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So I have no problems in high risk takers having to carry their own health insurance, and pay according to the risks they choose to take.
Am gonna crawl back under my rock now to read the obits.
stay safe! xx | |||
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"I think it happens a lot now...if you are overweight and need surgery they will tell you lose weight...if you smoke they will tell you to pack up smoking. If someone is so overweight that is causing health prblems, then it might be cheaper for the NHS to do the op." I took the option of doing it myself as I had to lose a few stone before they would allow me the operation anyway.. They also told me there was a huge waiting list.. so.. after a few months of dieting and losing weight what was the point... My mum smoked 60 a day... and died from smoking related ailments. I just mean that if you choose to partake in a lifestyle that makes you a high risk.. then you should have to contribute more.. When I was doing a lot of motorsport I had private insurance.. as lets face it I was more at risk.. Cali | |||
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"is it worth having the argument that people with children are also a burden and how single people and those without children pick up the tab for their education too. We have been lucky in the UK that we have had since 1947 healthcare for all, free and available. Would I want to change that? No! Would I want to pay a little extra to guarantee it stays? Yes! However, deciding who pays what in a semi-privatised system would be a nightmare and we do not want to get to the state of people not seeking medical help because of the cost involved. Be grateful that you have the choice to go NHS or private and that there is always someone there to help in an emergency. " +1 | |||
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"is it worth having the argument that people with children are also a burden and how single people and those without children pick up the tab for their education too. We have been lucky in the UK that we have had since 1947 healthcare for all, free and available. Would I want to change that? No! Would I want to pay a little extra to guarantee it stays? Yes! However, deciding who pays what in a semi-privatised system would be a nightmare and we do not want to get to the state of people not seeking medical help because of the cost involved. Be grateful that you have the choice to go NHS or private and that there is always someone there to help in an emergency. +1" 
free at the point of delivery, a fundamental value as far as i am concerned. The fact is if you get a smoking/weight related illness the doctors expect you to play a part in your treatment, and have for many years.
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"I don't think I'd change things. To me you already have a dual system in some respects. For example my Mom got to jump the queue and have an operation privately because she had the health insurance. The irony was that she got the very same doctor she would have been treated by if she'd waited on the NHS. I don't think it would be practical for the NHS to take a life history and weigh up the pros and cons of whether your lifestyle has contributed to your ailments. They barely have time to listen now never mind sit on judgement of how you have ended up being ill. And what if you didn't agree that your lifestyle was to blame? Appeals could take ages and tie the NHS in knots. The fact is we already DO pay enormous amounts of money into the NHS. Was it one pound in four goes into it? The system has gigantic amounts of cash going into it and should be fit to serve all the people here. Should we do more to encourage people to look after themselves, quit smoking, exercise more and turn up for appointments? Sure but that's as far as I'd go. " Figure you've quoted is for health care as a proportion of public spending. The NHS is one of the most efficient health providers in Europe. In the US they spend 15% of GDP on healthcare (public and private) the figure for the UK is nearer 8% (public and private). Much of the gap in spending is because there aren't the leakages in the UK that you have in the US, with trillions being spent on insurance companies, assessment, policy limitation management and all the other that comes with a non universal system of provision. Want an example of what I mean? Let's take Cali's risky behaviour example. We reduce the range of NHS treatments for STI's, and start charging for the rest. Ms X presents to her GP with an STI. She is 19. When told it'll be £1250 for her treatment, she says, 'Ay, but I was raped and have never reported it because I'm traumatized.' Doctor says 'computer says no.' Ms X sues. She wins. Cost of her treatment is £15,000 to cover the cost of her lawyers and the court case. Add your own personal examples. Incidentally, we've tried something like this before. A Road Traffic Act of the late 60's introduced the idea of charging drivers a fee if they presented at A&E after an RTC; the money involved is a pain in the arse as hospitals struggle to collect it and farm the work out to debt collection agencies.... | |||
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"As much as I'd love the NHS in it's current guise to be scrapped completely and a new system put into place that places emphasis on HEALTH CARE, I know it won't happen. Not in my lifetime anyway. What I would like to see is people charged a booking fee for GP appointments but it is only collected if they fail to show up and not phone to cancel. I'd like to see chemists take back unused medicines for recycling and reduce the sheer quantity of new drugs from pharmaceutical companies. Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like. Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal! RTAs where you are the cause of it? Cough up pal! It bugs the hell out of me that I have to contribute to a system that so full of holes that it's leaking cash like a sieve and there's nothing I can do about it." Child birth where you were not raped...a choice surely...so cough up? People who refuse to abort disabled children...choosing to be a drain on resources...so cough up? Old people who trip and fall leaving the house...should have been more careful...so cough up? Self harmers, who are suffering from a serious mental illness...cough up? Failed suicides...cough up? Which lines are acceptable ? | |||
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"Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal!" Self harm is a self inflicted injury... but also a mental medical illness. Not everything is as black and white as people may think. Life would be so much simpler if it was... but I think kind of dull also! | |||
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"Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal! Self harm is a self inflicted injury... but also a mental medical illness. Not everything is as black and white as people may think. Life would be so much simpler if it was... but I think kind of dull also!" totally right, noone in their sane mind tried to kill themselves or self harms, people do it because they are at a point in their lifes where they are not coping and are suffering from some kind of mental illness so we turn them away and punish them for being ill? All because you cant see a ilness does not mean its not there | |||
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"Child birth where you were not raped...a choice surely...so cough up?" Is that self inflicted? "People who refuse to abort disabled children...choosing to be a drain on resources...so cough up?" Is that self inflicted? " Old people who trip and fall leaving the house...should have been more careful...so cough up?" Is that self inflicted? " Self harmers, who are suffering from a serious mental illness...cough up?" Is that self inflicted to the point where they were mentally aware of what they were doing? " Failed suicides...cough up??" Is that self inflicted to the point that they knew what they were doing? I'm talking about people who go mountain climbing, base jumping, bunjee jumping, sailing across the fookin Atlantic in a frigging canoe fgs. Those kind of extreme ativities that are likely to cause injury. Or people who drive their cars at 100mph and crash it. Or get pissed, start a fight and get pummelled to crap on a Saturday night in town. Those sorts of self inflicted injuries that could easily be avoided - those sorts of injuries should be chargeable but not under the NHS as it is now where N.I. payments *should* cater for anything you'd need a health service for, but it doesn't work like that does it. Doctors can play god and withhold treatment if they feel you are being detrimental to your own well-being (smoking, drinking, drug-taking), but hey, throw yourself off a building and land awkwardly (base jumping) and Joe Public will foot the bill! | |||
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"As much as I'd love the NHS in it's current guise to be scrapped completely and a new system put into place that places emphasis on HEALTH CARE, I know it won't happen. Not in my lifetime anyway. What I would like to see is people charged a booking fee for GP appointments but it is only collected if they fail to show up and not phone to cancel. I'd like to see chemists take back unused medicines for recycling and reduce the sheer quantity of new drugs from pharmaceutical companies. Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like. Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal! RTAs where you are the cause of it? Cough up pal! It bugs the hell out of me that I have to contribute to a system that so full of holes that it's leaking cash like a sieve and there's nothing I can do about it." The trouble is it's not leaking money like a sieve. It's twice as efficient as the US system, and delivers a much less wide variation in outcomes and standards than the US. The irony involved in charging people a fee if they're too sick to turn up for a GPs appointment may have escaped you - it tickled me. You're right about the harm big pharma does with the drugs bill, but if you do switch off their revenues, you'll have to be prepared to fund more research directly. | |||
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"Child birth where you were not raped...a choice surely...so cough up? Is that self inflicted? People who refuse to abort disabled children...choosing to be a drain on resources...so cough up? Is that self inflicted? Old people who trip and fall leaving the house...should have been more careful...so cough up? Is that self inflicted? Self harmers, who are suffering from a serious mental illness...cough up? Is that self inflicted to the point where they were mentally aware of what they were doing? Failed suicides...cough up?? Is that self inflicted to the point that they knew what they were doing? I'm talking about people who go mountain climbing, base jumping, bunjee jumping, sailing across the fookin Atlantic in a frigging canoe fgs. Those kind of extreme ativities that are likely to cause injury. Or people who drive their cars at 100mph and crash it. Or get pissed, start a fight and get pummelled to crap on a Saturday night in town. Those sorts of self inflicted injuries that could easily be avoided - those sorts of injuries should be chargeable but not under the NHS as it is now where N.I. payments *should* cater for anything you'd need a health service for, but it doesn't work like that does it. Doctors can play god and withhold treatment if they feel you are being detrimental to your own well-being (smoking, drinking, drug-taking), but hey, throw yourself off a building and land awkwardly (base jumping) and Joe Public will foot the bill!" The point i was trying to make is that your defintion of self inflicted applies only to you... | |||
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"As much as I'd love the NHS in it's current guise to be scrapped completely and a new system put into place that places emphasis on HEALTH CARE, I know it won't happen. Not in my lifetime anyway. What I would like to see is people charged a booking fee for GP appointments but it is only collected if they fail to show up and not phone to cancel. I'd like to see chemists take back unused medicines for recycling and reduce the sheer quantity of new drugs from pharmaceutical companies. Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like. Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal! RTAs where you are the cause of it? Cough up pal! It bugs the hell out of me that I have to contribute to a system that so full of holes that it's leaking cash like a sieve and there's nothing I can do about it." You know that horrible current system you want to see scrapped, with all the pointless managers and backroom staff? Well they are all there because of ideas like yours. The instant you have a transfer of money from A to B for care with contracts you suddenly need an awful lot of accountants, finance staff, lawyers (almost all well paid) plus a whole management team for them who are even better paid and then directors for these services who are paid even more still to take the fall/make decisions. Thats what happens more and more every time a little bit of privatisation creeps in. | |||
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"Great point Sarah. Wishy where on earth have you dredged up the idea that the NHS is being bankrupted by "base jumpers, mountain climbers and people who row across the Atlantic"?? That is completely bizarre. One question I'd have for you. Presumably you'd be in favour of all school rugby, football, cricket and hockey teams having to fork out for private health insurance as their dangerous pastimes could put a strain on the NHS?" Where have I said the NHS was being bankrupted by people who take part in hazardous sports? Please point out where I said that precisely. I am in favour of a system of healthcare where those that take part in hazardous activities, through their own choice, pay for any healthcare they need as a result of those activities. Not people who have suffered injury through no fault of their own going about their daily lives. Nor those who are disabled in some way via accident of birth, or those deemed mentally ill who cannot take responsibility for their actions. | |||
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"Great point Sarah. Wishy where on earth have you dredged up the idea that the NHS is being bankrupted by "base jumpers, mountain climbers and people who row across the Atlantic"?? That is completely bizarre. One question I'd have for you. Presumably you'd be in favour of all school rugby, football, cricket and hockey teams having to fork out for private health insurance as their dangerous pastimes could put a strain on the NHS? Where have I said the NHS was being bankrupted by people who take part in hazardous sports? Please point out where I said that precisely. I am in favour of a system of healthcare where those that take part in hazardous activities, through their own choice, pay for any healthcare they need as a result of those activities. Not people who have suffered injury through no fault of their own going about their daily lives. Nor those who are disabled in some way via accident of birth, or those deemed mentally ill who cannot take responsibility for their actions." you said people who inflicted their own injuries should be made to pay...if people choose to take part in sport and that lads to injury by your reasoning then ppl shoulfd pay... i think you are missing the philosophical point many of us have tried to make though, once some are excluded from the nhs because of lifetyle decisions then where will the line be drawn. To go back to the lifetyle choice of having a baby... the cost of a midwife...(from journal of midwifery) antenatal, £287.60, birth £240.90 postnatal £470.84 These do not include home births, caersians ect, or the other costs just for the midwife... So the coat of the midwife is £1000.34 last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds just for the cost of one midwife...for a lifestyle choice... Not sure how much bungee jumpers cost the Uk but i am sure it is a lot less.  | |||
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"you said people who inflicted their own injuries should be made to pay...if people choose to take part in sport and that lads to injury by your reasoning then ppl shoulfd pay... i think you are missing the philosophical point many of us have tried to make though, once some are excluded from the nhs because of lifetyle decisions then where will the line be drawn. To go back to the lifetyle choice of having a baby... the cost of a midwife...(from journal of midwifery) antenatal, £287.60, birth £240.90 postnatal £470.84 These do not include home births, caersians ect, or the other costs just for the midwife... So the coat of the midwife is £1000.34 last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds just for the cost of one midwife...for a lifestyle choice... Not sure how much bungee jumpers cost the Uk but i am sure it is a lot less. "What I said was: "As much as I'd love the NHS in it's current guise to be scrapped completely and a new system put into place that places emphasis on HEALTH CARE, I know it won't happen. Not in my lifetime anyway. What I would like to see is people charged a booking fee for GP appointments but it is only collected if they fail to show up and not phone to cancel. I'd like to see chemists take back unused medicines for recycling and reduce the sheer quantity of new drugs from pharmaceutical companies. Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like." Now nowhere in there did I say that ALL sportspersons should have to pay for their treatment. I said those engaged in hazardous activities. How does one midwife cost £708m?? Do you want to rethink your maths there? | |||
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"It'd just be too difficult to implement. If football is ok, and mountain climbing isn't, what about ice skating? Horse riding? Do we want to spend NHS money fighting legal battles over what constitutes a dangerous activity? That's what would likely happen. " My point precisely. As soon as you move away from universal provision you increase costs, and if those changes allow lawyers to get involved you increase costs exponentially. | |||
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"So what constitutes a dangerous activity? From a cost point of _iew, smoking, drinking and unhealthy eating/overeating are the biggest drains on the NHS so perhaps we should start with those activities before we move onto activities that have a proven health benefit - such as cycling, hill walking, playing football/rugby etc... " I'm 46 and have smoked most of my life, yet I have never stayed overnight in hospital apart from the first few days of my life when it was almost mandatory for women to stay in for five days or more. I've worked damned hard these past 25 years so I think I've paid for any healthcare I'll need later in life, so I'll have a drink and a smoke to celebrate that. Ta. Ok, that was flippant. I recognise that the elderly, the infirm and the weak in our society cannot contribute as much as the fit, healthy and strong, and so need to be assisted in some way, be that financially or with heathcare paid for by others. I know that, and I support that ideaology. What I do not support is a system that for some inexplicable reason cannot utilise technology to have a central ordering database that ensures that all NHS facilities order the goods and products they need from a central system at a cost effective price instead of the absolutely ludicrous system we have now where rubber gloves can cost £300 per box in one hospital and £10.50 in another. The NHS has turned into something so huge that it simply swallows up cash without any idea of where it being spent. THAT'S the NHS I want scrapped. Strip away the layers of administration and bureaucracy and introduce a system of dual Healthcare where those that can, pay more than those who can't, but those who do don't end up being shunted down the list in favour of those who don't. The healthy can get back to work quicker than those who have long term health problems, and thus contribute to the system again. Would it shock you to realise that neothilic man took his share of the food first because the hunter needed his strength to fight and survive and to kill prey to feed the tribe. The fittest were kept fit so that all could benefit. | |||
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"you said people who inflicted their own injuries should be made to pay...if people choose to take part in sport and that lads to injury by your reasoning then ppl shoulfd pay... i think you are missing the philosophical point many of us have tried to make though, once some are excluded from the nhs because of lifetyle decisions then where will the line be drawn. To go back to the lifetyle choice of having a baby... the cost of a midwife...(from journal of midwifery) antenatal, £287.60, birth £240.90 postnatal £470.84 These do not include home births, caersians ect, or the other costs just for the midwife... So the coat of the midwife is £1000.34 last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds just for the cost of one midwife...for a lifestyle choice... Not sure how much bungee jumpers cost the Uk but i am sure it is a lot less.
What I said was: "As much as I'd love the NHS in it's current guise to be scrapped completely and a new system put into place that places emphasis on HEALTH CARE, I know it won't happen. Not in my lifetime anyway.
What I would like to see is people charged a booking fee for GP appointments but it is only collected if they fail to show up and not phone to cancel. I'd like to see chemists take back unused medicines for recycling and reduce the sheer quantity of new drugs from pharmaceutical companies.
Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like."
Now nowhere in there did I say that ALL sportspersons should have to pay for their treatment. I said those engaged in hazardous activities.
How does one midwife cost £708m?? Do you want to rethink your maths there?"do you want to reread my maths...  | |||
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"do you want to reread my maths... ""last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds ***just for the cost of one midwife***"?????? | |||
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"do you want to reread my maths...
"last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds ***just for the cost of one midwife***"??????"per birth | |||
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" Fittest |= Healthiest. How often do we hear of fit sportspeople, usually men, dropping down dead in no time. " ...and how many people suffering from obesity-led heart problems drop each week? Considering the numbers of people involved with activities each week then it's no wonder a statistical anomaly reaches the news. I had a heart scare last year, full blues-and-twos job. Ambulance machine siad i was having a heart attack so off to Manchester Royal i was whisked. Turns out i had a mild chest infection and a reaction to ibuprofen. Added to that my extremely low resting heart rate - 44bpm as opposed to the UK average of around 70bpm - and i fooled the machine! I'm still far less likely to die of heart disease than a similar person of my age who is overweight and/or smokes. | |||
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"do you want to reread my maths...
"last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds ***just for the cost of one midwife***"??????
per birth "£708m per birth? Isn't it more like £1k per birth? I've had three children so that's £3k, never stayed overnight in hossie myself but the kids have had jabs etc so add another couple of £k to that. I've more than paid for my kid's healthcare to date. If it all costs as much as you say it does then I've paid for other people's kid's healthcare too, it seems. | |||
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"So what constitutes a dangerous activity? From a cost point of _iew, smoking, drinking and unhealthy eating/overeating are the biggest drains on the NHS so perhaps we should start with those activities before we move onto activities that have a proven health benefit - such as cycling, hill walking, playing football/rugby etc... I'm 46 and have smoked most of my life, yet I have never stayed overnight in hospital apart from the first few days of my life when it was almost mandatory for women to stay in for five days or more. I've worked damned hard these past 25 years so I think I've paid for any healthcare I'll need later in life, so I'll have a drink and a smoke to celebrate that. Ta. Ok, that was flippant. I recognise that the elderly, the infirm and the weak in our society cannot contribute as much as the fit, healthy and strong, and so need to be assisted in some way, be that financially or with heathcare paid for by others. I know that, and I support that ideaology. What I do not support is a system that for some inexplicable reason cannot utilise technology to have a central ordering database that ensures that all NHS facilities order the goods and products they need from a central system at a cost effective price instead of the absolutely ludicrous system we have now where rubber gloves can cost £300 per box in one hospital and £10.50 in another. The NHS has turned into something so huge that it simply swallows up cash without any idea of where it being spent. THAT'S the NHS I want scrapped. Strip away the layers of administration and bureaucracy and introduce a system of dual Healthcare where those that can, pay more than those who can't, but those who do don't end up being shunted down the list in favour of those who don't. The healthy can get back to work quicker than those who have long term health problems, and thus contribute to the system again. Would it shock you to realise that neothilic man took his share of the food first because the hunter needed his strength to fight and survive and to kill prey to feed the tribe. The fittest were kept fit so that all could benefit." Honestly did you not read what I put higher up about why there's the layers of administration? Having a 2 tiered system will not make it better only worse and I do not believe for a second a single box of gloves cost £300 I know the NHS gets ripped off but no one would pay that unless it was an emergency (and central ordering would just make delays more likely) | |||
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"So what constitutes a dangerous activity? From a cost point of _iew, smoking, drinking and unhealthy eating/overeating are the biggest drains on the NHS so perhaps we should start with those activities before we move onto activities that have a proven health benefit - such as cycling, hill walking, playing football/rugby etc... I'm 46 and have smoked most of my life, yet I have never stayed overnight in hospital apart from the first few days of my life when it was almost mandatory for women to stay in for five days or more. I've worked damned hard these past 25 years so I think I've paid for any healthcare I'll need later in life, so I'll have a drink and a smoke to celebrate that. Ta. Ok, that was flippant. I recognise that the elderly, the infirm and the weak in our society cannot contribute as much as the fit, healthy and strong, and so need to be assisted in some way, be that financially or with heathcare paid for by others. I know that, and I support that ideaology. What I do not support is a system that for some inexplicable reason cannot utilise technology to have a central ordering database that ensures that all NHS facilities order the goods and products they need from a central system at a cost effective price instead of the absolutely ludicrous system we have now where rubber gloves can cost £300 per box in one hospital and £10.50 in another. The NHS has turned into something so huge that it simply swallows up cash without any idea of where it being spent. THAT'S the NHS I want scrapped. Strip away the layers of administration and bureaucracy and introduce a system of dual Healthcare where those that can, pay more than those who can't, but those who do don't end up being shunted down the list in favour of those who don't. The healthy can get back to work quicker than those who have long term health problems, and thus contribute to the system again. Would it shock you to realise that neothilic man took his share of the food first because the hunter needed his strength to fight and survive and to kill prey to feed the tribe. The fittest were kept fit so that all could benefit." Twice I've pointed out that the NHS is twice as efficent as the American mixed market, and twice you've ignored it. Any reason why? | |||
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"So what constitutes a dangerous activity? From a cost point of _iew, smoking, drinking and unhealthy eating/overeating are the biggest drains on the NHS so perhaps we should start with those activities before we move onto activities that have a proven health benefit - such as cycling, hill walking, playing football/rugby etc... I'm 46 and have smoked most of my life, yet I have never stayed overnight in hospital apart from the first few days of my life when it was almost mandatory for women to stay in for five days or more. I've worked damned hard these past 25 years so I think I've paid for any healthcare I'll need later in life, so I'll have a drink and a smoke to celebrate that. Ta. Ok, that was flippant. I recognise that the elderly, the infirm and the weak in our society cannot contribute as much as the fit, healthy and strong, and so need to be assisted in some way, be that financially or with heathcare paid for by others. I know that, and I support that ideaology. What I do not support is a system that for some inexplicable reason cannot utilise technology to have a central ordering database that ensures that all NHS facilities order the goods and products they need from a central system at a cost effective price instead of the absolutely ludicrous system we have now where rubber gloves can cost £300 per box in one hospital and £10.50 in another. The NHS has turned into something so huge that it simply swallows up cash without any idea of where it being spent. THAT'S the NHS I want scrapped. Strip away the layers of administration and bureaucracy and introduce a system of dual Healthcare where those that can, pay more than those who can't, but those who do don't end up being shunted down the list in favour of those who don't. The healthy can get back to work quicker than those who have long term health problems, and thus contribute to the system again. Would it shock you to realise that neothilic man took his share of the food first because the hunter needed his strength to fight and survive and to kill prey to feed the tribe. The fittest were kept fit so that all could benefit." That's the worst piece of made up anthropology I've ever read. If the men get first share of the food it would seem to me, in a finite resources model, to be a very poor survival strategy, since the men would survive, but the women and children wouldn't. There's probably one word you can use for family groups that follow those tactics. Extinct. | |||
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"They way people go on you'd think that BUPA are rubbing their hands with glee to take on smokers the overweight, etc. BUPA are like a health club, they want rich people to pay their subs and not use the facilities. The fact when push comes to shove, the NHS will treat you in a emergency anyway, because they have the equipment and expertise. How many private hospitals have A+E's. " +1 Add to the fact that if things go wrong or you need critical care in a private hospital you'll be dropped back into the NHS as soon as possible! | |||
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"That's the worst piece of made up anthropology I've ever read. If the men get first share of the food it would seem to me, in a finite resources model, to be a very poor survival strategy, since the men would survive, but the women and children wouldn't. There's probably one word you can use for family groups that follow those tactics. Extinct." Go and research it then. Have a look for lions and how a pride operates. Go on, see if you can find out if the alpha lion takes his share first. We were no different. Why don't you ever back up what you say instead of simply disputing it? | |||
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"Twice I've pointed out that the NHS is twice as efficent as the American mixed market, and twice you've ignored it. Any reason why?" I'm not in fookin America, that's why. Their system doesn't apply to me but our inefficient, badly run NHS does. | |||
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"You will always find someone who knocks the NHS, goes on about how much it costs, the waste, how they would opt out of it if they could etc...etc. Until they or someone close to them need it all of a sudden....then you won't hear them bleating about it." | |||
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"Twice I've pointed out that the NHS is twice as efficent as the American mixed market, and twice you've ignored it. Any reason why? I'm not in fookin America, that's why. Their system doesn't apply to me but our inefficient, badly run NHS does." But it is efficient, it's more efficient than the USA, France and Germany, we suffer limited fraud and have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? Your point about comparing us to lions... Doesn't work, we're not lions, bonobo chimps, chimpanzee's, gorillas or meerkats would be better models, we're altruistic. | |||
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"You will always find someone who knocks the NHS, goes on about how much it costs, the waste, how they would opt out of it if they could etc...etc. Until they or someone close to them need it all of a sudden....then you won't hear them bleating about it." We had to use the NHS for the birth of our daughter this month due to a lack of a credible alternative (I don't have private healthcare but when my business is up and running it's first on my list cos it's tax deductable), but Siren was treated appallingly, and we've put in a very strongly worded letter of complaint. Was it worth the N.I. contribs we've both paid? Not in a million years, but then I suppose that's the Tories fault for making cuts eh? We're a Labour held ward here and they've made the required cuts that Westminster dictated they should make but they've cut front line services because that's what the media will pick up on, when they could have cut the same amount in natural wastage - but there's no political mileage in that, is there. | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?" My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. | |||
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"The thing about the NHS and the treatment that people receive, is that you never know when you, your wife or your children will need that care...and before you go on about being a smoker all your life and never spent a night in a hospital....NO-ONE, not even the most intense NHS sceptic in the country, EVER knows what is around the corner. There could come a time, could be tomorrow for all you know, when god forbid, you or one of your children will need the expertice and dedication that a NHS hospital may have to administer to you or one of your loved ones. I'm guessing you wouldn't be on here applauding their care however good it was though.....doesn't fit in with your narrow minded _iew of the NHS. " +1 | |||
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"That's the worst piece of made up anthropology I've ever read. If the men get first share of the food it would seem to me, in a finite resources model, to be a very poor survival strategy, since the men would survive, but the women and children wouldn't. There's probably one word you can use for family groups that follow those tactics. Extinct. Go and research it then. Have a look for lions and how a pride operates. Go on, see if you can find out if the alpha lion takes his share first. We were no different. Why don't you ever back up what you say instead of simply disputing it?" Were we? Lions operate in small populations that are self limiting, meaning they have unlimited resources. A better archetype for how neolithic hunter gatherers might have operated is the elephant, who live in matriarchal clans and protect their young in a way diametrically opposed to the behaviour of lions. You may be making a mistake of comparing the survival strategies of apex predators, like lions, with the survival strategies of animals a long way down the food chain, like primates. Priemats need to be much more adaptive than predators like lions. | |||
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"You will always find someone who knocks the NHS, goes on about how much it costs, the waste, how they would opt out of it if they could etc...etc. Until they or someone close to them need it all of a sudden....then you won't hear them bleating about it. We had to use the NHS for the birth of our daughter this month due to a lack of a credible alternative (I don't have private healthcare but when my business is up and running it's first on my list cos it's tax deductable), but Siren was treated appallingly, and we've put in a very strongly worded letter of complaint. Was it worth the N.I. contribs we've both paid? Not in a million years, but then I suppose that's the Tories fault for making cuts eh? We're a Labour held ward here and they've made the required cuts that Westminster dictated they should make but they've cut front line services because that's what the media will pick up on, when they could have cut the same amount in natural wastage - but there's no political mileage in that, is there." Why do you think NI funds the NHS? | |||
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"The thing about the NHS and the treatment that people receive, is that you never know when you, your wife or your children will need that care...and before you go on about being a smoker all your life and never spent a night in a hospital....NO-ONE, not even the most intense NHS sceptic in the country, EVER knows what is around the corner. There could come a time, could be tomorrow for all you know, when god forbid, you or one of your children will need the expertice and dedication that a NHS hospital may have to administer to you or one of your loved ones. I'm guessing you wouldn't be on here applauding their care however good it was though.....doesn't fit in with your narrow minded _iew of the NHS. " | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire." There has never been more opportunity in the UK to sue the NHS, more often than not on a no win no fee basis, so if there is a case to answer a half decent law firm will establish that and sue on your families behalf.... | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire." First thing i'm sorry to hear about your Aunty. There are always going to be patient experiences where sadly the system in my opinion fails the patient. This is always sadly going to happen with the number of patients who access the NHS every day in my opinion. It doesnt make it right, regardless of how you try an make something perfect. But again in my opinion the NHS does far more good than bad and this country would be a far worst place without it! | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire." Would it make a difference if you did? You've made your case. You've ducked the important statistics, like how efficient the NHS is, and you've explained, quite bravely, why you are so prejudiced about the NHS. Move on. | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. There has never been more opportunity in the UK to sue the NHS, more often than not on a no win no fee basis, so if there is a case to answer a half decent law firm will establish that and sue on your families behalf.... " My uncle, who is not my blood relative, decided not to pursue any negligence claims. We as the wider family have no recourse in the matter without his agreement. | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. Would it make a difference if you did? You've made your case. You've ducked the important statistics, like how efficient the NHS is, and you've explained, quite bravely, why you are so prejudiced about the NHS. Move on." I'm not privvy to the inner workings of the NHS and neither are you. Any of us can only form an opinion of it based upon our experiences of it. My experiences of the NHS have been consistently poor and on that basis I'd scrap it in a heartbeat. | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. Would it make a difference if you did? You've made your case. You've ducked the important statistics, like how efficient the NHS is, and you've explained, quite bravely, why you are so prejudiced about the NHS. Move on. I'm not privvy to the inner workings of the NHS and neither are you. Any of us can only form an opinion of it based upon our experiences of it. My experiences of the NHS have been consistently poor and on that basis I'd scrap it in a heartbeat." Well I do have knowledge of it thankyou and what you describe is only a very tiny part of the whole. I am very sorry for your loss but these things happen and they happen everywhere. Ever read stories of American healthcare? What would you replace it with? Most Trusts have public governors these days and use groups why don't you join one of those and have a useful input? | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire." So you show that your feelings are not impartial and despite the fact all operations carry a risk have condemned the entire health service. Yhis is a large part of the reason i avoid politics threads, people think anecdotes are evidence, and even then fail to give details which could give weight to their argument...so which private hospital was the new baby born in? | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. So you show that your feelings are not impartial and despite the fact all operations carry a risk have condemned the entire health service. Yhis is a large part of the reason i avoid politics threads, people think anecdotes are evidence, and even then fail to give details which could give weight to their argument...so which private hospital was the new baby born in?"
I forgot to mention about the inherent risks of surgery no matter how routine. | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. So you show that your feelings are not impartial and despite the fact all operations carry a risk have condemned the entire health service. Yhis is a large part of the reason i avoid politics threads, people think anecdotes are evidence, and even then fail to give details which could give weight to their argument...so which private hospital was the new baby born in?
I forgot to mention about the inherent risks of surgery no matter how routine."or the fact only the next of kin will have been given the report into her death...which may be the reason he is not pursuing any claim. | |||
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"or the fact only the next of kin will have been given the report into her death...which may be the reason he is not pursuing any claim." You don't know my uncle and I'm not giving any more info on it than I already have. Suffice it to say that none of were surprised by his decision. All were dismayed by it though. | |||
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"So you show that your feelings are not impartial and despite the fact all operations carry a risk have condemned the entire health service. Yhis is a large part of the reason i avoid politics threads, people think anecdotes are evidence, and even then fail to give details which could give weight to their argument...so which private hospital was the new baby born in?" As I've already stated earlier on the thread, my opinion of the NHS was formed by my experience of it. Why are you trying to browbeat me into changing my opinion to one that you find more agreeable? You have more chance of impaling yourself on a unicorn. | |||
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"I stopped reading this thread as I found it thoroughly disappointing to see how very insular most people are. Where have the peeps gone who have an interest in our country as a community, moving forward together, holding in mind the health of all of our citizens, the encouragement children who are the future of our country and our culture and indeed our world, and family values. I just don't get any of this, just a me me me, feeling reading most of the posts." | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with." What an easy solution. | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with." I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? " Stop putting in technocrats and faqing accountants to run em and get some hands on managers. | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? Stop putting in technocrats and faqing accountants to run em and get some hands on managers." For that you need to get rid of the internal market and have a culture change | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? Stop putting in technocrats and faqing accountants to run em and get some hands on managers. For that you need to get rid of the internal market and have a culture change" reads just as well the other way, get rid of the internal culture and have a market change.  | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? " You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid. | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with." You might look at it another way if you or yours were put in a situation where you didn't have adequate private health insurance for a particular medical procedure..... | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid." don't worry, a lot of us are afraid of hospitals. Maybe try some therapy? | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid. don't worry, a lot of us are afraid of hospitals. Maybe try some therapy?" Sorry....you lost me with that one | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. There has never been more opportunity in the UK to sue the NHS, more often than not on a no win no fee basis, so if there is a case to answer a half decent law firm will establish that and sue on your families behalf.... My uncle, who is not my blood relative, decided not to pursue any negligence claims. We as the wider family have no recourse in the matter without his agreement." all operations carry a risk even straight forward ones especially if a general anaestetic is required. Another point about the NHS and private medicine is that private providers won't even attempt some of the procedures that carry a higher risk and leave those to the NHS | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? Stop putting in technocrats and faqing accountants to run em and get some hands on managers. For that you need to get rid of the internal market and have a culture change reads just as well the other way, get rid of the internal culture and have a market change. "LOL love it! Not quite the same meaning but still awesome | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. There has never been more opportunity in the UK to sue the NHS, more often than not on a no win no fee basis, so if there is a case to answer a half decent law firm will establish that and sue on your families behalf.... My uncle, who is not my blood relative, decided not to pursue any negligence claims. We as the wider family have no recourse in the matter without his agreement. all operations carry a risk even straight forward ones especially if a general anaestetic is required. Another point about the NHS and private medicine is that private providers won't even attempt some of the procedures that carry a higher risk and leave those to the NHS" pertinent indeed. | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid." Exactly....that could happen anyway where it involves humans...BUT, you just assume they will all have been taught the same things  | |||
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"It's a system designed to help those who need it and not to pass judgement. I pay my fair share of NI, seldom use the docs and have no issues with those, even smokers (they've usually contributed enough through smoking taxes to offset their health costs!) The amount people receive in benefits however.... Thanks labour "How dare those benefit recipients even dream about using the same NHS facilities as you.... | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with." the NHS today is completely different to how it was at its inception and has been overhauled so many times its getting pretty punchd*unk | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid. Exactly....that could happen anyway where it involves humans...BUT, you just assume they will all have been taught the same things "each medical school has it's own approach to teaching - so long as they meet the GMCs requirements | |||
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"well i have been working all my life im now 46 i was relativley fit until i broke my ankle playing football and thanks to the wonderfull nhs i had mrsa after they cocked up my op ,it was 13 yrs ago and it took 5 months to get rid of it ,so if i am overwhieght or anything else the nhs could save money by cleaning the hospitals properly not by charging obese or smokers anyone agree with me ?" think this one comes under what happens when you introduce profit making companies into the nhs in this case the cleaning contracts, so is the nhs to blame or the private cleaning company? | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid. Exactly....that could happen anyway where it involves humans...BUT, you just assume they will all have been taught the same things
each medical school has it's own approach to teaching - so long as they meet the GMCs requirements"I would imagine they are taught the basics | |||
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"well i have been working all my life im now 46 i was relativley fit until i broke my ankle playing football and thanks to the wonderfull nhs i had mrsa after they cocked up my op ,it was 13 yrs ago and it took 5 months to get rid of it ,so if i am overwhieght or anything else the nhs could save money by cleaning the hospitals properly not by charging obese or smokers anyone agree with me ?" my cousin died of mrsa and as has been said it was trying to save monet that caused the problem in the first place - and mrsa is often taken into the hospital by the patients themselve | |||
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"It's a system designed to help those who need it and not to pass judgement. I pay my fair share of NI, seldom use the docs and have no issues with those, even smokers (they've usually contributed enough through smoking taxes to offset their health costs!) The amount people receive in benefits however.... Thanks labour "NI does not pay for the nhs | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with. I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up. Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening? You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid. Exactly....that could happen anyway where it involves humans...BUT, you just assume they will all have been taught the same things
each medical school has it's own approach to teaching - so long as they meet the GMCs requirements
I would imagine they are taught the basics "then you would be right | |||
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"well i have been working all my life im now 46 i was relativley fit until i broke my ankle playing football and thanks to the wonderfull nhs i had mrsa after they cocked up my op ,it was 13 yrs ago and it took 5 months to get rid of it ,so if i am overwhieght or anything else the nhs could save money by cleaning the hospitals properly not by charging obese or smokers anyone agree with me ? think this one comes under what happens when you introduce profit making companies into the nhs in this case the cleaning contracts, so is the nhs to blame or the private cleaning company?" It used to be called hospital acquired infection, and has always existed...the problem id ppl think they are immortal | |||
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"well i have been working all my life im now 46 i was relativley fit until i broke my ankle playing football and thanks to the wonderfull nhs i had mrsa after they cocked up my op ,it was 13 yrs ago and it took 5 months to get rid of it ,so if i am overwhieght or anything else the nhs could save money by cleaning the hospitals properly not by charging obese or smokers anyone agree with me ?" Having worked in various London hospitals in the 90's, including those that had instances of MRSA amongst patients.....no I don't agree with you. A hospital visitor, having washed and alcohol gelled their hands even at multiple points before they reach the ward they are visiting....only needs to generate and discharge the tiniest amount of mucus to potentially infect the whole ward.....or a waiting room....or a hospital shop....or a nurses station. MRSA infection occurs in private hospitals as often as it does in NHS hospitals, people don't have to be ill to carry MRSA, most people will never know they are themselves carriers when they go into hospital as patients. Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. | |||
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"Since we are being anecdotal... my eldest was born with a cleft palate,we stayed in hospital a week as he was tested for other abnormalities, including a full dna screening, heart, brain, liver, kidney,and lung scans. The midwives and specialist cleft team nurse were all 100% supportive of my desire to try to breast feed and i used the dedicated breast pumps ...all free When we left hospital we had daily visits from the special care midwives, as well as specialist support from the cleft team nurse...who became our rock,available at any time.,,all free For 8 weeks i expressed my milk using an nhs breast pump and bottles supplied by the nhs(cleft babies need special bottles) ...all free At 8 months he had his first operation, the first of four...all free Through cleft palate sites we have made american friends, some begging for bottles as their health insurance wont cover it, others unable to get an operation for their child, as the insurance defines it as a pre existing condition, others whose babies have malnutrition because the lack of specialists means doctors have told them not to wean their child in case it chokes.. Of course the fact we treated those trying to help us with reapect may have meant we got treated with respect back " Great post.... | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. " Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward. | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward." They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe... Does one tap make a filthy ward? | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward." so what you seem to be saying the parts of the NHS which are failing is the parts being run by the private sector - so by your logic if it was all privatised their would be complete meltdown in the "NHS" | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward." Sadly bacteria can live anywhere and the insistence of ill informed ppl to have antibiotics ,and their failure to take them properly has made the problem worse. | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward. so what you seem to be saying the parts of the NHS which are failing is the parts being run by the private sector - so by your logic if it was all privatised their would be complete meltdown in the "NHS"" expecting logic at this point is i think futile...the words as you sow so shall you reap do come to mind though | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward. They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe... Does one tap make a filthy ward?" Dont they have to check the water supply for such things on a regular basis? | |||
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"well i have been working all my life im now 46 i was relativley fit until i broke my ankle playing football and thanks to the wonderfull nhs i had mrsa after they cocked up my op ,it was 13 yrs ago and it took 5 months to get rid of it ,so if i am overwhieght or anything else the nhs could save money by cleaning the hospitals properly not by charging obese or smokers anyone agree with me ?" well lets not treat people who put themselves and their bodies in jeopardy by playing sport then eh? | |||
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"I used the private health system and NHS. 14 years ago, i should first signs of bowl cancer. The then doctors decided to push me out of the door, by just saying the i was wasting their time. But to prove i was wasting their time, was going to be given a CT scan. The latter never arrived and I just went on as bormal. Hit 30 and 3 days, I started to get pains, bleedingh etc. went to A and E. samething just wasting their time. I go to work, fall ill. Go home see GP ask to be refferd to BUPA, two days later she the a Doctor. tell him my story, sends me for a MRI scan, two hours later, tells me what i have what needs to be done and gives me a complete appointment for chemo, etc and operations dates. I think the NHS departments work in different ways. If you just have a normal illlness with no signs of heart failure for example. So the is no one select department then you get a bad deal. If got cancer of the bowl etc, then that side of NHS is does really well. Horses for courses really. More detailed illness, the more a doctor has an interested, but if you have no defined illness, then it be a real heart ache to get anything done. Ian " 14 years ago and you will have met the results of the cut in nursing and doctor places Thatcher put in | |||
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"TYPICAL RESPONCE FROM anyone that works in the nhs they were saying that people brought mrsa in with them 13 yrs ago and they are no further forward now and tell me why holland has 5,000 cases of mrsa compared to 50,000 in the uk holland is ten times the size but thet steam clean any bed once anyone has any contagious disease you are all brainwashed by the goverment into beliving what you said ,BRING BACK MATRONS never had so many superbugs in the 60s did we?" no because super bugs are caused by anti biotic resistant strains. If we paid the tax of the dutch then yes we could have the ward numbers they have, but we wont | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward. They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe... Does one tap make a filthy ward?Dont they have to check the water supply for such things on a regular basis?" One would think that something as vital as a clean water supply would checked more than once daily. When visiting Siren and our daughter in hospital recently I was continually told to wash my hands before touching the baby, yet those poor babies on that ward were killed by the very thing that was supposed to ensure cleanliness. What irks me even more are the people on here who have tried to excuse that disgusting ward by inferring that disease is bound to occur and that the patients themselves introduce MRSA to the ward. How so, when those babies never even got the chance to leave hospital to get themselves infected with it. The NHS has got serious failings yet some people seem quite happy to write off preventable deaths as 'well, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette'. The NHS needs doing away with and replaced by a healthcare system that enforces cleanliness with an unbending rigidity, and gets rid of imcompetent nurses and doctors no matter how short fucking staffed they are. | |||
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" NI does not pay for the nhs" Indeed, National Insurance is folded into general taxation. Mind you it was a handy ruse for Gordon Brown to use to increase taxation without raising "tax rates". | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward. They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe... Does one tap make a filthy ward?Dont they have to check the water supply for such things on a regular basis? One would think that something as vital as a clean water supply would checked more than once daily. When visiting Siren and our daughter in hospital recently I was continually told to wash my hands before touching the baby, yet those poor babies on that ward were killed by the very thing that was supposed to ensure cleanliness. What irks me even more are the people on here who have tried to excuse that disgusting ward by inferring that disease is bound to occur and that the patients themselves introduce MRSA to the ward. How so, when those babies never even got the chance to leave hospital to get themselves infected with it. The NHS has got serious failings yet some people seem quite happy to write off preventable deaths as 'well, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette'. The NHS needs doing away with and replaced by a healthcare system that enforces cleanliness with an unbending rigidity, and gets rid of imcompetent nurses and doctors no matter how short fucking staffed they are. " i am amazed at any hospital that told u to wash your hands rather than use gel...was the baby born in england | |||
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"i am amazed at any hospital that told u to wash your hands rather than use gel...was the baby born in england "QE, Gateshead. | |||
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" NI does not pay for the nhs Indeed, National Insurance is folded into general taxation. Mind you it was a handy ruse for Gordon Brown to use to increase taxation without raising "tax rates"." Should have just raised VAT like gorgeous George - that went completely un-noticed not | |||
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"TYPICAL RESPONCE FROM anyone that works in the nhs they were saying that people brought mrsa in with them 13 yrs ago and they are no further forward now and tell me why holland has 5,000 cases of mrsa compared to 50,000 in the uk holland is ten times the size but thet steam clean any bed once anyone has any contagious disease you are all brainwashed by the goverment into beliving what you said ,BRING BACK MATRONS never had so many superbugs in the 60s did we?" Bring back Matron? Matrons were gradually introduced back into hospitals from late 2002, they have been known as 'Modern Matrons'...'Ward Managers'....Senior Clinical Nurses'....and 'Senior Sisters' since then, different governments just change their title and duty remit to suit themselves. Most hospitals in England and Wales have them....in some guise. So just not known as 'Matron' anymore. And regarding your MRSA.....could have been the patient in the next bed to you, one of your visitors, or even yourself. I know you won't want to hear that, but them's the facts! | |||
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"TYPICAL RESPONCE FROM anyone that works in the nhs they were saying that people brought mrsa in with them 13 yrs ago and they are no further forward now and tell me why holland has 5,000 cases of mrsa compared to 50,000 in the uk holland is ten times the size but thet steam clean any bed once anyone has any contagious disease you are all brainwashed by the goverment into beliving what you said ,BRING BACK MATRONS never had so many superbugs in the 60s did we? Bring back Matron? Matrons were gradually introduced back into hospitals from late 2002, they have been known as 'Modern Matrons'...'Ward Managers'....Senior Clinical Nurses'....and 'Senior Sisters' since then, different governments just change their title and duty remit to suit themselves. Most hospitals in England and Wales have them....in some guise. So just not known as 'Matron' anymore. And regarding your MRSA.....could have been the patient in the next bed to you, one of your visitors, or even yourself. I know you won't want to hear that, but them's the facts!" They do have some role..usually entitled "modern matron"  | |||
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Tony | |||
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"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely. Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some. It isn't, and it's time it was done away with." What would you replace it with? The American system? Have you ever tried getting health care in the US without insurance? You're ignoring by the way that part of the problem with the modern day NHS has been the constant change, the constant reorganizations, the tyranny of Whitehall mandarins tinkering with SHAs and the like.... All of our major European neighbours spend more of their GDP on healthcare than we do.... When are you going to start listening Wishy? | |||
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" NI does not pay for the nhs Indeed, National Insurance is folded into general taxation. Mind you it was a handy ruse for Gordon Brown to use to increase taxation without raising "tax rates"." Like every government since 1945... | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward. They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe... Does one tap make a filthy ward?Dont they have to check the water supply for such things on a regular basis? One would think that something as vital as a clean water supply would checked more than once daily. When visiting Siren and our daughter in hospital recently I was continually told to wash my hands before touching the baby, yet those poor babies on that ward were killed by the very thing that was supposed to ensure cleanliness. What irks me even more are the people on here who have tried to excuse that disgusting ward by inferring that disease is bound to occur and that the patients themselves introduce MRSA to the ward. How so, when those babies never even got the chance to leave hospital to get themselves infected with it. The NHS has got serious failings yet some people seem quite happy to write off preventable deaths as 'well, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette'. The NHS needs doing away with and replaced by a healthcare system that enforces cleanliness with an unbending rigidity, and gets rid of imcompetent nurses and doctors no matter how short fucking staffed they are. i am amazed at any hospital that told u to wash your hands rather than use gel...was the baby born in england "Jem probably most hospitals in the country would advise on washing your hands with liquid soap and water rather than using alcohol gel. You tend to find alcohol gels are used when not able to wash effectively with soap and water. District nurses will use them in peoples homes as sometimes the washing facilities in some peoples homes aren't adequate ie, they may only have a cracked bar of soap available and those aren't particularly hygienic or a dirty towel so it could be easier to stick a bit of alcohol gel on. Or if a nurse is seeing patient after patient ie, taking bloods, she prob wouldn't have time to go away and wash her hands properly each time so gel is available and used at the point of care. But using a handwashing sink in a clinical room has to be better to wash all that debriss off your hands rather than masking with gel all the time, and you get a sticky residue after a while anyway. A clinical sink is being used regularly, therefore being flushed through regularly so the risk of bacteria in the water system is improbable, I wouldn't imagine many would actively seek out a handbasin in a disused area which hadn't been flushed for ages and wash their hands there. | |||
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"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise? My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said. NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. Would it make a difference if you did? You've made your case. You've ducked the important statistics, like how efficient the NHS is, and you've explained, quite bravely, why you are so prejudiced about the NHS. Move on. I'm not privvy to the inner workings of the NHS and neither are you. Any of us can only form an opinion of it based upon our experiences of it. My experiences of the NHS have been consistently poor and on that basis I'd scrap it in a heartbeat." Sorry, you're wrong. You want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's an emotional response. I keep trying to get you to address evidence rather than anecdote and you keep having, to use the words of the father of the NHS (in another context) emotional spasms. That's no basis for a productive debate. You're right in one thing though - even if you may not know it. Nye Bevan said, in 1947, that if a bedpan was dropped in a hospital anywhere e in England it should echo in the office of the Secretary of State. The lack of local and national politica accountability for anything that goes wrong in the NHS remains a flaw, but, to paraphrase Churchill on democracy, the NHS looks like a terrible system until you consider the alternatives, all of which cost more or deliver much worse outcomes. | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward. They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe... Does one tap make a filthy ward?Dont they have to check the water supply for such things on a regular basis? One would think that something as vital as a clean water supply would checked more than once daily. When visiting Siren and our daughter in hospital recently I was continually told to wash my hands before touching the baby, yet those poor babies on that ward were killed by the very thing that was supposed to ensure cleanliness. What irks me even more are the people on here who have tried to excuse that disgusting ward by inferring that disease is bound to occur and that the patients themselves introduce MRSA to the ward. How so, when those babies never even got the chance to leave hospital to get themselves infected with it. The NHS has got serious failings yet some people seem quite happy to write off preventable deaths as 'well, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette'. The NHS needs doing away with and replaced by a healthcare system that enforces cleanliness with an unbending rigidity, and gets rid of imcompetent nurses and doctors no matter how short fucking staffed they are. i am amazed at any hospital that told u to wash your hands rather than use gel...was the baby born in england
Jem probably most hospitals in the country would advise on washing your hands with liquid soap and water rather than using alcohol gel.
You tend to find alcohol gels are used when not able to wash effectively with soap and water. District nurses will use them in peoples homes as sometimes the washing facilities in some peoples homes aren't adequate ie, they may only have a cracked bar of soap available and those aren't particularly hygienic or a dirty towel so it could be easier to stick a bit of alcohol gel on.
Or if a nurse is seeing patient after patient ie, taking bloods, she prob wouldn't have time to go away and wash her hands properly each time so gel is available and used at the point of care.
But using a handwashing sink in a clinical room has to be better to wash all that debriss off your hands rather than masking with gel all the time, and you get a sticky residue after a while anyway. A clinical sink is being used regularly, therefore being flushed through regularly so the risk of bacteria in the water system is improbable, I wouldn't imagine many would actively seek out a handbasin in a disused area which hadn't been flushed for ages and wash their hands there.
"was basing it on the care eldest had before his ops...may be different because cleft babies are kept in isolation and barrier nursed pre op...ty for the correction Still nver remember anyone being asked to wash their hands before giving the boys a hug when they were born | |||
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" I've more than paid for my kid's healthcare to date. If it all costs as much as you say it does then I've paid for other people's kid's healthcare too, it seems." yes you have. You've also contributed some of the cost of our soldiers being killed in iraq and Afghanistan, for John prescott's two jags, for the A1 dual carriageway, and umpteen other things. You've also helped contribute to the care of the elderly, helping to eradicate disease in third world countries, the social care of your elderly neighbour, the schools the generation that's paying your state pension is educated in. Consider your taxes as your gift to the rest of the country, your way of helping those who can't help themselves, and feel better for it and stop being such a miserable, selfish so and so. | |||
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"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid. Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward. They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe... Does one tap make a filthy ward?Dont they have to check the water supply for such things on a regular basis? One would think that something as vital as a clean water supply would checked more than once daily. When visiting Siren and our daughter in hospital recently I was continually told to wash my hands before touching the baby, yet those poor babies on that ward were killed by the very thing that was supposed to ensure cleanliness. What irks me even more are the people on here who have tried to excuse that disgusting ward by inferring that disease is bound to occur and that the patients themselves introduce MRSA to the ward. How so, when those babies never even got the chance to leave hospital to get themselves infected with it. The NHS has got serious failings yet some people seem quite happy to write off preventable deaths as 'well, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette'. The NHS needs doing away with and replaced by a healthcare system that enforces cleanliness with an unbending rigidity, and gets rid of imcompetent nurses and doctors no matter how short fucking staffed they are. i am amazed at any hospital that told u to wash your hands rather than use gel...was the baby born in england
Jem probably most hospitals in the country would advise on washing your hands with liquid soap and water rather than using alcohol gel.
You tend to find alcohol gels are used when not able to wash effectively with soap and water. District nurses will use them in peoples homes as sometimes the washing facilities in some peoples homes aren't adequate ie, they may only have a cracked bar of soap available and those aren't particularly hygienic or a dirty towel so it could be easier to stick a bit of alcohol gel on.
Or if a nurse is seeing patient after patient ie, taking bloods, she prob wouldn't have time to go away and wash her hands properly each time so gel is available and used at the point of care.
But using a handwashing sink in a clinical room has to be better to wash all that debriss off your hands rather than masking with gel all the time, and you get a sticky residue after a while anyway. A clinical sink is being used regularly, therefore being flushed through regularly so the risk of bacteria in the water system is improbable, I wouldn't imagine many would actively seek out a handbasin in a disused area which hadn't been flushed for ages and wash their hands there.
"I work in care and have always been told that the gel is not a substitute for correct hand washing and have had many a lesson in how to correctly wash hands. | |||
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"After a thread and a subsequent discussion about what is a drain on the nhs I was thinking.. Should people that for instance like to take sexual risks have to go private IF they catch something..?? Should overweight people be made to pay extra, along with smokers, drug takers, drinker etc..??? Do you think if a lifestyle choice makes you a higher risk of illness or needing medical care that you should have to ahve something in place to sort it yourself.. I think it would be a good idea... however many of the things are social status related and I am guessing could make it worse.. But for instance.. I was at my biggest looking to have a gastric band fitted and had already decided that I would fund the £2500 to have it done and go private.. SO what do you think.??? Cali " Under that assumption would it not be right to charge parents that have a child knowing that they are high risk with their gene's. Firm believer in trying to help yourself but the NHS needs to be able to do what it was created for. Before anyone says I am a firm supporter of NHS and everything it was created to do. | |||
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"..The American system? Have you ever tried getting health care in the US without insurance? You're ignoring by the way that part of the problem with the modern day NHS has been the constant change, the constant reorganizations, the tyranny of Whitehall mandarins tinkering with SHAs and the like.... All of our major European neighbours spend more of their GDP on healthcare than we do.... When are you going to start listening Wishy?" Why do you keep harping on about the american system? I haven't mentioned it apart from to say that I don't live there so it means absolutely nothing to me what type of healthcare system they have over there. The reason the NHS has been tinkered with over the decades since it was introduced is that no govt since 1947 has had the courage to stand up and say what is really wrong with it and scrap it. Or offer a credible alternative to the creaking, groaning, moaning old lady that is the NHS, but they think it would be political suicide to do it. If only they went out and spoke to the people of this country and asked the question: Should we scrap the NHS in it's current form, or tinker with it yet again? I suspect the answer would be a resounding SCRAP IT, so long as a viable alternative was offered. One can listen without acknowledging the fact that one can hear what's being said on all sides. Try it sometime. | |||
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" I've more than paid for my kid's healthcare to date. If it all costs as much as you say it does then I've paid for other people's kid's healthcare too, it seems. yes you have. You've also contributed some of the cost of our soldiers being killed in iraq and Afghanistan, for John prescott's two jags, for the A1 dual carriageway, and umpteen other things. You've also helped contribute to the care of the elderly, helping to eradicate disease in third world countries, the social care of your elderly neighbour, the schools the generation that's paying your state pension is educated in. Consider your taxes as your gift to the rest of the country, your way of helping those who can't help themselves, and feel better for it and stop being such a miserable, selfish so and so. "+1 | |||
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"What do you think is a viable alternative Wishy?" The businesses that are the most successful are those that are run the best. Those that employ quality staff and pay them a decent wage. Those that maximise their resources by streamlining their ordering processes so that each penny can be tracked to the minutest of detail - who ordered what, from whom and for what purpose. Those businesses that have Health & Safety as a core aspect of their business rather than something that should be swept under the carpet and excuses made when things go wrong. That's the operational side of a quality system, but how is it paid for? Take the cost of the NHS as it stands now and a good proportion of that can be saved simply by applying the common sense I've outlined above. But it needs more. The NHS is such a mammoth that it couldn't be scrapped overnight, that would be a foolish thing to attempt to do, or even over a couple of years. It can only be replaced over a period of maybe ten years, and I would start by allocating 30% of the NHS budget into renovating or rebuilding the oldest NHS hospitals in areas where the population is highest and bring them into line with modern building techniques and made far easier to keep clean and move people and equipment around. Contracted out services like cleaning and food preparation should have watertight procedures in place that disable any attempt to circumvent health & safety (if nobody ever dies of bacterial infection again it will mean the system is working but human nature seems to take the _iew that because nothing has happened nothing needs doing, and that's when the problems start). Ok, contentious points: Forcing those who injure themselves through their own foolhardiness. I think that's a better way of determining those who end up at A&E without lumping the mentally ill, or those who have injured themselves playing sports etc in amongst the 'self harming' group. By foolhardiness I mean the people who get pissed up and hurt themselves, or those who drive their cars wrecklessly and hurt themselves, people who cross the road whilst using a mobile phone and get hit by a bus/car/lorry etc and need hospital treatment. Anything that can and should be avoided but because of someone's carelessness has resulted in a trip to A&E should be chargeable. I don't agree that we can all do what we want when we want and when it goes wrong the NHS picks up the tab. We each have a duty of care to our own person just because it's bloody stupid not to. A&E should not be the fall guy for when common sense has left the building, but people who are injured should not be turned away either. They should pay if they've brought it upon themselves through being foolhardy. Johnny Foreigner should not get free healthcare over here either. At all. If he's travelled here without health insurance he shouldn't be admitted entrance to the UK. Better still, it should be made clear to other countries that they should inform their citizens planning to come here that the UK now requires all visitors to have health insurance. I believe a decent healthcare system can be delivered in the UK without increasing the costs of the current system, in fact I believe it can be done and DECREASE the costs we're paying for the NHS as it is now. Get rid of the waste, make ordering supplies, equipment and services much more efficient by introducing a central database that ALL NHS facilities have to use by law. Companies offering products to the NHS should make those tenders to a body of authority that can establish whether the price offered is a fair one, and ensure that unscrupulous companies are not using the NHS as a cash cow, and also ensure that dodgy doctors are not getting kickbacks for paying over the odds prices for products needed. (I'm not saying that does happen, but I figure: why take the risk). I've knocked all that up in five minutes so it's full of holes and it would take a small army of professional people to come up with a detailed plan for replacing the NHS. I just wish someone had the gonads to initiate such a plan. | |||
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"Personally I would have thought that someone who has distrusted the public health to such an extent, and seemingly for so long, would have LONG AGO taken out Private Health Insurance for themselves and their family? I trust more in deeds than words, its all very well moaning about something, but whats the point when there has been an alternative for such a long time? BUPA has been around for years now....why the delay in signing up?" Because it begrudges me to pay for the NHS and then have to pay for private healthcare too. I've worked as a PAYE employee for the last dozen years or so and that company didn't offer BUPA etc. Now that I am starting my own business I shall be taking out private healthcare for me and my family as part of the running costs of the business and I can do it my 'key man' health policy. If I don't work the family starve, so if I need hospital treatment it is far more efficient to get it done quickly and privately. The more I earn the more tax I pay. | |||
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"I think it happens a lot now...if you are overweight and need surgery they will tell you lose weight...if you smoke they will tell you to pack up smoking. If someone is so overweight that is causing health prblems, then it might be cheaper for the NHS to do the op. I took the option of doing it myself as I had to lose a few stone before they would allow me the operation anyway.. They also told me there was a huge waiting list.. so.. after a few months of dieting and losing weight what was the point... My mum smoked 60 a day... and died from smoking related ailments. I just mean that if you choose to partake in a lifestyle that makes you a high risk.. then you should have to contribute more.. When I was doing a lot of motorsport I had private insurance.. as lets face it I was more at risk.. Cali " But where will it end? What about people who drive everywhere and thus become unfit and unhealthy-ie most of the population? | |||
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"theres more holes in wishy's post than a colander - sorry wishy but most have what you advocate is already in place - al governments have been spouting the same thing for the last 20 years "waste" bt the reality is that in any organisation there will be waste and proportionally or in percentage terms there will be more waste in a small business- quoting examples like someone said a box of gloves for £300 mask the fact that in the great scheme of things that is negligible but if you for instance make one wrong decision in your endeavours that could mean curtains for your business or certainly a huge hit to your profits" Did I not say it was full of holes? If I could knock up an NHS rescue proposal in five minutes on an online swingers forum that actually worked I'd deserve to be paid more than Fred the Shred. It was very much a tongue in cheek post but I stand by my own personal opinion (a concept seemed lost to many on here) that the NHS in it's current state is only going to continue haemorrhaging money until someone takes the brave position of saying 'No more!' and sets about replacing the worn out behemoth with a cut down, streamlined, ultra-efficient universal health service of which the rest of the world would be envious. We are reknowned for our innovation, why is it we can't we come up with a system that delivers what it's supposed to, to the people who pay for and need it. | |||
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"I personally wouldn't saddle a new business venture with costs that are not absolutely necessary to start with, over 80% of new businesses go under in the first 18 months, mostly due to unnecessary financial strains on a fledgling business." I'm one of those lucky people who have been blessed with perfect health all my life so far. I've never had an operation and never needed to stay overnight in hospital. In my 46 years all I've ever had done at a hospital is 3 stitches in my index finger and if I'd been presented with a bill for a few hundred pounds to cover the cost of it I'd have paid it as it was my own goddam fault for cutting my finger in the first place. (and yes, I don't need it pointing out that I've had three children born in hospital, but hey, they get that entitlement under their own rights, being minors and all that). ~ I am well aware of the costs involved in setting up a new business but in my case: I won't need premises, I already have a vehicle and I've amassed more tools than you can shake a stick at in my 24 years as an cable/data/telecoms engineer. "I take it then that you are starting a company of which you will be a director rather than being a self employed individual then? A Key Man policy won't cover you for minor medical matters, so you will still be relying heavily on the NHS that you despise so much. " It will be a limited company and voluntarily VAT registered from the word go. I have to have public liability insurance due to the nature of the work I'll be doing, but essentially it will be just me and Siren starting it up (you need at least two people to start a limited company, but I'm sure you know that already). As for my Key Man policy, well, I'll be the key man, so I'll need decent health cover in place to ensure I get swift and proper health care should I need it, and I don't trust the NHS to deliver that. I won't be taking out an actual Key Man Insurance policy as I don't feel I need that, but with private medical health cover I can cover my whole family, including my daughter down south, all tax deductable, (but I'm sure I didn't need to tell you that either, Jane). | |||
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"With over 400 NHS hospitals, 700 NHS clinics and 3000 doctors surgeries in England alone.... How do you simplify it? Honestly......" The tax office seems to be able to process 40m people on a weekly basis using a central database (it's up here in Newcastle actually), so why can't the NHS employ the same technology? It's not rocket science and a reputable database company could produce a definitive data dictionary for the NHS within two years. Once that database is constructed, the companies that supply the NHS with the things it needs, from dishcloths to surgical instruments, need to be looked at in absolute detail to see where money is being wasted needlessly, and where savings can - and should - be made these companies can be told to readjust their prices or find business elsewhere, and with the quantities involved they'd have no choice. A few hundred competent procurement professionals (the university service has such a scheme in place already) would soon barter the prices down for supplies the NHS needs. That could take a couple of years but it can run in conjunction with the new central database being constructed with new tarrifs to begin in two years time when the system goes live. That leaves staffing and building issues. I've already said that the oldest hospitals should be gutted and renovated to be refitted with the very latest technology, and if they can't, pull them down. (Siren will tell you what I think of old usless buildings that are kept purely for aesthetic reasons). Old buildings that can be renovated should be kept though. I'd also have a network of mini-hospitals to serve rural areas, leaving the large urban hospitals to serve the people that live there. Specialist hospitals will always require patients to travel long distances to get to them and that's something that can't change. Teachers have regular training days to keep them abreast of changes in their profession and what they have to do in their day to day activities. Nurses should undergo the same type of continual training. Working practices change over time and someone who qualified as a nurse/doctor/surgeon 5 or 10 or 15 years ago will not be up to date with someone who qualified 2 years or 2 months ago. I see no point employing people who let standards slide over time because nothing is done to ensure those standards are maintained. Siren's treatment is hospital recently was disgusting, and my _iews are based upon what I've seen with my own eyes, why else would I be so critical of the NHS, but it doesn't have to be something so inept and corrupt that leaving to trundle along leaking cash is better than fixing it. It just takes a bit of balls to get the job done. | |||
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"..The American system? Have you ever tried getting health care in the US without insurance? You're ignoring by the way that part of the problem with the modern day NHS has been the constant change, the constant reorganizations, the tyranny of Whitehall mandarins tinkering with SHAs and the like.... All of our major European neighbours spend more of their GDP on healthcare than we do.... When are you going to start listening Wishy? Why do you keep harping on about the american system? I haven't mentioned it apart from to say that I don't live there so it means absolutely nothing to me what type of healthcare system they have over there. The reason the NHS has been tinkered with over the decades since it was introduced is that no govt since 1947 has had the courage to stand up and say what is really wrong with it and scrap it. Or offer a credible alternative to the creaking, groaning, moaning old lady that is the NHS, but they think it would be political suicide to do it. If only they went out and spoke to the people of this country and asked the question: Should we scrap the NHS in it's current form, or tinker with it yet again? I suspect the answer would be a resounding SCRAP IT, so long as a viable alternative was offered. One can listen without acknowledging the fact that one can hear what's being said on all sides. Try it sometime." People keep asking you about the american system because you keep advocating a private healthcare system. Which is what the Americans have got. | |||
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"All I will say is Wishy....you need to sit down with an accountant and discuss tax relief on private health insurance as regards a limited company. I won't bother going into it here as I am guessing you won't agree with most of what I will say on the matter, but as with most things regarding setting up a new business nothing is as simple and straightforward as people imagine. The first rule of setting up a new business?, and any half decent accountant will confirm this, is make the business profitable because you need to actually start making money before you make too many plans to spend it. Good luck with it anyway." I've had limited companies in the past and I know how to set them up and what needs doing. My business won't be a 'bricks and mortar' business as I won't need a shop or stock etc. Everything is paid for out of what I earn and what I earn is made up mostly of my time (about 90%), the rest is a modest markup on fittings. It's all standard stuff and I know what I need to earn for just my wage, and how much I need to generate to employ other sparkies. | |||
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"People keep asking you about the american system because you keep advocating a private healthcare system. Which is what the Americans have got." I don't know the intracies of the US healthcare system as I've never lived there, and tbh I don't really give a monkey's about what they do in the U.S. so please stop banging on about it. | |||
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"All I will say is Wishy....you need to sit down with an accountant and discuss tax relief on private health insurance as regards a limited company. I won't bother going into it here as I am guessing you won't agree with most of what I will say on the matter, but as with most things regarding setting up a new business nothing is as simple and straightforward as people imagine. The first rule of setting up a new business?, and any half decent accountant will confirm this, is make the business profitable because you need to actually start making money before you make too many plans to spend it. Good luck with it anyway. I've had limited companies in the past and I know how to set them up and what needs doing. My business won't be a 'bricks and mortar' business as I won't need a shop or stock etc. Everything is paid for out of what I earn and what I earn is made up mostly of my time (about 90%), the rest is a modest markup on fittings. It's all standard stuff and I know what I need to earn for just my wage, and how much I need to generate to employ other sparkies." One....One person needed to start up a limited company. And if the company pays your PMI...you will have to pay the tax on that policy, the tax being....the full cost of the policy. | |||
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"People keep asking you about the american system because you keep advocating a private healthcare system. Which is what the Americans have got. I don't know the intracies of the US healthcare system as I've never lived there, and tbh I don't really give a monkey's about what they do in the U.S. so please stop banging on about it." Id hardly say I was banging on about it, you asked a question I answered. | |||
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"theres more holes in wishy's post than a colander - sorry wishy but most have what you advocate is already in place - al governments have been spouting the same thing for the last 20 years "waste" bt the reality is that in any organisation there will be waste and proportionally or in percentage terms there will be more waste in a small business- quoting examples like someone said a box of gloves for £300 mask the fact that in the great scheme of things that is negligible but if you for instance make one wrong decision in your endeavours that could mean curtains for your business or certainly a huge hit to your profits Did I not say it was full of holes? If I could knock up an NHS rescue proposal in five minutes on an online swingers forum that actually worked I'd deserve to be paid more than Fred the Shred. It was very much a tongue in cheek post but I stand by my own personal opinion (a concept seemed lost to many on here) that the NHS in it's current state is only going to continue haemorrhaging money until someone takes the brave position of saying 'No more!' and sets about replacing the worn out behemoth with a cut down, streamlined, ultra-efficient universal health service of which the rest of the world would be envious. We are reknowned for our innovation, why is it we can't we come up with a system that delivers what it's supposed to, to the people who pay for and need it." Research has shown that many British people are deluded about how they are seen by people in other countries and it is clear from your assertion that 'we are renowned for our innovation' that you are one of those people.We are not renowned for our innovation. The British as a people were renowned for their innovation in the past because we were the first country to industrialise and were inventing steam trains and so on. But we are not renowned for our innovation now and haven't been for a long time. What the British -particularly the English-are now justifiably renowned for,is , amongst other things, their huge, almost Third World like gap between rich and poor, being badly-educated and poorly informed and being stuck in the past. Many people would argue that herein lie the roots of the problems with our health system. The NHS is not adequately funded because people don't pay enough tax . The rich don't want to pay more tax and governments who try to get them to pay more tax usually get brought down because the media finds it very easy to manipulate the badly educated and poorly informed British masses into voting them out, as Gordon Brown found out subsequent to his attempt at getting the rich to pay just a little more tax. The poor can't afford to pay more tax. Free medical care for all is a socialist idea and of course the NHS was brought into being by socialists (of a sort). If we want it to work properly then we need to apply some other socialist ideas too. We need to re-distribute wealth and reduce the massive gap between rich and poor so that everyone can comfortably pay more tax, as they do in Norway. And we need to regulate capitalism (if we insist on retaining it) so that the companies who build the hospitals, and provide the equipment and drugs they use can't charge the exorbitant prices they are currently able to charge thanks to the unregulated laissez faire capitalism which we have in this country ( of which you appear to approve,despite, ironically, complaining about its inevitable consequences) | |||
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"The danger with this is where the lines are drawn. Does anyone really live a risk free normal life?"
And where is the line drawn?....after people paying all their life then they are told it's going to be at an end because someone deciced they didn't like how they lived?  | |||
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"One....One person needed to start up a limited company. And if the company pays your PMI...you will have to pay the tax on that policy, the tax being....the full cost of the policy." It changed in 2006, a secretary is no longer a legal requirement. That suits me fine. As for PMI, BUPA have quoted £195.35 per month to cover my entire family (x5), which works out to £2,344.20 annually. That is deducted from my own personal tax code and I then become liable for tax on the full amount @ 20% = £468.44. Divide that by 52 and I can get comprehensive healthcare cover for my entire family for £9 per WEEK. That's just with BUPA but I'll do a comprehensive quote from different providers when I'm ready. The monthly premiums are paid by the company and I am taxed on the benefit of it. I'll take that deal ta very much. | |||
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"..The American system? Have you ever tried getting health care in the US without insurance? You're ignoring by the way that part of the problem with the modern day NHS has been the constant change, the constant reorganizations, the tyranny of Whitehall mandarins tinkering with SHAs and the like.... All of our major European neighbours spend more of their GDP on healthcare than we do.... When are you going to start listening Wishy? Why do you keep harping on about the american system? I haven't mentioned it apart from to say that I don't live there so it means absolutely nothing to me what type of healthcare system they have over there. The reason the NHS has been tinkered with over the decades since it was introduced is that no govt since 1947 has had the courage to stand up and say what is really wrong with it and scrap it. Or offer a credible alternative to the creaking, groaning, moaning old lady that is the NHS, but they think it would be political suicide to do it. If only they went out and spoke to the people of this country and asked the question: Should we scrap the NHS in it's current form, or tinker with it yet again? I suspect the answer would be a resounding SCRAP IT, so long as a viable alternative was offered. One can listen without acknowledging the fact that one can hear what's being said on all sides. Try it sometime." You haven't proposed a viable alternative. All the European alternatives cost more than the NHS, or deliver a worse service, or both. | |||
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"You haven't proposed a viable alternative. All the European alternatives cost more than the NHS, or deliver a worse service, or both." So sorry, was busy perving some naked women to come up with a detailed plan. Will have another go later when I've finished looking at a few more I've hotlisted. Is that ok with you? Sheesh! | |||
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"theres more holes in wishy's post than a colander - sorry wishy but most have what you advocate is already in place - al governments have been spouting the same thing for the last 20 years "waste" bt the reality is that in any organisation there will be waste and proportionally or in percentage terms there will be more waste in a small business- quoting examples like someone said a box of gloves for £300 mask the fact that in the great scheme of things that is negligible but if you for instance make one wrong decision in your endeavours that could mean curtains for your business or certainly a huge hit to your profits Did I not say it was full of holes? If I could knock up an NHS rescue proposal in five minutes on an online swingers forum that actually worked I'd deserve to be paid more than Fred the Shred. It was very much a tongue in cheek post but I stand by my own personal opinion (a concept seemed lost to many on here) that the NHS in it's current state is only going to continue haemorrhaging money until someone takes the brave position of saying 'No more!' and sets about replacing the worn out behemoth with a cut down, streamlined, ultra-efficient universal health service of which the rest of the world would be envious. We are reknowned for our innovation, why is it we can't we come up with a system that delivers what it's supposed to, to the people who pay for and need it." Your post was a tirade with no relevance to the real world. There, I've said it. You know the square root of nothing. Never heard of the NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency? That was a procurement initiative that came to nought, and was replaced with two new initiatives. The NHs is targetted with delivering £1.4B of procurement savings per year. It already does the things you advocate. It's awash with procurement and purchasing initiatives. Bizarrely it's this government, who you seem to support, who're undermining that by bringing in the private sector and disaggregating health services. Rebuild hospitals using 30% of the budget? That's fucking genius if you managed that without taking recreational drugs. Again, bizarrely, the government you seem to support is cutting capital spending - the opposite of what you advocate, although there's no evidence you know the difference between capital and revenue spending. | |||
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"Hey, it's just a post on a swinger's forum. We're not actually talking about something that will ever get done. p.s. The annual budget for the NHS is £106bn. 30% of that is £31.8bn. (that's £31,800,000,000,000) How many goddam hospitals will that build. "How many nurses and doctors would you have to sack to free up that 30%? You just don't get it do you? | |||
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"Hey, it's just a post on a swinger's forum. We're not actually talking about something that will ever get done. p.s. The annual budget for the NHS is £106bn. 30% of that is £31.8bn. (that's £31,800,000,000,000) How many goddam hospitals will that build.
How many nurses and doctors would you have to sack to free up that 30%?
You just don't get it do you?
"None. But quite a few pen pushers might have to go. Tragic huh? | |||
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"One....One person needed to start up a limited company. And if the company pays your PMI...you will have to pay the tax on that policy, the tax being....the full cost of the policy. It changed in 2006, a secretary is no longer a legal requirement. That suits me fine. As for PMI, BUPA have quoted £195.35 per month to cover my entire family (x5), which works out to £2,344.20 annually. That is deducted from my own personal tax code and I then become liable for tax on the full amount @ 20% = £468.44. Divide that by 52 and I can get comprehensive healthcare cover for my entire family for £9 per WEEK. That's just with BUPA but I'll do a comprehensive quote from different providers when I'm ready. The monthly premiums are paid by the company and I am taxed on the benefit of it. I'll take that deal ta very much." It's absolutely pointless for me to keep arguing with you Wishy, as I said earlier in the thread you need to sit down with an accountant. Maybe then you will get some grasp of the reality of tax relief on Private Health Insurance. I can only hope you haven't produced your own profit and loss forecast for you new business venture, as you have an almost unique understanding of the UK tax system, which bares very little resemblence to the real world. So I'll leave it there....ans sit here shaking my head instead. | |||
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"Hey, it's just a post on a swinger's forum. We're not actually talking about something that will ever get done. p.s. The annual budget for the NHS is £106bn. 30% of that is £31.8bn. (that's £31,800,000,000,000) How many goddam hospitals will that build.
How many nurses and doctors would you have to sack to free up that 30%?
You just don't get it do you?
None. But quite a few pen pushers might have to go. Tragic huh?"There aren't that many pen pushers to sack sadly, most of the ones that the NHS employs are involved in contract negations, finance and purchasing and standards audits/compliance. | |||
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