FabSwingers.com forum: Transgender Day of Remembrance (TDoR)

By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

I would like to tell you all a little bit about the Transgender Day of Remembrance. This is a memorial day that is observed annually on November 20, to remember those transgender people who have been murdered as a result of transphobia and to draw attention to the continued violence endured by the transgender community.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

Why do we need this you ask? Surely every death matters, what is special about these transgender people that they should get a special day? TDoR is needed especially because transgender people should not be special, but they are treated as special by almost all societies around the world. They are treated as being weird, as being sexual perverts, as being insane. Often the best treatment they can hope for is just to be used as the target of cruel laughter, to be called "tranny", "shim", "shemale" and far far worse. In the worst cases they become the targets of state sponsored violence, they are attacked by government, by police.

Transgender Day of Remembrance was founded in 1999 by Gwendolyn Ann Smith, a transgender woman, to memorialize the murder of transgender woman Rita Hester in Allston, Massachusetts. Rita was found on the floor of her apartment on 28 November, she had suffered multiple stab wounds and later died at the hospital. Like most anti-transgender murder cases, Rita Hester’s murder has yet to be solved.

Every year many transgender people across the world are murdered, many more are merely(!) attacked, purely because of being who they are. Because of transphobia in society. Because of attitudes that that start with the words "tranny", "shemale".

Each day I intend to add to this thread, each day giving the name and cause of death of another transgender person. It is my hope that other contributors to this thread will do so in a respectful way. It is my fear that there will be some who choose instead to mock and promote hatred.

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By *iss SJWoman
over a year ago

Hull

"I would like to tell you all a little bit about the Transgender Day of Remembrance. This is a memorial day that is observed annually on November 20, to remember those transgender people who have been murdered as a result of transphobia and to draw attention to the continued violence endured by the transgender community."

Is anything done to mark the day Pol? Or what can we do to highlight it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is anything done to mark the day Pol? Or what can we do to highlight it? "

Not killing any trans people would be a good start

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By *iss SJWoman
over a year ago

Hull

Is anything done to mark the day Pol? Or what can we do to highlight it?

Not killing any trans people would be a good start

Don’t be facetious!

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By *uciyassMan
over a year ago

sheffield

Great thread Polly. And I hope many will take this chance to remember and to reflect

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

Is anything done to mark the day Pol? Or what can we do to highlight it? "

On or around 20th November every year, events are usually organised in some of the larger cities. These are often in the form of candle lit vigils, sometimes with a religious element, most often not. Last year Manchester had three or four different events organised by various transgender support groups. Sometimes it is just two or three transgender people, and their friends and supporters, who get together to spend some quiet time in remembrance.

Nearer the time I will post notices here for any of the more organised events being held in the UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter."

White cis males don't because we have white male privilege

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By *sGivesWoodWoman
over a year ago

ST. AUSTELL, CORNWALL

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter."

Indeed they do. Perhaps people who have no interest in the opening post should bypass this thread.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

Indeed they do. Perhaps people who have no interest in the opening post should bypass this thread. "

It's an open thread and on topic with the subject.

If you don't like opinions that don't match your own, maybe you should bypass the forums

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

Indeed they do. Perhaps people who have no interest in the opening post should bypass this thread. "

How many speciific days of remembrance are there?

One victim of crime is no more or less important than any other victim of crime.

If a cisperson had posted the original thread, it would look a lot less like "this is important because it is important to me" rather than "This is important because we should all work towards shaping society where there shouldn't be crime, not just eliminating hate crime".

I stand by my original statement.

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By *tella HeelsTV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

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By *sGivesWoodWoman
over a year ago

ST. AUSTELL, CORNWALL

[Removed by poster at 24/09/18 14:39:25]

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By *sGivesWoodWoman
over a year ago

ST. AUSTELL, CORNWALL

To quote from the end of the original OP...

"It is my hope that other contributors to this thread will do so in a respectful way. It is my fear that there will be some who choose instead to mock and promote hatred."

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By *uciyassMan
over a year ago

sheffield

"To quote from the end of the original OP...

"It is my hope that other contributors to this thread will do so in a respectful way. It is my fear that there will be some who choose instead to mock and promote hatred.""

Hear Hear

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By *isaB45Woman
over a year ago

Fabville

Respect xx

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2006: Gisberta Salce Júnior, a Brazilian transgender woman, was assassinated in Oporto, Portugal, by a group of 14 youths between 12 and 16 years old, who tortured and r*ped her for three days, and finally threw her, still alive, into a well over 15 m deep, where she drowned. Eleven of the minors received minimal sentences of under 13 months in a semi-open education center of the Instituto de Reinserção Social, and two received sentences of additional education. Her death became a symbol of the violence against women and the LGBT community, and shortly after laws protecting trans women were introduced in Portugal.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2000: Christine Chappel's naked body was found near Kessingland Beach near Lowestoft on 2 March. Detectives originally thought the 28-year-old victim, from Roxwell, near Chelmsford, Essex, may have drowned, but a post mortem revealed unexplained head injuries. Police released pictures of the weights and chains found wrapped around Miss Chappel's naked body in an appeal for witnesses to come forward. A Suffolk police spokesman said they had been treating the death as suspicious pending the outcome of further tests. "Now these tests have revealed Christine Chappel was murdered," he said.

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By *hoenixAdAstraWoman
over a year ago

Hiding in the shadows

Thank you for this thread Polly

Saddens me that in this day & age, people are still persecuted xx

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By *icoleAndLisaTransTV/TS
over a year ago

Ellesmere Port

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter."

Indeed, but it rather misses the point. You think all lives matter. I think all lives matter. I'm sure most people here think all lives matter (though you might find opinion divided on murderers, rapists and paedophiles.)

But there are cis people out there who actually think trans lives don't matter, to the point where it's okay to kill someone trans. Especially if they've just had sex with them, squirted about 5ml of sticky liquid, and need someone to blame for them straying off the righteous path of heterosexuality now that their sex drive has dropped off a cliff.

I don't think anyone reading this would defend that behaviour, but it doesn't stop it happening. The disproportionately high murder rate in the trans population is a problem, and it needs to be highlighted.

"All lives matter" steals the thunder from that. So it'd be nice if people didn't do it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

"All lives matter" steals the thunder from that. So it'd be nice if people didn't do it."

I've done some googling and I'm having trouble finding a reliable source that points to disproportionately high murder rate in the trans community. What source are you using?

(FYI, not being funny, genuinely interested)

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By *icoleAndLisaTransTV/TS
over a year ago

Ellesmere Port

"I've done some googling and I'm having trouble finding a reliable source that points to disproportionately high murder rate in the trans community. What source are you using?

(FYI, not being funny, genuinely interested)"

I'll grant you, it's just something I've heard repeated so often that I've accepted it as true, and never thought to question it.

I don't think there are any reliable statistics. I doubt there are even reliable numbers with respect to how many trans people there are in society. And even if there were, you'd have to divide between those who do it secretly in private, and those who put themselves at risk by actually going out or actually dating as trans.

What's glaring is the ever increasing list of names of trans women who suffer (sometimes fatal) violence. Now those statistics often come from the US, which is a murder happy nation at the best of times. Does this happen to others? Of course it does. But as long as people who are trans are being killed because they're trans, they must be at higher risk than the general population, all other things being equal. There's simply one more reason for someone to kill them.

Thankfully, I've never had a guy turn violent (though I know people who have.) The worst I've had is that standard "regret after orgasm" that guys get when they lose the horn and are just left with the stark reality of what they've just done. Sometimes it's "cheated on their wife." Often it's "had a cock in their mouth when they're supposed to be straight." And you can see from the reaction of regret and self-loathing in (thankfully non-violent) people how nasty that could turn with violent ones.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2016: William Lound, a 30-year-old transgender man from England, suffered multiple stab wounds and died on 8 February at the University of Salford, where he had been a student. Mr Lound's mother Mo, of Birkdale in Southport, Merseyside, said his death had "devastated" the family. Greater Manchester Police confirmed they were treating the mature student's killing as a transphobic and homophobic hate crime. Mrs Lound said: "William was an intelligent, unique and caring young man, who should have been free to express himself and live his life how he chose. "If nothing else, I hope his death highlights the fact that homophobic hate crime is still an issue in this country, and that it needs to be properly investigated and stamped out."

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2008: Angie Zapata was a trans woman murdered on 17 July 2008, in Greeley, Colorado. Her death was the first case involving a transgender victim to be ruled a hate crime. Colorado is one of only eleven states that protect transgender victims under hate crime laws in the United States. Allen Andrade, who learned eighteen-year-old Angie was transgender after meeting her and spending several days with her, beat her to death with a fire extinguisher. In his arrest affidavit, Andrade calls Zapata "it", and during his trial a tape was played of a phone conversation in which he told his girl friend "gay things need to die". Andrade's attorneys used a gay panic defense. On 22 April 2009, Andrade was found guilty of first degree murder, hate crimes, and car/ID theft. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

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By *icksoneMan
over a year ago

oldham

Please could I have some of that white privilege.

At nearly 50 I have never seen any.

Like most white males I have had to work very hard for everything I have.

Murder is murder and there is no excuse but to have a special day ??

Should we have a day for all of those kids abused by certain sections of society.

Or should I shut up for the sake of diversity

Please put your abuse below........

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It blows our mind that in modern times people can’t accept others.

We don’t believe in sexuality, just happiness.

No labels just be who you want.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2011: Dee Dee Pierson, a black transgender woman, was murdered on 24 December 2011. Kenyon Jones confessed to the murder, telling police that he had paid Pierson for sex and when he found out she was transgender, he became angry and killed her.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2013: Islan Nettles, a 21-year-old black trans woman, was beaten to death in Harlem, New York on 17 August after a group of at least seven men accosted her and two of her transgender friends. One of the men, James Dixon, had been flirting with her. After he realized she was transgender, he struck her. After falling down, Dixon proceeded to beat her. She died of head injuries in hospital. Her death prompted a number of protests. On 21 April 2016, Dixon was sentenced 12 years in prison after pleading guilty to manslaughter.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I think this is important, and am glad to see it discussed here. I'd love to support if I can without inadvertently making it about me.

When your group suffers persecution, higher rates of mental health issues/ suicide, violence and murder at higher rates than the general population (because of who you are), you can have a special day. I'm pretty sure most trans people would rather skip the day and not have to live in fear.

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By *ark7640Man
over a year ago

bimiingham

Well getting a good shag lol

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2014: A transgender woman named Jennifer Laude was found dead inside a motel room in Olongapo City, Philippines. Motel staff found her naked body on the floor of the bathroom, her head leaning on the rim of the toilet bowl. U.S. Marine Joseph Scott Pemberton admitted in August to strangling the woman. The 19-year-old said in court that he was “repulsed” and “feared he would be r*ped” after discovering that Laude was transgender. That fear, he said, prompted him to “subdue” her in self-defense. He later allegedly told a fellow Marine: “I think I killed a he/she.”

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2018: An unidentified transgender woman in Pakistan died after being set afire by four men when she resisted sexual assault. The men had taken the woman to an isolated area in the city of Sahiwal, in the eastern part of the nation, The Times of India reported. She fought back when they tried to assault her, and then they set her on fire. She suffered burns on 80 percent of her body and died while being transported to a hospital.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Well getting a good shag lol"

Please don't minimise this.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

"2018: An unidentified transgender woman in Pakistan died after being set afire by four men when she resisted sexual assault. The men had taken the woman to an isolated area in the city of Sahiwal, in the eastern part of the nation, The Times of India reported. She fought back when they tried to assault her, and then they set her on fire. She suffered burns on 80 percent of her body and died while being transported to a hospital."

That was filmed and is all over the internet.

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By *hubnwife_36dd_ukCouple
over a year ago

chester

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

Indeed they do. Perhaps people who have no interest in the opening post should bypass this thread. "

God idea. That would drop the apparent audience quite considerably!

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By *hubnwife_36dd_ukCouple
over a year ago

chester

"Please could I have some of that white privilege.

At nearly 50 I have never seen any.

Like most white males I have had to work very hard for everything I have.

Murder is murder and there is no excuse but to have a special day ??

Should we have a day for all of those kids abused by certain sections of society.

Or should I shut up for the sake of diversity

Please put your abuse below........"

No abuse mate. Total agreement.

I'm one of those who will do "live and let live" but in the end blow a fuse when everybody else is ramming their "entitlements" down my throat.

Day of Remberance? By God that stinks as an idea given we are about to have a centenary Day of Remberance for all the millions who died in war for the rest of us. Talk about walking in dead men's shoes!

Don't bother posting abuse from the thought police people.

If you're trans/bi/ or any of the other alphabetical designations so beloved on here and some bastard is beating you up simply because of it I will, even at my age, intervene and try to stop it, but I'm not going to dance to your every whim. How about we resume some dancing to the majority's whim?

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Good heavens, a day which isn't universally acknowledged that you're not required to participate in, that allows people to acknowledge those who have been killed for being who they are.

Help, help, we're being oppressed! Such hardship.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is so so important

Can anyone who's trying to downplay this explain why you're doing that exactly?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's not something I would have been too aware of until I watched a documentary called The death and life of Marsha P Johnson. It can be a difficult watch as it's heart breaking but it gives some insight into why this day is important.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2002: Gwen Araujo of Newark, California, an American teenage trans woman, was killed by four men, with two of whom she had had sexual relations, who beat and str*ngled her after discovering she was transgender. Two defendants were convicted of second-degree murder, but not convicted on the requested hate crime enhancements. The other two defendants pleaded guilty or no contest to voluntary manslaughter. In at least one of the trials, a trans panic defense - an extension of the gay panic defense - was employed.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2015: Yoshi Tsuchida, a 38-year-old transgender man from Fussa City, Tokyo, Japan, was discovered wrapped in a blanket at his apartment on 12 November 2015. Police reported that his face had been sliced off with a sharp instrument. Pathology tests on Tsuchida's body found the cause of death to be medicinal poisoning. Tsuchida's body was discovered by his adopted daughter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I may joke about with you guys but killing someone is just not acceptable.

Love to all who lost their lives x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

Indeed they do. Perhaps people who have no interest in the opening post should bypass this thread.

It's an open thread and on topic with the subject.

If you don't like opinions that don't match your own, maybe you should bypass the forums "

It burns but its true, sides with le Jaffa Cake

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A good post Polly, those who have read it that didn’t know about it do now

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2016: Tara, a 28-year-old transgender woman was found severely burnt outside of Pondy Bazaar police station (India). She died at the Kilpauk Medical College in Chennai on the morning of 9 November. Police had stopped her the night before and accused her of soliciting sex work while she charged her phone at a 24-hour store. They confiscated her phone and the keys to her vehicle that night. According to a friend, when she argued, she was assaulted by the police, who then took her to the police station for questioning, where they allegedly assaulted her again. When friends came looking for Tara at around 5am, they found her lying in the compound of the police station severely burnt. They immediately rushed her to the hospital, where doctors told them that Tara had suffered 95% burns. By 10am, Tara died in the hospital.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2015: Vanessa Santillan, a 33-year-old Mexican trans woman from Miami, Florida, suffered fatal injuries to her head and neck in an apartment in Fulham, London, England on 28 March. Santillan maintained a personal website where she was openly trans and wrote about trips she'd taken around the world. She was reportedly last seen in public the evening before her death, spending time in London's West End with a small group of friends before returning to the apartment in the early morning hours.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

Worldwide, a transgender or gender-nonconforming person — mostly women of color, like Santillan — is murdered nearly every two days. Notably, that figure that does not include unreported murders or victims not identified by their authentic gender identity in death.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Really important thread Polly. Please keep it up.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2013: On 19th March, Lucy Meadows took her own life after a sustained campaign of harassment against her by the press, in particular the Daily Mail and the reporter Richard Littlejohn. Lucy was a junior school teacher who tried to stay in her job after transitioning. There was initially no problem with staff or children at the school, until the media were tipped off who started a viscious campaign to discredit her and force her out of her job. For a period of several weeks it was impossible for her to leave her house or even go to a window without a camera being pushed into her face.

At the inquest, Michael Singleton, coroner for Blackburn, Hyndburn and Rossendale, singled out the Daily Mail as he accused the paper of "ridicule and humiliation" and a "character assassination" of Lucy Meadows. The inquest found that the harassment was not the sole cause of Lucy's suicide, but the coroner was insistent that the unwelcome media attention had contributed to her death. "Lucy Meadows was not somebody who had thrust herself into the public limelight. She was not a celebrity. She had done nothing wrong. Her only crime was to be different. Not by choice but by some trick of nature. And yet the press saw fit to treat her in the way that they did."

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

2018: Naomi Hersi, 36, was found stabbed to death at Heathrow Palace in London at 10:30 on Sunday 18 March 2018. Jesse McDonald, 24, from Hounslow, has been charged with murder. A 17-year-old girl, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was released on bail after being charged with assisting an offender.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

A day off from these postings... Tomorrow planning to say something about the sky high rate of attempted suicide, and actual suicide, amongst transgender people

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By *rysandMadsCouple
over a year ago

Barnstaple

"A day off from these postings... Tomorrow planning to say something about the sky high rate of attempted suicide, and actual suicide, amongst transgender people

Thank you for the time and emotional labour of trying to raise awareness, I was unaware of the remembrance and appreciate learning more ??

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By *rysandMadsCouple
over a year ago

Barnstaple

Apologies for the "??" I guess the forum doesn't like hearts!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter."

Yes I agree with this. I don't see why certain groups should have special recognition if they are murdered. Murder is murder. A life lost is a life lost. I also don't see how having special days to mark these is going to help. It's not as though a transphobe is gonna stop and think not to kill their victim because of a remembrance day.

This is just pointless virtue signalling.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Please could I have some of that white privilege.

At nearly 50 I have never seen any.

Like most white males I have had to work very hard for everything I have.

Murder is murder and there is no excuse but to have a special day ??

Should we have a day for all of those kids abused by certain sections of society.

Or should I shut up for the sake of diversity

Please put your abuse below........

No abuse mate. Total agreement.

I'm one of those who will do "live and let live" but in the end blow a fuse when everybody else is ramming their "entitlements" down my throat.

Don't bother posting abuse from the thought police people.

I don't think the OP is trying to suggest that anyone is seeking preferential treatment, or that any gender or sexuality is more important than any other and needing remembrance as a consequence.

It's simply raising awareness of hate crime and someone being murdered for the way they choose to live. Maybe we need to reflect on this?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why not just have one for everyone who has been murdered for any reason?

I don't get this idea of picking out one section of the community.

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By *rysandMadsCouple
over a year ago

Barnstaple

I don't think the OP is trying to suggest that anyone is seeking preferential treatment, or that any gender or sexuality is more important than any other and needing remembrance as a consequence.

It's simply raising awareness of hate crime and someone being murdered for the way they choose to live. Maybe we need to reflect on this?"

I would upvote the hell out of this if I could!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why not just have one for everyone who has been murdered for any reason?

I don't get this idea of picking out one section of the community. "

Yes every life matters, but do it causes behind violence are varied?

Maybe this highlights a particular prejudice? I'm not sure it's simply raising the awareness of the death alone, but the prejudice that led to it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why do we need this you ask? Surely every death matters, what is special about these transgender people that they should get a special day? TDoR is needed especially because transgender people should not be special, but they are treated as special by almost all societies around the world. They are treated as being weird, as being sexual perverts, as being insane. Often the best treatment they can hope for is just to be used as the target of cruel laughter, to be called "tranny", "shim", "shemale" and far far worse. In the worst cases they become the targets of state sponsored violence, they are attacked by government, by police.

Sounds awful and was unaware it happened. So I understand, that case you posted is a horrific murder, but not an uncommon scene. What makes it a transgender murder rather than just the sad murder of another human?

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By *llons-yWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

"Please could I have some of that white privilege.

At nearly 50 I have never seen any.

Like most white males I have had to work very hard for everything I have.

Murder is murder and there is no excuse but to have a special day ??

Should we have a day for all of those kids abused by certain sections of society.

Or should I shut up for the sake of diversity

Please put your abuse below........"

White privilege doesn't mean you don't experience hardship, it just means your skin colour isn't one of the things making your life harder, it's not a difficult concept

More awareness is needed of what trans people go through, maybe then people would start to realise that the only threat when trans people use the bathroom that aligns with their gender, is the danger *towards* them from transphobes.

Great thread OP xx

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By *abrielle247Couple (FF)
over a year ago

PDI Gran Canaria

"Please could I have some of that white privilege.

At nearly 50 I have never seen any.

Like most white males I have had to work very hard for everything I have.

Murder is murder and there is no excuse but to have a special day ??

Should we have a day for all of those kids abused by certain sections of society.

Or should I shut up for the sake of diversity

Please put your abuse below........

No abuse mate. Total agreement.

I'm one of those who will do "live and let live" but in the end blow a fuse when everybody else is ramming their "entitlements" down my throat.

Don't bother posting abuse from the thought police people.

I don't think the OP is trying to suggest that anyone is seeking preferential treatment, or that any gender or sexuality is more important than any other and needing remembrance as a consequence.

It's simply raising awareness of hate crime and someone being murdered for the way they choose to live. Maybe we need to reflect on this?"

Summed up perfectly, this particular thread is a excellent filter for those that are terminally bigoted and stupid.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Please could I have some of that white privilege.

At nearly 50 I have never seen any.

Like most white males I have had to work very hard for everything I have.

Murder is murder and there is no excuse but to have a special day ??

Should we have a day for all of those kids abused by certain sections of society.

Or should I shut up for the sake of diversity

Please put your abuse below........

White privilege doesn't mean you don't experience hardship, it just means your skin colour isn't one of the things making your life harder, it's not a difficult concept

Great thread OP xx"

I disagree with this. Being white can also lead to difficulty and being singled out. All you need to do is look at the statistics for grooming and sexual exploitation and victims of violence and muggings and find that whites are over represented. This ideology that because people are white makes them privileged is dangerous. It's a repeat of the communist /bolshevic mantra against the middle class except they replaced class with being white. Nothing good can come of this. Please stop this racist behavior.

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By *andlingswingersCouple
over a year ago

Woodbridge

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

"All lives matter" steals the thunder from that. So it'd be nice if people didn't do it."

I used to think 'all lives matter' was just a statement of fact. But it seems to be just code for 'shut up about this and let's get back to talking about straight white guy stuff.'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

"All lives matter" steals the thunder from that. So it'd be nice if people didn't do it.

I used to think 'all lives matter' was just a statement of fact. But it seems to be just code for 'shut up about this and let's get back to talking about straight white guy stuff.'

I’d assumed the claims that white men don’t enjoy privilege was heavy handed satire??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

"All lives matter" steals the thunder from that. So it'd be nice if people didn't do it.

I used to think 'all lives matter' was just a statement of fact. But it seems to be just code for 'shut up about this and let's get back to talking about straight white guy stuff.'

Massively biased statement and a huge false equivalence. "all lives matter" does not mean "shut up and let's talk about straight white male stuff".

"All lives matter" means "All lives matter". Period.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

"All lives matter" steals the thunder from that. So it'd be nice if people didn't do it.

I used to think 'all lives matter' was just a statement of fact. But it seems to be just code for 'shut up about this and let's get back to talking about straight white guy stuff.'

Massively biased statement and a huge false equivalence. "all lives matter" does not mean "shut up and let's talk about straight white male stuff".

"All lives matter" means "All lives matter". Period. "

Yes. And it goes down so well when you are at a funeral and you stand up and say "why are we talking about just this one person, didn't you know all lives matter?".

This thread is talking about some people who have been murdered, and informing about an occasion when some other people remember those who have died. This occasion is not mandatory, nobody is telling those who don't care that they must care. There is no official body or government mandate that all must observe TDoR. There is no political correctness. Anybody who doesn't want to know about TDoR should simply skip this thread, there is nobody forcing you to read it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes. And it goes down so well when you are at a funeral and you stand up and say "why are we talking about just this one person, didn't you know all lives matter?".

OP there are few things wrong with your statement.

1. If you post things in a public forum you will have responses from the public. Some of those you may not like.

2. You are drawing an illogical comparison. Nobody here is at a funeral nor will they go to any funeral and start debating politics. Trying to use this argument to "shut people up" if they disagree with you during a discussion is really disingenuous and has nothing to do with the point you are debating.

3. You completely miss the point of "All lives matter". Let's take your funeral for example since you like it so much. "All lives matter" means that each individual person will be celebrated for their life individually, and their personal circumstances including their death will be taken into account. There is no "women killed by their ex partners day", "men killed by work accident day", or "people killed during a mugging day". Making a day for each reason someone is killed is ridiculous, completely unrealistic and utterly contrived.

4. By its nature a Remembrance Day is a public event and you are drawing attention to it. As a public event people will debate it. While you claim that it's not an official day and not mandatory, your act of "promoting" it is mirrored by many trans activists, and no doubt there will be a push at some point to either a) make it official and/or b) try to label those who don't observe it as 'transphobic' which may have real reprucussions for them (harassment, loss of job, even a 'hate crime' conviction by omission), so the "it isn't mandatory" statement may not fly in the future.

5. "There is no political correctness" - by its definition establishing a remembrance day for a sexual minority based on perceived hate crimes is politically correct.

6. You mentioned in a previous point about using the word "tranny" leads to people being murdered. This is ridiculous. Tranny is an all encompassing colloquial descriptive term for trans which is most commonly used in an affectionate or descriotive way. It is also much more natural and acoustically balanced to say "I'm a tranny" than saying "I'm a trans". Just because some people use it in a negative way doesn't make the word negative. Stop trying to poison it. People can say "Male" or "Woman" in a derogatory way, that doesn't mean we ban those words.

7. Equality means being seen and treated as equals. Not being special and singled out. Constantly trying to make things about your special group is truly transphobic and discriminatory by definition. It has also been found by many studies to actually INCREASE prejudice against a stated group if you keep banging on about it.

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By *sGivesWoodWoman
over a year ago

ST. AUSTELL, CORNWALL

I'm just reposting the OP to remind people what it's about, as this thread is rapidly descending into petty squabbles between some forumites.

Its a thread of rememberance.

If you have nothing relevant to post, please feel free to bypass this thread!

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By *isaB45Woman
over a year ago

Fabville

The awful thing is that these poor people met with such unspeakable violence and cruelty, just because of how they choose to live and love.

Prejudice seems to be alive, andvery much kicking.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm just reposting the OP to remind people what it's about, as this thread is rapidly descending into petty squabbles between some forumites.

Its a thread of rememberance.

If you have nothing relevant to post, please feel free to bypass this thread!

It would be nice if the OP would answer, unless I missed it in all the phobias getting chucked about, how some of these are not "just people being murdered" some, a very few, are clearly prejudice caused deaths, but most seem like just sad deaths. Or is ever TS murder counted as a hate crime, which is pretty ridiculous.

Genuine question by the way, I have nothing against the concept at all, I think it's a nice tribute.

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By *olly_chromatic OP TV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

It is of course impossible to know the exact motives behind the killing in every one of these cases. However, in many of them there is clearly at least some aspect where the gender identification of the victim is connected. When we look at the causes of death - tortured, r*ped, thrown into a well while alive; wrapped in chains and weights then thrown into the sea; multiple stab wounds; beaten to death with a fire extinguisher by someone who said "gay things need to die"; killed by a person that was angry about her being transgender; beaten after man in street realised she was transgender; str*ngled by someone that said they were "repulsed"; set on fire; beat and str*ngled by a group of men after discovered to be transgender; face sliced off with a sharp knife; assaulted by police and set on fire; hounded by the press until taken her own life - these are not normal assaults, they are not burglaries gone wrong, they are not tragic accidents.

There is no claim that every death of a transgender person is a murder, or even that every murder is a clear hate crime. But some are, and even one is too many. At TDoR we do not exclude some of the deceased because "well, that one might not have been a hate crime, maybe it was just an ordinary killing". We choose to remember all those known, and to think upon those who are not even known.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm just reposting the OP to remind people what it's about, as this thread is rapidly descending into petty squabbles between some forumites.

Its a thread of rememberance.

If you have nothing relevant to post, please feel free to bypass this thread!

Genuine question by the way, I have nothing against the concept at all, I think it's a nice tribute. "

A hate crime is one that is motivated by the victims membership of a particular social group.

In many cases it is plain to see what motivates an, otherwise, motiveless crime.

Obviously, for the victim, the result is the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

White cis males don't because we have white male privilege "

Are there a lot of cases of white cis males being murdered because they are white cis males? Or state-level persecution of white cis males? Or systematic failure by police to fully investigate the murder of white cis males? I think that is the point here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

White cis males don't because we have white male privilege

What some people seem to be failing to understand (or ignoring) is that the hate element is seen in law as an exacerbation of the crime. No one has said that other crimes,with other motivations,do not matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

White cis males don't because we have white male privilege

Absolutely. There are memorial days for numerous other social groups who have experienced hardship and injustice. So why would anyone object to a memorial for trans people who have been persecuted to the ultimate extreme of loss of life?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

White cis males don't because we have white male privilege

There is no state level persecution of trans individuals or deliberate attempt not to investigate their murders in any Western nation. To the contrary most transitions are supported by the state and anti discrimination legislation exists. Stop making things up or otherwise provide evidence.

People are murdered for all sorts of labels. And yes white men are also picked on to be the victims of crime by ethnic minority perpetrators (particularly in the US - Check the FBI statistics).

None of your points are really valid. And that's my point.

I'm not denying that some trans individuals are the victims of transphobic attacks. But my point is they aren't the ONLY ones who are attacked because of their identity. It happens to everyone. What would be more appropriate and less discriminatory is remembering ALL victims of murder, violence and crime whether perpetrated for reasons of identity or not, regardless of a person's gender identity, race, religion, ethnicity, sexuality or whatever. Don't forget that globally men form almost 80% of murder victims but nobody makes a sing and dance about that despite them being disproportionately likely to be attacked and in terms of real numbers there are massive amounts of lives lost. Then we can look collectively on how to reduce these crimes and help EVERYONE, not just a tiny subset of society.

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By *abrielle247Couple (FF)
over a year ago

PDI Gran Canaria

I have come to the conclusion some people have missed the point of this thread entirely, and set their arguments out in a totally non rational way. Probably based on delusion or bad past experience in their fucked up view of the world.

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By *sGivesWoodWoman
over a year ago

ST. AUSTELL, CORNWALL

"I have come to the conclusion some people have missed the point of this thread entirely, and set their arguments out in a totally non rational way. Probably based on delusion or bad past experience in their fucked up view of the world."

Indeed they have.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

I guess murder - any murder - by definition involves hate.

Someone must really hate their victim to set out with the intent to kill.

Their violence could be rooted in gender, in racial characteristics, sexuality, in politics or whatever.

Do the statistics in the UK show any single group to suffer disproportionately from violent death?

I have no problem with a memorial to any of them.

They are all victims of hatred.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

White cis males don't because we have white male privilege

People are murdered for all sorts of labels. And yes white men are also picked on to be the victims of crime by ethnic minority perpetrators (particularly in the US - Check the FBI statistics).

None of your points are really valid. And that's my point.

Don’t tell me that ‘none of my points are really valid’. That’s dismissive, haughty, arrogant, and obnoxious. I didn’t mention ‘western countries’ when I said state level persecution so go and check your own facts.

Also, no one is suggesting only looking to sympathise with a tiny subset of society. Again, you are totally inaccurate in your response. I suspect that you are deliberately misunderstanding the points being raised for the sake of your own agenda.

I sympathise with members of the military and recognise times given for their remembrance, I recognise time given to remember victims of the holocaust, I recognise time to remember miners killed in tradgedies, young men who are victims of gang violence, men or women who are victims of domestic abuse and the list goes on. So do you object to recognising all of these victims or just trans people?

Only by recognising the causes of each specific issue can we address them. The idea that we can have a blanket solution to ‘murder’ is utterly ridiculous.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

White cis males don't because we have white male privilege

People are murdered for all sorts of labels. And yes white men are also picked on to be the victims of crime by ethnic minority perpetrators (particularly in the US - Check the FBI statistics).

None of your points are really valid. And that's my point.

Feel free to start a white, cis Male remembrance thread...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Murder is murder.

All lives matter.

White cis males don't because we have white male privilege

People are murdered for all sorts of labels. And yes white men are also picked on to be the victims of crime by ethnic minority perpetrators (particularly in the US - Check the FBI statistics).

None of your points are really valid. And that's my point.

Only by recognising the causes of each specific issue can we address them. The idea that we can have a blanket solution to ‘murder’ is utterly ridiculous. "

I think right now I love you a little bit..

* The margaritas may be talking...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

...Only by recognising the causes of each specific issue can we address them. The idea that we can have a blanket solution to ‘murder’ is utterly ridiculous.

I think right now I love you a little bit..

* The margaritas may be talking...

Ha ha, do have another one! Xx

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