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On being good at history

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Do you think it requires actual intelligence or is it just a case of having a good memory for facts?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

intelligent people have great memories

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Aren’t most subjects just a case of having a good memory? Outside of the creative ones.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Aren’t most subjects just a case of having a good memory? Outside of the creative ones. "

I think history stands alone in purely being about remembering facts. There is no possibility of experimentation or variation that allows one to come to their own conclusions.

As to whether a good memory is linked to intelligence? That depends on the study you read, many claim that forgetfulness is a sign of intelligence. I subscribe to that one.

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By *hilloutMan
over a year ago

All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest

Being good at history is more than just memorizing dates and events. You have to take into account the social context at the time and the underlying reasons that may have led to those events. This requires a great deal of general culture and perception as well.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Ive had this discussion with jay lots of times. He has a brain that soaks up information. It fascinates me that brains can hold that much information. I have an empty brain as very little sinks in

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

History is less about remembering facts (though that helps) and more about analysing them to work put what is the most likely explanation for past events. The 'facts' are often subject to distortion, bias and outright lies. A classic case is The Black Hole of Calcutta where the official version was written by a survivor with delusions of heroism. Data have proved he was a liar although an eye witness. Questioning what is stated is more important than knowing. Big question: how do you know anything? And do you believe everything you are told?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think if you have a genuine interest in something then you will learn about it. Intelligence can come in many forms and is not just about learning facts.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

History is a few facts such as dates, locations etc and a whole load of personal opinion and interpretation.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex


"History is less about remembering facts (though that helps) and more about analysing them to work put what is the most likely explanation for past events. The 'facts' are often subject to distortion, bias and outright lies. A classic case is The Black Hole of Calcutta where the official version was written by a survivor with delusions of heroism. Data have proved he was a liar although an eye witness. Questioning what is stated is more important than knowing. Big question: how do you know anything? And do you believe everything you are told? "

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale


"Being good at history is more than just memorizing dates and events. You have to take into account the social context at the time and the underlying reasons that may have led to those events. This requires a great deal of general culture and perception as well."

This.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm crap at remembering stuff like that

Google is my best friend

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By *SAchickWoman
over a year ago

Hillside desolate


"History is less about remembering facts (though that helps) and more about analysing them to work put what is the most likely explanation for past events. The 'facts' are often subject to distortion, bias and outright lies. A classic case is The Black Hole of Calcutta where the official version was written by a survivor with delusions of heroism. Data have proved he was a liar although an eye witness. Questioning what is stated is more important than knowing. Big question: how do you know anything? And do you believe everything you are told? "

Spot on

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex


"Aren’t most subjects just a case of having a good memory? Outside of the creative ones.

I think history stands alone in purely being about remembering facts. There is no possibility of experimentation or variation that allows one to come to their own conclusions.

As to whether a good memory is linked to intelligence? That depends on the study you read, many claim that forgetfulness is a sign of intelligence. I subscribe to that one. "

History is much more than remembering facts. Even recent history is perceived differently by individuals

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"History is a few facts such as dates, locations etc and a whole load of personal opinion and interpretation."

This.

I once watched in horror as a world expert on a particular subject reminded himself of a key "facts and figures" detail about the area of his expertise by looking it up on Wikipedia.

It didn't detract from his expertise at all. Just... Yikes haha

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By *allySlinkyWoman
over a year ago

Leeds


"Aren’t most subjects just a case of having a good memory? Outside of the creative ones. "

Subjects like maths and physics need intelligence, not just a good memory.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex


"History is a few facts such as dates, locations etc and a whole load of personal opinion and interpretation.

This.

I once watched in horror as a world expert on a particular subject reminded himself of a key "facts and figures" detail about the area of his expertise by looking it up on Wikipedia.

It didn't detract from his expertise at all. Just... Yikes haha"

.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

We know the basics of Anne Boleyn's life but most of what the general public know of her character and life is propaganda put about by the court of Henry VIII after he had her executed. It takes intelligence to look beyond that and seek out further information

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"We know the basics of Anne Boleyn's life but most of what the general public know of her character and life is propaganda put about by the court of Henry VIII after he had her executed. It takes intelligence to look beyond that and seek out further information"

Good point, history is always written by the victors and it depends on which set of 'facts' we choose to subscribe to.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"We know the basics of Anne Boleyn's life but most of what the general public know of her character and life is propaganda put about by the court of Henry VIII after he had her executed. It takes intelligence to look beyond that and seek out further information

Good point, history is always written by the victors and it depends on which set of 'facts' we choose to subscribe to."

Yes. Interpreting information, being aware of language use, constraints on what was recorded and not, societal bias to take into account, what we might be able to tell about the views that don't get recorded (why is that?). How do you reconcile conflicting accounts? What's reliable or not? What are spins you'll find in different genres of material? Do you learn anything indirectly from material not ostensibly about what you're looking at?

Facts and figures are secondary once you have a rudimentary grasp.

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By *layfullsamMan
over a year ago

Solihull

If you visit a castle for example you can have a guide just quote dates so he knows what happens when

But a good historian brings those facts and history to life by painting a picture in your mind where you could actually be there.

Such a difference

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool


"We know the basics of Anne Boleyn's life but most of what the general public know of her character and life is propaganda put about by the court of Henry VIII after he had her executed. It takes intelligence to look beyond that and seek out further information

Good point, history is always written by the victors and it depends on which set of 'facts' we choose to subscribe to."

Written history is written by the Victors.

Archaeology is entirely different as the only Victor is what actually happened. That is where the intelligence comes in. To be able to piece together puzzles of the past to find said true history.

3 sides to every story. The winner, the loser and the truth.

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By *2000ManMan
over a year ago

Worthing

Good memory for facts and an interest in the subject.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

An inquisitive mind and an interest of some kind to the subject matter.

I love history, well certain periods of it at least.

I wouldn't class myself as overly intelligent and I've a shocking memory for dates.

But, I can tell you a lot about the Roman's, Golden Age of Piracy and ofcourse.. The Mongol Empire.

In the case of the latter my knowledge is in on par with most historians, because there isn't a lot of available recorded knowledge out there to soak up.

An interest is all you need to enjoy history, the ability to place your feet in the shoes of the people who lived in those times.. and the difference their society was in comparison to ours.. helps.

Though placing your feet in those shoes isn't necessarily what the academic side is about. Though that side doesnt really interest me. People and stories do.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"We know the basics of Anne Boleyn's life but most of what the general public know of her character and life is propaganda put about by the court of Henry VIII after he had her executed. It takes intelligence to look beyond that and seek out further information

Good point, history is always written by the victors and it depends on which set of 'facts' we choose to subscribe to.

Written history is written by the Victors.

Archaeology is entirely different as the only Victor is what actually happened. That is where the intelligence comes in. To be able to piece together puzzles of the past to find said true history.

3 sides to every story. The winner, the loser and the truth. "

Hmm. Archaeology is what's left behind, which isn't just what happened, but what was left behind, what was or wasn't destroyed, the sometimes sheer accidents of preservation, the interpretation thereof, and the skill of the team in preserving rather than destroying details.

They all work together. But all are fallible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

History isn't always written by the Victor's.

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

It maybe just a matter of memory below GCSE but a more in depth anaysis requires a deeper understanding.

Cause, Course and Consequences was how I understand history should be studied.

But then again whose history are we talking about. Take the British Empire for example, a former colony will have a different take on things than the UK will.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"History isn't always written by the Victor's. "

Yes. The victors are more likely to be able to have their history recorded in the short term. In the long term, though, who's preserving that information and why? That's an interesting story in itself, and often bears little or no relation to the events that transpired.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"History isn't always written by the Victor's.

Yes. The victors are more likely to be able to have their history recorded in the short term. In the long term, though, who's preserving that information and why? That's an interesting story in itself, and often bears little or no relation to the events that transpired. "

Exactly.. the Chinese government is taking an unhealthy interest in Mongol history. Possibly in a way the Japanese used Bushido prior to WW2.

History gets manipulated and twisted over time, depending on what story needs telling.

A good bullshit radar is often needed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Also.. their are often multiple accounts from different sources.

There are Chinese, Middle Eastern and European sources to add to the Mongols own secret history.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"History isn't always written by the Victor's.

Yes. The victors are more likely to be able to have their history recorded in the short term. In the long term, though, who's preserving that information and why? That's an interesting story in itself, and often bears little or no relation to the events that transpired.

Exactly.. the Chinese government is taking an unhealthy interest in Mongol history. Possibly in a way the Japanese used Bushido prior to WW2.

History gets manipulated and twisted over time, depending on what story needs telling.

A good bullshit radar is often needed."

Yes. The prominence of ancient Athens in modern thoughts about ancient Greece, for example, is influenced by the switch in popular thought towards more democratic political institutions.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Also.. their are often multiple accounts from different sources.

There are Chinese, Middle Eastern and European sources to add to the Mongols own secret history."

Yes. Or in some cases glaring absences about which you need to extrapolate.

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool


"We know the basics of Anne Boleyn's life but most of what the general public know of her character and life is propaganda put about by the court of Henry VIII after he had her executed. It takes intelligence to look beyond that and seek out further information

Good point, history is always written by the victors and it depends on which set of 'facts' we choose to subscribe to.

Written history is written by the Victors.

Archaeology is entirely different as the only Victor is what actually happened. That is where the intelligence comes in. To be able to piece together puzzles of the past to find said true history.

3 sides to every story. The winner, the loser and the truth.

Hmm. Archaeology is what's left behind, which isn't just what happened, but what was left behind, what was or wasn't destroyed, the sometimes sheer accidents of preservation, the interpretation thereof, and the skill of the team in preserving rather than destroying details.

They all work together. But all are fallible. "

True but my point was more about the intelligence side of it all, working out the puzzle based on what is left behind.

Not quite the history that the OP is renfering to and has blurred lines with science but the discovery of a new dinosaur is more than just remembering things.

Same goes for lots of other new discoveries, the process of using logic to piece together what happen across the gap that is both sides.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"History isn't always written by the Victor's.

Yes. The victors are more likely to be able to have their history recorded in the short term. In the long term, though, who's preserving that information and why? That's an interesting story in itself, and often bears little or no relation to the events that transpired.

Exactly.. the Chinese government is taking an unhealthy interest in Mongol history. Possibly in a way the Japanese used Bushido prior to WW2.

History gets manipulated and twisted over time, depending on what story needs telling.

A good bullshit radar is often needed.

Yes. The prominence of ancient Athens in modern thoughts about ancient Greece, for example, is influenced by the switch in popular thought towards more democratic political institutions. "

I was thinking about that example when I read what you wrote.

You very rarely hear about the brutality or inequality in greek and roman history.

Just how they're the birthplace of our democratic systems and the stories always seem twisted in their favour.

I've yet to see a film that shows Caesars conquests of Celtic Europe that shows the Roman's at their most brutal, imperialist, expansionist power and what that did to the the nations that rubbed up alongside their borders.

Roman's and Greeks are always the good guys in our media.

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By *ensualpleasures69Man
over a year ago

leeds

History.... look guys, it’s all in the past, no future in it. Lol, move on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"History.... look guys, it’s all in the past, no future in it. Lol, move on "

Without learning the lessons from our past, we're doomed to repeat them in our future..

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"History isn't always written by the Victor's.

Yes. The victors are more likely to be able to have their history recorded in the short term. In the long term, though, who's preserving that information and why? That's an interesting story in itself, and often bears little or no relation to the events that transpired.

Exactly.. the Chinese government is taking an unhealthy interest in Mongol history. Possibly in a way the Japanese used Bushido prior to WW2.

History gets manipulated and twisted over time, depending on what story needs telling.

A good bullshit radar is often needed.

Yes. The prominence of ancient Athens in modern thoughts about ancient Greece, for example, is influenced by the switch in popular thought towards more democratic political institutions.

I was thinking about that example when I read what you wrote.

You very rarely hear about the brutality or inequality in greek and roman history.

Just how they're the birthplace of our democratic systems and the stories always seem twisted in their favour.

I've yet to see a film that shows Caesars conquests of Celtic Europe that shows the Roman's at their most brutal, imperialist, expansionist power and what that did to the the nations that rubbed up alongside their borders.

Roman's and Greeks are always the good guys in our media."

People ask me about ancient history. I tell them a sanitised version. They're still horrified and upset with me. I'm not going to lie...

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By *he Mac LassWoman
over a year ago

Hefty Hideaway

As a history student, the subject requires genuine interest and a thirst for unravelling the details and accounts of happenings. I find if I have that it's easily read, remembered and recalled.

Currently studying the people social groups and lives of early modern Europe. Honestly it is fascinating!

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By *entileschiWoman
over a year ago

Norwich

As Alan Bennet said, history is just one damn thing after another.

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By *entileschiWoman
over a year ago

Norwich


"Aren’t most subjects just a case of having a good memory? Outside of the creative ones.

I think history stands alone in purely being about remembering facts. There is no possibility of experimentation or variation that allows one to come to their own conclusions.

As to whether a good memory is linked to intelligence? That depends on the study you read, many claim that forgetfulness is a sign of intelligence. I subscribe to that one. "

History is often recorded by the winners and so constant reinterpretation of those facts is always needed.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I think historical analysis is much more absorption and then the application of good instinct, than memory.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I'm not suggesting that you don't have to be intelligent to be good at history.

The reason i wrote this post was because of a debate i was having with my eldest son over dinner regarding the validity of the State of Israel. I knew what he was saying was wrong but i couldn't remember the facts necessary to back up my point.

I have a shit memory, therefore i'm shit at history.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As a history student, the subject requires genuine interest and a thirst for unravelling the details and accounts of happenings. I find if I have that it's easily read, remembered and recalled.

Currently studying the people social groups and lives of early modern Europe. Honestly it is fascinating! "

Isn't it! I like what you wrote there.. Some subjects, you just get the bit between your teeth and go knowledge hunting. School should be all about encouraging THAT mentality. Rather than saying.. YOU MUST reach a certain proficiency in maths, English, Science to be deemed intelligent.

We're all wired differently and all paths lead to the same place in the end.

An initial fascination with piracy may lead into naval warfare, moving onto to ballistics and trajectories of cannon shot, or weather patterns, geography or sociology.

So long as kids/people are learning something they enjoy, they'll be good at it.

It's the kids left behind who lose all interest, begin to daydream and muck about. I hated history in school because the system seems to hold to the same view as the OP does/did? That it's all about remembering exact dates and facts (to the letter) and reciting them like a parrot on exam paper

Now? I'd LOVE to take a degree in it, I just can't afford to.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"As a history student, the subject requires genuine interest and a thirst for unravelling the details and accounts of happenings. I find if I have that it's easily read, remembered and recalled.

Currently studying the people social groups and lives of early modern Europe. Honestly it is fascinating!

Isn't it! I like what you wrote there.. Some subjects, you just get the bit between your teeth and go knowledge hunting. School should be all about encouraging THAT mentality. Rather than saying.. YOU MUST reach a certain proficiency in maths, English, Science to be deemed intelligent.

We're all wired differently and all paths lead to the same place in the end.

An initial fascination with piracy may lead into naval warfare, moving onto to ballistics and trajectories of cannon shot, or weather patterns, geography or sociology.

So long as kids/people are learning something they enjoy, they'll be good at it.

It's the kids left behind who lose all interest, begin to daydream and muck about. I hated history in school because the system seems to hold to the same view as the OP does/did? That it's all about remembering exact dates and facts (to the letter) and reciting them like a parrot on exam paper

Now? I'd LOVE to take a degree in it, I just can't afford to."

I'd like to point out that my op was an open question and does not imply in any way my own opinion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm not suggesting that you don't have to be intelligent to be good at history.

The reason i wrote this post was because of a debate i was having with my eldest son over dinner regarding the validity of the State of Israel. I knew what he was saying was wrong but i couldn't remember the facts necessary to back up my point.

I have a shit memory, therefore i'm shit at history. "

Ooooh you're treading on dangerous grounds there as far as validity of State of Israel.

I don't think there is a WRONG answer in that case, just lots of opinion.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I'm not suggesting that you don't have to be intelligent to be good at history.

The reason i wrote this post was because of a debate i was having with my eldest son over dinner regarding the validity of the State of Israel. I knew what he was saying was wrong but i couldn't remember the facts necessary to back up my point.

I have a shit memory, therefore i'm shit at history.

Ooooh you're treading on dangerous grounds there as far as validity of State of Israel.

I don't think there is a WRONG answer in that case, just lots of opinion.

"

Having taken the time to study the history of the region i can conclude that he was indeed wrong.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

I think to truly get the best out of learning about history it requires more than simply memorizing the facts as historical events create a ripple effect right up until the modern day. What's the point of simply knowing that something happened instead of looking into why. It's also important to learn from the mistakes made in the past. Unfortunately a lot of countries always portray themselves as the heroes in the accounts of history they teach and publish so it can require a lot of digging to get a true picture. Sometimes you never will.

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington


"Do you think it requires actual intelligence or is it just a case of having a good memory for facts?"
E H Carr explained the difference between facts and histories by explaining that every day, in ANcient Rome, thousands of people crossed the Rubicon. Those are facts. When Caesar did it with his troops, it ws historically significant. Knowing the difference is the practice of history.

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry


"I'm not suggesting that you don't have to be intelligent to be good at history.

The reason i wrote this post was because of a debate i was having with my eldest son over dinner regarding the validity of the State of Israel. I knew what he was saying was wrong but i couldn't remember the facts necessary to back up my point.

I have a shit memory, therefore i'm shit at history.

Ooooh you're treading on dangerous grounds there as far as validity of State of Israel.

I don't think there is a WRONG answer in that case, just lots of opinion.

"

There will never be any new sources of information on ancient Greece, modern history is constantly being reviewed and reassessed. The other thing is looking back with current perspectives. The practice of having a catamite was considered to be perfectly acceptable at one point. These days you will go to prison and have your name added to a list.

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By *pursChick aka ShortieWoman
over a year ago

On a mooch

my Lad asks so many questions about history... ‘did it really happen’ ‘were those people really that bad’ ‘why did people stand by and do nothing’, etc

History as we know it is from what someone wrote about it at the time, and there could be very different accounts of the same point.

You will never know the truth unless you were there and living during that time and witnessed it yourself.

Always two sides to a story, are you willing to find the other side

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By *V-AliceTV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr


"Do you think it requires actual intelligence or is it just a case of having a good memory for facts?"

History is largely about interpreting what are - currently - held to be facts; and there are many different conclusions you can arrive at. Also - and this has always been the case - who is writing the history? Who is supplying you with your "facts"; or indeed, your source materials.

I'd say intelligence is required to get the most out of studying it but that shouldn't stop anyone at all from having a go. It's fascinating stuff that we can all learn from.

Wee plug; on BBC Sounds, there's a huge archive of really interesting history content. In Our Time, Archive On 4, The Reunion, Witness History, The History of the World in 100 Objects, to name a few.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm not suggesting that you don't have to be intelligent to be good at history.

The reason i wrote this post was because of a debate i was having with my eldest son over dinner regarding the validity of the State of Israel. I knew what he was saying was wrong but i couldn't remember the facts necessary to back up my point.

I have a shit memory, therefore i'm shit at history.

Ooooh you're treading on dangerous grounds there as far as validity of State of Israel.

I don't think there is a WRONG answer in that case, just lots of opinion.

Having taken the time to study the history of the region i can conclude that he was indeed wrong. "

I guess that all depends on what he said.. and what your viewpoint is, after all your study.

There are celebrated academics who support Palestinian views, those who support Israeli views and those who sit on the fence and can debate a case for both sides of a very bitter argument/conflict.

All with the same access to same historical records.

Those records can prove someone wrong, but they rarely ever prove someone right.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I'm not suggesting that you don't have to be intelligent to be good at history.

The reason i wrote this post was because of a debate i was having with my eldest son over dinner regarding the validity of the State of Israel. I knew what he was saying was wrong but i couldn't remember the facts necessary to back up my point.

I have a shit memory, therefore i'm shit at history.

Ooooh you're treading on dangerous grounds there as far as validity of State of Israel.

I don't think there is a WRONG answer in that case, just lots of opinion.

Having taken the time to study the history of the region i can conclude that he was indeed wrong.

I guess that all depends on what he said.. and what your viewpoint is, after all your study.

There are celebrated academics who support Palestinian views, those who support Israeli views and those who sit on the fence and can debate a case for both sides of a very bitter argument/conflict.

All with the same access to same historical records.

Those records can prove someone wrong, but they rarely ever prove someone right.

"

In short we have opposing views. Round 2 tonight perhaps.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I'm not suggesting that you don't have to be intelligent to be good at history.

The reason i wrote this post was because of a debate i was having with my eldest son over dinner regarding the validity of the State of Israel. I knew what he was saying was wrong but i couldn't remember the facts necessary to back up my point.

I have a shit memory, therefore i'm shit at history.

Ooooh you're treading on dangerous grounds there as far as validity of State of Israel.

I don't think there is a WRONG answer in that case, just lots of opinion.

Having taken the time to study the history of the region i can conclude that he was indeed wrong.

I guess that all depends on what he said.. and what your viewpoint is, after all your study.

There are celebrated academics who support Palestinian views, those who support Israeli views and those who sit on the fence and can debate a case for both sides of a very bitter argument/conflict.

All with the same access to same historical records.

Those records can prove someone wrong, but they rarely ever prove someone right.

In short we have opposing views. Round 2 tonight perhaps. "

And there are some facts that just can't be argued regardless of one's viewpoint.

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By *apiomanMan
over a year ago

Shipley


"intelligent people have great memories "

How do you define intelligence? There is an overlap but it isn’t always the case.

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By *r Mahogany70Man
over a year ago

Leicester


"As to whether a good memory is linked to intelligence? That depends on the study you read, many claim that forgetfulness is a sign of intelligence. I subscribe to that one. "

As someone who has a memory like a goldfish with Alzheimer's I subscribe to that theory too.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool


"intelligent people have great memories

How do you define intelligence? There is an overlap but it isn’t always the case. "

I've always believed there are many different forms of intelligence and we all have differing levels of each. Unfortunately mainstream education mostly measures the same type with a little of a few others thrown in. Sadly it leaves a lot of people believing they aren't intelligent when they are just intelligent in different ways. As the saying goes, if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree...

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex


"We know the basics of Anne Boleyn's life but most of what the general public know of her character and life is propaganda put about by the court of Henry VIII after he had her executed. It takes intelligence to look beyond that and seek out further information

Good point, history is always written by the victors and it depends on which set of 'facts' we choose to subscribe to.

Written history is written by the Victors.

Archaeology is entirely different as the only Victor is what actually happened. That is where the intelligence comes in. To be able to piece together puzzles of the past to find said true history.

3 sides to every story. The winner, the loser and the truth. "

Archaeological evidence is always interpreted through the lens of the society looking at it. For instance the Victorians interpreted everything as evidence of conquered societies nowadays we tend to interpret it more as immigration

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By *ud and BryanCouple
over a year ago

Boston, Lincolnshire

Dave insists he is thick as two short planks and has a goldfish memory, but understands more about medieval social history than the vast majority of fellow reactors. So it's probably more about having a passion for the subject than either intelligence or a good memory.

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By *entileschiWoman
over a year ago

Norwich


"As a history student, the subject requires genuine interest and a thirst for unravelling the details and accounts of happenings. I find if I have that it's easily read, remembered and recalled.

Currently studying the people social groups and lives of early modern Europe. Honestly it is fascinating!

Isn't it! I like what you wrote there.. Some subjects, you just get the bit between your teeth and go knowledge hunting. School should be all about encouraging THAT mentality. Rather than saying.. YOU MUST reach a certain proficiency in maths, English, Science to be deemed intelligent.

We're all wired differently and all paths lead to the same place in the end.

An initial fascination with piracy may lead into naval warfare, moving onto to ballistics and trajectories of cannon shot, or weather patterns, geography or sociology.

So long as kids/people are learning something they enjoy, they'll be good at it.

It's the kids left behind who lose all interest, begin to daydream and muck about. I hated history in school because the system seems to hold to the same view as the OP does/did? That it's all about remembering exact dates and facts (to the letter) and reciting them like a parrot on exam paper

Now? I'd LOVE to take a degree in it, I just can't afford to."

Open University?

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By *allySlinkyWoman
over a year ago

Leeds


"

Now? I'd LOVE to take a degree in it, I just can't afford to.

Open University?"

£18,072 for an undergraduate degree course with the Open University.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"

Now? I'd LOVE to take a degree in it, I just can't afford to.

Open University?

£18,072 for an undergraduate degree course with the Open University. "

People may be able to find the reading lists and things like seminar questions for degree courses. Read the scholarly material you can access, find others of a similar calibre, play with the questions. It should be free or nearly and you'll engage some of the same processes.

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By *allySlinkyWoman
over a year ago

Leeds


"

Now? I'd LOVE to take a degree in it, I just can't afford to.

Open University?

£18,072 for an undergraduate degree course with the Open University.

People may be able to find the reading lists and things like seminar questions for degree courses. Read the scholarly material you can access, find others of a similar calibre, play with the questions. It should be free or nearly and you'll engage some of the same processes."

Great advice

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"intelligent people have great memories

How do you define intelligence? There is an overlap but it isn’t always the case.

I've always believed there are many different forms of intelligence and we all have differing levels of each. Unfortunately mainstream education mostly measures the same type with a little of a few others thrown in. Sadly it leaves a lot of people believing they aren't intelligent when they are just intelligent in different ways. As the saying goes, if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree..."

I see intelligence as being akin to wisdom. Knowledge is just knowing stuff, being able to retain information.

Intelligence, on the other hand, is the ability to interpret and apply that knowledge.

Like knowing that not only is a tomato a fruit, one really should not put it in a fruit salad.

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By *apiomanMan
over a year ago

Shipley

Although I get that there is a lot of fact selecting and interpretation in history, I worry that this leads to an everything being fluid, particularly those who claim nazi atrocities didn’t really happen.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Although I get that there is a lot of fact selecting and interpretation in history, I worry that this leads to an everything being fluid, particularly those who claim nazi atrocities didn’t really happen. "

I think it's universally fair to say that people who believe that are delusional morons ( putting it mildly). I don't see how you can interpret the remains of the death camps, cinematic evidence and eyewitness accounts as being anything else.

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By *oodnitegirlWoman
over a year ago

Yorkshire


"History is less about remembering facts (though that helps) and more about analysing them to work put what is the most likely explanation for past events. The 'facts' are often subject to distortion, bias and outright lies. A classic case is The Black Hole of Calcutta where the official version was written by a survivor with delusions of heroism. Data have proved he was a liar although an eye witness. Questioning what is stated is more important than knowing. Big question: how do you know anything? And do you believe everything you are told? "

“History is written by those who hung the heroes” - Braveheart.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Although I get that there is a lot of fact selecting and interpretation in history, I worry that this leads to an everything being fluid, particularly those who claim nazi atrocities didn’t really happen. "

There are degrees of fluidity. It's about looking at the cumulation of evidence and working out where to draw the line.

Unfortunately as with anything, people will see the line as an affront to their freedom or some such shit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What a great discussion. Thank you all and OP for starting it.

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed – if all records told the same tale – then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. 'Reality control,' they called it: in Newspeak, 'doublethink.'

George Orwell 1984

It is even more relevant than ever in this age of 'fake news. OP Buy your lad a copy of The Great War for Civilisation by Robert Fisk.

TLDR: It started in a sandwich shop in Sarejevo in 1913, today we have ISIS

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"

And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed – if all records told the same tale – then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. 'Reality control,' they called it: in Newspeak, 'doublethink.'

George Orwell 1984

It is even more relevant than ever in this age of 'fake news. OP Buy your lad a copy of The Great War for Civilisation by Robert Fisk.

TLDR: It started in a sandwich shop in Sarejevo in 1913, today we have ISIS"

Thanks for that. I might pick a copy up for myself.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As a history student, the subject requires genuine interest and a thirst for unravelling the details and accounts of happenings. I find if I have that it's easily read, remembered and recalled.

Currently studying the people social groups and lives of early modern Europe. Honestly it is fascinating!

Isn't it! I like what you wrote there.. Some subjects, you just get the bit between your teeth and go knowledge hunting. School should be all about encouraging THAT mentality. Rather than saying.. YOU MUST reach a certain proficiency in maths, English, Science to be deemed intelligent.

We're all wired differently and all paths lead to the same place in the end.

An initial fascination with piracy may lead into naval warfare, moving onto to ballistics and trajectories of cannon shot, or weather patterns, geography or sociology.

So long as kids/people are learning something they enjoy, they'll be good at it.

It's the kids left behind who lose all interest, begin to daydream and muck about. I hated history in school because the system seems to hold to the same view as the OP does/did? That it's all about remembering exact dates and facts (to the letter) and reciting them like a parrot on exam paper

Now? I'd LOVE to take a degree in it, I just can't afford to.

Open University?"

Can't afford it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Now? I'd LOVE to take a degree in it, I just can't afford to.

Open University?

£18,072 for an undergraduate degree course with the Open University.

People may be able to find the reading lists and things like seminar questions for degree courses. Read the scholarly material you can access, find others of a similar calibre, play with the questions. It should be free or nearly and you'll engage some of the same processes."

You dont come out of that with a qualification that way, so what is the point? I'll select my own reading lists if I'm doing it for my own enjoyment.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do American schools teach the same version of history as British schools do?

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By * and M lookingCouple
over a year ago

Worcester


"Do you think it requires actual intelligence or is it just a case of having a good memory for facts?"

Each persons take on history will be different though, even though it is fact and has taken place.

Without intelligence you would struggle with any topic.

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By * and M lookingCouple
over a year ago

Worcester


"Do American schools teach the same version of history as British schools do?"

Our history doesn't exist in the USA, they use the movies to re-enact theirs though and tailor them to suit how they want the outcome to be portrayed.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Do American schools teach the same version of history as British schools do?

Our history doesn't exist in the USA, they use the movies to re-enact theirs though and tailor them to suit how they want the outcome to be portrayed. "

Just look at how they portrayed the native Americans.

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry


"Do American schools teach the same version of history as British schools do?"

They celebrate the American Revolution if that is your point.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Do American schools teach the same version of history as British schools do?

Our history doesn't exist in the USA, they use the movies to re-enact theirs though and tailor them to suit how they want the outcome to be portrayed.

Just look at how they portrayed the native Americans. "

They teach that we, the British are the bad guys and paint a more realistic picture of how the British Empire was perceived by the colonies it controlled and the citizens within it.

Yet we, in stark contrast are taught next to nothing about that war, just Roman's, Saxons, Norman's, Vikings, WW1 and WW2.

Well when I was a kid, that was the case, my sons have been taught exactly the same so far.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool


"Do American schools teach the same version of history as British schools do?

Our history doesn't exist in the USA, they use the movies to re-enact theirs though and tailor them to suit how they want the outcome to be portrayed.

Just look at how they portrayed the native Americans.

They teach that we, the British are the bad guys and paint a more realistic picture of how the British Empire was perceived by the colonies it controlled and the citizens within it.

Yet we, in stark contrast are taught next to nothing about that war, just Roman's, Saxons, Norman's, Vikings, WW1 and WW2.

Well when I was a kid, that was the case, my sons have been taught exactly the same so far.

"

The Americans do however portray themselves as the good guys in the exact same way that we do. According to their textbooks the native Americans basically just agreed to hand over their land.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Do American schools teach the same version of history as British schools do?

Our history doesn't exist in the USA, they use the movies to re-enact theirs though and tailor them to suit how they want the outcome to be portrayed.

Just look at how they portrayed the native Americans.

They teach that we, the British are the bad guys and paint a more realistic picture of how the British Empire was perceived by the colonies it controlled and the citizens within it.

Yet we, in stark contrast are taught next to nothing about that war, just Roman's, Saxons, Norman's, Vikings, WW1 and WW2.

Well when I was a kid, that was the case, my sons have been taught exactly the same so far.

The Americans do however portray themselves as the good guys in the exact same way that we do. According to their textbooks the native Americans basically just agreed to hand over their land."

True, but i think that's Mavis's point.

Even with facts, you'll get different viewpoints.

Inaswingdress put it perfectly with her comments..

It's not always written by the winners, but it's often manipulated.

I enjoy it every time the Crusades is brought up by the Right Wing in arguments with Muslims on Facebook.

I can't help but step in and say, if it weren't for the Mongols appearance, we in the West would have probably most likely had our asses handed to us by the Islamic world.

Only.. The Mongols did it for us, very few people seem to know about them. Or how close the entire Eurasian landmass came to being totally conquered by a group of nomadic herds people.

If not for poor succession laws, theres a chance we'd all be speaking Mongolian and be the worlds only Superpower Dual Continent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Aren’t most subjects just a case of having a good memory? Outside of the creative ones.

I think history stands alone in purely being about remembering facts. There is no possibility of experimentation or variation that allows one to come to their own conclusions.

As to whether a good memory is linked to intelligence? That depends on the study you read, many claim that forgetfulness is a sign of intelligence. I subscribe to that one. "

There is if you question something in History!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"intelligent people have great memories "

True!...but no common sense apparently x

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"

Now? I'd LOVE to take a degree in it, I just can't afford to.

Open University?

£18,072 for an undergraduate degree course with the Open University.

People may be able to find the reading lists and things like seminar questions for degree courses. Read the scholarly material you can access, find others of a similar calibre, play with the questions. It should be free or nearly and you'll engage some of the same processes.

You dont come out of that with a qualification that way, so what is the point? I'll select my own reading lists if I'm doing it for my own enjoyment. "

More likely to be reliable material.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Do American schools teach the same version of history as British schools do?"

No, certainly not.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Now? I'd LOVE to take a degree in it, I just can't afford to.

Open University?

£18,072 for an undergraduate degree course with the Open University.

People may be able to find the reading lists and things like seminar questions for degree courses. Read the scholarly material you can access, find others of a similar calibre, play with the questions. It should be free or nearly and you'll engage some of the same processes.

You dont come out of that with a qualification that way, so what is the point? I'll select my own reading lists if I'm doing it for my own enjoyment.

More likely to be reliable material."

True, but if I get the bit between my teeth I'm likely to want to soak up as much as possible on a subject, then make my own mind up when I run out of material.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool


"Do American schools teach the same version of history as British schools do?

Our history doesn't exist in the USA, they use the movies to re-enact theirs though and tailor them to suit how they want the outcome to be portrayed.

Just look at how they portrayed the native Americans.

They teach that we, the British are the bad guys and paint a more realistic picture of how the British Empire was perceived by the colonies it controlled and the citizens within it.

Yet we, in stark contrast are taught next to nothing about that war, just Roman's, Saxons, Norman's, Vikings, WW1 and WW2.

Well when I was a kid, that was the case, my sons have been taught exactly the same so far.

The Americans do however portray themselves as the good guys in the exact same way that we do. According to their textbooks the native Americans basically just agreed to hand over their land.

True, but i think that's Mavis's point.

Even with facts, you'll get different viewpoints.

Inaswingdress put it perfectly with her comments..

It's not always written by the winners, but it's often manipulated.

I enjoy it every time the Crusades is brought up by the Right Wing in arguments with Muslims on Facebook.

I can't help but step in and say, if it weren't for the Mongols appearance, we in the West would have probably most likely had our asses handed to us by the Islamic world.

Only.. The Mongols did it for us, very few people seem to know about them. Or how close the entire Eurasian landmass came to being totally conquered by a group of nomadic herds people.

If not for poor succession laws, theres a chance we'd all be speaking Mongolian and be the worlds only Superpower Dual Continent.

"

I'm clearly not with it it all. I've just reread the conversation and I missed out a big chunk when I first read it.

Unfortunately facts can be twisted to suit your agenda. We see politicians do it all the time.

It's always sad how the contribution of other countries is never acknowledged enough when it comes to war. There is never one country that "wins". There is rarely even only two sides. Though in my eyes there are no victors in war but that's a whole other subject.

Now I'm going to keep out of discussions that require brainpower for now until I can attempt to be mostly coherent

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"Do you think it requires actual intelligence or is it just a case of having a good memory for facts?"

I don't remember dates and names easily but I remember historical themes and what they teach us now.

Is that intelligence or just interest?

The historians I read, watch and listen turn the facts into something engaging, relevant and I believe that takes intelligence, creativity and craft.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Now that's I've read the thread... I concur with much of what has been discussed.

GK, I do MOOCs. Free and opens up new avenues of learning and material.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross


"Do you think it requires actual intelligence or is it just a case of having a good memory for facts?"

History is the past.

It is not important whether you remember what the date was yesterday but it is important to gather information about yesterday, to analyse it closely and be able to make comparisons/draw conclusions and build theories in as unbiased a manner as possible to explain social phenomena.

Historians use many of the skills used by scientists and dates are a microscopic part of it.

A fool can remember dates.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

History is not just about facts. History was often written by victors. Therefore what really happened often takes analysis.

Plus there are huge gaps, say in the chronology of the Roman Empire. Good historians use reason to work out what may have been going on in those times.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Do American schools teach the same version of history as British schools do?

Our history doesn't exist in the USA, they use the movies to re-enact theirs though and tailor them to suit how they want the outcome to be portrayed.

Just look at how they portrayed the native Americans.

They teach that we, the British are the bad guys and paint a more realistic picture of how the British Empire was perceived by the colonies it controlled and the citizens within it.

Yet we, in stark contrast are taught next to nothing about that war, just Roman's, Saxons, Norman's, Vikings, WW1 and WW2.

Well when I was a kid, that was the case, my sons have been taught exactly the same so far.

The Americans do however portray themselves as the good guys in the exact same way that we do. According to their textbooks the native Americans basically just agreed to hand over their land.

True, but i think that's Mavis's point.

Even with facts, you'll get different viewpoints.

Inaswingdress put it perfectly with her comments..

It's not always written by the winners, but it's often manipulated.

I enjoy it every time the Crusades is brought up by the Right Wing in arguments with Muslims on Facebook.

I can't help but step in and say, if it weren't for the Mongols appearance, we in the West would have probably most likely had our asses handed to us by the Islamic world.

Only.. The Mongols did it for us, very few people seem to know about them. Or how close the entire Eurasian landmass came to being totally conquered by a group of nomadic herds people.

If not for poor succession laws, theres a chance we'd all be speaking Mongolian and be the worlds only Superpower Dual Continent.

I'm clearly not with it it all. I've just reread the conversation and I missed out a big chunk when I first read it.

Unfortunately facts can be twisted to suit your agenda. We see politicians do it all the time.

It's always sad how the contribution of other countries is never acknowledged enough when it comes to war. There is never one country that "wins". There is rarely even only two sides. Though in my eyes there are no victors in war but that's a whole other subject.

Now I'm going to keep out of discussions that require brainpower for now until I can attempt to be mostly coherent "

Sounds pretty coherent to me young one

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Now that's I've read the thread... I concur with much of what has been discussed.

GK, I do MOOCs. Free and opens up new avenues of learning and material.

"

I don't even know what that is, enlighten me please

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By *itonmyfacebookMan
over a year ago

Burton on Trent

Beyond actual dates History is all about interpretations of the past.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"Beyond actual dates History is all about interpretations of the past. "

And even dates are open to interpretation. Which calendar would you like to use?

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By *itonmyfacebookMan
over a year ago

Burton on Trent


"Beyond actual dates History is all about interpretations of the past. "

Any study of History beyond GCSE should involve a certain amount of writing your own interpretation of history using primary (first hand) historical documents: national census records, for instance. And an analysis of their strengths and weaknesses.

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By *itonmyfacebookMan
over a year ago

Burton on Trent

[Removed by poster at 20/10/19 18:01:52]

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By *itonmyfacebookMan
over a year ago

Burton on Trent


"Beyond actual dates History is all about interpretations of the past.

And even dates are open to interpretation. Which calendar would you like to use?

"

My son's CoD one, of course.

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