FabSwingers.com forum: Prepping Ideas.. energy disruption

By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Now that it's finally hitting home that we are going be and are being affected by Ukraine, mainly in the supply of energy. I'll share some ideas.

I've been prepping for years for storms and outages and originally to prevent the pain of 10 days without power due to a storm as we've seen the last few months.

Here's some suggestions and what my plans are and happy to share if it helps someone, although some will take the piss, I'll be the one laughing one day...

Step 1: LPG Ready

Get make and model of your boiler. Find LPG Conversion kit. Mine was £15 and in a bag next to the boiler.

Today, I have ordered 5x 47kg LPG gas bottles to put down side of house at £120 each including deposit.

Buy gas Auto changeover valve like you see on the back of static caravans and enough 22mm copper pipe to reach from bottles to intercept mains gas supply.

Step 2: Battery Storage

By having Solar and Battery storage I already have facility that during mains outage, I can go into the garage and throw a Transfer Switch which will disconnect the Grid and connect the house to a permanent live 230v 3.7kw supply from the Solar Inverter.

If you have Solar, but no batteries now is the time to get them as 1) you'll save a fortune on your electricity bill and 2) used carefully and topped up by the Sun, batteries will keep your lights on, fridge running and boiler powered up.

If you don't have Solar, you can still have Battery backup, install batteries and keep them Grid charged (ideally over night at EV rates if you have an EV) otherwise full price. This means you still have power in the event of a power failure. Later on, add Solar and use Solar Battery to save a fortune on your electricity bills and also get the benefit of back up power.

From experience, 10kw Lithium Ion is minimum size to get you through, 5kw if you have Solar.

Step 3: Portable Stoves

In order to preserve power while on batteries, I have portable induction hob used for camping as well as gas camp stoves. I'd set these up in the kitchen.

Step 4: Generator

If batteries are getting low, I have a 3kw Inverter Generator with petrol ready. I go into the garage and throw a second transfer switch which disconnects the Battery Inverter and connects to a socket outside the house. As both transfer switches are thrown, power is taken from the generator through the first, through the second and into the Consumer Unit while still isolated from the Grid.

If running a house on generator the generator needs modification to ensure RCD breakers still protect circuits and MUST be Inverter to not damage electrical items.

If it looks like gas supplies are being affected, I have a gas engineer ready to fit the LPG Conversion kit and disconnect the mains gas and connect the LPG bottles. I've already installed pipes on outside wall ready.

Once mains gas has been disconnected, I am staying LPG as I am installing Solar Hot Water this Spring and boiler heated water will be almost Zero for 10 months of the year so no longer paying Standing Charges.

Step 5: Power Cut prep

Having lived through the 70s blackouts at 5 and remember a lot of it. Have torches charged, USB power banks available and charged, radio and mobile data. Think of everything you'd take for a weekend camping.

Step 6: Car fuel

Keep 2x Jerry cans of fuel in the garage in case fuel panic buying starts and you need to travel. I've got 150 litres in a boats fuel tank that has been treated to stop it going stale and can pump into cans or the car.

Power outage will likely first be brown out, if not already got, install SPD on the mains supply to prevent surge damage to items in your property. If lights dim, switch off all appliances with electronics in them TVs - Microwave - Boiler etc as these can be damaged.

I don't need, but as a suggestion for heat without converting your boiler, have portable gas heater(s) available. They give a lot of heat and won't affect batteries or if you don't have them.

Sounds like paranoia but this started for me 6 years ago to prep for prolonged power outage after a storm but now includes gas supply into the scenario..

Couple of last minutes:

Batteries- preferable rechargeable

P3 Masks - Chernobyl is a worry as is other nuclear sites and I lived through that one.

BOG ROLLS - We have to have the bog rolls.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

I'm happy to share any advice - help you source/spec batteries, inverters, solar panels, Generators etc..

Drop me a line..

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By *arakiss12TV/TS
over a year ago

Bedford

I've got a barbaque, lot of wood fallen off nearby trees in the garden, potential for river power nearby.

Oh and a 9 volt battery in a draw.

Lookin into solar and wind power.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Get another battery.. 1 isnt enough

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

Excellent and very helpful post, thank you.

Solar is a consideration.

I was mulling a thought the other day that went something along the lines of the more on-grid electrical prices increase, it would make sense that a solar panel investment would pay for itself sooner, if that makes sense ?

A bit of googling seems to throw up LG panels as being a trusted and reliable brand. But I was shocked to see the solar to electrical conversion rate for most panels somewhere around to 20-22% rate. That does not sound very good to me. I thought these things would be super-duper much higher, like 100% or close to it, with our levels of technology. So I'm already feeling a bit deflated about the whole idea, especially since I read the first solar panel came out in 1954. 68 years and we've only got to 20-22% ? Whoopee-doo.

I am thinking of ripping out the gas oven though for electric instead as I think gas is going to be hard to come by soon (or too expensive).

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Hi there..

Glad you found us interesting. I'll try to answer the bulk of your comments here, feel free to message for specific info.

Firstly, all currently available Solar PV have conversion efficiency of 22%, Silicone with the best R&D will never exceed 30%. However, in your favour is surface area of a roof that's doing nothing else. One other benefit of the south facing roof being covered, is that upstairs is cooler in summer as tiles are shaded.

I have 2x sets of panels, the original 1m x 2m on the main roof deliver 385 watts each and have 9x = 3.5kw.

I wanted more power, so built myself a garden room with another 6x 250watts = 1.5kw on that roof, in a few weeks the extension is getting 7x 330watts = 2.3kw but as not yet fitted, I'll only discuss what's currently fitted below.

As it stands, it cost £4500.

A standard Solar installation starts at 3kw which, over a day can add up to a good amount of power. It's enough to run a washer, dishwasher and other items for free on a sunny day and the best way, to charge batteries. A 3kw system with batteries potentially could save you £1000+ per year.

My kits paid for itself, buy carefully of eBay and I've never had an issue. Don't fall into the 'best' panels trap. There are a lot of decent brands, just so long as they carry 25yr warranty.

You can pay an a company to provide the full system, around £5k for panels, £2.5k for batteries. The other way is to buy your own panels for £2.5k, batteries £2.1k then have a roofer install panels, either do the electrical yourself if competent as I did or pay and electrician to sign it off.

In regards to the oven, currently I pay grid power to run mine as don't want 3kw load at the 'wrong' time of day hitting the lead acid batteries I currently have. I buy in 50kw per month over summer which is cooker power at £10. But each summer month I generate, use and store 500kw - £100's worth. Currently batteries provide a constant 600watt max, anything more comes from the Grid at night.

In Spring/ Autumn its run through Air Conditioners as heaters, in Summer as cooling all for free.

Because gas was 'cheap', I never bothered with Hot Water, this year thats changing. There are 2x 300 litre tanks going in the garage and a cheap £1500 air to water heat pump to 'bulk' heat into them. It is more efficient than immersion heater as for every kw used in a heat pump, you get 4kw heat energy. So heat pump to raise to 60 degrees and immersion to pull up to 90 degrees if a week of good sun days occurs. Gas is going up from £350 per year to £800, so no longer ignoring it.

Hot water will pass to the boiler which will only switch on if supply water is below 55 degrees, otherwise allow Solar heated water direct to taps.

My system is designed to charge batteries, run heavy loads such as washer/dryer 11am until 3pm then run on batteries over night. It's done this for the last 5 years.

Because of current situation, I am taking battery capacity to 30kw then 40kw to allow days if needed without grid power, with part or full recharge the day after, 2x 5kw inverters and lithium ion batteries means the cooker will also run off battery saving that £10 per month.

Then, I have generator should sun not shine for 5 days in winter.

The key with Solar, especially if out during the day is batteries and hot water heater diversion to grab every single kw you produce. Don't sell any for a silly 4p/kw.

There are places to get cheaper panels inverters, just got to know where to look.

Don't get bogged by brands, output, type of crystal etc.. my first roof giving 3.4kw is 18 square metres.

Sunny day in March up- to 14kw

Cloudy day in March- up to 3kw.

So, just don't run the washer on cloudy days unless desperate.

Sunny day in May- up to 35kw

Cloudy day in May- up to 12kw

6 weeks of the year, they ain't great but batteries can still be charged from Grid for power failure, rationing.

Doing nothing, my house uses 10kwh per day, even if Solar/battery covered 'baseline' at next years 36pkwh, that's £900 saved per year..

As it stands today, this system will generate the equivalent to £1700 at next year's rate.

The upgrades is to provide nearly all electric, reduce gas usage and ride power outages.

Drop me a line if need more info. I've put this here as sure others will read it..

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

[Removed by poster at 11/03/22 03:07:25]

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

I renewed my contract last October for 3 yrs at:

19p/kw Electricity

7p/kw Gas

Prior to that, monthly Direct Debit was £40 per month, based on given figures the new one is £65 per month until October 2024.

After next 2 cap rises, Propane is same price, without the £100 Standing Charges, so mains gas is going the first day of any supply issues. I expect it to drop back to £25 after upgrading and that will mainly Standing Charge for electricity.

Trust me, it is worth it regardless of Martin Lewis who needs a new calculator.

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

Thank you very much for the detailed information. You certainly have a deep understanding of the subject matter and a very comprehensive home system. An awful lot to think about ! Cheers !

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

You're welcome.. if you want to see production graphs, I can email them.

I have learned a lot over last 5 years.. thinking of moving into system design and setting up a business as a service.

The great side effect of installation of renewables such as Solar, your only one step away from being offgrid, which is perfect for situations like we're in today. Mostly, just requires bigger batteries.

So, although in the 'panic' of the upcoming upgrade, whether or not I need to ride power disruption.. it will still ultimately provide free energy and still pay for itself.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

Sounds like moving into system design would be a lucrative move.

I live in the sticks so am surrounded by lots of free wood. I’m going out this weekend for a look at wood burners not great for the environment but having it as a fall back in case of a hard winter and restricted supplies is a choice I have had to make.

In the old part of the house I have a fire place but as I built a further 90% on the side I need to heat that with an alternate source.

In your opinion OP are air sourced or ground source pumps worth it?

I dont fancy solar yet.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

The problem with air sourced is they consume power. This power is either free from Solar or at the cost of electricity you buy in.

The short answer is NO.

If it was part of a Hybrid system them there is justification.

Air Source heat, whether for heating water, or an Air Conditioner are based on COP. This is the ratio of heat given compared to the power it consumes and the outside temperature.

When outside temperature is below 6 degrees, the efficiency drops from around 4.5 to 1 or less. Annually, there is a saving but at the time when you need the heat the most, it can be cheaper to just run a fan heaters - defeating the object.

As water produced is cooler, radiators need changing to 150-200% larger in order to heat the air in the room. Starting price is around £15k for a full system.

Rather than install Air to Water to hear a home, it is far more efficient, even at lower outside temperatures to use Air to Air as heat is put directly into the room.

Personally, for bang for buck, Solar/battery is the best option as it has an immediate effect on your energy import.

Excess Solar can be used to heat a water tank as can the log burner. Once you have 'free' electricity, you can then consider a Heat Pump for use in Spring Summer Autumn. Winter is the issue, low sun power, cold air outside means it will be working hard.

My chosen option, use gas/available Solar over winter then aim to pay little or nothing over the other three seasons. Soon, I have enough excess to drop gas for heating and continue with the Air Con units. This is why I want bigger batteries as currently, I have to use Solar as its available, I would prefer to store and use it when needed during the evening.

There will be a tank that preheat cold water before it hits the boiler, in Spring till Autumn, this should have enough heat gain for the boiler not to switch on. You could preheat the water using back burner over winter.

I will be installing a cheap heat pump to use Spring until Autumn only because if warm enough outside, for every kw energy I feed it, the tank receives 4kw so cut the time and conserves Solar to give the batteries a chance to charge.

To heat a house, the energy demand is massive, hence best to aim to cut the bulk the rest of the year by making and storing your own power and hot water. Use as much as you can on sunny winter days but have some reliable source to give heat in Winter such as log burner/boiler or both.

I expect 85% reduction in annual, leaving 15% to buy in over Winter. I am thinking of making a wood gas burner / rocket stove to put in garden to preheat tanks in winter as a project.

In respect to the government, rip out the boiler and fitted an heat pump. Without gas fallback and power is off, how do you heat the house? You saw this during the storms over winter where people without power were freezing.

I would have put a Generator on and fired up the boiler for a couple of hours.

Hope this helps..

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

[Removed by poster at 11/03/22 10:51:36]

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Should have mentioned the area you want heat, look at a cheap Air Conditioner on eBay. Some good deals from Italy even after tax. I just got a 12,000 BTU (3.5kw) delivered for £325.

I didn't understand the people in the North East and Cumbria over the storms.

They were due compensation, so why were they on TV complaining they were freezing to death when there were options?

1) £350 for a Generator and have a transfer switch £35 installed. That could have put the heating, fridge and lights on.

2) buy a gas heater and rent a Calor bottle. £90

3) if the property had Solar panels, not buy a battery pack and invert kit for £2500 and carry on using it to store power from the sun long term.

Most got over £1500 in compensation. The more this country relies on renewables, the more WE need to do at home to guarantee the lights stay on.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

I get a beast of a North Easterly Wind whipping across the fields against the side of my house.

What’s the verdict on a small wind turbine?

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

No idea..

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Seen as people like to mess about in the forums and find it hilarious to waste peoples time who are trying to help others facing dire situations.

There is enough information in this thread to help those considering renewable energy. However, there will be no further input on my behalf.

I'm busy helping others not on here..

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

"Seen as people like to mess about in the forums and find it hilarious to waste peoples time who are trying to help others facing dire situations.

There is enough information in this thread to help those considering renewable energy. However, there will be no further input on my behalf.

I'm busy helping others not on here.."

Has somebody been dicking around?

Thanks for your reply to my post mate. I’m considering a couple of cans of LPG for the winter I wasn’t aware until you put it on here that you could do that if you had mains supply.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have solid fuel heating hot water and can use to cook. I have camping gear, spring water near by and enough candles to last a long time. Plus a pantry with a lot of dry /canned goods.

Ps. My default is bulk buying as I live rurally, I'm not panic buying.

I'm thinking of getting a portable solar charger just for phone and some sort of fire striker if the lighters and matches run out.

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By *V-AliceTV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

"Now that it's finally hitting home that we are going be and are being affected by Ukraine, mainly in the supply of energy. I'll share some ideas.

I've been prepping for years for storms and outages and originally to prevent the pain of 10 days without power due to a storm as we've seen the last few months.

Here's some suggestions and what my plans are and happy to share if it helps someone, although some will take the piss, I'll be the one laughing one day...

Step 1: LPG Ready

Get make and model of your boiler. Find LPG Conversion kit. Mine was £15 and in a bag next to the boiler.

Today, I have ordered 5x 47kg LPG gas bottles to put down side of house at £120 each including deposit.

Buy gas Auto changeover valve like you see on the back of static caravans and enough 22mm copper pipe to reach from bottles to intercept mains gas supply.

Step 2: Battery Storage

From experience, 10kw Lithium Ion is minimum size to get you through, 5kw if you have Solar.

Step 3: Portable Stoves

In order to preserve power while on batteries, I have portable induction hob used for camping as well as gas camp stoves. I'd set these up in the kitchen.

Step 4: Generator

If running a house on generator the generator needs modification to ensure RCD breakers still protect circuits and MUST be Inverter to not damage electrical items.

Step 5: Power Cut prep

Step 6: Car fuel

I don't need, but as a suggestion for heat without converting your boiler, have portable gas heater(s) available. They give a lot of heat and won't affect batteries or if you don't have them.

Sounds like paranoia but this started for me 6 years ago to prep for prolonged power outage after a storm but now includes gas supply into the scenario..

Couple of last minutes:

Batteries- preferable rechargeable

P3 Masks - Chernobyl is a worry as is other nuclear sites and I lived through that one.

BOG ROLLS - We have to have the bog rolls."

Good advice. I'm glad you don't live in the USA, or you'd have had to be armed, too.

Btw, I don't think you're paranoid - but I do hope it doesn't get as bad as you fear it will ...

because if it does, the army will be out on the streets and it'll make the Covid lockdowns look like a picnic.

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By *oldilox and the BearCouple
over a year ago

Scottish Borders

following this thread.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

Just been out and got the Wood Burner install booked in. They won’t be able to install until May as everybody else has the same idea.

Now to look at whether a wind turbine thing would work.

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

just find someone who has prepped, move in on their turf and push them out ... simple

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Someone mentioned not the USA..

I enjoy heading out at weekends, breaking clay birds. Have a licence and lock box for my equipment, so no knockin here.

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By *xyBs2022Couple
over a year ago

Lancs

Great post yet again mate….

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Cheers..

I just hope Boris is reading as pushing us into Heat Pumps without a 'free' source of Energy to run them, defeats the object of lower UK gas consumption. It just moves demand from gas to electricity.

If they get this wrong in the next 3-12months then we'll all suffer.

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By *ighty_tightyMan
over a year ago

Norfolk/Suffolk

"Cheers..

I just hope Boris is reading as pushing us into Heat Pumps without a 'free' source of Energy to run them, defeats the object of lower UK gas consumption. It just moves demand from gas to electricity.

If they get this wrong in the next 3-12months then we'll all suffer."

Heat source pumps aren't a magic bullet either.

Older houses have central heating systems designed to run on older boilers that hit 80 degrees to the radiators. New condensing boilers hit around 60 to the rads. Heat pumps even lower. To make these older houses/systems work you need the boiler running for longer, imagine the amount of time it will take with even lower temp outputs.

So yeah, have an air source heat pump. Be forced into replacement more efficient rads and in a worst case scenario a complete replumb as you have an ancient single pipe system or a newer microbore one.

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By *xyBs2022Couple
over a year ago

Lancs

I saw an eco build that had all underfloor heat pump heating, only downstairs but heat permeated up as fairly open plan and small property, solar panels on roof supplied enough power to operate pumps and almost enough to supply home power a lot of the time, I think it maxed out at 17 degrees which is great for us as we’re outdoors type but if u come in the house and it’s 2 degrees outside even 10 degrees feel good lol

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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago

milton keynes

"Cheers..

I just hope Boris is reading as pushing us into Heat Pumps without a 'free' source of Energy to run them, defeats the object of lower UK gas consumption. It just moves demand from gas to electricity.

If they get this wrong in the next 3-12months then we'll all suffer."

I have just been reading that with these air heat source pumps you get more heat out than energy put in. They say for every 1kw of electric going in they produce 3 - 4 kw of heat. Is this really true or am I just reading a cleverly written add.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

It depends, it's true that you get more out than out in, but there is a caveat.

As the name suggests, they Pump Heat from place to another using clever physics.

I have air conditioning I use as heaters to use excess Solar power. They work absolutely brilliant on days where outside temperature is above 6 degrees. Below this, the heat output drops off significantly the lower the outdoor temperature.

They are rated in COP, annual COP. Which is a ratio of heat given for energy put in and it varies depending on outside temperature.

The figures stated are usually annualy, in other words in summer when warm outside the quickly and easily move heat as there is plenty warmer air surrounding them. They can give up to 6kw equivalent heat for every 1kw you put on.

In winter, the ambient temperature drops below 6 degrees, the COP falls, say to 2kw heat for every kw put in. As temperature falls to minus 6, it is almost 1 to 1 where then an 'Auxiliary Heater' a heater built in switches on. This energy is then injected into the system in order to heat. So, Auxiliary Heater at 3kw, plus the mechanical energy combined, its actually cheaper to switch on a 3kw immersion heater.

Here's the issue, you want the most heat during winter when outside air is cold, the system becomes inefficient and your house cannot gain the heat required which is why there us emphasis on insulation on houses with Heat Pumps.

Therefore, my scenario, a cheap £1500 heat pump to use Spring until Autumn for Hot Water only and on warmer winter days, with fallback to Gas when it's too cold. Rather than try to heat water to pump round radiators at reduced temp, have Air to Air Heat Pumps (air conditioning) directly heats the air in the room and still works to a fashion down to freezing.

Beyond that, the boiler fires up.

This is why government ripping out gas boilers is false economy and putting people at risk in cold weather and why I refuse to allow it. They are aiming to install over a million Heat Pumps, what happens to Grid demand on very cold days when efficiency is 50% of the energy put in and Auxiliary Heaters switch on - Overload.

Better option, hybrid, reduce Gas demand for Hot Water and Electricity generation Spring until Autumn, storing gas to cover winter when boilers come on.

Heat Pumps are good by no means the answer..

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

"I saw an eco build that had all underfloor heat pump heating, only downstairs but heat permeated up as fairly open plan and small property, solar panels on roof supplied enough power to operate pumps and almost enough to supply home power a lot of the time, I think it maxed out at 17 degrees which is great for us as we’re outdoors type but if u come in the house and it’s 2 degrees outside even 10 degrees feel good lol"

Underfloor heating is ideal for heat pumps but like mine, most houses built after the 70s have a solid concrete floor.

The floor option is good if it's possible as it only needs 'low geade' heat - below 35. When it's not possible the only other options available is to upgrade radiators or fit ducted heating. Problem with radiators is they need to be warm enough to convect.

Friend of mine just had extension built, they dug 3'6" feet down, layer of concrete, 24" thick layer of insulation then Underfloor heating pipes, covered in another 4" concrete. Hard and expensive to do on an existing build.

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By *xyBs2022Couple
over a year ago

Lancs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Now that it's finally hitting home that we are going be and are being affected by Ukraine, mainly in the supply of energy. I'll share some ideas.

I've been prepping for years for storms and outages and originally to prevent the pain of 10 days without power due to a storm as we've seen the last few months.

Here's some suggestions and what my plans are and happy to share if it helps someone, although some will take the piss, I'll be the one laughing one day...

Step 1: LPG Ready

Get make and model of your boiler. Find LPG Conversion kit. Mine was £15 and in a bag next to the boiler.

Today, I have ordered 5x 47kg LPG gas bottles to put down side of house at £120 each including deposit.

Buy gas Auto changeover valve like you see on the back of static caravans and enough 22mm copper pipe to reach from bottles to intercept mains gas supply.

Step 2: Battery Storage

From experience, 10kw Lithium Ion is minimum size to get you through, 5kw if you have Solar.

Step 3: Portable Stoves

In order to preserve power while on batteries, I have portable induction hob used for camping as well as gas camp stoves. I'd set these up in the kitchen.

Step 4: Generator

If running a house on generator the generator needs modification to ensure RCD breakers still protect circuits and MUST be Inverter to not damage electrical items.

Step 5: Power Cut prep

Step 6: Car fuel

I don't need, but as a suggestion for heat without converting your boiler, have portable gas heater(s) available. They give a lot of heat and won't affect batteries or if you don't have them.

Sounds like paranoia but this started for me 6 years ago to prep for prolonged power outage after a storm but now includes gas supply into the scenario..

Couple of last minutes:

Batteries- preferable rechargeable

P3 Masks - Chernobyl is a worry as is other nuclear sites and I lived through that one.

BOG ROLLS - We have to have the bog rolls."

Excellent advice - thank you for making the effort to share.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

It's working for me, just hope it triggers others to do similar to support themselves.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm saving £2 to £3 per day, doesn't sound much but £60 to £80 per month, that's based on March production peaking 15kw/day. In 4 weeks that will go up as sun is higher to 25-30kw/day.

Better payback than Bank interest rates.

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By *uddy laneMan
over a year ago

dudley

"It's working for me, just hope it triggers others to do similar to support themselves.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm saving £2 to £3 per day, doesn't sound much but £60 to £80 per month, that's based on March production peaking 15kw/day. In 4 weeks that will go up as sun is higher to 25-30kw/day.

Better payback than Bank interest rates."

I'm getting 10% interest of crypto coins, which should offset the cost of inflation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's working for me, just hope it triggers others to do similar to support themselves.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm saving £2 to £3 per day, doesn't sound much but £60 to £80 per month, that's based on March production peaking 15kw/day. In 4 weeks that will go up as sun is higher to 25-30kw/day.

Better payback than Bank interest rates."

I have a meeting with an installer on Thursday to look at putting in a hybrid system on my garage roof (12m x 6m and south facing so almost ideal).

He is part of our extended Family and lives off grid himself so is experienced enough to advise.

We already have air-air heating (and it reverses to cool in the summer) and the house is well insulated. We also live in the country so no neighbours or shadows over the garage.

It will be an expensive install but should payback over 10 years at current prices and with rising prices, in even less time.

More importantly, it would allow me to live off grid should that become necessary.

Your post spurred me to move with this for which I am grateful.

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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago

milton keynes

"It depends, it's true that you get more out than out in, but there is a caveat.

As the name suggests, they Pump Heat from place to another using clever physics.

They are rated in COP, annual COP. Which is a ratio of heat given for energy put in and it varies depending on outside temperature.

Beyond that, the boiler fires up.

Better option, hybrid, reduce Gas demand for Hot Water and Electricity generation Spring until Autumn, storing gas to cover winter when boilers come on.

Heat Pumps are good by no means the answer..

thanks. Great information, I'm following with interest

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Great news Diver..

From experience, buy the biggest output panels you can justify the cost of.. Believe me, when you're getting it free, it's never enough. Who'd have thought Air Conditioners can actually save the planet.

Battery, they claim 5kw, this is bare minimum. Try and go for 7.5 or 10kw. This allows on Cloudy days, all those bursts of sunshine combining into battery charge to be 'banked', then run the washer etc late afternoon and it won't cost a bean. You can run those Air to Air's at night for free heating.

It sure changes behaviour to power in that you get 'fined' for bad planning by the import meter increasing - you quickly learn.

You'll soon be in the 3 loads of washing on sunny days club!!

Fun Fact: Boil kettle for four Thermos flasks while sunny, then pour water back into kettle to re-boil to make brews or for cooking can save £35 a year.

Drop me line if have any questions..

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Update on Part 1: LPG Ready

Picked up a bargain today, 2yr old High Efficiency Condensing boiler with service history and removed carefully by boiler installer for a whopping £7 on an infamous bidding site.

Rather than convert the original, this is instead going to be installed in the garage near where Solar Hot water is produced.

Original boiler remaining operational on CH4, the one picked up today will run LPG with valves to allow quick swap over.

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By *alking HeadMan
over a year ago

Bolton

Buy a load of Rubles and burn them?

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

[Removed by poster at 15/03/22 01:39:03]

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

I would, but...

I'd need a 40tonne truck to carry a fiver's worth!!

I prefer to burn toilet paper, I have far more expensive taste..

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Last 3x days electricity import has been ZERO day and night.

Rest of the week will be same. House heated via 2x Air Con units and 3x oil heaters, no gas.

Roll on summer..

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

Talking of energy, I realise the first thing I need to do is actually understand my existing consumption in more details.

I've spent a few hours surfing the web looking at monitoring devices, and there are so many types I don't even know where to begin.

So I though, turn it on its head. What am I looking for ? Then find a system around that.

My expectation is as follows.

1. Login to a webpage - perhaps derived from a local webserver built in to the device

2. See an "Overview" of realtime usage, Kwh being consumed, current cost.

3. On the overview page, it shows zones

4. Click "Study" for example, and it opens up to all the devices in my study.

5. I can then see what the fan is consuming, the TV, the PC, the coffee machine, and about 26 other electrical devices in the study.

Basically, every electrical device, in the house, in real-time.

Extensive reporting, costs over time, usage history (down to device level).

You can understand why the £10 basic meters are not going to meet my needs here.

If said system can integrate seamlessly with future Solar and existing Gas, that is a major bonus.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Think might be a little bit overkill. But if that's what you want.

TBH, the £10 plug in meter is all you need. It tell you all you need to know. Wired in appliances, you can either Google the manual and get info that way or clamp a meter on mains supply and work out how many amps it draws.

Go around your house, make a list (spreadsheet is perfect) of every item every room.

Make a note:

It is permanently used such as an alarm clock, microwave, digi box?

Is it left on stand by?

Can it number switched off when not used?

Then get the £10 meter and insert into socket, plug item in. Measure stand-by and switched on power demand.

In a column on spreadsheet, how many hours per day/week used and how long it's on stand by. Set up calculation on spreadsheet to work out daily consumption.

Standby power x hours = kwh

Usage power x hours = kwh

Add the two together = kwh

This will help identify what you've got plugged in that could be switched off when not used.

I have a Watts meter near TV that has a big LED screen. Currently watching TV with lights on and drawing 5 watts from Grid.

That meter is all I need to know if something is on that shouldn't. No need for complicated websites.

Another way to calculate usage, take a meter reading over a set period or take one now and a previous one and divide the difference over the days that's passed. I use around 10kw per day.

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

"Think might be a little bit overkill. But if that's what you want.

Go around your house, make a list (spreadsheet is perfect) of every item every room.

Make a note:

It is permanently used such as an alarm clock, microwave, digi box?

Is it left on stand by?

Can it number switched off when not used?

Then get the £10 meter and insert into socket, plug item in. Measure stand-by and switched on power demand.

In a column on spreadsheet, how many hours per day/week used and how long it's on stand by. Set up calculation on spreadsheet to work out daily consumption.

Standby power x hours = kwh

Usage power x hours = kwh

Add the two together = kwh

This will help identify what you've got plugged in that could be switched off when not used.

I have a Watts meter near TV that has a big LED screen. Currently watching TV with lights on and drawing 5 watts from Grid.

That meter is all I need to know if something is on that shouldn't. No need for complicated websites.

Another way to calculate usage, take a meter reading over a set period or take one now and a previous one and divide the difference over the days that's passed. I use around 10kw per day.

Thank you. I will admit whilst it does make sense and I know the little Kill-A-Watt meter I already have would do the job, I just don't have the motivation, inclination or time to do that. A couple of hours going round the house is a couple of hours not spent relaxing playing World of Warcraft, or running an online game for 4 other friends, or one of a dozen other hobbies I have that are all very time-intensive.

Hence me looking for a solution I can throw money at to get the result I desire.

You could call me lazy, after all I bought a Karcher to clean my car. Used it once and thought that's 30 mins I've wasted. 30 mins I don't have. And I soaked the street, the outside of the house, the bushes, the shed, the fence.

Some folks are not suited to manual work and I know and accept my limitations (and patience)

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Wilko are selling 2x TCP Smart Sockets for £15, £10 discounted online.

My house is full of them as well as cheapo RF sockets via a Broadlink adapter.

Alexa, Siri or Google is your automated friend.

Put all appliances and plug strips on one socket adapter and either set routines or timers.

My favourite is "Alexa, night night". Hear a house full of clicks as everything is going off for the night, fill kettle and click button. Then she puts landing and bedroom light on and if it's less than 12 degrees outside, my bed Heater on for 2 hours..

Boiler is also automated on the morning routing, "Alexa, wake up", switches the heating on if below 12 putside, lights on if before sunrise and prefilled kettle on 10 minutes later to get down to a ready boiled kettle.

Alexa even switches the garden lights on 40 mins after sunset, 45 mins prior.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Alexa even sets the Radiator TRVs depending on the time of day to select which rooms get heated.

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

avoid so called smart devices and you will notice a massive saving in your energy bills

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

I've fully embraced and that save me a fortune..

Only selected radiators get hot, only sockets I want on are on..

Best thing since sliced bread!!

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

i spent nothing on buying smart devices, I spend nothing on powering them because i don't have any and the heating is controled perfectly. i use far less energy and spend far far less money than any other person who uses smart devices. hope this helps.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Perfect..

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By *lex46TV/TS
over a year ago

Near Wells

My smart meter is easy to read so I read it most days and see how many units I use.

I soon work out what uses the most energy and I absolutely hate wasting electricity etc, I never have anything on standby.

I don't prepare for any disasters or anything though. I've always been a "I'll deal with it if and when it happens" kind of person.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Just seen a great bargain washer.

Brand new - Energy Rating F

Might order it tomorrow if still got them.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Seems there might be a European gas shortage shortly.

If you want to ride power cuts, I'd strongly recommend getting at least 5kwh Lithium battery and Solar Inverter Charger with UPS feature.

You can add Solar panels later to charge battery and run your house for free.

If you have vulnerable family on critical medical equipment at home, you should seriously consider battery backed power for them.

Refrigeration, Oxygen generation, Dialysis machines as examples.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

It's an old thread but it's looking like as predicted in March that Putin is going to, or has already started weaponising global Gas supplies.

Nord Stream1 into Germany is currently offline with the Germans starting to believe it is permanent and currently looking for suppliers of LNG, this will outstrip supply and they'll bid higher, pushing wholesale up even higher.

Russia is already restricting supplies preventing many EU countries from "stocking up" for winter.

Gas explosion in Texas, we won't see US LNG for at least another few weeks, possibly months.

Norway gas employees are threatening strike action on Gas supplies which 39% of our Gas comes from.

At the same time as 100,000's EVs have been sold and government drive to electrifying domestic heating creating higher Grid demand.

It's looking like the perfect storm and should be prepared for as we have never lived in times like this. If Putin manages to starve and freeze European countries including the UK, he'll be gambling on how much pain were willing to take.

Bristow Council are opening "Welcome centres", a place to go to keep warm if you can't afford heating.

Yes, it is summer now but only 18-20 weeks from setting of Autumn and into Winter.

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By *V-AliceTV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

Cancel your direct debit with your energy supplier and only pay for what you actually use.

There's nothing they can do about it. Just wait until you're only a little bit in debt to them - pay the red reminder - and then keep your nose clean.

That way, your money won't be inflating their bank balance for nothing; whilst you need it to buy food.

This is a great advice thread - for people who aren't poor already. But it's not going to help most of us who can't afford to take it up.

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By *V-AliceTV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

"i spent nothing on buying smart devices, I spend nothing on powering them because i don't have any and the heating is controled perfectly. i use far less energy and spend far far less money than any other person who uses smart devices. hope this helps.

Me too - and I'm only hung. LOL

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

"Cancel your direct debit with your energy supplier and only pay for what you actually use.

There's nothing they can do about it. Just wait until you're only a little bit in debt to them - pay the red reminder - and then keep your nose clean.

That way, your money won't be inflating their bank balance for nothing; whilst you need it to buy food.

This is a great advice thread - for people who aren't poor already. But it's not going to help most of us who can't afford to take it up."

During an argument with Scottish Power last month over a Direct Debit increase, the snotty lady told me to cancel the Direct Debit and pay manually or Standing Order. I questioned additional cost by not using Direct Debit and she told me it was no different.

Having asked for this in writing, I ended up speaking to her Supervisor who confirmed my suspicion that it is £10 per fuel/ per month - £240 per year, so be careful if that is your plan.

With regard to your comment on cost of renewables, I agree, it is significant and people need support, no hand out to get them.

I didn't have readily available funds and made considerable sacrifices to afford it. That was when electricity was 4.5p per kilowatt. However, by paying back the equivalent value saved into a savings account, I now have the original investment back. The savings over the next two years will then pay for itself again. In 7yrs, it's paid back itself twice over which is why an additional 3.2kw is going up on the roof.

Since last week in March, have generated 2,000kwh's.

Write to your MP - ask for financial support scheme for Solar/ Battery not Heat Pumps where government 'lend' money upfront and paid back at a lower rate of say 15pkw. Once you have bought enough kws from your own system and paid the government back, it then becomes yours.

I tried to contact the Energy Secretary and my local MP prior to the Windfall event to take extra funds and set up a low cost scheme. As usual, no reply so wrote to Labour Lib Dems to pressure government..

again, no response so given up.

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By *V-AliceTV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

"Cancel your direct debit with your energy supplier and only pay for what you actually use.

There's nothing they can do about it. Just wait until you're only a little bit in debt to them - pay the red reminder - and then keep your nose clean.

That way, your money won't be inflating their bank balance for nothing; whilst you need it to buy food.

This is a great advice thread - for people who aren't poor already. But it's not going to help most of us who can't afford to take it up.

Having asked for this in writing, I ended up speaking to her Supervisor who confirmed my suspicion that it is £10 per fuel/ per month - £240 per year, so be careful if that is your plan.

With regard to your comment on cost of renewables, I agree, it is significant and people need support, no hand out to get them.

Since last week in March, have generated 2,000kwh's.

again, no response so given up."

Fair enough. It's not my plan, btw - I've been doing it for years.

It works for me because it keeps me in control of my money. I need it in my bank account, not theirs.

It does cost me a few quid - a year - but I'd rather have £100 sitting in my bank account when I need it, than sitting in theirs where I can't get to it.

As I've said already, more than once, your advice is all good and ought to be heeded.

I just have to approach it from a different angle, due to my means.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

[Removed by poster at 14/07/22 11:25:04]

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Appreciate the feedback.

Many have no idea of the benefits for some up front pain. It's reaping benefits now and that's not bragging, just we are not talking about 5p per kwh anymore.

A neighbour assumed Solar wasn't worth after listening to Martin Lewis's spew. He currently pays £245 per month rising in October to £402 and although I think April '23 will be higher to £420.

Investing £10k on Solar, Battery and Hot Water with Air Conditioners will save him £4000 per year. 3yr max payback if rates stay as they are. The added bonus is free Air Conditioning in Summer.

As I see the benefits, additional 3.2kw being installed to cover more cloudy days and sunny days, charge a car. £2000 is the cost but petrol, Hot Water and cooking savings will cover it in 2 years.

As he said, even paying Credit Card interest rates, its a no brainer and going ahead.

The last 12 months I've used just 2,900kwh gas, this is mostly Summer Hot Water, 1,800kwh electricity which was cooking and cloudy days as Lead Acid batteries only delivered 600watts max and gave 4kwh overnight.

The bigger inverter and lithium batteries will reduce it to around 400kwh electricity as it delivers 5kw which will run the cooker with no Import and there is 40kw capacity.

As gas was cheap, I procrastinated on changing Hot Water to tanks from a Combi, this has now been done and expect annual gas to be 1,000kwh, hence converting to LPG to remove Standing Charge and avoid disruption if Mains supply becomes an issue.

The £12k I invested over the last 5 years means my Direct Debit is currently £65 per month until May 2024. This would jump to £112 per month once contract ends, hence why upgrades done now as the train is heading down the track.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Now that it's finally hitting home that we are going be and are being affected by Ukraine, mainly in the supply of energy. I'll share some ideas.

I've been prepping for years for storms and outages and originally to prevent the pain of 10 days without power due to a storm as we've seen the last few months.

Here's some suggestions and what my plans are and happy to share if it helps someone, although some will take the piss, I'll be the one laughing one day...

Step 1: LPG Ready

Get make and model of your boiler. Find LPG Conversion kit. Mine was £15 and in a bag next to the boiler.

Today, I have ordered 5x 47kg LPG gas bottles to put down side of house at £120 each including deposit.

Buy gas Auto changeover valve like you see on the back of static caravans and enough 22mm copper pipe to reach from bottles to intercept mains gas supply.

Step 2: Battery Storage

From experience, 10kw Lithium Ion is minimum size to get you through, 5kw if you have Solar.

Step 3: Portable Stoves

In order to preserve power while on batteries, I have portable induction hob used for camping as well as gas camp stoves. I'd set these up in the kitchen.

Step 4: Generator

If running a house on generator the generator needs modification to ensure RCD breakers still protect circuits and MUST be Inverter to not damage electrical items.

Step 5: Power Cut prep

Step 6: Car fuel

I don't need, but as a suggestion for heat without converting your boiler, have portable gas heater(s) available. They give a lot of heat and won't affect batteries or if you don't have them.

Sounds like paranoia but this started for me 6 years ago to prep for prolonged power outage after a storm but now includes gas supply into the scenario..

Couple of last minutes:

Batteries- preferable rechargeable

P3 Masks - Chernobyl is a worry as is other nuclear sites and I lived through that one.

BOG ROLLS - We have to have the bog rolls."

I think your username is ironic.

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By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

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