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"I certainly won't be riding one without my hands being 6 inches from the wheel at all times. https://news.sky.com/story/uks-first-self-driving-bus-takes-to-the-road-for-tests-in-scotland-12598505" Until they get as sophisticated as KITT. In other news you'll now be able watch TV while "driving" the self driving cars. | |||
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"I certainly won't be riding one without my hands being 6 inches from the wheel at all times. https://news.sky.com/story/uks-first-self-driving-bus-takes-to-the-road-for-tests-in-scotland-12598505 Until they get as sophisticated as KITT. In other news you'll now be able watch TV while "driving" the self driving cars. " See, I get to thinking of Smart Motorways . . . Then when I add self-driving anything, it just gets even more nightmarish. Technical marvels are marvellous indeed, and I drive a car that is gadget mad in terms or driver assistance and the ability for it to take serious control in the event of a near collision / pedestrian jumping out / rear collision overtaking / undertaking (list goes on) But I'm still at the wheel. | |||
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"I certainly won't be riding one without my hands being 6 inches from the wheel at all times. https://news.sky.com/story/uks-first-self-driving-bus-takes-to-the-road-for-tests-in-scotland-12598505 Until they get as sophisticated as KITT. In other news you'll now be able watch TV while "driving" the self driving cars. See, I get to thinking of Smart Motorways . . . Then when I add self-driving anything, it just gets even more nightmarish. Technical marvels are marvellous indeed, and I drive a car that is gadget mad in terms or driver assistance and the ability for it to take serious control in the event of a near collision / pedestrian jumping out / rear collision overtaking / undertaking (list goes on) But I'm still at the wheel. " You have made an assumption that the self driving car will have a steering wheel 
Self driving of tomorrow is way beyond the autonomous aids that are in cars today. They can also be configured completely different to how we see cars today. No need for dashboards, steering wheels and all the other bits that a human needs to control a car. | |||
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"I certainly won't be riding one without my hands being 6 inches from the wheel at all times. https://news.sky.com/story/uks-first-self-driving-bus-takes-to-the-road-for-tests-in-scotland-12598505 Until they get as sophisticated as KITT. In other news you'll now be able watch TV while "driving" the self driving cars. See, I get to thinking of Smart Motorways . . . Then when I add self-driving anything, it just gets even more nightmarish. Technical marvels are marvellous indeed, and I drive a car that is gadget mad in terms or driver assistance and the ability for it to take serious control in the event of a near collision / pedestrian jumping out / rear collision overtaking / undertaking (list goes on) But I'm still at the wheel. You have made an assumption that the self driving car will have a steering wheel
Self driving of tomorrow is way beyond the autonomous aids that are in cars today. They can also be configured completely different to how we see cars today. No need for dashboards, steering wheels and all the other bits that a human needs to control a car. "Or have you made an assumption that they won't have a steering wheel? But I'm not talking about tomorrow, I'm talking about today. (My link was about a bus going on the road this week after all). If you want to do that then that is a whole other debate of course.  | |||
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"I certainly won't be riding one without my hands being 6 inches from the wheel at all times. https://news.sky.com/story/uks-first-self-driving-bus-takes-to-the-road-for-tests-in-scotland-12598505 Until they get as sophisticated as KITT. In other news you'll now be able watch TV while "driving" the self driving cars. See, I get to thinking of Smart Motorways . . . Then when I add self-driving anything, it just gets even more nightmarish. Technical marvels are marvellous indeed, and I drive a car that is gadget mad in terms or driver assistance and the ability for it to take serious control in the event of a near collision / pedestrian jumping out / rear collision overtaking / undertaking (list goes on) But I'm still at the wheel. You have made an assumption that the self driving car will have a steering wheel
Self driving of tomorrow is way beyond the autonomous aids that are in cars today. They can also be configured completely different to how we see cars today. No need for dashboards, steering wheels and all the other bits that a human needs to control a car.
Or have you made an assumption that they won't have a steering wheel?
But I'm not talking about tomorrow, I'm talking about today. (My link was about a bus going on the road this week after all).
If you want to do that then that is a whole other debate of course. "Maybe not as far away as tomorrow, don't want to derail but I think this is so informative on the development of driverless vehicles. As a side note, I have made an assumption they wont have steering wheels
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"I actually see a market for long distance overnight travel. Imagine you living in loved in Aberdeen and needed to be in London in the morning. A self driving car designed with a seat like those in first class in airplanes let’s you sleep. There is no need for these cars to go fast and drop you off in London at 4am. It makes more sense for them to go slowly so your journey/sleep lasts longer." Or just take a plane, or one of the few remaining overnight sleeper train services! One point about this self driving bus, is that the journey takes it over the Forth road bridge. Lets hope nothing catastrophic happens! | |||
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"I actually see a market for long distance overnight travel. Imagine you living in loved in Aberdeen and needed to be in London in the morning. A self driving car designed with a seat like those in first class in airplanes let’s you sleep. There is no need for these cars to go fast and drop you off in London at 4am. It makes more sense for them to go slowly so your journey/sleep lasts longer." I can see scenarios likes this becoming a reality too. I feel cars will not be owned by individuals in the future, when you need a vehicle you will simply summon one from your preferred supplier. Car parking will no longer be an issue, driveways will be long forgotten and road rage will be a history lesson learnt in schools | |||
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"I wonder what their plans are for coping with motorbikes, cyclists, and pedestrians?" Self-driving pedestrians lol. Imagine that? | |||
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"Self driving vehicles work just fine so long as all other vehicles are self driving. At that point, all nearby vehicles will be able to communicate and know what each other is doing and about to do. It's the sentient meat bags behind the wheel that causes the glitch. If you have ten cars in a row on a motorway and only one of them is human controlled then that car becomes the unpredictable hazard to the nine SDVs. For the most part, airliners are self driving vehicles. " We are not even remotely close to the ten cars in a row scenario. Of IRobot or Total Recall movies, for example. And Aeroplanes do not fly down the M6 so-called smart motorway. The closest thing to any individual aeroplane is a thousand feet, so that's not a very good analogy, really. My car got a large sycamore leaf stuck to the front radar panel and turned off the auto-cruise. On another occasion the two cameras in the windscreen got ice across them, so lane change warnings and distance to vehicle in front/pedestrian warning/braking turned itself off too. Luckily, I'm there at the wheel to maintain control at all times. | |||
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"Self driving vehicles work just fine so long as all other vehicles are self driving. At that point, all nearby vehicles will be able to communicate and know what each other is doing and about to do. It's the sentient meat bags behind the wheel that causes the glitch. If you have ten cars in a row on a motorway and only one of them is human controlled then that car becomes the unpredictable hazard to the nine SDVs. For the most part, airliners are self driving vehicles. We are not even remotely close to the ten cars in a row scenario. Of IRobot or Total Recall movies, for example. And Aeroplanes do not fly down the M6 so-called smart motorway. The closest thing to any individual aeroplane is a thousand feet, so that's not a very good analogy, really. My car got a large sycamore leaf stuck to the front radar panel and turned off the auto-cruise. On another occasion the two cameras in the windscreen got ice across them, so lane change warnings and distance to vehicle in front/pedestrian warning/braking turned itself off too. Luckily, I'm there at the wheel to maintain control at all times." did you take a look at the link I posted above? It shows how far we have come | |||
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"Self driving vehicles work just fine so long as all other vehicles are self driving. At that point, all nearby vehicles will be able to communicate and know what each other is doing and about to do. It's the sentient meat bags behind the wheel that causes the glitch. If you have ten cars in a row on a motorway and only one of them is human controlled then that car becomes the unpredictable hazard to the nine SDVs. For the most part, airliners are self driving vehicles. We are not even remotely close to the ten cars in a row scenario. Of IRobot or Total Recall movies, for example. And Aeroplanes do not fly down the M6 so-called smart motorway. The closest thing to any individual aeroplane is a thousand feet, so that's not a very good analogy, really. My car got a large sycamore leaf stuck to the front radar panel and turned off the auto-cruise. On another occasion the two cameras in the windscreen got ice across them, so lane change warnings and distance to vehicle in front/pedestrian warning/braking turned itself off too. Luckily, I'm there at the wheel to maintain control at all times. did you take a look at the link I posted above? It shows how far we have come "Yes. But did you also see the same vehicle going rogue (waymo) ? Failed to make a turn - The car starts again after the operator has cancelled the cars movements but the car starts again and makes the turn then blocks another junction - plus waymo are monitoring live all of their cars when they are on a route. They said a DRIVER would come out and DRIVE it lol. At that point it's blocking the highway at an odd angle. Then it starts reversing then blocks the whole lane - it just goes on and on an on lol !!!!! Plus all the waymo cars are monitored live anyways - so not very self driving. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKCQKBvH-A | |||
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"Self driving vehicles work just fine so long as all other vehicles are self driving. At that point, all nearby vehicles will be able to communicate and know what each other is doing and about to do. It's the sentient meat bags behind the wheel that causes the glitch. If you have ten cars in a row on a motorway and only one of them is human controlled then that car becomes the unpredictable hazard to the nine SDVs. For the most part, airliners are self driving vehicles. We are not even remotely close to the ten cars in a row scenario. Of IRobot or Total Recall movies, for example. And Aeroplanes do not fly down the M6 so-called smart motorway. The closest thing to any individual aeroplane is a thousand feet, so that's not a very good analogy, really. My car got a large sycamore leaf stuck to the front radar panel and turned off the auto-cruise. On another occasion the two cameras in the windscreen got ice across them, so lane change warnings and distance to vehicle in front/pedestrian warning/braking turned itself off too. Luckily, I'm there at the wheel to maintain control at all times. did you take a look at the link I posted above? It shows how far we have come
Yes. But did you also see the same vehicle going rogue (waymo) ? Failed to make a turn - The car starts again after the operator has cancelled the cars movements but the car starts again and makes the turn then blocks another junction - plus waymo are monitoring live all of their cars when they are on a route. They said a DRIVER would come out and DRIVE it lol. At that point it's blocking the highway at an odd angle. Then it starts reversing then blocks the whole lane - it just goes on and on an on lol !!!!!
Plus all the waymo cars are monitored live anyways - so not very self driving.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKCQKBvH-A"Its called teething problems, happens in every technology. Its still a long,long way away before it becomesthe norm here. The USA and Canada have more cities planned around the car, and will leadtheway. In Europe its going to take longer with older cities and infrastructure. A lot will be dependent on the new technology supporting the self drive cars and the infrastructure around it. What the costs will be and the funding for it. There will be cars going rogue obviously, but its happening constantly now with human drivers. People going through red lights, wrong way up one way streets, tail gating, speeding and road rage.At least self drive cars will hopefully get rid of self entitlement of some drivers. | |||
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" Its called teething problems, happens in every technology. Its still a long,long way away before it becomesthe norm here. " Which brings it right back to my original OP - it can teethe all it likes - but not without my hands at least 6 inches from the wheel. | |||
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"If I remember rightly, haven't self driving lorries been tested on the M6 in the past couple of years. " Yes, they have been testing them for ages on the M6. They are usually in a line of 4 to 6 of them. What is surprising is how close they follow each other. It makes it a nightmare if you need to get between them for any reason | |||
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"We’ve been on several self driven buses at airports. They were fine. Not sure the infrastructure is in place yet for the mass congestion on the roads. But I am looking forward to when it is. No more driving. Just tell the vehicle your destination and away you go "Could you still be done fore drink driving. | |||
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"We’ve been on several self driven buses at airports. They were fine. Not sure the infrastructure is in place yet for the mass congestion on the roads. But I am looking forward to when it is. No more driving. Just tell the vehicle your destination and away you go
Could you still be done fore drink driving. "Yes. | |||
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"We’ve been on several self driven buses at airports. They were fine. Not sure the infrastructure is in place yet for the mass congestion on the roads. But I am looking forward to when it is. No more driving. Just tell the vehicle your destination and away you go
Could you still be done fore drink driving.
Yes."How and why? Wouldn't it be liking getting in a taxi, or sitting on a train? | |||
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"Could you still be done fore drink driving." "Yes." "How and why? Wouldn't it be liking getting in a taxi, or sitting on a train? " If you're in a level 3 vehicle (one with a steering wheel), then you're supposed to be ready to take control if the automation fails. That means that you need to be sober and alert. If you're in a level 4 vehicle (fully automated), at present the law still says that you need to be sober, but I expect that would change when they start to become widely available. | |||
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"Could you still be done fore drink driving. Yes. How and why? Wouldn't it be liking getting in a taxi, or sitting on a train? If you're in a level 3 vehicle (one with a steering wheel), then you're supposed to be ready to take control if the automation fails. That means that you need to be sober and alert. If you're in a level 4 vehicle (fully automated), at present the law still says that you need to be sober, but I expect that would change when they start to become widely available." The level would be a totally self driving car, no input from a human required. | |||
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"Could you still be done fore drink driving. Yes. How and why? Wouldn't it be liking getting in a taxi, or sitting on a train? If you're in a level 3 vehicle (one with a steering wheel), then you're supposed to be ready to take control if the automation fails. That means that you need to be sober and alert. If you're in a level 4 vehicle (fully automated), at present the law still says that you need to be sober, but I expect that would change when they start to become widely available. The level would be a totally self driving car, no input from a human required. " Will kill the taxi trade. | |||
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"Could you still be done fore drink driving. Yes. How and why? Wouldn't it be liking getting in a taxi, or sitting on a train? If you're in a level 3 vehicle (one with a steering wheel), then you're supposed to be ready to take control if the automation fails. That means that you need to be sober and alert. If you're in a level 4 vehicle (fully automated), at present the law still says that you need to be sober, but I expect that would change when they start to become widely available. The level would be a totally self driving car, no input from a human required. Will kill the taxi trade." Not only the taxi trade. Lorry drivers, van drivers, coach drivers, bus drivers and any other driving I would have thought. It is a long way off yet, not in my lifetime, but it will happen | |||
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"Everywhere I read, it says you cannot be in charge of a self-driving car if you are over the current drink drive limit." No because it states that you have to be ready to take over the driving in an emergency | |||
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"Everywhere I read, it says you cannot be in charge of a self-driving car if you are over the current drink drive limit." The "self driving", autonomous vehicles on the roads today, like Tesla need human input and I can certainly see that being the case. The self driving, no human input needed vehicles are not on the roads yet other than in trials. I wouldn't expect those to have the same rules. Passengers would be in the back of the vehicle, they would not know how to engage with the vehicle and they wouldn't need to know how to drive. | |||
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"Everywhere I read, it says you cannot be in charge of a self-driving car if you are over the current drink drive limit. The "self driving", autonomous vehicles on the roads today, like Tesla need human input and I can certainly see that being the case. The self driving, no human input needed vehicles are not on the roads yet other than in trials. I wouldn't expect those to have the same rules. Passengers would be in the back of the vehicle, they would not know how to engage with the vehicle and they wouldn't need to know how to drive." Thats what happens with Waymo at the moment in the states. | |||
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"If the car is anything other than a taxi independent of your ownership, then the drink/drive rules apply. " It's not certain at the moment. The law says that if you are "in control of" a vehicle, then you are subject to the alcohol/drug limits. Case law has found that sleeping in a car, or just standing near a car holding the keys, amounts to being "in control". We would need to have a case brought to court before it can be decided whether a person in a level 4 car was "in control" or not. My opinion is that there is a strong case for an owner not being "in control" of a level 4 vehicle, even if they own and program it. But it's up to the courts to decide. Having said that I expect the law to be changed soonish to explicitly state the liability for control in a level 4 vehicle. Then we'll all know for certain. | |||
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"It is certain. If you have charge of the car - usual drink drive drugs law applies. Easy to find." If it's easy to find, you won't have trouble providing a suitable authoritative link. | |||
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"CAn't post the AA or RAC here. "Well then I'll have a go: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/5 Section 5 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says: (1)If a person— (a)drives or attempts to drive a motor vehicle on a road or other public place, or (b)is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place,after consuming so much alcohol that the proportion of it in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit he is guilty of an offence. (2)It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1)(b) above to prove that at the time he is alleged to have committed the offence the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle whilst the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine remained likely to exceed the prescribed limit. I think there's a strong case to be put that a person was not driving the vehicle. They were just sitting in it while it did the driving on its own. The law says nothing about self-driving cars, so any judge trying the case would have to decide whether the person was indeed driving or not. The second part is "in charge of". There's no doubt that an owner of a self-driving car is "in charge of" it, but you'll note that part 2 above states that it is a defence to claim that there was no possibility of you driving, which is the case in a self-driving car. I'll just make it clear again that I'm talking about level 4 cars, i.e. cars that aren't available for purchase yet. If you're driving a Tesla, you're in a level 3 car and are definitely "driving". | |||
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"But alternatively you are suggesting that the government actually would pass a law that says if you are in your own car that is being self-driven knock your self out with the alcohol hahaha." Yes. At the moment you can be above the limit on a bus, because someone else is driving. You can be above the limit in a taxi, because someone else is driving. In the future I would expect that it would be legal to be above the limit in your own car, as long as you had no access to the controls to drive it manually. | |||
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"But alternatively you are suggesting that the government actually would pass a law that says if you are in your own car that is being self-driven knock your self out with the alcohol hahaha. I can see people carrier party bar on board sales going through roof!!! "I expect people may not own truly self driving cars, maybe they will, but mostly I expect cars to be more like the taxi service google are developing. Either way, self driving cars are years ahead of anything we have on the roads today. Passengers, not drivers are nowhere near the steering wheel and do not need to know how to drive. Having a driver defeats the whole idea. | |||
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"But alternatively you are suggesting that the government actually would pass a law that says if you are in your own car that is being self-driven knock your self out with the alcohol hahaha. Yes. At the moment you can be above the limit on a bus, because someone else is driving. You can be above the limit in a taxi, because someone else is driving. In the future I would expect that it would be legal to be above the limit in your own car, as long as you had no access to the controls to drive it manually." But you don't own the bus do you? Once again . . . I said if you own the car . . . and are legally in charge of it . . . But you must still follow all relevant laws, such as: 'you must be fit to drive (for example you must be within the drink drive legal limits and not be under the influence of drugs) – see rules 90 to 96' .gov (with direct regard to self driving cars.) | |||
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"People touched on a good point about parking. Currently a lot of people have cars but they only use it a few hours a day. Utilisation is low so you end up with a lot of cars in the country that need parking. A cab model means cars have higher utilisation, spend more time transporting people and less need to be parked." | |||
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"But you must still follow all relevant laws, such as: 'you must be fit to drive (for example you must be within the drink drive legal limits and not be under the influence of drugs) – see rules 90 to 96'" That's not the law, that's the Highway Code. But since you've brought it up, rule 96 says "You MUST NOT drive under the influence of drugs or medicine". It doesn't say 'you must not sit in the back of a car which is being driven by an automated system'. In fact it doesn't mention self-driving cars at all. ".gov (with direct regard to self driving cars.)" Please post the link so that we can all see what the government says about self-driving cars. | |||
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"But alternatively you are suggesting that the government actually would pass a law that says if you are in your own car that is being self-driven knock your self out with the alcohol hahaha. I can see people carrier party bar on board sales going through roof!!!
I expect people may not own truly self driving cars, maybe they will, but mostly I expect cars to be more like the taxi service google are developing.
Either way, self driving cars are years ahead of anything we have on the roads today. Passengers, not drivers are nowhere near the steering wheel and do not need to know how to drive. Having a driver defeats the whole idea. "Good, no more stinky Uber drivers!!!! | |||
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"But alternatively you are suggesting that the government actually would pass a law that says if you are in your own car that is being self-driven knock your self out with the alcohol hahaha. I can see people carrier party bar on board sales going through roof!!!
I expect people may not own truly self driving cars, maybe they will, but mostly I expect cars to be more like the taxi service google are developing.
Either way, self driving cars are years ahead of anything we have on the roads today. Passengers, not drivers are nowhere near the steering wheel and do not need to know how to drive. Having a driver defeats the whole idea.
Good, no more stinky Uber drivers!!!!"I agree, I was in a Uber driven by a man from Slough when I was in London and he absolutely stank | |||
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"But alternatively you are suggesting that the government actually would pass a law that says if you are in your own car that is being self-driven knock your self out with the alcohol hahaha. I can see people carrier party bar on board sales going through roof!!!
I expect people may not own truly self driving cars, maybe they will, but mostly I expect cars to be more like the taxi service google are developing.
Either way, self driving cars are years ahead of anything we have on the roads today. Passengers, not drivers are nowhere near the steering wheel and do not need to know how to drive. Having a driver defeats the whole idea.
Good, no more stinky Uber drivers!!!!
I agree, I was in a Uber driven by a man from Slough when I was in London and he absolutely stank "You poor thing!!! | |||
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"But alternatively you are suggesting that the government actually would pass a law that says if you are in your own car that is being self-driven knock your self out with the alcohol hahaha. I can see people carrier party bar on board sales going through roof!!!
I expect people may not own truly self driving cars, maybe they will, but mostly I expect cars to be more like the taxi service google are developing.
Either way, self driving cars are years ahead of anything we have on the roads today. Passengers, not drivers are nowhere near the steering wheel and do not need to know how to drive. Having a driver defeats the whole idea.
Good, no more stinky Uber drivers!!!!
I agree, I was in a Uber driven by a man from Slough when I was in London and he absolutely stank
You poor thing!!!"I know, are all Uber drivers ‘stinky’ or just those from slough | |||
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"https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/safe-use-rules-for-automated-vehicles-av/outcome/rules-on-the-safe-use-of-automated-vehicles-summary-of-responses-and-government-response" Thanks for the link. The third paragraph of that document describes ALKS (Automated Lane Keeping System), and the document goes on to explain that the changes to the Highway Code are to allow the use of ALKS. ALKS is a level 3 system. As I have stated repeatedly above, I'm talking about level 4 systems, which don't require a human driver to operate. | |||
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