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" www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jul/26/was-james-gunn-the-first-undeserving-victim-of-hollywoods-new-zero-tolerance-policy ' In a film industry that has become rife with hasty, face-saving, PR-vetted apologies, James Gunn’s read more sincerely than most. “My words of nearly a decade ago were, at the time, totally failed and unfortunate efforts to be provocative,” said the director of the first two mega-grossing Guardians of the Galaxy blockbusters. “I have regretted them for many years since – not just because they were stupid, not at all funny, wildly insensitive, and certainly not provocative like I had hoped, but also because they don’t reflect the person I am today or have been for some time.” ' 'The director of the first two Guardians of the Galaxy films was dismissed from the third movie after outrage over bad-taste Twitter jokes he made between 2008 and 2011. Did he deserve to go – or was it a witch-hunt?' Should people be forgiven for things they've said in the past?" It all depends on the context and what was said, i would have thought.. I didn't open the link..my son told me about what the guy said as he is a fan of the films | |||
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"Depends on what was said In youth we can all say silly things ... " So glad there was no social media when I was young and stupid. | |||
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"Depends on what was said In youth we can all say silly things ... So glad there was no social media when I was young and stupid." Me too. | |||
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"What he tweeted was pretty shit in all honesty, and a pretty twatty thing to put on public media. Can’t deny that. However, as i understand it, it was all drawn attention to by one of Trump’s men after he had initially made derogatory comments about Trump. I think the bigger picture and the implication is a bit more sinister than some fella’s flippant stupidity. " even if it was 10years ago..they were stupid,offensive and disgusting things to say. There's dark comedy, but also there can be just plain darkness. | |||
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"Ghandi was notoriously racist against black Africans, but he was given a peace prize and people still use his quotes, so forgiving people for earlier transgressions certainly has a noteworthy precedent." And Mandela was a terrorist, rather than freedom fighter, for some. As I said. I think it will rebalance before long. Everyone has something in their past. | |||
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" www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jul/26/was-james-gunn-the-first-undeserving-victim-of-hollywoods-new-zero-tolerance-policy ' In a film industry that has become rife with hasty, face-saving, PR-vetted apologies, James Gunn’s read more sincerely than most. “My words of nearly a decade ago were, at the time, totally failed and unfortunate efforts to be provocative,” said the director of the first two mega-grossing Guardians of the Galaxy blockbusters. “I have regretted them for many years since – not just because they were stupid, not at all funny, wildly insensitive, and certainly not provocative like I had hoped, but also because they don’t reflect the person I am today or have been for some time.” ' 'The director of the first two Guardians of the Galaxy films was dismissed from the third movie after outrage over bad-taste Twitter jokes he made between 2008 and 2011. Did he deserve to go – or was it a witch-hunt?' Should people be forgiven for things they've said in the past? It all depends on the context and what was said, i would have thought.. I didn't open the link..my son told me about what the guy said as he is a fan of the films" What do you think then? I think his comments back then were bad but his apology sounds sincere. Also a lot of people that know him are defending him. Selma Blair and Michael Rooker have quit Twitter in support of him. | |||
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"Ghandi was notoriously racist against black Africans, but he was given a peace prize and people still use his quotes, so forgiving people for earlier transgressions certainly has a noteworthy precedent." In gandhis time virtually everyone would be considered racist by today's standards. | |||
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"Ghandi was notoriously racist against black Africans, but he was given a peace prize and people still use his quotes, so forgiving people for earlier transgressions certainly has a noteworthy precedent. And Mandela was a terrorist, rather than freedom fighter, for some. As I said. I think it will rebalance before long. Everyone has something in their past." Yeah of course Mandela was a terrorist in the same way the white supremacist thought MLK was a terrorist.  | |||
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"We were discussing this over dinner recently. The kids were concerned that no one could replace him but also considered whether that's enough reason to keep someone. They're quite mature. I think we're going through an adjustment process and there will be and are casualties of that. It will level out and most of the past misdemeanors will be forgiven. Right now it's about trying to be consistent and being seen to have a zero tolerance approach. " I'm not sure if I understand or agree with the zero tolerance approach. As in it doesn't take into consideration people learning and changing. Why change if they will never be forgiven. But zero tolerance means it's black and white so fairer in that there's no possibility for misinterpretation. I agree with both things but they are opposing.  | |||
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"Ghandi was notoriously racist against black Africans, but he was given a peace prize and people still use his quotes, so forgiving people for earlier transgressions certainly has a noteworthy precedent. And Mandela was a terrorist, rather than freedom fighter, for some. As I said. I think it will rebalance before long. Everyone has something in their past. Yeah of course Mandela was a terrorist in the same way the white supremacist thought MLK was a terrorist. "Please note the "for some". Or, is it unforgiveable of me to even have mentioned that some people, still, denounce his as a terrorist? | |||
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"Everyone (almost) deserves forgiveness, even if it's just forgiving themselves. Being forgiven doesn't mean that things can return to how they were before you needed that forgiveness. Context as usual is key. Some actions can be forgiven but not allowed to go unpunished or forgotten. There is a culture of witch hunting and virtue signalling in the entertainment industry at the moment. People who watched these things going on and didn't challenge them are now claiming the moral high ground. The whole thing's distasteful." This exactly | |||
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"There is never an apology that will be good enough for moral outrage and indignation. Public opinion will never understand that people are human and consequently are liable to mistakes, let alone regret and learning from/ making amends for them" Ain't that the truth  | |||
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"We were discussing this over dinner recently. The kids were concerned that no one could replace him but also considered whether that's enough reason to keep someone. They're quite mature. I think we're going through an adjustment process and there will be and are casualties of that. It will level out and most of the past misdemeanors will be forgiven. Right now it's about trying to be consistent and being seen to have a zero tolerance approach. I'm not sure if I understand or agree with the zero tolerance approach. As in it doesn't take into consideration people learning and changing. Why change if they will never be forgiven. But zero tolerance means it's black and white so fairer in that there's no possibility for misinterpretation. I agree with both things but they are opposing. "How do you determine whether someone has changed or still hold abhorrent views? People are quite good at hiding some of those views and they may only emerge in the unguarded moments. If you have a customer base that does not hold with the views expressed you could be seen as condoning or supporting them. If you've dismissed one person for something similar but not another (because they're a bigger name/have more money/power etc.) how do you justify it? It will level out but the process is still in the making. We've never had the scale of information about peoples' pasts to draw on before. People have only recently had this much unfettered, largely uncensored, access to publish their innermost thoughts. | |||
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"Blimey, having just read some of the tweets I would say his "jokes" are not funny. I would also say he is 51 so hardly a youngster at the time who can get away with saying " it was my age" Most people wouldn't even think of the things that came out of his mouth let alone air them" I found the 'sincerity' of his apology didn't sit with his age now and his age then. | |||
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"I am not racist, I’m not sexist, people who carried out abominable axe on another human being because of the colour of their skin is as bout as low as you can get in this life... not giving a woman the same respect and dignity as a man is equally as low as you can get in this life... I know I am the only person born that lacked 100% intelligence and insight because of this Wayback then when things were acceptable I said things that I should not I told jokes that I should not people should be forgiven if they do not understand what they are doing or saying ... " These are noble sentiments, and very true, but if you had posted those jokes on the internet at the time, the keyboard warriors would find them and treat you like you'd made them in the last 5 minutes and condemn you accordingly. | |||
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" www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jul/26/was-james-gunn-the-first-undeserving-victim-of-hollywoods-new-zero-tolerance-policy ' In a film industry that has become rife with hasty, face-saving, PR-vetted apologies, James Gunn’s read more sincerely than most. “My words of nearly a decade ago were, at the time, totally failed and unfortunate efforts to be provocative,” said the director of the first two mega-grossing Guardians of the Galaxy blockbusters. “I have regretted them for many years since – not just because they were stupid, not at all funny, wildly insensitive, and certainly not provocative like I had hoped, but also because they don’t reflect the person I am today or have been for some time.” ' 'The director of the first two Guardians of the Galaxy films was dismissed from the third movie after outrage over bad-taste Twitter jokes he made between 2008 and 2011. Did he deserve to go – or was it a witch-hunt?' Should people be forgiven for things they've said in the past?" I think forgiveness is a transformative act for both forgiver and forgivee. I think being accountable for your words and actions is also important. | |||
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"There is never an apology that will be good enough for moral outrage and indignation. Public opinion will never understand that people are human and consequently are liable to mistakes, let alone regret and learning from/ making amends for them Ain't that the truth "Unfortunately it is 
Love your avatar by the way  | |||
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"There is never an apology that will be good enough for moral outrage and indignation. Public opinion will never understand that people are human and consequently are liable to mistakes, let alone regret and learning from/ making amends for them Ain't that the truth
Unfortunately it is
Love your avatar by the way "Not passive aggressive at all is it? | |||
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" www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jul/26/was-james-gunn-the-first-undeserving-victim-of-hollywoods-new-zero-tolerance-policy ' In a film industry that has become rife with hasty, face-saving, PR-vetted apologies, James Gunn’s read more sincerely than most. “My words of nearly a decade ago were, at the time, totally failed and unfortunate efforts to be provocative,” said the director of the first two mega-grossing Guardians of the Galaxy blockbusters. “I have regretted them for many years since – not just because they were stupid, not at all funny, wildly insensitive, and certainly not provocative like I had hoped, but also because they don’t reflect the person I am today or have been for some time.” ' 'The director of the first two Guardians of the Galaxy films was dismissed from the third movie after outrage over bad-taste Twitter jokes he made between 2008 and 2011. Did he deserve to go – or was it a witch-hunt?' Should people be forgiven for things they've said in the past? I think forgiveness is a transformative act for both forgiver and forgivee. I think being accountable for your words and actions is also important. " I'll agree with that. If a person uses the criticism they received because of their words and behaviour to change their way of thinking, they should be forgiven-if the general consensus is they are guilty of wrongdoing. If someone apologises purely because they rubbed the wrong people up the wrong way, only want to do some damage control, and don't change their ways, then no, I won't forgive them. It's just lip service to me, but I do believe some people are genuinely sorry and can change. Some apologies are not sincere. | |||
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" www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jul/26/was-james-gunn-the-first-undeserving-victim-of-hollywoods-new-zero-tolerance-policy ' In a film industry that has become rife with hasty, face-saving, PR-vetted apologies, James Gunn’s read more sincerely than most. “My words of nearly a decade ago were, at the time, totally failed and unfortunate efforts to be provocative,” said the director of the first two mega-grossing Guardians of the Galaxy blockbusters. “I have regretted them for many years since – not just because they were stupid, not at all funny, wildly insensitive, and certainly not provocative like I had hoped, but also because they don’t reflect the person I am today or have been for some time.” ' 'The director of the first two Guardians of the Galaxy films was dismissed from the third movie after outrage over bad-taste Twitter jokes he made between 2008 and 2011. Did he deserve to go – or was it a witch-hunt?' Should people be forgiven for things they've said in the past? I think forgiveness is a transformative act for both forgiver and forgivee. I think being accountable for your words and actions is also important. I'll agree with that. If a person uses the criticism they received because of their words and behaviour to change their way of thinking, they should be forgiven-if the general consensus is they are guilty of wrongdoing. If someone apologises purely because they rubbed the wrong people up the wrong way, only want to do some damage control, and don't change their ways, then no, I won't forgive them. It's just lip service to me, but I do believe some people are genuinely sorry and can change. Some apologies are not sincere." And I would agree with that. And some can’t even apologise, or be self aware of their need to! | |||
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Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know "I tend to not write long, convoluted posts because I lose track of what I wanted to say and get across. I break down those kinds of sentences myself, or avoid them. I get brain ache very easily. Have you tried being more direct and not using fancy language? It's called differentiating, in a school setting, and I find it extremely useful, as my brain doesn't work that well any more. We teach young students how to break down intent and find tone in passages, by looking at the choice of wording and punctuation. | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know "I would just go for it, there will always be someone who disagrees with you, that is what forums are about and they will pick holes in what you say, or they think you have said | |||
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"Depends on what was said In youth we can all say silly things ... " I agree and say the same | |||
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" People's actions speak far more than their words. We've all said things in haste, for reaction, to offend, even just to get a few awkward laughs. Do they define us? Not always." Oi! I don't try to be offensive to get a laugh. I tell shit jokes. | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know "Be frank, I think it’s good that people can voice their opinions and talk about nuanced topics. You can’t control how someone reads you, they’ll be those that simply don’t get it, those that use it as evidence of their pre-existing framing of you, and those that will name call you a snowflake, a bully, a feminist or other such name that they take issue with whilst failing to check themselves too, we are all hypocrites and all fail to understand each other’s context or point because often we have no interest in listening but just in speaking at the world as distraction from whatever we would be or should be doing otherwise. People will ascribe tone and tell you what your reaction is rather than ask. But I’m interested to hear your point. | |||
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"There is never an apology that will be good enough for moral outrage and indignation. Public opinion will never understand that people are human and consequently are liable to mistakes, let alone regret and learning from/ making amends for them Ain't that the truth
Unfortunately it is
Love your avatar by the way
Not passive aggressive at all is it?"No, it isn't. You're not good with language comprehension, are you? | |||
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"There is never an apology that will be good enough for moral outrage and indignation. Public opinion will never understand that people are human and consequently are liable to mistakes, let alone regret and learning from/ making amends for them Ain't that the truth
Unfortunately it is
Love your avatar by the way
Not passive aggressive at all is it?
No, it isn't. You're not good with language comprehension, are you? "
I love these threads, we haven't had a good old debate for a long time on here | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know
Be frank, I think it’s good that people can voice their opinions and talk about nuanced topics. You can’t control how someone reads you, they’ll be those that simply don’t get it, those that use it as evidence of their pre-existing framing of you, and those that will name call you a snowflake, a bully, a feminist or other such name that they take issue with whilst failing to check themselves too, we are all hypocrites and all fail to understand each other’s context or point because often we have no interest in listening but just in speaking at the world as distraction from whatever we would be or should be doing otherwise. People will ascribe tone and tell you what your reaction is rather than ask.
But I’m interested to hear your point. " me too  | |||
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"There is never an apology that will be good enough for moral outrage and indignation. Public opinion will never understand that people are human and consequently are liable to mistakes, let alone regret and learning from/ making amends for them Ain't that the truth
Unfortunately it is
Love your avatar by the way
Not passive aggressive at all is it?
No, it isn't. You're not good with language comprehension, are you? "I’m very clear on the definition, and how the action fits. But I take that you didn’t intend it that way, which must be the only thing you can mean by saying that. You’re forgiven. | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know
I tend to not write long, convoluted posts because I lose track of what I wanted to say and get across.
I break down those kinds of sentences myself, or avoid them.
I get brain ache very easily.
Have you tried being more direct and not using fancy language?
It's called differentiating, in a school setting, and I find it extremely useful, as my brain doesn't work that well any more.
We teach young students how to break down intent and find tone in passages, by looking at the choice of wording and punctuation. "Thanks for the thought. I wish I could do this but unfortunately this approach doesn't come naturally to me and, as such, believe it or not, actually takes me more time to put together. So I'm afraid instead you just get my unedited rants Sorry  | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know
Be frank, I think it’s good that people can voice their opinions and talk about nuanced topics. You can’t control how someone reads you, they’ll be those that simply don’t get it, those that use it as evidence of their pre-existing framing of you, and those that will name call you a snowflake, a bully, a feminist or other such name that they take issue with whilst failing to check themselves too, we are all hypocrites and all fail to understand each other’s context or point because often we have no interest in listening but just in speaking at the world as distraction from whatever we would be or should be doing otherwise. People will ascribe tone and tell you what your reaction is rather than ask.
But I’m interested to hear your point.
me too "Well in a sense this conversation we're having highlights the point i.e that there are too great consequences to being wrong or prejudiced or offensive in our culture (or in my case merely voicing provocative ideas)... that these consequences are growing ever bigger... and so the free flow of ideas and honest thought is being severely inhibited... and maybe this is something we, as a culture, should be as worried about as we might the freedom of speech and the press. The apology functions as part of that ecosystem of society needing retribution for someone having been wrong, prejudiced, or offensive. But is it really more important that they are seen to be remorseful and apologetic... or that they've realised their mistake, have decided not to be prejudiced from now on, or have gained insight into how they were offensive? Again, I'm just thinking out loud. Again, that is a dangerous thing with potential repercussions that may in turn lead to me needing to apologise when I was only ever just exploring ideas and asking questions. | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know
I tend to not write long, convoluted posts because I lose track of what I wanted to say and get across.
I break down those kinds of sentences myself, or avoid them.
I get brain ache very easily.
Have you tried being more direct and not using fancy language?
It's called differentiating, in a school setting, and I find it extremely useful, as my brain doesn't work that well any more.
We teach young students how to break down intent and find tone in passages, by looking at the choice of wording and punctuation.
Thanks for the thought. I wish I could do this but unfortunately this approach doesn't come naturally to me and, as such, believe it or not, actually takes me more time to put together. So I'm afraid instead you just get my unedited rants Sorry "Don't apologise. Be true to your words | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know
Be frank, I think it’s good that people can voice their opinions and talk about nuanced topics. You can’t control how someone reads you, they’ll be those that simply don’t get it, those that use it as evidence of their pre-existing framing of you, and those that will name call you a snowflake, a bully, a feminist or other such name that they take issue with whilst failing to check themselves too, we are all hypocrites and all fail to understand each other’s context or point because often we have no interest in listening but just in speaking at the world as distraction from whatever we would be or should be doing otherwise. People will ascribe tone and tell you what your reaction is rather than ask.
But I’m interested to hear your point.
me too
Well in a sense this conversation we're having highlights the point i.e that there are too great consequences to being wrong or prejudiced or offensive in our culture (or in my case merely voicing provocative ideas)... that these consequences are growing ever bigger... and so the free flow of ideas and honest thought is being severely inhibited... and maybe this is something we, as a culture, should be as worried about as we might the freedom of speech and the press.
The apology functions as part of that ecosystem of society needing retribution for someone having been wrong, prejudiced, or offensive. But is it really more important that they are seen to be remorseful and apologetic... or that they've realised their mistake, have decided not to be prejudiced from now on, or have gained insight into how they were offensive?
Again, I'm just thinking out loud. Again, that is a dangerous thing with potential repercussions that may in turn lead to me needing to apologise when I was only ever just exploring ideas and asking questions."I think it means people will stop asking 'difficult' questions for fear of what people might think of them. I'm still asking those types of questions. For now. | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know
Be frank, I think it’s good that people can voice their opinions and talk about nuanced topics. You can’t control how someone reads you, they’ll be those that simply don’t get it, those that use it as evidence of their pre-existing framing of you, and those that will name call you a snowflake, a bully, a feminist or other such name that they take issue with whilst failing to check themselves too, we are all hypocrites and all fail to understand each other’s context or point because often we have no interest in listening but just in speaking at the world as distraction from whatever we would be or should be doing otherwise. People will ascribe tone and tell you what your reaction is rather than ask.
But I’m interested to hear your point.
me too
Well in a sense this conversation we're having highlights the point i.e that there are too great consequences to being wrong or prejudiced or offensive in our culture (or in my case merely voicing provocative ideas)... that these consequences are growing ever bigger... and so the free flow of ideas and honest thought is being severely inhibited... and maybe this is something we, as a culture, should be as worried about as we might the freedom of speech and the press.
The apology functions as part of that ecosystem of society needing retribution for someone having been wrong, prejudiced, or offensive. But is it really more important that they are seen to be remorseful and apologetic... or that they've realised their mistake, have decided not to be prejudiced from now on, or have gained insight into how they were offensive?
Again, I'm just thinking out loud. Again, that is a dangerous thing with potential repercussions that may in turn lead to me needing to apologise when I was only ever just exploring ideas and asking questions."The latter absolutely. But the joy of freedom of thought and speech is that people are entitled to have views that you can personally find abhorrent. I celebrate that right. It doesn’t however remove the right to challenge them, disagree with them though. Or for there to be consequences to their actions, words etc. | |||
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" But I’m interested to hear your point. me too
Well in a sense this conversation we're having highlights the point i.e that there are too great consequences to being wrong or prejudiced or offensive in our culture (or in my case merely voicing provocative ideas)... that these consequences are growing ever bigger... and so the free flow of ideas and honest thought is being severely inhibited... and maybe this is something we, as a culture, should be as worried about as we might the freedom of speech and the press.
The apology functions as part of that ecosystem of society needing retribution for someone having been wrong, prejudiced, or offensive. But is it really more important that they are seen to be remorseful and apologetic... or that they've realised their mistake, have decided not to be prejudiced from now on, or have gained insight into how they were offensive?
Again, I'm just thinking out loud. Again, that is a dangerous thing with potential repercussions that may in turn lead to me needing to apologise when I was only ever just exploring ideas and asking questions."It's not a new or particularly controversial viewpoint. I think there will be a group of people who will hide their true thoughts because they don't the repercussions. Most businesses have guidelines for social media and codes of conduct/contractual obligations that include what you say outside of the work environment. If you said it, it would be temporary and not available to anyone but those you were with. Publishing it makes is accessible to a much wider group and makes it, potentially, permanent. Publishing is the issue. The law does not yet treat social media in the same way as other permanently published material. Conversely, social media has emboldened many more people who now spout thoughts and ideas that they would have kept hidden if they could see people's faces. Where they cause a stir, and get supporters, this gives them license to take it beyond social media. Overall it will balance out. Creativity finds its way. | |||
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" I think it means people will stop asking 'difficult' questions for fear of what people might think of them. I'm still asking those types of questions. For now." Asking questions and receiving answers is probably the best way humanity learns and betters itself. Those who pose the difficult questions will always be as unpopular as they are popular, but I'm glad they're not deterred by the baying jackals. To do that would be no different than turning a blind eye to burning books. | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know
I tend to not write long, convoluted posts because I lose track of what I wanted to say and get across.
I break down those kinds of sentences myself, or avoid them.
I get brain ache very easily.
Have you tried being more direct and not using fancy language?
It's called differentiating, in a school setting, and I find it extremely useful, as my brain doesn't work that well any more.
We teach young students how to break down intent and find tone in passages, by looking at the choice of wording and punctuation.
Thanks for the thought. I wish I could do this but unfortunately this approach doesn't come naturally to me and, as such, believe it or not, actually takes me more time to put together. So I'm afraid instead you just get my unedited rants Sorry "I understand your reticence to air your views on the forums as it can lead to judgement, misinterpretation and vilification for things that you didn’t intend. However I also think that writing that post was just the same as actually writing something that would draw judgement etc. I think it’s never possible to write or post without signalling some form of intent or stand point, so either you post what you mean to say or you say nothing at all. Unless of course your post was your intent all along? | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know
Be frank, I think it’s good that people can voice their opinions and talk about nuanced topics. You can’t control how someone reads you, they’ll be those that simply don’t get it, those that use it as evidence of their pre-existing framing of you, and those that will name call you a snowflake, a bully, a feminist or other such name that they take issue with whilst failing to check themselves too, we are all hypocrites and all fail to understand each other’s context or point because often we have no interest in listening but just in speaking at the world as distraction from whatever we would be or should be doing otherwise. People will ascribe tone and tell you what your reaction is rather than ask.
But I’m interested to hear your point.
me too
Well in a sense this conversation we're having highlights the point i.e that there are too great consequences to being wrong or prejudiced or offensive in our culture (or in my case merely voicing provocative ideas)... that these consequences are growing ever bigger... and so the free flow of ideas and honest thought is being severely inhibited... and maybe this is something we, as a culture, should be as worried about as we might the freedom of speech and the press.
The apology functions as part of that ecosystem of society needing retribution for someone having been wrong, prejudiced, or offensive. But is it really more important that they are seen to be remorseful and apologetic... or that they've realised their mistake, have decided not to be prejudiced from now on, or have gained insight into how they were offensive?
Again, I'm just thinking out loud. Again, that is a dangerous thing with potential repercussions that may in turn lead to me needing to apologise when I was only ever just exploring ideas and asking questions."Thank you for sharing your thoughts and you shouldn't see the need in apologising unless you have truly offended someone and it was justified  | |||
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" But I’m interested to hear your point. me too
Well in a sense this conversation we're having highlights the point i.e that there are too great consequences to being wrong or prejudiced or offensive in our culture (or in my case merely voicing provocative ideas)... that these consequences are growing ever bigger... and so the free flow of ideas and honest thought is being severely inhibited... and maybe this is something we, as a culture, should be as worried about as we might the freedom of speech and the press.
The apology functions as part of that ecosystem of society needing retribution for someone having been wrong, prejudiced, or offensive. But is it really more important that they are seen to be remorseful and apologetic... or that they've realised their mistake, have decided not to be prejudiced from now on, or have gained insight into how they were offensive?
Again, I'm just thinking out loud. Again, that is a dangerous thing with potential repercussions that may in turn lead to me needing to apologise when I was only ever just exploring ideas and asking questions.
It's not a new or particularly controversial viewpoint.
I think there will be a group of people who will hide their true thoughts because they don't the repercussions. Most businesses have guidelines for social media and codes of conduct/contractual obligations that include what you say outside of the work environment. If you said it, it would be temporary and not available to anyone but those you were with. Publishing it makes is accessible to a much wider group and makes it, potentially, permanent.
Publishing is the issue. The law does not yet treat social media in the same way as other permanently published material.
Conversely, social media has emboldened many more people who now spout thoughts and ideas that they would have kept hidden if they could see people's faces. Where they cause a stir, and get supporters, this gives them license to take it beyond social media.
Overall it will balance out.
Creativity finds its way.
"I generally agree with this, in that I think many of us are the product of our environment and learn tolerance and acceptance as our understanding of humankind develops. Not everyone was brought up in accepting and diverse backgrounds and learned to accept differences, in fact many were taught the opposite. Recognising our own prejudices is an important and critical step. I also think that you should only apologise if you recognise your fault and change your behaviour. Lip service apologies to appease mass indignation are worthless | |||
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" But I’m interested to hear your point. me too
Well in a sense this conversation we're having highlights the point i.e that there are too great consequences to being wrong or prejudiced or offensive in our culture (or in my case merely voicing provocative ideas)... that these consequences are growing ever bigger... and so the free flow of ideas and honest thought is being severely inhibited... and maybe this is something we, as a culture, should be as worried about as we might the freedom of speech and the press.
The apology functions as part of that ecosystem of society needing retribution for someone having been wrong, prejudiced, or offensive. But is it really more important that they are seen to be remorseful and apologetic... or that they've realised their mistake, have decided not to be prejudiced from now on, or have gained insight into how they were offensive?
Again, I'm just thinking out loud. Again, that is a dangerous thing with potential repercussions that may in turn lead to me needing to apologise when I was only ever just exploring ideas and asking questions.
It's not a new or particularly controversial viewpoint.
I think there will be a group of people who will hide their true thoughts because they don't the repercussions. Most businesses have guidelines for social media and codes of conduct/contractual obligations that include what you say outside of the work environment. If you said it, it would be temporary and not available to anyone but those you were with. Publishing it makes is accessible to a much wider group and makes it, potentially, permanent.
Publishing is the issue. The law does not yet treat social media in the same way as other permanently published material.
Conversely, social media has emboldened many more people who now spout thoughts and ideas that they would have kept hidden if they could see people's faces. Where they cause a stir, and get supporters, this gives them license to take it beyond social media.
Overall it will balance out.
Creativity finds its way.
I generally agree with this, in that I think many of us are the product of our environment and learn tolerance and acceptance as our understanding of humankind develops. Not everyone was brought up in accepting and diverse backgrounds and learned to accept differences, in fact many were taught the opposite. Recognising our own prejudices is an important and critical step.
I also think that you should only apologise if you recognise your fault and change your behaviour. Lip service apologies to appease mass indignation are worthless"That is true | |||
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"I grew up listening to comedians and people talking about black people in a derogatory way , and people of other races too . Feminism was women burning their bras and the women in the Ford factory going on strike . My Mum stayed at home to raise us kids till we were teenagers . My Dad would watch programmes like Love thy Neighbour , and Till Death Do Us Part laughing and grimacing any time anything remotely gay came up . So this guy , who made some bloody great films , put some poor taste jokes on his twitter account ten years ago , and now has been sacked from making the third Guardians of the Galaxy movie . It’s a sign if the current political correctness we all ‘ should be observing ‘ , and the fact that these tweets were resurrected by a left wing snowflake to evoke this reaction saddens me . " It used to be one guy telling all the distasteful racist, sexist, homophobic and disabled jokes. These days, you have to have one guy for each. The dressing rooms at comedy clubs must get terribly crowded | |||
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"If people won't forgive there's no point in apologising." Maybe some folk should stop worrying about being forgiven in this rather fickle world of social media? | |||
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"If people won't forgive there's no point in apologising." Is there a point to forgiving if people won't apologise or aren't remorseful? | |||
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"My mistake in suggesting it was a left wing snowflake calling Gunn out . It was Infact a right wing hypocrite who did it . The same guy who tweeted jokes of a similar nature in 2012 "Left wing is snowflake and right wing is hypocrite, but thanks for correcting your mistake. I appreciate it. | |||
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"no - they should all be shot dead! then there would not be a single human being on the planet - it would be a much nicer place and Mother Nature could get on with repairing the immense damage this disgusting human race has done to the planet." Are you volunteering to do the shooting or offering yourself up for the firing squad to get the ball rolling? I assume you are part of this disgusting human race? | |||
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"no - they should all be shot dead! then there would not be a single human being on the planet - it would be a much nicer place and Mother Nature could get on with repairing the immense damage this disgusting human race has done to the planet. Are you volunteering to do the shooting or offering yourself up for the firing squad to get the ball rolling? I assume you are part of this disgusting human race? " if you were perceptive, you would see that I was effectively stating that we are ALL guilty of saying things we wish we hadn't - and yes I include myself in that - and I do stand by my comments i.e. the human race is the worst thing ever to pollute this planet - not my fault I`m one of them - blame my parents | |||
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"no - they should all be shot dead! then there would not be a single human being on the planet - it would be a much nicer place and Mother Nature could get on with repairing the immense damage this disgusting human race has done to the planet. Are you volunteering to do the shooting or offering yourself up for the firing squad to get the ball rolling? I assume you are part of this disgusting human race? if you were perceptive, you would see that I was effectively stating that we are ALL guilty of saying things we wish we hadn't - and yes I include myself in that - and I do stand by my comments i.e. the human race is the worst thing ever to pollute this planet - not my fault I`m one of them - blame my parents" Thanks for the lesson in perception. I must have missed that one all those years ago in school. | |||
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"If people won't forgive there's no point in apologising. Is there a point to forgiving if people won't apologise or aren't remorseful?" Good point. | |||
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"If people won't forgive there's no point in apologising. Is there a point to forgiving if people won't apologise or aren't remorseful? Good point. " I think that most forgiving and apologising is done first and foremost for the benefit of the person doing it. That's not to say that's bad but it's rare that either is an entirely altruistic act in my opinion. | |||
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"If people won't forgive there's no point in apologising. Is there a point to forgiving if people won't apologise or aren't remorseful? Good point. I think that most forgiving and apologising is done first and foremost for the benefit of the person doing it. That's not to say that's bad but it's rare that either is an entirely altruistic act in my opinion." I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing though. I've been trying to apologise to an old friend for months. I've given up on the friendship now and I just want my apology heard for my own sake. | |||
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"If people won't forgive there's no point in apologising. Is there a point to forgiving if people won't apologise or aren't remorseful? Good point. I think that most forgiving and apologising is done first and foremost for the benefit of the person doing it. That's not to say that's bad but it's rare that either is an entirely altruistic act in my opinion. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing though. I've been trying to apologise to an old friend for months. I've given up on the friendship now and I just want my apology heard for my own sake. "No I don't think it's a bad thing either. Closure has to start somewhere and someone has to make the first move. If the other person won't listen your intentions are good | |||
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"If people won't forgive there's no point in apologising. Is there a point to forgiving if people won't apologise or aren't remorseful? Good point. I think that most forgiving and apologising is done first and foremost for the benefit of the person doing it. That's not to say that's bad but it's rare that either is an entirely altruistic act in my opinion. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing though. I've been trying to apologise to an old friend for months. I've given up on the friendship now and I just want my apology heard for my own sake.
No I don't think it's a bad thing either. Closure has to start somewhere and someone has to make the first move. If the other person won't listen your intentions are good "It's getting to the point where I want to tell my dear ex friend to bleeping well bleep the bleeping bleep off.  | |||
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"If people won't forgive there's no point in apologising. Is there a point to forgiving if people won't apologise or aren't remorseful? Good point. I think that most forgiving and apologising is done first and foremost for the benefit of the person doing it. That's not to say that's bad but it's rare that either is an entirely altruistic act in my opinion. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing though. I've been trying to apologise to an old friend for months. I've given up on the friendship now and I just want my apology heard for my own sake.
No I don't think it's a bad thing either. Closure has to start somewhere and someone has to make the first move. If the other person won't listen your intentions are good
It's getting to the point where I want to tell my dear ex friend to bleeping well bleep the bleeping bleep off. "You might as well, they ain't listening anyway  .
Whatever makes you feel good, they've obviously opted out. | |||
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" www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jul/26/was-james-gunn-the-first-undeserving-victim-of-hollywoods-new-zero-tolerance-policy ' In a film industry that has become rife with hasty, face-saving, PR-vetted apologies, James Gunn’s read more sincerely than most. “My words of nearly a decade ago were, at the time, totally failed and unfortunate efforts to be provocative,” said the director of the first two mega-grossing Guardians of the Galaxy blockbusters. “I have regretted them for many years since – not just because they were stupid, not at all funny, wildly insensitive, and certainly not provocative like I had hoped, but also because they don’t reflect the person I am today or have been for some time.” ' 'The director of the first two Guardians of the Galaxy films was dismissed from the third movie after outrage over bad-taste Twitter jokes he made between 2008 and 2011. Did he deserve to go – or was it a witch-hunt?' Should people be forgiven for things they've said in the past?" personally I think some of the things lately are ridiculous. I mean we went to the x factor auditions and the guy keeping us entertained in between was pretty inappropriate at times but it was funny. | |||
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"Blimey, having just read some of the tweets I would say his "jokes" are not funny. I would also say he is 51 so hardly a youngster at the time who can get away with saying " it was my age" Most people wouldn't even think of the things that came out of his mouth let alone air them I found the 'sincerity' of his apology didn't sit with his age now and his age then. " Plus if he was truly sorry he wouldn't have waited until it was forced onto him | |||
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"There's something I've been thinking I'd like to say in relation to this issue. But recent events on here have made me realise that trying to voice complex nuanced thoughts on a public forum can leave one prone to misreading by those who either can't tell where you're coming from or what it is you're trying to get at... and it can lead to a degree of trolling by those who have misread what you wrote, either wantonly or not, especially if what you're trying to say is novel and perhaps a bit contentious
Ironically this wariness on my part goes some way to indicating the problem I was going to suggest. I wonder if we as a culture have a healthy view on being wrong, on being prejudiced, on being offensive. And I think the need to apologise feeds into this. Can I be frank about what I think is the real issue we need to address as a culture without people misreading my ponderings and using that as ammunition against me? I don't know "Good points. I see that right wing clown Cernovich was behind resurfacing the tweets. | |||
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"So it seems this was agenda driven politics by the alt right or far right trump supporting muppets who got all butt hurt by this directors liberal views and politics .They dig up these horrible things he said and called him out. successful silencing another liberal.Such is their nefarious agenda. As I've always known the real snowflakes getting their knickers twisted are the right .The same people who are forever butt hurt over anything said that prevents their right to be racists.Now they've gone full snowflake in July..,Just brilliant. "Can we conclude that two wrongs don't make a right? This is the right using the oversensitivity of the left to its advantage. Everyone needs to chill out. The tweets were very distasteful but I don't think the principle of people being silenced by the court of public opinion so easily is a good one. | |||
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"So it seems this was agenda driven politics by the alt right or far right trump supporting muppets who got all butt hurt by this directors liberal views and politics .They dig up these horrible things he said and called him out. successful silencing another liberal.Such is their nefarious agenda. As I've always known the real snowflakes getting their knickers twisted are the right .The same people who are forever butt hurt over anything said that prevents their right to be racists.Now they've gone full snowflake in July..,Just brilliant.
Can we conclude that two wrongs don't make a right?
This is the right using the oversensitivity of the left to its advantage. Everyone needs to chill out.
The tweets were very distasteful but I don't think the principle of people being silenced by the court of public opinion so easily is a good one. "So when the right gets called out for a politically driven lynching it's the fault of the left and they should all calm down and when the right accuse the left of it .It's business as usual snowflakes.. Well played! Alternative facts and reality still have a part to play I see...
Which pill should I take to believe this crock of shit.Blue or red... | |||
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"Everyone (almost) deserves forgiveness, even if it's just forgiving themselves. Being forgiven doesn't mean that things can return to how they were before you needed that forgiveness. Context as usual is key. Some actions can be forgiven but not allowed to go unpunished or forgotten. There is a culture of witch hunting and virtue signalling in the entertainment industry at the moment. People who watched these things going on and didn't challenge them are now claiming the moral high ground. The whole thing's distasteful." | |||
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"So it seems this was agenda driven politics by the alt right or far right trump supporting muppets who got all butt hurt by this directors liberal views and politics .They dig up these horrible things he said and called him out. successful silencing another liberal.Such is their nefarious agenda. As I've always known the real snowflakes getting their knickers twisted are the right .The same people who are forever butt hurt over anything said that prevents their right to be racists.Now they've gone full snowflake in July..,Just brilliant.
Can we conclude that two wrongs don't make a right?
This is the right using the oversensitivity of the left to its advantage. Everyone needs to chill out.
The tweets were very distasteful but I don't think the principle of people being silenced by the court of public opinion so easily is a good one.
So when the right gets called out for a politically driven lynching it's the fault of the left and they should all calm down and when the right accuse the left of it .It's business as usual snowflakes..
Well played! Alternative facts and reality still have a part to play I see...
Which pill should I take to believe this crock of shit.Blue or red..."I've no clue what you are on about. Maybe a chill pill | |||
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_loswingers, thank you x