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"Stephen Lawrence, rest in peace. " plus 1... sleep in peace now x | |||
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"too long a wait,but hope it helps his mum and family "+1 | |||
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"Stephen Lawrence, rest in peace. " Bout time!!! | |||
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"My thoughts are with his family today ..." +1. | |||
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"we should all be proud of this "Yes we should, but we should also hope that as a society we have and are still moving on. I was extremely saddened by the murder in Salford last month which the Police are treating as a hate crime. | |||
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"his family : a shining example of DIGNITY through adversity x" +1 | |||
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"The perverse thing about this case is that if they'd been found guilty 18 years ago they'd have served 10-15 years and probably been out on parole by now. Those two at least will emerge old men by the time they are eligible for release, I hope they've enjoyed the 18 years they'd had as that's all they're going to have to remember for the rest of their lives. And I agree with Jane above - everyone who's helped to bury the truth in this case should now be hunted down and prosecuted as accessories to murder. R.I.P. Stephen Lawrence, finally." I'd echo this. Today's verdict is a good thing, but we need to remember the bigger picture and in many ways there is little to celebrate. | |||
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"The perverse thing about this case is that if they'd been found guilty 18 years ago they'd have served 10-15 years and probably been out on parole by now. Those two at least will emerge old men by the time they are eligible for release, I hope they've enjoyed the 18 years they'd had as that's all they're going to have to remember for the rest of their lives. And I agree with Jane above - everyone who's helped to bury the truth in this case should now be hunted down and prosecuted as accessories to murder. R.I.P. Stephen Lawrence, finally." yep, until all who were involved in his murder,and subsequent cover up,are brought to justice. justice has not been done. they should not be last to be prosecuted,just be first two. rip. | |||
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"in times these two may turn out to be two white winston silcotss "What makes you think that? Is there suggestion that the police fabricated evidence to secure this conviction? | |||
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"in times these two may turn out to be two white winston silcotss "Silcott was fitted up for Keith Blakelock, he has a 'record' for other stuff etc.. not sure this is the same issue tbh.. | |||
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"in times these two may turn out to be two white winston silcotss "Silcott wasn't even at the scene of the Blakelock murder on the night.....so I doubt it | |||
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one copper looked after the lawrences
then next min went gathering evidence
they had to get someone sooner or later didnt matter who to some | |||
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"silcots got in cos along with birmingham 6 guildford four they all were fitted up after 19 yrs this is safe
one copper looked after the lawrences
then next min went gathering evidence
they had to get someone sooner or later didnt matter who to some"They were boasting about how they had murdered Lawrence so loud and proud in the days after that the police were tipped off by countless people.... It was common knowledge in the local area. | |||
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"silcots got in cos along with birmingham 6 guildford four they all were fitted up after 19 yrs this is safe
one copper looked after the lawrences
then next min went gathering evidence
they had to get someone sooner or later didnt matter who to some
They were boasting about how they had murdered Lawrence so loud and proud in the days after that the police were tipped off by countless people....
It was common knowledge in the local area."who says did you hear them | |||
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"Two men are convicted of the racist murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence, 18 years after the attack in south-east London." Why has Stephen Lawrence almost ALWAYS been referred to as BLACK teenager Stephen Lawrence? Whenever Ben Kinsella is mentioned it never says 'WHITE teenager Ben Kinsella', so why is there this inconsistency in reporting when it should read simply 'teenager ben/stephen murdered by racist thugs'. | |||
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"silcots got in cos along with birmingham 6 guildford four they all were fitted up after 19 yrs this is safe
one copper looked after the lawrences
then next min went gathering evidence
they had to get someone sooner or later didnt matter who to some
They were boasting about how they had murdered Lawrence so loud and proud in the days after that the police were tipped off by countless people....
It was common knowledge in the local area.who says did you hear them "I struggle to understand why you would be posting these thoughts/opinions? You logic is flawed, and your argument is pathetically weak. I could take you to task but I suspect most people can see you and your posts for what they are. | |||
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"silcots got in cos along with birmingham 6 guildford four they all were fitted up after 19 yrs this is safe
one copper looked after the lawrences
then next min went gathering evidence
they had to get someone sooner or later didnt matter who to some
They were boasting about how they had murdered Lawrence so loud and proud in the days after that the police were tipped off by countless people....
It was common knowledge in the local area.who says did you hear them
I struggle to understand why you would be posting these thoughts/opinions? You logic is flawed, and your argument is pathetically weak. I could take you to task but I suspect most people can see you and your posts for what they are."my _iew cant put too much in a forum post but cos its not the same as yours i must be racist  | |||
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" It was common knowledge in the local area.who says did you hear them "Actually..... i was going to wait till the end of panorama till I answered this thread... but you are actually beginning to wind me up... as someone who use to hang out in the area as i was dating a girl from there at the time (and someone who actually knew the family and knew stephen as he was in the same year as me at school... he was actually only 1 month older than me....) I can tell you that people in that part of south east london DID know exactly who did it, because a) they weren't very quiet about it b) they thought they were untouchable because of who they were associated it... I hope that they finally have the evidence to get the other 3..... doreen lawrence is one of the strongest women i have ever had the pleasure of knowing, her convictions are so strong and I am glad the whole family finally got what was being strieved for... I got a text from a friend who still lives down there today... it said 2 words... "finally..... justice!" people in south east london aren't celebrating... they are just relieve that the family has finally seen justice... | |||
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"silcots got in cos along with birmingham 6 guildford four they all were fitted up after 19 yrs this is safe
one copper looked after the lawrences
then next min went gathering evidence
they had to get someone sooner or later didnt matter who to some
They were boasting about how they had murdered Lawrence so loud and proud in the days after that the police were tipped off by countless people....
It was common knowledge in the local area."Everybody knew they had done it and they even told police. Even in Brixton they knew who done it!! | |||
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"silcots got in cos along with birmingham 6 guildford four they all were fitted up after 19 yrs this is safe
one copper looked after the lawrences
then next min went gathering evidence
they had to get someone sooner or later didnt matter who to some
They were boasting about how they had murdered Lawrence so loud and proud in the days after that the police were tipped off by countless people....
It was common knowledge in the local area.
Everybody knew they had done it and they even told police. Even in Brixton they knew who done it!! "What I meant was that the news spread to areas of london. The men that did it are just dicks!!! | |||
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"silcots got in cos along with birmingham 6 guildford four they all were fitted up after 19 yrs this is safe
one copper looked after the lawrences
then next min went gathering evidence
they had to get someone sooner or later didnt matter who to some
They were boasting about how they had murdered Lawrence so loud and proud in the days after that the police were tipped off by countless people....
It was common knowledge in the local area.who says did you hear them
I struggle to understand why you would be posting these thoughts/opinions? You logic is flawed, and your argument is pathetically weak. I could take you to task but I suspect most people can see you and your posts for what they are.my _iew cant put too much in a forum post but cos its not the same as yours i must be racist "No-one has mentioned the word 'Racist' in response to your posts.....only you. | |||
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"people in south east london aren't celebrating... they are just relieve that the family has finally seen justice... " They've seen some justice, there's still a ways to go to get all those involved, including corrupt police officers but I doubt very much they'll be held to account. | |||
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"silcots got in cos along with birmingham 6 guildford four they all were fitted up after 19 yrs this is safe
one copper looked after the lawrences
then next min went gathering evidence
they had to get someone sooner or later didnt matter who to some
They were boasting about how they had murdered Lawrence so loud and proud in the days after that the police were tipped off by countless people....
It was common knowledge in the local area.who says did you hear them
I struggle to understand why you would be posting these thoughts/opinions? You logic is flawed, and your argument is pathetically weak. I could take you to task but I suspect most people can see you and your posts for what they are.my _iew cant put too much in a forum post but cos its not the same as yours i must be racist "I'll be honest your lack of punctuation makes that somewhat hard to understand. But I never said you were racist, though it appears you expected the accusation. So I repeat my question what is your motivation for the crap that you are posting on this thread suggesting that this is not a fair conviction? | |||
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"Why oh why does forum posts like this end up in attacks and disagreements. Can we not remember the title of the post guilty!! Can we not remember that a young man lost his life in a senseless attack. It is not about race or creed but the fact that a young man died at the hands of a bunch of cowards!!!" would absolutely agree, but the bigots want to spout their bile even on such an issue as this thread where an innocent life was taken by cowardly scum simply because he was a different colour... they need to be challenged and shown for what they are.. to be fair most people have been tempered in their responses to the poster suggesting that the 2 convicted today may be in the same situation as Silcott and the Guildford guys.. | |||
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"would absolutely agree, but the bigots want to spout their bile even on such an issue as this thread where an innocent life was taken by cowardly scum simply because he was a different colour... they need to be challenged and shown for what they are.. to be fair most people have been tempered in their responses to the poster suggesting that the 2 convicted today may be in the same situation as Silcott and the Guildford guys.." This. I challenge prejudice, have done all my life and will do till the day I die. And to be honest on a thread like this of all places then it really needs challenging. | |||
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"would absolutely agree, but the bigots want to spout their bile even on such an issue as this thread where an innocent life was taken by cowardly scum simply because he was a different colour... they need to be challenged and shown for what they are.. to be fair most people have been tempered in their responses to the poster suggesting that the 2 convicted today may be in the same situation as Silcott and the Guildford guys.. This. I challenge prejudice, have done all my life and will do till the day I die. And to be honest on a thread like this of all places then it really needs challenging." Yep, i think you'll find we are of the same mind on this... | |||
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"Just heard on the news that they have to be sentenced tomorrow as if they were juveniles!! Thats unbelievable" It is unbelievable but then totaly believable in this country. The law is an Ass. It is incredulous to think that it has taken 18 years and one spec of blood to secure this conviction when two weeks after Stephen was murdered the Met Police watched one of the accused leave his house with a black bin bag full of probably damning evidence. As for the MacPherson enquiry and cleaning up the Met and ridding it of its institutional racism, that is piffle. The police are as bad as they ever were in terms of prejudice. Ask any black youth on the streets of London what their perception of the police is and they will tell you that the police are a bunch of thugs. I do not hate the police by the way, not at all, but for me they are not accountable enough. When that lad got shot in Tottenham, the cause of the riots in the summer, the Police Complaints Authority were all over the crime scene within hours. They don't usualy get involved for months after complaint has been made. Ok the bloke was a known drug dealer but the police would not talk to his family on the same day as he was killed by a police bullit. And look at the kid who got shot for being the 7/7 bomber. He was fucking Brazilian, not exactly a hotbed of Islamic terrorism. The old bill get it wrong too often but never seem to end up in the dock. As soon as a cover up is exposed they quietly resign with their pensions in tact. | |||
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" It was common knowledge in the local area.who says did you hear them
Actually..... i was going to wait till the end of panorama till I answered this thread... but you are actually beginning to wind me up...
as someone who use to hang out in the area as i was dating a girl from there at the time (and someone who actually knew the family and knew stephen as he was in the same year as me at school... he was actually only 1 month older than me....) I can tell you that people in that part of south east london DID know exactly who did it, because
a) they weren't very quiet about it
b) they thought they were untouchable because of who they were associated it...
I hope that they finally have the evidence to get the other 3.....
doreen lawrence is one of the strongest women i have ever had the pleasure of knowing, her convictions are so strong and I am glad the whole family finally got what was being strieved for...
I got a text from a friend who still lives down there today... it said 2 words...
"finally..... justice!"
people in south east london aren't celebrating... they are just relieve that the family has finally seen justice... "what can i say ,it is not a day to celebrate,but one to reflect,and be glad some lessons have been learnt | |||
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"I don't wish to stir up a hornet's nest but there's one thing that has always bugged me to hell about this case, and it's there again on the BBC News website front page today: Two men are convicted of the racist murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence, 18 years after the attack in south-east London. Why has Stephen Lawrence almost ALWAYS been referred to as BLACK teenager Stephen Lawrence? Whenever Ben Kinsella is mentioned it never says 'WHITE teenager Ben Kinsella', so why is there this inconsistency in reporting when it should read simply 'teenager ben/stephen murdered by racist thugs'. "What evidence of a racial motive was offered in the Kinsella case? Or did you just make that bit up? | |||
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"Just heard on the news that they have to be sentenced tomorrow as if they were juveniles!! Thats unbelievable It is unbelievable but then totaly believable in this country. The law is an Ass. It is incredulous to think that it has taken 18 years and one spec of blood to secure this conviction when two weeks after Stephen was murdered the Met Police watched one of the accused leave his house with a black bin bag full of probably damning evidence. As for the MacPherson enquiry and cleaning up the Met and ridding it of its institutional racism, that is piffle. The police are as bad as they ever were in terms of prejudice. Ask any black youth on the streets of London what their perception of the police is and they will tell you that the police are a bunch of thugs. I do not hate the police by the way, not at all, but for me they are not accountable enough. When that lad got shot in Tottenham, the cause of the riots in the summer, the Police Complaints Authority were all over the crime scene within hours. They don't usualy get involved for months after complaint has been made. Ok the bloke was a known drug dealer but the police would not talk to his family on the same day as he was killed by a police bullit. And look at the kid who got shot for being the 7/7 bomber. He was fucking Brazilian, not exactly a hotbed of Islamic terrorism. The old bill get it wrong too often but never seem to end up in the dock. As soon as a cover up is exposed they quietly resign with their pensions in tact." I respect your anger but you're wrong on one thing. Since probably the time of the Waldorf shooting the police have voluntarily started independent investigations as soon as an officer discharges a firearm. Waldorf is an interesting case to bear in mind because like JC de Menezes he was the victim of mistaken identity in a high risk environment; like Harry Stanley, who the police also shot by mistake in what they thought was a high risk environment, Waldorf was white. Not everything comes down to race; sometimes we ask good people to do impossible things with disastrous consequences. The Lawrence case though did come down to race, and it's important not to obscure that by lumping everything else in with it. the Mark Duggan case probably also has less to do with race than it has to do with the difficulty of making split second decisions. | |||
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" "thanks for that enlightening contribution... you have heard different _iewpoints from different people in different parts of south and east london, all telling you the same thing..... and this was your response........ | |||
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"i can add more stuff with regards to these 5.... it was so widely known who did it, because as others said, they weren't shy about telling people about it.... these boys thought they were untouchable and bulletproof because of who they knew and associated with and were in with the local police.... in fact I know that these 5 had to wander round with bodyguards for a few years afterwards for fear of attacks..... i knew gangs in south and east london that were after these boys for years... that fact it look so long is laughable but sad because it was such an open secret...... the one who actually did it is still out there..... I would hope for some deceny and ask one of them to finally spill the beans.... but i wouldn't hold our breath...." If you "know" who comitted the murder you should tell the police, otherwise 2 men have been charged with something they didn't do, but were an accessory to. I really don't think that this is a safe conviction at all, especially as so many on here claim to know the real killer. I can see further millions being spent on appeals. | |||
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"Why oh why does forum posts like this end up in attacks and disagreements. Can we not remember the title of the post guilty!! Can we not remember that a young man lost his life in a senseless attack. It is not about race or creed but the fact that a young man died at the hands of a bunch of cowards!!! would absolutely agree, but the bigots want to spout their bile even on such an issue as this thread where an innocent life was taken by cowardly scum simply because he was a different colour... they need to be challenged and shown for what they are.. .." Nothing wrong with challenging peoples _iews, but there is a way to do it without abuse, and the person you are quoting I am guessing saw the same posts as me before they were removed. | |||
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"I really don't think that this is a safe conviction at all, especially as so many on here claim to know the real killer. I can see further millions being spent on appeals." Scientists found a tiny bloodstain on Dobson's jacket that could only have come from Lawrence. They also found a single hair belonging to the teenager on Norris's jeans. In previous examinations back in the 90s evidence was tested for blood using a chemical solution and if it showed no traces of blood a microscopic examination wasn't ordered. Those practices have changed since then and microscopic examinations are a matter of routine. It is that forensic evidence that secured the convictions yesterday and it's also the only reason the other three were not prosecuted as no evidence linking them to the murder was found. The five of them were known to have hung around with each other almost exclusively and were VT'd waving knives around and talking about 'skinning a fucking n****r'. It is a very safe conviction but as they were juveniles at the time of the murder they'll get juvenile sentences which could mean a minimum of 12 years each. We'll soon find out if they've had a lenient judge or not. | |||
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"i can add more stuff with regards to these 5.... it was so widely known who did it, because as others said, they weren't shy about telling people about it.... these boys thought they were untouchable and bulletproof because of who they knew and associated with and were in with the local police.... in fact I know that these 5 had to wander round with bodyguards for a few years afterwards for fear of attacks..... i knew gangs in south and east london that were after these boys for years... that fact it look so long is laughable but sad because it was such an open secret...... the one who actually did it is still out there..... I would hope for some deceny and ask one of them to finally spill the beans.... but i wouldn't hold our breath.... If you "know" who comitted the murder you should tell the police, otherwise 2 men have been charged with something they didn't do, but were an accessory to. I really don't think that this is a safe conviction at all, especially as so many on here claim to know the real killer. I can see further millions being spent on appeals." If you read, you can see the police do know. As for accessory...its not part of british law... Whosoever shall aid, abet, counsel, or procure the commission of any indictable offence, whether the same be an offence at common law or by virtue of any Act passed or to be passed, shall be liable to be tried, indicted, and punished as a principal offender. ” | |||
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"what worries me is the british justice system, wernt those responsible for the murder and now found guilty on a 3rd trial.. tried twice before and not found guilty. I thought you couldnt be tried twice for same offence. It seems to get a conviction by any means necessarry the powers that be can shift the goal posts as and when it suits them. Obviously cos of the media frenzy surrounding the murder of stephen lawrence which was always reported as a racist crime and the inability of the police to get any conviction previously justice had to be seen to be done my any means possible. I wonder if stephen had been white there would have been such a media furore to catch the people responsible for his murder." The Double Jeopardy law was changed in 2003 after a re_iew of this particular case in 1999, where Sir William MacPherson identified the five of them as prime suspects in the Lawrence case. The Macpherson inquiry recommended in 1999 that the double jeopardy principle deserved "debate and reconsideration", perhaps by the law commission. If the law was changed, Macpherson predicted, fresh trials after acquittal would be exceptional and appropriate safeguards would be essential. But pointing out that Dobson, Knight and Neil Acourt could not be tried again as the law then stood, however strong any new evidence might be, the Macpherson inquiry suggested that "perhaps in modern conditions such absolute protection may sometimes lead to injustice". Full article here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/jan/03/double-jeopardy-change-law-retrial | |||
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"As i thought powers that be can change the law as and when it suits there needs then. With regard to forensic evidence well look at the barry george case who was convicted of the murder of tv presenter suzzane dando who was convicted by forensic evidence only to be later aqquited. Anybody could see clearly at the time this man was incapable of holding a gun let alone firing one at the time ..except of course ...the police." don't we elect the powers........ | |||
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"what worries me is the british justice system, wernt those responsible for the murder and now found guilty on a 3rd trial.. tried twice before and not found guilty. I thought you couldnt be tried twice for same offence. It seems to get a conviction by any means necessarry the powers that be can shift the goal posts as and when it suits them. Obviously cos of the media frenzy surrounding the murder of stephen lawrence which was always reported as a racist crime and the inability of the police to get any conviction previously justice had to be seen to be done my any means possible. I wonder if stephen had been white there would have been such a media furore to catch the people responsible for his murder." sadly it seems to be the case that his skin colour did play such a part in how his murder was dealt with... and that was wrong.. | |||
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"well if we do then how come the powers that be and i take it you mean the political party in power at the time cannot change certain laws such as for example.. immigration quotas end up going to court and losing hmmmmm If it wasnt for the rich and powerful all political parties would cease to be as they wouldnt be able to recieve funding for there political election campaigns. hasnt politics simply been a smoke screen to kid us into believing were actually living in a democracy. Rich will always get richer and the poor will always be poor in the majority. " yup the union membership is chocablock with the rich..... and of course they don't play a part. and a democracy works better if people actually play a part ..... VOTE. and as we know from experience, turnout at elections to make fundamental change is better on the days the SUN shines. couldn't have people who care so much get wet. | |||
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"sadly it seems to be the case that his skin colour did play such a part in how his murder was dealt with... and that was wrong.. ...I couldnt agree more murder is murder regardless of skin colour heres a fact that leaked out only to be hushed up again ...most gun and knife crimes are committed by mainly black young males. A celebratory was mugged at knifepoint in order to aide in the muggers capture he committed the grave offence of of describing his mugger stating on his twitter page that the mugger was black only to be contacted by the police telling him under no uncertain terms to remove the bit about his mugger being black ?? " where did you get you 'fact' from? | |||
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" Absolutely ...only reason ed milliband became leader of the labour party was cos he bent over and took the unions length then turned round and licked there arse ...what everyday joe would ever elect ed milliband as a leader of any political party ..nuff said lol " Nope, wrong on that one fella.. he turned his back on the TUC over the pensions strikes.. not exactly licking someones arse.. | |||
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"sadly it seems to be the case that his skin colour did play such a part in how his murder was dealt with... and that was wrong.. ...I couldnt agree more murder is murder regardless of skin colour heres a fact that leaked out only to be hushed up again ...most gun and knife crimes are committed by mainly black young males. A celebratory was mugged at knifepoint in order to aide in the muggers capture he committed the grave offence of of describing his mugger stating on his twitter page that the mugger was black only to be contacted by the police telling him under no uncertain terms to remove the bit about his mugger being black ?? where did you get you 'fact' from?" errr!,that was common knowledge and happened only a matter of weeks ago!,surprised you missed that as you seem to think you have your finger right on the pulse!. | |||
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"well surrey at the time he did ..cmon hes a politician. They make any manifesto or concession to get to where they want to be only to break there concession or manifesto promises to the unions ..eloctorate once they get to there ivory position of power. " maybe.. back to your 'fact' about your earlier post on gun and knife crime... where did your 'fact' come from please? | |||
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"sadly it seems to be the case that his skin colour did play such a part in how his murder was dealt with... and that was wrong.. ...I couldnt agree more murder is murder regardless of skin colour heres a fact that leaked out only to be hushed up again ...most gun and knife crimes are committed by mainly black young males. A celebratory was mugged at knifepoint in order to aide in the muggers capture he committed the grave offence of of describing his mugger stating on his twitter page that the mugger was black only to be contacted by the police telling him under no uncertain terms to remove the bit about his mugger being black ?? where did you get you 'fact' from? errr!,that was common knowledge and happened only a matter of weeks ago!,surprised you missed that as you seem to think you have your finger right on the pulse!." pray elaborate.. what was 'common knowledge'? The twitter thing or your 'fact'..? not sure why you may think i have a finger on the pulse.. try and not get personal.. | |||
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"15 yrs and 2 months for Dobson" doubt they will swagger with as much smugness in 15 years time. | |||
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"sadly it seems to be the case that his skin colour did play such a part in how his murder was dealt with... and that was wrong.. ...I couldnt agree more murder is murder regardless of skin colour heres a fact that leaked out only to be hushed up again ...most gun and knife crimes are committed by mainly black young males. A celebratory was mugged at knifepoint in order to aide in the muggers capture he committed the grave offence of of describing his mugger stating on his twitter page that the mugger was black only to be contacted by the police telling him under no uncertain terms to remove the bit about his mugger being black ?? where did you get you 'fact' from? errr!,that was common knowledge and happened only a matter of weeks ago!,surprised you missed that as you seem to think you have your finger right on the pulse!. pray elaborate.. what was 'common knowledge'? The twitter thing or your 'fact'..? not sure why you may think i have a finger on the pulse.. try and not get personal.. " was on my pages of pc whenever i opened the pages ,yahoo,bbc news etc, how did you miss it?,you do seem to be on pc a lot during daytime hours?. i looked on a few times at tea breaks etc during the day and saw it quite a few times!. | |||
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"14 yrs and 3 months for Norris " Hope they enjoy the showers in there. And hope they do their London bang up in Brixton Nick so that they can experience some racial hatred from a different perspective. These two are pure evil scum. They need to persue the others now | |||
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"Thats the minimum number of yrs each must serve I applaud the judge " What other limits did the judge set? If they set a minimum term they often state that they won't be automatically released after that time period has elapsed. | |||
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"15 yrs and 2 months for Dobson doubt they will swagger with as much smugness in 15 years time. " I just don't think that either of them will ever be sorry for what they did,I hope life is absolute SHITE in prison for them and that they have that smugness smacked right out of them and that they live in fear every single day they're inside | |||
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" was on my pages of pc whenever i opened the pages ,yahoo,bbc news etc, how did you miss it?,you do seem to be on pc a lot during daytime hours?. i looked on a few times at tea breaks etc during the day and saw it quite a few times!." try not to assume that every one looks at that which you do, and if they did they take the same _iewpoint.. | |||
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"15 yrs and 2 months for Dobson doubt they will swagger with as much smugness in 15 years time. I just don't think that either of them will ever be sorry for what they did,I hope life is absolute SHITE in prison for them and that they have that smugness smacked right out of them and that they live in fear every single day they're inside" I bet you one of them turns.... they thought they were above the law, their smugness is their downfall. | |||
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"Thats the minimum number of yrs each must serve I applaud the judge What other limits did the judge set? If they set a minimum term they often state that they won't be automatically released after that time period has elapsed. " He did say that they would have to show some sort of remorse and rehabilitation before any sort of parole would even be considered I doubt that they'll be able to show that,they have spent the last few yrs bragging and wearing Stephens death like a gruesome badge of honour | |||
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"Just heard on the news that they have to be sentenced tomorrow as if they were juveniles!! Thats unbelievable It is unbelievable but then totaly believable in this country. The law is an Ass. It is incredulous to think that it has taken 18 years and one spec of blood to secure this conviction when two weeks after Stephen was murdered the Met Police watched one of the accused leave his house with a black bin bag full of probably damning evidence. As for the MacPherson enquiry and cleaning up the Met and ridding it of its institutional racism, that is piffle. The police are as bad as they ever were in terms of prejudice. Ask any black youth on the streets of London what their perception of the police is and they will tell you that the police are a bunch of thugs. I do not hate the police by the way, not at all, but for me they are not accountable enough. When that lad got shot in Tottenham, the cause of the riots in the summer, the Police Complaints Authority were all over the crime scene within hours. They don't usualy get involved for months after complaint has been made. Ok the bloke was a known drug dealer but the police would not talk to his family on the same day as he was killed by a police bullit. And look at the kid who got shot for being the 7/7 bomber. He was fucking Brazilian, not exactly a hotbed of Islamic terrorism. The old bill get it wrong too often but never seem to end up in the dock. As soon as a cover up is exposed they quietly resign with their pensions in tact. I respect your anger but you're wrong on one thing. Since probably the time of the Waldorf shooting the police have voluntarily started independent investigations as soon as an officer discharges a firearm. Waldorf is an interesting case to bear in mind because like JC de Menezes he was the victim of mistaken identity in a high risk environment; like Harry Stanley, who the police also shot by mistake in what they thought was a high risk environment, Waldorf was white. Not everything comes down to race; sometimes we ask good people to do impossible things with disastrous consequences. The Lawrence case though did come down to race, and it's important not to obscure that by lumping everything else in with it. the Mark Duggan case probably also has less to do with race than it has to do with the difficulty of making split second decisions." So what is the one thing I am wrong about then? I did not say it always comes down to race, but I also believe that the police are still guilty of institutional racism and predujice. | |||
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"surrey it wasnt me that said you had your finger on the pulse it was.. freddy bee. In terms of fact well as freddybee said regarding the clebratory who got mugged etc it was common knowledge and reported in a newspaper. " yes, sorry about that bluez.. for a minute i thought you were one and the same person, my mistake.. i was asking you about your claim which you stated was a 'fact' about gun and knife crime? | |||
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"Thats the minimum number of yrs each must serve I applaud the judge "  | |||
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"I can see now that ime gonna be _iewed as racist when nothing could be further from the truth. As i said earlier murder is murder a persons skin colour should have no bearing murderers should be tried and sentanced based on solid evidence regardless of there skin colour. the point i simply made was that if stephen had of been white would the powers that be notably the media have given so much attention/ coverage to stephens murder. Would the law of been changed to allow those tried and not found guilty on previous trials retrialed a 3rd time ..and found guilty if stephan was white ...i think not. but thats simply my feeling and my freedom to express my freedom of speech but i can feel the pc brigade on me arse so ile shurrup now.my _iew is its an unsafe conviction delivered to make us believe justice has been seen to be done " I don't _iew you as a racist.... it is exactly that, a public forum. You have your _iew and that is cool. So there is no need to carry the thought that people will. | |||
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"I can see now that ime gonna be _iewed as racist when nothing could be further from the truth. As i said earlier murder is murder a persons skin colour should have no bearing murderers should be tried and sentanced based on solid evidence regardless of there skin colour. the point i simply made was that if stephen had of been white would the powers that be notably the media have given so much attention/ coverage to stephens murder. Would the law of been changed to allow those tried and not found guilty on previous trials retrialed a 3rd time ..and found guilty if stephan was white ...i think not. but thats simply my feeling and my freedom to express my freedom of speech but i can feel the pc brigade on me arse so ile shurrup now.my _iew is its an unsafe conviction delivered to make us believe justice has been seen to be done " But isn't that a good thing that they are retrialed now? Personally I think this case was so obviously a race crime and add the police failings to it and that is why people were so incensed about it. | |||
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"okay no worries surrey ..inner city police have own speacialist departments i think use be called black on black gun crime. Now moving slightly away and living through the gunchester era reasons for these police (speacialist) units being set up was simply the fact that most gangs around manchester 2 in mosside and one in cheetham hill area ..the gang members were predominantley black...with exception to 1 further organised criminal gang in neighbouring city of salford the salford lads. now to coin a phrase to state out more ide have to have some sort of 5th amendment lol " clearly in any area of the country where one colour is predominant, then pro rata any gun and knife crime will be by that particular group.. you identified one group only, which can not be correct.. | |||
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"I can see now that ime gonna be _iewed as racist when nothing could be further from the truth. As i said earlier murder is murder a persons skin colour should have no bearing murderers should be tried and sentanced based on solid evidence regardless of there skin colour. the point i simply made was that if stephen had of been white would the powers that be notably the media have given so much attention/ coverage to stephens murder. Would the law of been changed to allow those tried and not found guilty on previous trials retrialed a 3rd time ..and found guilty if stephan was white ...i think not. but thats simply my feeling and my freedom to express my freedom of speech but i can feel the pc brigade on me arse so ile shurrup now.my _iew is its an unsafe conviction delivered to make us believe justice has been seen to be done But isn't that a good thing that they are retrialed now? Personally I think this case was so obviously a race crime and add the police failings to it and that is why people were so incensed about it." I agree and to be able to have another trial if further evidence comes to light can only be a good thing | |||
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"hi rugby i take your point heres a but ..they have been convicted on a 3rd retrial on forensic evidence. Stephens murder and the exceptionall long time taken for them to today finally secure a conviction on soley forensic evidence has taken so many years. Food for thought why was this forensic evidence only now used years later to secure there conviction years later and never presented on the accused previous retrials ??? in terms of forensic conviction chances are over the years its easily feasable that such forensic evidence could easily have got contaminated or ..dare i say tampered with in favour of the powers that be favour. What i do know is they dont care about about whose guilty whose not what they do care about is simply securing a a conviction by any means possible as i said in ealier post look at the barry george case convicted ...for the murder of suzzanne dando tv presenter on forensic evidence only later to be aquiteed on the forensic evidence used to convict him to have been contaminated/ tampered with. its a smokescreen 99.9 % of all dna is the same its the 1% that determines whether we are human or some other species..forensic evidence is by far not fool proof by any imagination." Jill Dando | |||
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"hi rugby i take your point heres a but ..they have been convicted on a 3rd retrial on forensic evidence. Stephens murder and the exceptionall long time taken for them to today finally secure a conviction on soley forensic evidence has taken so many years. Food for thought why was this forensic evidence only now used years later to secure there conviction years later and never presented on the accused previous retrials ??? in terms of forensic conviction chances are over the years its easily feasable that such forensic evidence could easily have got contaminated or ..dare i say tampered with in favour of the powers that be favour. What i do know is they dont care about about whose guilty whose not what they do care about is simply securing a a conviction by any means possible as i said in ealier post look at the barry george case convicted ...for the murder of suzzanne dando tv presenter on forensic evidence only later to be aquiteed on the forensic evidence used to convict him to have been contaminated/ tampered with. its a smokescreen 99.9 % of all dna is the same its the 1% that determines whether we are human or some other species..forensic evidence is by far not fool proof by any imagination." Forensic examination procedures have changed so evidence that was overlooked earlier has been discovered in the process of re-examination. Forensic evidence is by no means foolproof, but DNA analysis is an extremely safe means of identification. If enough DNA can survive 38,000 years to allow the decoding of the Neanderthal genome, sufficient DNA can survive the 14 years it took for this to finally be laid to rest. Mistakes do get made, but in this case, with the amount of scrutiny subjected to the Stephen Lawrence case both domestically and internationally, to suggest doctored evidence would be submitted in court is really quite farcical. | |||
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"Mistakes do get made, but in this case, with the amount of scrutiny subjected to the Stephen Lawrence case both domestically and internationally, to suggest doctored evidence would be submitted in court is really quite farcical. Well doctored forensic evidence used solely to convict barry george was the reason he was later aquitted of the crime because the forensic evidence used solely to secure his conviction had been tampered contaminated ....FACT " There is a great deal of difference between 'doctored' and 'contaminated'. The evidence in the Barry George case, a particle of gunshot residue, is a totally different type of evidence to DNA evidence, and the appeal was based on accidental contamination of, not deliberate tampering with, the evidence. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that the Met Police somehow managed to produce a blood droplet from a man who has been dead for 14 years, to contaminate clothing that has been in storage? The Barry George case was appealed based on more than just the forensics, and to dismiss all forensic evidence, and all forensic based convictions, on the strength of one case is a somewhat extreme reaction. I think you also ignored my previous point. As terrible as the Jill Dando murder was, it was not subjected to the same level of domestic and international scrutiny as have been the Stephen Lawrence trials. To suggest that, in this particular case, the CPS would submit doctored/falsified forensic evidence is a very questionable argument. | |||
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"Just heard on the news that they have to be sentenced tomorrow as if they were juveniles!! Thats unbelievable It is unbelievable but then totaly believable in this country. The law is an Ass. It is incredulous to think that it has taken 18 years and one spec of blood to secure this conviction when two weeks after Stephen was murdered the Met Police watched one of the accused leave his house with a black bin bag full of probably damning evidence. As for the MacPherson enquiry and cleaning up the Met and ridding it of its institutional racism, that is piffle. The police are as bad as they ever were in terms of prejudice. Ask any black youth on the streets of London what their perception of the police is and they will tell you that the police are a bunch of thugs. I do not hate the police by the way, not at all, but for me they are not accountable enough. When that lad got shot in Tottenham, the cause of the riots in the summer, the Police Complaints Authority were all over the crime scene within hours. They don't usualy get involved for months after complaint has been made. Ok the bloke was a known drug dealer but the police would not talk to his family on the same day as he was killed by a police bullit. And look at the kid who got shot for being the 7/7 bomber. He was fucking Brazilian, not exactly a hotbed of Islamic terrorism. The old bill get it wrong too often but never seem to end up in the dock. As soon as a cover up is exposed they quietly resign with their pensions in tact. I respect your anger but you're wrong on one thing. Since probably the time of the Waldorf shooting the police have voluntarily started independent investigations as soon as an officer discharges a firearm. Waldorf is an interesting case to bear in mind because like JC de Menezes he was the victim of mistaken identity in a high risk environment; like Harry Stanley, who the police also shot by mistake in what they thought was a high risk environment, Waldorf was white. Not everything comes down to race; sometimes we ask good people to do impossible things with disastrous consequences. The Lawrence case though did come down to race, and it's important not to obscure that by lumping everything else in with it. the Mark Duggan case probably also has less to do with race than it has to do with the difficulty of making split second decisions. So what is the one thing I am wrong about then? I did not say it always comes down to race, but I also believe that the police are still guilty of institutional racism and predujice." You claimed there was something unusual about the early involvement of the complaints team in the Duggan shooting. There was nothing unusual about it. | |||
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"I can see now that ime gonna be _iewed as racist when nothing could be further from the truth. As i said earlier murder is murder a persons skin colour should have no bearing murderers should be tried and sentanced based on solid evidence regardless of there skin colour. the point i simply made was that if stephen had of been white would the powers that be notably the media have given so much attention/ coverage to stephens murder. Would the law of been changed to allow those tried and not found guilty on previous trials retrialed a 3rd time ..and found guilty if stephan was white ...i think not. but thats simply my feeling and my freedom to express my freedom of speech but i can feel the pc brigade on me arse so ile shurrup now.my _iew is its an unsafe conviction delivered to make us believe justice has been seen to be done " Catch yourself on man. The fact that some of us know what we're on about and can spell celebrity does not mean we are 'on your arse' or 'the pc brigade.' Debate about what double jeopardy meant, and exceptions to it, can be traced back to at least 1964 - Connelly v DPP for instance. It was always a hot topic, especially as forensic science improved... | |||
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"okay no worries surrey ..inner city police have own speacialist departments i think use be called black on black gun crime. Now moving slightly away and living through the gunchester era reasons for these police (speacialist) units being set up was simply the fact that most gangs around manchester 2 in mosside and one in cheetham hill area ..the gang members were predominantley black...with exception to 1 further organised criminal gang in neighbouring city of salford the salford lads. now to coin a phrase to state out more ide have to have some sort of 5th amendment lol " The 5th amendment is part of the American constitution. | |||
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"The 5th amendment is part of the American constitution Yes i know it is ..not sure what the point is your trying to make ??" I'm always amused by people who cite American law in an English forum as if it means something. If you can't tell us what you know about gun crime without incriminating yourself (which is what the 5th amendment covers) there is similar protection in English law. I'll leave it to others to decide what that fear of self incrimination says about you. In my experience though, people in the UK who start shouting about the 5th do so because they think it means they don't have to provide evidence if they don't fancy 'being a grass' - which is not what the law means at all. So which are you? Former gun criminal or ill-informed? | |||
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"_wayman i mentioned the 5th amendament simply as a joke ..is that ok ??? Now we have cleared that up is there any thing of any relevance to any point you would like to make with regard the toppic of this thread jees i dont know some people get so touchy must be lack of sex lol " Indeed it must. I've reported your pm to admin by the way. | |||
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"so curious what your saying is its highly feasble to convict a person based on a blood droplet being left on a piece of clothing for 14 years if so and this is the reason for the conviction forgive my cynism with respect to our holier than though authorities .....but wouldnt that 14 year old blood droplet have been used as evidence to secure the conviction on the accused two previous trials ??? " Direct answer, yes it is feasible. The micro analysis used by todays forensic teams was not available for the earlier trials, we simply did not have the technology. The Crown didn't know the droplet was there for the first trials. That is why it was NEW evidence. The prosecution succesfully proved that the pattern of the droplet was only consistent with a drop of WET blood falling on the garment and then drying. The defense could not provide scientific testimony to dispute that. One year or eighteen years does not chage that. If I am to accept your _iew of this being 'dodgy' I would have to believe that someone, well after the previous two trials and years after his death, managed to get Stephen to bleed on a jacket, but only in such a minute amount that it wasn't detectable to the human eye. Faced with that evidence the Jury had no doubt. | |||
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"_wayman i mentioned the 5th amendament simply as a joke ..is that ok ??? Now we have cleared that up is there any thing of any relevance to any point you would like to make with regard the toppic of this thread jees i dont know some people get so touchy must be lack of sex lol Indeed it must. I've reported your pm to admin by the way." I havent pmd you _wayman so not sure why your saying that or trying to ridicule me in here... ime not really bothere i guess some simply have nothing better to do with there lives anyway you seem to have taken offence to some comments i have posted simply on my _iew on the toppic ..i guess some are easily offended so my apologies look forward to keeping my eye out fr you so i can apologise by shaking you by the hand | |||
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" However one thing that has shone through on this forum, is that enough people from very different walks of life, parts of the country, races and so on, cared enough to comment on it. That much gives me hope for us as a race and a people, that we might all one day remember that only one race walks the ground and breathes the air of this planet and that so many seem so determined to make such a miserable place, and that is the human race. Who said Swingers only talked about cocks and fanny, and occasionally and rather annoyingly Eastenders outside the playroom of a club? " | |||
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"sadly it seems to be the case that his skin colour did play such a part in how his murder was dealt with... and that was wrong.. ...I couldnt agree more murder is murder regardless of skin colour heres a fact that leaked out only to be hushed up again ...most gun and knife crimes are committed by mainly black young males. A celebratory was mugged at knifepoint in order to aide in the muggers capture he committed the grave offence of of describing his mugger stating on his twitter page that the mugger was black only to be contacted by the police telling him under no uncertain terms to remove the bit about his mugger being black ?? " As only you and one other poster seem to know anything about this, do you have a link, or the name of the supposed celeb. Or are you confusing bullshit emails with factual news sites. | |||
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"Now the individuals who stood in the way of these louts being brought to justice in the first place themselves need invesigating and prosecuting if and when evidence is brought to light. The other three in the gang who took part in the incident, those who gave false evidence on behalf of the accused, and the police officers who knowingly detroyed the first court case. " yes | |||
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"we should all be proud of this "We should be proud? why? that his family had to go through so many years of stress and anguish to finally bring justice to their son and expose the awfullness of our system? His family should be proud. Us? Joe Public? What did we do? | |||
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"Well lets hope that there was no cross contamination at the scene as this was purely down to forensics. " cross contamination at the scene? what are you talking about? cross contamination at the scene would constitute evidence? The court looked into the possiblity of cross contamination during the handling of evidence whist in police possession and all evidence showed that this was impossible. | |||
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"was on yahoo news,bbc news etc a few weeks ago!,i turned on pc a few times during the day and at work and there it was in front of me in black and white!. was surprised that the police had asked for the 'fact' that the attacker was a black person to be removed because surely they would want all the help they can get to apprehend the attacker?,i mean they do put out pics in order to ask for help to find attackers,wrongdoers etc. it was most definitly not a secret and i am suprised someone so keen on facts did not see it." I have to say I think I read/ heard about it, but not sure which person it was, but I remember it said it was a twitter feed. No help really but just to say if it wasn't true , it was still put out there. | |||
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"okay no worries surrey ..inner city police have own speacialist departments i think use be called black on black gun crime. Now moving slightly away and living through the gunchester era reasons for these police (speacialist) units being set up was simply the fact that most gangs around manchester 2 in mosside and one in cheetham hill area ..the gang members were predominantley black...with exception to 1 further organised criminal gang in neighbouring city of salford the salford lads. now to coin a phrase to state out more ide have to have some sort of 5th amendment lol clearly in any area of the country where one colour is predominant, then pro rata any gun and knife crime will be by that particular group.. you identified one group only, which can not be correct.. " how ridiculous is it to suggest that the pigment in one's skin has anything to do with a predisposition towards criminal activity? I cannot believe that people swallow this.  | |||
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"okay no worries surrey ..inner city police have own speacialist departments i think use be called black on black gun crime. Now moving slightly away and living through the gunchester era reasons for these police (speacialist) units being set up was simply the fact that most gangs around manchester 2 in mosside and one in cheetham hill area ..the gang members were predominantley black...with exception to 1 further organised criminal gang in neighbouring city of salford the salford lads. now to coin a phrase to state out more ide have to have some sort of 5th amendment lol clearly in any area of the country where one colour is predominant, then pro rata any gun and knife crime will be by that particular group.. I cannot believe that people swallow this. "
I believe it being reported about Stephen being black, may have had something to do with it being a racist attack?? Just guessing...
There was huge publicity around the Rhys Jones killing, which fellow gang members and parents protected Mercer. Again everyone in and from Liverpool knew exactly who had shot Rhys, but the police need evidence, which thankfully they finally did!! The gang that protected the individual had members of all races, as most major cities unfortunately have gangs, and most major cities have a multi cultural population nowadays.
I am glad that those two have finally been brought to justice after so long but lets hope the others get brought to justice too! And Stephen's family and friends can try and get some sort of closure.
RIP Stephen x | |||
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"I occassionally venture on to a couple far right forums, they can be as entertaining as they are scary. I mention this because the arguments on here that the conviction is unsafe are uncannily similar to crap I've read on there today. Make of this what you will/" As you seem to be such an authoritarian on this toppic could you please enlighten me on your opinion on far right _iews ?. From reading the posts all i see are people expressing there own _iews in a grown up and respectfull manner. It seems the odd minority on here can not express there opinion without getting angry simply because somebodys opinions are differnt to there own. How rude and primitive some people are. | |||
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"I occassionally venture on to a couple far right forums, they can be as entertaining as they are scary. I mention this because the arguments on here that the conviction is unsafe are uncannily similar to crap I've read on there today. Make of this what you will/ As you seem to be such an authoritarian on this toppic could you please enlighten me on your opinion on far right _iews ?. From reading the posts all i see are people expressing there own _iews in a grown up and respectfull manner. It seems the odd minority on here can not express there opinion without getting angry simply because somebodys opinions are differnt to there own. How rude and primitive some people are." I see you menton on your post you venture onto a few far right forums !! | |||
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