, but doesn’t the top 10% of earners pay more tax than the other 90%? I might be off there, but I think I’ve heard that before. Considering the average wage in the uk is 30k. That means they’re only paying 20% tax on 18.5k of that (if my numbers are right). Big earners pay 40% on anything over 50k and I think there’s an even high band? I dunno if it’s as simple as you make it sound, but then again, I am an idiot in this stuff. Trying to learn more from reading the thread these figures are banded about but are wholly misleading and quite wrong. for instance the majority use a ltd company loophole to pay corporation tax on personal earnings as a freelancer, which is half the upper tax rate. masquerading as a business rather than a human being caught out millions during lockdown and is why so many were moaning about not getting benefits payments from the treasuryat that time. No, you can't and in fact never could. IR35 is the tax rule you are looking for. It means that unless you can prove you are acting in a truely consultative manner (i.e. you own IT platform, plan of deliverables, ability to substitute labour to deliver the task, not under insytruction from the client and not managing client staff or resources) then you have to be engaged by an umbrella company. When this happens the employer's NI and apprentice levy charge (another tax) are taken at source and then from what is left the contractor pays the income tax, NI, and umbrella company service fees along with both employer and employee pension contributions. Oh, and when you work this way you don't get the sickness or leave benefits of an employee and non of the employment protection as you are usually on 1 day - 1 week's notice. The reason that a lot of contractors missed out is that they didn't have a contract of employment. For those that run their own business as a Ltd Company (in order to protect their assets like the family home should their business go under) have the option of taking payment by dividend on which they pay small business corporation tax rather than employer's NI but you pay tax and NI on that in the same way, the big difference being, say you are a roofing contractor (as opposed to those horrible finance, law, IT consultants/interims who obviously have no right to earn a living according to some) this method of paying tax allows you to claim justifiable expenses from the business before payment is taken by the director(s) for things like your van and equipment in a way working inside IR35 doesn't allow. These guys got really stung because they not only didn't have contracts of employment, but as they paid themselves according to how much income they traded (difficult to pay a yearly fixed salary - which BTW is how inside IR35 works when you have variable income from gtradiong) couldn't claim. But yeah, why let the facts get in the way of a good bit of left wing "they are all rich bastards hiding their money" blind ideology. Most "contractors" earn less than their FTE counterparts, but they often turn to contracting as a way of doing other things or because they have part retired and it suits their lifestyle. but again, why let that fact get in the way of blind ideology. Oh, and see the Institute for Fiscal Studies on how the top 10% of earners pay 90% of INCOME tax. That is separate from CORPORATION TAX, and yes, we can have a debate on that. Again, see the IFS reports on how over-taxation actually reduces tax receipts, but again, ideology and all that. " or just work for more than one company in any tax year ...simple as that | |||
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" So when we run out of money, print more money is your solution?
Please read about Zimbabwe and more recently Sri Lanka to see what happens when you do that.
Or better still look up Denmark, Norway, and Sweden to understand how modern social Democratic countries operate effectively.
Socialism works because it operates as a collective. Quick - don’t mention pre- and post-natal care, don’t mention schools, don’t mention local council services et etc etc
You don’t have to apply socialist policies in an extreme way, in the same way that you don’t have to apply capitalist policies in an extreme way.
Middle of the road with the best of both worlds works very well indeed.
The above comment was about printing money. Denmark and Sweden collect lot more taxes. Even the lower tax slab is close to 30% and the higher tax slab is over 50%
Are you happy to pay that much tax? Are you ok if we remove the concept of personal allowance and tax the low income earners too at close to 30%?
Taxes have to rise and they have to rise progressively - yes. Who said that the concept of personal allowances would have to be lost?
Tax codes in the U.K. are a sham and the entire code needs reforming and re-writing so that the people benefit and not the politicians.
The wealth gap in a civilised country should not be getting larger and larger with every passing year - that alone tells you that something is fundamentally wrong.
"You wanted Sweden/Denmark style social welfare. Sweden has a municipal tax that applies for everyone and a state tax that is progressive. Put them together and you have everyone paying some form of tax. There is no tax free allowance. You can't attain their level of social welfare by only taxing them rich people. They get tax from everyone and give it back to everyone. | |||
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" So when we run out of money, print more money is your solution?
Please read about Zimbabwe and more recently Sri Lanka to see what happens when you do that.
Or better still look up Denmark, Norway, and Sweden to understand how modern social Democratic countries operate effectively.
Socialism works because it operates as a collective. Quick - don’t mention pre- and post-natal care, don’t mention schools, don’t mention local council services et etc etc
You don’t have to apply socialist policies in an extreme way, in the same way that you don’t have to apply capitalist policies in an extreme way.
Middle of the road with the best of both worlds works very well indeed.
The above comment was about printing money. Denmark and Sweden collect lot more taxes. Even the lower tax slab is close to 30% and the higher tax slab is over 50%
Are you happy to pay that much tax? Are you ok if we remove the concept of personal allowance and tax the low income earners too at close to 30%?
Taxes have to rise and they have to rise progressively - yes. Who said that the concept of personal allowances would have to be lost?
Tax codes in the U.K. are a sham and the entire code needs reforming and re-writing so that the people benefit and not the politicians.
The wealth gap in a civilised country should not be getting larger and larger with every passing year - that alone tells you that something is fundamentally wrong.
You wanted Sweden/Denmark style social welfare. Sweden has a municipal tax that applies for everyone and a state tax that is progressive. Put them together and you have everyone paying some form of tax. There is no tax free allowance. You can't attain their level of social welfare by only taxing them rich people. They get tax from everyone and give it back to everyone. "Just a bit different here then | |||
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"Its the plaintiff cry of socialists when confronted with the failures of socialism: it only failed because the socialist experiment wasn’t socialist enough. How many people have died because of the experiments and pogroms of socialism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and the former Soviet states? Socialism works very, very well in most countries and we simply take for granted its benefits. Your parents didn’t have to pay for pre-natal and post-natal care when you were born. They also didn’t have to pay for the hospital room where you were were born or for the midwife who went to their home if you were born at home. From 5 years old you were able to have an education that took you up to 18/19 years old if you wanted. Thanks to a socialist council tax system you are on equal footing with everyone else in your town in that your bins get collected and your refuse dealt with. You don’t have to pay for private security to watch over your house in case of crime or fire because there are Police and Fire Brigades paid for out of a social fund. It’s odd that socialism is often so good that we just take it for granted. Now if only we could get public transport and energy supply in public ownership as well!!! " Can we stop this level of intellectual babkruptcy? The reason our mixed market used to work was the capitalistic venture of government but that fell by the wayside under the centre left government of Tony Blair. The NHS is not remotely free we are one of the heavily taxed cpuntries to pay for a monolith that is failing itself and the people (despite the clear anecdotal evidence that people love to provide to defend their chosen new God). The education system in the UK never recovered from Blair's mismanagement either and they won't from this current government either who are the same as New Labour in their centre-left standing. As for energy companies going public... Pick up a history book right after you try an economics course. Socialism and Communism have the highest death count in the world. C | |||
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"Its the plaintiff cry of socialists when confronted with the failures of socialism: it only failed because the socialist experiment wasn’t socialist enough. How many people have died because of the experiments and pogroms of socialism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and the former Soviet states? Socialism works very, very well in most countries and we simply take for granted its benefits. Your parents didn’t have to pay for pre-natal and post-natal care when you were born. They also didn’t have to pay for the hospital room where you were were born or for the midwife who went to their home if you were born at home. From 5 years old you were able to have an education that took you up to 18/19 years old if you wanted. Thanks to a socialist council tax system you are on equal footing with everyone else in your town in that your bins get collected and your refuse dealt with. You don’t have to pay for private security to watch over your house in case of crime or fire because there are Police and Fire Brigades paid for out of a social fund. It’s odd that socialism is often so good that we just take it for granted. Now if only we could get public transport and energy supply in public ownership as well!!! Can we stop this level of intellectual babkruptcy? The reason our mixed market used to work was the capitalistic venture of government but that fell by the wayside under the centre left government of Tony Blair. The NHS is not remotely free we are one of the heavily taxed cpuntries to pay for a monolith that is failing itself and the people (despite the clear anecdotal evidence that people love to provide to defend their chosen new God). The education system in the UK never recovered from Blair's mismanagement either and they won't from this current government either who are the same as New Labour in their centre-left standing. As for energy companies going public... Pick up a history book right after you try an economics course. Socialism and Communism have the highest death count in the world. C" If we had free market capitalism, the banks should of gone bankrupt for their greed and rehypothecation.? but under alistar darling mp a socialist bailout of the banks was constructed which implemented years of quantitative easing for the banks and austerity for the masses. One is giveth to the wealthy the other is taketh from the poor. | |||
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"Its the plaintiff cry of socialists when confronted with the failures of socialism: it only failed because the socialist experiment wasn’t socialist enough. How many people have died because of the experiments and pogroms of socialism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and the former Soviet states? Socialism works very, very well in most countries and we simply take for granted its benefits. Your parents didn’t have to pay for pre-natal and post-natal care when you were born. They also didn’t have to pay for the hospital room where you were were born or for the midwife who went to their home if you were born at home. From 5 years old you were able to have an education that took you up to 18/19 years old if you wanted. Thanks to a socialist council tax system you are on equal footing with everyone else in your town in that your bins get collected and your refuse dealt with. You don’t have to pay for private security to watch over your house in case of crime or fire because there are Police and Fire Brigades paid for out of a social fund. It’s odd that socialism is often so good that we just take it for granted. Now if only we could get public transport and energy supply in public ownership as well!!! Can we stop this level of intellectual babkruptcy? The reason our mixed market used to work was the capitalistic venture of government but that fell by the wayside under the centre left government of Tony Blair. The NHS is not remotely free we are one of the heavily taxed cpuntries to pay for a monolith that is failing itself and the people (despite the clear anecdotal evidence that people love to provide to defend their chosen new God). The education system in the UK never recovered from Blair's mismanagement either and they won't from this current government either who are the same as New Labour in their centre-left standing. As for energy companies going public... Pick up a history book right after you try an economics course. Socialism and Communism have the highest death count in the world. C If we had free market capitalism, the banks should of gone bankrupt for their greed and rehypothecation.? but under alistar darling mp a socialist bailout of the banks was constructed which implemented years of quantitative easing for the banks and austerity for the masses. One is giveth to the wealthy the other is taketh from the poor." And most people came out of it better off until COVID | |||
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"Its the plaintiff cry of socialists when confronted with the failures of socialism: it only failed because the socialist experiment wasn’t socialist enough. How many people have died because of the experiments and pogroms of socialism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and the former Soviet states? Socialism works very, very well in most countries and we simply take for granted its benefits. Your parents didn’t have to pay for pre-natal and post-natal care when you were born. They also didn’t have to pay for the hospital room where you were were born or for the midwife who went to their home if you were born at home. From 5 years old you were able to have an education that took you up to 18/19 years old if you wanted. Thanks to a socialist council tax system you are on equal footing with everyone else in your town in that your bins get collected and your refuse dealt with. You don’t have to pay for private security to watch over your house in case of crime or fire because there are Police and Fire Brigades paid for out of a social fund. It’s odd that socialism is often so good that we just take it for granted. Now if only we could get public transport and energy supply in public ownership as well!!! Can we stop this level of intellectual babkruptcy? The reason our mixed market used to work was the capitalistic venture of government but that fell by the wayside under the centre left government of Tony Blair. The NHS is not remotely free we are one of the heavily taxed cpuntries to pay for a monolith that is failing itself and the people (despite the clear anecdotal evidence that people love to provide to defend their chosen new God). The education system in the UK never recovered from Blair's mismanagement either and they won't from this current government either who are the same as New Labour in their centre-left standing. As for energy companies going public... Pick up a history book right after you try an economics course. Socialism and Communism have the highest death count in the world. C If we had free market capitalism, the banks should of gone bankrupt for their greed and rehypothecation.? but under alistar darling mp a socialist bailout of the banks was constructed which implemented years of quantitative easing for the banks and austerity for the masses. One is giveth to the wealthy the other is taketh from the poor. And most people came out of it better off until COVID " Children did not come out of it better off, read the Un report on UK child poverty which has increased since 2008. | |||
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"Its the plaintiff cry of socialists when confronted with the failures of socialism: it only failed because the socialist experiment wasn’t socialist enough. How many people have died because of the experiments and pogroms of socialism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and the former Soviet states? Socialism works very, very well in most countries and we simply take for granted its benefits. Your parents didn’t have to pay for pre-natal and post-natal care when you were born. They also didn’t have to pay for the hospital room where you were were born or for the midwife who went to their home if you were born at home. From 5 years old you were able to have an education that took you up to 18/19 years old if you wanted. Thanks to a socialist council tax system you are on equal footing with everyone else in your town in that your bins get collected and your refuse dealt with. You don’t have to pay for private security to watch over your house in case of crime or fire because there are Police and Fire Brigades paid for out of a social fund. It’s odd that socialism is often so good that we just take it for granted. Now if only we could get public transport and energy supply in public ownership as well!!! Can we stop this level of intellectual babkruptcy? The reason our mixed market used to work was the capitalistic venture of government but that fell by the wayside under the centre left government of Tony Blair. The NHS is not remotely free we are one of the heavily taxed cpuntries to pay for a monolith that is failing itself and the people (despite the clear anecdotal evidence that people love to provide to defend their chosen new God). The education system in the UK never recovered from Blair's mismanagement either and they won't from this current government either who are the same as New Labour in their centre-left standing. As for energy companies going public... Pick up a history book right after you try an economics course. Socialism and Communism have the highest death count in the world. C" If we only did irony awards lol | |||
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"Its the plaintiff cry of socialists when confronted with the failures of socialism: it only failed because the socialist experiment wasn’t socialist enough. How many people have died because of the experiments and pogroms of socialism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and the former Soviet states? Socialism works very, very well in most countries and we simply take for granted its benefits. Your parents didn’t have to pay for pre-natal and post-natal care when you were born. They also didn’t have to pay for the hospital room where you were were born or for the midwife who went to their home if you were born at home. From 5 years old you were able to have an education that took you up to 18/19 years old if you wanted. Thanks to a socialist council tax system you are on equal footing with everyone else in your town in that your bins get collected and your refuse dealt with. You don’t have to pay for private security to watch over your house in case of crime or fire because there are Police and Fire Brigades paid for out of a social fund. It’s odd that socialism is often so good that we just take it for granted. Now if only we could get public transport and energy supply in public ownership as well!!! Can we stop this level of intellectual babkruptcy? The reason our mixed market used to work was the capitalistic venture of government but that fell by the wayside under the centre left government of Tony Blair. The NHS is not remotely free we are one of the heavily taxed cpuntries to pay for a monolith that is failing itself and the people (despite the clear anecdotal evidence that people love to provide to defend their chosen new God). The education system in the UK never recovered from Blair's mismanagement either and they won't from this current government either who are the same as New Labour in their centre-left standing. As for energy companies going public... Pick up a history book right after you try an economics course. Socialism and Communism have the highest death count in the world. C If we had free market capitalism, the banks should of gone bankrupt for their greed and rehypothecation.? but under alistar darling mp a socialist bailout of the banks was constructed which implemented years of quantitative easing for the banks and austerity for the masses. One is giveth to the wealthy the other is taketh from the poor." I agree. That is not capitalism but rather a distorted version thereof. I'm a Voluntaryist btw C | |||
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