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Trans athletes

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By *lackXeal OP   Man
over a year ago

Middlesbrough

News circulating that trans women are dominating sports women sports.

Just wondering on how sports would turn to and how can this be balanced?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No suprise really. Serena Williams and his brother Venus have been on top of women's tennis for over a decade.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *lackXeal OP   Man
over a year ago

Middlesbrough


"No suprise really. Serena Williams and his brother Venus have been on top of women's tennis for over a decade. "

And now they are rich and famous. Don't you think others can do that also

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

When you say dominating.....what exactly do you mean?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Doninating women's sport? I bet you can't name 10 trans women competing at elite level?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"When you say dominating.....what exactly do you mean?"

I think he means a few. In all sports. At all levels. In the whole world. So less "dominating" and more "a handful are competing at a high level"

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"When you say dominating.....what exactly do you mean?

I think he means a few. In all sports. At all levels. In the whole world. So less "dominating" and more "a handful are competing at a high level""

Low level domination then

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

There are complicated and difficult decisions to make over who gets to compete as what gender.

Making claims about trans women 'dominating' sport are not helpful to that.

Trans people are thought to be less than 1% of the population, and the barriers for them to compete in sport are going to be significant. There's very little chance of 'domination'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

More ignorance as usual, you take hormones for three years and see if you can compete against men.

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By *ungBlackTopMan
over a year ago

salford

Men compete against men and women compete against women. I don't understand why that concept is so difficult to understand. We are genetically different...deal with it!

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

I'm glad this discussion hasn't yet been shut down by the Liberal fascists that refuse to listen to differing opinions. The question I want to ask, and I'm not a medical expert. But wouldn't having a large amount of testosterone in your body for 25 years of natural development and then taking female hormones for six months give an unfair advantage in competitive sport? I'm standing up for womens rights here, yet get called a bigoted misogynist for expressing a fact in front of folk trying to stand up for a small minority who want to change the way the majority of people think. My argument is, if it was your daughter competing against a so called fifteen year old trans person who looked 25 but couldn't prove it because of no identification would that be OK? Or should we just scrap competitive sport because the Liberal lefties don't agree with that either?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm glad this discussion hasn't yet been shut down by the Liberal fascists that refuse to listen to differing opinions. The question I want to ask, and I'm not a medical expert. But wouldn't having a large amount of testosterone in your body for 25 years of natural development and then taking female hormones for six months give an unfair advantage in competitive sport? I'm standing up for womens rights here, yet get called a bigoted misogynist for expressing a fact in front of folk trying to stand up for a small minority who want to change the way the majority of people think. My argument is, if it was your daughter competing against a so called fifteen year old trans person who looked 25 but couldn't prove it because of no identification would that be OK? Or should we just scrap competitive sport because the Liberal lefties don't agree with that either? "
what you trying to say ? That top level athletes can just walk into competitions for 15 year olds with no formal checks on age and who they are ? and why dig an old thread up start a new one if you have a gripe

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford


"I'm glad this discussion hasn't yet been shut down by the Liberal fascists that refuse to listen to differing opinions. The question I want to ask, and I'm not a medical expert. But wouldn't having a large amount of testosterone in your body for 25 years of natural development and then taking female hormones for six months give an unfair advantage in competitive sport? I'm standing up for womens rights here, yet get called a bigoted misogynist for expressing a fact in front of folk trying to stand up for a small minority who want to change the way the majority of people think. My argument is, if it was your daughter competing against a so called fifteen year old trans person who looked 25 but couldn't prove it because of no identification would that be OK? Or should we just scrap competitive sport because the Liberal lefties don't agree with that either? "

So called trans person?? Really??

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool


"I'm glad this discussion hasn't yet been shut down by the Liberal fascists that refuse to listen to differing opinions. The question I want to ask, and I'm not a medical expert. But wouldn't having a large amount of testosterone in your body for 25 years of natural development and then taking female hormones for six months give an unfair advantage in competitive sport? I'm standing up for womens rights here, yet get called a bigoted misogynist for expressing a fact in front of folk trying to stand up for a small minority who want to change the way the majority of people think. My argument is, if it was your daughter competing against a so called fifteen year old trans person who looked 25 but couldn't prove it because of no identification would that be OK? Or should we just scrap competitive sport because the Liberal lefties don't agree with that either? what you trying to say ? That top level athletes can just walk into competitions for 15 year olds with no formal checks on age and who they are ? and why dig an old thread up start a new one if you have a gripe "

Because it's related to the thing he is wanting to discuss. Doesn't matter if he dug up an old thread or created a new one. It's still a related subject, and continues along the same subject matter.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"I'm glad this discussion hasn't yet been shut down by the Liberal fascists that refuse to listen to differing opinions. The question I want to ask, and I'm not a medical expert. But wouldn't having a large amount of testosterone in your body for 25 years of natural development and then taking female hormones for six months give an unfair advantage in competitive sport? I'm standing up for womens rights here, yet get called a bigoted misogynist for expressing a fact in front of folk trying to stand up for a small minority who want to change the way the majority of people think. My argument is, if it was your daughter competing against a so called fifteen year old trans person who looked 25 but couldn't prove it because of no identification would that be OK? Or should we just scrap competitive sport because the Liberal lefties don't agree with that either? "

Have you looked at the personal best times of the swimmer who has recently been in the news after not finishing first in a swim meet. Surely if she has such a great advantage having trained as a man for some time she'd have smashed the win?

I don't know why I'm bothering replying to you though as the language you have used makes it very clear you are not up for a reasoned debate on this matter. Anyone hi starts off by calling those who differ in opinion to yours. Liberal fascist is not wanting to discuss nothing reasonably.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

Also.....who is trying to allow a 25 year old compete with no identification or is that a made up argument taken to the extreme to try and prove a point?

Happy to go read up on it of it's real.

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By *aliceWoman
over a year ago

Birmingham

Personally I'm delighted to see that you're standing up for women in sport.

I look forward to your threads on the gender pay gap in sport, inequality in funding for female athletes, lack of visibility of womens sport in the media, and the underrepresenation of women in coaching and leadership positions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The whole matter is very complicated and I can see why it is such a polarised debate

But thinking that someone would just transition because they wanna win, it’s just talking utter crap.

It isn’t an easy road, and also, dealing internally and externally is fucking hard.

Also, personally speaking, when it comes to sports (doesn’t have to be at competitive level) I think (trans) kids should be able to join their gender identity if they wanted to , as that’s a very important bonding part of growing up

I was in an all-girls volley team at school was I good at it? Not that good at all but I loved every sec of it

Also I’d just refuse to do any boys sport

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole matter is very complicated and I can see why it is such a polarised debate

But thinking that someone would just transition because they wanna win, it’s just talking utter crap.

It isn’t an easy road, and also, dealing internally and externally is fucking hard.

Also, personally speaking, when it comes to sports (doesn’t have to be at competitive level) I think (trans) kids should be able to join their gender identity if they wanted to , as that’s a very important bonding part of growing up

I was in an all-girls volley team at school was I good at it? Not that good at all but I loved every sec of it

Also I’d just refuse to do any boys sport "

Their gender team

U get what I mean right?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm glad this discussion hasn't yet been shut down by the Liberal fascists that refuse to listen to differing opinions. The question I want to ask, and I'm not a medical expert. But wouldn't having a large amount of testosterone in your body for 25 years of natural development and then taking female hormones for six months give an unfair advantage in competitive sport? I'm standing up for womens rights here, yet get called a bigoted misogynist for expressing a fact in front of folk trying to stand up for a small minority who want to change the way the majority of people think. My argument is, if it was your daughter competing against a so called fifteen year old trans person who looked 25 but couldn't prove it because of no identification would that be OK? Or should we just scrap competitive sport because the Liberal lefties don't agree with that either? "

Someone came looking for a fight. I'm in a similar mood myself.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm glad this discussion hasn't yet been shut down by the Liberal fascists that refuse to listen to differing opinions. The question I want to ask, and I'm not a medical expert. But wouldn't having a large amount of testosterone in your body for 25 years of natural development and then taking female hormones for six months give an unfair advantage in competitive sport? I'm standing up for womens rights here, yet get called a bigoted misogynist for expressing a fact in front of folk trying to stand up for a small minority who want to change the way the majority of people think. My argument is, if it was your daughter competing against a so called fifteen year old trans person who looked 25 but couldn't prove it because of no identification would that be OK? Or should we just scrap competitive sport because the Liberal lefties don't agree with that either?

Have you looked at the personal best times of the swimmer who has recently been in the news after not finishing first in a swim meet. Surely if she has such a great advantage having trained as a man for some time she'd have smashed the win?

I don't know why I'm bothering replying to you though as the language you have used makes it very clear you are not up for a reasoned debate on this matter. Anyone hi starts off by calling those who differ in opinion to yours. Liberal fascist is not wanting to discuss nothing reasonably. "

Do you mean Lia Thomas? She has smashed her wins?

Agree with you that the new poster's language is just not reasonable. It's such a pity as these are issues that are very current and should be discussed. Respectfully.

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By *ools and the brainCouple
over a year ago

couple, us we him her.

Insults aside it's an interesting subject matter.

As long as the athletes in question pass all necessary requirements set down by the sports governing body and they are within tolerances then unless it can be categorically proven that they have an unfair advantage I can't see why they shouldn't be allowed to compete.

I mean women athletes have been exploiting the childbirth loophole for years and the hormone kick they get from it.

But if a trans athlete had such an obvious and clear dominance of their particular sport due to their hormones then yes they shouldn't be allowed to compete.

But if they are dominant due to hard work dedication and pure athletic ability they shouldn't be penalised for their gender choice.

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

Should I have to alter my language to avoid upsetting a few minorities hours chose to go out of their way for their own selfish dreams. I'm discussing lia thomas in a pub in a communal area and when I agree I was n the same camp as jk Rowling and sharrow Davies I was cut down and called a misogynist . I was then put in in the minority in the group and the discussion was over

. I'm putting it out there in the same way that lia Thomas is doing and looking for the response. It's my belief that she is a self centred minority wanting everyone o accept her and going bout it the wrong way . I opened this to hear legitimate points of view in support of what she's doing, cos I just haven't seen one yet. She's put herself in the firing line to open debate , which is what I'm looking for, not mud slinging from the silencers. Which, I believe ws jks point of view, and anyone wo has tried to open this topic. I am a free thinking Liberal, and will listen to anything someone wants to say without resorting to name calling from the first comment I don't agree with, but im glad it's an honest and open site and will take on what anyone has to say to change my opinion.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Insults aside it's an interesting subject matter.

As long as the athletes in question pass all necessary requirements set down by the sports governing body and they are within tolerances then unless it can be categorically proven that they have an unfair advantage I can't see why they shouldn't be allowed to compete.

I mean women athletes have been exploiting the childbirth loophole for years and the hormone kick they get from it.

But if a trans athlete had such an obvious and clear dominance of their particular sport due to their hormones then yes they shouldn't be allowed to compete.

But if they are dominant due to hard work dedication and pure athletic ability they shouldn't be penalised for their gender choice."

Agreed. Aren't athletes rigorously tested for stimulants, growth hormones etc? I'm pretty sure there's a level of testosterone that would trigger alarms.

It's just a big stick to beat gender positivity with I reckon.

Where's the bloke who bumped this thread and wanted a fight that's what I want to know... Bring it.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Should I have to alter my language to avoid upsetting a few minorities hours chose to go out of their way for their own selfish dreams. I'm discussing lia thomas in a pub in a communal area and when I agree I was n the same camp as jk Rowling and sharrow Davies I was cut down and called a misogynist . I was then put in in the minority in the group and the discussion was over

. I'm putting it out there in the same way that lia Thomas is doing and looking for the response. It's my belief that she is a self centred minority wanting everyone o accept her and going bout it the wrong way . I opened this to hear legitimate points of view in support of what she's doing, cos I just haven't seen one yet. She's put herself in the firing line to open debate , which is what I'm looking for, not mud slinging from the silencers. Which, I believe ws jks point of view, and anyone wo has tried to open this topic. I am a free thinking Liberal, and will listen to anything someone wants to say without resorting to name calling from the first comment I don't agree with, but im glad it's an honest and open site and will take on what anyone has to say to change my opinion."

Ah there you are.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Should I have to alter my language to avoid upsetting a few minorities hours chose to go out of their way for their own selfish dreams. I'm discussing lia thomas in a pub in a communal area and when I agree I was n the same camp as jk Rowling and sharrow Davies I was cut down and called a misogynist . I was then put in in the minority in the group and the discussion was over

. I'm putting it out there in the same way that lia Thomas is doing and looking for the response. It's my belief that she is a self centred minority wanting everyone o accept her and going bout it the wrong way . I opened this to hear legitimate points of view in support of what she's doing, cos I just haven't seen one yet. She's put herself in the firing line to open debate , which is what I'm looking for, not mud slinging from the silencers. Which, I believe ws jks point of view, and anyone wo has tried to open this topic. I am a free thinking Liberal, and will listen to anything someone wants to say without resorting to name calling from the first comment I don't agree with, but im glad it's an honest and open site and will take on what anyone has to say to change my opinion."

So what are your key points?

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By *ustauseerTV/TS
over a year ago

Sedgemoor

There are lots of incredibly subjective and pejorative term is currently being thrown around and it’s disappointing to see.

But then again I guess common courtesy when you don’t believe that someone deserves the right to be them selves is asking an awful amount.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

[Removed by poster at 24/03/22 21:20:48]

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"I'm glad this discussion hasn't yet been shut down by the Liberal fascists that refuse to listen to differing opinions. The question I want to ask, and I'm not a medical expert. But wouldn't having a large amount of testosterone in your body for 25 years of natural development and then taking female hormones for six months give an unfair advantage in competitive sport? I'm standing up for womens rights here, yet get called a bigoted misogynist for expressing a fact in front of folk trying to stand up for a small minority who want to change the way the majority of people think. My argument is, if it was your daughter competing against a so called fifteen year old trans person who looked 25 but couldn't prove it because of no identification would that be OK? Or should we just scrap competitive sport because the Liberal lefties don't agree with that either?

Have you looked at the personal best times of the swimmer who has recently been in the news after not finishing first in a swim meet. Surely if she has such a great advantage having trained as a man for some time she'd have smashed the win?

I don't know why I'm bothering replying to you though as the language you have used makes it very clear you are not up for a reasoned debate on this matter. Anyone hi starts off by calling those who differ in opinion to yours. Liberal fascist is not wanting to discuss nothing reasonably.

Do you mean Lia Thomas? She has smashed her wins?

Agree with you that the new poster's language is just not reasonable. It's such a pity as these are issues that are very current and should be discussed. Respectfully. "

Yet she hasn't according to this article in the independent.

https://www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-swimmer-trans-ncaa-b2042715.html?amp=&amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16481568153044&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Famericas%2Flia-thomas-swimmer-trans-ncaa-b2042715.html

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don't follow sports, don't care lol

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By *ools and the brainCouple
over a year ago

couple, us we him her.


"There are lots of incredibly subjective and pejorative term is currently being thrown around and it’s disappointing to see.

But then again I guess common courtesy when you don’t believe that someone deserves the right to be them selves is asking an awful amount."

Absolutely agree.

However I think the point that maybe being badly made is that person getting an advantage based on previous gender?

But as I said.

If they are within tolerances of the sport then brilliant.

Sport in my opinion sport has the ability to transcend ( excuse the pun not trying to be funny) gender and gives people the ability to be more than just a gender.

And become their own dreams.

If that makes sense.

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By *ools and the brainCouple
over a year ago

couple, us we him her.


"Don't follow sports, don't care lol"

Why even comment then?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ustauseerTV/TS
over a year ago

Sedgemoor

I’m tired of my existence being a political matter. I’m a human being.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Does the issue in reverse happen?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I’m tired of my existence being a political matter. I’m a human being. "

I can only imagine. It must be exhausting

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By *ustauseerTV/TS
over a year ago

Sedgemoor


"Does the issue in reverse happen? "

What’d you mean?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Does the issue in reverse happen?

What’d you mean?"

I should have said converse - not reverse, the converse of the OP:

“ News circulating that trans women are dominating sports women sports”.

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By *ustauseerTV/TS
over a year ago

Sedgemoor

The entire title is a pajorative, designed to stoke the us vs them rederic

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The entire title is a pajorative, designed to stoke the us vs them rederic "

We've never been so polarised. Sadly I think "they" are winning.

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By *ustauseerTV/TS
over a year ago

Sedgemoor

Our PM hasn’t helped.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Should I have to alter my language to avoid upsetting a few minorities hours chose to go out of their way for their own selfish dreams. I'm discussing lia thomas in a pub in a communal area and when I agree I was n the same camp as jk Rowling and sharrow Davies I was cut down and called a misogynist . I was then put in in the minority in the group and the discussion was over

. I'm putting it out there in the same way that lia Thomas is doing and looking for the response. It's my belief that she is a self centred minority wanting everyone o accept her and going bout it the wrong way . I opened this to hear legitimate points of view in support of what she's doing, cos I just haven't seen one yet. She's put herself in the firing line to open debate , which is what I'm looking for, not mud slinging from the silencers. Which, I believe ws jks point of view, and anyone wo has tried to open this topic. I am a free thinking Liberal, and will listen to anything someone wants to say without resorting to name calling from the first comment I don't agree with, but im glad it's an honest and open site and will take on what anyone has to say to change my opinion."

Aren't terms like Liberal fascists and lefties name calling then?

And while we're at it, you literally cannot be a Liberal fascist

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Our PM hasn’t helped. "

Is he stealing medals too?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ustauseerTV/TS
over a year ago

Sedgemoor


"Our PM hasn’t helped.

Is he stealing medals too? "

He used dog whistles for anti trans people during pmq’s yesterday

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *egasus NobMan
over a year ago

Merton

Should be able to compete in non-physical sport but only to test yourself not take the trophy.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Our PM hasn’t helped.

Is he stealing medals too?

He used dog whistles for anti trans people during pmq’s yesterday "

So he quoted science. Sounded quite audible rather than covert.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Should be able to compete in non-physical sport but only to test yourself not take the trophy."

Very comforting, I mean …we are so used to getting crumbs from everybody that it shouldn’t make much of a difference after all! Thanks so much

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive. "
you lose about 20-30% of your muscle mass your ligaments shrink and most trans woman have a lower Testosterone level than a cis woman trophy really kicks after a few years the changes in myself have been remarkable and many cis female cyclists are way faster than me in my age range

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was waiting for this thread to show up, it because very mud throwing

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive. "

Yet out of the 27 records broken in the competition none of them were by Thomas and 18 of them were by a cisgender female. So where's her advantage?

She won 1 race, then came 5th and 8th in two other races. So where's her advantage?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive. you lose about 20-30% of your muscle mass your ligaments shrink and most trans woman have a lower Testosterone level than a cis woman trophy really kicks after a few years the changes in myself have been remarkable and many cis female cyclists are way faster than me in my age range "

Swimming is a bit different though. Cis women have a much bigger disadvantage in that particular sport. And you're talking a few years. Lia Thomas was competing as a male a couple of years ago.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive.

Yet out of the 27 records broken in the competition none of them were by Thomas and 18 of them were by a cisgender female. So where's her advantage?

She won 1 race, then came 5th and 8th in two other races. So where's her advantage?"

I read a wonderful article on the New York Times about the situation and they did have one thing right, we wouldn’t be talking about it in such a way, if trans women would end up always losing. But soon as one wins something, even just once, it becomes this huge shit show.

People would still make the same shit arguments if Lia passed totally as a woman (physically) or if she transitioned before puberty.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I was waiting for this thread to show up, it because very mud throwing "

I'm not trying to mud sling. I've been following the story with interest as an athlete. To be honest, I hadn't read some of the previous comments and I don't want to be associated with them. But I do think it's a topic that needs to be debated respectfully.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive.

Yet out of the 27 records broken in the competition none of them were by Thomas and 18 of them were by a cisgender female. So where's her advantage?

She won 1 race, then came 5th and 8th in two other races. So where's her advantage?

I read a wonderful article on the New York Times about the situation and they did have one thing right, we wouldn’t be talking about it in such a way, if trans women would end up always losing. But soon as one wins something, even just once, it becomes this huge shit show.

People would still make the same shit arguments if Lia passed totally as a woman (physically) or if she transitioned before puberty. "

Would having a trans men and trans women category work ? I'm guessing trans men have it worse today as they wouldn't be able to compete with the best.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive. you lose about 20-30% of your muscle mass your ligaments shrink and most trans woman have a lower Testosterone level than a cis woman trophy really kicks after a few years the changes in myself have been remarkable and many cis female cyclists are way faster than me in my age range

Swimming is a bit different though. Cis women have a much bigger disadvantage in that particular sport. And you're talking a few years. Lia Thomas was competing as a male a couple of years ago. "

She started taking hrt in 2019 and skipped the 2020/21 season so you could argue she hadn't competed as a male in 3 years.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive.

Yet out of the 27 records broken in the competition none of them were by Thomas and 18 of them were by a cisgender female. So where's her advantage?

She won 1 race, then came 5th and 8th in two other races. So where's her advantage?

I read a wonderful article on the New York Times about the situation and they did have one thing right, we wouldn’t be talking about it in such a way, if trans women would end up always losing. But soon as one wins something, even just once, it becomes this huge shit show.

People would still make the same shit arguments if Lia passed totally as a woman (physically) or if she transitioned before puberty.

Would having a trans men and trans women category work ? I'm guessing trans men have it worse today as they wouldn't be able to compete with the best. "

Works well with the Paralympics. So why not?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

Her winning time this season is actually the 15th fastest time over that distance. So where is her advantage?

What advantage did Katie ledecky have as she has held the fastest time over the same distance since 2017?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive.

Yet out of the 27 records broken in the competition none of them were by Thomas and 18 of them were by a cisgender female. So where's her advantage?

She won 1 race, then came 5th and 8th in two other races. So where's her advantage?

I read a wonderful article on the New York Times about the situation and they did have one thing right, we wouldn’t be talking about it in such a way, if trans women would end up always losing. But soon as one wins something, even just once, it becomes this huge shit show.

People would still make the same shit arguments if Lia passed totally as a woman (physically) or if she transitioned before puberty.

Would having a trans men and trans women category work ? I'm guessing trans men have it worse today as they wouldn't be able to compete with the best.

Works well with the Paralympics. So why not? "

Are trans people disabled?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Her winning time this season is actually the 15th fastest time over that distance. So where is her advantage?

What advantage did Katie ledecky have as she has held the fastest time over the same distance since 2017?"

It's not about sport from what I can see. It's a weapon in the culture wars.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive. you lose about 20-30% of your muscle mass your ligaments shrink and most trans woman have a lower Testosterone level than a cis woman trophy really kicks after a few years the changes in myself have been remarkable and many cis female cyclists are way faster than me in my age range

Swimming is a bit different though. Cis women have a much bigger disadvantage in that particular sport. And you're talking a few years. Lia Thomas was competing as a male a couple of years ago.

She started taking hrt in 2019 and skipped the 2020/21 season so you could argue she hadn't competed as a male in 3 years. "

Fair enough. I'm reading more about her data tonight and there was a news article today about it.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Her winning time this season is actually the 15th fastest time over that distance. So where is her advantage?

What advantage did Katie ledecky have as she has held the fastest time over the same distance since 2017?

It's not about sport from what I can see. It's a weapon in the culture wars."

Oh I get that. I'd just like the people proclaiming she has an advantage to evidence what advantage she has given her actual performance. If she had such an advantage she'd be smashing records left, right and centre when in reality she won a single race in the 15th fastest time ever.

Sane as the weightlifter last year who bombed out despite her 'obvious' advantage over the other female athletes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive.

Yet out of the 27 records broken in the competition none of them were by Thomas and 18 of them were by a cisgender female. So where's her advantage?

She won 1 race, then came 5th and 8th in two other races. So where's her advantage?

I read a wonderful article on the New York Times about the situation and they did have one thing right, we wouldn’t be talking about it in such a way, if trans women would end up always losing. But soon as one wins something, even just once, it becomes this huge shit show.

People would still make the same shit arguments if Lia passed totally as a woman (physically) or if she transitioned before puberty.

Would having a trans men and trans women category work ? I'm guessing trans men have it worse today as they wouldn't be able to compete with the best.

Works well with the Paralympics. So why not?

Are trans people disabled?"
not sure they meant it like that. But different classes allow for more inclusive games.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Her winning time this season is actually the 15th fastest time over that distance. So where is her advantage?

What advantage did Katie ledecky have as she has held the fastest time over the same distance since 2017?

It's not about sport from what I can see. It's a weapon in the culture wars.

Oh I get that. I'd just like the people proclaiming she has an advantage to evidence what advantage she has given her actual performance. If she had such an advantage she'd be smashing records left, right and centre when in reality she won a single race in the 15th fastest time ever.

Sane as the weightlifter last year who bombed out despite her 'obvious' advantage over the other female athletes. "

Yep. It's a non story. Dig beneath the headlines, which few do, and there's nothing of weight.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive.

Yet out of the 27 records broken in the competition none of them were by Thomas and 18 of them were by a cisgender female. So where's her advantage?

She won 1 race, then came 5th and 8th in two other races. So where's her advantage?

I read a wonderful article on the New York Times about the situation and they did have one thing right, we wouldn’t be talking about it in such a way, if trans women would end up always losing. But soon as one wins something, even just once, it becomes this huge shit show.

People would still make the same shit arguments if Lia passed totally as a woman (physically) or if she transitioned before puberty.

Would having a trans men and trans women category work ? I'm guessing trans men have it worse today as they wouldn't be able to compete with the best.

Works well with the Paralympics. So why not?

Are trans people disabled?"

I think you did not comprehend. the point was one of separation for fairer competition. It was not literal or meant as a suggestion of disability. But those born without legs have their own comp. So why not other categories of competition too? It may not be the answer. But surely worthy of consideration?

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive.

Yet out of the 27 records broken in the competition none of them were by Thomas and 18 of them were by a cisgender female. So where's her advantage?

She won 1 race, then came 5th and 8th in two other races. So where's her advantage?

I read a wonderful article on the New York Times about the situation and they did have one thing right, we wouldn’t be talking about it in such a way, if trans women would end up always losing. But soon as one wins something, even just once, it becomes this huge shit show.

People would still make the same shit arguments if Lia passed totally as a woman (physically) or if she transitioned before puberty.

Would having a trans men and trans women category work ? I'm guessing trans men have it worse today as they wouldn't be able to compete with the best.

Works well with the Paralympics. So why not? "

Except it really doesn't! You wouldn't BELIEVE the wrangling and bitching and attempted cheating within the Paralympic classification system. Oh. And some of us are the "wrong" kind of disabled. I'm disabled, but not classifiable under IPC rules and so if I was good enough at wheelchair sport, I'd be excluded.

I don't want to hijack the discussion about the transgender sports issue; however, to suggest that the classifying systems of Paralympic sport works well is frankly laughable to anyone who is involved in disability sport.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it's a tricky subject and in the case of Lia Thomas, I do think she has an unfair advantage. It's not her fault - she's followed the rules. But, the rules need to be reassessed as it's obvious that going through puberty as a male has given her a physical advantage. When she competed as a male, she was average. She is quicker than female athletes that have been taking steroids.

And I worry that the situation could be abused, especially in countries like Russia where they're so competitive.

Yet out of the 27 records broken in the competition none of them were by Thomas and 18 of them were by a cisgender female. So where's her advantage?

She won 1 race, then came 5th and 8th in two other races. So where's her advantage?

I read a wonderful article on the New York Times about the situation and they did have one thing right, we wouldn’t be talking about it in such a way, if trans women would end up always losing. But soon as one wins something, even just once, it becomes this huge shit show.

People would still make the same shit arguments if Lia passed totally as a woman (physically) or if she transitioned before puberty.

Would having a trans men and trans women category work ? I'm guessing trans men have it worse today as they wouldn't be able to compete with the best.

Works well with the Paralympics. So why not?

Except it really doesn't! You wouldn't BELIEVE the wrangling and bitching and attempted cheating within the Paralympic classification system. Oh. And some of us are the "wrong" kind of disabled. I'm disabled, but not classifiable under IPC rules and so if I was good enough at wheelchair sport, I'd be excluded.

I don't want to hijack the discussion about the transgender sports issue; however, to suggest that the classifying systems of Paralympic sport works well is frankly laughable to anyone who is involved in disability sport. "

The comment was intended to suggest that suggest how the classification (as you call it) works well between disabled and non disabled. Without any intimate knowledge of the IPC workings have no idea of the internal effectiveness. But should the Paralympics therefore be scrapped and all classified as disabled be forced to compete with so called able bodied?

What your knowledgable response illustrates is that everyone has an angle and unless that angle favour them then there is scope for discontent. So maybe the classification approach was a bad idea. Lets scrap the Paralympics and gender based competition. Lets have one comp - all equally eligible to compete.

Would that work?

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

The Liberal fascists want to and have succeeded in cancelling freedom of of speech in universities for people expressing beliefs opposed to their ideals instead of opening honest debate. I was cancelled tonight in a communal area for supporting jk Rowling in defense of safe spaces for women. I'm tolerant of all corners, but feel that there has to be consideration from all sides in society. Shouting I'm here I'm queen accept me now is never going to work, and actually does more harm than good to the whole community in general. That's what I believe lia Thomas's modus operandum is, and while it has brought attention to the trans population, I feel its brought far more division. As for Liberal fascists being counter intuitive, what about feminist misogyny? If you choose to be different. Accept yourself for yourself. Be happy with yourself and others will accept you. If you choose to be different and demand to be accepted by everyone then you are probably a bit of a dick anyway and should accept that and try not to be duck about it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The Liberal fascists want to and have succeeded in cancelling freedom of of speech in universities for people expressing beliefs opposed to their ideals instead of opening honest debate. I was cancelled tonight in a communal area for supporting jk Rowling in defense of safe spaces for women. I'm tolerant of all corners, but feel that there has to be consideration from all sides in society. Shouting I'm here I'm queen accept me now is never going to work, and actually does more harm than good to the whole community in general. That's what I believe lia Thomas's modus operandum is, and while it has brought attention to the trans population, I feel its brought far more division. As for Liberal fascists being counter intuitive, what about feminist misogyny? If you choose to be different. Accept yourself for yourself. Be happy with yourself and others will accept you. If you choose to be different and demand to be accepted by everyone then you are probably a bit of a dick anyway and should accept that and try not to be duck about it. "

If you're cancelled then how comes you still get to post comments?

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

Apologies for the typos, builders fingers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The Liberal fascists want to and have succeeded in cancelling freedom of of speech in universities for people expressing beliefs opposed to their ideals instead of opening honest debate. I was cancelled tonight in a communal area for supporting jk Rowling in defense of safe spaces for women. I'm tolerant of all corners, but feel that there has to be consideration from all sides in society. Shouting I'm here I'm queen accept me now is never going to work, and actually does more harm than good to the whole community in general. That's what I believe lia Thomas's modus operandum is, and while it has brought attention to the trans population, I feel its brought far more division. As for Liberal fascists being counter intuitive, what about feminist misogyny? If you choose to be different. Accept yourself for yourself. Be happy with yourself and others will accept you. If you choose to be different and demand to be accepted by everyone then you are probably a bit of a dick anyway and should accept that and try not to be duck about it. "
what do you mean by "I was cancelled".

And to be clear, you are talking about cis-women safe spaces. Or whatever the right term is.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Hotwife Jenny - my point above about the Paralympic classification system (which is its official name, not what I have chosen to call it) is that even lovely disabled people try and cheat the "system". People have been found to feign the extent of muscle weakness or have stopped taking prescribed medication on the day of classification assessment, to ensure they are maximally disabled on the day, to ensure they get into the lowest possible class. We have athletes with congenital conditions criticising those with acquired disability because those people have had some period of "normal" function. We have athletes with less visible disabilities being ridiculed and accused of fakery by athletes with overt disability.

The whole Oscar Pistorius should he/shouldn't he compete alongside able bodied runners served to demonstrate that ABs don't necessarily want disabled athletes in their competition because they perceive some sort of benefit to the disabled athlete.

This is the reality of disability sport - riven with infighting, criticism, assumption and exactly the same dog-eat-dog attitude that makes the transgender debate rumble on, that makes athletes choose to use drugs or do other nefarious things to enhance performance. This underlying lack of trust among athletes is why people immediately jump to the " but trans athletes must be trying to cheat/get a gold medal etc", rather than actually looking at the underlying science.

If you want to see how shabby disability sport classification is by the way, have a read on how British Wheelchair Basketball nearly got thrown out of the Paralympics altogether and read about the disabled athletes who have been declassified and declared ineligible to compete. These are people too disabled to compete in able bodied sport. We are "the others" - exemplifying how the segregation of disabled/non disabled does not work, even before you look into the classification system.

I have no idea what the solution is to the debate about transgender people's inclusion in sport, because whatever approach is taken, someone, somewhere will dislike it and the arguing will rumble on. Exactly the same as in disability sports.

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

We can all change who we want to be. Accepting ourselves first and being mindfull of those that don't is considerate.

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

I don't think it's been as strong since the war, stop whinging and get training.

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver


"I'm glad this discussion hasn't yet been shut down by the Liberal fascists that refuse to listen to differing opinions. The question I want to ask, and I'm not a medical expert. But wouldn't having a large amount of testosterone in your body for 25 years of natural development and then taking female hormones for six months give an unfair advantage in competitive sport? I'm standing up for womens rights here, yet get called a bigoted misogynist for expressing a fact in front of folk trying to stand up for a small minority who want to change the way the majority of people think. My argument is, if it was your daughter competing against a so called fifteen year old trans person who looked 25 but couldn't prove it because of no identification would that be OK? Or should we just scrap competitive sport because the Liberal lefties don't agree with that either?

Have you looked at the personal best times of the swimmer who has recently been in the news after not finishing first in a swim meet. Surely if she has such a great advantage having trained as a man for some time she'd have smashed the win?

I don't know why I'm bothering replying to you though as the language you have used makes it very clear you are not up for a reasoned debate on this matter. Anyone hi starts off by calling those who differ in opinion to yours. Liberal fascist is not wanting to discuss nothing reasonably. "

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

That was my point, I was called a misogynist and cut off.

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By *xxLandNxxxCouple
over a year ago

Nuneaton


"I don't think it's been as strong since the war, stop whinging and get training."

Sorry but is that quote aimed at women to stop whinging and get training?

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver


"I don't think it's been as strong since the war, stop whinging and get training.

Sorry but is that quote aimed at women to stop whinging and get training? "

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

I was being a misogynist in response to the lady wanting womens sport to become a higher profile. It was meant tongue in cheek. Hope some of you have a sense of humour.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"News circulating that trans women are dominating sports women sports.

Just wondering on how sports would turn to and how can this be balanced?

"
It's just one of those things just got to suck it up.

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver


"Hotwife Jenny - my point above about the Paralympic classification system (which is its official name, not what I have chosen to call it) is that even lovely disabled people try and cheat the "system". People have been found to feign the extent of muscle weakness or have stopped taking prescribed medication on the day of classification assessment, to ensure they are maximally disabled on the day, to ensure they get into the lowest possible class. We have athletes with congenital conditions criticising those with acquired disability because those people have had some period of "normal" function. We have athletes with less visible disabilities being ridiculed and accused of fakery by athletes with overt disability.

The whole Oscar Pistorius should he/shouldn't he compete alongside able bodied runners served to demonstrate that ABs don't necessarily want disabled athletes in their competition because they perceive some sort of benefit to the disabled athlete.

This is the reality of disability sport - riven with infighting, criticism, assumption and exactly the same dog-eat-dog attitude that makes the transgender debate rumble on, that makes athletes choose to use drugs or do other nefarious things to enhance performance. This underlying lack of trust among athletes is why people immediately jump to the " but trans athletes must be trying to cheat/get a gold medal etc", rather than actually looking at the underlying science.

If you want to see how shabby disability sport classification is by the way, have a read on how British Wheelchair Basketball nearly got thrown out of the Paralympics altogether and read about the disabled athletes who have been declassified and declared ineligible to compete. These are people too disabled to compete in able bodied sport. We are "the others" - exemplifying how the segregation of disabled/non disabled does not work, even before you look into the classification system.

I have no idea what the solution is to the debate about transgender people's inclusion in sport, because whatever approach is taken, someone, somewhere will dislike it and the arguing will rumble on. Exactly the same as in disability sports."

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

Excellent point very well put.

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By *lan4FFUUNNMan
over a year ago

Genoa Italy and Liverpool


"No suprise really. Serena Williams and his brother Venus have been on top of women's tennis for over a decade. "

I would love to fuck Serena, she has an amazing body.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"That was my point, I was called a misogynist and cut off. "

Cancelling is when you lose your job, income, or when people refuse to work with you because of your views. You had a disagreement you weren't cancelled from what I can see.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Cancelled is what entitled people call consequences

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cancelled is what entitled people call consequences "

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

Love the way trans people have created a new expression for genders. Cis female? I'm guessing you mean a female as opposed to a trans female. I'm deeply offended by this term "cis" . What is wrong with using terms that the majority understand without having to Google "trans terminology". Please respond with a sentence starting with ...so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Love the way trans people have created a new expression for genders. Cis female? I'm guessing you mean a female as opposed to a trans female. I'm deeply offended by this term "cis" . What is wrong with using terms that the majority understand without having to Google "trans terminology". Please respond with a sentence starting with ...so."

I guess language changes. There was a time when twerk, supernova, selfie, lol and M25 were new terms.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"Love the way trans people have created a new expression for genders. Cis female? I'm guessing you mean a female as opposed to a trans female. I'm deeply offended by this term "cis" . What is wrong with using terms that the majority understand without having to Google "trans terminology". Please respond with a sentence starting with ...so."

Cis and trans are scientific prefixes, used to describe the arrangement of atoms in molecules. Cis-trans isomers are molecules containing exactly the same atoms, in the same proportions, but arranged differently.

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver


"Cancelled is what entitled people call consequences

"

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By *he SeekerMan
over a year ago

Kinver

Is nobody else entitled to an opinion that differs from yours?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Hotwife Jenny - my point above about the Paralympic classification system (which is its official name, not what I have chosen to call it) is that even lovely disabled people try and cheat the "system". People have been found to feign the extent of muscle weakness or have stopped taking prescribed medication on the day of classification assessment, to ensure they are maximally disabled on the day, to ensure they get into the lowest possible class. We have athletes with congenital conditions criticising those with acquired disability because those people have had some period of "normal" function. We have athletes with less visible disabilities being ridiculed and accused of fakery by athletes with overt disability.

The whole Oscar Pistorius should he/shouldn't he compete alongside able bodied runners served to demonstrate that ABs don't necessarily want disabled athletes in their competition because they perceive some sort of benefit to the disabled athlete.

This is the reality of disability sport - riven with infighting, criticism, assumption and exactly the same dog-eat-dog attitude that makes the transgender debate rumble on, that makes athletes choose to use drugs or do other nefarious things to enhance performance. This underlying lack of trust among athletes is why people immediately jump to the " but trans athletes must be trying to cheat/get a gold medal etc", rather than actually looking at the underlying science.

If you want to see how shabby disability sport classification is by the way, have a read on how British Wheelchair Basketball nearly got thrown out of the Paralympics altogether and read about the disabled athletes who have been declassified and declared ineligible to compete. These are people too disabled to compete in able bodied sport. We are "the others" - exemplifying how the segregation of disabled/non disabled does not work, even before you look into the classification system.

I have no idea what the solution is to the debate about transgender people's inclusion in sport, because whatever approach is taken, someone, somewhere will dislike it and the arguing will rumble on. Exactly the same as in disability sports."

You’ve simply repeated the same thing with more words.

So do we scrap the Paralympics and the gender events of the other Olympics to avoid the bickering? The fastest/strongest/best would compete no matter what.

(I was never commenting on the internal classifications if the Paralympics btw- wet to that i have no knowledge or interest; the analogy was with regards to its very existence as a means of helping to promote fairness of competition. Everyone games the system. That’s the way life works. It is not confined to one niche area of life.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"No suprise really. Serena Williams and his brother Venus have been on top of women's tennis for over a decade.

I would love to fuck Serena, she has an amazing body. "

She is, indeed, very hot. Didn't she casually win the US Open while 3 months pregnant too? Ffs.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Is nobody else entitled to an opinion that differs from yours?"

Hit "reply and quote" then we know what post / who you're referring to.

I specifically asked for your opinions. You haven't really offered any specifics yet. You just said you were cancelled while defending JK Rowling on safe spaces for women.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"

So do we scrap the Paralympics and the gender events of the other Olympics to avoid the bickering? The fastest/strongest/best would compete no matter what.

(I was never commenting on the internal classifications if the Paralympics btw- wet to that i have no knowledge or interest; the analogy was with regards to its very existence as a means of helping to promote fairness of competition. Everyone games the system. That’s the way life works. It is not confined to one niche area of life. "

But what about the disabled people who are the wrong sort of disabled? Which system do they compete in? That's the point - the segregation of disabled/non disabled in sport does not "work well", as you suggested. It works pretty shabbily, actually, and leaves a lot of people unable to compete.

I said that I had no idea what the solution to any of this is, because however anyone starts categorising human beings (on disability, gender or whatever), someone, somewhere will disagree and some will try to circumvent the rules anyway.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"Cancelled is what entitled people call consequences"

"Consequences" is the word right-on people use to justify their attacks on others who have the temerity to think differently.

We wouldn't accept someone saying "if a black man tries to come in this pub there'll be consequences", and we shouldn't accept a group trying to ruin the life of someone they disagree with and calling it "consequences".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

So do we scrap the Paralympics and the gender events of the other Olympics to avoid the bickering? The fastest/strongest/best would compete no matter what.

(I was never commenting on the internal classifications if the Paralympics btw- wet to that i have no knowledge or interest; the analogy was with regards to its very existence as a means of helping to promote fairness of competition. Everyone games the system. That’s the way life works. It is not confined to one niche area of life.

But what about the disabled people who are the wrong sort of disabled? Which system do they compete in? That's the point - the segregation of disabled/non disabled in sport does not "work well", as you suggested. It works pretty shabbily, actually, and leaves a lot of people unable to compete.

I said that I had no idea what the solution to any of this is, because however anyone starts categorising human beings (on disability, gender or whatever), someone, somewhere will disagree and some will try to circumvent the rules anyway. "

Scrap it then. It would save a lot lf carbon. Next.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cancelled is what entitled people call consequences

"Consequences" is the word right-on people use to justify their attacks on others who have the temerity to think differently.

We wouldn't accept someone saying "if a black man tries to come in this pub there'll be consequences", and we shouldn't accept a group trying to ruin the life of someone they disagree with and calling it "consequences"."

You've never been anywhere where, or spoken to a person for whom, a black person was not welcome?

Show me someone who's life has been ruined for saying trans people are not welcome. JK Rowling? Hardly

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By *xxLandNxxxCouple
over a year ago

Nuneaton


"I was being a misogynist in response to the lady wanting womens sport to become a higher profile. It was meant tongue in cheek. Hope some of you have a sense of humour."

Sorry must of skipped some of the chat. Think we’ve been conditioned to not be shocked by views of others these days.

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By *al kalMan
over a year ago

london


"Love the way trans people have created a new expression for genders. Cis female? I'm guessing you mean a female as opposed to a trans female. I'm deeply offended by this term "cis" . What is wrong with using terms that the majority understand without having to Google "trans terminology". Please respond with a sentence starting with ...so.

Cis and trans are scientific prefixes, used to describe the arrangement of atoms in molecules. Cis-trans isomers are molecules containing exactly the same atoms, in the same proportions, but arranged differently. "

Why are you putting blame on transgender people for this “new terminology”? It somewhat comes across as you have some gripe/phobia about trans folk btw.

This terminology originates from early 1900s German sexological literature, and reference later by sexologist \ physicians.

You may review an Oxford English Dictionary if it’s too problematic to use Google to educate yourself with (these) unfamiliar terms.

Cisgender combines the Latin prefix cis-, meaning “on this side,” with gender, in contrast to transgender, where the prefix trans- signals something is “across” or “on the other side.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"Love the way trans people have created a new expression for genders. Cis female? I'm guessing you mean a female as opposed to a trans female. I'm deeply offended by this term "cis" . What is wrong with using terms that the majority understand without having to Google "trans terminology". Please respond with a sentence starting with ...so.

Cis and trans are scientific prefixes, used to describe the arrangement of atoms in molecules. Cis-trans isomers are molecules containing exactly the same atoms, in the same proportions, but arranged differently.

Why are you putting blame on transgender people for this “new terminology”? It somewhat comes across as you have some gripe/phobia about trans folk btw.

This terminology originates from early 1900s German sexological literature, and reference later by sexologist \ physicians.

You may review an Oxford English Dictionary if it’s too problematic to use Google to educate yourself with (these) unfamiliar terms.

Cisgender combines the Latin prefix cis-, meaning “on this side,” with gender, in contrast to transgender, where the prefix trans- signals something is “across” or “on the other side.

"

Woah there, cowboy! I haven't dissed the terms cis or trans. I've tried to explain their usage in scientific language to demonstrate that they are not "new" terms and are not dreamed up by anyone to "invent" different genders or whatever. I suggest you reply directly to the person who DID make that kind of dismissive comments

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

None of my comments on this thread (or any other) could possibly be construed as transphobic either, because they're not and I'm not.

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By *al kalMan
over a year ago

london


"None of my comments on this thread (or any other) could possibly be construed as transphobic either, because they're not and I'm not. "

It was intended for the person you responded to. This is my bad. None of this applies to you.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"None of my comments on this thread (or any other) could possibly be construed as transphobic either, because they're not and I'm not.

It was intended for the person you responded to. This is my bad. None of this applies to you."

Thank you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"None of my comments on this thread (or any other) could possibly be construed as transphobic either, because they're not and I'm not. "

Also no kittens were harmed in the posting of this thread

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Love the way trans people have created a new expression for genders. Cis female? I'm guessing you mean a female as opposed to a trans female. I'm deeply offended by this term "cis" . What is wrong with using terms that the majority understand without having to Google "trans terminology". Please respond with a sentence starting with ...so.

Cis and trans are scientific prefixes, used to describe the arrangement of atoms in molecules. Cis-trans isomers are molecules containing exactly the same atoms, in the same proportions, but arranged differently.

Why are you putting blame on transgender people for this “new terminology”? It somewhat comes across as you have some gripe/phobia about trans folk btw.

This terminology originates from early 1900s German sexological literature, and reference later by sexologist \ physicians.

You may review an Oxford English Dictionary if it’s too problematic to use Google to educate yourself with (these) unfamiliar terms.

Cisgender combines the Latin prefix cis-, meaning “on this side,” with gender, in contrast to transgender, where the prefix trans- signals something is “across” or “on the other side.

"

Wikipedia needs an update then as it suggests the term is no more than 25 years old. Not arguing. Just stating what found after researching following your post.

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By *al kalMan
over a year ago

london


"Love the way trans people have created a new expression for genders. Cis female? I'm guessing you mean a female as opposed to a trans female. I'm deeply offended by this term "cis" . What is wrong with using terms that the majority understand without having to Google "trans terminology". Please respond with a sentence starting with ...so."

Why are you putting blame on transgender people for this “new terminology”? It somewhat comes across as you have some gripe/phobia about trans folk btw.

This terminology originates from early 1900s German sexological literature, and reference later by sexologist \ physicians.

You may review an Oxford English Dictionary if it’s too problematic to use Google to educate yourself with (these) unfamiliar terms.

Cisgender combines the Latin prefix cis-, meaning “on this side,” with gender, in contrast to transgender, where the prefix trans- signals something is “across” or “on the other side.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"None of my comments on this thread (or any other) could possibly be construed as transphobic either, because they're not and I'm not.

It was intended for the person you responded to. This is my bad. None of this applies to you."

No “bad” you did what everyone else does and quote which combines all previous quotes into a single quite. The “bad” is with the forum software or people reading knowing how the system works. It was quite obvious how your post was meant to be read. And it should be quite obvious that the scientific explanation of the prefix terminology was in nothing other than factual.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach


"You've never been anywhere where, or spoken to a person for whom, a black person was not welcome?

Show me someone who's life has been ruined for saying trans people are not welcome. JK Rowling? Hardly"

Yes, I've met racists. I know they exist. I can't see how that invalidates my point.

JK Rowling certainly suffers a vast amount of abuse, and has had paid appearances cancelled because of the controversy. She has without doubt lost a lot of money over it, and may never be published again. Even if this weren't the case, that doesn't invalidate my point.

My point is that "consequences" is a word that should only be used by a disinterested observer. If you're talking about "consequences", but you're the one intending to dish out those "consequences", then you're making a threat. It is not acceptable to threaten someone just because they have a different opinion to you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 25/03/22 00:32:40]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"[Removed by belligerent sod who should go to bed, thanks for the engagement at 25/03/22 00:32:40]"

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By *al kalMan
over a year ago

london


"None of my comments on this thread (or any other) could possibly be construed as transphobic either, because they're not and I'm not.

It was intended for the person you responded to. This is my bad. None of this applies to you.

No “bad” you did what everyone else does and quote which combines all previous quotes into a single quite. The “bad” is with the forum software or people reading knowing how the system works. It was quite obvious how your post was meant to be read. And it should be quite obvious that the scientific explanation of the prefix terminology was in nothing other than factual. "

Yes it was factual and correct. The Latin terminology was added to makes it slightly easier to understand…… just helping those who find it problematic to use search engines

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham

Feels a little sad to see womens sports being ruined by these things. I feel sorry for the girls who fought and trained hard and gave up so much for their sport to be placed in an unfair competition

Sad times for women sports

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Feels a little sad to see womens sports being ruined by these things. I feel sorry for the girls who fought and trained hard and gave up so much for their sport to be placed in an unfair competition

Sad times for women sports "

But in this case....how? She won one event and not in a particularly spectacular time. She cane 5th and 8th in her other events. Hardly dominating the sport. In fact the person dominating by breaking 18 of the 27 records at the event isn't even being talked about because people are trying to blow this up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think this would present a problem even if it was a beauty competition and the winner of Miss Universe is a trans woman.

Somebody would just say… but she took away the trophy from my daughter, who’s an actual woman. Shame!!!!!! She’s a man

I think “us vs them” will always play for some and with polarised view, especially on certain platforms like twitter and YouTube, no matter what

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham


"Feels a little sad to see womens sports being ruined by these things. I feel sorry for the girls who fought and trained hard and gave up so much for their sport to be placed in an unfair competition

Sad times for women sports

But in this case....how? She won one event and not in a particularly spectacular time. She cane 5th and 8th in her other events. Hardly dominating the sport. In fact the person dominating by breaking 18 of the 27 records at the event isn't even being talked about because people are trying to blow this up. "

So she placed ahead of people because of a possible unfair advantage

That’s why I feel bad for the women sports right now.

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By *ust RachelTV/TS
over a year ago

Horsham

When you look at the physical and muscle mass of someone like Rachel Mckinnon, compared to other female track cyclists. It does seem a bit unfair as Rachel is twice the size of the women, she was competing against on the track.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cancelled is what entitled people call consequences

"Consequences" is the word right-on people use to justify their attacks on others who have the temerity to think differently.

We wouldn't accept someone saying "if a black man tries to come in this pub there'll be consequences", and we shouldn't accept a group trying to ruin the life of someone they disagree with and calling it "consequences"."

Black people were/are excluded because of who they are, not what they said and did.

Also: imagine comparing yourself to that. Get some perspective, Jesus.

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By * and R cple4Couple
over a year ago

swansea


"When you look at the physical and muscle mass of someone like Rachel Mckinnon, compared to other female track cyclists. It does seem a bit unfair as Rachel is twice the size of the women, she was competing against on the track."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think this would present a problem even if it was a beauty competition and the winner of Miss Universe is a trans woman.

Somebody would just say… but she took away the trophy from my daughter, who’s an actual woman. Shame!!!!!! She’s a man

I think “us vs them” will always play for some and with polarised view, especially on certain platforms like twitter and YouTube, no matter what "

Maybe but physical beauty is a completely different thing from physical strength and athleticism.

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By *agicM53XMan
over a year ago

Orpington

Although as a physical therapist I would appreciate a healthy conversation about this matter ( specifically regarding the physiological aspect of the debate)...I did come to the conclusion though, that this conversation is between female athletes and trans people. If female athletes are not ok with what is happening then they should speak up, if trans people are not happy they should speak up. As a cis white male (regardless what my opinion and stand is ) I will either be labeled sexist by some feminists or transfobic by some trans activists, no matter what "side" I choose.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think this would present a problem even if it was a beauty competition and the winner of Miss Universe is a trans woman.

Somebody would just say… but she took away the trophy from my daughter, who’s an actual woman. Shame!!!!!! She’s a man

I think “us vs them” will always play for some and with polarised view, especially on certain platforms like twitter and YouTube, no matter what

Maybe but physical beauty is a completely different thing from physical strength and athleticism.

"

Obviously beauty and strength are different.

my argument tho was to say, some people will never be happy for trans folks to win anything , regardless.

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts


"Although as a physical therapist I would appreciate a healthy conversation about this matter ( specifically regarding the physiological aspect of the debate)...I did come to the conclusion though, that this conversation is between female athletes and trans people. If female athletes are not ok with what is happening then they should speak up, if trans people are not happy they should speak up. As a cis white male (regardless what my opinion and stand is ) I will either be labeled sexist by some feminists or transfobic by some trans activists, no matter what "side" I choose. "

I don’t think I’m entitled to an opinion really as I don’t know enough about it but sadly this is probably true.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Are there examples of trans men competing successfully in men's competitions?

It seems to me that if you have an equal number doing this with similar levels of success then it's a non issue. If however there are significantly fewer trans men competing successfully than trans women it would suggest that there is in fact a biological advantage.

Not sure how this affects ultra endurance events where men and women tend to have a more level playing field - the Spine race is one example where the course record is held by a woman (one who was expressing milk during the event no less). The Trans Continental cycle race was won quite spectacularly by a woman in 2019.

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

Is it too easy a solution to suggest trans have their own grouping?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Feels a little sad to see womens sports being ruined by these things. I feel sorry for the girls who fought and trained hard and gave up so much for their sport to be placed in an unfair competition

Sad times for women sports

But in this case....how? She won one event and not in a particularly spectacular time. She cane 5th and 8th in her other events. Hardly dominating the sport. In fact the person dominating by breaking 18 of the 27 records at the event isn't even being talked about because people are trying to blow this up.

So she placed ahead of people because of a possible unfair advantage

That’s why I feel bad for the women sports right now. "

But in the 15th fastest time for that distance so we're the other athletes even that competitive really?

I guess you could argue that they are only competing against the group on that particular day maybe but of they're serious about their sport they aren't anywhere close to competitive times if they can't beat the 15th best time.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham


"I think this would present a problem even if it was a beauty competition and the winner of Miss Universe is a trans woman.

Somebody would just say… but she took away the trophy from my daughter, who’s an actual woman. Shame!!!!!! She’s a man

I think “us vs them” will always play for some and with polarised view, especially on certain platforms like twitter and YouTube, no matter what

Maybe but physical beauty is a completely different thing from physical strength and athleticism.

Obviously beauty and strength are different.

my argument tho was to say, some people will never be happy for trans folks to win anything , regardless. "

I would agree. But you’ll find the arguments around athletic sports to be far more based in fact than opinion because we have numbers to back up advantages

Where as in vanity base sports it’s all down to opinion and judging criteria. You can’t argue who won a race, you can argue who won a beauty contest.

The earlier someone transitions the muddier the waters get on unfair advantages. But they can never be truly dismissed. The question is how far are sports and athletes going to let things slide when trading off “fair sports” for “inclusivity”

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Is it too easy a solution to suggest trans have their own grouping?"

Excluding them from the gender they have fought so hard to be recognised as?

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham


"Is it too easy a solution to suggest trans have their own grouping?

Excluding them from the gender they have fought so hard to be recognised as?"

Didn't think so

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham


"Feels a little sad to see womens sports being ruined by these things. I feel sorry for the girls who fought and trained hard and gave up so much for their sport to be placed in an unfair competition

Sad times for women sports

But in this case....how? She won one event and not in a particularly spectacular time. She cane 5th and 8th in her other events. Hardly dominating the sport. In fact the person dominating by breaking 18 of the 27 records at the event isn't even being talked about because people are trying to blow this up.

So she placed ahead of people because of a possible unfair advantage

That’s why I feel bad for the women sports right now.

But in the 15th fastest time for that distance so we're the other athletes even that competitive really?

I guess you could argue that they are only competing against the group on that particular day maybe but of they're serious about their sport they aren't anywhere close to competitive times if they can't beat the 15th best time. "

Before we even continue, do you understand what an unfair advantage is? Because you seem to keep bringing up her finishing position

Unfair advantage has nothing to do with where you place or how many records you break or how fast you were. If a guy takes steroids in boxing and loses it doesn’t justify his unfair advantage. If you steal a few pink 50s from the bank in monopoly but land in jail next turn, it doesn’t equal things out

I don’t care where someone places, or at what level of competition. I just want fair competition

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Is it too easy a solution to suggest trans have their own grouping?"

Honestly how many trans people do you think are there?

And out of those, how many do you think are professional athletes?

Like let’s get a grip on numbers please!

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"Are there examples of trans men competing successfully in men's competitions?

It seems to me that if you have an equal number doing this with similar levels of success then it's a non issue. If however there are significantly fewer trans men competing successfully than trans women it would suggest that there is in fact a biological advantage.

Not sure how this affects ultra endurance events where men and women tend to have a more level playing field - the Spine race is one example where the course record is held by a woman (one who was expressing milk during the event no less). The Trans Continental cycle race was won quite spectacularly by a woman in 2019. "

The only example I can find is Chris Mosier, who competed in the 2016 World Champs (men's division) for the USA in sprint duathlon. I'm not sure where he finished in that but he isn't listed as having achieved huge things from the athletic standpoint (not being rude here). There don't seem to be any examples of MTF athletes competing at the highest level in men's sports, at least not yet.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Are there examples of trans men competing successfully in men's competitions?

It seems to me that if you have an equal number doing this with similar levels of success then it's a non issue. If however there are significantly fewer trans men competing successfully than trans women it would suggest that there is in fact a biological advantage.

Not sure how this affects ultra endurance events where men and women tend to have a more level playing field - the Spine race is one example where the course record is held by a woman (one who was expressing milk during the event no less). The Trans Continental cycle race was won quite spectacularly by a woman in 2019. "

It's the same with open water swimming. Female bodies seem to have the edge when it comes to endurance sports. In cycling, we have different bikes as women have powerful hips.

It's not just about testosterone. Male bodies have bigger hearts and bigger lung capacities. As a result, male bodies have higher VO2s (the amount of oxygen in your blood) which is why they're generally faster and more powerful.

So, whilst it appears that Lia is not going to dominate as much as first thought, it's still important to think about rethinking the rules about how long athletes need to be taking hormones before the biological effects become equal.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think this would present a problem even if it was a beauty competition and the winner of Miss Universe is a trans woman.

Somebody would just say… but she took away the trophy from my daughter, who’s an actual woman. Shame!!!!!! She’s a man

I think “us vs them” will always play for some and with polarised view, especially on certain platforms like twitter and YouTube, no matter what

Maybe but physical beauty is a completely different thing from physical strength and athleticism.

Obviously beauty and strength are different.

my argument tho was to say, some people will never be happy for trans folks to win anything , regardless.

I would agree. But you’ll find the arguments around athletic sports to be far more based in fact than opinion because we have numbers to back up advantages

Where as in vanity base sports it’s all down to opinion and judging criteria. You can’t argue who won a race, you can argue who won a beauty contest.

The earlier someone transitions the muddier the waters get on unfair advantages. But they can never be truly dismissed. The question is how far are sports and athletes going to let things slide when trading off “fair sports” for “inclusivity” "

But so do we open up to only those who transition as kids? So like 12-13?

But hey , no. Because that’d be immoral to have a kid transition so young. Isn’t that what they say?

Damn if you do, damned If you don’t!!!

The fact that you can argue who won something, can be even worse and be called a …fix!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Are there examples of trans men competing successfully in men's competitions?

It seems to me that if you have an equal number doing this with similar levels of success then it's a non issue. If however there are significantly fewer trans men competing successfully than trans women it would suggest that there is in fact a biological advantage.

Not sure how this affects ultra endurance events where men and women tend to have a more level playing field - the Spine race is one example where the course record is held by a woman (one who was expressing milk during the event no less). The Trans Continental cycle race was won quite spectacularly by a woman in 2019.

The only example I can find is Chris Mosier, who competed in the 2016 World Champs (men's division) for the USA in sprint duathlon. I'm not sure where he finished in that but he isn't listed as having achieved huge things from the athletic standpoint (not being rude here). There don't seem to be any examples of MTF athletes competing at the highest level in men's sports, at least not yet. "

And that’s okay, if Chris started winning some competition, we’d probably have a problem from people and people be talking shite…

“But he takes Testosterone shots , that must have proper doped him to fuck”

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am not saying they should be

But evertime I see this come up I always ask this question

Should real female athletes who have been abused g steroids who have practcley turned them selfs in to exactly what a trans athlete would be

Should they be banned for life

Ie cris cyborg

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Before we even continue, do you understand what an unfair advantage is? Because you seem to keep bringing up her finishing position

Unfair advantage has nothing to do with where you place or how many records you break or how fast you were. If a guy takes steroids in boxing and loses it doesn’t justify his unfair advantage. If you steal a few pink 50s from the bank in monopoly but land in jail next turn, it doesn’t equal things out

I don’t care where someone places, or at what level of competition. I just want fair competition"

..do you understand "unfair advantage"? Because it seems that you're asserting something which isn't actually proven out, and then building your claims on that. Sort-of like everyone's trying to work out whether a foundation is sound but you just want to assert that it is so you can get on with building the house.

Outcomes like performance are important when it comes to identifying a correlation with input variables (e.g. assigned gender) - if you cannot identify a correlation then you aren't going to find a causal link BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING TO FIND. So, start with the ground floor - a correlation between the variable you think is "unfair" and the outcomes you think are being unfairly biased - before moving up from there.

A correlation, mind, not a headline.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I am not saying they should be

But evertime I see this come up I always ask this question

Should real female athletes who have been abused g steroids who have practcley turned them selfs in to exactly what a trans athlete would be

Should they be banned for life

Ie cris cyborg "

Of you are caught doping more than once, I'm pretty sure you are given a ban for life. Because the effects of testosterone are long lasting.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham


"I think this would present a problem even if it was a beauty competition and the winner of Miss Universe is a trans woman.

Somebody would just say… but she took away the trophy from my daughter, who’s an actual woman. Shame!!!!!! She’s a man

I think “us vs them” will always play for some and with polarised view, especially on certain platforms like twitter and YouTube, no matter what

Maybe but physical beauty is a completely different thing from physical strength and athleticism.

Obviously beauty and strength are different.

my argument tho was to say, some people will never be happy for trans folks to win anything , regardless.

I would agree. But you’ll find the arguments around athletic sports to be far more based in fact than opinion because we have numbers to back up advantages

Where as in vanity base sports it’s all down to opinion and judging criteria. You can’t argue who won a race, you can argue who won a beauty contest.

The earlier someone transitions the muddier the waters get on unfair advantages. But they can never be truly dismissed. The question is how far are sports and athletes going to let things slide when trading off “fair sports” for “inclusivity”

But so do we open up to only those who transition as kids? So like 12-13?

But hey , no. Because that’d be immoral to have a kid transition so young. Isn’t that what they say?

Damn if you do, damned If you don’t!!!

The fact that you can argue who won something, can be even worse and be called a …fix!

"

Exactly my point. The vanity sports are tough, I don’t know enough about the judging criteria to have an opinion

But on athletic sports? I’m pretty concrete on that. Trans need their own category. Compete against eachother.

Not enough trans people to do it? Yes there is.

Not enough professional level athletes? There’s not at the moment because there’s no trans league. Create a trans league and suddenly whoever is the best is considered a professional in their category.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I am not saying they should be

But evertime I see this come up I always ask this question

Should real female athletes who have been abused g steroids who have practcley turned them selfs in to exactly what a trans athlete would be

Should they be banned for life

Ie cris cyborg

Of you are caught doping more than once, I'm pretty sure you are given a ban for life. Because the effects of testosterone are long lasting."

5 fail test for testosterone her body has been permitty altered

90% off athletes are on steroids anyway and that’s a fact belco labs bust should have been a wake up call for everyone

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Look if anyones got a problem with that lady swimmer, she said and i quote, "y'all got a problem with me winning fair and square? Y'all can suck ma dick and lick ma plumbs"

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham


"Before we even continue, do you understand what an unfair advantage is? Because you seem to keep bringing up her finishing position

Unfair advantage has nothing to do with where you place or how many records you break or how fast you were. If a guy takes steroids in boxing and loses it doesn’t justify his unfair advantage. If you steal a few pink 50s from the bank in monopoly but land in jail next turn, it doesn’t equal things out

I don’t care where someone places, or at what level of competition. I just want fair competition

..do you understand "unfair advantage"? Because it seems that you're asserting something which isn't actually proven out, and then building your claims on that. Sort-of like everyone's trying to work out whether a foundation is sound but you just want to assert that it is so you can get on with building the house.

Outcomes like performance are important when it comes to identifying a correlation with input variables (e.g. assigned gender) - if you cannot identify a correlation then you aren't going to find a causal link BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING TO FIND. So, start with the ground floor - a correlation between the variable you think is "unfair" and the outcomes you think are being unfairly biased - before moving up from there.

A correlation, mind, not a headline."

Men on average are bigger then women. Taller, bigger lungs, bigger heart, increase muscle fibre density. All things that give an unfair advantage in many sports.

There are things we know

Until I see evidence these things can be reversed through transitioning I won’t be convinced

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By *os19Man
over a year ago

Edmonton

I don’t believe they were ever called transsexual but there were rumours at the time and maybe even to this day but during the 1980’s in athletics Jarmila Kratochvilova in 1983 won the 800 metres world championships in a world record time that still stands today also Fatima Whitbread was always in the top 3 javelin throwers.In more modern times the rumours about Caster Semenya possible been transsexual have surfaced although she has gone under various gender test as required to by the athletic organisations it turns out she had high testosterone so high that she is not allowed to compete in her favoured events of 800 metres or 1500 metres but instead it has to be the sprinters or 5000 metres.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Men on average are bigger then women. Taller, bigger lungs, bigger heart, increase muscle fibre density. All things that give an unfair advantage in many sports.

There are things we know

Until I see evidence these things can be reversed through transitioning I won’t be convinced "

So if you're correct that this is relevant then you'd see it in the data, right? Regardless of all the back-and-forth over how much this carries over through transitioning, if the outcomes aren't affected then there's no advantage for there to be an unfair advantage.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham


"Men on average are bigger then women. Taller, bigger lungs, bigger heart, increase muscle fibre density. All things that give an unfair advantage in many sports.

There are things we know

Until I see evidence these things can be reversed through transitioning I won’t be convinced

So if you're correct that this is relevant then you'd see it in the data, right? Regardless of all the back-and-forth over how much this carries over through transitioning, if the outcomes aren't affected then there's no advantage for there to be an unfair advantage."

Sorry but you’d have to rephrase that, I can’t understand what your saying

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don’t believe they were ever called transsexual but there were rumours at the time and maybe even to this day but during the 1980’s in athletics Jarmila Kratochvilova in 1983 won the 800 metres world championships in a world record time that still stands today also Fatima Whitbread was always in the top 3 javelin throwers.In more modern times the rumours about Caster Semenya possible been transsexual have surfaced although she has gone under various gender test as required to by the athletic organisations it turns out she had high testosterone so high that she is not allowed to compete in her favoured events of 800 metres or 1500 metres but instead it has to be the sprinters or 5000 metres."

Semenya is an example of how we're so gripped by transphobic hysteria that we will ban cis women to "purify" the gender.

You gotta ask - are you woman enough for these people?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don’t believe they were ever called transsexual but there were rumours at the time and maybe even to this day but during the 1980’s in athletics Jarmila Kratochvilova in 1983 won the 800 metres world championships in a world record time that still stands today also Fatima Whitbread was always in the top 3 javelin throwers.In more modern times the rumours about Caster Semenya possible been transsexual have surfaced although she has gone under various gender test as required to by the athletic organisations it turns out she had high testosterone so high that she is not allowed to compete in her favoured events of 800 metres or 1500 metres but instead it has to be the sprinters or 5000 metres."

I believe Caster Semenya is classed as intersex, which is a completely different debate and nothing to do with someone who was born male and then later identified and chose to live as a woman.

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By *eerobCouple
over a year ago

solihull

Do or are there any women who trans or identify as male now compete as males in male sports?

I cant see a trans man going from woman to male getting far in the 100 meters...well 100 meters obviously but you know what i mean.?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don’t believe they were ever called transsexual but there were rumours at the time and maybe even to this day but during the 1980’s in athletics Jarmila Kratochvilova in 1983 won the 800 metres world championships in a world record time that still stands today also Fatima Whitbread was always in the top 3 javelin throwers.In more modern times the rumours about Caster Semenya possible been transsexual have surfaced although she has gone under various gender test as required to by the athletic organisations it turns out she had high testosterone so high that she is not allowed to compete in her favoured events of 800 metres or 1500 metres but instead it has to be the sprinters or 5000 metres.

Semenya is an example of how we're so gripped by transphobic hysteria that we will ban cis women to "purify" the gender.

You gotta ask - are you woman enough for these people?"

But the problem can also be, can a biologically woman half transition into male with the high enough testosterone (taken into form of cross sex hormones), not proclaim herself as a trans man, and still compete on the basis of her sex? Tho she may be very developed because of the testosterone?

Like … there’s also that

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By *os19Man
over a year ago

Edmonton


"I don’t believe they were ever called transsexual but there were rumours at the time and maybe even to this day but during the 1980’s in athletics Jarmila Kratochvilova in 1983 won the 800 metres world championships in a world record time that still stands today also Fatima Whitbread was always in the top 3 javelin throwers.In more modern times the rumours about Caster Semenya possible been transsexual have surfaced although she has gone under various gender test as required to by the athletic organisations it turns out she had high testosterone so high that she is not allowed to compete in her favoured events of 800 metres or 1500 metres but instead it has to be the sprinters or 5000 metres.

Semenya is an example of how we're so gripped by transphobic hysteria that we will ban cis women to "purify" the gender.

You gotta ask - are you woman enough for these people?

But the problem can also be, can a biologically woman half transition into male with the high enough testosterone (taken into form of cross sex hormones), not proclaim herself as a trans man, and still compete on the basis of her sex? Tho she may be very developed because of the testosterone?

Like … there’s also that "
. This is what the athletic organisation are saying about Caster Semenya she has to much testosterone to compete in the 800 metres & 1500 metres but her testosterone levels allowed her to compete at 5000 metres.

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By *ou only live onceMan
over a year ago

London

Matt Dickinson has written an excellent article in The Times today on this: well worth a read to anyone interested in these issues.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thomas was 11th in the USA college rankings. That's pretty decent. Competing in the female category she's average at best. 1st, 5th and 8th places in her 3 outings is not dominating.

We're not doctors and we haven't transitioned so anything we think about her perceived advantage is pure speculation. Her performance stats would make less headlines.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The problem is everything sets a precedent. We let me to MtF people go into swimming, how long before a heavyweight boxer turns MtF and starts breaking jaws with a jab?

Let everyone identify however they want but I think we need to be careful what gets allowed here or we just end up ognoring biological women

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Thomas was 11th in the USA college rankings. That's pretty decent. Competing in the female category she's average at best. 1st, 5th and 8th places in her 3 outings is not dominating.

We're not doctors and we haven't transitioned so anything we think about her perceived advantage is pure speculation. Her performance stats would make less headlines."

She's still placing better than she did as a female. Has she got better or have her competitors become weaker?

I'm not a doctor but I'm a female athlete and I have a close female family member who is hoping to become a professional swimmer so I'm interested in this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Thomas was 11th in the USA college rankings. That's pretty decent. Competing in the female category she's average at best. 1st, 5th and 8th places in her 3 outings is not dominating.

We're not doctors and we haven't transitioned so anything we think about her perceived advantage is pure speculation. Her performance stats would make less headlines."

I think people also go by the way she looks also. Tall and broad etc so they make the assumption of her performance stats being out of this world

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The problem is everything sets a precedent. We let me to MtF people go into swimming, how long before a heavyweight boxer turns MtF and starts breaking jaws with a jab?

Let everyone identify however they want but I think we need to be careful what gets allowed here or we just end up ognoring biological women "

Do you even know the hurdles to transition ? And let’s not even talk about costs…

“let everyone identify as” you make it sound like someone wakes up randomly in the morning and says

U know what, from today I’m going to be Y or X

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Thomas was 11th in the USA college rankings. That's pretty decent. Competing in the female category she's average at best. 1st, 5th and 8th places in her 3 outings is not dominating.

We're not doctors and we haven't transitioned so anything we think about her perceived advantage is pure speculation. Her performance stats would make less headlines.

I think people also go by the way she looks also. Tall and broad etc so they make the assumption of her performance stats being out of this world "

Agreed. It's all speculation.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Feels a little sad to see womens sports being ruined by these things. I feel sorry for the girls who fought and trained hard and gave up so much for their sport to be placed in an unfair competition

Sad times for women sports

But in this case....how? She won one event and not in a particularly spectacular time. She cane 5th and 8th in her other events. Hardly dominating the sport. In fact the person dominating by breaking 18 of the 27 records at the event isn't even being talked about because people are trying to blow this up.

So she placed ahead of people because of a possible unfair advantage

That’s why I feel bad for the women sports right now.

But in the 15th fastest time for that distance so we're the other athletes even that competitive really?

I guess you could argue that they are only competing against the group on that particular day maybe but of they're serious about their sport they aren't anywhere close to competitive times if they can't beat the 15th best time.

Before we even continue, do you understand what an unfair advantage is? Because you seem to keep bringing up her finishing position

Unfair advantage has nothing to do with where you place or how many records you break or how fast you were. If a guy takes steroids in boxing and loses it doesn’t justify his unfair advantage. If you steal a few pink 50s from the bank in monopoly but land in jail next turn, it doesn’t equal things out

I don’t care where someone places, or at what level of competition. I just want fair competition"

Yes I know what it means thank you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As someone who was really into boxing before a wrist injury put pay to that, would I want to get into the ring with someone who has transitioned from male to female? No.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"As someone who was really into boxing before a wrist injury put pay to that, would I want to get into the ring with someone who has transitioned from male to female? No.

"

What if their performance since transitioning was middle of the pack at best?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Thomas was 11th in the USA college rankings. That's pretty decent. Competing in the female category she's average at best. 1st, 5th and 8th places in her 3 outings is not dominating.

We're not doctors and we haven't transitioned so anything we think about her perceived advantage is pure speculation. Her performance stats would make less headlines.

She's still placing better than she did as a female. Has she got better or have her competitors become weaker?

I'm not a doctor but I'm a female athlete and I have a close female family member who is hoping to become a professional swimmer so I'm interested in this. "

Do you mean placing better than she did as a male athlete? Because according to the article in the Guardian I just read it says her performance times ranked her 11th in the USA, think about that for a minute, 11th in the USA. So if her placings were not as good she may well have been up against the 8th 9th and 10th best. Her times are average in the female rankings.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Matt Dickinson has written an excellent article in The Times today on this: well worth a read to anyone interested in these issues."

It's behind a paywall.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-is-time-to-end-the-hysteria-in-transgender-debate-3jv5f2zk3

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The most ridiculous thing being said is she transitioned to just win races that’s like the stupidity of saying someone transitions just to visit female toilets and changing rooms, growing breasts and rewiring your body is kind of a big deal

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As someone who was really into boxing before a wrist injury put pay to that, would I want to get into the ring with someone who has transitioned from male to female? No.

What if their performance since transitioning was middle of the pack at best?"

Difficult. You always want to compete against someone who is a challenge to yourself, not someone too far below your own ability. I’d assume that they would be physically capable of throwing a tougher punch than I ever could purely due to biological factors. This is purely assumption on my part and I’m open to be corrected

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

People have only lost there shit because she won

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham


"The problem is everything sets a precedent. We let me to MtF people go into swimming, how long before a heavyweight boxer turns MtF and starts breaking jaws with a jab?

Let everyone identify however they want but I think we need to be careful what gets allowed here or we just end up ognoring biological women

Do you even know the hurdles to transition ? And let’s not even talk about costs…

“let everyone identify as” you make it sound like someone wakes up randomly in the morning and says

U know what, from today I’m going to be Y or X

"

To be fair he’s actually making a fair point and your just not addressing it

How much are we willing to sacrifice fair sport for inclusivity

Who decides who is and who isn’t a woman? How far is that line going to get pushed? How long until someone that can’t afford to transition says they are being discriminated against because they can’t compete at the gender they feel they are because of financial reasons? Do we let people start competing with less and less checks on what’s fair and what’s not?

What he’s basically say is.

We used to have a fairly concrete line in terms of gendered fairness in sports. Men over there, women over here

Now the line isn’t concrete. Now it’s complicated. Now we need to start deciding who is and who isn’t transitioned “enough” to compete at their gender.

What’s your answer to that? Instead of just dismissing it?

What’s your answer to a professional male boxer that wants to transition and compete as a female but can’t because of financial problems? Do we ignore their problem? Or do we let them compete? Is that fair? Is it unfair to deny their experience in sports because of the financial difficulties of transitioning? Or is it unfair to let a woman get punched in the face by a woman that hasn’t transitioned yet

Theses are hard questions that need answers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As someone who was really into boxing before a wrist injury put pay to that, would I want to get into the ring with someone who has transitioned from male to female? No.

What if their performance since transitioning was middle of the pack at best?

Difficult. You always want to compete against someone who is a challenge to yourself, not someone too far below your own ability. I’d assume that they would be physically capable of throwing a tougher punch than I ever could purely due to biological factors. This is purely assumption on my part and I’m open to be corrected "
maybe in the first year of transition but most trans girls become weaker than cis woman after muscle atrophy and ligament change

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Thomas was 11th in the USA college rankings. That's pretty decent. Competing in the female category she's average at best. 1st, 5th and 8th places in her 3 outings is not dominating.

We're not doctors and we haven't transitioned so anything we think about her perceived advantage is pure speculation. Her performance stats would make less headlines.

She's still placing better than she did as a female. Has she got better or have her competitors become weaker?

I'm not a doctor but I'm a female athlete and I have a close female family member who is hoping to become a professional swimmer so I'm interested in this.

Do you mean placing better than she did as a male athlete? Because according to the article in the Guardian I just read it says her performance times ranked her 11th in the USA, think about that for a minute, 11th in the USA. So if her placings were not as good she may well have been up against the 8th 9th and 10th best. Her times are average in the female rankings. "

Yes sorry, I didn't word that very well.

Maybe I've read something different from you but I've been following this story for a few months. If you look at men's and women's times in freestyle, women's best times are always over 10% slower than men's times. Since her transition, her times are 6-8% slower so I'm not convinced that she has lost any biological advantage.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Let's face it. This debate is not about sport, is it? The hysteria isn't actually about how fair it is. It's about whether someone who has transitioned from MtoF is a proper woman or not.

I'm fascinated that there's far less drama about people who transition the other way.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Thomas was 11th in the USA college rankings. That's pretty decent. Competing in the female category she's average at best. 1st, 5th and 8th places in her 3 outings is not dominating.

We're not doctors and we haven't transitioned so anything we think about her perceived advantage is pure speculation. Her performance stats would make less headlines.

She's still placing better than she did as a female. Has she got better or have her competitors become weaker?

I'm not a doctor but I'm a female athlete and I have a close female family member who is hoping to become a professional swimmer so I'm interested in this.

Do you mean placing better than she did as a male athlete? Because according to the article in the Guardian I just read it says her performance times ranked her 11th in the USA, think about that for a minute, 11th in the USA. So if her placings were not as good she may well have been up against the 8th 9th and 10th best. Her times are average in the female rankings.

Yes sorry, I didn't word that very well.

Maybe I've read something different from you but I've been following this story for a few months. If you look at men's and women's times in freestyle, women's best times are always over 10% slower than men's times. Since her transition, her times are 6-8% slower so I'm not convinced that she has lost any biological advantage. "
how long has she been transitioning for ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"People have only lost there shit because she won "

No they haven't. We've been talking about trans athletes and fairness for a long time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Thomas was 11th in the USA college rankings. That's pretty decent. Competing in the female category she's average at best. 1st, 5th and 8th places in her 3 outings is not dominating.

We're not doctors and we haven't transitioned so anything we think about her perceived advantage is pure speculation. Her performance stats would make less headlines.

She's still placing better than she did as a female. Has she got better or have her competitors become weaker?

I'm not a doctor but I'm a female athlete and I have a close female family member who is hoping to become a professional swimmer so I'm interested in this.

Do you mean placing better than she did as a male athlete? Because according to the article in the Guardian I just read it says her performance times ranked her 11th in the USA, think about that for a minute, 11th in the USA. So if her placings were not as good she may well have been up against the 8th 9th and 10th best. Her times are average in the female rankings.

Yes sorry, I didn't word that very well.

Maybe I've read something different from you but I've been following this story for a few months. If you look at men's and women's times in freestyle, women's best times are always over 10% slower than men's times. Since her transition, her times are 6-8% slower so I'm not convinced that she has lost any biological advantage. how long has she been transitioning for ? "

3 years.

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford


"Let's face it. This debate is not about sport, is it? The hysteria isn't actually about how fair it is. It's about whether someone who has transitioned from MtoF is a proper woman or not.

I'm fascinated that there's far less drama about people who transition the other way."

Nail on the head! X

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Let's face it. This debate is not about sport, is it? The hysteria isn't actually about how fair it is. It's about whether someone who has transitioned from MtoF is a proper woman or not.

I'm fascinated that there's far less drama about people who transition the other way."

I disagree. My debate is totally about the integrity of women's sport. We've had to fight for the right to compete and I want to see a level playing field for my family.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Let's face it. This debate is not about sport, is it? The hysteria isn't actually about how fair it is. It's about whether someone who has transitioned from MtoF is a proper woman or not.

I'm fascinated that there's far less drama about people who transition the other way."

Other way around is almost untalked about. There’s no men talking about male only spaces and how trans men shouldn’t be allowed to piss in mens toilets

It’d be a very big issue tho if trans men who have beards , start showing up in their biological sex toilet or changing room. Also not that they would want to, cos that’s not where they want to be.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Let's face it. This debate is not about sport, is it? The hysteria isn't actually about how fair it is. It's about whether someone who has transitioned from MtoF is a proper woman or not.

I'm fascinated that there's far less drama about people who transition the other way.

I disagree. My debate is totally about the integrity of women's sport. We've had to fight for the right to compete and I want to see a level playing field for my family. "

Noted and recognised. You'll be one of the very few though. I can only suggest you look at her performances. We are not looking at a future olympian here. Far from it.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Thomas was 11th in the USA college rankings. That's pretty decent. Competing in the female category she's average at best. 1st, 5th and 8th places in her 3 outings is not dominating.

We're not doctors and we haven't transitioned so anything we think about her perceived advantage is pure speculation. Her performance stats would make less headlines.

She's still placing better than she did as a female. Has she got better or have her competitors become weaker?

I'm not a doctor but I'm a female athlete and I have a close female family member who is hoping to become a professional swimmer so I'm interested in this.

Do you mean placing better than she did as a male athlete? Because according to the article in the Guardian I just read it says her performance times ranked her 11th in the USA, think about that for a minute, 11th in the USA. So if her placings were not as good she may well have been up against the 8th 9th and 10th best. Her times are average in the female rankings.

Yes sorry, I didn't word that very well.

Maybe I've read something different from you but I've been following this story for a few months. If you look at men's and women's times in freestyle, women's best times are always over 10% slower than men's times. Since her transition, her times are 6-8% slower so I'm not convinced that she has lost any biological advantage. how long has she been transitioning for ? "

I believe she has been in hrt since 2019 according to the article I posted way up in the thread.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Thomas was 11th in the USA college rankings. That's pretty decent. Competing in the female category she's average at best. 1st, 5th and 8th places in her 3 outings is not dominating.

We're not doctors and we haven't transitioned so anything we think about her perceived advantage is pure speculation. Her performance stats would make less headlines.

She's still placing better than she did as a female. Has she got better or have her competitors become weaker?

I'm not a doctor but I'm a female athlete and I have a close female family member who is hoping to become a professional swimmer so I'm interested in this.

Do you mean placing better than she did as a male athlete? Because according to the article in the Guardian I just read it says her performance times ranked her 11th in the USA, think about that for a minute, 11th in the USA. So if her placings were not as good she may well have been up against the 8th 9th and 10th best. Her times are average in the female rankings. "

I'm not sure she was 11th when she competed as a male. In 2018-2019,which was the last season she competed as a male, she ranked 32nd in 1650 freestyle. Now she's 8th. She ranked 65th in 200 freestyle. Now she's 1st. That's quite a leap.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"People have only lost there shit because she won

No they haven't. We've been talking about trans athletes and fairness for a long time. "

And the problem is because some have won. Somebody pointed it out on the New York Times and it was bang on.

If they never won, it’d have not been an issue at all!

Like it would be an issue if a trans man started winning gold left right and centre, but they don’t. So it’s not an issue and none complains

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham


"Let's face it. This debate is not about sport, is it? The hysteria isn't actually about how fair it is. It's about whether someone who has transitioned from MtoF is a proper woman or not.

I'm fascinated that there's far less drama about people who transition the other way."

I’d disagree

It’s not talked about the other way because the inherent size advantages aren’t there. A woman that transitions into a male isn’t getting nearly, if any, the size advantages when it’s the other way around.

I’m sure lots of people are on this purely because they don’t like trans

But the majority are about fairness in sports

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