Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to The Lounge |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did she smash the world record ? Is there a big difference between the ladies and mens world record ? ... just out of interest " I can’t find that information, but someone else broke her record later, so I’m guessing not. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? " If I was looking for a topic to generate posts, I’d ask how many views have you had today or a Hot or Not thread.You may think it’s tiresome, but I hadn’t considered it before, till it happened to a sport I follow. Also the woman in question appears to be saying she doesn’t want to be strictly governed and be free to compete without an constraints, which I’m pretty sure is a first on the forums. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There are some sports that should be completely equal both men and women on the same stage. I would say to her to keep fighting. Doesn't her gender at birth. If she is legally a woman. Good enough. "  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? If I was looking for a topic to generate posts, I’d ask how many views have you had today or a Hot or Not thread.You may think it’s tiresome, but I hadn’t considered it before, till it happened to a sport I follow. Also the woman in question appears to be saying she doesn’t want to be strictly governed and be free to compete without an constraints, which I’m pretty sure is a first on the forums." If they want no constraints maybe they should allow performance enhancing drugs. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? " In fairness if you had any idea of the furore thus has caused in the world of cycling, you'd possibly feel different. Certainly I'm welcoming what could hopefully be a more informed discussion on here than the bigoted intolerance I've seenever elsewhere | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? If I was looking for a topic to generate posts, I’d ask how many views have you had today or a Hot or Not thread.You may think it’s tiresome, but I hadn’t considered it before, till it happened to a sport I follow. Also the woman in question appears to be saying she doesn’t want to be strictly governed and be free to compete without an constraints, which I’m pretty sure is a first on the forums. If they want no constraints maybe they should allow performance enhancing drugs. " I’ve said that for years, it’d make the olympics worth a watch. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? " Since there’s been nine posts in over an hour, I’d guess that wasn’t the motivation behind it | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? If I was looking for a topic to generate posts, I’d ask how many views have you had today or a Hot or Not thread.You may think it’s tiresome, but I hadn’t considered it before, till it happened to a sport I follow. Also the woman in question appears to be saying she doesn’t want to be strictly governed and be free to compete without an constraints, which I’m pretty sure is a first on the forums. If they want no constraints maybe they should allow performance enhancing drugs. I’ve said that for years, it’d make the olympics worth a watch. " I'd watch the Olympics if they were all pissed. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? If I was looking for a topic to generate posts, I’d ask how many views have you had today or a Hot or Not thread.You may think it’s tiresome, but I hadn’t considered it before, till it happened to a sport I follow. Also the woman in question appears to be saying she doesn’t want to be strictly governed and be free to compete without an constraints, which I’m pretty sure is a first on the forums. If they want no constraints maybe they should allow performance enhancing drugs. I’ve said that for years, it’d make the olympics worth a watch. I'd watch the Olympics if they were all pissed. " 100m sprint to the bar?  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? If I was looking for a topic to generate posts, I’d ask how many views have you had today or a Hot or Not thread.You may think it’s tiresome, but I hadn’t considered it before, till it happened to a sport I follow. Also the woman in question appears to be saying she doesn’t want to be strictly governed and be free to compete without an constraints, which I’m pretty sure is a first on the forums." Yep , that’s true Tame , I haven’t seen one on this subject before . I hadn’t heard of her so looked it up in You Tube . What’s interesting is that the woman who came third was complaining , yet she beat her ten out of eleven times before this race . It’s easy to say that a male to female transgender will have an adavantage , and in boxing and MMA that would be the case . In this case I don’t think it is unfair . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"From what I can tell, Mckinnon identifies as a female but that is as far as her transitioning has gone. So to all intents and purposes a man competin as a woman. Similar happened in Canada when a woman who had competed very mediocrely while male started identitying as a female became national MTB downhill champ. Mckinnon comes across as very politically motivated and very confrontational in any quote I've seen from her and I can't help but think her intention has always been to cause a giant shitstorm and revel at being the eye in the storm. I have no idea what the answer to the question of trans women competing in sport but I feel for the women beaten. Sprinting is incredibly physical and Mckinnon is physically huge compared to her components. Exactly the same with the Canadian I mentioned abovearlier. Yes the Trans community have a right to compete in sport but women also have a right not to have to compete against someone with a considerable genetic advantage. This isn't an isolated incident, in America it's becoming am increasing issue in track and field and I expect possibly in other sports and countries."
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If someone identifies as female then that's it. end of story. They shouldn't be checked for how "really female they are" gender is not physical. Maybe it'll encourage CIS women to try harder?" So its perfectly okay (for example) that today you are Clement a very good but not top class cyclist to just identifying yourself as female the next day, changing your name to Clemintine and competing at the top level of womens cycling? Sorry if i may have just outted you. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? " No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If someone identifies as female then that's it. end of story. They shouldn't be checked for how "really female they are" gender is not physical. Maybe it'll encourage CIS women to try harder? So its perfectly okay (for example) that today you are Clement a very good but not top class cyclist to just identifying yourself as female the next day, changing your name to Clemintine and competing at the top level of womens cycling? Sorry if i may have just outted you. "My trans name is "Krissy". If i identify as female, I'm female. Its up to the uci, and other sporting bodies to change their acceptance policy. Maybe CIS women and Trans women. For example. Or maybe it's time to ban sports divided by gender. Allow everyone to compete. Surely that would be the progressive, inclusive thing to do? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"..has won a world title at the 2018 UCI Master Track Cycling World Championships. Rachel McKinnon, who competes in both road and track cycling, was born biological male and identifies as being transgender woman. McKinnon also set a new World Record in the qualifying rounds. Current rules that transgender women competing in women’s events must test below a specified level of testosterone, which the UCI abides by. In an interview she said she believes hormone suppression is against human rights and that testosterone testing is insensitive. She said, ‘We cannot have a woman legally recognised as a trans woman by society and not be recognised that way in sports....Focussing on performance advantage is largely irrelevant, because this is a rights issue. We shouldn’t be worried about trans people taking over the Olympics. We should be worried about their fairness and human rights instead.’ Okay, what about the fairness of women competing against trans women. Is this a case of having your cake and eating it ? " It's not a rights issue. It's a cheating issue. The idea that testosterone would even be the only issue is patently false. Skeleton differences make a far bigger impact in my sport of choice - MMA. This is what happens when people embrace radical ideology without thinking it through. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. " The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If someone identifies as female then that's it. end of story. They shouldn't be checked for how "really female they are" gender is not physical. Maybe it'll encourage CIS women to try harder? So its perfectly okay (for example) that today you are Clement a very good but not top class cyclist to just identifying yourself as female the next day, changing your name to Clemintine and competing at the top level of womens cycling? Sorry if i may have just outted you.
My trans name is "Krissy". If i identify as female, I'm female. Its up to the uci, and other sporting bodies to change their acceptance policy. Maybe CIS women and Trans women. For example. Or maybe it's time to ban sports divided by gender. Allow everyone to compete. Surely that would be the progressive, inclusive thing to do?"They aren't divided by gender, they are divided by sex. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If someone identifies as female then that's it. end of story. They shouldn't be checked for how "really female they are" gender is not physical. Maybe it'll encourage CIS women to try harder? So its perfectly okay (for example) that today you are Clement a very good but not top class cyclist to just identifying yourself as female the next day, changing your name to Clemintine and competing at the top level of womens cycling? Sorry if i may have just outted you.
My trans name is "Krissy". If i identify as female, I'm female. Its up to the uci, and other sporting bodies to change their acceptance policy. Maybe CIS women and Trans women. For example. Or maybe it's time to ban sports divided by gender. Allow everyone to compete. Surely that would be the progressive, inclusive thing to do?
They aren't divided by gender, they are divided by sex. "Time for a change then. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter." Are you really so poorly informed in sports that the logic you presented actually makes sense to you? If I juiced up for an MMA fight against khabib nurmagomedov, he'd still beat me. Doesn't mean i wasn't also cheating. Keep your ideology out of sports and stop advocating for men beating up women. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter. Are you really so poorly informed in sports that the logic you presented actually makes sense to you? If I juiced up for an MMA fight against khabib nurmagomedov, he'd still beat me. Doesn't mean i wasn't also cheating. Keep your ideology out of sports and stop advocating for men beating up women. " Not men if they identify as women. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter. Are you really so poorly informed in sports that the logic you presented actually makes sense to you? If I juiced up for an MMA fight against khabib nurmagomedov, he'd still beat me. Doesn't mean i wasn't also cheating. Keep your ideology out of sports and stop advocating for men beating up women. " Thanks for an interesting thread Tame. Been on the forums long enough to know that now Broken Biscuits is involved, intelligent discussion has ended on this thread. Have better things to do than read their ill informed bile so enjoy the rest of your day. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter. Are you really so poorly informed in sports that the logic you presented actually makes sense to you? If I juiced up for an MMA fight against khabib nurmagomedov, he'd still beat me. Doesn't mean i wasn't also cheating. Keep your ideology out of sports and stop advocating for men beating up women. Thanks for an interesting thread Tame. Been on the forums long enough to know that now Broken Biscuits is involved, intelligent discussion has ended on this thread. Have better things to do than read their ill informed bile so enjoy the rest of your day." MMA the inconvient sport that no ideologue wants to discuss. My bile is 100% informed by science, compared to yours which is nothing but poorly thought out ideology  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter. Are you really so poorly informed in sports that the logic you presented actually makes sense to you? If I juiced up for an MMA fight against khabib nurmagomedov, he'd still beat me. Doesn't mean i wasn't also cheating. Keep your ideology out of sports and stop advocating for men beating up women. Not men if they identify as women. " Tell that to the judge | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Surely physical strength is not the only factor determining a persons sporting prowess. It is not necessarily the biggest and strongest competitor who wins,in all sports. I read recently about a MMA fight when a competitor had her skull cracked by Fallon Fox,also a trans woman.Now Fallon may have been stronger than the other woman but,surely part of the skill in fighting sports is the ability to avoid blows.If a person is strong enough to crack a skull then they could crack a male skull too,couldnt they?. There probably is a very good case for segregating sports competitors by size,weight and strength but not necessarily by sex (past or present). The average man may be stronger than the average woman but that could easily be used as an argument for pitting below average men against above average women.The strength difference could then be eliminated and the skills could shine through. " Fallon Fox is a very untalented fighter who is winning fights purely based on a strength advantage which is the result of being a biological male. Fallon Fox was the fighter than made lefty UFC commentator Joe Rogan change his ideas of trans MMA competitors after watching Fallon fight and how poor Fallon's technique really is. In elite sports, we ban people for relatively minor advantages gained from PEDs and yet you want to turn a blind eye to the biggest performance enhancement there is! Fallon Fox is a biological male beating up biological females for money. I have a very big problem with that. I have no problem with a trans division or Fallon Fox competing in the biological male division. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Surely physical strength is not the only factor determining a persons sporting prowess. It is not necessarily the biggest and strongest competitor who wins,in all sports. I read recently about a MMA fight when a competitor had her skull cracked by Fallon Fox,also a trans woman.Now Fallon may have been stronger than the other woman but,surely part of the skill in fighting sports is the ability to avoid blows.If a person is strong enough to crack a skull then they could crack a male skull too,couldnt they?. There probably is a very good case for segregating sports competitors by size,weight and strength but not necessarily by sex (past or present). The average man may be stronger than the average woman but that could easily be used as an argument for pitting below average men against above average women.The strength difference could then be eliminated and the skills could shine through. " Who would you rather have a punch in the face from? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter. Are you really so poorly informed in sports that the logic you presented actually makes sense to you? If I juiced up for an MMA fight against khabib nurmagomedov, he'd still beat me. Doesn't mean i wasn't also cheating. Keep your ideology out of sports and stop advocating for men beating up women. Not men if they identify as women. Tell that to the judge " Are the judges seeing trans women as men?! They should be sacked! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It's time to combine all sports, women need to stand on equal footings throughout society." Absolutely not. Womens MMA is a roaring success, most womens title fights headline their PPV. It's probably the highest earning womens sport now and actually commercially viable in its own right. Absolutely no need to change that. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It's time to combine all sports, women need to stand on equal footings throughout society. Absolutely not. Womens MMA is a roaring success, most womens title fights headline their PPV. It's probably the highest earning womens sport now and actually commercially viable in its own right. Absolutely no need to change that. " Sounds sexist. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It's time to combine all sports, women need to stand on equal footings throughout society." Exactly. This would stop the trouble Around fair prize money. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It's time to combine all sports, women need to stand on equal footings throughout society." Physically, women aren't equal to men. If they were they wouldn't have their tees in golf nearer to the hole. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter. Are you really so poorly informed in sports that the logic you presented actually makes sense to you? If I juiced up for an MMA fight against khabib nurmagomedov, he'd still beat me. Doesn't mean i wasn't also cheating. Keep your ideology out of sports and stop advocating for men beating up women. Not men if they identify as women. Tell that to the judge Are the judges seeing trans women as men?! They should be sacked!" This isn t about who you want to be Clem, it's about what you are capable of, even with training. The best woman boxer will struggle against a bad male boxer, unless the male boxer is weakened in some way. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? If I was looking for a topic to generate posts, I’d ask how many views have you had today or a Hot or Not thread.You may think it’s tiresome, but I hadn’t considered it before, till it happened to a sport I follow. Also the woman in question appears to be saying she doesn’t want to be strictly governed and be free to compete without an constraints, which I’m pretty sure is a first on the forums. If they want no constraints maybe they should allow performance enhancing drugs. " My thoughts too. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" The best woman boxer will struggle against a bad male boxer, unless the male boxer is weakened in some way. " I agree - it's not about being PC it's about facts. Men are physically stronger than women. It's not a fair fight regardless of who identifies as what. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter. Are you really so poorly informed in sports that the logic you presented actually makes sense to you? If I juiced up for an MMA fight against khabib nurmagomedov, he'd still beat me. Doesn't mean i wasn't also cheating. Keep your ideology out of sports and stop advocating for men beating up women. Not men if they identify as women. Tell that to the judge Are the judges seeing trans women as men?! They should be sacked! This isn t about who you want to be Clem, it's about what you are capable of, even with training. The best woman boxer will struggle against a bad male boxer, unless the male boxer is weakened in some way. " There must be some sports that CIS women are competitive at, darts maybe? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"From what I can tell, Mckinnon identifies as a female but that is as far as her transitioning has gone. So to all intents and purposes a man competin as a woman. Similar happened in Canada when a woman who had competed very mediocrely while male started identitying as a female became national MTB downhill champ. Mckinnon comes across as very politically motivated and very confrontational in any quote I've seen from her and I can't help but think her intention has always been to cause a giant shitstorm and revel at being the eye in the storm. I have no idea what the answer to the question of trans women competing in sport but I feel for the women beaten. Sprinting is incredibly physical and Mckinnon is physically huge compared to her components. Exactly the same with the Canadian I mentioned abovearlier. Yes the Trans community have a right to compete in sport but women also have a right not to have to compete against someone with a considerable genetic advantage. This isn't an isolated incident, in America it's becoming am increasing issue in track and field and I expect possibly in other sports and countries."
Simply identifying as a woman but keeping the biological advantage of a man feels like cheating IMHO. I'm assuming this is why they have the testosterone testing. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"From what I can tell, Mckinnon identifies as a female but that is as far as her transitioning has gone. So to all intents and purposes a man competin as a woman. Similar happened in Canada when a woman who had competed very mediocrely while male started identitying as a female became national MTB downhill champ. Mckinnon comes across as very politically motivated and very confrontational in any quote I've seen from her and I can't help but think her intention has always been to cause a giant shitstorm and revel at being the eye in the storm. I have no idea what the answer to the question of trans women competing in sport but I feel for the women beaten. Sprinting is incredibly physical and Mckinnon is physically huge compared to her components. Exactly the same with the Canadian I mentioned abovearlier. Yes the Trans community have a right to compete in sport but women also have a right not to have to compete against someone with a considerable genetic advantage. This isn't an isolated incident, in America it's becoming am increasing issue in track and field and I expect possibly in other sports and countries.
Simply identifying as a woman but keeping the biological advantage of a man feels like cheating IMHO. I'm assuming this is why they have the testosterone testing. "Its ridiculous. Testosterone alone does not maketh the man. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If someone identifies as female then that's it. end of story. They shouldn't be checked for how "really female they are" gender is not physical. Maybe it'll encourage CIS women to try harder?" Exactly gender isn't physical | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Surely physical strength is not the only factor determining a persons sporting prowess. It is not necessarily the biggest and strongest competitor who wins,in all sports. I read recently about a MMA fight when a competitor had her skull cracked by Fallon Fox,also a trans woman.Now Fallon may have been stronger than the other woman but,surely part of the skill in fighting sports is the ability to avoid blows.If a person is strong enough to crack a skull then they could crack a male skull too,couldnt they?. There probably is a very good case for segregating sports competitors by size,weight and strength but not necessarily by sex (past or present). The average man may be stronger than the average woman but that could easily be used as an argument for pitting below average men against above average women.The strength difference could then be eliminated and the skills could shine through. Fallon Fox is a very untalented fighter who is winning fights purely based on a strength advantage which is the result of being a biological male. Fallon Fox was the fighter than made lefty UFC commentator Joe Rogan change his ideas of trans MMA competitors after watching Fallon fight and how poor Fallon's technique really is. In elite sports, we ban people for relatively minor advantages gained from PEDs and yet you want to turn a blind eye to the biggest performance enhancement there is! Fallon Fox is a biological male beating up biological females for money. I have a very big problem with that. I have no problem with a trans division or Fallon Fox competing in the biological male division." Im not saying turn a blind eye to performance enhancement but, if for example, Fallon Fox is too big and strong for the class shes in,shouldnt she be moved up a weight class and made to fight people of similar size and strength,regardless of their sex? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter. Are you really so poorly informed in sports that the logic you presented actually makes sense to you? If I juiced up for an MMA fight against khabib nurmagomedov, he'd still beat me. Doesn't mean i wasn't also cheating. Keep your ideology out of sports and stop advocating for men beating up women. Not men if they identify as women. Tell that to the judge " You know Clem trolls. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If someone identifies as female then that's it. end of story. They shouldn't be checked for how "really female they are" gender is not physical. Maybe it'll encourage CIS women to try harder?" Nothing like a punch in the face to make a woman try harder, ain't that right clem? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If someone identifies as female then that's it. end of story. They shouldn't be checked for how "really female they are" gender is not physical. Maybe it'll encourage CIS women to try harder? Nothing like a punch in the face to make a woman try harder, ain't that right clem? " From another female? What's the problem with that? That's what they signed up for. I'm not the one denying trans women arn't real women. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"No personal offence meant Mr Impala but these sort of threads are tiresome. It's strictly governed. There really is no story. And yet there's another "fascinating" Trans thread every other day. Is it just that it's an easy topic to generate posts and responses? No it's not tiresome. Maybe you don't care about any sport passionately, but many of it do. It's cheating pure and simple. The 3rd place rider had actually beaten McKinnon in 11 of 13 races. No mention of cheating then. And as she won the title, guess the governing body don't think so either. Maybe you can write them a strongly worded letter. Are you really so poorly informed in sports that the logic you presented actually makes sense to you? If I juiced up for an MMA fight against khabib nurmagomedov, he'd still beat me. Doesn't mean i wasn't also cheating. Keep your ideology out of sports and stop advocating for men beating up women. Not men if they identify as women. Tell that to the judge You know Clem trolls. " You know Broken is living in the 1950's. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"..has won a world title at the 2018 UCI Master Track Cycling World Championships. Rachel McKinnon, who competes in both road and track cycling, was born biological male and identifies as being transgender woman. McKinnon also set a new World Record in the qualifying rounds. Current rules that transgender women competing in women’s events must test below a specified level of testosterone, which the UCI abides by. In an interview she said she believes hormone suppression is against human rights and that testosterone testing is insensitive. She said, ‘We cannot have a woman legally recognised as a trans woman by society and not be recognised that way in sports....Focussing on performance advantage is largely irrelevant, because this is a rights issue. We shouldn’t be worried about trans people taking over the Olympics. We should be worried about their fairness and human rights instead.’ Okay, what about the fairness of women competing against trans women. Is this a case of having your cake and eating it ? " I don't know all the facts so I'm basing my response on what I believe to be true; that being, in cycling, the fastest men are faster than the fastest woman. Therefore no matter how hard the worlds fastest person born with a female body trains they won't be able to beat they world's fastest person born with a male body (in the same cycling discapline). Fairness has to be for everyone. Should they fellow the Top Gear example of putting a 'W' against a time to signify that the condition under which that time was achieved were different to those of the other competetors and put 'T' against this new world record? I think so. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"From what I can tell, Mckinnon identifies as a female but that is as far as her transitioning has gone. So to all intents and purposes a man competin as a woman. Similar happened in Canada when a woman who had competed very mediocrely while male started identitying as a female became national MTB downhill champ. Mckinnon comes across as very politically motivated and very confrontational in any quote I've seen from her and I can't help but think her intention has always been to cause a giant shitstorm and revel at being the eye in the storm. I have no idea what the answer to the question of trans women competing in sport but I feel for the women beaten. Sprinting is incredibly physical and Mckinnon is physically huge compared to her components. Exactly the same with the Canadian I mentioned abovearlier. Yes the Trans community have a right to compete in sport but women also have a right not to have to compete against someone with a considerable genetic advantage. This isn't an isolated incident, in America it's becoming am increasing issue in track and field and I expect possibly in other sports and countries.
Simply identifying as a woman but keeping the biological advantage of a man feels like cheating IMHO. I'm assuming this is why they have the testosterone testing.
Its ridiculous. Testosterone alone does not maketh the man."Of course not. Women have levels of testosterone and men have levels of oestrogen, they come from the same source. However, it must be an agreed, easy to test, indicator. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If someone identifies as female then that's it. end of story. They shouldn't be checked for how "really female they are" gender is not physical. Maybe it'll encourage CIS women to try harder? Nothing like a punch in the face to make a woman try harder, ain't that right clem? From another female? What's the problem with that? That's what they signed up for. I'm not the one denying trans women arn't real women. " Are trans women biological females? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If someone identifies as female then that's it. end of story. They shouldn't be checked for how "really female they are" gender is not physical. Maybe it'll encourage CIS women to try harder? Nothing like a punch in the face to make a woman try harder, ain't that right clem? From another female? What's the problem with that? That's what they signed up for. I'm not the one denying trans women arn't real women. Are trans women biological females? " They're already allowed to compete arn't they? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"From what I can tell, Mckinnon identifies as a female but that is as far as her transitioning has gone. So to all intents and purposes a man competin as a woman. Similar happened in Canada when a woman who had competed very mediocrely while male started identitying as a female became national MTB downhill champ. Mckinnon comes across as very politically motivated and very confrontational in any quote I've seen from her and I can't help but think her intention has always been to cause a giant shitstorm and revel at being the eye in the storm. I have no idea what the answer to the question of trans women competing in sport but I feel for the women beaten. Sprinting is incredibly physical and Mckinnon is physically huge compared to her components. Exactly the same with the Canadian I mentioned abovearlier. Yes the Trans community have a right to compete in sport but women also have a right not to have to compete against someone with a considerable genetic advantage. This isn't an isolated incident, in America it's becoming am increasing issue in track and field and I expect possibly in other sports and countries.
Simply identifying as a woman but keeping the biological advantage of a man feels like cheating IMHO. I'm assuming this is why they have the testosterone testing.
Its ridiculous. Testosterone alone does not maketh the man.
Of course not. Women have levels of testosterone and men have levels of oestrogen, they come from the same source. However, it must be an agreed, easy to test, indicator. "So if a cis woman with naturally high testosterone was over the limit she should be disqualified? Or fingered "just to check"? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"At the risk of being accused of bigotry and intolerance it seems to me that any sport that relies on physical ability would give anyone born a man an unfair advantage when competing against women regardless of whether they are now legally considered to be women." That's exactly why they don't. Strict rules for competing and the governing bodies were persuaded by available medical science. Instead of, you know, the half informed opinions of Fab commentators  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is on my pet subject of how subjective thoughts can't trump material reality. The only reason for separating sports by sex is if one sex, because of their physical characteristics, have an inherent advantage over the other. Where that doesn't apply there's no separation. Show jumping and shooting for example are not sex segregated. Clearly, in any sport that requires physical strength, males will have an advantage. The best males will always beat the best females. A striking example is that the female world record for. 100m is routinely beaten in male Junior championships. I saw a suggestion that one way to rejig categories to include trans people and maintain fairness would be to have an open category and a female bodied category. Anyone, male, female or trans could compete in the former. " How would that be fair!? There's a reason trans people like Fallon Fox don't want to compete in the men's division, they'd get destroyed. Surely a trans division is the way to go? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Fallon Fox is a very untalented fighter who is winning fights purely based on a strength advantage which is the result of being a biological male. Fallon Fox was the fighter than made lefty UFC commentator Joe Rogan change his ideas of trans MMA competitors after watching Fallon fight and how poor Fallon's technique really is. In elite sports, we ban people for relatively minor advantages gained from PEDs and yet you want to turn a blind eye to the biggest performance enhancement there is! Fallon Fox is a biological male beating up biological females for money. I have a very big problem with that. I have no problem with a trans division or Fallon Fox competing in the biological male division." Thanks for that, never heard of her so someone else to look up. a FtM (female to male) transguy has testosterone injections. Is there a limit in MMA on testosterone levels for both male and female competitors? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is on my pet subject of how subjective thoughts can't trump material reality. The only reason for separating sports by sex is if one sex, because of their physical characteristics, have an inherent advantage over the other. Where that doesn't apply there's no separation. Show jumping and shooting for example are not sex segregated. Clearly, in any sport that requires physical strength, males will have an advantage. The best males will always beat the best females. A striking example is that the female world record for. 100m is routinely beaten in male Junior championships. I saw a suggestion that one way to rejig categories to include trans people and maintain fairness would be to have an open category and a female bodied category. Anyone, male, female or trans could compete in the former. How would that be fair!? There's a reason trans people like Fallon Fox don't want to compete in the men's division, they'd get destroyed. Surely a trans division is the way to go? " There wouldn’t be any money in it would there ? And there would be complaints from the trans community that they were being treated differently . This is the essence of the issue and I’m not sure how it can be resolved with the current way of thinking being imposed on society . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"..has won a world title at the 2018 UCI Master Track Cycling World Championships. Rachel McKinnon, who competes in both road and track cycling, was born biological male and identifies as being transgender woman. McKinnon also set a new World Record in the qualifying rounds. Current rules that transgender women competing in women’s events must test below a specified level of testosterone, which the UCI abides by. In an interview she said she believes hormone suppression is against human rights and that testosterone testing is insensitive. She said, ‘We cannot have a woman legally recognised as a trans woman by society and not be recognised that way in sports....Focussing on performance advantage is largely irrelevant, because this is a rights issue. We shouldn’t be worried about trans people taking over the Olympics. We should be worried about their fairness and human rights instead.’ Okay, what about the fairness of women competing against trans women. Is this a case of having your cake and eating it ? I don't know all the facts so I'm basing my response on what I believe to be true; that being, in cycling, the fastest men are faster than the fastest woman. Therefore no matter how hard the worlds fastest person born with a female body trains they won't be able to beat they world's fastest person born with a male body (in the same cycling discapline). Fairness has to be for everyone. Should they fellow the Top Gear example of putting a 'W' against a time to signify that the condition under which that time was achieved were different to those of the other competetors and put 'T' against this new world record? I think so." I mentioned earlier that the 3rd placed competitor had beaten McKinnon 11 out of 13 meets. With no complaints. Kind of defeats your "no matter how hard" argument. But although I do like the T suggestion, that gets us back to a different argument altogether. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" There must be some sports that CIS women are competitive at, darts maybe?" Horse based events such as Showjumping, Dressage and to a limited point Horse racing. There is no physical reason why a woman cannot be competitive as men in sport such as Darts, Snooker, Pool or any other sport where physicality is the prime importance. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Fallon Fox is a very untalented fighter who is winning fights purely based on a strength advantage which is the result of being a biological male. Fallon Fox was the fighter than made lefty UFC commentator Joe Rogan change his ideas of trans MMA competitors after watching Fallon fight and how poor Fallon's technique really is. In elite sports, we ban people for relatively minor advantages gained from PEDs and yet you want to turn a blind eye to the biggest performance enhancement there is! Fallon Fox is a biological male beating up biological females for money. I have a very big problem with that. I have no problem with a trans division or Fallon Fox competing in the biological male division. Thanks for that, never heard of her so someone else to look up. a FtM (female to male) transguy has testosterone injections. Is there a limit in MMA on testosterone levels for both male and female competitors?" Excellent question! MMA is an unusual sport in the sense that it's got different promotions with different policies. Historically, the elite promotion has always been the UFC. The UFC is clear that it's divisions are based on sex and not gender, therefore Fallon Fox could not compete in the UFC womens division. Other promotions can make different policies. Several elite female performers have said they would not accept a fight against Fallon Fox on principle, even though they'd probably win because Fallon Fox is actually a shit fighter. UFC does have both drugs testing and rampant drug abuse. Drugs testing is a flawed concept and testosterone illustrates why. To the best of my knowledge, the test for testosterone is to look for levels more than 4x the average. So actually you can juice up on testosterone to a certain level and not fail a drugs test. The same problem applies to human growth hormone. There's an interesting example in amateur wrestling where a biological girl was transitioning and prescribed testosterone. They actually wanted to compete in the male division but the body dictated that it's divisions were sex, not gender. Since prescription drugs are ok, this led to a juiced up champion. Therefore, I think we need a bit of common sense with this. Perhaps a FtM trans person can compete in the men's division but it's unfair to have MtF trans people in the women's division. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is on my pet subject of how subjective thoughts can't trump material reality. The only reason for separating sports by sex is if one sex, because of their physical characteristics, have an inherent advantage over the other. Where that doesn't apply there's no separation. Show jumping and shooting for example are not sex segregated. Clearly, in any sport that requires physical strength, males will have an advantage. The best males will always beat the best females. A striking example is that the female world record for. 100m is routinely beaten in male Junior championships. I saw a suggestion that one way to rejig categories to include trans people and maintain fairness would be to have an open category and a female bodied category. Anyone, male, female or trans could compete in the former. How would that be fair!? There's a reason trans people like Fallon Fox don't want to compete in the men's division, they'd get destroyed. Surely a trans division is the way to go? There wouldn’t be any money in it would there ? And there would be complaints from the trans community that they were being treated differently . This is the essence of the issue and I’m not sure how it can be resolved with the current way of thinking being imposed on society . " An MMA show is a mix of all divisions (Most of which are based on sex and weight) usually with one fight from each. So it's unlikely to effect the commercial viability of any particular show. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is on my pet subject of how subjective thoughts can't trump material reality. The only reason for separating sports by sex is if one sex, because of their physical characteristics, have an inherent advantage over the other. Where that doesn't apply there's no separation. Show jumping and shooting for example are not sex segregated. Clearly, in any sport that requires physical strength, males will have an advantage. The best males will always beat the best females. A striking example is that the female world record for. 100m is routinely beaten in male Junior championships. I saw a suggestion that one way to rejig categories to include trans people and maintain fairness would be to have an open category and a female bodied category. Anyone, male, female or trans could compete in the former. How would that be fair!? There's a reason trans people like Fallon Fox don't want to compete in the men's division, they'd get destroyed. Surely a trans division is the way to go? " The argument is basically, and often implicitly, that male bodies do not give an advantage. If that's right, let's have an open contest and see who's right. The female bodied athletes could choose that category or the female only one. Obviously they'd all choose the latter. Your suggestion would also work. A translympics to go with the paralympics. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I think this whole discussion highlights the difference between trans rights struggles and other rights struggles. Gay people didn't fight to be considered straight, black people didn't fight to be considered white, women didn't fight to be considered men. . They all fought against prejudice and discrimination based on something personal to them. Insofar as trans people fight against prejudice and discrimination against them, I'm all in favour. Insofar they fight to be members of a social group to which they objectively do not belong and to have access to facilitaties reserved for that group, I can't agree. " Fortunately, it's not up to you. Although you are entitled to your view. But that's not objective, it's your subjective opinion only. The majority of those spaces are trans inclusive through choice. Their own choice. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I think this whole discussion highlights the difference between trans rights struggles and other rights struggles. Gay people didn't fight to be considered straight, black people didn't fight to be considered white, women didn't fight to be considered men. . They all fought against prejudice and discrimination based on something personal to them. Insofar as trans people fight against prejudice and discrimination against them, I'm all in favour. Insofar they fight to be members of a social group to which they objectively do not belong and to have access to facilitaties reserved for that group, I can't agree. Fortunately, it's not up to you. Although you are entitled to your view. But that's not objective, it's your subjective opinion only. The majority of those spaces are trans inclusive through choice. Their own choice." Indeed and many biological women object to that. And according the GRA consultation the government doesn't intend to change the law that permits equality act exemptions based on sex as opposed to gender when to do so is proportionate. And biological women are objectively different from trans women. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I think this whole discussion highlights the difference between trans rights struggles and other rights struggles. Gay people didn't fight to be considered straight, black people didn't fight to be considered white, women didn't fight to be considered men. . They all fought against prejudice and discrimination based on something personal to them. Insofar as trans people fight against prejudice and discrimination against them, I'm all in favour. Insofar they fight to be members of a social group to which they objectively do not belong and to have access to facilitaties reserved for that group, I can't agree. Fortunately, it's not up to you. Although you are entitled to your view. But that's not objective, it's your subjective opinion only. The majority of those spaces are trans inclusive through choice. Their own choice. Indeed and many biological women object to that. And according the GRA consultation the government doesn't intend to change the law that permits equality act exemptions based on sex as opposed to gender when to do so is proportionate. And biological women are objectively different from trans women. " I've stated elsewhere that I'm an LGBT Officer for a large organisation. You won't educate me on what the GRA reform proposes. And the exceptions don't mean what you think. I'm post op and those can not be applied in those cases. Legality kicks in. However there is no push from us to change the exceptions, that's a crock of shit being sold by opponents to reform. Have you even read the consultation? It has specific questions about keeping safeguarding measures. And welcomes suggestions also. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I think this whole discussion highlights the difference between trans rights struggles and other rights struggles. Gay people didn't fight to be considered straight, black people didn't fight to be considered white, women didn't fight to be considered men. . They all fought against prejudice and discrimination based on something personal to them. Insofar as trans people fight against prejudice and discrimination against them, I'm all in favour. Insofar they fight to be members of a social group to which they objectively do not belong and to have access to facilitaties reserved for that group, I can't agree. Fortunately, it's not up to you. Although you are entitled to your view. But that's not objective, it's your subjective opinion only. The majority of those spaces are trans inclusive through choice. Their own choice. Indeed and many biological women object to that. And according the GRA consultation the government doesn't intend to change the law that permits equality act exemptions based on sex as opposed to gender when to do so is proportionate. And biological women are objectively different from trans women. I've stated elsewhere that I'm an LGBT Officer for a large organisation. You won't educate me on what the GRA reform proposes. And the exceptions don't mean what you think. I'm post op and those can not be applied in those cases. Legality kicks in. However there is no push from us to change the exceptions, that's a crock of shit being sold by opponents to reform. Have you even read the consultation? It has specific questions about keeping safeguarding measures. And welcomes suggestions also." I have read the consultation and that was my point. That sex exemptions will continue to apply and in some circumstances it will continue to be lawful to exclude trans women from female only facilities. Which rather undermines the idea that biological women and trans women are objectively the same. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" And biological women are objectively different from trans women. " For anything like this you have to have a benchmark by which its measured. The problem then is that X amount get excluded as they do not meet the benchmark if the benchmark is an absolute. If you cannot have an absolute you therefore cannot have a benchmark. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I think this whole discussion highlights the difference between trans rights struggles and other rights struggles. Gay people didn't fight to be considered straight, black people didn't fight to be considered white, women didn't fight to be considered men. . They all fought against prejudice and discrimination based on something personal to them. Insofar as trans people fight against prejudice and discrimination against them, I'm all in favour. Insofar they fight to be members of a social group to which they objectively do not belong and to have access to facilitaties reserved for that group, I can't agree. Fortunately, it's not up to you. Although you are entitled to your view. But that's not objective, it's your subjective opinion only. The majority of those spaces are trans inclusive through choice. Their own choice. Indeed and many biological women object to that. And according the GRA consultation the government doesn't intend to change the law that permits equality act exemptions based on sex as opposed to gender when to do so is proportionate. And biological women are objectively different from trans women. I've stated elsewhere that I'm an LGBT Officer for a large organisation. You won't educate me on what the GRA reform proposes. And the exceptions don't mean what you think. I'm post op and those can not be applied in those cases. Legality kicks in. However there is no push from us to change the exceptions, that's a crock of shit being sold by opponents to reform. Have you even read the consultation? It has specific questions about keeping safeguarding measures. And welcomes suggestions also. I have read the consultation and that was my point. That sex exemptions will continue to apply and in some circumstances it will continue to be lawful to exclude trans women from female only facilities. Which rather undermines the idea that biological women and trans women are objectively the same. " The “Services, Public Functions and Associations: Statutory Code of Practice” (EHRC, 2011) document provides useful guidance to the exceptions to this rule. It says service providers can provide a different service, or exclude a trans person, but this will only be lawful “where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. To clarify the nature of this exception, it says , “any exception to the prohibition of discrimination must be applied as restrictively as possible and the denial of a service to a transsexual person should only occur in exceptional circumstances”. Far from the blanket ban that today’s media suggests, in general the exceptions can only be used where every way to enable full inclusion has been explored and no other option can be found. Under no circumstances should an organisation treat the exceptions as something it should do. An exception is a last resort. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I think this whole discussion highlights the difference between trans rights struggles and other rights struggles. Gay people didn't fight to be considered straight, black people didn't fight to be considered white, women didn't fight to be considered men. . They all fought against prejudice and discrimination based on something personal to them. Insofar as trans people fight against prejudice and discrimination against them, I'm all in favour. Insofar they fight to be members of a social group to which they objectively do not belong and to have access to facilitaties reserved for that group, I can't agree. Fortunately, it's not up to you. Although you are entitled to your view. But that's not objective, it's your subjective opinion only. The majority of those spaces are trans inclusive through choice. Their own choice. Indeed and many biological women object to that. And according the GRA consultation the government doesn't intend to change the law that permits equality act exemptions based on sex as opposed to gender when to do so is proportionate. And biological women are objectively different from trans women. I've stated elsewhere that I'm an LGBT Officer for a large organisation. You won't educate me on what the GRA reform proposes. And the exceptions don't mean what you think. I'm post op and those can not be applied in those cases. Legality kicks in. However there is no push from us to change the exceptions, that's a crock of shit being sold by opponents to reform. Have you even read the consultation? It has specific questions about keeping safeguarding measures. And welcomes suggestions also. I have read the consultation and that was my point. That sex exemptions will continue to apply and in some circumstances it will continue to be lawful to exclude trans women from female only facilities. Which rather undermines the idea that biological women and trans women are objectively the same. The “Services, Public Functions and Associations: Statutory Code of Practice” (EHRC, 2011) document provides useful guidance to the exceptions to this rule. It says service providers can provide a different service, or exclude a trans person, but this will only be lawful “where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. To clarify the nature of this exception, it says , “any exception to the prohibition of discrimination must be applied as restrictively as possible and the denial of a service to a transsexual person should only occur in exceptional circumstances”. Far from the blanket ban that today’s media suggests, in general the exceptions can only be used where every way to enable full inclusion has been explored and no other option can be found. Under no circumstances should an organisation treat the exceptions as something it should do. An exception is a last resort." . Exactly. So trans women are not in the same legal category as biological women. In some circumstances trans women can be excluded from women only facilities, whilst biological women can't. One things for sure, it's going to be good for lawyers. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"One things for sure, it's going to be good for lawyers. " True dat!
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"By the way, women with a history of violent/abusive behaviour can be and are often excluded from same sex spaces. As are some Trans women from Trans safe spaces. Duty of care applies." But. Biological women can't be excluded from women only spaces because they are biological women. As quoted by you, in certain circumstances, trans women can be excluded from women only spaces purely because they are not biological women, in the same way that men can be excluded. My issue here is the assertion (and I don't you if you agree with the assertion ), made by some trans activists that trans women are, in all material respects, the same as biological women. It seems to me that is patently untrue. Trans women and biological women are different in certain important respects and thus require different treatment. . It goes without saying that both are nevertheless entitled to dignity and respect. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
Thankfully, there are better things to do. Enjoy your day x | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Biological women can be excluded from women only spaces despite being biological women. I literally just explained why. You will struggle to find an example where any of the exceptions would be applied to a Trans person except for the same reasons of violence/abuse. So they are treated exactly the same. My main qualification for my current employment concerns the protection of vulnerable groups. I need to know what the law actually is, not what I think it is or would like it to be. I also need to be fully acquainted with the Equality Act. A trans woman cannot be refused a service purely on her transgender status. An exception would attach for a different but mitigating reason only. I get paid for this you know so can debate it all day Thankfully, there are better things to do. Enjoy your day x". . I am a lawyer who deals with dissemination law so ditto. The point is trans women can be excluded purely because of their trans status if it's a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. An example might be a refuge where women are traumatised by mate bodied people. Biological women could not be excluded because they are biological women. Only if there was some other factor that made them a risk. Thats the difference. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Biological women can be excluded from women only spaces despite being biological women. I literally just explained why. You will struggle to find an example where any of the exceptions would be applied to a Trans person except for the same reasons of violence/abuse. So they are treated exactly the same. My main qualification for my current employment concerns the protection of vulnerable groups. I need to know what the law actually is, not what I think it is or would like it to be. I also need to be fully acquainted with the Equality Act. A trans woman cannot be refused a service purely on her transgender status. An exception would attach for a different but mitigating reason only. I get paid for this you know so can debate it all day Thankfully, there are better things to do. Enjoy your day x.
. I am a lawyer who deals with dissemination law so ditto.
The point is trans women can be excluded purely because of their trans status if it's a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. An example might be a refuge where women are traumatised by mate bodied people.
Biological women could not be excluded because they are biological women. Only if there was some other factor that made them a risk.
Thats the difference. "Post op they are not male bodied, so surely depends on stage of transition? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"From a legal standpoint? Not at all. Had a female passport and hospital identification number for years before op. I'd still have accessed gender appropriate services legally (and did so) despite what I had between my legs. Yet to encounter a service, business or organisation that sought to exclude me in over 5 years though." If this is in response to my question, then note my question is in context to previous statement re exclusion due to trauma re "male bodied". | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"From a legal standpoint? Not at all. Had a female passport and hospital identification number for years before op. I'd still have accessed gender appropriate services legally (and did so) despite what I had between my legs. Yet to encounter a service, business or organisation that sought to exclude me in over 5 years though. If this is in response to my question, then note my question is in context to previous statement re exclusion due to trauma re "male bodied". " That would be lawful, whilst excluding black women, say, because a woman had been attacked by a black man and was traumatised by black people would not be. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It's time to combine all sports, women need to stand on equal footings throughout society." Yeah that would solve everything. Unless you then get tokenism. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I have deliberately held back on this thread because : a. I am not well versed on Trans Issues. b. I am not well versed on Legal issues. c. I a not well versed on sporting issues. I am going to get a lot of shit for this from probably everyone, but here goes. The pace of science to allow an individual to change gender is faster than the legal system can move to recognise these changes. The legal system moves faster than sporting governing bodies who will have to ensure their rules allow "fair play" and will have to be compliant with the law. The ability for individuals to define themselves within the social construct of gender is outpacing everything. There is nothing stopping a sportsperson being genderfluid and identifying as anything from male to female according to how they feel at that moment in time. There is no mechanism within sports that are not gender neutral to accommodate that. Vinny Jones could self identify as female and start playing women's football. Without straying into the area of Trans rights, and this will piss people off... Sometimes personl sacrifices have to be made. Is it right that a person should be allowed to participate in a sport that would not be open to them because they want to? The good Dr is perfectly entitled to identify as female, act as a female, and does not need to transition to be regarded as female. But that does not give her the automatic right to access women's sport. Sometimes the rights of an individual cannot take presedence. " | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Post new Message to Thread |
| back to top |  |
