FabSwingers.com forum: Scottish Independence II

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

June Terry wrote on Scott.Inde.I:

English

For it, IF the majority of those within wherever the border is drawn get a fair vote, and a further option to relocate if they vote no and it happens anyway. Shall we say 5 years of assisted house swaps to resettle the populations... lets face it there are many England Born and Bred who claim to be Scots, and many Scots born and bred who claim to be British.

To allow anyone to vote who does not currently live in the area to be declared independant would be just as wrong as refusing a vote to any that do live there.

Good post. The issue of who should be able to vote hasn't really been discussed. (probably cos of all the fookin racism hijacks, so leave it out eh?)

To my way of thinking, this vote, should it happen, doesn't just affect those living north of the border, and by that I mean just that - those living there, not those who are Scottish, and as it would have far reaching ramifications for successive generations of both Scots and British (assuming Scotland votes for independence), I believe that anyone living in Scotland - Scottish or otherwise, as their progeny will be Scottish or dual-nationality, should be entitled to vote above whatever age criteria is set. Also, those Scots not living in Scotland should also have a vote as they still define themselves as Scots regardless of where they live. I don't feel that the rest of the UK should have a say in whether Scotland leaves the UK or not as that could deny the right for Scottish people to self determine their own country if the vote goes against them but the majority of Scots or those living there vote Yes.

That's my take on it anyway.

Please leave the racist rubbish under the stone to where it rightly belongs. Ta.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Glad you resurrected this post. I was enjoying it until the stupid comments at the end. Who should vote? It's a matter for the people of Scotland only; that is, those living in Scotland only. It's all about self-determination of a country. There are no other mongrel alliances like UK or GB in the world ie, 3 separate, self determiming countries, coming under the banner of the largest but in the Commonwealth, how many times have we here voted for another country's right to leave? Lots of the nitty gritty arguments will be within Scotland and not properly reported elsewhere so how can a non-resident Scot make a reasoned decision?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The main problem towards Scottish independence is ignorance. Ignorance in Scotland and England. The vast majority of our friends don't know any of the powers/ changes that the SNP want, they just decide that they want it so we wouldn't be under England's thumb. Many English think it's up to them to get rid of Scotland and that they pay for all things Scottish.

There is lots of bad feeling in Scotland which David Cameron is making worse, but is Independance the solution? I guess we will know more over the coming weeks and months xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't really understand how in this day and age, Mr C could wade in, in the way he did and not realise he was aiding the Nationalist cause so much! He's our top politician for goodness sake. Even if he lacks savvy, which I tust he doesn't, where were his aides and advisors? I gather he went off half-cocked and caused a lot of concern behind the scenes by his mishandling of the timing of the referendum. I read today it is now timed to be late 2014 after all

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I think the timing of the referendum is more to do with the inter-personal dynamics between Cameron and Salmond. Two years to prepare for a major restructuring of the UK & Scotland is not a long time to ensure that all the niddly bits as well as the major issues are addressed fully so that people know exactly what they are voting for. Cameron is naive to believe it can be discussed, amended and pushed through Parliament in 12-18months, and on that I concede that Salmond's August 2014 deadline is more realistic.

I suspect that Cameron doesn't want to give the SNP enough time to sway those Scots who are wavering about remaining in the UK, nor does he want to give Holyrood enough time to amend their statutes to allow 16-17y/o's a vote in Scotland's future, bearing in mind that the criteria for a referendum in Aug 2014 will have to be set long before that date, which lessens the amount of time the Scottish Parliament can change it's laws giving 16y/o's a vote.

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"Glad you resurrected this post. I was enjoying it until the stupid comments at the end. Who should vote? It's a matter for the people of Scotland only; that is, those living in Scotland only. It's all about self-determination of a country. There are no other mongrel alliances like UK or GB in the world ie, 3 separate, self determiming countries, coming under the banner of the largest but in the Commonwealth, how many times have we here voted for another country's right to leave? Lots of the nitty gritty arguments will be within Scotland and not properly reported elsewhere so how can a non-resident Scot make a reasoned decision? "

We let them vote at general elections - the non-resident voting issue is clearly going to be a difficult one.

Personally I can't wait to see how the SNP intend to deal with the issues around transport - will Scotrail be allowed to run trains to London? Will the Uk rump govt pay to subsidize cross border trains?

The lovely idea of the country lanes I travel having border posts, or more likely hordes of cross border shoppers exploiting tax differences, is beyond comedy. Will Berwick Rangers fans (both of them) have to go through passport checks for every away game?

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

From what i have read, the proposed referendum would be for all people currently living in Scotland regardless of ethnicity (if you can actually genetically differentiate 'tween Lowland Scots and English) but not offered to those English dwellers who claim Scots heritage.

Basically, if you pay your taxes in Scotland you get to vote, if not tough.

A Scots vote for independence is constitutionally a Scottish concern, nothing to do with the English - assuming Call Me Dave does change the rules to allow a referendum to be legally binding, currently referenda (sp?) are not legally binding.

However, If Devo Max is proposed (something to which i am opposed) then that will alter the Constitution of the UK and ALL British people should be given a say as to whether it should be accepted.

I'm in no way a supporter of the Current UK Prime Minister but i agree with him on one point - the Scots should be offered a straight question, are you in or out.

My View? Scotland out of the Union.

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"From what i have read, the proposed referendum would be for all people currently living in Scotland regardless of ethnicity (if you can actually genetically differentiate 'tween Lowland Scots and English) but not offered to those English dwellers who claim Scots heritage.

Basically, if you pay your taxes in Scotland you get to vote, if not tough.

However, If Devo Max is proposed (something to which i am opposed) then that will alter the Constitution of the UK and ALL British people should be given a say as to whether it should be accepted.

I'm in no way a supporter of the Current UK Prime Minister but i agree with him on one point - the Scots should be offered a straight question, are you in or out.

My View? Scotland out of the Union."

Scotland Act S.30 allows for extensions to the powers of the Scottish Parliament by legislative order - given that there isn't a British constitution anyway, S.30 would seem to be all the powers needed to enact most of Devo Max.

On a more general point, since what passes for a British constitution is actually just a mess of pretence and precedent the precedent is clearly established that only the people who live within the area effected get to vote in a devolution referendum...

Your proposal that only people who payb taxes should vote is a bit nineteenth century, by the way. I know it's not what you mean but....

Also, the Calman proposals explicitly included some forms of overseas voting...

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

Basically, if you pay your taxes in Scotland you get to vote, if not tough.

However, If Devo Max is proposed (something to which i am opposed) then that will alter the Constitution of the UK and ALL British people should be given a say as to whether it should be accepted.

I'm in no way a supporter of the Current UK Prime Minister but i agree with him on one point - the Scots should be offered a straight question, are you in or out.

My View? Scotland out of the Union.

Your proposal that only people who payb taxes should vote is a bit nineteenth century, by the way. I know it's not what you mean but....

Also, the Calman proposals explicitly included some forms of overseas voting..."

OK then, only people currently residing in Scotland get to vote, hows that?

That i believe is the position of the SNP at the moment - i can't see how they can propose non-residents have a vote, how could you organise that?

You'd have every braveheart fantasist queueing up with increasingly spurious claims to 'Scottishness'.

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

Basically, if you pay your taxes in Scotland you get to vote, if not tough.

However, If Devo Max is proposed (something to which i am opposed) then that will alter the Constitution of the UK and ALL British people should be given a say as to whether it should be accepted.

I'm in no way a supporter of the Current UK Prime Minister but i agree with him on one point - the Scots should be offered a straight question, are you in or out.

My View? Scotland out of the Union.

Your proposal that only people who payb taxes should vote is a bit nineteenth century, by the way. I know it's not what you mean but....

Also, the Calman proposals explicitly included some forms of overseas voting...

OK then, only people currently residing in Scotland get to vote, hows that?

That i believe is the position of the SNP at the moment - i can't see how they can propose non-residents have a vote, how could you organise that?

You'd have every braveheart fantasist queueing up with increasingly spurious claims to 'Scottishness'."

EROs already have lists of overseas voters who are entitled to vote in elections. Arrangements for servicemen and women and diplomats to vote are long established, even though the individuals in question are often resident abroad for long periods.

if I were the SNP I'd be getting lots of expats to register to vote at mam and dad's house - perfecly legal and simple to arrange.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

A Scotsman living abroad is still a Scotsman is he not, and as such as he has the freedom to return to Scotland as and when he wishes. If Scotland does vote for independence then it will have it's own passport and those Scots currently riding on a British passport would want the new Scottish document, one would presume. So, if a Scot living abroad is not deemed to be 'Scottish enough' to vote for independence, how will he then obtain a Scottish passport?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A Scotsman living abroad is still a Scotsman is he not, and as such as he has the freedom to return to Scotland as and when he wishes. If Scotland does vote for independence then it will have it's own passport and those Scots currently riding on a British passport would want the new Scottish document, one would presume. So, if a Scot living abroad is not deemed to be 'Scottish enough' to vote for independence, how will he then obtain a Scottish passport?"

By that argument you would have to include a lot of Americans claim Scotish ancestry! in fact I do believe there are some Chinese who have a Scotish claim... Something about a clan who visited and stayed there before Marco Polo found a route,

This was the reason for the my idea of a 5 year house swap option, those that vote no and really do not wish to give up the UK passport can move south, whilst those that currently live outside Scotland but want to be part of an independant country and carry a Scots passport can move north.

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By *acreadCouple
over a year ago

central scotland

I believe anyone not residing in the UK should have a vote in any election after all in the main they dont contribute and the vast majority of migrants will never return (if they have any sense).

Once back and resisent in the UK of course they will have a vote but why give anyone a vote matters that are never going to affect them they chose to leave the country and that should be the end of having any say in how its run.

Still think the UK should stay united.

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By *acreadCouple
over a year ago

central scotland

Above should have read should not have a vote.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I understand what you're saying about spurious claims to be Scottish but this is what I meant when I said Cameron was naive if he thought he could address all the issues in 12-18mos. I know lots of Scottish people who have lived in England for decades yet they would never dream of considering themselves anything but Scottish and I'm absolutely certain they'd feel mightily aggrieved if they were denied the opportunity to vote in something as important as Scotland's membership of the Union, or it's independence.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Anyone born in Scotland who are over the age of 18 and are currently resident in the United Kingdom should have a vote....

I believe I am right in saying that between 750,000 and 800,000 people born in Scotland are currently residing in England and Wales, of course they need to be given a vote.

I do have to wonder what the implications could be upon independence if the EU insists that the Scots should have to re apply for membership of the EU....because currently new full membership of the EU is tied in with joing the Euro (I believe).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Tbh, if they chose to live in England, how can they vote for something in another country? How are they to access the information to make an informed choice anyway?

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Because they currently choose to live in England (and Wales) because they are British and therefore have the right to move around these islands freely and live where they choose.

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By *acreadCouple
over a year ago

central scotland

From what I gather due to debating in several scenarios it isnt going to happen and will just be a case of another few million wasted setting the vote up.

And the reason the SNP have had such a high vote here is nothing to do with wanting independence its more to do with voters remembering what the Tories done to Scotland and the way Labour was going it left very little choice.

When it came out last week about the Tories thinking along the lines of destroying Liverpool by neglect I think they actualy had an agenda to go further than that with Scotland and achieved it.

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By *acreadCouple
over a year ago

central scotland

Sorry getting away from the subject again.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Do you really believe the Tories neglected Scotland anymore than they neglected many other parts of England Wales?

Truly?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I do have to wonder what the implications could be upon independence if the EU insists that the Scots should have to re apply for membership of the EU....because currently new full membership of the EU is tied in with joing the Euro (I believe)."

Scotland may well decide that independence means independence from the EU also until such time that they've stood on their own two feet for some time and can decide for themselves if and when they want to join the EU rather than be pushed into it as some sort of caveat for independence from the UK.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Then as an independent nation, outside of the EU and it's freedom of movement and labour, that must surely mean that Scots living in England and Wales would need to apply for a visa to work and reside here?

And vice versa of course....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nope,, Scotland just luvved being the guinea pigs for the poll tax idea though, yip, appreciated that one.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

And vice versa of course...."

But that won't happen will it, due to the special status that will exist between the two countries. I don't see Scottish borders being closed to English traffic, nor do I foresee Scots being denied access to England in much the same way they enjoy now. Freedom of movement will remain the same but how a Scot claims unemployment benefit, for example, in England could well be different though.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Nope,, Scotland just luvved being the guinea pigs for the poll tax idea though, yip, appreciated that one.

That had more to do with Scotland being a Labour stronghold against a Tory govt than anything else. Labour play the same tactics when ordered to make cuts in Labour-held constituencies - they cut front line services to show how aggressive the Tories are being when they could make cuts in other areas that are not so vital. It's called politics, and the people who suffer are those in the direct line of fire.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Re the EU question. I genuinely don't know this- what happened when Slovakia the Ch Rebublic parted? Were they in the EU as one, beforehand? Scotland has a similar population to Slovakia

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"but how a Scot claims unemployment benefit, for example, in England could well be different though."

Another state process that may or may not apply in any independant Scotland, the welfare system would need to be recrafted a good chance to look around and see what works where.

There will always be a generation of issues and overlaps, families will be divided if there are two passports in the future some will be on the other side of the border... Only way this works is if you draw a line and work on which side you are on on the day of independance.

Give it a couple of hundred years and it won't matter much

cos we will all be a province of the great Lichtenstein empire anyway

Disclaimer: other empires may exist and no preference is implied blah blah...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So how come there are no border controls between NI and Eire? No barrier between most European countries and their neighbours, not even passport control? Why suddenly such a deal-breaker between Scotland and England?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Re the EU question. I genuinely don't know this- what happened when Slovakia the Ch Rebublic parted? Were they in the EU as one, beforehand? Scotland has a similar population to Slovakia "

No they were outside of the EU at the time. It is a long way from an amicable split, I know people there who were close friends before the split who threatened violence if the other turned up at a party in Italy

Weirdly there are less problems between Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian people than there are between Czech Republic and Slovakia

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So how come there are no border controls between NI and Eire? No barrier between most European countries and their neighbours, not even passport control? Why suddenly such a deal-breaker between Scotland and England?"

Thats down to the Schengen Agreement, which came on the news last year when France wanted to pull out of it as far as Italy is concerned. I expect something similar would be agreed even if the EU is not involved.

However my mother in law came to England from Ireland in 1951 without a passport, lived here all her life paid taxes etc. but can't get a UK passport

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thanks for ur answer. I googled it- The Velvet Divorce was Jan 1993 and they both joined the E

U in 2004.

If I've remembered it right lol

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Because both Eire and NI (The United Kingdom/Greast Britain) are members of the EU.....the question is what if the Scots gain independence then turn their back on joining the EU?

Freedom of movement then?....and as Wishy says, what about welfare benefits and health care?

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By *obbytupperMan
over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

You watch things change once I claim my rightful inheritance and lands.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"You watch things change once I claim my rightful inheritance and lands.

Bobby the Bruce?

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

However my mother in law came to England from Ireland in 1951 without a passport, lived here all her life paid taxes etc. but can't get a UK passport "

As regards the Irish passport issue, it's because the split was not a simple one in 1922 - hence the differing constitutional settlements in the 20s and 30s in Ireland.

If Scotland wants independence, it will have to settle all these issues. The tri-partite noegtiations, between London and Edinburgh, and Edinburgh and Strasbourg, would be fascinating....

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"I don't really understand how in this day and age, Mr C could wade in, in the way he did and not realise he was aiding the Nationalist cause so much! He's our top politician for goodness sake. Even if he lacks savvy, which I tust he doesn't, where were his aides and advisors? I gather he went off half-cocked and caused a lot of concern behind the scenes by his mishandling of the timing of the referendum. I read today it is now timed to be late 2014 after all "

Oh i think i understand, the blokes a muppet end of..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Oh i think i understand, the blokes a muppet end of.."

I wish, personally I think he is a devious git who is very good at misdirecton... if he looks to be shooting himself in the foot take a good look around you can bet your life something nasty is coming and he doens't want you to see it yet!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It's not a deal-breaker, it's an issue that has to be addressed.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

must say, a very good thread.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

If - a BIG if - Scotland elect to separate from the UK, we have to be absolutely practical here and understand that Scotland simply cannot be cut adrift from the UK and told to 'sink or swim'. There will have to be a transitional period between full UK membership with all the benefits that entails and full independence. It could take as long as five years to sort out how Scotland develops it's own welfare system independent of the UK but during those five years Westminster MUST supply the funds needed for Scotland to make that transition, whilst at the same time the UK govt must also provide a mechanism for Scotland to develop it's own manufacturing base, services sector and natural resources that it can use to develop it's own economy. Scotland will fail as an independent nation if it doesn't have those safeguards in place.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

...which, come to think of it, is pretty much what DevoMax would be, so on that basis DevoMax can be an option on the referendum but only come into play if the majority of Scots vote for full independence. Simples.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And then there is the issue of the standing army in Devomax. Mr S has been against most/all military involvement from Bosnia onwards. What if he says no and Westminster says yes? Do the Scottish regiments stay at home? The NHS? How will that work? Trident? Sure there are more

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"If - a BIG if - Scotland elect to separate from the UK, we have to be absolutely practical here and understand that Scotland simply cannot be cut adrift from the UK and told to 'sink or swim'. There will have to be a transitional period between full UK membership with all the benefits that entails and full independence. It could take as long as five years to sort out how Scotland develops it's own welfare system independent of the UK but during those five years Westminster MUST supply the funds needed for Scotland to make that transition, whilst at the same time the UK govt must also provide a mechanism for Scotland to develop it's own manufacturing base, services sector and natural resources that it can use to develop it's own economy. Scotland will fail as an independent nation if it doesn't have those safeguards in place."

So a bit like having your 20 year old son leave home, then not being able to afford living in his own pad after all....and coming back home?

Or.....like placing a bet in Ladbrokes, your horse comes fifth but you still get your stake back?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"And then there is the issue of the standing army in Devomax. Mr S has been against most/all military involvement from Bosnia onwards. What if he says no and Westminster says yes? Do the Scottish regiments stay at home? The NHS? How will that work? Trident? Sure there are more"

This is exactly why there can't be a referendum in Cameron's timeframe.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

So a bit like having your 20 year old son leave home, then not being able to afford living in his own pad after all....and coming back home?

Or.....like placing a bet in Ladbrokes, your horse comes fifth but you still get your stake back?"

No, not at all like it. You'd want your 20y/o son to turn to you if things don't pan out for him. It's not quite the same when an entire country decides to break away. You know that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Something that niggles me is the SNP's desire to break up the UK to then go straight into a relationship of dependancy with the EU.

However, may be due to then being net beneficaries of the budget.

I hope our Scottish neighbours vote to stay with us. Stronger together.

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By *illiam19Couple
over a year ago

glasgow

FOR IT we need to learn to stand on our own 2 feet

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My contribution to the original thread had a big "but", some of your questions are exactly what I was alluding to.

A huge range/list of questions, most of which Alex Salmond has so far just glossed over!!

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By *obbytupperMan
over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

"You watch things change once I claim my rightful inheritance and lands.

Bobby the Bruce?

King Robert and its on my passport!!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

All for it myself. Lower NHS costs, less benefits paid out and thats just a start.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My contribution to the original thread had a big "but", some of your questions are exactly what I was alluding to.

A huge range/list of questions, most of which Alex Salmond has so far just glossed over!!"
. Well, I look forward to the forthcoming informed debate

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple
over a year ago

hexham

"Re the EU question. I genuinely don't know this- what happened when Slovakia the Ch Rebublic parted? Were they in the EU as one, beforehand? Scotland has a similar population to Slovakia "

scotland will have to reapply for membership, strasbourg have confirmed this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My contribution to the original thread had a big "but", some of your questions are exactly what I was alluding to.

A huge range/list of questions, most of which Alex Salmond has so far just glossed over!!. Well, I look forward to the forthcoming informed debate

. "

Yes, most definitely!

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple
over a year ago

hexham

My contribution to the original thread had a big "but", some of your questions are exactly what I was alluding to.

A huge range/list of questions, most of which Alex Salmond has so far just glossed over!!"

cut trident,the scottish submarine bases and the armed forces and thousands of scots are out of work...

As i said on the original thread there are far too many unanswered questions

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The SNP have clearly laid out their policies for Trident and air bases etc so it isn't unanswered; it's just that you don't know. There are minutiae to be decided. Like I said, bring on the INFORMED debate

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple
over a year ago

hexham

"The SNP have clearly laid out their policies for Trident and air bases etc so it isn't unanswered; it's just that you don't know. There are minutiae to be decided. Like I said, bring on the INFORMED debate"

so, they no longer belong to the British army, what is the snps policy to deal with the unemployed ex service men

i wait to be informed

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I never know nuffin!!

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By *ixson-BallsMan
over a year ago

Blackpool

if scotland gets independence....i bet the price of whisky will go up for us english

....and what about scotch eggs...will they become a luxury item?? LOL....

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By *illow PimpMan
over a year ago

Midlothian

March and rally tomorrow in Edinburgh assemble 11am meadows for those interested

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

A mock referendum among students on Scottish independence has resulted in a large majority in favour of staying within the UK.

Students at the University of Glasgow were balloted using the same question as will be used in the referendum itself, due next year.

When asked "should Scotland be an independent country?", 62% (1614) voted no, while 38% (967) said yes.

Only 2589 (13%) of the university's 20,000 students took part in the poll.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Something that niggles me is the SNP's desire to break up the UK to then go straight into a relationship of dependancy with the EU. "

Although as said previously, I approve of it in principle but so far there are too many unanswered questions, the above is one of the reasons I'll be voting against.

What is the point of getting independence from London, to then be ruled by a bunch of unelected eejits in Brussels??

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By *aucy3Couple
over a year ago

glasgow

there are two reasons the independence vote will be no.

both parochial,not political.

to many scottish people,make all of their decisions,on every issue,based on two narrow minded outlooks,at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

to many,are incapable of having an independent thought,never mind an independent country.

i love being scottish,but our parochial ways,sadden me.

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