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"It is all about perspective. It is like having a few beers with some friends, stripping naked and climbing a tree together. Thse ahead of you will look down and see smiling faces and people having a laugh. Anyone below you will look up and see arseholes everywhere. " LMAO | |||
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"l have family in the valleys. He is often described as a bastard there. I know of old girls that wouldn’t have his name mentioned in the house. Down here in Kent he’s remembered as the man who stood beside a frightened populace as invasion loomed. It’s all about perspective. Any politician with a long career at high levels will have elements of hero and villain. " it is indeed about perspective, his decisions as Home Secretary came back to haunt him throughout his career and there are those that focus on the negatives. I have family who fought in the war and, quite literally, stood beside Churchill in war theatres, to people like them he will always be a hero | |||
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"If Churchill had died in 1939, his political career would have been seen as an almost total failure. Not only Tonypandy, but Gallipoli, the over valuation of the pound when he was chancellor (precipitating the general strike) and his perverse opposition to moves towards Indian autonomy are the main items on the charge sheet. As it happens, his leadership during WWII makes him a towering figure in British history. " Cometh the hour, cometh the man? | |||
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"A d*unken,obnoxtous racist and a pathetic commander....just read his part in the Gallipoli battle. The establishment love a cunt and churchill fitted the bill perfectly. " I know who I'd prefer out of him or Adolf !! | |||
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"50-50 I'm not a fan of how he sold out the Polish to the Russians after the war ended. Especially given the number who defended us during the Battle of Britain "The only war he could have stopped the soviet takeover in Poland was by fighting the Ussr.. Obviously that wasn't an option. | |||
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"50-50 I'm not a fan of how he sold out the Polish to the Russians after the war ended. Especially given the number who defended us during the Battle of Britain "I have to take exception to this - the Poles didn't defend us, we defended them. We only went to war because of the non-aggression pacts and treaties between European countries. We stepped in, as per treaty, to help Poland when they were invaded. Those Poles that were able to escape came to Britain and we homed them and gave them the ability to fight the Germans to free their own homeland. Polish flyers were undisciplined so were taken away from mostly British formations because of their lack of regard for extremely valuable and necessary equipment. They fought for Poland from Britain. They din't fight for Britain, they fought for the Allies. | |||
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"50-50 I'm not a fan of how he sold out the Polish to the Russians after the war ended. Especially given the number who defended us during the Battle of Britain
I have to take exception to this - the Poles didn't defend us, we defended them. We only went to war because of the non-aggression pacts and treaties between European countries. We stepped in, as per treaty, to help Poland when they were invaded. Those Poles that were able to escape came to Britain and we homed them and gave them the ability to fight the Germans to free their own homeland. Polish flyers were undisciplined so were taken away from mostly British formations because of their lack of regard for extremely valuable and necessary equipment. They fought for Poland from Britain. They din't fight for Britain, they fought for the Allies."Either way Churchill sold our allies off to a man they knew would commit terrible atrocities. | |||
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"I'm not having you knocking Winston. You'll upset all the Daily Mail readers on here." It makes me wonder who would be seen as a hero if Churchill isn’t . We are looking at a serious leftie liberalisation in this country now which thankfully should be slowed down by Daily Mail , Sun , and Express readers for the time being anyway . | |||
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"50-50 I'm not a fan of how he sold out the Polish to the Russians after the war ended. Especially given the number who defended us during the Battle of Britain
I have to take exception to this - the Poles didn't defend us, we defended them. We only went to war because of the non-aggression pacts and treaties between European countries. We stepped in, as per treaty, to help Poland when they were invaded. Those Poles that were able to escape came to Britain and we homed them and gave them the ability to fight the Germans to free their own homeland. Polish flyers were undisciplined so were taken away from mostly British formations because of their lack of regard for extremely valuable and necessary equipment. They fought for Poland from Britain. They din't fight for Britain, they fought for the Allies.
Either way Churchill sold our allies off to a man they knew would commit terrible atrocities."No he didn't. He recognised he could do nothing about the Soviet Union dominating Poland after WW2 and tried to mitigate it by getting Stalins agreement to free elections after the war. Initially the Soviets were not averse to free elections in Eastern Europe. Such elections were held in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. However by 1947 when the Polish elections were held, the cold War was starting up and the elections were rigged. The only way that could have been stopped was by Britain declaring War on the Ussr. Clearly that wasn't an option. | |||
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"Think he is disgusting. I am Irish, but have ancestors who fought in the British army. Ireland allowed the UK to recruit inside Ireland during world war 2 for example, over 100,000 went, tens of thousands died, all in the name of building a better future as friends. As soon as he didnt need them he shit all over them. This resulted in everyone with any ties to british army hiding them, cutting them, being embarassed by them, not marking the deaths of those who died to save the UK. Even to this day it is hard to say in Ireland you had ancestors who foguth for the British because honestly they were made fools of. All he did was convince other nations to die for the UK then shit all over them." Three points. 1. Any Irish people who fought in world war 2 did so as volunteers. There wasn't even conscription in the part of Ireland that was in the UK. 2. When Hitler died, the Irish government was the only one in the world to offer official commiserations to Germany and the Irish pm signed a book of condolence at the German embassy in Dublin. 3. Ireland maintained a strict neutrality in WW2 and that was detrimental to the UK war effort. Nevertheless the UK respected that neutrality. Basically Ireland during ww2 was so obsessed by its anti British Policy that it was quite happy to see the allies and the Nazis as being on the same moral level. | |||
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"50-50 I'm not a fan of how he sold out the Polish to the Russians after the war ended. Especially given the number who defended us during the Battle of Britain
I have to take exception to this - the Poles didn't defend us, we defended them. We only went to war because of the non-aggression pacts and treaties between European countries. We stepped in, as per treaty, to help Poland when they were invaded. Those Poles that were able to escape came to Britain and we homed them and gave them the ability to fight the Germans to free their own homeland. Polish flyers were undisciplined so were taken away from mostly British formations because of their lack of regard for extremely valuable and necessary equipment. They fought for Poland from Britain. They din't fight for Britain, they fought for the Allies.
Either way Churchill sold our allies off to a man they knew would commit terrible atrocities.
No he didn't. He recognised he could do nothing about the Soviet Union dominating Poland after WW2 and tried to mitigate it by getting Stalins agreement to free elections after the war.
Initially the Soviets were not averse to free elections in Eastern Europe. Such elections were held in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. However by 1947 when the Polish elections were held, the cold War was starting up and the elections were rigged.
The only way that could have been stopped was by Britain declaring War on the Ussr. Clearly that wasn't an option. "I view politics in the same way I treat any other relationship. I'd fight to the death for my friends. Call me naive if you like. | |||
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"I'm not having you knocking Winston. You'll upset all the Daily Mail readers on here. It makes me wonder who would be seen as a hero if Churchill isn’t . We are looking at a serious leftie liberalisation in this country now which thankfully should be slowed down by Daily Mail , Sun , and Express readers for the time being anyway ." I didn't say he shouldn't be seen as a hero but thanks for proving my overall point. | |||
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"50-50 I'm not a fan of how he sold out the Polish to the Russians after the war ended. Especially given the number who defended us during the Battle of Britain
I have to take exception to this - the Poles didn't defend us, we defended them. We only went to war because of the non-aggression pacts and treaties between European countries. We stepped in, as per treaty, to help Poland when they were invaded. Those Poles that were able to escape came to Britain and we homed them and gave them the ability to fight the Germans to free their own homeland. Polish flyers were undisciplined so were taken away from mostly British formations because of their lack of regard for extremely valuable and necessary equipment. They fought for Poland from Britain. They din't fight for Britain, they fought for the Allies.
Either way Churchill sold our allies off to a man they knew would commit terrible atrocities.
No he didn't. He recognised he could do nothing about the Soviet Union dominating Poland after WW2 and tried to mitigate it by getting Stalins agreement to free elections after the war.
Initially the Soviets were not averse to free elections in Eastern Europe. Such elections were held in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. However by 1947 when the Polish elections were held, the cold War was starting up and the elections were rigged.
The only way that could have been stopped was by Britain declaring War on the Ussr. Clearly that wasn't an option.
I view politics in the same way I treat any other relationship. I'd fight to the death for my friends. Call me naive if you like."But of course, Churchill wouldn't have been fighting himself. He would have condemning millions of more people to death, following a six year war that had already killed tens of millions. Politics is often about making choices between the bad and the worse. Churchill made the right choice re Poland. | |||
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" Three points. 1. Any Irish people who fought in world war 2 did so as volunteers. There wasn't even conscription in the part of Ireland that was in the UK. 2. When Hitler died, the Irish government was the only one in the world to offer official commiserations to Germany and the Irish pm signed a book of condolence at the German embassy in Dublin. 3. Ireland maintained a strict neutrality in WW2 and that was detrimental to the UK war effort. Nevertheless the UK respected that neutrality. Basically Ireland during ww2 was so obsessed by its anti British Policy that it was quite happy to see the allies and the Nazis as being on the same moral level. " 1) Of course they had to volunteer, Ireland was not part of the UK. Ireland allowed the UK a foreign army to recruit openly in cities and allowed the citizens to volunteer openly. The UK did not recruit from the North as hitler had plans to take Ireland so they sent them weapons and told them to hold steady. I will go into them plans later. 2) The Irish condolence to Hitler was due to Churchill's comments. 3) Ireland was not neutral. Ireland kept german prisoners of war but released British ones, Ireland allowed the UK to recruit volunteers. Ireland gave the UK access to land markings to allow the RAF to navigate over Ireland and witheld them from Germany. Ireland gave all intelligence gathered on Germany including boat movements in Irish waters to the UK and never gave such information to hitler. Ireland had nothing close to a neutral stance. At the time they said it was neutral as they did not want to openly give these things to hitler too. 3) The UK did not respect the neutrality, as they took all the secret help offered and openly recruited in Irish cities. They didn't say "Hold on you guys are neutral, we cant accept these maps, or these hundreds of thousands of people". I guess you read a history book written by churchill? Irelands openly neutral stance was not a detriment to the UK. Hitler did have plans to drawn UK into land war in Ireland which would have stopped the D-day plans in their tracks. Hitler was put off by this idea because he considered the neutral stance of Ireland more important and had put it as a last ditch plan. Furthermore if Ireland was not neutral then they could have decided to fight for Germany. Non neutrality does not mean "we will fight for the uk only", neutrality means we will fight with neither side, ireland was given promises by hitler that they refused. These promises included all the weapons they could imagine to take northern Ireland, the full use of the german navy. The promotion of Irish people to the highest level of the german army. The promises dwarfed all promises offered by the UK but hitler probably would have kept his. Had they accepted the offers, then Irish people wearing SS uniforms would be in charge of the UK now. This is why the UK did not force men of fighting age to leave northern Ireland, as the UK believed if hitler made a move without Ireland being okay with it, then Ireland would immediately move to fully join the british army, combined with the forces in the north, they could hold off Hitler until boats arrived from the UK. Basically in any contemporary history book, Irelands help to the UK and refusal to help Hitler can be seen as nothing short of Ireland being fully involved in the war. Any sentiment to the contrary is just regurgitating old propaganda spouted by people like churchill to make the empire look strong, to make it like it was the british who stood alone. | |||
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"50-50 I'm not a fan of how he sold out the Polish to the Russians after the war ended. Especially given the number who defended us during the Battle of Britain
I have to take exception to this - the Poles didn't defend us, we defended them. We only went to war because of the non-aggression pacts and treaties between European countries. We stepped in, as per treaty, to help Poland when they were invaded. Those Poles that were able to escape came to Britain and we homed them and gave them the ability to fight the Germans to free their own homeland. Polish flyers were undisciplined so were taken away from mostly British formations because of their lack of regard for extremely valuable and necessary equipment. They fought for Poland from Britain. They din't fight for Britain, they fought for the Allies.
Either way Churchill sold our allies off to a man they knew would commit terrible atrocities.
No he didn't. He recognised he could do nothing about the Soviet Union dominating Poland after WW2 and tried to mitigate it by getting Stalins agreement to free elections after the war.
Initially the Soviets were not averse to free elections in Eastern Europe. Such elections were held in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. However by 1947 when the Polish elections were held, the cold War was starting up and the elections were rigged.
The only way that could have been stopped was by Britain declaring War on the Ussr. Clearly that wasn't an option.
I view politics in the same way I treat any other relationship. I'd fight to the death for my friends. Call me naive if you like.
But of course, Churchill wouldn't have been fighting himself. He would have condemning millions of more people to death, following a six year war that had already killed tens of millions.
Politics is often about making choices between the bad and the worse. Churchill made the right choice re Poland. "Politics SHOULD be about making the best long term decisions. Unfortunately people are the way the are and we have the mess that we have. I reserve the right to wholeheartedly disagree with anyone who thinks it's ok to sell out your mates for your own benefit. I'm done with this conversation now. | |||
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"I'm not having you knocking Winston. You'll upset all the Daily Mail readers on here. It makes me wonder who would be seen as a hero if Churchill isn’t . We are looking at a serious leftie liberalisation in this country now which thankfully should be slowed down by Daily Mail , Sun , and Express readers for the time being anyway . I didn't say he shouldn't be seen as a hero but thanks for proving my overall point." It’s an absolute pleasure  | |||
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"50-50 I'm not a fan of how he sold out the Polish to the Russians after the war ended. Especially given the number who defended us during the Battle of Britain
I have to take exception to this - the Poles didn't defend us, we defended them. We only went to war because of the non-aggression pacts and treaties between European countries. We stepped in, as per treaty, to help Poland when they were invaded. Those Poles that were able to escape came to Britain and we homed them and gave them the ability to fight the Germans to free their own homeland. Polish flyers were undisciplined so were taken away from mostly British formations because of their lack of regard for extremely valuable and necessary equipment. They fought for Poland from Britain. They din't fight for Britain, they fought for the Allies.
Either way Churchill sold our allies off to a man they knew would commit terrible atrocities.
No he didn't. He recognised he could do nothing about the Soviet Union dominating Poland after WW2 and tried to mitigate it by getting Stalins agreement to free elections after the war.
Initially the Soviets were not averse to free elections in Eastern Europe. Such elections were held in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. However by 1947 when the Polish elections were held, the cold War was starting up and the elections were rigged.
The only way that could have been stopped was by Britain declaring War on the Ussr. Clearly that wasn't an option.
I view politics in the same way I treat any other relationship. I'd fight to the death for my friends. Call me naive if you like.
But of course, Churchill wouldn't have been fighting himself. He would have condemning millions of more people to death, following a six year war that had already killed tens of millions.
Politics is often about making choices between the bad and the worse. Churchill made the right choice re Poland.
Politics SHOULD be about making the best long term decisions. Unfortunately people are the way the are and we have the mess that we have.
I reserve the right to wholeheartedly disagree with anyone who thinks it's ok to sell out your mates for your own benefit.
I'm done with this conversation now."When you physically can't actually do anything to help your mates it's a bit different. There were millions of Soviet troops in Poland and no British troops anywhere near. What exactly was Churchill supposed to do to help his mates? | |||
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"I'm not having you knocking Winston. You'll upset all the Daily Mail readers on here. It makes me wonder who would be seen as a hero if Churchill isn’t . We are looking at a serious leftie liberalisation in this country now which thankfully should be slowed down by Daily Mail , Sun , and Express readers for the time being anyway ." What about all those people who fought and who despised Churchill? They didn't see him as a hero, and this is why I say that this fetishisation of Churchill can only happen in a generation who have no memory of the general strike, of Tonypandy, of Glasgow and of what he did in Ireland. | |||
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"Sometimes good people have to do bad things with good intentions." I'm not sure that he had any "good intentions". I think that his suspension of the Germans was bourne out of WW1, and he (rightly) didn't want a resurgent German nationalism. He had no problem with what the Nazis were doing internally. He certainly approved of the use of chemical weapons on people who he felt were ethnically inferior, which was an especially shocking view in the context of the time, because the movement to ban chemical weapons came from the use of Gas in WW1, which people would have first hand memory of at the time, unlike today. People say that you can't view people in terms of the world we live in now, and I'd say that his support for chemical weapons would be far more offensive then, than it is now, because a large part of the population have no memory of them/their friends being gassed. | |||
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"I'm not having you knocking Winston. You'll upset all the Daily Mail readers on here. It makes me wonder who would be seen as a hero if Churchill isn’t . We are looking at a serious leftie liberalisation in this country now which thankfully should be slowed down by Daily Mail , Sun , and Express readers for the time being anyway . What about all those people who fought and who despised Churchill? They didn't see him as a hero, and this is why I say that this fetishisation of Churchill can only happen in a generation who have no memory of the general strike, of Tonypandy, of Glasgow and of what he did in Ireland. " Well here’s the thing . I grew up learning history from my grandparents , my parents , and school , who all taught me that Churchill pulled the country together when we needed it most of all . Like any politician he may well have made mistakes and pissed certain people off , I mean what politician hasn’t ? But how many did what he did when we needed it most of all ? Troops stranded on French beaches were sitting targets , thousands of them , and thanks to his stirring speeches and uniting us , every boat of every description brought them home . Not to mention that he was an almost lone voice in despising Hitler and what the Germans were doing early on while that twat Chamberlain was spouting off about negotiating peace . Churchill was convinced Hitler wouldn’t listen , and finally when it looked like we would be proper fucked over , Churchill saved us by uniting the country both politically and by getting the whole country to be strong and behind him against the Nazi tyranny . That’s heroic in my book , and I for one am bloody glad not to be a fucking nazi . I like black people , Jews , travellers , disabled folk , gays and trans people and all the people that Hitler would have wiped out . | |||
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"I'm not having you knocking Winston. You'll upset all the Daily Mail readers on here. It makes me wonder who would be seen as a hero if Churchill isn’t . We are looking at a serious leftie liberalisation in this country now which thankfully should be slowed down by Daily Mail , Sun , and Express readers for the time being anyway . What about all those people who fought and who despised Churchill? They didn't see him as a hero, and this is why I say that this fetishisation of Churchill can only happen in a generation who have no memory of the general strike, of Tonypandy, of Glasgow and of what he did in Ireland. Well here’s the thing . I grew up learning history from my grandparents , my parents , and school , who all taught me that Churchill pulled the country together when we needed it most of all . Like any politician he may well have made mistakes and pissed certain people off , I mean what politician hasn’t ? But how many did what he did when we needed it most of all ? Troops stranded on French beaches were sitting targets , thousands of them , and thanks to his stirring speeches and uniting us , every boat of every description brought them home . Not to mention that he was an almost lone voice in despising Hitler and what the Germans were doing early on while that twat Chamberlain was spouting off about negotiating peace . Churchill was convinced Hitler wouldn’t listen , and finally when it looked like we would be proper fucked over , Churchill saved us by uniting the country both politically and by getting the whole country to be strong and behind him against the Nazi tyranny . That’s heroic in my book , and I for one am bloody glad not to be a fucking nazi . I like black people , Jews , travellers , disabled folk , gays and trans people and all the people that Hitler would have wiped out . " I suspect it depends on the region you lived in. He was despised all over the industrial heartlands of this country. Many of the those people fought Fascism because they despised Fascism and not because they loved Churchill. I agree that they probably wouldn't have known about/cared about India etc, but they were definitely aware of how he viewed working people, ie: them. On starving miners in Tonypandy: "Let them eat lead". Do you think miners, and by association the wider industrial classes ever forgave that sentiment? | |||
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"Ireland - I think the worst was how returning soldiers were treated by the Irish, who saw them as joining the British. In reality they were heroes fighting the unimaginable." Most of them went off to fight and die to show the UK that they didnt have to worry about Ireland and Northern Ireland joining and being outside of British control. That they didnt have to worry about Ireland having a government or an Army. That Ireland would never join up with anyone on the planet to move against them that they were neutral, but that even if the Irish nation could not help them, the Irish people would always join them in their hour of need. When they got back they were treated as heros, and then churchill shit on Ireland and them, and the people from that moment on treated the lot of them as foolish idiots. Not for joining the british, but for being dumb enough to think the british government would see it how they did. Even to this day if I tell a British person that I had a relative join the british army and fight for the UK. I don't get a "That was cool, there is a huge monument in London for them". I get "yeah well Ireland was neutral and really hurt our chances, what do you expect a thanks? you're lucky we didnt invade and force the lot of you to the front line, cowards".. churchill bullshit. | |||
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"Churchill was a military man..and had taken hard choices and lived with them as a soldier. ..they bought him in to be pm at war time because they new he would do what need to be done as a military man ..after the war ..he was gone..thats the only reason he was pm.." They didn't "bring him in", he'd been in Parliament for ages. He formed a coalition government for the duration of the war. | |||
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"Would class him as right man at right time chamberlain got dicked by Hitler ,Halifax would have surrendered to Germany so he was one of the few to stand and be counted . He made huge mistakes when first adrimal but history will judge him as the leader that dragged Europe kicking and screaming to defeat Hitler " And what about Atlee? See my above post- Labour abandoned pacifism in 1937 and were fiercely critical of appeasement. Don't think that Churchill was the only one who could see the threat Hitler posed. | |||
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"Would class him as right man at right time chamberlain got dicked by Hitler ,Halifax would have surrendered to Germany so he was one of the few to stand and be counted . He made huge mistakes when first adrimal but history will judge him as the leader that dragged Europe kicking and screaming to defeat Hitler And what about Atlee? See my above post- Labour abandoned pacifism in 1937 and were fiercely critical of appeasement. Don't think that Churchill was the only one who could see the threat Hitler posed. " Atlee admired Churchill wasn’t he the one that wanted the statue of Churchill in the commons ? | |||
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"Would class him as right man at right time chamberlain got dicked by Hitler ,Halifax would have surrendered to Germany so he was one of the few to stand and be counted . He made huge mistakes when first adrimal but history will judge him as the leader that dragged Europe kicking and screaming to defeat Hitler And what about Atlee? See my above post- Labour abandoned pacifism in 1937 and were fiercely critical of appeasement. Don't think that Churchill was the only one who could see the threat Hitler posed. Atlee admired Churchill wasn’t he the one that wanted the statue of Churchill in the commons ?" No idea, but he was the leader of the Labour party at the time. I was addressing the point (that I see made a lot) that Churchill was this lone voice in the wilderness criticising Hitler. He may have been a lone voice within the conservative party, many of whom quite liked Hitler (as did certain Royals), but he certainly wasn't a lone voice within the the British political sphere. | |||
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