FabSwingers.com forum: Post-Putin Russia

By *V-Alice OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

Obviously, eventually, it will be a thing. Hopefully, nuclear weapons won't have been used - because that would be a different reality altogether.

Assuming it's just him that goes, do we try welcoming Russia back into the fold; if they have a leader who the West can work with?

Lots is constantly said, even by our hypocritical leaders, of how we don't have a problem with the Russian people, just their leadership.

Equally, a lot of the rhetoric right now is all about crushing the Russian economy and never having to rely on their resources ever again.

I think it's worth considering what happened after WWI - the way the allies treated Germany led to Nazism and an even worse world war.

After WWII, despite the evils Germany and Japan visited upon the world, their peoples were not punished by the victors; their countries were rebuilt.

After the Cold War ended and the Soviet Union broke up, the West missed an opportunity and took more of a post-WWI attitude to Russia (other than being happy to take their oligarchs' money); and here we are.

Like post-WWI, not really the West's fault - but similar disdain for the defeated, similar outcome; except Putin has access to nuclear weapons.

Whilst, obviously, I am in favour of - against all their instincts - the Tories doing the right thing and not wanting anything to do with corrupt Russian money; will they also lead (if they're in government) a movement to welcome the Russian people back to the fold?

Or will they alienate them to the point that being closer to China is their only option?

Surely, that can't be for the best?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hmm Russia was welcomed into the fold many times and broke of its own volition

If it withdrew from all occupied territory and cancelled most of its military missions to prop up dictators then yes without a doubt.

Doubt it though as after Putin there will be a contest for power.Those who actually care for their country tend to do poorly in such a struggle.

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By *V-Alice OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

"Hmm Russia was welcomed into the fold many times and broke of its own volition

If it withdrew from all occupied territory and cancelled most of its military missions to prop up dictators then yes without a doubt.

Doubt it though as after Putin there will be a contest for power.Those who actually care for their country tend to do poorly in such a struggle."

Sadly, I share your pessimism - though I'm struggling to think of all the opportunities Russia has been given to become more like us.

I don't think there were "many". Although, I am sure they turned any opportunities down - probably due to a lack of trust in who was doing the offering.

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By *x cplCouple
over a year ago

North of Oxford

"Hmm Russia was welcomed into the fold many times and broke of its own volition

If it withdrew from all occupied territory and cancelled most of its military missions to prop up dictators then yes without a doubt.

Doubt it though as after Putin there will be a contest for power.Those who actually care for their country tend to do poorly in such a struggle."
opposition to the current government in Russia is either in exile prison or dead. Most Russians still have a highly distorted view of western lifestyle. Remember they still need visas to travel to most countries. So only the wealthy 1 or 2 % can achieve foreign travel even less than citizens of USA. As we have seen over the last few weeks the news from Russian media is far different to western news and the saying goes get told a thing often enough and you begin to believe it. If putin was ousted suddenly there would probably be a power vacuum (he doesn't allow anyone who could possibly be a rival or to be a successor anywhere near him or the reigns of power) the lower power base would for all intents and purposes probably end up fighting each other for what they could personally get and not a boardroom fight but full blown gun fights. with the possibility of Russia splitting into separate regions/countries as yugoslavia did as there is no clear evidence of anyone strong enough to replace him.

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By *arakiss12TV/TS
over a year ago

Bedford

Yeh sure welcome them back, but after they've repaired not just Ukraine but everyones bank balance adversley affected by economic knock ons like fuel prices.

Pootin is a bloody idiot.

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By *arakiss12TV/TS
over a year ago

Bedford

"Yeh sure welcome them back, but after they've repaired not just Ukraine but everyones bank balance adversley affected by economic knock ons like fuel prices.

Pootin is a bloody idiot."

Xi Jinping is the another idiot too.

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By *estivalMan
over a year ago

borehamwood

Im not to sure there would be much of russia or the ukraine left if he starts to feel the net closing in, comes across as the sort of person who would rather destroy everything than let others take control

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Obviously, eventually, it will be a thing. Hopefully, nuclear weapons won't have been used - because that would be a different reality altogether.

Assuming it's just him that goes, do we try welcoming Russia back into the fold; if they have a leader who the West can work with?

Lots is constantly said, even by our hypocritical leaders, of how we don't have a problem with the Russian people, just their leadership.

Equally, a lot of the rhetoric right now is all about crushing the Russian economy and never having to rely on their resources ever again.

I think it's worth considering what happened after WWI - the way the allies treated Germany led to Nazism and an even worse world war.

After WWII, despite the evils Germany and Japan visited upon the world, their peoples were not punished by the victors; their countries were rebuilt.

Like post-WWI, not really the West's fault - but similar disdain for the defeated, similar outcome; except Putin has access to nuclear weapons.

Or will they alienate them to the point that being closer to China is their only option?

Surely, that can't be for the best?"

A lesson from history here, WWI punative reparations were the cause of the rise of Hitler and led to WW2.

Like Germany and Japan post war the same thing should happen, Deputinfication and rebuild, but stage 1 removal of Putin and his cronies to realise this.

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

If Russia rid themselves of their autocratic & oppressive dictatorship, introduced free and open elections (and didn't imprison dissenters), and stopped trying to be a "Big Superpower", then they stand a chance of entering a new age.

Germany did it and their leadership committed a Holocaust. So Russia's future leadership have no excuse to follow a different path.

Russia could be a "Germany" of the future. They could be a EU member and also a NATO member. This would give them massive protection and advantage on the world stage. They would be "in the club".

With no need to spend vast sums on their military, apart from Nato committments and their own national security forces, the amount of money save to improve their nation would be immense.

Essentially the whole of Eastern and Western Europe would be united, and in unification there is strength.

I'm sure someone will say "Won't that threaten China?" and I'd say, "Why do we need to threaten them ?". Extend the hand of friendship and opportunity. Join the biggest collective in the world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If Russia rid themselves of their autocratic & oppressive dictatorship, introduced free and open elections (and didn't imprison dissenters), and stopped trying to be a "Big Superpower", then they stand a chance of entering a new age.

Germany did it and their leadership committed a Holocaust. So Russia's future leadership have no excuse to follow a different path.

Russia could be a "Germany" of the future. They could be a EU member and also a NATO member. This would give them massive protection and advantage on the world stage. They would be "in the club".

With no need to spend vast sums on their military, apart from Nato committments and their own national security forces, the amount of money save to improve their nation would be immense.

Essentially the whole of Eastern and Western Europe would be united, and in unification there is strength.

I'm sure someone will say "Won't that threaten China?" and I'd say, "Why do we need to threaten them ?". Extend the hand of friendship and opportunity. Join the biggest collective in the world.

agreed, Putin and his friends need to be removed and democracy must be established for the Russian people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Russia would be fine if the US and their agencies stopped fucking with them in one way or another.

The moment they first shielded Bandera and others from prosecution in their grand plan against the ussr they lost all moral high ground and seemingly haven’t learnt their lesson.

All of this could have been avoided if Clinton and the US establishment had not turned Russia down to join NATO. Right now they’d have been on our side instead of being further pushed into the CCPs arms day by day.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Germany did it and their leadership committed a Holocaust. So Russia's future leadership have no excuse to follow a different path.

Russia could be a "Germany" of the future. They could be a EU member and also a NATO member. This would give them massive protection and advantage on the world stage. They would be "in the club".

With no need to spend vast sums on their military, apart from Nato committments and their own national security forces, the amount of money save to improve their nation would be immense.

Essentially the whole of Eastern and Western Europe would be united, and in unification there is strength.

I'm sure someone will say "Won't that threaten China?" and I'd say, "Why do we need to threaten them ?". Extend the hand of friendship and opportunity. Join the biggest collective in the world.

Some countries don't want to subject to the US whims and wishes. Being part of the western club is what that entails.

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