FabSwingers.com forum: Gas Storage

By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

After years of ripping down gas storage sites, leaving little rainy day storage when wholesale prices are high.

Every town in this country had gas storage facilities from legacy town gas which where later converted to store natural methane gas.

There are no facilities here to compress gas to liquid to be stored in bulk. The times we hear wholesale gas prices are so cheap, suppliers are literally paid to take it.

EU Storage capacity terawatt/hours

Italy: 166

Germany: 147

Netherlands: 77

Poland: 34

Spain: 25

UK: 9

So when gas is abundant and cheap on the wholesale market mainly in summer, there is no where to buy cheap and store for winter.

No wonder we are so exposed to Winter wholesale prices, the number of years we've heard the comments "Energy Security"?

Just like PPE, there is little. So what are the plans if the Gas ships stop coming as they've gone to the highest bidder.

Blackouts and no heating?

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

As I have said elsewhere and have never stopped saying…

‘Can’t help but notice that virtually all of the privatised services have enriched the private providers whilst prices to the public have gone through the roof.

I have never understood why transport, energy and communications were handed over to private entities when they represent the very fabric of a society.’

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Bit like the GSM alert system installed everywhere else to send direct messages from government to every phone within a cell tower range, in an area or nationwide. The government has to ask network providers instead to send texts.

Earthquake, tsunami and other alerts that our muppets decides wasn't necessary which would have been helpful in recent events.

National emergency communication system that was ripped put in the 70s, "if you're grandmother should die whilst in the shelter", "this is the last voice you will ever hear, do not be alarmed" as we'd never need it.

TV transmitter has a fire, area has no TV signal for over a month as there is no requirement for spare parts and redundancy. Winter Hill nearly burned in grass fires a few years ago.

Is that what you mean?

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

It's a nation built by spivs, to hand everything, especially your money and security, to the likes of conservative party donors, to ensure that they have security.

You little people are of no consequence. Tearing the rules up, red tape burning, is to remove the barriers that they dislike. Health and safety, national security etc are illusions that people can easily be hoodwinked over and many seem too readily do.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *jonesMan
over a year ago

Plymouth

"After years of ripping down gas storage sites, leaving little rainy day storage when wholesale prices are high.

Every town in this country had gas storage facilities from legacy town gas which where later converted to store natural methane gas.

There are no facilities here to compress gas to liquid to be stored in bulk. The times we hear wholesale gas prices are so cheap, suppliers are literally paid to take it.

EU Storage capacity terawatt/hours

Italy: 166

Germany: 147

Netherlands: 77

Poland: 34

Spain: 25

UK: 9

So when gas is abundant and cheap on the wholesale market mainly in summer, there is no where to buy cheap and store for winter.

No wonder we are so exposed to Winter wholesale prices, the number of years we've heard the comments "Energy Security"?

Just like PPE, there is little. So what are the plans if the Gas ships stop coming as they've gone to the highest bidder.

Blackouts and no heating?

I agree ..

This is partly due to the ease you can build onshore storage on the continent due to different geology

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

"After years of ripping down gas storage sites, leaving little rainy day storage when wholesale prices are high.

Every town in this country had gas storage facilities from legacy town gas which where later converted to store natural methane gas.

There are no facilities here to compress gas to liquid to be stored in bulk. The times we hear wholesale gas prices are so cheap, suppliers are literally paid to take it.

EU Storage capacity terawatt/hours

Italy: 166

Germany: 147

Netherlands: 77

Poland: 34

Spain: 25

UK: 9

So when gas is abundant and cheap on the wholesale market mainly in summer, there is no where to buy cheap and store for winter.

No wonder we are so exposed to Winter wholesale prices, the number of years we've heard the comments "Energy Security"?

Just like PPE, there is little. So what are the plans if the Gas ships stop coming as they've gone to the highest bidder.

Blackouts and no heating?

I agree ..

This is partly due to the ease you can build onshore storage on the continent due to different geology "

I gather you're meaning underground storage by geology?

There are North Sea fields redundant they could use, as well as the now dismantled gas storage towers in every Town and city.

The ultimate storage is liquefied, during summer compress cheaper gas as it arrives using surplus renewable energy, recover the heat released for industry into Heat Batteries which can then be stoted and driven around in shipping containers as yet another renewable source.

One 40ft container can hold up to 25MW equivalent heat and dropped of at schools or office buildings to use.

When needed, decompress back into the Grid and the cold again recovered into Heat Batteries for industrial cooling.

I am surprised there has yet, NOT been a single mention of fracking and blame for high prices thrown at those that rejected it.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

"As I have said elsewhere and have never stopped saying…

‘Can’t help but notice that virtually all of the privatised services have enriched the private providers whilst prices to the public have gone through the roof.

I have never understood why transport, energy and communications were handed over to private entities when they represent the very fabric of a society.’"

you forgot to mention that the framework in which the privatisations were delivered has lead to the consumer being entirely starved of any choice whatsoever unless it is part of the conservative and unionist parties chumocratic cartel.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is done on purpose. The government get more tax the higher the cost of energy.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"As I have said elsewhere and have never stopped saying…

‘Can’t help but notice that virtually all of the privatised services have enriched the private providers whilst prices to the public have gone through the roof.

I have never understood why transport, energy and communications were handed over to private entities when they represent the very fabric of a society.’"

For any society to not have control of its own essentials is madness, of course the rampant free marketeers will disagree but turning on a tap in any part of this country should not excessively profit foreign states..

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

Did anyone see that report of the undersea interconnect cable from Scotland to Wales where energy companies have just been hit with £150m for being late.

There is a vast amount of wind energy 'trapped' in Scotland as there is no cable to bring it to England via Wales, which would have significantly reduced reliance on gas generation this winter.

£15m has been handed to the Energy Saving Trust to give out as vouchers as the knock, was higher energy prices.

There is also an ongoing project to bring Solar and Wind here in 4x 2500 mile cables, bypassing Europe at cost of £21b, enough for 8 million homes.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I know where we can store some gas, in the PM! I think he has the capacity to store quite a lot!

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"After years of ripping down gas storage sites, leaving little rainy day storage when wholesale prices are high.

Every town in this country had gas storage facilities from legacy town gas which where later converted to store natural methane gas.

There are no facilities here to compress gas to liquid to be stored in bulk. The times we hear wholesale gas prices are so cheap, suppliers are literally paid to take it.

EU Storage capacity terawatt/hours

Italy: 166

Germany: 147

Netherlands: 77

Poland: 34

Spain: 25

UK: 9

So when gas is abundant and cheap on the wholesale market mainly in summer, there is no where to buy cheap and store for winter.

No wonder we are so exposed to Winter wholesale prices, the number of years we've heard the comments "Energy Security"?

Just like PPE, there is little. So what are the plans if the Gas ships stop coming as they've gone to the highest bidder.

Blackouts and no heating?

I might be jumping in on something which I know little about, but I do believe that some of the gas gets pumped into the bedrock of wasted salt mines such as those near to Runcorn.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did anyone see that report of the undersea interconnect cable from Scotland to Wales where energy companies have just been hit with £150m for being late.

There is a vast amount of wind energy 'trapped' in Scotland as there is no cable to bring it to England via Wales, which would have significantly reduced reliance on gas generation this winter.

£15m has been handed to the Energy Saving Trust to give out as vouchers as the knock, was higher energy prices.

There is also an ongoing project to bring Solar and Wind here in 4x 2500 mile cables, bypassing Europe at cost of £21b, enough for 8 million homes."

There are much more than undersea cables. There are undersea oil lines, undersea gas lines also.

Not to mention undersea telecom lines.......

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

There sure is..

Power cable is a different beast. I wonder how much is lost over 2500 miles. DC Voltage will be incredible.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *quirtyndirty!Couple
over a year ago

Nottingham

Its government policy that has landed us in this mess in the first place.

It rushed into a ridiculous net zero target, phasing out coal and nuclear power regardless of the dependability of wind and solar alternatives.

It ran down the North Sea, demonising the few companies still willing to operate there. It closed down gas storage facilities to save money, complacently assuming it could always buy whatever we needed on the global market. And it effectively banned fracking, even though we have plentiful reserves in the UK, and the scare stories about it make the anti-vaxxers look sensible.

And we are paying the price and will do for years

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There sure is..

Power cable is a different beast. I wonder how much is lost over 2500 miles. DC Voltage will be incredible."

I'm no expert on this matter, but as I understand it, there have been many arguments throughout the years between famous inventors about the merits of DC and AC.

Apparently, DC power is less efficient because much of it is "lost" in transit. A bit like my Hermes parcels I guess.

However, DC requires only 1 cable and therefore is more efficient on the hardware side of things.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

"There sure is..

Power cable is a different beast. I wonder how much is lost over 2500 miles. DC Voltage will be incredible.

I'm no expert on this matter, but as I understand it, there have been many arguments throughout the years between famous inventors about the merits of DC and AC.

Apparently, DC power is less efficient because much of it is "lost" in transit. A bit like my Hermes parcels I guess.

However, DC requires only 1 cable and therefore is more efficient on the hardware side of things."

Surprisingly, the long distance underwater cables are very high voltage DC. AC suffers massive impedance and resonance losses so DC, high voltage, low current is used.

Submarine power cables are cables for electrical power running through the sea, below the surface.

For transmission of large amounts of electric power through submarine cables, direct current(DC) is preferred, because DC cables require less reactive power than submarine AC cables. As well, for three phase AC-cables three conductors are necessary, while for DC only 1 or 2 conductors are required.

A DC system may use the ground and seawater as a return path for current. However this cannot be always practiced because of disturbances to magnetic compass systems on vessels crossing the cable and because of ecological effects of electrochemical reactions at the electrodes.

The length of AC cables is restricted by capacitance between the active conductors and the surrounding earth (or water). If the cable were to be made long enough, the reactive power consumed by the cable would take up the entire current carrying capacity of the conductor, so no usable power would be transmitted.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

[Removed by poster at 12/02/22 20:41:42]

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By *rFunBoy OP Man
over a year ago

Longridge

An example of high voltage DC, is later generation Solar PV my system carries 5kw through a 4mm cable as the DC Voltage can be over 650volts.

Original 24-48v systems had very thick and expensive DC cables. Another benefit being the Inverter works less hard dropping DC to AC, than ramping the voltage up. It works harder giving 230v from 48v batteries than Solar as efficiency drops.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There sure is..

Power cable is a different beast. I wonder how much is lost over 2500 miles. DC Voltage will be incredible.

I'm no expert on this matter, but as I understand it, there have been many arguments throughout the years between famous inventors about the merits of DC and AC.

Apparently, DC power is less efficient because much of it is "lost" in transit. A bit like my Hermes parcels I guess.

However, DC requires only 1 cable and therefore is more efficient on the hardware side of things.

Surprisingly, the long distance underwater cables are very high voltage DC. AC suffers massive impedance and resonance losses so DC, high voltage, low current is used.

Submarine power cables are cables for electrical power running through the sea, below the surface.

I'm no professional in these AC/DC matters, but thankyou for the reply. Food for thought. If Nikolai Tesla was around today, he would be suing the pants of old Elon.

I'm off to watch BigClive.

Reply privately

Reply in forum

Reply +quote

Post new Message to Thread

Gas Storage - Where is it?