FabSwingers.com forum: Solution: Ukraine to declare itself neutral?

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Hi all,

I was listening to the radio yesterday and there was a guy called Jeffrey Sachs talking. He's a US economist who served as a special advisor to three UN General Secretaries.

I've listened back again and here are his main points:

1)Diplomacy remains the only way to solve this crisis

2) Ukrainian neutrality and them not becoming a member of NATO would be a path forward to protecting Ukraine's sovereignty, the withdrawal of Russian forces and the way to peace.

3)He doesn't believe the current strategy of escalating sanctions and flooding Ukraine with weapons is going to resolve the crisis. He believes it will make it worse, for the Ukrainians first and foremost and ultimately for the whole world.

4)Entire approach of inviting Ukraine to become a member of NATO and declaring in 2008 that they would become a member,participation by the US in the overthrow of a pro-Russian (and democratically elected)regime in 2014 leading right up to last November to a new "strategic agreement" between the US & Ukraine re-affirming Ukrainian membership in NATO - all very provocative and dangerous according to Mr Sachs.

5) He says there's no guarantee that diplomacy will work but says that we have not even tested the range of diplomatic options because the US has said that the issue of NATO and Ukraine is off the table which he says is a serious diplomatic and geopolitical error on the part of the West.

6)But if Ukraine is a independent sovereign state then surely it is their choice if they want to join NATO?

He says sovereign countries should have good sense to understand their geography not to act provocatively. Their true friends should the good sense not to put their friends at risk.

This right to join a military alliance in this world we live in is no right at all as military alliances have implications for neighbours.

Mexico has a right to have a military alliance with China for example but the US government would not for one second stand up for Mexico (or Canada) right to align themselves with China militarily.

When Castro tried that with the Soviet Union, the US invaded Cuba.

This "right to join NATO" is simply a wrong way of understanding military alliances.

The US should have had the good sense not to push its alliance into a 1,200 mile border with Russia. A terrible blunder that did no favours for Ukraine.

7)So is the West right to provide support and arms to Ukraine now that the invasion is well under way?

Not unless we also have diplomacy on the table. We will not end up with a military victory against Russia he says by flooding Ukraine with arms.

What we could end up with would be a military confrontation between US/NATO Russia.

Some sense must prevail.

Peace must be re-established and Ukrainian sovereignty assured.

THOUGHTS?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Very interesting post but quite long so I will just reply to point 7.

Yes I think the West are right simply because we have to show Russia they can't just sweep across Europe without any resistance from the West and yes I understand we are not having boots on the ground or engaging in actual combat.

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By *6travellerMan
over a year ago

Tayside, Midlands and Chester

All bollocks from Sachs. Every country has the right to democratically decide its own future. The NATO but is a red herring, Russia already has NATO members on its borders. Putin is wrong, quite simple he is wrong and the Russian people need to be given the chance of a free and democratic government.

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol

I don’t think I would trust Putin on anything he says as he does not recognise Ukraine as a sovereign state or it’s people as Ukrainians.

His end game is total takeover at all costs with a puppet leader in charge.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"All bollocks from Sachs. Every country has the right to democratically decide its own future. The NATO but is a red herring, Russia already has NATO members on its borders. Putin is wrong, quite simple he is wrong and the Russian people need to be given the chance of a free and democratic government. "

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

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By *a LunaWoman
over a year ago

South Wales

I think it has gone too far for diplomacy. I don’t think Putin has any interest in diplomacy, all the talks with Ukraine are just a thin veneer of being seen to try and resolve matters, but you know it’s not done with any meaningful purpose, it’s just for show. I’m sure Ukraine are trying their best to negotiate in an attempt to save lives etc., but short of handing over their Country on a plate, what is the answer? I don’t know.

I’m certain that most Countries who are watching on the unfolding horrors and would love to step in and kick ass. But they can’t. That would make matters worse, not just for Ukraine but for other Countries. All we can do is help from the sidelines and keep on doing what we are doing, but do it more efficiently, and far more effectively than we currently are.

Putin is not someone who is all talk. We all know what he is capable of. That is why everyone is wary. Yes you can go in all guns blazing and open a can of whup ass, but actions have consequences.

It’s a very sad state of affairs, and there will be no happy ending. Those are my thoughts.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I think it has gone too far for diplomacy. I don’t think Putin has any interest in diplomacy, all the talks with Ukraine are just a thin veneer of being seen to try and resolve matters, but you know it’s not done with any meaningful purpose, it’s just for show. I’m sure Ukraine are trying their best to negotiate in an attempt to save lives etc., but short of handing over their Country on a plate, what is the answer? I don’t know.

Putin is not someone who is all talk. We all know what he is capable of. That is why everyone is wary. Yes you can go in all guns blazing and open a can of whup ass, but actions have consequences.

It’s a very sad state of affairs, and there will be no happy ending. Those are my thoughts.

But has the West any interest in diplomacy? Doesn't seem like it saying that NATO membership is off the table

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I don’t think I would trust Putin on anything he says as he does not recognise Ukraine as a sovereign state or it’s people as Ukrainians.

His end game is total takeover at all costs with a puppet leader in charge.

I don't trust Putin. I don't trust Johnson, Macron, Biden or any of the rest of them either.

What we are being told is one way propaganda. Maybe if we had propaganda from the other side a balanced viewed could be found

Its no wonder the whole anti vax thing blew up like it did when our governments lie to us and fool us into believing what they want us to believe.

This issue is far more complex than is being made out but nobody wants to know about it.

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By *a LunaWoman
over a year ago

South Wales

“But has the West any interest in diplomacy? Doesn't seem like it saying that NATO membership is off the table”

I’m sure they do, hasn’t the French president been speaking with Putin to try and (diplomatically) resolve issues? But Putin is determined to forge onwards.

If NATO were to allow a NATO membership now then Putin would (as he has already said) see that as an act of war by NATO Countries and would attack accordingly. However they are supplying various arms and aid in an attempt to help (but that’s a bit like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted). The UK have trained Ukraine soldiers too in anticipation of an invasion, so they stand more of a chance. But in reality there is only so much you can do before being seen to be involved without declaring yourself involved.

I believe the Ukraine applied to start a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) way back in 2008. NATO membership plans were shelved by the Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election where Viktor Yanukovych who preferred to keep the country non-aligned won elections and became President. I’m not sure how long it takes for NATO paperwork to go through, but I suspect leaving it until you hear on the grapevine that Russia wants to invade you is not going to wash with NATO. They want you to join during peaceful times. Which is understandable, because otherwise you risk involving 30 other member Countries (and their populations) in War.

I’m sure it’s all far more complicated than we know or can even imagine. Bureaucratic reasons etc.

Now I’m no military expert and know chuff all about the complicated reasonings behind all this, so I stand corrected if wrong or if there is a way to solve all this. I just can’t see it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don't you think its time we found out out if all these nukes we spend billions on actually work..?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do bear in mind that NATO is a defensive alliance all members have to declare a threat to them before other members can join in any war.

Russia wants to annex the part its vassals control and turn the rest into a puppet state while moving westward.They are the clear aggressor in all this and should be sanctioned appropriately any deal with them that does not involve withdrawal of occupied territory is a clear endorsement of this.

All of Europe needs to be prepared to cut off Russia for a long time before they make the decision for us.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

But by saying the issue of NATO membership is off the table is like saying we want to talk to Russia about chess or tennis.

The whole issue hinges on NATO expansion.

Why would Russia go to talks with the most critical issue of the whole conflict being off the table?

Yes Macron has been speaking to Putin but what about everyone else? And what are they even speaking about?

Putin is actually speaking to Macron too don't forget. What about the UK and the US? Where are they when diplomacy is needed?

This whole mess is just as much the fault of US/NATO as it is Russia. But of course we won't hear that on the news here.

It might help if people actually just sat down and questioned what they are being told by their governments and the media. If they arrive at the same views they had before then fine but most people don't want to do that.

There's an often quoted line that says "Truth is the first casualty of war". I'm sure most people have heard it. Pity they dont want to understand it.

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

Look at what's just happened. Putin meets Lukashenko, broadcasting the meeting on TV so citizens can hear things are moving positively in negotiations.

All the while a jet sets off from Belarus, heads into Ukraine and fires back hitting Belarusian village of Kopani. Essentially looking to escalate hostilities in blaming Ukraine for the attack.

Putin invaded Ukraine for its own means. Propaganda will continue, by any means, to legitimise it. Only Putin can call an end.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Look at what's just happened. Putin meets Lukashenko, broadcasting the meeting on TV so citizens can hear things are moving positively in negotiations.

All the while a jet sets off from Belarus, heads into Ukraine and fires back hitting Belarusian village of Kopani. Essentially looking to escalate hostilities in blaming Ukraine for the attack.

Putin invaded Ukraine for its own means. Propaganda will continue, by any means, to legitimise it. Only Putin can call an end."

No. Only the West AND Putin can call an end to it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Look at what's just happened. Putin meets Lukashenko, broadcasting the meeting on TV so citizens can hear things are moving positively in negotiations.

All the while a jet sets off from Belarus, heads into Ukraine and fires back hitting Belarusian village of Kopani. Essentially looking to escalate hostilities in blaming Ukraine for the attack.

Putin invaded Ukraine for its own means. Propaganda will continue, by any means, to legitimise it. Only Putin can call an end.

No. Only the West AND Putin can call an end to it. "

Who is this ‘The West’ all us 600 million Europeans not under Russias boot,Should we accept any and all Russian demands in the name of peace?

When did we show aggression towards Russia unprovoked?, when did the Ukrainians?,When did the Georgians?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I shouldnt need to explain who the West is now should I.

You dont think NATO expanding eastwards since 1990 after the promise of "not once inch eastwards" is not an act of aggression?

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By *al2001Man
over a year ago

kildare

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean? "

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I shouldnt need to explain who the West is now should I.

You dont think NATO expanding eastwards since 1990 after the promise of "not once inch eastwards" is not an act of aggression?

Well Nato had a get out clause. They told Putin years ago that

" the promise of not to expand Nato eastward was made to the Soviet Union. As the Soviet Union no longer exists, the promise is no longer valid"

Even Gorbachev and Yeltsin in their later regretted making concessions to the west and felt the west couldn't be trusted.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I shouldnt need to explain who the West is now should I.

You dont think NATO expanding eastwards since 1990 after the promise of "not once inch eastwards" is not an act of aggression?

Maybe your definition no but the Russian is literally every democratic country in Europe is this ‘West’ and therefore the inevitable enemy.

That promise was never said aloud allegedly in a backroom deal and even if that it was to the soviet Union,The Federation of Russia and the country of Ukraine declared their independence from the Union.

How should we be bound by “treaty” to a country that no longer exists that was “signed” by only the Americans?

Should Ukraine be allowed to Join the EU is my counter question?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I shouldnt need to explain who the West is now should I.

You dont think NATO expanding eastwards since 1990 after the promise of "not once inch eastwards" is not an act of aggression?

Well Nato had a get out clause. They told Putin years ago that

" the promise of not to expand Nato eastward was made to the Soviet Union. As the Soviet Union no longer exists, the promise is no longer valid"

Even Gorbachev and Yeltsin in their later regretted making concessions to the west and felt the west couldn't be trusted."

Well since it was never a binding agreement there wasn't a clause as such.

Seems both were right so!

Still if you look at it from the Russian perspective (which no one is seemingly willing to do) you can see how they feel threatened by NATO...and rightly so in my opinion.

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By *eanoCoolMan
over a year ago

wisbech

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power."

Thats funny because the majority of Ukraine was very happy with election result, seems it was what they wanted but of course Putin didn't and certainly it seems that the majority of Ukraine has no wish to be Russian or they would not be fighting a unjust invasion.

Ukraine should have the right to choose its own destiny.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I shouldnt need to explain who the West is now should I.

You dont think NATO expanding eastwards since 1990 after the promise of "not once inch eastwards" is not an act of aggression?

Maybe your definition no but the Russian is literally every democratic country in Europe is this ‘West’ and therefore the inevitable enemy.

How should we be bound by “treaty” to a country that no longer exists that was “signed” by only the Americans?

Should Ukraine be allowed to Join the EU is my counter question?"

Hmmm, the EU I'm not familiar enough with that issue to say.

NATO I would say definitely not. Look at Finland. Its an EU member but not a member of NATO and also shares a large border with Russia...but Ukraine has more ties to Russia.

All I'm saying in the post is the whole issue is FAR FAR more complex than we are being lead to believe.

This whole Russia is bad, the West is good narrative is neither helpful or constructive.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

Ukraine should have the right to choose its own destiny."

I don't get you? The majority of the electorate was happy with the result?

A democratically elected leader was ousted

In theory yes every country should have the right to do whatever it wants but that's not how the works works.

Do you think the USA would defend Mexico's right to militarily align itself with China?

They'd be pouring over the border with tanks and weapons in no time

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By *al2001Man
over a year ago

kildare

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power."

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

So you're saying that it's okay if the West helped to topple a democratically elected leader?

In fact they do it all the time, particularly the US.

Kinda defeats the whole point of democracy and elections then doesn't it

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By *eanoCoolMan
over a year ago

wisbech

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

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By *al2001Man
over a year ago

kildare

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

So you're saying that it's okay if the West helped to topple a democratically elected leader?

In fact they do it all the time, particularly the US.

Kinda defeats the whole point of democracy and elections then doesn't it"

The people of Ukraine ousted their leader,same as who voted him in.

And for very good reason,the people wanted to be closer to eu and their corrupt thieving putin backed leader didn't.

When they protested,as is their right,he ordered them to be shot.

Then he was ousted.

Sounds just to me.

I hope we did help the Ukrainians

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By *eanoCoolMan
over a year ago

wisbech

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

Ukraine should have the right to choose its own destiny.

I don't get you? The majority of the electorate was happy with the result?

A democratically elected leader was ousted

In theory yes every country should have the right to do whatever it wants but that's not how the works works.

Do you think the USA would defend Mexico's right to militarily align itself with China?

They'd be pouring over the border with tanks and weapons in no time"

Call it what you like, but the majority of Ukraine clearly doesn't want to be part of Russia do they so want putin wants is immaterial. Ukraine wishes to be free to make its own choices as it has stated so surely putin should accept that and leave them alone. I really dont know how you can post in his defence whilst 1000s of innocent Ukrainian people are dying.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

So you're saying that it's okay if the West helped to topple a democratically elected leader?

In fact they do it all the time, particularly the US.

Kinda defeats the whole point of democracy and elections then doesn't it

The people of Ukraine ousted their leader,same as who voted him in.

And for very good reason,the people wanted to be closer to eu and their corrupt thieving putin backed leader didn't.

When they protested,as is their right,he ordered them to be shot.

Then he was ousted.

Sounds just to me.

I hope we did help the Ukrainians "

So democracy but just when it suits us. That's a great deal

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By *al2001Man
over a year ago

kildare

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

So you're saying that it's okay if the West helped to topple a democratically elected leader?

In fact they do it all the time, particularly the US.

Kinda defeats the whole point of democracy and elections then doesn't it

The people of Ukraine ousted their leader,same as who voted him in.

And for very good reason,the people wanted to be closer to eu and their corrupt thieving putin backed leader didn't.

When they protested,as is their right,he ordered them to be shot.

Then he was ousted.

Sounds just to me.

I hope we did help the Ukrainians

So democracy but just when it suits us. That's a great deal "

What are you talking about?

The Ukraine revolution was democracy at work,a revolution by the people

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

Ukraine should have the right to choose its own destiny.

I don't get you? The majority of the electorate was happy with the result?

A democratically elected leader was ousted

In theory yes every country should have the right to do whatever it wants but that's not how the works works.

Do you think the USA would defend Mexico's right to militarily align itself with China?

They'd be pouring over the border with tanks and weapons in no time

I'm asking questions that everyone (including you) should be asking

How did the conflict get to this? The reasons for it. How can it be resolved?

I'm not for one minute pro Russian. Neither am I pro NATO. The two of them have Ukraine in the s*hit and yes innocent people are dying.

Flooding Ukraine with weapons is not going to stop that.

Diplomacy is our only hope so when is the US/NATO, The West and Russia going to sit down and talk with the issue of NATO membership ON the table?

Until that happens this conflict will only continue to escalate

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

So you're saying that it's okay if the West helped to topple a democratically elected leader?

In fact they do it all the time, particularly the US.

Kinda defeats the whole point of democracy and elections then doesn't it

The people of Ukraine ousted their leader,same as who voted him in.

And for very good reason,the people wanted to be closer to eu and their corrupt thieving putin backed leader didn't.

When they protested,as is their right,he ordered them to be shot.

Then he was ousted.

Sounds just to me.

I hope we did help the Ukrainians

So democracy but just when it suits us. That's a great deal

What are you talking about?

The Ukraine revolution was democracy at work,a revolution by the people

I can't understand what you are saying

You're saying that a revolution to overthrown a democratically elected government is "democracy in action"?

Is that really what you are trying to say?

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By *al2001Man
over a year ago

kildare

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

So you're saying that it's okay if the West helped to topple a democratically elected leader?

In fact they do it all the time, particularly the US.

Kinda defeats the whole point of democracy and elections then doesn't it

The people of Ukraine ousted their leader,same as who voted him in.

And for very good reason,the people wanted to be closer to eu and their corrupt thieving putin backed leader didn't.

When they protested,as is their right,he ordered them to be shot.

Then he was ousted.

Sounds just to me.

I hope we did help the Ukrainians

So democracy but just when it suits us. That's a great deal

What are you talking about?

The Ukraine revolution was democracy at work,a revolution by the people

I can't understand what you are saying

You're saying that a revolution to overthrown a democratically elected government is "democracy in action"?

Is that really what you are trying to say?"

I think you better go read up on that revolution

The same people who elected him ousted him when he moved towards tyranny like his backer putin and started murdering them

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

So you're saying that it's okay if the West helped to topple a democratically elected leader?

In fact they do it all the time, particularly the US.

Kinda defeats the whole point of democracy and elections then doesn't it

The people of Ukraine ousted their leader,same as who voted him in.

And for very good reason,the people wanted to be closer to eu and their corrupt thieving putin backed leader didn't.

When they protested,as is their right,he ordered them to be shot.

Then he was ousted.

Sounds just to me.

I hope we did help the Ukrainians

So democracy but just when it suits us. That's a great deal

What are you talking about?

The Ukraine revolution was democracy at work,a revolution by the people

I can't understand what you are saying

You're saying that a revolution to overthrown a democratically elected government is "democracy in action"?

Is that really what you are trying to say?

I think you better go read up on that revolution

The same people who elected him ousted him when he moved towards tyranny like his backer putin and started murdering them

I still cant believe that you think ousting a democratically elected leader not by popular ballot but by revolution is democracy in action

Democracy is voting people in and out not voting them in and throwing them out.

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By *eanoCoolMan
over a year ago

wisbech

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

Ukraine should have the right to choose its own destiny.

I don't get you? The majority of the electorate was happy with the result?

A democratically elected leader was ousted

In theory yes every country should have the right to do whatever it wants but that's not how the works works.

Do you think the USA would defend Mexico's right to militarily align itself with China?

They'd be pouring over the border with tanks and weapons in no time

I'm asking questions that everyone (including you) should be asking

How did the conflict get to this? The reasons for it. How can it be resolved?

I'm not for one minute pro Russian. Neither am I pro NATO. The two of them have Ukraine in the s*hit and yes innocent people are dying.

Flooding Ukraine with weapons is not going to stop that.

Diplomacy is our only hope so when is the US/NATO, The West and Russia going to sit down and talk with the issue of NATO membership ON the table?

Until that happens this conflict will only continue to escalate

I agree diplomacy is the best way and that was happening until Russia invaded, and I am sure still would have been if he had not attacked. Ukraine itself (regardless of US or anyone else's wishes) has made it quite plain it wishes to join Nato and the EU and Putin does not want that, he wants them to be close to Russia again, which Ukraine does not want thats why we now have a conflict. If he had respected the wishes of Ukraine there would have been no need for him to invade and there would be no conflict and no innocent people dying.

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

So you're saying that it's okay if the West helped to topple a democratically elected leader?

In fact they do it all the time, particularly the US.

Kinda defeats the whole point of democracy and elections then doesn't it

The people of Ukraine ousted their leader,same as who voted him in.

And for very good reason,the people wanted to be closer to eu and their corrupt thieving putin backed leader didn't.

When they protested,as is their right,he ordered them to be shot.

Then he was ousted.

Sounds just to me.

I hope we did help the Ukrainians

So democracy but just when it suits us. That's a great deal

What are you talking about?

The Ukraine revolution was democracy at work,a revolution by the people

I can't understand what you are saying

You're saying that a revolution to overthrown a democratically elected government is "democracy in action"?

Is that really what you are trying to say?

I think you better go read up on that revolution

The same people who elected him ousted him when he moved towards tyranny like his backer putin and started murdering them

I still cant believe that you think ousting a democratically elected leader not by popular ballot but by revolution is democracy in action

Democracy is voting people in and out not voting them in and throwing them out."

And do you really think they would have been able to bite him out ?

He was a Putin stooge just like the Belarusian leader is.

It was only a matter of time before Putin started to claw back the parts that used to be in the old USSR

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By *al2001Man
over a year ago

kildare

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

So you're saying that it's okay if the West helped to topple a democratically elected leader?

In fact they do it all the time, particularly the US.

Kinda defeats the whole point of democracy and elections then doesn't it

The people of Ukraine ousted their leader,same as who voted him in.

And for very good reason,the people wanted to be closer to eu and their corrupt thieving putin backed leader didn't.

When they protested,as is their right,he ordered them to be shot.

Then he was ousted.

Sounds just to me.

I hope we did help the Ukrainians

So democracy but just when it suits us. That's a great deal

What are you talking about?

The Ukraine revolution was democracy at work,a revolution by the people

I can't understand what you are saying

You're saying that a revolution to overthrown a democratically elected government is "democracy in action"?

Is that really what you are trying to say?

I think you better go read up on that revolution

The same people who elected him ousted him when he moved towards tyranny like his backer putin and started murdering them

I still cant believe that you think ousting a democratically elected leader not by popular ballot but by revolution is democracy in action

Democracy is voting people in and out not voting them in and throwing them out."

Did you miss the part where I said he ordered his troops to murder peaceful protesters

The people standing up to tyranny is a vital part of democracy

Revolution,when essential and just,is a vital part of democracy too

As we know well here in ireland

Some of us at least

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Have a look at the Russian Mod website, a quite staggering amount of bullshit/propaganda on there...unfortunately a lot of Russian people are falling for it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Have a look at the Russian Mod website, a quite staggering amount of bullshit/propaganda on there...unfortunately a lot of Russian people are falling for it

Its a shame they can't get with the programme.

Russia/China= Bad

West/ Ukraine =Good

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The whole issue can be boiled down to this, the west is being hypocritical right now towards Russia.

They have the example of the United States and many others to refer to in guidance of their actions.

If you weren’t up in arms about all of those past invasions and interventions and calling for all these sanctions and actions against those nations too, then you are a hypocrite.

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

"The whole issue can be boiled down to this, the west is being hypocritical right now towards Russia.

They have the example of the United States and many others to refer to in guidance of their actions.

If you weren’t up in arms about all of those past invasions and interventions and calling for all these sanctions and actions against those nations too, then you are a hypocrite."

Good grief

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The whole issue can be boiled down to this, the west is being hypocritical right now towards Russia.

They have the example of the United States and many others to refer to in guidance of their actions.

If you weren’t up in arms about all of those past invasions and interventions and calling for all these sanctions and actions against those nations too, then you are a hypocrite."

Like I said your not getting with the programme.

Russia/China= Bad

West/ Ukraine =Good

Get yourself with it boy.

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

A sovereign country should not be forced to declare itself neutral... however Putin has to be given a way out

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A sovereign country should not be forced to declare itself neutral... however Putin has to be given a way out "

Very naive view, a smaller neighbor of a bigger country especially a nuclear power has to consider that countries concerns.

Just like Mexico couldn't go full tilt against the U.S interests or Taiwan against China's.

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"A sovereign country should not be forced to declare itself neutral... however Putin has to be given a way out

Very naive view, a smaller neighbor of a bigger country especially a nuclear power has to consider that countries concerns.

Just like Mexico couldn't go full tilt against the U.S interests or Taiwan against China's."

Peoples be forgetting the false premise of invasion here along with the majority of the world wagging their fingers at Putin for being a twat.

Simply because the bigger neighbour doesn't like to what you're doing doesn't mean the bigger neighbour has rights to your land.

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By *al2001Man
over a year ago

kildare

"A sovereign country should not be forced to declare itself neutral... however Putin has to be given a way out

Very naive view, a smaller neighbor of a bigger country especially a nuclear power has to consider that countries concerns.

Just like Mexico couldn't go full tilt against the U.S interests or Taiwan against China's."

What the yanks done in the 60s does not determine how we act here in europe

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By *andy 1Couple
over a year ago

northeast

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

Ukraine should have the right to choose its own destiny.

I don't get you? The majority of the electorate was happy with the result?

A democratically elected leader was ousted

In theory yes every country should have the right to do whatever it wants but that's not how the works works.

Do you think the USA would defend Mexico's right to militarily align itself with China?

They'd be pouring over the border with tanks and weapons in no time

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A sovereign country should not be forced to declare itself neutral... however Putin has to be given a way out

Very naive view, a smaller neighbor of a bigger country especially a nuclear power has to consider that countries concerns.

Just like Mexico couldn't go full tilt against the U.S interests or Taiwan against China's.

Peoples be forgetting the false premise of invasion here along with the majority of the world wagging their fingers at Putin for being a twat.

Simply because the bigger neighbour doesn't like to what you're doing doesn't mean the bigger neighbour has rights to your land."

Never said it did, but that's geopolitics for you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A sovereign country should not be forced to declare itself neutral... however Putin has to be given a way out

Very naive view, a smaller neighbor of a bigger country especially a nuclear power has to consider that countries concerns.

Just like Mexico couldn't go full tilt against the U.S interests or Taiwan against China's.

What the yanks done in the 60s does not determine how we act here in europe"

It doesn't but it sets the example of template behaviour. Also wasn't talking about the Cuban missile crisis, if any country next to US or China even today the result would be the same.

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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago

milton keynes

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

The people of Ukraine ousted that leader in a revolution because of his close ties to putin.

I think if you do some digging you'll find that he was ousted with support from the West.

Democracy doesn't just work when we have someone who likes us in power.

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014 was exactly that,a revolution by the Ukrainian people to ousted a corrupt,putin backed leader.

I'm sure the West helped the Ukrainians wherever they could,as they should.

It was a just cause.

So you're saying that it's okay if the West helped to topple a democratically elected leader?

In fact they do it all the time, particularly the US.

Kinda defeats the whole point of democracy and elections then doesn't it

The people of Ukraine ousted their leader,same as who voted him in.

And for very good reason,the people wanted to be closer to eu and their corrupt thieving putin backed leader didn't.

When they protested,as is their right,he ordered them to be shot.

Then he was ousted.

Sounds just to me.

I hope we did help the Ukrainians

So democracy but just when it suits us. That's a great deal

What are you talking about?

The Ukraine revolution was democracy at work,a revolution by the people

I can't understand what you are saying

You're saying that a revolution to overthrown a democratically elected government is "democracy in action"?

Is that really what you are trying to say?

I think you better go read up on that revolution

The same people who elected him ousted him when he moved towards tyranny like his backer putin and started murdering them

I still cant believe that you think ousting a democratically elected leader not by popular ballot but by revolution is democracy in action

Democracy is voting people in and out not voting them in and throwing them out."

What do they do if the democratically elected person turns out to be a tyrant. Would you have faith in the future elections they hold. Would you have faith they will actually hold anymore elections. To me the people know what Putin is like and how Russia is run and did not want that for themselves so toppled him.

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol

Someone said you cannot vote someone in and then throw him out.

How’s that fin going to work in Russia then ? Do you see people being able to vote Putin out ?

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean? "

Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych you mean? One of the most corrupt man to ever walk on this planet?

Fleeing to Russia with $100 billion in stolen government loans. The paper work was so vast they couldn't burn it quick enough. Even his house is called 'The Museum of Corruption".

https://youtu.be/wXMAkya7N3I

There was nothing democratic about the 2014 election and the misleading of the population that he would sign agreements with Europe and the reason they voted for him.

He deceived them.

I'd suggest watching the Netflix film below before making statements about democracy and fairness again.

Anyone else not seen it, should as this sick man is who Putin will try to reinstall as President.

Winter on Fire:

https://youtu.be/yzNxLzFfR5w

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

See the whole Ukraine Nato thing is a red herring… its been in their constitution as an object since 2015, and they were nowhere near being eligible to join anyway!!

So why now? … the Russians used the same playbook to grab bits of Georgia! And to grab crimea!

If anything what putin has done is possibly persuade Finland and Sweden to join… and they would be eligible straight away!

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

PUTIN has warned Finland it could face "military and political consequences" if the country was to join NATO.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The same right Ukraine had when it's democratically elected leader was ousted with help from the West in 2014 you mean?

Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych you mean? One of the most corrupt man to ever walk on this planet?

Fleeing to Russia with $100 billion in stolen government loans. The paper work was so vast they couldn't burn it quick enough. Even his house is called 'The Museum of Corruption".

https://youtu.be/wXMAkya7N3I

There was nothing democratic about the 2014 election and the misleading of the population that he would sign agreements with Europe and the reason they voted for him.

He deceived them.

I'd suggest watching the Netflix film below before making statements about democracy and fairness again.

Anyone else not seen it, should as this sick man is who Putin will try to reinstall as President.

Winter on Fire:

https://youtu.be/yzNxLzFfR5w

My whole point is that from Russia's point of view the West was involved (how much is up for debate) in getting rid of a democratically elected pro Russian leader and installing a non democratically elected pro Western leader.

The key words here are "from Russia's point of view". If you don't understand (or want to try to understand) their perspective then you'll fail to grasp the bigger picture

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"See the whole Ukraine Nato thing is a red herring… its been in their constitution as an object since 2015, and they were nowhere near being eligible to join anyway!!

So why now? … the Russians used the same playbook to grab bits of Georgia! And to grab crimea!

If anything what putin has done is possibly persuade Finland and Sweden to join… and they would be eligible straight away! "

Its only a red herring if you believe what the Western Media telling you. It was 2019 not 2015.

On 21 February 2019, the Constitution of Ukraine was amended, the norms on the strategic course of Ukraine for membership in the European Union and NATO are enshrined in the preamble of the Basic Law, three articles and transitional provisions.

Do you really think that the expansion of NATO has nothing to do with this war?

NATO is a military alliance. They are not a peacekeeping force. It might appear that way to us in the West but the Chinese and Russians have quite a different view of NATO

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol

"PUTIN has warned Finland it could face "military and political consequences" if the country was to join NATO."

What’s the quickest way to get someone to do something?

Tell them they cannot or else

Does he really think that he can dictate to another country what they can or cannot do ?

He’s just a like a bully in the school playground saying tuck money or else

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"See the whole Ukraine Nato thing is a red herring… its been in their constitution as an object since 2015, and they were nowhere near being eligible to join anyway!!

So why now? … the Russians used the same playbook to grab bits of Georgia! And to grab crimea!

If anything what putin has done is possibly persuade Finland and Sweden to join… and they would be eligible straight away!

Its only a red herring if you believe what the Western Media telling you. It was 2019 not 2015.

Do you really think that the expansion of NATO has nothing to do with this war?

NATO is a military alliance. They are not a peacekeeping force. It might appear that way to us in the West but the Chinese and Russians have quite a different view of NATO "

And one of the red lines for a country joining NATO is that there is no dispute over a potential counties territorial borders! So whilst you have the “Russian backed separatists republics” in the east that itself stops a Ukrainian application being acceptable

So… again… what changed for Russia to do it now?

China are basically seeing what happens before making a decision on what they will do with Taiwan, because you know exactly the same types of sanctions would be levied

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