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The Secret History of the Mongols

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

History Post, it's long, if that's not your thing, avoid at all costs.

Various dates are given for the birth of Temüdjin (or Temuchin), as Genghis Khan was named by his father Yesügei. The chronology of Temüdjin’s early life is uncertain. He may have been born in 1155, in 1162 (the date favoured today in Mongolia), or in 1167. According to legend, his birth was auspicious, because he came into the world holding a clot of blood in his hand. He is also said to have been of divine origin, his first ancestor having been a gray wolf “Born with a destiny from heaven on high.” Yet his early years were anything but promising. When he was nine, his father Yesügei, a member of the royal Borjigin clan of the Mongols, was poisoned by a band of Tatars, another nomadic people, in continuance of an old feud.

With Yesügei dead, the remainder of the clan, led by the rival Taychiut family, abandoned his widow, Höelün, and her children, considering them too weak to exercise leadership and seized the opportunity to usurp power. This was a Death Sentance on the Mongol Steppe with winter fast approaching.

For a time the small family led a life of extreme poverty, eating roots and fish instead of the normal nomad diet of mutton and mare’s milk. During this period Temudjin found his older brother eating his own kills and not sharing it amongst the starving family. Later Temudjin and his younger brother killed the older brother for his greed.

Two anecdotes illustrate both Temüdjin’s straitened circumstances and, more significantly, the power he already had of attracting supporters through sheer force of personality. Once he was captured by the Taychiut, who, rather than killing him, kept him around their camps, wearing a wooden collar. One night, when they were feasting, Temüdjin, noticing that he was being ineptly guarded, knocked down the sentry with a blow from his wooden collar and fled. The Taychiut searched all night for him, and he was seen by one of their people, who, impressed by the fire in his eyes, did not denounce him but helped him escape at the risk of his own life. On another occasion horse thieves came and stole eight of the nine horses that the small family owned. Temüjin pursued them. On the way he stopped to ask a young stranger, called Bo’orchu, if he had seen the horses. Bo’orchu immediately left the milking he was engaged in, gave Temüdjin a fresh horse, and set out with him to help recover the lost beasts. He refused any reward but, recognizing Temüjin’s authority, attached himself irrevocably to him as a nökör, or free companion, abandoning his own family.

Temüdjin and his family apparently preserved a considerable fund of prestige as members of the royal Borjigin clan, in spite of their rejection by it. Among other things, he was able to claim the wife to whom Yesügei had betrothed him just before his death. But the Merkit people, a tribe living in northern Mongolia, bore Temüjin a grudge, because Yesügei had stolen his own wife, Höelün, from one of their men, and in their turn they ravished Temüjin’s wife Börte. Temüjin felt able to appeal to Toghril, Khan of the Kereit tribe, with whom Yesügei had had the relationship of anda, or sworn brother, and at that time the most powerful Mongol prince, for help in recovering Börte. He had had the foresight to rekindle this friendship by presenting Toghril with a sable skin, which he himself had received as a bridal gift. He seems to have had nothing else to offer; yet, in exchange, Toghril promised to reunite Temüjin’s scattered people, and he is said to have redeemed his promise by furnishing 20,000 men and persuading Jamuka, a boyhood friend of Temüdjin’s, to supply an army as well. The contrast between Temüdjin’s destitution and the huge army furnished by his allies is hard to explain, and no authority other than the narrative of the Secret History of The Mongols is available.

*Not my own words.

It's his early life that fascinates me, how he was a somebody, then a nobody, clawed some hope back, then a nobody again, but never gave up. More than just the mindless killer many of you think he may be.

If any of that interested any of you, I'm happy to answer any questions I can about anything to do with Ghengis Khan (the Khan - not me), The Mongol Empire, the other Great Khans, the Golden Horde or Khublai Khan.

Though I expect this to go down like a lead balloon.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The enemy or the next victims, could smell the Mongols before they could see them, I love reading about genghis khan

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do you think he was murdered?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

He also had a lot of kids!! Over 1000

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Do you think he was murdered?"

No, not a chance. If this were the case it would have happened long before it did. I think he died from an arrow wound that went bad. In old age.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"He also had a lot of kids!! Over 1000"

Yes, he has had the biggest single impact in relatively modern history on the gene pool of Asia.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"The enemy or the next victims, could smell the Mongols before they could see them, I love reading about genghis khan"

noticed you used a different spelling Nobody can agree how to write or pronounce it, experts included.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

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By *tingly ByronMan
over a year ago

In a town Fab forgot


"History Post, it's long, if that's not your thing, avoid at all costs.

Various dates are given for the birth of Temüdjin (or Temuchin), as Genghis Khan was named by his father Yesügei. The chronology of Temüdjin’s early life is uncertain. He may have been born in 1155, in 1162 (the date favoured today in Mongolia), or in 1167. According to legend, his birth was auspicious, because he came into the world holding a clot of blood in his hand. He is also said to have been of divine origin, his first ancestor having been a gray wolf “Born with a destiny from heaven on high.” Yet his early years were anything but promising. When he was nine, his father Yesügei, a member of the royal Borjigin clan of the Mongols, was poisoned by a band of Tatars, another nomadic people, in continuance of an old feud.

With Yesügei dead, the remainder of the clan, led by the rival Taychiut family, abandoned his widow, Höelün, and her children, considering them too weak to exercise leadership and seized the opportunity to usurp power. This was a Death Sentance on the Mongol Steppe with winter fast approaching.

For a time the small family led a life of extreme poverty, eating roots and fish instead of the normal nomad diet of mutton and mare’s milk. During this period Temudjin found his older brother eating his own kills and not sharing it amongst the starving family. Later Temudjin and his younger brother killed the older brother for his greed.

Two anecdotes illustrate both Temüdjin’s straitened circumstances and, more significantly, the power he already had of attracting supporters through sheer force of personality. Once he was captured by the Taychiut, who, rather than killing him, kept him around their camps, wearing a wooden collar. One night, when they were feasting, Temüdjin, noticing that he was being ineptly guarded, knocked down the sentry with a blow from his wooden collar and fled. The Taychiut searched all night for him, and he was seen by one of their people, who, impressed by the fire in his eyes, did not denounce him but helped him escape at the risk of his own life. On another occasion horse thieves came and stole eight of the nine horses that the small family owned. Temüjin pursued them. On the way he stopped to ask a young stranger, called Bo’orchu, if he had seen the horses. Bo’orchu immediately left the milking he was engaged in, gave Temüdjin a fresh horse, and set out with him to help recover the lost beasts. He refused any reward but, recognizing Temüjin’s authority, attached himself irrevocably to him as a nökör, or free companion, abandoning his own family.

Temüdjin and his family apparently preserved a considerable fund of prestige as members of the royal Borjigin clan, in spite of their rejection by it. Among other things, he was able to claim the wife to whom Yesügei had betrothed him just before his death. But the Merkit people, a tribe living in northern Mongolia, bore Temüjin a grudge, because Yesügei had stolen his own wife, Höelün, from one of their men, and in their turn they ravished Temüjin’s wife Börte. Temüjin felt able to appeal to Toghril, Khan of the Kereit tribe, with whom Yesügei had had the relationship of anda, or sworn brother, and at that time the most powerful Mongol prince, for help in recovering Börte. He had had the foresight to rekindle this friendship by presenting Toghril with a sable skin, which he himself had received as a bridal gift. He seems to have had nothing else to offer; yet, in exchange, Toghril promised to reunite Temüjin’s scattered people, and he is said to have redeemed his promise by furnishing 20,000 men and persuading Jamuka, a boyhood friend of Temüdjin’s, to supply an army as well. The contrast between Temüdjin’s destitution and the huge army furnished by his allies is hard to explain, and no authority other than the narrative of the Secret History of The Mongols is available.

*Not my own words.

It's his early life that fascinates me, how he was a somebody, then a nobody, clawed some hope back, then a nobody again, but never gave up. More than just the mindless killer many of you think he may be.

If any of that interested any of you, I'm happy to answer any questions I can about anything to do with Ghengis Khan (the Khan - not me), The Mongol Empire, the other Great Khans, the Golden Horde or Khublai Khan.

Though I expect this to go down like a lead balloon.

"

If it's a secret, how do you know all this?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I love a bit of history will read it once I find my glasses.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?"

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?"

Oh yes

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it"

Mass genocide is an odd thing to be a fan of - are you in to Stalin and Hitler too?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it"

What do you admire him for/fan over him about?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes "

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maybe "fan" is the wrong word or phrase,I prefer the term 'somebody who is interested in history, especially the life of genghis khan"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?"

Alexander the great could lace genghis khan's boots

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Stingly Byron - please don't copy that text lmfao Well be herd all night just sending five messages.

Not a lot is known about them really. All we have to go on are a few Middle Eastern records and one or two European ones.

And there own history, started by Ogedai Khan (Ghengis's 3rd son) called "Secret History of the Mongols"

Which is where ALL the early stuff comes from..

So must be taken with that in mind, history is written by the winners. Ghengis won a lot.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"He also had a lot of kids!! Over 1000"

and,,he invented cheese

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By *ondongreg79Man
over a year ago

london


"He also had a lot of kids!! Over 1000

Yes, he has had the biggest single impact in relatively modern history on the gene pool of Asia."

Every child with a Mongolian blue spot is related right?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it

Mass genocide is an odd thing to be a fan of - are you in to Stalin and Hitler too?"

No. Not at all. His method of violence wasn't any more brutal than any other civilizations in existence at the time. Freedom of Religion was allowed. Ghengis recruited on talent and skill, not colour or creed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it

Mass genocide is an odd thing to be a fan of - are you in to Stalin and Hitler too?"

Listen mate if it's a big blah blah blah argument you want I really can't be arsed, iv had a long day I'm tired and I'm hungry,ask me again in the morning

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it

Mass genocide is an odd thing to be a fan of - are you in to Stalin and Hitler too?

No. Not at all. His method of violence wasn't any more brutal than any other civilizations in existence at the time. Freedom of Religion was allowed. Ghengis recruited on talent and skill, not colour or creed."

So he was an equal opportunities mass-murderer then?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it

What do you admire him for/fan over him about? "

What he managed to achieve through force of personality. Personally I think he was trying to conquer the world. So that no other person had to suffer like he had as a kid. Romantic? Possibly. Sensible? Possibly. If you could pull it off and unite the world under one banner. Would I do that? No.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?"

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"He also had a lot of kids!! Over 1000

and,,he invented cheese "

Did he

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it

Mass genocide is an odd thing to be a fan of - are you in to Stalin and Hitler too?

Listen mate if it's a big blah blah blah argument you want I really can't be arsed, iv had a long day I'm tired and I'm hungry,ask me again in the morning "

I didn't want an argument - I'm just interested in why some people revere a mass murderer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it

Mass genocide is an odd thing to be a fan of - are you in to Stalin and Hitler too?

No. Not at all. His method of violence wasn't any more brutal than any other civilizations in existence at the time. Freedom of Religion was allowed. Ghengis recruited on talent and skill, not colour or creed.

So he was an equal opportunities mass-murderer then? "

Don't think the word 'murderer' would be appropriate for that era, maybe conqueror is the right word

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"He also had a lot of kids!! Over 1000

Yes, he has had the biggest single impact in relatively modern history on the gene pool of Asia.

Every child with a Mongolian blue spot is related right?"

I don't know what that means. I just know he's had a huge impact. Most of Middle East and Asia can trace their roots back to him somehow. 7 degrees of separation? DNA?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it

Mass genocide is an odd thing to be a fan of - are you in to Stalin and Hitler too?

No. Not at all. His method of violence wasn't any more brutal than any other civilizations in existence at the time. Freedom of Religion was allowed. Ghengis recruited on talent and skill, not colour or creed.

So he was an equal opportunities mass-murderer then? "

Best kind Nobody likes a racist dictator.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered."

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

30 posts on a genghis Khan thread!!! Does the poster above look like genghis khan?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"30 posts on a genghis Khan thread!!! Does the poster above look like genghis khan? "

Are you and the OP the same person? You seem to be responding to posts aimed at him.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

40 million give or take, I'm a fan, take it or leave it

Mass genocide is an odd thing to be a fan of - are you in to Stalin and Hitler too?

Listen mate if it's a big blah blah blah argument you want I really can't be arsed, iv had a long day I'm tired and I'm hungry,ask me again in the morning

I didn't want an argument - I'm just interested in why some people revere a mass murderer. "

Like I said.. the violence and deaths were relative to time period. People revere Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, William the Conquerer etc.

In modern times.. I'm a pacifist, a humanitarian. I love the past though. Lots of lessons to learn from. I'm a fan of history, the better the story, the more I like it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?"

The Chinese? Very well organised

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By *imited 3EditionCouple
over a year ago

Live in Scotland Play in England


"History Post, it's long, if that's not your thing, avoid at all costs.

Various dates are given for the birth of Temüdjin (or Temuchin), as Genghis Khan was named by his father Yesügei. The chronology of Temüdjin’s early life is uncertain. He may have been born in 1155, in 1162 (the date favoured today in Mongolia), or in 1167. According to legend, his birth was auspicious, because he came into the world holding a clot of blood in his hand. He is also said to have been of divine origin, his first ancestor having been a gray wolf “Born with a destiny from heaven on high.” Yet his early years were anything but promising. When he was nine, his father Yesügei, a member of the royal Borjigin clan of the Mongols, was poisoned by a band of Tatars, another nomadic people, in continuance of an old feud.

With Yesügei dead, the remainder of the clan, led by the rival Taychiut family, abandoned his widow, Höelün, and her children, considering them too weak to exercise leadership and seized the opportunity to usurp power. This was a Death Sentance on the Mongol Steppe with winter fast approaching.

For a time the small family led a life of extreme poverty, eating roots and fish instead of the normal nomad diet of mutton and mare’s milk. During this period Temudjin found his older brother eating his own kills and not sharing it amongst the starving family. Later Temudjin and his younger brother killed the older brother for his greed.

Two anecdotes illustrate both Temüdjin’s straitened circumstances and, more significantly, the power he already had of attracting supporters through sheer force of personality. Once he was captured by the Taychiut, who, rather than killing him, kept him around their camps, wearing a wooden collar. One night, when they were feasting, Temüdjin, noticing that he was being ineptly guarded, knocked down the sentry with a blow from his wooden collar and fled. The Taychiut searched all night for him, and he was seen by one of their people, who, impressed by the fire in his eyes, did not denounce him but helped him escape at the risk of his own life. On another occasion horse thieves came and stole eight of the nine horses that the small family owned. Temüjin pursued them. On the way he stopped to ask a young stranger, called Bo’orchu, if he had seen the horses. Bo’orchu immediately left the milking he was engaged in, gave Temüdjin a fresh horse, and set out with him to help recover the lost beasts. He refused any reward but, recognizing Temüjin’s authority, attached himself irrevocably to him as a nökör, or free companion, abandoning his own family.

Temüdjin and his family apparently preserved a considerable fund of prestige as members of the royal Borjigin clan, in spite of their rejection by it. Among other things, he was able to claim the wife to whom Yesügei had betrothed him just before his death. But the Merkit people, a tribe living in northern Mongolia, bore Temüjin a grudge, because Yesügei had stolen his own wife, Höelün, from one of their men, and in their turn they ravished Temüjin’s wife Börte. Temüjin felt able to appeal to Toghril, Khan of the Kereit tribe, with whom Yesügei had had the relationship of anda, or sworn brother, and at that time the most powerful Mongol prince, for help in recovering Börte. He had had the foresight to rekindle this friendship by presenting Toghril with a sable skin, which he himself had received as a bridal gift. He seems to have had nothing else to offer; yet, in exchange, Toghril promised to reunite Temüjin’s scattered people, and he is said to have redeemed his promise by furnishing 20,000 men and persuading Jamuka, a boyhood friend of Temüdjin’s, to supply an army as well. The contrast between Temüdjin’s destitution and the huge army furnished by his allies is hard to explain, and no authority other than the narrative of the Secret History of The Mongols is available.

*Not my own words.

It's his early life that fascinates me, how he was a somebody, then a nobody, clawed some hope back, then a nobody again, but never gave up. More than just the mindless killer many of you think he may be.

If any of that interested any of you, I'm happy to answer any questions I can about anything to do with Ghengis Khan (the Khan - not me), The Mongol Empire, the other Great Khans, the Golden Horde or Khublai Khan.

Though I expect this to go down like a lead balloon.

"

Not sure how, but I managed to read through the whole lot. I know nothing about Genghis Khan except that he was Mongolian. Still it's an interesting part of history to learn about (If only I had the time )

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

The Chinese? Very well organised "

Didn't the Chin fight mainly defensive battles, from inside fortifications?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?"

Look up the top ten military generals of all time. 6-8 of them will be Mongol Generals. That was the key to their success. The entire army was mounted archers. With bows more powerful, accurate and farther reaching than any Welsh Longbow. They picked the enemy off by swarming around them. Forever feigning retreat, then reengaging.

On foot they were like special forces. They had no baggage train as everyman was self sufficient.

They had access to Chinese gunpowder and siege weaponry.

They were a thorn in Russia and China's side right up until the birth of rifles.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"30 posts on a genghis Khan thread!!! Does the poster above look like genghis khan? "

to be fair, half are mine, like most my threads

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

The Chinese? Very well organised

Didn't the Chin fight mainly defensive battles, from inside fortifications?"
many battles, many scenarios mainly one outcome

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By *dam and slutCouple
over a year ago

Manchester

I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"30 posts on a genghis Khan thread!!! Does the poster above look like genghis khan?

to be fair, half are mine, like most my threads "

I'd much rather read and post in a thread like this that some of the repetitive shite in lounge lately..... #snog

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?"

They had the world's largest CONTINUAL land empire. Second only in size to the British Empire, which is non-continual. They had fuck tons of siege experience. They won, because the Mongol Leadership was second to none. Just like the Military.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

The Chinese? Very well organised

Didn't the Chin fight mainly defensive battles, from inside fortifications?"

Yes. It's here the Mongols fought there hardest battles. But it happened early on in their history.. but continued for decades. Not all of China was conquered at the time of his death. His son Ogedai saw to that.

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By *tingly ByronMan
over a year ago

In a town Fab forgot


"Stingly Byron - please don't copy that text lmfao Well be herd all night just sending five messages.

Not a lot is known about them really. All we have to go on are a few Middle Eastern records and one or two European ones.

And there own history, started by Ogedai Khan (Ghengis's 3rd son) called "Secret History of the Mongols"

Which is where ALL the early stuff comes from..

So must be taken with that in mind, history is written by the winners. Ghengis won a lot."

I didn't. I hit quote and reply.

That's the bit of history that always tickles me when people quote it, they forget it was written by the victorious.

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By *ommenhimCouple
over a year ago

wigan

In your initial post you mention “not the mindless murderer..... “ not sure who thinks that and a bit presumptuous that you are the one to bestow a greater knowledge .?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam"

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

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By *ed-monkeyCouple
over a year ago

Hailsham


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?"

No no you're right ... mongols against a phalanx of panzers ... or a division of challenger 2s ... they may not win ... but hey let's compare like with the like of the time shall we?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Stingly Byron - please don't copy that text lmfao Well be herd all night just sending five messages.

Not a lot is known about them really. All we have to go on are a few Middle Eastern records and one or two European ones.

And there own history, started by Ogedai Khan (Ghengis's 3rd son) called "Secret History of the Mongols"

Which is where ALL the early stuff comes from..

So must be taken with that in mind, history is written by the winners. Ghengis won a lot.

I didn't. I hit quote and reply.

That's the bit of history that always tickles me when people quote it, they forget it was written by the victorious. "

I agree. There's always a few sides to every story.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam"

Wasn't the siege of nanking in 1938?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"In your initial post you mention “not the mindless murderer..... “ not sure who thinks that and a bit presumptuous that you are the one to bestow a greater knowledge .? "

Ok then. Look at it that way if you like.

I'm just trying to talk history and make friends. If someone knows more and wants to share it, I'd be pretty happy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

Look up the top ten military generals of all time. 6-8 of them will be Mongol Generals. That was the key to their success. The entire army was mounted archers. With bows more powerful, accurate and farther reaching than any Welsh Longbow. They picked the enemy off by swarming around them. Forever feigning retreat, then reengaging.

On foot they were like special forces. They had no baggage train as everyman was self sufficient.

They had access to Chinese gunpowder and siege weaponry.

They were a thorn in Russia and China's side right up until the birth of rifles. "

I googled "top ten military generals of all time". The most Mongols on any one list was three, and in all but one list I looked at, Alexander pipped Genghis to the number one spot.

The Mongols had great difficulty overcoming very mountainous, or even hilly territories - their ponies were born and bred on flat terrain and couldn't do inclines very well. Alexander understood that and cross-bred his horses so that they were adaptable to all terrains. I would have to say that in my opinion, Alexander was the better military leader.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

No no you're right ... mongols against a phalanx of panzers ... or a division of challenger 2s ... they may not win ... but hey let's compare like with the like of the time shall we? "

I meant pre-gunpowder. Fucking he'll what's wrong with people? If it bores you, or you dislike me, why comment?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"In your initial post you mention “not the mindless murderer..... “ not sure who thinks that and a bit presumptuous that you are the one to bestow a greater knowledge .?

Ok then. Look at it that way if you like.

I'm just trying to talk history and make friends. If someone knows more and wants to share it, I'd be pretty happy."

Noooooooo let's have an argument!!

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By *dam and slutCouple
over a year ago

Manchester


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies."

Didn't I read somewhere, that his tactic was to offer 3 flags of surrender. Can't remember the colours, but the first was for the city to surrender and no harm would befall the occupants, if that was not accepted a 2nd flag was raised to surrender and all the men folk would die, if that wasn't accepted, a 3rd and final flag signified that all would die.

Adam

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

No no you're right ... mongols against a phalanx of panzers ... or a division of challenger 2s ... they may not win ... but hey let's compare like with the like of the time shall we? "

Eh? Do you know what I mean by "heavy infantry and armour" in relation to the time-frame of the Genghis? Can somebody explain a little military history to this poster, because I can't be bothered.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

No no you're right ... mongols against a phalanx of panzers ... or a division of challenger 2s ... they may not win ... but hey let's compare like with the like of the time shall we?

I meant pre-gunpowder. Fucking he'll what's wrong with people? If it bores you, or you dislike me, why comment?"

Wasn't that comment to me? This thread is getting bloody confusing.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

Look up the top ten military generals of all time. 6-8 of them will be Mongol Generals. That was the key to their success. The entire army was mounted archers. With bows more powerful, accurate and farther reaching than any Welsh Longbow. They picked the enemy off by swarming around them. Forever feigning retreat, then reengaging.

On foot they were like special forces. They had no baggage train as everyman was self sufficient.

They had access to Chinese gunpowder and siege weaponry.

They were a thorn in Russia and China's side right up until the birth of rifles.

I googled "top ten military generals of all time". The most Mongols on any one list was three, and in all but one list I looked at, Alexander pipped Genghis to the number one spot.

The Mongols had great difficulty overcoming very mountainous, or even hilly territories - their ponies were born and bred on flat terrain and couldn't do inclines very well. Alexander understood that and cross-bred his horses so that they were adaptable to all terrains. I would have to say that in my opinion, Alexander was the better military leader."

How many lists have you looked at? There's a lot of mixed opinion on it. I'm willing to concede for sake of argument.

I'd strongly disagree about any terrain being an issue. Read up about the Hashassins or their trek into Georgia or Russia. The Steppe is full of mountains.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Maybe "fan" is the wrong word or phrase,I prefer the term 'somebody who is interested in history, especially the life of genghis khan""

There must be a name for it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

No no you're right ... mongols against a phalanx of panzers ... or a division of challenger 2s ... they may not win ... but hey let's compare like with the like of the time shall we?

I meant pre-gunpowder. Fucking he'll what's wrong with people? If it bores you, or you dislike me, why comment?

Wasn't that comment to me? This thread is getting bloody confusing."
I dunno lol I'm lost

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By *ed-monkeyCouple
over a year ago

Hailsham


"Given that estimates suggest that the Mongols, starting with Genghis Khan, annihilated nearly 5% of the world's population, do you think it's appropriate to be a "fan"?

Oh yes

With equal technology, who would win in a pitched battle - Ghengis or Alexander the Great?

The Mongols would win ANY pitched battle with anyone of equal number.. or in many cases, when they are out numbered.

How do you know that? They had no heavy infantry, little in the way of armour and poor supply chains. As far as I've read, the Mongol's main strength was hard and fast strikes. did they ever come up against an organised army in a pitched battle?

No no you're right ... mongols against a phalanx of panzers ... or a division of challenger 2s ... they may not win ... but hey let's compare like with the like of the time shall we?

I meant pre-gunpowder. Fucking he'll what's wrong with people? If it bores you, or you dislike me, why comment?"

It wasn't because it bored me Khan ... I was responding to the heavy armour post ... I agree with you ... when you compare like with like off the time... the mongols were a force to be reckoned with at that time

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Sorry

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Maybe "fan" is the wrong word or phrase,I prefer the term 'somebody who is interested in history, especially the life of genghis khan"

There must be a name for it.

"

Interested

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By *ed-monkeyCouple
over a year ago

Hailsham


"Sorry "

I should think so hehe

Good intellectual post though

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Heavily armoured infantry.. Not peasantry. Which many infantry units in ancient armies were.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Maybe "fan" is the wrong word or phrase,I prefer the term 'somebody who is interested in history, especially the life of genghis khan"

There must be a name for it.

"

Enthusiast

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies."

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Maybe "fan" is the wrong word or phrase,I prefer the term 'somebody who is interested in history, especially the life of genghis khan"

There must be a name for it.

Enthusiast "

That's the word we're looking for

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Maybe "fan" is the wrong word or phrase,I prefer the term 'somebody who is interested in history, especially the life of genghis khan"

There must be a name for it.

"

I'm happy with fan, so long as people understand, I still care about the lives lost.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Sorry

I should think so hehe

Good intellectual post though "

What did you think I meant by "heavy infantry and armour" when discussing military tactics of the 12th/13th century?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Sorry

I should think so hehe

Good intellectual post though

What did you think I meant by "heavy infantry and armour" when discussing military tactics of the 12th/13th century?"

If any of them had a Pander, it'd have changed things I reckon

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Sorry

I should think so hehe

Good intellectual post though

What did you think I meant by "heavy infantry and armour" when discussing military tactics of the 12th/13th century?

If any of them had a Pander, it'd have changed things I reckon "

ha has fiat panda

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I remember reading that silk shirts (easier to remove an arrow from a wound) and stirrups allowed him supremacy.

Who'd have thought silk shirts were better than armour

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By *ed-monkeyCouple
over a year ago

Hailsham


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?"

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Heavily armoured infantry.. Not peasantry. Which many infantry units in ancient armies were."

The Mongol's did not have heavily armoured infantry at all!

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By *ed-monkeyCouple
over a year ago

Hailsham


"Heavily armoured infantry.. Not peasantry. Which many infantry units in ancient armies were.

The Mongol's did not have heavily armoured infantry at all!"

And yet they amassed a massive empire

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?"

No. Everyone involved in war, was at the time and before. You had to be using swords and stuff. For me, given he repeatedly lost everything and suffered greatly as a youth. He turned it round into being a Force of Nature.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?"

I don't know, that's what I'm asking.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I remember reading that silk shirts (easier to remove an arrow from a wound) and stirrups allowed him supremacy.

Who'd have thought silk shirts were better than armour"

Silk folded several times had the ability to withstand arrows because of the toughness of the individual fibres. Not so good against a sword slash though, it ruined the shield completely.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?

I don't know, that's what I'm asking. "

Because, sometimes we don't get all the information from all sources.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I remember reading that silk shirts (easier to remove an arrow from a wound) and stirrups allowed him supremacy.

Who'd have thought silk shirts were better than armour"

lol.. worn under the armour. If anything got through the leather.. the silk would help slow it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Heavily armoured infantry.. Not peasantry. Which many infantry units in ancient armies were.

The Mongol's did not have heavily armoured infantry at all!

And yet they amassed a massive empire"

They did indeed.

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By *ed-monkeyCouple
over a year ago

Hailsham


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?

I don't know, that's what I'm asking.

Because, sometimes we don't get all the information from all sources. "

There was no Google or wikipedia back then ... so no reliable source of info

Hehe

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?"

Its funny you should mention Crusades. You could argue, had the Mongols not utterly devastated the Islamic world, then the Crusades could have gone another way entirely.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Heavily armoured infantry.. Not peasantry. Which many infantry units in ancient armies were.

The Mongol's did not have heavily armoured infantry at all!"

I don't think they did. Every soldier was an archer on horseback. The film 'Mongol' Paints the picture that they may have.

I think they were silk shirt wearing, leather clad archers. Heavy armour would have slowed them down.

Ps.. I bet the general who popped up was Tsubodai?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?

I don't know, that's what I'm asking.

Because, sometimes we don't get all the information from all sources.

There was no Google or wikipedia back then ... so no reliable source of info

Hehe"

The museum at Ulaanbaatar is a fantastic source of information, and refreshingly, it doesn't "heroize" Geghis but puts forward good exhibits and unbiased reading material. Well worth a visit if you're ever out there.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?

I don't know, that's what I'm asking.

Because, sometimes we don't get all the information from all sources. "

Mongols were no more brutal in combat or peacetime than anyone else. They have a brutal reputation for offering cities a chance to surrender. Of they don't. They slaughter the entire city. Even if they give up after they were offered the chance. Men, women, children, sick, babies, the old, cats, dogs, livestock and soil. They took anyone of any skill.. blacksmiths etc. and killed the rest en mass. Hence the women throwing themselves to their death.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?

I don't know, that's what I'm asking.

Because, sometimes we don't get all the information from all sources.

There was no Google or wikipedia back then ... so no reliable source of info

Hehe

The museum at Ulaanbaatar is a fantastic source of information, and refreshingly, it doesn't "heroize" Geghis but puts forward good exhibits and unbiased reading material. Well worth a visit if you're ever out there."

I'd love to visit Mongolia. I want to go stay with a family in a yurt and chip in. Earn my keep. Same with any tribal people really. I love it. I'm very jealous.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?

I don't know, that's what I'm asking.

Because, sometimes we don't get all the information from all sources.

There was no Google or wikipedia back then ... so no reliable source of info

Hehe

The museum at Ulaanbaatar is a fantastic source of information, and refreshingly, it doesn't "heroize" Geghis but puts forward good exhibits and unbiased reading material. Well worth a visit if you're ever out there."

Such is Ghengis Stature in the world today.. that China are trying to claim both Ghengis and Kublai as their own. As is Mongolia. Also Other Central Asian States using grandson Tamerlain Khans prestige.

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By *uck-RogersMan
over a year ago

Tarka trail


"History Post, it's long, if that's not your thing, avoid at all costs.

Various dates are given for the birth of Temüdjin (or Temuchin), as Genghis Khan was named by his father Yesügei. The chronology of Temüdjin’s early life is uncertain. He may have been born in 1155, in 1162 (the date favoured today in Mongolia), or in 1167. According to legend, his birth was auspicious, because he came into the world holding a clot of blood in his hand. He is also said to have been of divine origin, his first ancestor having been a gray wolf “Born with a destiny from heaven on high.” Yet his early years were anything but promising. When he was nine, his father Yesügei, a member of the royal Borjigin clan of the Mongols, was poisoned by a band of Tatars, another nomadic people, in continuance of an old feud.

With Yesügei dead, the remainder of the clan, led by the rival Taychiut family, abandoned his widow, Höelün, and her children, considering them too weak to exercise leadership and seized the opportunity to usurp power. This was a Death Sentance on the Mongol Steppe with winter fast approaching.

For a time the small family led a life of extreme poverty, eating roots and fish instead of the normal nomad diet of mutton and mare’s milk. During this period Temudjin found his older brother eating his own kills and not sharing it amongst the starving family. Later Temudjin and his younger brother killed the older brother for his greed.

Two anecdotes illustrate both Temüdjin’s straitened circumstances and, more significantly, the power he already had of attracting supporters through sheer force of personality. Once he was captured by the Taychiut, who, rather than killing him, kept him around their camps, wearing a wooden collar. One night, when they were feasting, Temüdjin, noticing that he was being ineptly guarded, knocked down the sentry with a blow from his wooden collar and fled. The Taychiut searched all night for him, and he was seen by one of their people, who, impressed by the fire in his eyes, did not denounce him but helped him escape at the risk of his own life. On another occasion horse thieves came and stole eight of the nine horses that the small family owned. Temüjin pursued them. On the way he stopped to ask a young stranger, called Bo’orchu, if he had seen the horses. Bo’orchu immediately left the milking he was engaged in, gave Temüdjin a fresh horse, and set out with him to help recover the lost beasts. He refused any reward but, recognizing Temüjin’s authority, attached himself irrevocably to him as a nökör, or free companion, abandoning his own family.

Temüdjin and his family apparently preserved a considerable fund of prestige as members of the royal Borjigin clan, in spite of their rejection by it. Among other things, he was able to claim the wife to whom Yesügei had betrothed him just before his death. But the Merkit people, a tribe living in northern Mongolia, bore Temüjin a grudge, because Yesügei had stolen his own wife, Höelün, from one of their men, and in their turn they ravished Temüjin’s wife Börte. Temüjin felt able to appeal to Toghril, Khan of the Kereit tribe, with whom Yesügei had had the relationship of anda, or sworn brother, and at that time the most powerful Mongol prince, for help in recovering Börte. He had had the foresight to rekindle this friendship by presenting Toghril with a sable skin, which he himself had received as a bridal gift. He seems to have had nothing else to offer; yet, in exchange, Toghril promised to reunite Temüjin’s scattered people, and he is said to have redeemed his promise by furnishing 20,000 men and persuading Jamuka, a boyhood friend of Temüdjin’s, to supply an army as well. The contrast between Temüdjin’s destitution and the huge army furnished by his allies is hard to explain, and no authority other than the narrative of the Secret History of The Mongols is available.

*Not my own words.

It's his early life that fascinates me, how he was a somebody, then a nobody, clawed some hope back, then a nobody again, but never gave up. More than just the mindless killer many of you think he may be.

If any of that interested any of you, I'm happy to answer any questions I can about anything to do with Ghengis Khan (the Khan - not me), The Mongol Empire, the other Great Khans, the Golden Horde or Khublai Khan.

Though I expect this to go down like a lead balloon.

If it's a secret, how do you know all this? "
Marco told him

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

He told Kublai, not Ghengis

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?

I don't know, that's what I'm asking.

Because, sometimes we don't get all the information from all sources.

There was no Google or wikipedia back then ... so no reliable source of info

Hehe

The museum at Ulaanbaatar is a fantastic source of information, and refreshingly, it doesn't "heroize" Geghis but puts forward good exhibits and unbiased reading material. Well worth a visit if you're ever out there.

I'd love to visit Mongolia. I want to go stay with a family in a yurt and chip in. Earn my keep. Same with any tribal people really. I love it. I'm very jealous. "

They call them gers, and they're a bit smelly Lovely people though, and the salt tea's nice

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I read of his attack on Nanking and the many womenfolk, approximately 6000 who dressed in white, stood on the battlements and as one jumped, dropped like snowdrops to their deaths rather than be taken alive.

Adam

You're right. The Mongols weren't very forgiving to cities who didn't surrender. I think this was a military tactic designed to reduce the overall number of deaths in total campaign. Make an example of one or two, the rest will fold.

That's a particularly gruesome example of the fear the Mongols put into their enemies.

Is it the gruesomeness and barbaric nature of him that you are fascinated with?

Was he barbaric?

Compare what else was going on in the world in and around that time ... give or take the crusades were around the same time ... were the Christians any less barbaric toward the Moors?

I don't know, that's what I'm asking.

Because, sometimes we don't get all the information from all sources.

There was no Google or wikipedia back then ... so no reliable source of info

Hehe

The museum at Ulaanbaatar is a fantastic source of information, and refreshingly, it doesn't "heroize" Geghis but puts forward good exhibits and unbiased reading material. Well worth a visit if you're ever out there.

I'd love to visit Mongolia. I want to go stay with a family in a yurt and chip in. Earn my keep. Same with any tribal people really. I love it. I'm very jealous.

They call them gers, and they're a bit smelly Lovely people though, and the salt tea's nice "

I knew Yurt wasn't the right word lol, I couldn't remember Ger though I've seen a few travel guide/adventure series where people do it. They've always come across as lovely people.

I did this once on Facebook, the whole.. history thing. Only it was in relation to a Tribal photo. All I said was "To think, a tribe like this was conquered all of Asia" Steam rolled into a history lesson, with people very much like you and the other posters on this thread. All teaching different bits. Like ours has. Only I had Mongolian people chipping in thanking me for spreading their history in public and private I was gobsmacked. Bit concerned about any bits I might have got wrong afterwards, but chuffed they liked it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Love the history of empires, how they grew from nothing, aspired to be great only to be toppled by the one thing that created them... Mans lust for power.. Confusious says only wise men should hold power but a wise man does not seek power.. Or the other ditty power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.. The thing is at the time of Ghenkis his method of peace through superior firepower, in his case the bow and the magnificence of cavalry and his tactical ability, this was how the world was being "managed", with ruthless empires throughout. The only way you can hold the tribal way of life in check is by being a hard taskmaster. Dont get me wrong, I am not in favour of such a life but it was the way and if you dig deep, it is still found. Afghan is an example.. After we supported Massoud against the Russians and they withdrew and our backing removed the warring factions turned in on themselves and fought hammer n tong to become the new world order. I knew a local photographer who was actually an Afghan tribal leader. On one visit back he was asked to sit in on a ruling.. A young man had been stealing food from other villagers, thru greed for he had enough and was stealing from those with less. He presided and sentenced him to the loss of one hand. He was a proud man and so carried out the sentence himself rather than delegate. When he spoke to me he told me that the tribal system will always hang on a thread and so ruthless examples at times were necessary to maintain the rwuilibrium, for it was all that they understood of law. Look at South Africa, Mandelas release was a great thing and should have settled the country instantly but it was still at odds due to the tribal system as Chief Butelese felt the zulu nation should lead the country which led to more brutal in fighting. What Ghenkis achieved was phenomenal but not unique, in fact, even now we can look back at our own brutality in building the British empire, we could suggest it still goes on today but it is teported in such a way as to appear it is the right thing.. Wow written enough me thinks

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By *tella HeelsTV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

Sorry it bored me too much

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Love the history of empires, how they grew from nothing, aspired to be great only to be toppled by the one thing that created them... Mans lust for power.. Confusious says only wise men should hold power but a wise man does not seek power.. Or the other ditty power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.. The thing is at the time of Ghenkis his method of peace through superior firepower, in his case the bow and the magnificence of cavalry and his tactical ability, this was how the world was being "managed", with ruthless empires throughout. The only way you can hold the tribal way of life in check is by being a hard taskmaster. Dont get me wrong, I am not in favour of such a life but it was the way and if you dig deep, it is still found. Afghan is an example.. After we supported Massoud against the Russians and they withdrew and our backing removed the warring factions turned in on themselves and fought hammer n tong to become the new world order. I knew a local photographer who was actually an Afghan tribal leader. On one visit back he was asked to sit in on a ruling.. A young man had been stealing food from other villagers, thru greed for he had enough and was stealing from those with less. He presided and sentenced him to the loss of one hand. He was a proud man and so carried out the sentence himself rather than delegate. When he spoke to me he told me that the tribal system will always hang on a thread and so ruthless examples at times were necessary to maintain the rwuilibrium, for it was all that they understood of law. Look at South Africa, Mandelas release was a great thing and should have settled the country instantly but it was still at odds due to the tribal system as Chief Butelese felt the zulu nation should lead the country which led to more brutal in fighting. What Ghenkis achieved was phenomenal but not unique, in fact, even now we can look back at our own brutality in building the British empire, we could suggest it still goes on today but it is teported in such a way as to appear it is the right thing.. Wow written enough me thinks "

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Sorry it bored me too much"

So much, you felt the need to say something, rather than just ignore it, like any sensible person would

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Sorry it bored me too much"

May as well take this moment to let you know most of your posts bore the shit out of me.

How many views? zzzzz

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Sorry it bored me too much"

No need

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By *tingly ByronMan
over a year ago

In a town Fab forgot

What an interesting thread.

*no sarcasm.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"What an interesting thread.

*no sarcasm."

I'm glad you like it

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By *ily Con CarneTV/TS
over a year ago

Cornwall

The Mongols were not invincible, yes they had many excellent commanders due to their meritocratic leadership system, incredible political unity (initially) and great discipline, but they were also defeated many times, even at their height (although they kept coming back for more). Their way of warfare was not in any way revolutionary, they were just better at the basics than most of the steppe nomad practitioners. Most of their foes were plagued by poor leadership, internal dissension and corrupt government. Against capable opponents with strong political unity, they did not do so well. Example: the Delhi Sultanate, the Mamluks, the Hungarians on the second round (after the initial severe defeat).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The Mongols were not invincible, yes they had many excellent commanders due to their meritocratic leadership system, incredible political unity (initially) and great discipline, but they were also defeated many times, even at their height (although they kept coming back for more). Their way of warfare was not in any way revolutionary, they were just better at the basics than most of the steppe nomad practitioners. Most of their foes were plagued by poor leadership, internal dissension and corrupt government. Against capable opponents with strong political unity, they did not do so well. Example: the Delhi Sultanate, the Mamluks, the Hungarians on the second round (after the initial severe defeat)."

Very interesting

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Sorry it bored me too much

So much, you felt the need to say something, rather than just ignore it, like any sensible person would "

Well said...

Some annoying self righteous fuckers on here....if I see a thread I'm not interested in say a thread about rugby I won't go in and comment saying it's boring it's shit or whatever I'll just not click on that thread

The older I get (I'm only 36) the more interested in history I never was when I was younger I chose geography over history lol

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By *ily Con CarneTV/TS
over a year ago

Cornwall


"Sorry it bored me too much

So much, you felt the need to say something, rather than just ignore it, like any sensible person would

Well said...

Some annoying self righteous fuckers on here....if I see a thread I'm not interested in say a thread about rugby I won't go in and comment saying it's boring it's shit or whatever I'll just not click on that thread

"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Heres something which is loosely connected, in the sense that it shows the speed with which people slip back into the power game, call it tribal, call it power and force over smaller, weaker groups.. Big fish absorbing little fish... A friend of mine was part of a government commission involving military, emergency services etc, they were to analyse the possibility of the national grid going down nationwide. The result was that within two days of government seizing fuel resources etc there would be armed security on the streets due to organised gangs looting, basically the laws of this country would start to crack... Within the week martial law would be declared to ensure the laws of the country were followed, they also said live ammo would now be in use by security forces.. Final outcome would be open civil unrest and breakdown in a week thereabouts... So, if you liken this to the old empires such as the Romans, Egyptians, Mongol etc there is not a great deal of difference in the use of force to enforce one groups power over anothers... I did say loosely .. As for the query is it possible that Ghenkis was murdered, I would say yes.. Again look at the great empires and leaders.. Even America... Some of the most protected leaders in the history of man were taken down by those closest to them.. So the possibility exists, alas we ll never know...

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By *ily Con CarneTV/TS
over a year ago

Cornwall

The Romans did kick their butts now and again.....

We know about the catastrophic Roman defeat against the Parthians at Carrhae. However, people did not know about the catastrophic Parthian defeats against the Romans at Battle of the Cilician Gates - Battle of Amanus Pass - , and Battle of Mount Gindarus, in which the Parthian commander in chiefs were slain. Most people were also not aware that the Romans sacked the Parthian capital of Ctesiphon (3 times), all within a single century.

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By *ily Con CarneTV/TS
over a year ago

Cornwall

oh... just to add...The Romans also managed to put up an excellent frontier defense against incursions by the Sarmatian tribes; although several Roman legions were lost and several Roman commanders were killed, the empire always managed to force the Iazyges and their allies to submit and serve Rome in the end...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"oh... just to add...The Romans also managed to put up an excellent frontier defense against incursions by the Sarmatian tribes; although several Roman legions were lost and several Roman commanders were killed, the empire always managed to force the Iazyges and their allies to submit and serve Rome in the end...

I find history of empires fascinating, particularly Roman.. I did run Hadrians wall dressed as a legionary as part of some field archeology, the findings made you realise how much went into perfecting the fighting machine, down to the smallest detail. At the end of the day Rome collapsed inwards, their own politics etc... Militarily, though they suffered defeats as a rule they were quick to learn and modify their response to different warfare that they encountered.. Al very interesting"

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By *ily Con CarneTV/TS
over a year ago

Cornwall

The only drawback the Mongols had was that "cavalry based armies was the same as an infantry based one ie. a bit of a one trick pony. The Mongols could cover vast stretches of steppe terrain easily, even in winter, but put a series of mountain ranges and forest in their path and they baulked. In such terrain, infantry armies (Romans) actually had superior mobility, especially because their logistics were much less demanding. The vast number of horses that the Mongols had, which allowed them to travel forty miles in one day in the plains, became an absolute logistical nightmare in wooded and mountainous terrain. And the Mongols tremendous advantage in scouting would be nullified, as the Roman excellent auxiliary light infantry could actually outfight the Mongols screen of scouting light horse in such landscape, making the Mongols more susceptible to ambush. apart from the areas of Mesopotamia and Syria, very little Roman territory consisted of vast open terrain.

But hey the Mongols were still pretty awesome .

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By *ily Con CarneTV/TS
over a year ago

Cornwall


"

I find history of empires fascinating, particularly Roman.. I did run Hadrians wall dressed as a legionary as part of some field archeology, the findings made you realise how much went into perfecting the fighting machine, down to the smallest detail. At the end of the day Rome collapsed inwards, their own politics etc... Militarily, though they suffered defeats as a rule they were quick to learn and modify their response to different warfare that they encountered.. Al very interesting "

The Romans were pretty cool actually and ruled for quite a while... the Hadrians wall run sounds a lot of fun too lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

I find history of empires fascinating, particularly Roman.. I did run Hadrians wall dressed as a legionary as part of some field archeology, the findings made you realise how much went into perfecting the fighting machine, down to the smallest detail. At the end of the day Rome collapsed inwards, their own politics etc... Militarily, though they suffered defeats as a rule they were quick to learn and modify their response to different warfare that they encountered.. Al very interesting

The Romans were pretty cool actually and ruled for quite a while... the Hadrians wall run sounds a lot of fun too lol "

The Romans certainly were an efficient force, but they did destroy a lot of history - Carthage, for example. Scipio is a definite contender for the top 10 of generals.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"The Mongols were not invincible, yes they had many excellent commanders due to their meritocratic leadership system, incredible political unity (initially) and great discipline, but they were also defeated many times, even at their height (although they kept coming back for more). Their way of warfare was not in any way revolutionary, they were just better at the basics than most of the steppe nomad practitioners. Most of their foes were plagued by poor leadership, internal dissension and corrupt government. Against capable opponents with strong political unity, they did not do so well. Example: the Delhi Sultanate, the Mamluks, the Hungarians on the second round (after the initial severe defeat)."
Mamaluk defeat was only a small contingent on Mongols left to defend the area, whilst a 20,000 strong scouting party went North to Hungary and Europe.

Nobody defeated the combined might of the Empire as a standing army. They might have defeated elements of it, hence the Mongols always coming back for more. Don't forget they were fighting multiple wars on multiple fronts during most of their expansion.

love the input though

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"The Romans did kick their butts now and again.....

We know about the catastrophic Roman defeat against the Parthians at Carrhae. However, people did not know about the catastrophic Parthian defeats against the Romans at Battle of the Cilician Gates - Battle of Amanus Pass - , and Battle of Mount Gindarus, in which the Parthian commander in chiefs were slain. Most people were also not aware that the Romans sacked the Parthian capital of Ctesiphon (3 times), all within a single century. "

The Romans and Mongols never met. The Romans and every other empire faced numerous different steppe tribes. The best armies always had a few mercenary turkish/Steppe tribes for a reason.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"The Romans did kick their butts now and again.....

We know about the catastrophic Roman defeat against the Parthians at Carrhae. However, people did not know about the catastrophic Parthian defeats against the Romans at Battle of the Cilician Gates - Battle of Amanus Pass - , and Battle of Mount Gindarus, in which the Parthian commander in chiefs were slain. Most people were also not aware that the Romans sacked the Parthian capital of Ctesiphon (3 times), all within a single century.

The Romans and Mongols never met. The Romans and every other empire faced numerous different steppe tribes. The best armies always had a few mercenary turkish/Steppe tribes for a reason."

Even the Byzantium Empire didn't really have to face an enmass Mongol invasion. Just branches of it and people like them.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"The only drawback the Mongols had was that "cavalry based armies was the same as an infantry based one ie. a bit of a one trick pony. The Mongols could cover vast stretches of steppe terrain easily, even in winter, but put a series of mountain ranges and forest in their path and they baulked. In such terrain, infantry armies (Romans) actually had superior mobility, especially because their logistics were much less demanding. The vast number of horses that the Mongols had, which allowed them to travel forty miles in one day in the plains, became an absolute logistical nightmare in wooded and mountainous terrain. And the Mongols tremendous advantage in scouting would be nullified, as the Roman excellent auxiliary light infantry could actually outfight the Mongols screen of scouting light horse in such landscape, making the Mongols more susceptible to ambush. apart from the areas of Mesopotamia and Syria, very little Roman territory consisted of vast open terrain.

But hey the Mongols were still pretty awesome ."

Again.. see their march into Georgia, destruction of the Assassin's in middle East. Both examples of mountain warfare. Hungary to Poland and on into Russia they faced wooded terrain and used it to their advantage. The Steppe has mountains, grasslands and plenty of forested areas.

Terrain was NEVER an issue for Mongols. They were far from one trick ponies either.

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By *ily Con CarneTV/TS
over a year ago

Cornwall


"The Romans did kick their butts now and again.....

We know about the catastrophic Roman defeat against the Parthians at Carrhae. However, people did not know about the catastrophic Parthian defeats against the Romans at Battle of the Cilician Gates - Battle of Amanus Pass - , and Battle of Mount Gindarus, in which the Parthian commander in chiefs were slain. Most people were also not aware that the Romans sacked the Parthian capital of Ctesiphon (3 times), all within a single century.

The Romans and Mongols never met. The Romans and every other empire faced numerous different steppe tribes. The best armies always had a few mercenary turkish/Steppe tribes for a reason."

I actually concur I was using the term Pathians in a sort of contextual way ....

I meant to say that when Rome was at their height,. Still I think the Mongols up against the 1st century legions would've not been very difficult for Rome to handle. The legions were well drilled in making decisive formation changes for whatever occasion along with their cavalry, would have came out on top 9 out of 10.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"The Romans did kick their butts now and again.....

We know about the catastrophic Roman defeat against the Parthians at Carrhae. However, people did not know about the catastrophic Parthian defeats against the Romans at Battle of the Cilician Gates - Battle of Amanus Pass - , and Battle of Mount Gindarus, in which the Parthian commander in chiefs were slain. Most people were also not aware that the Romans sacked the Parthian capital of Ctesiphon (3 times), all within a single century.

The Romans and Mongols never met. The Romans and every other empire faced numerous different steppe tribes. The best armies always had a few mercenary turkish/Steppe tribes for a reason.

I actually concur I was using the term Pathians in a sort of contextual way ....

I meant to say that when Rome was at their height,. Still I think the Mongols up against the 1st century legions would've not been very difficult for Rome to handle. The legions were well drilled in making decisive formation changes for whatever occasion along with their cavalry, would have came out on top 9 out of 10."

Mongol bows could pierce Roman Armour. Romans wouldn't have gotten close. Hence the Byzantium Empire got taken over by a relatively small group of people, much like the Mongols.

I agree, the Romans were pretty formidable. But Mongols swarmed around their enemies.. always doing what Alexander the Great did the one time. A full encirclement.

The only people to come close to stopping them were the Southern Chinese Forces who held off the longest.

The Mongols stopped at SE Asia, venturing no further South than Vietnam. The jungle didn't agree with them.

Most of their "Defeats" Came down to things like the Death of a Khan. If Ogedai hadn't died when he did and the Mongol succession laws being as lax as they are.. The Hungarians wild have been swamped upon their return. All of Europe, including the UK woukd have been taken, easily.

Same for the Egyptians.

The Japanese were lucky with a Divine wind. They were also facing a more traditional Chinese Army/navy as Khublai preferred the settled life.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

May have Hannibal and Alexander mixed up there

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By *ily Con CarneTV/TS
over a year ago

Cornwall


"

All of Europe, including the UK would have been taken, easily.

"

But we had Churchill.... (tongue in cheek comment lol)

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"

All of Europe, including the UK would have been taken, easily.

But we had Churchill.... (tongue in cheek comment lol)"

"We shall never surreder"

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By *laymates30Couple
over a year ago

The West

Anyone read Conn Iggulden’s series based on the life of Genghis Khan? I loved Tudor series & the Caesar series as well. He went and lived with nomadic tribes in mongolia for a year as part of his research.

Worth a read.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Anyone read Conn Iggulden’s series based on the life of Genghis Khan? I loved Tudor series & the Caesar series as well. He went and lived with nomadic tribes in mongolia for a year as part of his research.

Worth a read."

Is that a programme as well?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Anyone read Conn Iggulden’s series based on the life of Genghis Khan? I loved Tudor series & the Caesar series as well. He went and lived with nomadic tribes in mongolia for a year as part of his research.

Worth a read."

Yes.. it's great. I've also read his dangerous book for boys. It's for my son's.. though they've not bothered looking at it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

"Mongol" is a great film about his early life. Covering most of what happened in my original post. It's in Mongolian though, so you have to be ok with subs. I think it adds atmosphere. Lots of spooky throat singing.

Supposedly 1st part of a trilogy.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Anyone read Conn Iggulden’s series based on the life of Genghis Khan? I loved Tudor series & the Caesar series as well. He went and lived with nomadic tribes in mongolia for a year as part of his research.

Worth a read.

Is that a programme as well? "

there's on on Netflix.. but it's about Marco Polo meeting Kublai Khan.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Warriors of Genghis Khan by Bad News is an epic song... on you tube i believe

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Very interesting. Why did he not take over the western world...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Great post dude

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By *.gerri.xTV/TS
over a year ago

North west visiting bpool

I'm so easily led - now loaded up ghengis legend of the ten

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Did Genghis Kahn really like Twinkies? I kinda got all my info about him from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

I find history of empires fascinating, particularly Roman.. I did run Hadrians wall dressed as a legionary as part of some field archeology, the findings made you realise how much went into perfecting the fighting machine, down to the smallest detail. At the end of the day Rome collapsed inwards, their own politics etc... Militarily, though they suffered defeats as a rule they were quick to learn and modify their response to different warfare that they encountered.. Al very interesting

The Romans were pretty cool actually and ruled for quite a while... the Hadrians wall run sounds a lot of fun too lol "

The run was interesting.. Did it in tunic, with shield, sword and carrying cross... The shield was a hell of a piece of kit if running into wind with it slung on back as it did act as a bloody sail when the winds hit the exposed sections running parallel to ribcage but ingenious when it came to carrying their packs.. BSically imagine a short crucifix effect, the long end would rest in the hand and the weight was strapped to the cross part, but then this was rested across the shoulders and onto the top of the shield and in such a way the weight was evenly distributed, similar to a modern rucksack. The sword, i thought would keep catching and moving but nope... It sat out of the way just above the knee so no tripping and it fitted perfectly into my armpit.. Ran for miles in total comfort

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Very interesting. Why did he not take over the western world..."

Ghengis died. Mongol succession laws are a strange thing. Usually it'd be the eldest son. Unless the Khans brother was more powerful or another son was.

In Ghengis's case there were questions over the legitimacy of his first son. His wife was taken and bred with, as the first post described. All Mongols knew this, Ghengis loved him as his own and would have given the title too him. His second son wouldn't have it though and threw his toys out the pram. He ended up leaving the Empire to his third son Ogedai. Ogedai was a good leader, but also an alcoholic who died quite young. in the space of about 10yrs the Mongols lost two great khans.

Each time a Khan dies. The Mongol humans must regroup for a Khurraltai back on the Steppe and choose a new leader.

The Mongols reached as far into Europe as Poland. It wasn't meant to be though.

After Ogedai's death the Mongol Empire was in disarray with no leadership for quite a while. Eventually splitting into the Khanates. The Golden Horde in Russia, which still gave Russians problems right up until they had rifles. The Illkhanate of central Asia, controlled by Tamerlain. Finally the remaining Mongolian part and China was in the hands of Khublai. Where the poem Xanadu comes from.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan

A stately pleasure-dome decree:

Where Alph, the sacred river, ran

Through caverns measureless to man

Down to a sunless sea.

So twice five miles of fertile ground

With walls and towers were girdled round:

And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,

Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;

And here were forests ancient as the hills,

Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

But oh! that deep romantic chasm which slanted

Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover!

A savage place! as holy and enchanted

As e’er beneath a waning moon was haunted

By woman wailing for her demon-lover!

And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,

As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,

A mighty fountain momently was forced:

Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst

Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,

Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher’s flail:

And ‘mid these dancing rocks at once and ever

It flung up momently the sacred river.

Five miles meandering with a mazy motion

Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,

Then reached the caverns measureless to man,

And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean:

And ’mid this tumult Kubla heard from far

Ancestral voices prophesying war!

The shadow of the dome of pleasure

Floated midway on the waves;

Where was heard the mingled measure

From the fountain and the caves.

It was a miracle of rare device,

A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!

A damsel with a dulcimer

In a vision once I saw:

It was an Abyssinian maid

And on her dulcimer she played,

Singing of Mount Abora.

Could I revive within me

Her symphony and song,

To such a deep delight ’twould win me,

That with music loud and long,

I would build that dome in air,

That sunny dome! those caves of ice!

And all who heard should see them there,

And all should cry, Beware! Beware!

His flashing eyes, his floating hair!

Weave a circle round him thrice,

And close your eyes with holy dread

For he on honey-dew hath fed,

And d*unk the milk of Paradise.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

oooh found a link to a good documentary. It's a long one though - be warned.

https://youtu.be/XAFnxV2GYRU

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By *irty_DeedsMan
over a year ago

Teesside

Dan Carling did a really good podcast few years back on the Khans. Worth a list. Hardccore History - Wrath of the Khan's, if you can track it down. Also did one on Caesar in Gaul.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Dan Carling did a really good podcast few years back on the Khans. Worth a list. Hardccore History - Wrath of the Khan's, if you can track it down. Also did one on Caesar in Gaul. "

Maaaaaaaaaate.. Dan Carlin's Hardcore History re-ignited my love of history. Wrath of the Khans was first one I heard. I lap up any podcast he produces. You're my new best Fab Friend!

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By *irty_DeedsMan
over a year ago

Teesside

I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The amazing thing was his army. From a horde to well organised and equipped force They even wore silk under their armour to enable arrows to be pulled out.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years."

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ah, about that book

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To seek the sacred river Alph

To walk the caves of ice

To break my fast on honeydew

And drink the milk of Paradise

I had heard the whispered tales of immortality

The deepest mystery

From an ancient book I took a clue

I scaled the frozen mountain tops of eastern lands unknown

Time and Man alone

Searching for the lost Xanadu

Xanadu...

To stand within the Pleasure Dome

Decreed by Kubla Khan

To taste anew the fruits of life

The last immortal man

To find the sacred river Alph

To walk the caves of ice

Oh, I will dine on honeydew

And drink the milk of Paradise

A thousand years have come and gone but time has passed me by

Stars stopped in the sky

Frozen in an everlasting view

Waiting for the world to end, weary of the night

Praying for the light

Prison of the lost

Xanadu

Xanadu...

Held within the Pleasure Dome

Decreed by Kubla Khan

To taste my bitter triumph

As a mad immortal man

Nevermore shall I return

Escape these caves of ice

For I have dined on honeydew

And d*unk the milk of Paradise

Courtesy of Rush - Xanadu

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By *irty_DeedsMan
over a year ago

Teesside

Genghis Khan and Rush in the same thread, heaven

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By *irthandgirthMan
over a year ago

Camberley occasionally doncaster


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested. "

Wasn't his grave ridden over by a thousand horsemen for a week?

Always loved the Mongol history. At one point they achieved the largest pincer maneouvre in history, which is still taught in military academies,one half on an army sweeping round 1600 miles to flank an enemy that was already being engaged. The logistics of this operation are staggering. Their mastery of co-ordination also makes them stand out. Their messenger posts spanned vast swathes of the continent to relay messages from commander to commander..

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By *andybeachWoman
over a year ago

In the middle


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested. "

I watched a very interesting programme about this very thing a week or so ago, it’s amazing how they can spot things just by looking at land features, they think they have found the spot but are unable to dig as it is sacred ground, well worth a watch

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Ah, about that book "

You know

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"To seek the sacred river Alph

To walk the caves of ice

To break my fast on honeydew

And drink the milk of Paradise

I had heard the whispered tales of immortality

The deepest mystery

From an ancient book I took a clue

I scaled the frozen mountain tops of eastern lands unknown

Time and Man alone

Searching for the lost Xanadu

Xanadu...

To stand within the Pleasure Dome

Decreed by Kubla Khan

To taste anew the fruits of life

The last immortal man

To find the sacred river Alph

To walk the caves of ice

Oh, I will dine on honeydew

And drink the milk of Paradise

A thousand years have come and gone but time has passed me by

Stars stopped in the sky

Frozen in an everlasting view

Waiting for the world to end, weary of the night

Praying for the light

Prison of the lost

Xanadu

Xanadu...

Held within the Pleasure Dome

Decreed by Kubla Khan

To taste my bitter triumph

As a mad immortal man

Nevermore shall I return

Escape these caves of ice

For I have dined on honeydew

And d*unk the milk of Paradise

Courtesy of Rush - Xanadu"

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

Wasn't his grave ridden over by a thousand horsemen for a week?

Always loved the Mongol history. At one point they achieved the largest pincer maneouvre in history, which is still taught in military academies,one half on an army sweeping round 1600 miles to flank an enemy that was already being engaged. The logistics of this operation are staggering. Their mastery of co-ordination also makes them stand out. Their messenger posts spanned vast swathes of the continent to relay messages from commander to commander.."

Yes.. I tried to explain earlier up the thread that the Mongols would have destroyed any force who came before them.. but it wasn't widely accepted.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

I watched a very interesting programme about this very thing a week or so ago, it’s amazing how they can spot things just by looking at land features, they think they have found the spot but are unable to dig as it is sacred ground, well worth a watch "

post a link if you find it please

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Are you a Mongol,

Are you a Mongol,

Are you a Mongol in disguise

Are you a Mongol in disguise.

Football ditty tune.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Are you a Mongol,

Are you a Mongol,

Are you a Mongol in disguise

Are you a Mongol in disguise.

Football ditty tune."

Can't say I know it. Knowing football I hope that doesn't mean what I think it does

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Are you a Mongol,

Are you a Mongol,

Are you a Mongol in disguise

Are you a Mongol in disguise.

Football ditty tune.

Can't say I know it. Knowing football I hope that doesn't mean what I think it does "
No it's a harmless one.

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By *irthandgirthMan
over a year ago

Camberley occasionally doncaster


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

Wasn't his grave ridden over by a thousand horsemen for a week?

Always loved the Mongol history. At one point they achieved the largest pincer maneouvre in history, which is still taught in military academies,one half on an army sweeping round 1600 miles to flank an enemy that was already being engaged. The logistics of this operation are staggering. Their mastery of co-ordination also makes them stand out. Their messenger posts spanned vast swathes of the continent to relay messages from commander to commander..

Yes.. I tried to explain earlier up the thread that the Mongols would have destroyed any force who came before them.. but it wasn't widely accepted. "

Just found the reference. It was a campaign by Subedai against Bela IV of Hungary. Leaving 30k warriors in Russia, they marched 20k troops through Poland and Lithuania, while the bulk crossed the Carpathians to draw out Bela's force. The 20k who crushed Poland and Lithuania had to sweep down and take the Hungarian army on a 2nd front. This was coordinated down to the day. Incredible by today's standards, never mind from 800 years ago.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

Wasn't his grave ridden over by a thousand horsemen for a week?

Always loved the Mongol history. At one point they achieved the largest pincer maneouvre in history, which is still taught in military academies,one half on an army sweeping round 1600 miles to flank an enemy that was already being engaged. The logistics of this operation are staggering. Their mastery of co-ordination also makes them stand out. Their messenger posts spanned vast swathes of the continent to relay messages from commander to commander..

Yes.. I tried to explain earlier up the thread that the Mongols would have destroyed any force who came before them.. but it wasn't widely accepted.

Just found the reference. It was a campaign by Subedai against Bela IV of Hungary. Leaving 30k warriors in Russia, they marched 20k troops through Poland and Lithuania, while the bulk crossed the Carpathians to draw out Bela's force. The 20k who crushed Poland and Lithuania had to sweep down and take the Hungarian army on a 2nd front. This was coordinated down to the day. Incredible by today's standards, never mind from 800 years ago."

That was a 20,000 man scouting party to see what Europe held in store.

An Islamic ruler told them the long way through the mountains and betrayed them by sending scouts into Georgia. The Georgian Army was big and full of crusading knights ready and prepped for war with Islam. The Mongols eventuafound their own way through only to be greeted by glistening metal with no room to gallop. So they feigned retreat and slew their enemy in the mountains instead (poo poo to all you haters who think Mongols only fight well with one tactic).

That 20,000 strong force did exactly as you said. Tsubodai is someone is place second in Greatest Generals of all time, just behind the Great Khan himself. Tsubodai went on to serve Ogedai loyally after his fathers death. Ogedai ordered Tsubodai to go back to Russia and Poland, but his Ogedais untimely death led to a leadership challenge and Mongol Civil War. Such are their succession laws.

Splitting the once mighty Empire into three, still very dominant and imposing. No longer a threat to Europe. Though had Ogedai lived longer, our Doom was inevitable. At the time Europe was technologically behind both China and the Islamic World.

I think we partially owe our current dominance to the premature death of Ogedai Khan.

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By *andybeachWoman
over a year ago

In the middle


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

I watched a very interesting programme about this very thing a week or so ago, it’s amazing how they can spot things just by looking at land features, they think they have found the spot but are unable to dig as it is sacred ground, well worth a watch

post a link if you find it please

"

This is what I watched it last for about and hour and on YouTube there is more evidence they have actually found the tomb under a river bed

https://youtu.be/ad4cgluZAcc

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

I watched a very interesting programme about this very thing a week or so ago, it’s amazing how they can spot things just by looking at land features, they think they have found the spot but are unable to dig as it is sacred ground, well worth a watch

post a link if you find it please

This is what I watched it last for about and hour and on YouTube there is more evidence they have actually found the tomb under a river bed

https://youtu.be/ad4cgluZAcc "

I'm definitely going to watch that

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By *andybeachWoman
over a year ago

In the middle


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

I watched a very interesting programme about this very thing a week or so ago, it’s amazing how they can spot things just by looking at land features, they think they have found the spot but are unable to dig as it is sacred ground, well worth a watch

post a link if you find it please

This is what I watched it last for about and hour and on YouTube there is more evidence they have actually found the tomb under a river bed

https://youtu.be/ad4cgluZAcc

I'm definitely going to watch that "

I hope you find what you seek young Temüjin

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

I watched a very interesting programme about this very thing a week or so ago, it’s amazing how they can spot things just by looking at land features, they think they have found the spot but are unable to dig as it is sacred ground, well worth a watch

post a link if you find it please

This is what I watched it last for about and hour and on YouTube there is more evidence they have actually found the tomb under a river bed

https://youtu.be/ad4cgluZAcc

I'm definitely going to watch that

I hope you find what you seek young Temüjin "

Watched it. Though your link had no sound I could hear.

Reply privatelyReply in forumReply +quote
 

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

I watched a very interesting programme about this very thing a week or so ago, it’s amazing how they can spot things just by looking at land features, they think they have found the spot but are unable to dig as it is sacred ground, well worth a watch

post a link if you find it please

This is what I watched it last for about and hour and on YouTube there is more evidence they have actually found the tomb under a river bed

https://youtu.be/ad4cgluZAcc

I'm definitely going to watch that

I hope you find what you seek young Temüjin

Watched it. Though your link had no sound I could hear.

"
.

"tell us a secret " thread

.. somewhere for you to invade. nite nite. ..

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I'm a history geek so love anything like that. Was obsessed with the Mongols and anything I could learn about them for a few years.

There isn't a lot is there? I'm half Hoping they'll find his grave in my life time, so we can learn more. The other half wants it to remain a mystery like he requested.

I watched a very interesting programme about this very thing a week or so ago, it’s amazing how they can spot things just by looking at land features, they think they have found the spot but are unable to dig as it is sacred ground, well worth a watch

post a link if you find it please

This is what I watched it last for about and hour and on YouTube there is more evidence they have actually found the tomb under a river bed

https://youtu.be/ad4cgluZAcc

I'm definitely going to watch that

I hope you find what you seek young Temüjin

Watched it. Though your link had no sound I could hear.

.

"tell us a secret " thread

.. somewhere for you to invade. nite nite. .. "

Atlantis is mine

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

its not a secret you nut,,theres heaps written bout it,,ffs really daft thread

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"its not a secret you nut,,theres heaps written bout it,,ffs really daft thread "

Ooooh you deserve a slap for that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"its not a secret you nut,,theres heaps written bout it,,ffs really daft thread

Ooooh you deserve a slap for that."
I wouldn't that might be her kink and enjoy it haha

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"its not a secret you nut,,theres heaps written bout it,,ffs really daft thread

Ooooh you deserve a slap for that."

im annoying eh

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"its not a secret you nut,,theres heaps written bout it,,ffs really daft thread

Ooooh you deserve a slap for that. I wouldn't that might be her kink and enjoy it haha"

no its not

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"its not a secret you nut,,theres heaps written bout it,,ffs really daft thread

Ooooh you deserve a slap for that.

im annoying eh "

Not at all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Then slap away haha

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"its not a secret you nut,,theres heaps written bout it,,ffs really daft thread

Ooooh you deserve a slap for that.

im annoying eh

Not at all."

I am

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"its not a secret you nut,,theres heaps written bout it,,ffs really daft thread

Ooooh you deserve a slap for that.

im annoying eh

Not at all.

I am "

Not yet..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

its not a secret

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"its not a secret "

*Dunks Your head under the water*

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"its not a secret

*Dunks Your head under the water*

"

pervert

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"its not a secret

*Dunks Your head under the water*

pervert "

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