FabSwingers.com forum: proportional representation?

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Would you prefer PR to our current system? Yes? No? Why?

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

"Would you prefer PR to our current system? Yes? No? Why?"

Under PR every vote counts.

So yes.

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By *leasure domMan
over a year ago

Edinburgh

The lib-dems wanted PR as part of their coalition demands for "sharing power" with the tories, but proper PR was not in the interests of the tory party, so the version of PR which was offered to the electorate wasn't fit for purpose. And no tuition fees, another manifesto promise, was also compromised, so we'll done Nick Clegg, you sold out completely for the ministerial perks.

PR is not in the self-interest of the tories, who are in the business of gaining power rather than honouring democratic principles, so I can't see it being introduced.

Power, corruption, self-enrichment and abuse of democracy - that's the tory way. Always has been, always will be.

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

"Would you prefer PR to our current system? Yes? No? Why?

Under PR every vote counts.

So yes."

This.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Used in northern ireland and doesn't work

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

"Used in northern ireland and doesn't work"

So having a system where every vote counts doesn't work?

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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

Definitely needed in this country to give everyone a voice. It’s madness that a party can acquire just over a third of the votes but have an unassailable majority in parliament. It’s why I believe less and less people vote. What’s the point?

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By *al2001Man
over a year ago

kildare

"Used in northern ireland and doesn't work"

Its used in all of ireland.

Why doesnt it work exactly?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Would you prefer PR to our current system? Yes? No? Why?"

Yes, as stated before, your vote counts,

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By *ap d agde coupleCouple
over a year ago

Herne Bay

Yes in favour of it, but doubt very much it will ever happen , not in the interest of Tories or Labour

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Definitely…demoralised to live in a constituency which is nailed on for the tories…never feel represented and understand why some people feel voting is pointless

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

PR is really the only true form of democracy. Arguments against are that it opens the door for extremists, but much as that may be distasteful, if a sufficient number of people agree with their views, then they should be represented.

The arguments that support FPTP tend to focus around constituency politics but that is a myth. MPs are whipped by their party to vote a specific way so cannot be said the be representing constituents. Plus as recent days have shown, too many MPs have 2nd/3rd jobs and outside interests that compromise their constituency priorities!

PR will lead to more coalition governments but I would argue that compromise is a good thing and can act as a check & balance on executive policy.

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By *lixerMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

PR with a written constitution. And no UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"PR is really the only true form of democracy. Arguments against are that it opens the door for extremists, but much as that may be distasteful, if a sufficient number of people agree with their views, then they should be represented.

PR will lead to more coalition governments but I would argue that compromise is a good thing and can act as a check & balance on executive policy."
put better than the attempt I was going to do

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

PR will lead to more coalition governments but I would argue that compromise is a good thing and can act as a check & balance on executive policy."

Well said

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By *ebbie69Couple
over a year ago

milton keynes

"Would you prefer PR to our current system? Yes? No? Why?"

A cautious yes from me.

Yes because of the same reasons already mentioned here.

Cautious as some extreme positions can gain influence/power. Ukip won the euro elections more than once with PR. Hopefully these things can be mitigated as do prefer the basic principle of PR

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By *coptoCouple
over a year ago

Côte d'Azur & Great Yarmouth

"PR will lead to more coalition governments"

Exactly... do we want to end up like Italy with a yearly power struggle (they've had nearly 70 governments since the end of World War II)?

I prefer stability: our minority parties only want PR so they can grab a piece of the pie, that's all.

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

""PR will lead to more coalition governments"

Exactly... do we want to end up like Italy with a yearly power struggle (they've had nearly 70 governments since the end of World War II)?

I prefer stability: our minority parties only want PR so they can grab a piece of the pie, that's all."

Yeah just look at what that stability has got us right now! An 80 seat majority allowing BJ led govt (not going to even call them Tories as they are really proto-fascists) to pretty much do whatever they like and rendering all opposition (ergo checks and balances on the executive) impotent. FPTP is a broken outdated system that allows majority govts even when they do not receive the majority of votes.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

There are many forms of PR. Some countries seem to be better at it than others.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

""PR will lead to more coalition governments"

Exactly... do we want to end up like Italy with a yearly power struggle (they've had nearly 70 governments since the end of World War II)?

I prefer stability: our minority parties only want PR so they can grab a piece of the pie, that's all.

Conversely, under PR, you could have 3 parties. One on 45%, another on 40% and one on 15%. Which party has the power there?

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

""PR will lead to more coalition governments"

Exactly... do we want to end up like Italy with a yearly power struggle (they've had nearly 70 governments since the end of World War II)?

I prefer stability: our minority parties only want PR so they can grab a piece of the pie, that's all.

Conversely, under PR, you could have 3 parties. One on 45%, another on 40% and one on 15%. Which party has the power there? "

40+15

40+45

Not 40 or 15 on their own

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

Nearly 1/3 of the electorate didn't vote in the last general election...maybe voting itself should be compulsory before looking at changing the voting system?

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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

""PR will lead to more coalition governments"

Exactly... do we want to end up like Italy with a yearly power struggle (they've had nearly 70 governments since the end of World War II)?

I prefer stability: our minority parties only want PR so they can grab a piece of the pie, that's all."

Why should at least 30% of the population have no say in how we are governed? At moment it’s 60%.

I was afraid of the Italy scenario but I think we have been held back by our politics too . They are still a top nation despite 70 governments . Recent issues but a lot of that is down to the same attitude as the Greeks . They don’t like to pay their taxes . At least 22% of their GDP is in the black economy.

In Italy the north’s south divide is worse than the centralisation of resource in London for us. ( yes hard to believe it could be worse). This has held back huge potential as it’s done here for decades.

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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

"Nearly 1/3 of the electorate didn't vote in the last general election...maybe voting itself should be compulsory before looking at changing the voting system?"

I think more people will vote if they think it counts .

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

"Nearly 1/3 of the electorate didn't vote in the last general election...maybe voting itself should be compulsory before looking at changing the voting system?

I think more people will vote if they think it counts . "

Every vote counts

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

"Nearly 1/3 of the electorate didn't vote in the last general election...maybe voting itself should be compulsory before looking at changing the voting system?

I think more people will vote if they think it counts .

Every vote counts"

Really?

Try voting in a fully blue or red constituency

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Used in northern ireland and doesn't work"

It does work in that the fridges don’t hold the power and it forces parties to talk to each other… you tend to get a more moderate form of politics…

Both labour and the conservatives would never agree to it as the current system is skewed towards both of them as the get more seats than they would get otherwise…

See I would like the Scottish devolution election system as that gets the best of both worlds… you still get to keep FPTP, but then the rest is filled in thru PR…

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By *coptoCouple
over a year ago

Côte d'Azur & Great Yarmouth

As Mercury said: "There are many forms of PR. Some countries seem to be better at it than others"

I don't know all the systems (party lists, preference votes, secind choices etc.), but in those I do know - and have participated in - you're never quite sure WHO you're voting for.

You may vote for your local Green only because he/she is the best candidate, but your vote is also included in the total to establish the appropriate number of Green MPs.

Which might or might not (probably won't) include your local favourite and some absolute wanker gets into Westminster!

And you've still got an established Red or Blue as your local representative...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As Mercury said: "There are many forms of PR. Some countries seem to be better at it than others"

I don't know all the systems (party lists, preference votes, secind choices etc.), but in those I do know - and have participated in - you're never quite sure WHO you're voting for.

You may vote for your local Green only because he/she is the best candidate, but your vote is also included in the total to establish the appropriate number of Green MPs.

Which might or might not (probably won't) include your local favourite and some absolute wanker gets into Westminster!

And you've still got an established Red or Blue as your local representative..."
that is the down side... If you believe that MPs act on behalf of constituents rather than follow part lines. They probably are party on major issues and constituents on minor.

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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

"Nearly 1/3 of the electorate didn't vote in the last general election...maybe voting itself should be compulsory before looking at changing the voting system?

I think more people will vote if they think it counts .

Every vote counts"

No it doesn’t with First past the post !!

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

[Removed by poster at 16/11/21 15:12:04]

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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"Nearly 1/3 of the electorate didn't vote in the last general election...maybe voting itself should be compulsory before looking at changing the voting system?

I think more people will vote if they think it counts .

Every vote counts"

I hadn’t really heard of EVC but then looked it up. Interesting concept...

“The Every Vote Counts system is simplicity itself. Voters go to the polls and vote for their candidate exactly as they do now. The MP is elected by winning the most number of votes in their constituency exactly as they do now. As far as the voter is concerned they do not have to do anything differently. The ballot papers look the same; the votes are cast in the same way. They get an MP as they do now. What is different is what happens to the votes cast for the candidates that lost.

The votes for losing candidates are not thrown away as now. They are collected across several constituencies, roughly conforming to the County of those constituencies, and these losing votes are counted. The party with the most votes from these losing ballot papers becomes an additional Member of Parliament – a County MP.

To avoid Parliament becoming even more overcrowded, the number of constituency MPs would need to be reduced to make room for the new County MPs and constituency boundaries enlarged accordingly.”

Edited to add quote marks as not my words!

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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

I think local councils should all be independent no national party politics. Then only allow MPs to be in national parties . You are then voting for national issues not local. Your local council should then pressure your ejected MP to work on local issues at a national level.

PR votes for parliament would then only be about national issues and truly reflect people’s viewpoints in the chamber.

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By *drianukMan
over a year ago

Spain, Lancs

It would hasten the decline of the Labour Party

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

"It would hasten the decline of the Labour Party"

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By *drianukMan
over a year ago

Spain, Lancs

"It would hasten the decline of the Labour Party

Poor comeback. Try again

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

"It would hasten the decline of the Labour Party

Poor comeback. Try again"

No point. You didn't understand the first one.

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By *drianukMan
over a year ago

Spain, Lancs

"It would hasten the decline of the Labour Party

Poor comeback. Try again

No point. You didn't understand the first one.

But, but, but... you're comment was an emoji. Can't you do better than that.

Labour will be finished with PR. Bring it on

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

"It would hasten the decline of the Labour Party

Poor comeback. Try again

No point. You didn't understand the first one.

But, but, but... you're comment was an emoji. Can't you do better than that.

Labour will be finished with PR. Bring it on"

Why should I make an effort for you?

It's not as if you introduce interesting insights.

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By *drianukMan
over a year ago

Spain, Lancs

"It would hasten the decline of the Labour Party

Poor comeback. Try again

No point. You didn't understand the first one.

But, but, but... you're comment was an emoji. Can't you do better than that.

Labour will be finished with PR. Bring it on

Why should I make an effort for you?

It's not as if you introduce interesting insights.

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

"It would hasten the decline of the Labour Party

Poor comeback. Try again

No point. You didn't understand the first one.

But, but, but... you're comment was an emoji. Can't you do better than that.

Labour will be finished with PR. Bring it on

Why should I make an effort for you?

It's not as if you introduce interesting insights.

So if an emoji is a poor come back, then by your logic, two must be doubly so .

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By *drianukMan
over a year ago

Spain, Lancs

"It would hasten the decline of the Labour Party

Poor comeback. Try again

No point. You didn't understand the first one.

But, but, but... you're comment was an emoji. Can't you do better than that.

Labour will be finished with PR. Bring it on

Why should I make an effort for you?

It's not as if you introduce interesting insights.

So if an emoji is a poor come back, then by your logic, two must be doubly so ."

But I made the point that PR will finish the Labour party.

If you disagree, say why

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

"Nearly 1/3 of the electorate didn't vote in the last general election...maybe voting itself should be compulsory before looking at changing the voting system?

I think more people will vote if they think it counts .

Every vote counts

I hadn’t really heard of EVC but then looked it up. Interesting concept...

To avoid Parliament becoming even more overcrowded, the number of constituency MPs would need to be reduced to make room for the new County MPs and constituency boundaries enlarged accordingly.”

Edited to add quote marks as not my words!"

So every vote DOES count?

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