FabSwingers.com forum: Gender Recognition Act proposed reform

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

If you're wondering why there's such an upsurge in media hideousness towards trans people, (if you’ve noticed it that is - and I’m not meaning on Fab) it's because certain well-funded pressure groups (including the usual US-based right-wing religious types) are attempting to use trans as a wedge issue to divide LGBT - and, make no mistake, if they're successful in their objectives with T, they'll move on to the rest of us.

The more immediate catalyst, in the UK, has been the proposed governmental reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA). The proposed reform would make it easier (and cheaper) for trans people to change the sex of their birth certificate. That's all. It has no bearing on entitlement to medical or surgical treatments and it has no implications for, for example, the rights of men to enter protected women's spaces - that's all covered under a wholly separate piece of legislation, the Equality Act 2010, which is not currently up for reform.

The public consultation period ends in eight days' time, on 19/10/18, and that's why there's an orchestrated crescendo of scare stories in the mainstream media and TERFier parts of social media: they want to whip well-meaning people who know half the backstory to jump to “OMG WOMEN-ONLY SPACES UNDER THREAT” conclusions when, in fact, this is patently not the case - not from GRA reform, anyway.

If you consider yourself an ally to trans people, please read the consult questions and fill in - before the 19th - it’s on the GOV website. Yes, it's dry. Yes, it's a pain. It's also perhaps the single biggest thing you can do right now in terms of solidarity.

Thanks for reading.

Discuss however you’d like to...would be great if could be within forum rules and respectfully please.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

The factual story in today’s news doesn’t help.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I didn’t know this. Shall do that tomorrow.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"If you're wondering why there's such an upsurge in media hideousness towards trans people, (if you’ve noticed it that is - and I’m not meaning on Fab) it's because certain well-funded pressure groups (including the usual US-based right-wing religious types) are attempting to use trans as a wedge issue to divide LGBT - and, make no mistake, if they're successful in their objectives with T, they'll move on to the rest of us.

Thanks for reading.

Discuss however you’d like to...would be great if could be within forum rules and respectfully please. "

Could you avoid the scare mongering please. There are plenty of good left wing people who are concerned about the reactionary basis of current trans ideologies. (that gender is something fixed and innate rather than a social construct) and the threat self I'd poses for women's spaces.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

It's interesting to hear peoples' views and also upon, as a society, how our opinions can be readily shaped due to millions of people sourcing information from very powerful media outlets.

We're in interesting times, where changes of substantial proportions are under-way, for many areas of our lives (I'm not referring to LGBTQ etc people here, but for all people).

It's unsettling to me how unsavoury influences may be active, influencing for their own ends, eg other states, IT infrastructure being used etc

Thanks for posting op - it's easy for these consultation periods to be and done, whilst forgetting them, if you even knew they were active.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thanks for the post-OP

I couldnt help myself

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them. "

That was an horrific episode (note, I've not seen the news, just caught wind of it, so I'm fairly ignorant). I'm assuming it's in the news due to a legal outcome Steve - yet it's interesting, whether any of the media will have twisted the story somewhat, so as to garner anti-trans opinion.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them. "

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Hello, it’s simply a statement of my opinion, as your posts would be your opinion. I wasn’t playing top trumps on leftie status.You're absolutely entitled to your viewpoint and to invalidate mine as scaremongering, and I respect that. I believe my post is within the forum rules, so respectfully, I won’t bow to being told how to express it, thanks. I do note that you feel it’s scaremongering, and I’m sorry you don’t like that. It’s an issue I wanted to get attention on and I’ve expressed it how I’ve expressed it - please feel absolutely free to express yours and I certainly shan’t tell you how to and what you should or shouldn’t say.

Thanks.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Thanks for the post-OP

I couldnt help myself

That’s clever!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thanks for reading.

Discuss however you’d like to...would be great if could be within forum rules and respectfully please. "

Thanks for sharing. If I was a citizen of the UK, I would happily fill it in.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)"

I wonder if he will identify as a woman in the all male prison he’s going to?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

Thanks."

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"Thanks for the post-OP

I couldnt help myself

Damn! Much wittier than a sausage!

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)"

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White?

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White? "

We can't, and that's why it mustn't happen.

This has nothing to do with the left, it is at its core anti woman and anti feminist and must not be allowed to happen.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White?

We can't, and that's why it mustn't happen.

This has nothing to do with the left, it is at its core anti woman and anti feminist and must not be allowed to happen. "

My view entirely. It's all based on regressive gender stereotypes and magical thinking . I can't fathom how people on the left can support it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists. "

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

I’ve also simply responded by saying I’ve expressed my opinion as my opinion, and I’m at liberty to do so (within forum rules). I acknowledged your point, and I’m fine that you think it is scaremongering, and simply let you know that I choose to not agree to do what you ask. I wasn’t debating further, just acknowledging our disagreement. Thanks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White?

We can't, and that's why it mustn't happen.

This has nothing to do with the left, it is at its core anti woman and anti feminist and must not be allowed to happen. "

It does have something to do with a liberal agenda, women’s safety should always be the priority.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White?

We can't, and that's why it mustn't happen.

This has nothing to do with the left, it is at its core anti woman and anti feminist and must not be allowed to happen.

My view entirely. It's all based on regressive gender stereotypes and magical thinking . I can't fathom how people on the left can support it.

I have no problem with people self identifying, but if they wan't the legal protection/ramifications that come with it, then they must put their money where their mouth is and start to undergo transitionary surgery.

In much the same way as people can form relationships with whomever they choose, but if they want that relationship protected in law then they must marry/enter into a civil partnership.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White?

We can't, and that's why it mustn't happen.

This has nothing to do with the left, it is at its core anti woman and anti feminist and must not be allowed to happen.

It does have something to do with a liberal agenda, women’s safety should always be the priority. "

I wouldn't know anything about liberals or their agenda.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

Of course, and it is my view, which I am entitled to express, that yours is worryingly anti-female.

What happened to feminist solidarity?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

I wouldn't even say that the OPs agenda is a trans one, it is anti genuine trans folk at it's core.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

I wouldn't even say that the OPs agenda is a trans one, it is anti genuine trans folk at it's core. "

Indeed. I used. "trans agenda" as shorthand for the ideology that says people can someone who simply identifies as a woman falls into the same category as biological women.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

I see your point, now you’ve expressed it more fully there. You’ve every right to do that! Aha!!! I thought you were intending to say I wasn’t at liberty to make my post in the first place.

No problem. Absolutely feel free, I get you now - long day here!!

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White?

We can't, and that's why it mustn't happen.

This has nothing to do with the left, it is at its core anti woman and anti feminist and must not be allowed to happen.

My view entirely. It's all based on regressive gender stereotypes and magical thinking . I can't fathom how people on the left can support it.

In much the same way as people can form relationships with whomever they choose, but if they want that relationship protected in law then they must marry/enter into a civil partnership. "

The trans community has chosen to accept identification, no transition required, as the standard for membership. I think that's a terrible decision but hey ho. The real "put your money where your mouth" test would be to properly define which uses of women are references to gender and which are references to sex. There's no getting away from the fact that those terms have been used interchangeably for a long time. So to unpick them, the advocates of this should make clear which is which. They always dodge the question when asked on this forum which suggests to me that on some level, they know their ideology is bullshit.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White?

We can't, and that's why it mustn't happen.

This has nothing to do with the left, it is at its core anti woman and anti feminist and must not be allowed to happen.

My view entirely. It's all based on regressive gender stereotypes and magical thinking . I can't fathom how people on the left can support it.

In much the same way as people can form relationships with whomever they choose, but if they want that relationship protected in law then they must marry/enter into a civil partnership.

I am still waiting for a definition of woman that isn't either completely circular. (a woman is someone who feels like a woman) or replies on gender stereotypes. (a woman is someone how wears dresses and make up, likes pink and is nurturing).

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

There is this fascinating mind warp that those on the extremes do where they transfer their anger from the actual perpetrators of crime, to those who report of comment on it. So instead of it being Karen White's fault for exploiting the obvious loophole that they created with their policies, it's the fault of "media hideousness" and "well-funded, US-based right-wing religious groups" for daring to report it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people. "

It might if that was what was being proposed but it isn't.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

"In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people.

It might if that was what was being proposed but it isn't. "

No it's worse. Gender isn't on a birth certificate, sex is. So now we have to pretend that biological sex can be changed and that a person that was born one way, really wasn't. Pure insanity.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people.

It might if that was what was being proposed but it isn't. "

It is though. Read the OP.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people.

It might if that was what was being proposed but it isn't.

No it's worse. Gender isn't on a birth certificate, sex is. So now we have to pretend that biological sex can be changed and that a person that was born one way, really wasn't. Pure insanity."

Whether it's all a pretence or not (I say not) this is not something new that we now have to go along with. It has been possible to rectify a birth certificate for quite a few years,the only changes proposed are to make it easier (I doubt it will be cheaper). Note 'easier' .It is not proposed to allow peopke to just change on a whim.There are,and will be,criteria that have to be met.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

"In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people.

It might if that was what was being proposed but it isn't.

It is though. Read the OP."

Sex, sex, sex!!! It says sex not gender. Can anyone explain to me how a person can change their chromosomes or reproductive system? Anyone? I'm all ears...

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

"In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people.

It might if that was what was being proposed but it isn't.

No it's worse. Gender isn't on a birth certificate, sex is. So now we have to pretend that biological sex can be changed and that a person that was born one way, really wasn't. Pure insanity.

Ok you disagree that it's pretence. How does a person change their biological sex? I do understand gender change so no contest there. But since you just told me that you believe a person can change their sex, just give me a brief overview of how one can change their chromosomes and reproductive system?

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By *amanthajonestsTV/TS
over a year ago

Glasgow

"In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people.

It might if that was what was being proposed but it isn't.

It is though. Read the OP."

Nowhere in the consultation is it being proposed that gender can be changed at a whim. The consultation document specifically asks about retaining medical evidence provisions and if there are other measures that could be put in place to help act as safeguards. The reforms mainly seek to remove the need for transgender people to require to pay a faceless panel £140 for a decision that then allows their documents to be changed. That's all this has ever been about.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people.

It might if that was what was being proposed but it isn't.

It is though. Read the OP.

Sex, sex, sex!!! It says sex not gender. Can anyone explain to me how a person can change their chromosomes or reproductive system? Anyone? I'm all ears... "

Take a night off pal, get on a hot or not thread and leave the trans community alone for one evening, you’re obsessed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people.

It might if that was what was being proposed but it isn't.

No it's worse. Gender isn't on a birth certificate, sex is. So now we have to pretend that biological sex can be changed and that a person that was born one way, really wasn't. Pure insanity.

I have no idea how a person can change their chromosones,Ive never claimed to know that.

Ive also never claimed to be able to identify a persons chromosomes,can you?

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By *amanthajonestsTV/TS
over a year ago

Glasgow

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage...."

Good for you, staggeringly missing the point that a panel you never meet ultimately decides if you are Trans enough. And then you are charged for it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage...."

Were you born into that mortgage with no choice?

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

"In fact, I would say that allowing to change their genda on their birth certifcate at whim mocks trans people.

It might if that was what was being proposed but it isn't.

No it's worse. Gender isn't on a birth certificate, sex is. So now we have to pretend that biological sex can be changed and that a person that was born one way, really wasn't. Pure insanity.

I have no idea how a person can change their chromosones,Ive never claimed to know that.

Ive also never claimed to be able to identify a persons chromosomes,can you?"

Yes, very easily with a blood test.

You did claim that (implicitly). So either you are redefining the term 'biological sex' or you actually mean gender. I already agree you can change your gender. I don't really see what there is to disagree about?

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By *amanthajonestsTV/TS
over a year ago

Glasgow

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage....

Were you born into that mortgage with no choice?"

This!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage....

Good for you, staggeringly missing the point that a panel you never meet ultimately decides if you are Trans enough. And then you are charged for it. "

Staggeringly missed this point???
" The reforms mainly seek to remove the need for transgender people to require to pay a faceless panel £140 for a decision that then allows their documents to be changed. That's all this has ever been about. "

If all it’s about is the £140 then I stand by my comment

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage....

Were you born into that mortgage with no choice?"

Absolutely not. But surely people can’t be expecting to make changes as huge as this with no process involved? From what I can see it’s a doctor confirming things, proof of identity and a relatively small fee (assisted if on low income) which is then assessed and approved. Hardly seems lengthy or over complicated considering the change being made.

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By *amanthajonestsTV/TS
over a year ago

Glasgow

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage....

Good for you, staggeringly missing the point that a panel you never meet ultimately decides if you are Trans enough. And then you are charged for it.

Staggeringly missed this point??? The reforms mainly seek to remove the need for transgender people to require to pay a faceless panel £140 for a decision that then allows their documents to be changed. That's all this has ever been about.

If all it’s about is the £140 then I stand by my comment "

Well, it's never been about the hysteria generated by people with no experience of what it is to be Transgender. Read the actual consultation. I encourage you to respond to it. You'll find it expressly asks if the need for medical evidence should be retained. I said Yes when I completed it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage....

Good for you, staggeringly missing the point that a panel you never meet ultimately decides if you are Trans enough. And then you are charged for it. "

Who will decide? How will it work?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage....

Good for you, staggeringly missing the point that a panel you never meet ultimately decides if you are Trans enough. And then you are charged for it.

If all it’s about is the £140 then I stand by my comment

I have read it, and responded to it, and also said medical evidence should be retained. So what exactly is your issue with my comment???

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

Having looked at the documents, they are full of the lies that we have been discussing. I quote "trans people may feel that they are a different gender to the one that was recorded at birth". Their gender was never recorded at birth, their sex was. Almost unbelievable that this gets published on a government website.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Having looked at the documents, they are full of the lies that we have been discussing. I quote "trans people may feel that they are a different gender to the one that was recorded at birth". Their gender was never recorded at birth, their sex was. Almost unbelievable that this gets published on a government website. "

It’s important you complete the consultation then, so that your views are also heard.

Whilst I have a clear opinion, and disagree with you, I’m also keen that people use the process - it’s a consultation.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

It’s important you complete the consultation then, so that your views are also heard.

Whilst I have a clear opinion, and disagree with you, I’m also keen that people use the process - it’s a consultation. "

You don't disagree with me that the word used on birth certificates is 'sex' not 'gender'. I have emailed them to ask them why they published this misinformation. I very much doubt you disagree with me that biological sex cannot be changed.

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By *vcarolTV/TS
over a year ago

kilmarnockish

FWIW. I have been a TV since as long as I can remember. I was given medication at an early stage to ‘correct ´ any possibilities of an abnormal possibility.

Society is changing and we’re currently in a evolution of acceptance by the mainstream.

I care not for politics nor perception of law, this will take its course on both counts, and for the better to give rights it the transgendered.

The issue is to where TG starts, take more than a little debate to sort that out.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage....

Were you born into that mortgage with no choice?"

I think the cost is clouding the issue. I would have no objection to it costing less. My point is about the rigour in place.

If you felt that you had been born into the wrong gender, then you ought to have no problem beginning hormone therapy before you are legally allowed to transition.

Sadly, the vast majority of sexual assaults are committed by men. Therefore female spaces should be protected.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

It’s important you complete the consultation then, so that your views are also heard.

Whilst I have a clear opinion, and disagree with you, I’m also keen that people use the process - it’s a consultation.

Define biological sex?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can't we all just be what we want to be and not make too much fuss about it?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thank you OP.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage....

Were you born into that mortgage with no choice?

I think the cost is clouding the issue. I would have no objection to it costing less. My point is about the rigour in place.

If you felt that you had been born into the wrong gender, then you ought to have no problem beginning hormone therapy before you are legally allowed to transition.

Sadly, the vast majority of sexual assaults are committed by men. Therefore female spaces should be protected.

‘Single or same sex services exception’ re your final sentence.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It’s important you complete the consultation then, so that your views are also heard.

Whilst I have a clear opinion, and disagree with you, I’m also keen that people use the process - it’s a consultation.

Define biological sex?"

Something to do with chromosomes

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them. "
The story you're referring to is mainly a story about a failing prison system entirely neglecting to do any risk assessments....

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them. The story you're referring to is mainly a story about a failing prison system entirely neglecting to do any risk assessments...."

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

I wonder if he will identify as a woman in the all male prison he’s going to? "
If a proper risk assessment had been done the outcomes might have been different. Who knows where they will end up - an isolation unit sounds like a good idea while they get the help they need...

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White? "
How we identify abusers and predators is not a problem that's unique to the trans or queer community - the majority of abusers and predators self identify as cis straight people - but apparently we don't need to debate how we distinguish between cis straight people and predators, even though they commit the bulk of consent related crimes.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

It’s important you complete the consultation then, so that your views are also heard.

Whilst I have a clear opinion, and disagree with you, I’m also keen that people use the process - it’s a consultation.

Define biological sex?"

Biological sex is determined by a combination of chromosomes, reproductive system, gonads, hormones and genitalia. Key word being combination. A male and a female can reproduce assuming everything is functioning properly, a male and a male cannot. A female and a female cannot.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White? How we identify abusers and predators is not a problem that's unique to the trans or queer community - the majority of abusers and predators self identify as cis straight people - but apparently we don't need to debate how we distinguish between cis straight people and predators, even though they commit the bulk of consent related crimes."

Isn’t it just?

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

I wouldn't even say that the OPs agenda is a trans one, it is anti genuine trans folk at it's core. "
Help me out. Explain what gives you the power to define what is in the interests of genuine trans folk, whatever that means...

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

I wouldn't even say that the OPs agenda is a trans one, it is anti genuine trans folk at it's core. Help me out. Explain what gives you the power to define what is in the interests of genuine trans folk, whatever that means..."

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White? How we identify abusers and predators is not a problem that's unique to the trans or queer community - the majority of abusers and predators self identify as cis straight people - but apparently we don't need to debate how we distinguish between cis straight people and predators, even though they commit the bulk of consent related crimes.

Isn’t it just?"

So you are saying that we shouldn't protect women from cis male sexual assault as long as the male in question self identifies as female?

Scratch a liberal....

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected."
Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White? How we identify abusers and predators is not a problem that's unique to the trans or queer community - the majority of abusers and predators self identify as cis straight people - but apparently we don't need to debate how we distinguish between cis straight people and predators, even though they commit the bulk of consent related crimes.

Isn’t it just?

So you are saying that we shouldn't protect women from cis male sexual assault as long as the male in question self identifies as female?

Scratch a liberal...."

I’m not sure if you missed my earlier response re “single or same sex services exception”, I think there’s complexity to ensure safety and I’m not dismissing that, I am agreeing with the point being made that I responded to. I also think the safety of trans people is something important to protect too. Risk assessment and management are separate processes that are important in those contexts, and I raise this as someone all too aware through my work of the need in particular to have robust offender management, but I don’t see that as not possible to separate out from important points I want and have made in my response to this consultation. So, no - you can keep shorthanding what you think I’m saying and labelling me, but that’s not wholly accurate as to my view.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter"

How is the burden disproportionate?

Surely it's no burden at all if you identify as female to have free gene therapy on the health service in order to identify as female.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White? How we identify abusers and predators is not a problem that's unique to the trans or queer community - the majority of abusers and predators self identify as cis straight people - but apparently we don't need to debate how we distinguish between cis straight people and predators, even though they commit the bulk of consent related crimes.

Isn’t it just?

So you are saying that we shouldn't protect women from cis male sexual assault as long as the male in question self identifies as female?

Scratch a liberal....

It's not that complex - safety can reasonably be assured by preventing males from entering female safe spaces.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White? How we identify abusers and predators is not a problem that's unique to the trans or queer community - the majority of abusers and predators self identify as cis straight people - but apparently we don't need to debate how we distinguish between cis straight people and predators, even though they commit the bulk of consent related crimes.

Isn’t it just?

So you are saying that we shouldn't protect women from cis male sexual assault as long as the male in question self identifies as female?

Scratch a liberal....

It's not that complex - safety can reasonably be assured by preventing males from entering female safe spaces.

Have you actually read it?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter"

Also; do not attempt to tell me how offended or otherwise I am by assaults on women by men who do not identify as women.

Both are something that I find deeply concerning. There is sadly still a climate of failure to protect women from sexual assault and also not taking their fears of sexual assault seriously.

This legislation would further fail women.

It's sad that so many people are willing to sell feminism down the river over this.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It’s important you complete the consultation then, so that your views are also heard.

Whilst I have a clear opinion, and disagree with you, I’m also keen that people use the process - it’s a consultation.

Define biological sex?

Oversimplification here. Determining biological sex is not always this straight forward and chromosomes and genitalia do not always reflect the same expectation of biological sex. In some cases it is not possible to determine biological sex at all. And this is before we even approach the matter of individuals born with more than one set of genitalia. This is straying somewhat from the OP but the point is that although some people crave a world that is as simplistic as their views of it, it is considerably more complex.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *loswingersCouple
over a year ago

Gloucester

I think the issue here is that by allowing anyone to identify as male or female whenever they like , without any real testing or validating is open to abuse . And somewhat insulting to genuine pre and post op transgender people who go the whole way to address the mistakes that occurred when they were born into the wrong body . And these are the people who matter most of all when it comes to this debate . Imagine how hard it must be to have been born into the wrong body , and the traumatic times at school , growing up and the peer pressure . Often even your own family despair at what they perceive as just a phase .

I know if I was undergoing or had undergone surgery and hormones , I wouldn’t take too kindly to a part time cd or tv claiming that they were as much of a woman as I was , then when they get home to their wife and kids they become a guy again .

And there are cases where those identifying as women have been in women’s spaces and committed atrocious acts on women . Using their cocks which are clearly male when they perform these acts . Women and pre and post op tgs shouldn’t have to be in this position when in what should be safe spaces .

So I certainly won’t be aiding and abetting a bill to make it easier for any Tom , Dick , Harry or Sally to identify as whatever gender they fancy without first showing they are genuine .

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

It’s important you complete the consultation then, so that your views are also heard.

Whilst I have a clear opinion, and disagree with you, I’m also keen that people use the process - it’s a consultation.

Define biological sex?

It's a massive oversimplification, as is your elaboration of the definition.

This may or may not be why I asked the question.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

How is the burden disproportionate?

Surely it's no burden at all if you identify as female to have free gene therapy on the health service in order to identify as female. "
Free gene therapy? Did you really write that?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

Also; do not attempt to tell me how offended or otherwise I am by assaults on women by men who do not identify as women.

Both are something that I find deeply concerning. There is sadly still a climate of failure to protect women from sexual assault and also not taking their fears of sexual assault seriously.

This legislation would further fail women.

It's sad that so many people are willing to sell feminism down the river over this."

I’m not negating your points (I know you’re not replying to me in this comment) but you have told me what I think in your replies to me, by making assumptions of intent, whilst telling Carter not to do this to you here too, albeit he only said ‘seem’.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

How is the burden disproportionate?

Surely it's no burden at all if you identify as female to have free gene therapy on the health service in order to identify as female. Free gene therapy? Did you really write that?"

Yeah, why not? I'm of the opinion that hormone/gene therapy should be free on a properly funded health service.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The consultation also makes reference to those that may not be able to undergo medical transitions for health reasons too, so how do they prove their ‘genuine trans’ status?

It’s a minor point but one that falls outside of the most obvious argument people are making between - make medical steps to transition, you’re good and don’t make medical steps to transition then you’re liable to be tied in with those that are doing with malintent.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

It’s important you complete the consultation then, so that your views are also heard.

Whilst I have a clear opinion, and disagree with you, I’m also keen that people use the process - it’s a consultation.

Define biological sex?

Not at all, you're just making the case that there are intersex people which nobody denies. They exist and make up less than 0.1% of the population. It's nonsense to claim that a definition is invalid when it perfectly serves 99.9% of the intended sample. Not to mention, it's irrelevant to the fact that you cannot change biological sex. If an intersex person wants a change to their birth certificate, that is valid given the obvious rarity of their case and it's not in the same category as someone demanding their sex be changed because their gender has changed.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

Also; do not attempt to tell me how offended or otherwise I am by assaults on women by men who do not identify as women.

Both are something that I find deeply concerning. There is sadly still a climate of failure to protect women from sexual assault and also not taking their fears of sexual assault seriously.

This legislation would further fail women.

It's sad that so many people are willing to sell feminism down the river over this.

Your intent was implicit in the wording of your post.

I had neither mentioned, nor alluded to sexual assault by cis men on women in any of my posts.

In fact, since I mentioned my feminism in previous posts, it ought to be implicit that I find assaults on women deeply concerning.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

What's quite interesting on this thread is the universal condemnation of the idea by the left and the right.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

Also; do not attempt to tell me how offended or otherwise I am by assaults on women by men who do not identify as women.

Both are something that I find deeply concerning. There is sadly still a climate of failure to protect women from sexual assault and also not taking their fears of sexual assault seriously.

This legislation would further fail women.

It's sad that so many people are willing to sell feminism down the river over this.

Your intent was implicit in the wording of your post.

I had neither mentioned, nor alluded to sexual assault by cis men on women in any of my posts.

In fact, since I mentioned my feminism in previous posts, it ought to be implicit that I find assaults on women deeply concerning."

I haven’t said you haven’t, Jimi?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"What's quite interesting on this thread is the universal condemnation of the idea by the left and the right."

Universal, apart from those that haven’t condemned it.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

Also; do not attempt to tell me how offended or otherwise I am by assaults on women by men who do not identify as women.

Both are something that I find deeply concerning. There is sadly still a climate of failure to protect women from sexual assault and also not taking their fears of sexual assault seriously.

This legislation would further fail women.

It's sad that so many people are willing to sell feminism down the river over this."
Your watery metaphors are very amusing - which wave of feminism am I allegedly selling down the river? As if I care - I'm not a feminist, and as a queer man I'm hugely amused by the idea of a cishet man lecturing me about the idea of me selling feminists down the river...

The proposed changes to the GRA, to allow for self identification, are not exactly earth shattering. The flip side of them, the ire of TERFs and their supporters, is perplexing, to say the least.

Let me guve you an example, beloved of TERFs and their fanboys. Womens' toilets. Right now, no-one checks to see if allk the people who go into womens' toilets are female. What's more, there's no logical, reasonable or practical way of doing it. So if you pin your colours to the mast of 'no-one with a penis in women's toilets' how will you enforce it? I've asked this question many times, and no-one ever answers it. Instead, they then wibble on about women's refuges, and can never explain how refuges check whether anyone going to them has a penis or not. (Here's a clue - mainly, they don't.)

So help me out here. If a womens' toilet is a women only space worthy of protection, how do you plan to check what genitals everyone who uses it has?

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

"The consultation also makes reference to those that may not be able to undergo medical transitions for health reasons too, so how do they prove their ‘genuine trans’ status?

The only argument I saw of why trans people need to change their birth certificate was to stop them being outed by inconsistent paper work. Seems a very odd line of logic to start with, not sure I've ever need to use my birth certificate to prove anything that couldn't be proven by a passport or driving licence. In any event, if birth certificates can and are being changed to put factually incorrect information on. Why not just change the details recorded on the birth certificates? Why not just change 'sex' to 'gender' and problem solved. Or remove 'sex'.

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington

"What's quite interesting on this thread is the universal condemnation of the idea by the left and the right."
If you gave me advice about my left from my right, I'd check the letters on my wellies...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Right, I am off to bed. Whatever your opinion, and we are all absolutely entitled to disagree with each other - it would be wonderful to have it captured on the consultation, especially if it’s something you feel strongly about.

Night all x

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By *loswingersCouple
over a year ago

Gloucester

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

Also; do not attempt to tell me how offended or otherwise I am by assaults on women by men who do not identify as women.

Both are something that I find deeply concerning. There is sadly still a climate of failure to protect women from sexual assault and also not taking their fears of sexual assault seriously.

This legislation would further fail women.

It's sad that so many people are willing to sell feminism down the river over this.Your watery metaphors are very amusing - which wave of feminism am I allegedly selling down the river? As if I care - I'm not a feminist, and as a queer man I'm hugely amused by the idea of a cishet man lecturing me about the idea of me selling feminists down the river...

The proposed changes to the GRA, to allow for self identification, are not exactly earth shattering. The flip side of them, the ire of TERFs and their supporters, is perplexing, to say the least.

So help me out here. If a womens' toilet is a women only space worthy of protection, how do you plan to check what genitals everyone who uses it has?"

If all you have to do is self identify as a woman to go into a women’s toilet , then anyone with a motive will do so as there’s no reason not to .

If you should get caught in a woman’s toilet when you are clearly in there as a cis male with a motive , and using the self identification card , you should be dragged into court and made an example of damn quick . And no doubt the judge would say the law is an ass for making it so bloody easy for the potential perpetrator to do what he did .

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"What's quite interesting on this thread is the universal condemnation of the idea by the left and the right.

Universal, apart from those that haven’t condemned it.

I can only assume that they are liberal centrists. You don't strike me as being particularly left wing, you like to involve yourself with identity politics in the main.

There are at least two posters (including me) who are left wing and at least two others on the right.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

Also; do not attempt to tell me how offended or otherwise I am by assaults on women by men who do not identify as women.

Both are something that I find deeply concerning. There is sadly still a climate of failure to protect women from sexual assault and also not taking their fears of sexual assault seriously.

This legislation would further fail women.

The proposed changes to the GRA, to allow for self identification, are not exactly earth shattering. The flip side of them, the ire of TERFs and their supporters, is perplexing, to say the least.

So help me out here. If a womens' toilet is a women only space worthy of protection, how do you plan to check what genitals everyone who uses it has?"

Are you now telling me that a cis man cannot be a feminist?

Again the old phrase rings true - scratch a liberal...."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The consultation also makes reference to those that may not be able to undergo medical transitions for health reasons too, so how do they prove their ‘genuine trans’ status?

I suppose gender could not appear instead of sex on the birth certificate as gender is self-defining and a baby can’t express that. Instead, the doctor defines the sex and this is what is then recorded on the birth certificate, and this is purely on appearance of genitalia, nothing to do with chromosome or hormone testing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Gender on birth certificates shouldn't be changeable.

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

"It’s £140. I’ve paid more to apply for a mortgage....

Were you born into that mortgage with no choice?

There is absolutely no question or suggestion from transpeople of the system allowing casual issuing of a Gender Recognition Certificate at the drop of a hat. Unless you regard it as a trivial matter to have declared your gender publicly to family and friends, to be working and paid under your new name, to have applied for driving licence and passport in your corrected gender, to have all your bank and financial details corrected, your tax records, national health number, library card... Have i missed anything? Oh yes, in many cases have your face plastered on the front pages of the worst "news" papers because they think there is some public interest in telling the whole world your private life.

Other than that, no, it's going to be an absolutely trivial matter to re-declare your gender three times a day on a whim.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

"The consultation also makes reference to those that may not be able to undergo medical transitions for health reasons too, so how do they prove their ‘genuine trans’ status?

Not true. I knew my sons sex because of a blood test before he was born. Increasingly common, very easy, not expensive, available to anyone. You're just alluding to the fact that 99.9% of people will have genitalia matching the rest of the conditions for biological sex.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A link to the survey. https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004

Scroll down and look for the respond online button.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A link to the survey. https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004

Scroll down and look for the respond online button. "

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

Thanks for reading.

Discuss however you’d like to...would be great if could be within forum rules and respectfully please. "

Thank you so much. Getting sick of reading TERF's being aggressive and attacking trans women. And, it's not just trans women they want to oppress. After the fight against trans, they will move there objective's onto men to have them oppressed within society.

Getting sick of reading "Trans women will r@pe you" "Trans women are a danger to women". They seem to forgot trans women have sexualities and sexual and physical attractions like anyone else.

There logic is so harmful and the "facts" they are spreading are actually made up.

They are anti trans, anti male haters and I advise anyone whos a true ally to support our GRA reform and to tear down any anti trans leaflets, flyers etc you see

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

Also; do not attempt to tell me how offended or otherwise I am by assaults on women by men who do not identify as women.

Both are something that I find deeply concerning. There is sadly still a climate of failure to protect women from sexual assault and also not taking their fears of sexual assault seriously.

This legislation would further fail women.

The proposed changes to the GRA, to allow for self identification, are not exactly earth shattering. The flip side of them, the ire of TERFs and their supporters, is perplexing, to say the least.

So help me out here. If a womens' toilet is a women only space worthy of protection, how do you plan to check what genitals everyone who uses it has?

Are you now telling me that a cis man cannot be a feminist?

Again the old phrase rings true - scratch a liberal....""

TERF's logic is no man can be a feminist. It really angers me cos I fight for female rights, and yet, women oppress me? Here's me out here using my platform to speak up about how women are mistreated and yet, there's women trying to strip our rights as trans women away too aswell as tell men they are all ... cant say the words on here but you get the drift. I hate terfs.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

Thanks.

You were implying thst people against self ID were right wing religious types. That's factually incorrect and misrepresents the basis of the opposition.

You may also not be aware that "terf" is considered a slur against gender critical feminists.

I refer you to the word “including”, and I know what TERF means.

You're urging people to forward the trans agenda. I'm urging you not to misrepresent and slur people who oppose that agenda.

How come it's OK for you to ask people to do what you think is right and somehow wrong for me to ask you to do what I think is right?

My opinion is my own and I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

In this case, it's logic. Cis males are abusing the system to commit sexual assault. Genuine trans people should not have to deal with further negative stereotyping that will come as a result of this. Women's rights and safety should also be protected.Cis males commit the majority of sexual assaults. This is not disputed. Cis males who use subterfuge (by pretending to be female) commit a tiny minority of sexual assaults. You seem more upset by the latter rather then the former. In the process you appear determined to impose on those who wish to transition a disproportionate burden, in order to address your disproportionate focus on a tiny minority of sexual assaults.

If that's logic, I'm a fucking banana.

Regards

Carter

Also; do not attempt to tell me how offended or otherwise I am by assaults on women by men who do not identify as women.

Both are something that I find deeply concerning. There is sadly still a climate of failure to protect women from sexual assault and also not taking their fears of sexual assault seriously.

This legislation would further fail women.

The proposed changes to the GRA, to allow for self identification, are not exactly earth shattering. The flip side of them, the ire of TERFs and their supporters, is perplexing, to say the least.

So help me out here. If a womens' toilet is a women only space worthy of protection, how do you plan to check what genitals everyone who uses it has?

If all you have to do is self identify as a woman to go into a women’s toilet , then anyone with a motive will do so as there’s no reason not to .

anyone with a motive would do that regardless off a reform. Stop being so stupid.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White?

We can't, and that's why it mustn't happen.

This has nothing to do with the left, it is at its core anti woman and anti feminist and must not be allowed to happen.

My view entirely. It's all based on regressive gender stereotypes and magical thinking . I can't fathom how people on the left can support it.

In much the same way as people can form relationships with whomever they choose, but if they want that relationship protected in law then they must marry/enter into a civil partnership. "

Not every trans woman can afford surgery, thank you. In my eyes as long as there is proof to say this said person has been this said person for x amount of time,then yeah, we should have the right to get a GRC easier. Im still without a passport and drivers license all because of a GRC And ive been full time since 14 (am now 28) work it out.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

"There was a story today in a ‘newspaper’ about a guy who was transitioning to be a woman but had used that to gain access to vulnerable people and sexually assault them.

He wasn't transitioning, merely identified as a woman (when it suited him)

That's the point that worries people. If becoming legally a woman is just a matter of signing a form how do we distinguish between genuine trans people and predators like Karen White?

We can't, and that's why it mustn't happen.

This has nothing to do with the left, it is at its core anti woman and anti feminist and must not be allowed to happen.

It does have something to do with a liberal agenda, women’s safety should always be the priority. "

What about trans safety? W get r*ped. We get sexually assaulted. We get sexually objectified. We get murdered. WE get oppressed (Like now) etc etc....

And, to the other dude, calling the GRC "Anti Feminist". Excuse me, I am trans and a feminist. Don't be so quick to clash karen's whites actions on the whole of us!

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

IRELAND CHANGED SELF DECLARATION IN 2015. AND GUESS WHAT? NOT ONE REPORTED CRIME OF A "MAN SELF DECLARING HIMSELF AS FEMALE TO HARM A WOMAN" HAS EVER BEEN RECORDED. QUIT WITH THE NONSENSE.

Male, Female. Bi, Straight, Lesbian, Gay, Trans. Harm in ALL walks of life happen regardless. No man is going to go through the hassle to obtain medical diagnosis to say he is trans. To then pay for his self declaration. To then order ID. To then go and harm women in public places. What kind of nonsense do you all believe?

If a man has a motive to harm women, HE WILL DO SO regardless.

End the stupidity. This is about REAL Trans women like myself who FIGHT just to be who we are. We do not need this bullshit daily.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

Well that escalated...

I think a lot of the issues here arise because of a confusion between sex and gender.

"sex " indicates the physical characteristics connected with one's role in the reproductive process. Mammals are sexually dimorophic. There are males and females. Except for a tiny minority, everyone is born. (not assigned) either male or female. This cannot be changed. You can have surgey to give you physical characteristics approximate to the other sex, but a male cannot become a female and vice versa.

"gender" is the set of social roles attached to the two sexes. These are socially defined and can and do change. As a trivial example, wearing trousers used to be solely a male gender marker, not any more.

Gender roles can also be changed on an individual basis. Wearing skirts is a social marker of the female sex, but males can wear them too.

The traditional left wing view used to be that fixed gender roles were oppressive constructs that limited people's self expression. The problem for me with current trans ideology is that it says that performances of these roles is somehow innate and that if you want to perform the gender roles associated with the female sex that makes you a woman.

It also says everyone has a gender identity. I don't. I have a sex, but I do not have any innate sense of gender separate from my sex and I would consider any such sense oppressive limiting, as it does, my self expression.

I say that true liberation and freedom arises when people can look how they like, do what they like and love who they like without feeling the need to fit into the gender strait jacket.

Thus on a fundamental basis, I can't accept trans ideology. I accept some people have a strong internal sense of being a sex incompatible with their actual physical sex. I will respect that, just as I would respect someone's belief they have a personal relationship with God. What I can't do is personally accept an ideology which to me is incompatible with material reality, whether the ideology is about God or sex.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Thanks for sharing this.

I have no doubt there is genuine concern mixed up among the more ludicrous scare stories.

Trans men and women already use spaces reserved for their acquired gender, so nothing will change in that sense.

Someone who is inclined towards sexual offences will find easier ways to commit wrongdoing than going to the trouble of legally changing the sex marker on their birth certificate.

That said, I do think there needs to be a threshold, if only to provide reassurance to others.

At present, I understand the threshold in effect is a 24/7 lifestyle validated by professionals.

It is a difficult judgement about where the threshold might rest in the future.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"IRELAND CHANGED SELF DECLARATION IN 2015. AND GUESS WHAT? NOT ONE REPORTED CRIME OF A "MAN SELF DECLARING HIMSELF AS FEMALE TO HARM A WOMAN" HAS EVER BEEN RECORDED. QUIT WITH THE NONSENSE.

If a man has a motive to harm women, HE WILL DO SO regardless.

End the stupidity. This is about REAL Trans women like myself who FIGHT just to be who we are. We do not need this bullshit daily."

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

[Removed by poster at 12/10/18 06:25:11]

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"Well that escalated...

I think a lot of the issues here arise because of a confusion between sex and gender.

Gender roles can also be changed on an individual basis. Wearing skirts is a social marker of the female sex, but males can wear them too.

I say that true liberation and freedom arises when people can look how they like, do what they like and love who they like without feeling the need to fit into the gender strait jacket.

This.

Although it's dioecous not dimorphic.

Yours,

A pedant.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

I don't believe reassignment surgical procedures should be free, while some cancer, and other life saving treatments are deemed too expensive.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"I don't believe reassignment surgical procedures should be free, while some cancer, and other life saving treatments are deemed too expensive. "

Surgical reassignment is carried out when clinicians deem it to be life-saving, i.e. the patient is so torn by dysphoria that the alternative is too painful for that person to bear.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"I don't believe reassignment surgical procedures should be free, while some cancer, and other life saving treatments are deemed too expensive.

Surgical reassignment is carried out when clinicians deem it to be life-saving, i.e. the patient is so torn by dysphoria that the alternative is too painful for that person to bear."

I'd still rather that money went towards towards expensive cancer etc treatment.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't believe reassignment surgical procedures should be free, while some cancer, and other life saving treatments are deemed too expensive. "

So a life threatening cancer brought on by a lifestyle choice takes priority over a life threatening dismorphia?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As for terfs;

It took male feminists in parliament to vote to give women the public vote.

GICs are not anti feminist. They assist trans men as well as trans women. They help people regardless of birth assigned gender to fulfil themselves. Feminism is an equal opportunity movement. Not a women get everything movement.

And as for them wanting trans out of the lgbt, it was ‘founded’ by a trans woman who fought for everyone’s rights to be treated equally regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The consultation also makes reference to those that may not be able to undergo medical transitions for health reasons too, so how do they prove their ‘genuine trans’ status?

Yes, I used that test too. But they are certainly not infallible and they are not used to provide a legal categorisation for the birth certificate.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"I don't believe reassignment surgical procedures should be free, while some cancer, and other life saving treatments are deemed too expensive.

Surgical reassignment is carried out when clinicians deem it to be life-saving, i.e. the patient is so torn by dysphoria that the alternative is too painful for that person to bear.

I'd still rather that money went towards towards expensive cancer etc treatment. "

It should not be an either or.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

"As for terfs;

It took male feminists in parliament to vote to give women the public vote.

And as for them wanting trans out of the lgbt, it was ‘founded’ by a trans woman who fought for everyone’s rights to be treated equally regardless of gender or sexual orientation. "

What’s a GIC?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As for terfs;

It took male feminists in parliament to vote to give women the public vote.

And as for them wanting trans out of the lgbt, it was ‘founded’ by a trans woman who fought for everyone’s rights to be treated equally regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

What’s a GIC?

It’s either Guaranteed Investment Certificate or Gender Identity Clinic, I’m guessing the latter.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

"As for terfs;

It took male feminists in parliament to vote to give women the public vote.

And as for them wanting trans out of the lgbt, it was ‘founded’ by a trans woman who fought for everyone’s rights to be treated equally regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

What’s a GIC?

It’s either Guaranteed Investment Certificate or Gender Identity Clinic, I’m guessing the latter. "

Ty mate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A large number of non-trans people on here seem to have strong feelings about how trans people should be able to define themselves.

Those people treating the gender issue as if it is just a philosophical topic for a debate don’t have to deal with the day to day realities of having a legally recorded sex that does not equate with their sense of their gender.

Instead of playing with questions of semantics how about asking about the negative or positive impacts on people’s lives. This will massively improve the quality of living for hundreds of people.

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By *vcarolTV/TS
over a year ago

kilmarnockish

I notice by far and away the majority of debate on this thread comes from non TG.

This will be the same whatever happens in law, and then in society, the minority is ruled by the majority.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 12/10/18 08:29:29]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I notice by far and away the majority of debate on this thread comes from non TG.

This will be the same whatever happens in law, and then in society, the minority is ruled by the majority.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 12/10/18 08:31:44]

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

"The consultation also makes reference to those that may not be able to undergo medical transitions for health reasons too, so how do they prove their ‘genuine trans’ status?

Yes, I used that test too. But they are certainly not infallible and they are not used to provide a legal categorisation for the birth certificate. "

They are 99% effective, the 1% mainly being spoilt tests. Anyway, the problem with your statement is like the problem with the consultation documents, it seems like you're trying to imply there's something arbitrary about how we determine biological sex. Like "oh that's just the doctors opinion". It's not an opinion other than in the extremely rare case of intersex people. I'm still waiting for anyone to explain how biological sex can change.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"As for terfs;

It took male feminists in parliament to vote to give women the public vote.

And as for them wanting trans out of the lgbt, it was ‘founded’ by a trans woman who fought for everyone’s rights to be treated equally regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

What’s a GIC?

It’s either Guaranteed Investment Certificate or Gender Identity Clinic, I’m guessing the latter.

Ty mate. "

I think it may actually have been a typo for GRC - gender recognition certificate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists." Transgenderism is a natural phenomenon that has existed since long before before even christianity was invented. Transwomen have been using "women's spaces" in the UK for at least the last 60 years without any issues even before equality legislation.

Secondly, every transgender person has self-identified before going through a rigorous process of psych evaluation just to have their right to exist recognised. Self ID is about reforming the onerous an expensive form filling exercise currently required. No-one will be able to change birth certificates just by asking, there will remain a process which has to be satisfied.

And finally, how many of those left wing people you mention were part of the feminist terror group who firebombed sex shops in the 80s?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I notice by far and away the majority of debate on this thread comes from non TG.

This will be the same whatever happens in law, and then in society, the minority is ruled by the majority.

This

It’s also worth pointing out that the number of transitioning or likely to transition people are extremely few in number. Most tv/ts on here, for instance, are actually tv/cd. The change in the law that will lessen the barriers to a gender recognition certificate and birth certificate change shouldn’t really affect them.

I filled in the survey last night and confirmed that I believe that we should live ‘in role’ for at least two years as I feel it takes time to adjust. Socially transition and straighten out some of the twists in our heads brought in by trying to present as the wrong gender for so long.

I also think a diagnosis of dismorphia is reasonable to be a requirement. They are easy enough to get. I think to do this you have to be willing to stand up and be seen even if it is a tad uncomfortable.

I don’t believe we should have to have our spouses permission. Many of us lose our relationships. To have to get permission from an estranged spouse seems madness.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

"IRELAND CHANGED SELF DECLARATION IN 2015. AND GUESS WHAT? NOT ONE REPORTED CRIME OF A "MAN SELF DECLARING HIMSELF AS FEMALE TO HARM A WOMAN" HAS EVER BEEN RECORDED. QUIT WITH THE NONSENSE.

If a man has a motive to harm women, HE WILL DO SO regardless.

End the stupidity. This is about REAL Trans women like myself who FIGHT just to be who we are. We do not need this bullshit daily.

Thanks xxx

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

"I notice by far and away the majority of debate on this thread comes from non TG.

This will be the same whatever happens in law, and then in society, the minority is ruled by the majority.

This

I don’t believe we should have to have our spouses permission. Many of us lose our relationships. To have to get permission from an estranged spouse seems madness. "

TV's are men who dress. They have no desire to transition. The options should be TS/TG and TV/CD on here but the site mods wont do it.

I'm glad you have a brain cell. I do agree some proof needs to be there still and I am voting for a 6-14 month requirement but at the moment, so much is required. I Can't even get a passport or drivers license cos I self prescribe and medicate my HRT As the NHS won't place me on the gender clinic due to a stupid GP. This Reform will make it easier for girls like myself who are finding it hard to live a normal life with the right ID.

It's always cis people trying to strip the rights away from Trans people. They don't understand our struggles yet, think its okay to try make our lives even harder. Thankfully, I have a statement being read out in parliament at the hearing. Let's hope it makes a difference

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

And finally, how many of those left wing people you mention were part of the feminist terror group who firebombed sex shops in the 80s?"

Amen Girl! 333

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"I don't believe reassignment surgical procedures should be free, while some cancer, and other life saving treatments are deemed too expensive.

So a life threatening cancer brought on by a lifestyle choice takes priority over a life threatening dismorphia? "

Do you think it should take precedence over treatment of type 2 diabetes brought on by an unhealthy lifestyle for instance? That would free up alot of cash! I could probably get behind you on that.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

"A large number of non-trans people on here seem to have strong feelings about how trans people should be able to define themselves.

Instead of playing with questions of semantics how about asking about the negative or positive impacts on people’s lives. This will massively improve the quality of living for hundreds of people.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists." "

There clearly is because scientifically it is impossible to change your sex. So when people are on here demanding the sex on the birth certificate be changed, they are demanding the government deny objective reality. By all means campaign to remove sex fron birth certificates or change the wording to gender, neither would upset me. But the denial of objective reality is pure ideology.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

Writing things in capital letters does not increased the validity of the statement being made. Objective truth and reality do concern me. When this madness started is irrelevant. The fact that you don't care about such intellectual dishonesty is quite telling and why nobody should support your ideology.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

You sound like a TERF. What we do with our lives and body is none of your damn business. Why you so obsessed with what we do? It's nothing to do with you and never will be. Take your 1942 ideology and stick it where the sun don't shine. Life is about being happy. We have one shot at this if you weren't too sure. I'm living my life authentically. Your stupid views ain't going to make me wake up and be trans-ridden, so stop fooling yourself.

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By *xLedZepxx2Man
over a year ago

Didcot

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

Not sure how, the Lib Dems didn't exist in 1979, the Liberal Party did exist however they were less relevant than the Lib Dems are today

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

The person stating scientific facts is the one with "stupid views" as opposed to the person denying basic facts of biology. Stop being a narcissist and expecting the world world to mould reality around your problems. Enter the world of debate and compromise. If you don't like being outed by a birth certificate then it's the birth certificate that needs to change, not the entire field of biology.

PS: Great pictures, very nice

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

May I ask what is it you're frightened of being outed to, if someone sees your original birth certificate?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to. "

When biologists have found links in the brain and gender mark up, it becomes a discussion that it isn't a choice. Why would you choose a life where you're constantly segregated, outcasted, murdered, attacked, disowned? Think hard on that. We didn't choose who we are just like you didn't. A bit of research, you';ll have a gateway to alot of useful resources and scientific analysts that debunked the idea that it was a mental health along time ago. The world health organization even have it listed as a defect now thanks to biologists.

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By *aturisteve69Man
over a year ago

Frodsham

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

Well said, why people can’t just live and let live is beyond me!

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

May I ask what is it you're frightened of being outed to, if someone sees your original birth certificate? "

Mine's not about being outted. The reason why I need the reform is because since 14 GP's havent took my requests to transition seriously. I'm now 28. Self medicated - very dangerous - trying to live. I have no passport or ID for that matter, because the current requirements require alot I can't get - including a GRC. The reform will make it easier for me to finally be able to declare myself as Trans with the evidence I do have which then will result in me finally being able to get a GRC to get ID. It's not just about the birth cert. I couldn't care about my B.C. I just want ID to travel. I've tried for years and never been successful

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

May I ask what is it you're frightened of being outed to, if someone sees your original birth certificate?

This is why we need the reform. There's MANY Voices out there and many different reasons to why we need a reform. The elder trans generation are feared of being outted, but the younger just want to blend in and have the same rights as anyone else without being asked a bunch of different questions and being told to "prove" something to get ID. Even with the proof some of us withhold, you're then told "Sorry, we need more proof". The reform is going to make our lives easier for the better.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

You're misunderstanding. I'm not denying the reality that some people feel intense mental distress at their sexed bodies. I am merely making the point that people who feel that do not then become members of the opposite sex.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

May I ask what is it you're frightened of being outed to, if someone sees your original birth certificate?

I was reading the reason why the Government are bringing in these reforms and it seems the right thing to do, as many people are finding it so difficult to do they stop trying.

As you have stated, it has a big impact on your life.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

May I ask what is it you're frightened of being outed to, if someone sees your original birth certificate?

Getting hold of a GRC will also mean I can finally go post op - something i've wanted to do since 19. So please listen to our voices instead of just jumping on a bandwagon. There's many different reasons to why we want a reform.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thanks for reading.

Discuss however you’d like to...would be great if could be within forum rules and respectfully please. "

Very happy to support this. Seems to be a bizarre agenda on the forum again to twist this to get an argument.

If all people can say against it is that some people may take advantage to take advantage of other people, yes they might.

It doesn't make the change wrong.

And the way to guard against that is for the professionals to carry on doing their jobs properly.

All sorts of perverts and weirdos take advantage of all sorts of things to achieve their goals. It doesn't mean the vast majority of innocents should be punished or disadvantaged.

The ways to stop this happening haven't changed, good interview skills, gut feel, background and reference checks and a bit of luck.

Some ridiculous arguments in here as ever. The excuses are like reading the express and mail combined.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

That isn't the issue here though, it's about being recognised officially as the gender they are, or are going to be, transitioning to.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

Ohhh I get you now. Yeah, I agree. Obviously, there is multiple different things that doesn't relate fully to a male, but neither female. Hence the term "Trans" was made. I don't go around saying I'm a real woman - because I'm not. I am, however, a trans woman. I Have lived as a woman since 13, on blockers by 16, somost of my life hasn't been lived as a "man". I think I hhold the right to say im female at least. I just don't go around claiming I'm a woman, especially those who have lived their life as males upto 40+ and now claim they're real women (That does anger me tbh), as I am well aware I am a trans woman - the acronym was to separate the differences between the two and I will continue to use that.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

That isn't the issue here though, it's about being recognised officially as the gender they are, or are going to be, transitioning to.

By changing a document that refers to sex, not gender. Which paradoxically would stop them being a trans person. Since a trans person is someone whose gender doesn't match their sex. If they go back and change their sex, then their gender would match their sex and they'd no longer be trans. By definition.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

May I ask what is it you're frightened of being outed to, if someone sees your original birth certificate?

I was reading the reason why the Government are bringing in these reforms and it seems the right thing to do, as many people are finding it so difficult to do they stop trying.

As you have stated, it has a big impact on your life.

I've had two suicide attempts. My last being last december cos I was so fed up of constantly being opressed and having my rights stripped away. All I want to do is live. I want my life to be easier so I can travel and explore. I am stuck in a bedroom, outcasted from the world pretty much daily. People are more worried about someone taking advantage of the reform (hasn't ever happened in any country that have self declaration..fact) yet, no-one cares about how many young trans lives are affected at current. So many cis people behold this ideology - I'll accept your gender when you're transitioned. Yet the same people are trying to fight against the reform - something that will give us easier access to be able to transition fully. Where is the logic?

Fighting day in and day out just to live a normal life for something you cannot change is tiring. PEople need to listen to the younger generation more as we are the voices for the future.

Thank you for standing by us. Much love! xxx

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

May I ask what is it you're frightened of being outed to, if someone sees your original birth certificate?

I was reading the reason why the Government are bringing in these reforms and it seems the right thing to do, as many people are finding it so difficult to do they stop trying.

As you have stated, it has a big impact on your life.

Fighting day in and day out just to live a normal life for something you cannot change is tiring. PEople need to listen to the younger generation more as we are the voices for the future.

Thank you for standing by us. Much love! xxx"

They must hink going post op is as easy as a click of a fingers, but because it has massive biological changes in the brain and cell, you require...well, well, well...

* 1 x diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria

* 1 x proof of GRC

* 1 X Authorization letter from the courts

GRC is needed in pretty much alot of trans lives. What they don't understand is, what about people like myself who can't get one at current because of a broken NHS?

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

That isn't the issue here though, it's about being recognised officially as the gender they are, or are going to be, transitioning to.

Whereas, I want mine to say female but it'll never take the endless fight I've had to endure being Trans. Trans will and always will be apart of a trans person whether they wish to accept that or not. Having female on my ID will not shun that. It'll just make my life a hell lot easier

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

Thanks for reading.

Discuss however you’d like to...would be great if could be within forum rules and respectfully please.

Very happy to support this. Seems to be a bizarre agenda on the forum again to twist this to get an argument.

If all people can say against it is that some people may take advantage to take advantage of other people, yes they might.

It doesn't make the change wrong.

And the way to guard against that is for the professionals to carry on doing their jobs properly.

All sorts of perverts and weirdos take advantage of all sorts of things to achieve their goals. It doesn't mean the vast majority of innocents should be punished or disadvantaged.

The ways to stop this happening haven't changed, good interview skills, gut feel, background and reference checks and a bit of luck.

Some ridiculous arguments in here as ever. The excuses are like reading the express and mail combined. "

Thank you for standing by us

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

We'll it seems we agree them. :_)

The danger as I see with self ID is that literally anyone can become legally the other sex just by signing a form.

If there are difficulties for genuine people like you that's something to be discussed. However, I can't see that a procedure that easily be exploited by predators and chancers is the answer.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

We'll it seems we agree them. :_)

The danger as I see with self ID is that literally anyone can become legally the other sex just by signing a form.

If there are difficulties for genuine people like you that's something to be discussed. However, I can't see that a procedure that easily be exploited by predators and chancers is the answer. "

A) It will not be as simple as you're thinking

B ) Any one with a motive to harm people - will harm people regardless

C) All the countries with a self declaration system have never once had a reported case of anyone declaring themselves another gender to harm other people.

Stop focusing on the worst and maybe start listening to the voices that need the reform like my points above.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

May I ask what is it you're frightened of being outed to, if someone sees your original birth certificate?

I was reading the reason why the Government are bringing in these reforms and it seems the right thing to do, as many people are finding it so difficult to do they stop trying.

As you have stated, it has a big impact on your life.

Fighting day in and day out just to live a normal life for something you cannot change is tiring. PEople need to listen to the younger generation more as we are the voices for the future.

Thank you for standing by us. Much love! xxx

They must hink going post op is as easy as a click of a fingers, but because it has massive biological changes in the brain and cell, you require...well, well, well...

* 1 x diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria

* 1 x proof of GRC

* 1 X Authorization letter from the courts

GRC is needed in pretty much alot of trans lives. What they don't understand is, what about people like myself who can't get one at current because of a broken NHS?"

If the proposed law went through, I become legally a woman by just signing a form and with no changes whatsoever in my lifestyle.

As a genuine trans person, surely you wouldn't want a system to be open to abuse in that way? Surely there has to be some gatekeeping?

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

That isn't the issue here though, it's about being recognised officially as the gender they are, or are going to be, transitioning to.

I don't have any problem with making your life easier. I actually have exactly the same opinion on this matter as kinkylondonpeople who you said you agreed with, but you called me a TERF. Trans people are probably the only group left in society who even know where their birth certificate is, I don't recall ever seeing mine. All I'm saying is to change the certificate or the wording of it or the process of identification, by all means ditch the £140. Just don't implicitly or explicitly change the definition of biological sex and be honest about which references are to sex and which are to gender. I have no problem with people changing their gender. I also think it's quite shocking that even 1, let alone 14 GPs would deny your case. What answer do they give?

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

We'll it seems we agree them. :_)

The danger as I see with self ID is that literally anyone can become legally the other sex just by signing a form.

If there are difficulties for genuine people like you that's something to be discussed. However, I can't see that a procedure that easily be exploited by predators and chancers is the answer. "

I do fully understand your worries though and many trans woman fear it too. We do get sexually assaulted etc just as much. We don't want fakes around women's spaces who are going to harm us just as much as any other woman. We value our lives lol

I do get your worries but it's the worst case scenario hun. I can assure you anyone with a motive won't be going through such a loophole just to get access to us when they can do that on the streets at current. GEt my point?

Sorry, I am straight to the point with topics like that, I don't mean to come off as blunt lol

All I want is our voices to be heard cos the younger gen have different opinions to the older gen.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

No one is denying you or anyone else the right to live your life how you choose or to believe what you choose.

What we do object to is statements that are pure unprovable theological statements being pushed as "truth".

"trans women are women" is on the same level as "God exists". You can believe them if you like, but it's perfectly reasonable and respectable not to.

We'll it seems we agree them. :_)

The danger as I see with self ID is that literally anyone can become legally the other sex just by signing a form.

If there are difficulties for genuine people like you that's something to be discussed. However, I can't see that a procedure that easily be exploited by predators and chancers is the answer.

A) It will not be as simple as you're thinking

B ) Any one with a motive to harm people - will harm people regardless

C) All the countries with a self declaration system have never once had a reported case of anyone declaring themselves another gender to harm other people.

Stop focusing on the worst and maybe start listening to the voices that need the reform like my points above. "

Well we have had Karen White. He wouldn't have committed his latest crimes had he not been allowed in a woman's prison. We have also had someone in Ireland arguing that as they committed a crime in their male ID and as they are now a woman they can't be prosecuted.

I agree it's unlikely to be a major problem, but why create even minor problems? If current gatekeeping is too rigorous, let's look at that and make it less stringent.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

As a genuine trans person, surely you wouldn't want a system to be open to abuse in that way? Surely there has to be some gatekeeping? "

As I say, I value my life. I have been a victim myself. I won't say of which as it's no one's business, but I have been a victim. Did it happen in a women's space? No, it didn't.

Yes, I am worried but I go on fact's. No country that has a self declaration system has ever had someone falsely claim their gender to harm another person.

It is a scaremonger created by TERF's to make people fear Trans Women. We are not to be feared. It's as simple as that. We get harassed, assaulted, R@ped etc just as much and we would hate for that to happen to us, not alone any other woman.

Now, in regards to safekeeping, I have wrote a statement which Baroness Williams is reading out at the hearing and I have stated I want a protocol to still be in place. Whether that be a diagnosis and proof of living as a woman eg deed poll, letters, physical then after 6 - 14 months, the person would be able to access the self declaration.

I changed my name and gender in 2009 when I was 19 - it's still not enough proof to be able to obtain any ID. This is uncalled for. It's making my life difficult and personally, there is many trans girls out there facing the same issue. We need this reform tomake our lives easier - forget the abusing bullshit. As I said, anyone with a motive will harm another person regardless.

Think about the people who need this reform most. It's not going to be as easy as singing a piece of paper. You will still need a diagnosis I can assure you that. What man is going to go through all that hassle? Men use women's toilets today to change their daughters etc. Men are in women's changing rooms. Men are in women's spaces everyday. Stop believing propaganda, that is all I'm asking.

This whole argument is America's bathroom bill all over again. And, look, the same argument was raised for that and look, noone got harmed. *Facepalms*

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The consultation also makes reference to those that may not be able to undergo medical transitions for health reasons too, so how do they prove their ‘genuine trans’ status?

Yes, I used that test too. But they are certainly not infallible and they are not used to provide a legal categorisation for the birth certificate.

No I’m not. I am saying that the birth certificate doesn’t specify or record biological sex and gender is not able to be recorded at birth.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I notice by far and away the majority of debate on this thread comes from non TG.

This will be the same whatever happens in law, and then in society, the minority is ruled by the majority.

This

I don’t believe we should have to have our spouses permission. Many of us lose our relationships. To have to get permission from an estranged spouse seems madness.

TV's are men who dress. They have no desire to transition. The options should be TS/TG and TV/CD on here but the site mods wont do it.

Lol. Thanks for the acknowledgment of my brain cell. I do know a little about this subject as I do have an interest in it funnily enough.

Transvestites aren’t by definition, all men btw. The definition isn’t gender specific.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't believe reassignment surgical procedures should be free, while some cancer, and other life saving treatments are deemed too expensive.

So a life threatening cancer brought on by a lifestyle choice takes priority over a life threatening dismorphia?

Do you think it should take precedence over treatment of type 2 diabetes brought on by an unhealthy lifestyle for instance? That would free up alot of cash! I could probably get behind you on that.

I’ll leave the prioritising of nhs care and money debate for a thread on that subject.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"I don't believe reassignment surgical procedures should be free, while some cancer, and other life saving treatments are deemed too expensive.

So a life threatening cancer brought on by a lifestyle choice takes priority over a life threatening dismorphia?

Do you think it should take precedence over treatment of type 2 diabetes brought on by an unhealthy lifestyle for instance? That would free up alot of cash! I could probably get behind you on that.

I’ll leave the prioritising of nhs care and money debate for a thread on that subject.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

As a genuine trans person, surely you wouldn't want a system to be open to abuse in that way? Surely there has to be some gatekeeping?

As I say, I value my life. I have been a victim myself. I won't say of which as it's no one's business, but I have been a victim. Did it happen in a women's space? No, it didn't.

Yes, I am worried but I go on fact's. No country that has a self declaration system has ever had someone falsely claim their gender to harm another person.

This whole argument is America's bathroom bill all over again. And, look, the same argument was raised for that and look, noone got harmed. *Facepalms*"

We agree with each other. He seems you want some gatekeeping too.

That's the problem with this debate. Those of us who are quite sincere in wanting genuine trans people to be able to live safe and dignified lives, but who don't sign up to the current trans theory and who have doubts about self ID are shouted down as terfs and transphobes.

Reasonable good faith discussion is always best.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

"The consultation also makes reference to those that may not be able to undergo medical transitions for health reasons too, so how do they prove their ‘genuine trans’ status?

Yes, I used that test too. But they are certainly not infallible and they are not used to provide a legal categorisation for the birth certificate.

No I’m not. I am saying that the birth certificate doesn’t specify or record biological sex and gender is not able to be recorded at birth. "

How on earth can you claim that a birth certificate doesn't specify or record sex? Have you seen one? What do you think the box with the title "sex" is referring to?

Or course gender could be stated at birth. 99.7% of people have a gender that matches their sex. I have no problem with people changing their gender later if they think it doesn't match.

Honestly I just can't do the mental gymnastics to follow the logic of people that willfully ignore correlations of 0.99

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

I agree it's unlikely to be a major problem, but why create even minor problems? If current gatekeeping is too rigorous, let's look at that and make it less stringent. "

Karen White was not Trans. He was a Transvestite (Male in his mugshot) somehow with a female passport (Baffles me). Again, why pin the blame on all Trans people for that? How about looking at the bigger picture.

Karen white was prosecuted for Indecent Exposure, Indecency to a child, Indecency in public, Two accounts of r*pe to women with two more counts inside a womans prison.

Let's break this down, Female Passport? - Okay.

Is this person a harm to women? - In this case, a massive YES

Is this person going to cause harm to another woman if placed on a woman's wing - again, YES.

G4S and the Prison service are to blame for this, NOT TRANS WOMEN. Karen should have been sent to a security confinement prison away from other inmates. He was already being sentenced for being a risk to women, he should never have been able to obtain access to a women's wing regardless.

My friend who was fully transitioned at 24 was a sent to a MALES PRISON for assault on a male yet, a 50 year old who claim's hes a woman was sent to a womens who was a risk to women to begin with. This is my argument today. The younger trans are treated so much more harshly to the elder.

Karen should never have been placed on a main wing. It's as simple as that. That's not the fault of us. That's the fault of G4S

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

First of all there is no such thing as 'trans ideology that is a fictional construct of extremist transphobic "radical feminists."

We've been able to change our birth certificates since 1979 thanks to Lib Dems.

So stop crying over something that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER Concern you.

May I ask what is it you're frightened of being outed to, if someone sees your original birth certificate? "

It’s often not a case of being frightened.

Wouldn’t it be nice if a person could transition and get on with their life without their paperwork ensuring that you have to return to explaining yourself when you take out a mortgage or open a bank account?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

I agree it's unlikely to be a major problem, but why create even minor problems? If current gatekeeping is too rigorous, let's look at that and make it less stringent.

Karen white was prosecuted for Indecent Exposure, Indecency to a child, Indecency in public, Two accounts of r*pe to women with two more counts inside a womans prison.

Let's break this down, Female Passport? - Okay.

Is this person a harm to women? - In this case, a massive YES

Is this person going to cause harm to another woman if placed on a woman's wing - again, YES.

Karen should never have been placed on a main wing. It's as simple as that. That's not the fault of us. That's the fault of G4S "

The point is simply that self ID makes it easier for people like White to play the system.

Anyway we've agreed that self ID without a protocol or gateway is wrong.

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By *enniferJayXXXTV/TS
over a year ago

Stoke-On-Trent

As a genuine trans person, surely you wouldn't want a system to be open to abuse in that way? Surely there has to be some gatekeeping?

As I say, I value my life. I have been a victim myself. I won't say of which as it's no one's business, but I have been a victim. Did it happen in a women's space? No, it didn't.

Yes, I am worried but I go on fact's. No country that has a self declaration system has ever had someone falsely claim their gender to harm another person.

This whole argument is America's bathroom bill all over again. And, look, the same argument was raised for that and look, noone got harmed. *Facepalms*

We agree with each other. He seems you want some gatekeeping too.

Reasonable good faith discussion is always best.

Of course I want safekeeping. I'd hate for anything to happen to another woman as much as myself. I am a feminist and I support women and I too do fear but, as I say, I go on fact's. Harm will come our way regardless. That's my point. We can't avoid that. As long as a protocol is still in place for self declaration I can assure you no one will be abusing the system.

As for TERF's - If you was, you'd be approaching me with aggression and hostility as well as the men on here ;;) lol

I get your fears. I want safeguarding just as much as any other woman. But, as I say, as long as a protocol is still in place, We should be fine

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"The consultation also makes reference to those that may not be able to undergo medical transitions for health reasons too, so how do they prove their ‘genuine trans’ status?

Yes, I used that test too. But they are certainly not infallible and they are not used to provide a legal categorisation for the birth certificate.

No I’m not. I am saying that the birth certificate doesn’t specify or record biological sex and gender is not able to be recorded at birth.

How on earth can you claim that a birth certificate doesn't specify or record sex? Have you seen one? What do you think the box with the title "sex" is referring to?

Or course gender could be stated at birth. 99.7% of people have a gender that matches their sex. I have no problem with people changing their gender later if they think it doesn't match.

Honestly I just can't do the mental gymnastics to follow the logic of people that willfully ignore correlations of 0.99 "

I disagree. The birth certificate should record objective facts only as a matter of public record. Given that "gender" is completely subjective and given that a new born baby can't have any subjective sense of gender, it would be impossible to record that just as it would be impossible to record the baby's football, religious or political preferences.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There seems to be a view that the proposed change could create a slim chance of abuse of the system by criminals. Unfortunately every system can be abused by criminals but that doesn’t mean that the system should not exist, it means that criminal actions need to be targeted.

Trans people are already suffering as a result of a lack of recognition of their genders and this is a real issue, rather than a theoretical problem.

Women and men all need to be protected from abusers, but by targeting the abusers not people who have legitimate reasons for requiring recognition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Trans people are already suffering as a result of a lack of recognition of their genders and this is a real issue, rather than a theoretical problem.

Women and men all need to be protected from abusers, but by targeting the abusers not people who have legitimate reasons for requiring recognition.

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