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"The lad is only 17....none of you lot had everything figured out by that age so all the 'dud he not realise' 'I'm surprised he didn't know' posts are a little mean in my opinion. Sadly though there are a few industries that pay no attention to workers rights etc and the only thing people can do is either like it or lump it. Hospitality is one of them. Working in a kitchen is hot, hard, relentless work and breaks are often dictated by how busy a place is. I've worked in some kitchens where you can be rushing about like a mad thing early doors then you have a slump then it's hectic again. I would suggest, as he is young, finding some sort of career advice service (if they exist) and talking through his options with them. " It's more that he was training to be a chef at college and none of the adults at that college ever thought it was worth telling the class that chefs have one of the most brutal work schedules you'll find in any industry. I think that was quite irresponsible of them. | |||
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"The lad is only 17....none of you lot had everything figured out by that age so all the 'dud he not realise' 'I'm surprised he didn't know' posts are a little mean in my opinion. Sadly though there are a few industries that pay no attention to workers rights etc and the only thing people can do is either like it or lump it. Hospitality is one of them. Working in a kitchen is hot, hard, relentless work and breaks are often dictated by how busy a place is. I've worked in some kitchens where you can be rushing about like a mad thing early doors then you have a slump then it's hectic again. I would suggest, as he is young, finding some sort of career advice service (if they exist) and talking through his options with them. It's more that he was training to be a chef at college and none of the adults at that college ever thought it was worth telling the class that chefs have one of the most brutal work schedules you'll find in any industry. I think that was quite irresponsible of them. " All employers lie..... Where I work they are doing a massive national recruitment campaign talking about how wonderful the career is, they never tell you the shit bits lol I agree that if this work experience was sourced through the college then they should be monitoring the hours and breaks etc. And perhaps they should be more open about the hours chefs are required to work but very often what we are taught a x what we experience in real life are very different. | |||
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"My son is doing an apprenticeship as a chef, after receiving a job offer from where he was working part-time, (while at college doing a chef course), to put him through his certificated training on a very good salary. The place that he is working has opportunities, status and a standard that would be impossible to find locally anywhere else, and in many ways is a golden opportunity for him, almost something that would come once, at an establishment of this nature, for someone so young and previously inexperience. He is working in a very busy, organised, high status and well run kitchen and mostly enjoys his job. The problem is he's only 17 and he's working extremely long hours and without the breaks that legally he is supposed to get. He has occasionally worked in excess of 9 hours without even a 15-minute break. He is working a minimum of a 50 hour week. He has tried discussing it with the head chef, but they have said that a chef job involves extremely hard work and long hours and if he wants it this is what he has to do. They are not at all receptive to the problem, although they do treat him very well apart from this issue. He doesn't want to cause any trouble, and he doesn't want to find another job, it is unlikely he would find anything on this kind of salary, without even the fact they are going to be paying for his accreditation. He is now getting so tired and fed up as he feels he is doing nothing else but work apart from on his two, midweek days off two days off. He doesn't have much social life these days, with long working hours, and not a lot of time to see his friends or behave like a teenager does. I don't really see what I can do to help, if we go in talking about a acas, and legal breaks, I don't really think it's going to help him, and his mum contacting them up would seem very juvenile in the situation adult world that he is in. Has anybody got any suggestions, or have experienced something similar? I really understand how is feeling, and want to support him, but neither of us have been able to think of a way, and I feel if he carries on he's going to end up leaving, and giving up an irreplaceable opportunity, although, I understand totally why he would do that. He feels he is unable to change the situation, and just for information purposes, he also would not return to any kind of college or school situation, e feels that he has put that all behind now apart from hopefully getting his accreditation on the job. Thanks for any advice x" As someone who used to run a restaurant I know that the hours are brutal and the work can be stressful. As others have said, its the nature of the beast. That doesnt mean its right, however it does sound like he has a good role and a great opportunity, doing something he enjoys. I hope he seizes it with both hands and goes on to great things. Good luck to your young man. | |||
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"As his Mum your? instinct is to make things better for your child, however I would suggest that rather than trying to change the whole catering industry, you support his ambition and explain that his hard work now will bring rewards later. I too missed most of my youth through working in the big hotels (six days a week then). It gave me a grounding which saw me travel the world working. He is at an age where he feels being different to his mates is difficult, guide him, remind him of where his hard work can lead and don't miss this fantastic opportunity!" Very well said.  | |||
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"My son is doing an apprenticeship as a chef, after receiving a job offer from where he was working part-time, (while at college doing a chef course), to put him through his certificated training on a very good salary. The place that he is working has opportunities, status and a standard that would be impossible to find locally anywhere else, and in many ways is a golden opportunity for him, almost something that would come once, at an establishment of this nature, for someone so young and previously inexperience. He is working in a very busy, organised, high status and well run kitchen and mostly enjoys his job. The problem is he's only 17 and he's working extremely long hours and without the breaks that legally he is supposed to get. He has occasionally worked in excess of 9 hours without even a 15-minute break. He is working a minimum of a 50 hour week. He has tried discussing it with the head chef, but they have said that a chef job involves extremely hard work and long hours and if he wants it this is what he has to do. They are not at all receptive to the problem, although they do treat him very well apart from this issue. He doesn't want to cause any trouble, and he doesn't want to find another job, it is unlikely he would find anything on this kind of salary, without even the fact they are going to be paying for his accreditation. He is now getting so tired and fed up as he feels he is doing nothing else but work apart from on his two, midweek days off two days off. He doesn't have much social life these days, with long working hours, and not a lot of time to see his friends or behave like a teenager does. I don't really see what I can do to help, if we go in talking about a acas, and legal breaks, I don't really think it's going to help him, and his mum contacting them up would seem very juvenile in the situation adult world that he is in. Has anybody got any suggestions, or have experienced something similar? I really understand how is feeling, and want to support him, but neither of us have been able to think of a way, and I feel if he carries on he's going to end up leaving, and giving up an irreplaceable opportunity, although, I understand totally why he would do that. He feels he is unable to change the situation, and just for information purposes, he also would not return to any kind of college or school situation, e feels that he has put that all behind now apart from hopefully getting his accreditation on the job. Thanks for any advice x As someone who used to run a restaurant I know that the hours are brutal and the work can be stressful. " I have no personal experience but it's got to be one of the hardest business models to make work. It's got to be one of the most competitive industries there is, anti-social hours and all your hard work can be jepordised by a Jack ass trying to be clever with a 1 star review. There was a rather nice Chinese restaurant in Basingstoke, but then the enormous Chinese company that had an office in Basingstoke, moved to Reading. So there goes half their customer base through no fault of their own. Brutal. " As others have said, its the nature of the beast. That doesnt mean its right, however it does sound like he has a good role and a great opportunity, doing something he enjoys. I hope he seizes it with both hands and goes on to great things. Good luck to your young man." | |||
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"My son is doing an apprenticeship as a chef, after receiving a job offer from where he was working part-time, (while at college doing a chef course), to put him through his certificated training on a very good salary. The place that he is working has opportunities, status and a standard that would be impossible to find locally anywhere else, and in many ways is a golden opportunity for him, almost something that would come once, at an establishment of this nature, for someone so young and previously inexperience. He is working in a very busy, organised, high status and well run kitchen and mostly enjoys his job. The problem is he's only 17 and he's working extremely long hours and without the breaks that legally he is supposed to get. He has occasionally worked in excess of 9 hours without even a 15-minute break. He is working a minimum of a 50 hour week. He has tried discussing it with the head chef, but they have said that a chef job involves extremely hard work and long hours and if he wants it this is what he has to do. They are not at all receptive to the problem, although they do treat him very well apart from this issue. He doesn't want to cause any trouble, and he doesn't want to find another job, it is unlikely he would find anything on this kind of salary, without even the fact they are going to be paying for his accreditation. He is now getting so tired and fed up as he feels he is doing nothing else but work apart from on his two, midweek days off two days off. He doesn't have much social life these days, with long working hours, and not a lot of time to see his friends or behave like a teenager does. I don't really see what I can do to help, if we go in talking about a acas, and legal breaks, I don't really think it's going to help him, and his mum contacting them up would seem very juvenile in the situation adult world that he is in. Has anybody got any suggestions, or have experienced something similar? I really understand how is feeling, and want to support him, but neither of us have been able to think of a way, and I feel if he carries on he's going to end up leaving, and giving up an irreplaceable opportunity, although, I understand totally why he would do that. He feels he is unable to change the situation, and just for information purposes, he also would not return to any kind of college or school situation, e feels that he has put that all behind now apart from hopefully getting his accreditation on the job. Thanks for any advice x" Welcome to chef life. I 1ce did a 12 hour shift with no brakes just cos it wos so bizey. It sounds like he's in a very bizey kitchen. The problem with kitchens like that is you don't get time to have a brake. So you haf to pik / eat on the job. It's the Onley way to keep going. I will say is if he's now not enjoying the job is is the rite job ? I'm not saying quit chefing but maybe he needs a less bizey kitchen. | |||
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"As his Mum your? instinct is to make things better for your child, however I would suggest that rather than trying to change the whole catering industry, you support his ambition and explain that his hard work now will bring rewards later. I too missed most of my youth through working in the big hotels (six days a week then). It gave me a grounding which saw me travel the world working. He is at an age where he feels being different to his mates is difficult, guide him, remind him of where his hard work can lead and don't miss this fantastic opportunity!" Wise words...... | |||
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"My son is doing an apprenticeship as a chef, after receiving a job offer from where he was working part-time, (while at college doing a chef course), to put him through his certificated training on a very good salary. The place that he is working has opportunities, status and a standard that would be impossible to find locally anywhere else, and in many ways is a golden opportunity for him, almost something that would come once, at an establishment of this nature, for someone so young and previously inexperience. He is working in a very busy, organised, high status and well run kitchen and mostly enjoys his job. The problem is he's only 17 and he's working extremely long hours and without the breaks that legally he is supposed to get. He has occasionally worked in excess of 9 hours without even a 15-minute break. He is working a minimum of a 50 hour week. He has tried discussing it with the head chef, but they have said that a chef job involves extremely hard work and long hours and if he wants it this is what he has to do. They are not at all receptive to the problem, although they do treat him very well apart from this issue. He doesn't want to cause any trouble, and he doesn't want to find another job, it is unlikely he would find anything on this kind of salary, without even the fact they are going to be paying for his accreditation. He is now getting so tired and fed up as he feels he is doing nothing else but work apart from on his two, midweek days off two days off. He doesn't have much social life these days, with long working hours, and not a lot of time to see his friends or behave like a teenager does. I don't really see what I can do to help, if we go in talking about a acas, and legal breaks, I don't really think it's going to help him, and his mum contacting them up would seem very juvenile in the situation adult world that he is in. Has anybody got any suggestions, or have experienced something similar? I really understand how is feeling, and want to support him, but neither of us have been able to think of a way, and I feel if he carries on he's going to end up leaving, and giving up an irreplaceable opportunity, although, I understand totally why he would do that. He feels he is unable to change the situation, and just for information purposes, he also would not return to any kind of college or school situation, e feels that he has put that all behind now apart from hopefully getting his accreditation on the job. Thanks for any advice x As someone who used to run a restaurant I know that the hours are brutal and the work can be stressful. I have no personal experience but it's got to be one of the hardest business models to make work. It's got to be one of the most competitive industries there is, anti-social hours and all your hard work can be jepordised by a Jack ass trying to be clever with a 1 star review. There was a rather nice Chinese restaurant in Basingstoke, but then the enormous Chinese company that had an office in Basingstoke, moved to Reading. So there goes half their customer base through no fault of their own. Brutal. As others have said, its the nature of the beast. That doesnt mean its right, however it does sound like he has a good role and a great opportunity, doing something he enjoys. I hope he seizes it with both hands and goes on to great things. Good luck to your young man." I don't know what's worse, the working environment or the customers who have no idea how to treat the staff..... Actually I do know what's worse, at least the staff are in the same boat so pull together. | |||
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"My son is doing an apprenticeship as a chef, after receiving a job offer from where he was working part-time, (while at college doing a chef course), to put him through his certificated training on a very good salary. The place that he is working has opportunities, status and a standard that would be impossible to find locally anywhere else, and in many ways is a golden opportunity for him, almost something that would come once, at an establishment of this nature, for someone so young and previously inexperience. He is working in a very busy, organised, high status and well run kitchen and mostly enjoys his job. The problem is he's only 17 and he's working extremely long hours and without the breaks that legally he is supposed to get. He has occasionally worked in excess of 9 hours without even a 15-minute break. He is working a minimum of a 50 hour week. He has tried discussing it with the head chef, but they have said that a chef job involves extremely hard work and long hours and if he wants it this is what he has to do. They are not at all receptive to the problem, although they do treat him very well apart from this issue. He doesn't want to cause any trouble, and he doesn't want to find another job, it is unlikely he would find anything on this kind of salary, without even the fact they are going to be paying for his accreditation. He is now getting so tired and fed up as he feels he is doing nothing else but work apart from on his two, midweek days off two days off. He doesn't have much social life these days, with long working hours, and not a lot of time to see his friends or behave like a teenager does. I don't really see what I can do to help, if we go in talking about a acas, and legal breaks, I don't really think it's going to help him, and his mum contacting them up would seem very juvenile in the situation adult world that he is in. Has anybody got any suggestions, or have experienced something similar? I really understand how is feeling, and want to support him, but neither of us have been able to think of a way, and I feel if he carries on he's going to end up leaving, and giving up an irreplaceable opportunity, although, I understand totally why he would do that. He feels he is unable to change the situation, and just for information purposes, he also would not return to any kind of college or school situation, e feels that he has put that all behind now apart from hopefully getting his accreditation on the job. Thanks for any advice x" I used to be a chef and yes that's the life! I was lucky as didn't work split shifts but no time off at all Christmas, Easter or summer holidays and was a single mum with 2 kids! Unfortunately it's the nature of the job! | |||
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"All the previous posters on this thread display an appalling attitude and are just plainly wrong. The law is the law. You cannot just say - this industry doesn't employ black people; that industry won't employ disabled people; and the other industry wouldn't employ women. Junior doctors used to work hundreds of hours a week. Now they are not allowed to. No hospital can say that they still have to. There is no difference here. The person is 17, and in an apprenticeship, because they have to be in some kind of education, being under 18. An apprenticeship counts. Clearly they are with a provider who should not be an apprentice provider with their attitude. They are supposed to be training this person, not using them as a slave. They are being partly funded by the Education and Skills Funding Agency. A complaint should be made to them. A 17 year old has a right to not work more than 8 hours per day, 40 hours per week, to 2 consecutive days' rest per week and 12 hour rest between shifts. They are also entitled to a break of 30 minutes after 4.5 hours. The only concession to the catering/bakery/hospitality trade is that they are allowed to work up to midnight and from 4am, which they would not be allowed to do, say if they were an apprentice painter and decorator. The person in this case should make a complaint to the apprentice provider and if nothing is done, then they can bring a complaint to the employment tribunal for breach of the working time regulations. They also may have a personal injury claim if the illegal hours are affecting their health. The person should also leave and find a responsible apprenticeship provider. " Have you ever worked in the hospitality trade? I'm again quite sure the term "as per business needs" and others that say the same thing come into play and are commonplace, and are also recognised by those that enforce the law. So, you've learned from reading this thread that's it's a brutal environment to work in, and hope opens your eyes, I also hope you aren't one of those cunts that arrives 5 mins before the kitchen closes and orders starters, a well done steak and then complains they want dessert when everyone is waiting to go home after slogging their guts out for the last 16 hours. | |||
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"All the previous posters on this thread display an appalling attitude and are just plainly wrong. The law is the law. You cannot just say - this industry doesn't employ black people; that industry won't employ disabled people; and the other industry wouldn't employ women. Junior doctors used to work hundreds of hours a week. Now they are not allowed to. No hospital can say that they still have to. There is no difference here. The person is 17, and in an apprenticeship, because they have to be in some kind of education, being under 18. An apprenticeship counts. Clearly they are with a provider who should not be an apprentice provider with their attitude. They are supposed to be training this person, not using them as a slave. They are being partly funded by the Education and Skills Funding Agency. A complaint should be made to them. A 17 year old has a right to not work more than 8 hours per day, 40 hours per week, to 2 consecutive days' rest per week and 12 hour rest between shifts. They are also entitled to a break of 30 minutes after 4.5 hours. The only concession to the catering/bakery/hospitality trade is that they are allowed to work up to midnight and from 4am, which they would not be allowed to do, say if they were an apprentice painter and decorator. The person in this case should make a complaint to the apprentice provider and if nothing is done, then they can bring a complaint to the employment tribunal for breach of the working time regulations. They also may have a personal injury claim if the illegal hours are affecting their health. The person should also leave and find a responsible apprenticeship provider. Have you ever worked in the hospitality trade? I'm again quite sure the term "as per business needs" and others that say the same thing come into play and are commonplace, and are also recognised by those that enforce the law. So, you've learned from reading this thread that's it's a brutal environment to work in, and hope opens your eyes, I also hope you aren't one of those cunts that arrives 5 mins before the kitchen closes and orders starters, a well done steak and then complains they want dessert when everyone is waiting to go home after slogging their guts out for the last 16 hours." O i carnt stand thos sort of customers. You spend about 30 minutes cleaning down the kitchen redey to go home and then.... Beep or ding... A larst minit order. Then you haf to re fire (heat) everything Open and re date stok. Cook wot ever the order is. Then re cleen the hole kitchen AGEN And wen you've dun all that your about 1 hour or mor parst your finishing time. And you don't get over time its all the same pay. | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW." Maintaining continuity of service or production. That's also law. Shit ain't it. | |||
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"That does not apply to under 18s. Read the law again." that info was pulled from "young people at work - a guide for 16 & 17 year olds" | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW." You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? | |||
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"I used to work hospitality as a barman, and our manager hated bar staff. She used to see it that if we werent serving anyone and everything was clean, so we were just standing around chatting (but not sitting down), that WAS our break. Now, after food had been served, all of the kitchen staff were put on break, but the bar staff had to keep on working. Now, I was listed down to finish once bar was closed (which is around 1 AM). But we were forced to stay behind until everything had been tidied and cleaned, even doing the jobs that the waiting staff were meant to do. So, my standard shift at this place was 3pm till 8am. With no break. While the waiting staff were 7pm till 8am and had two 15 minute breaks, which was enforeced. They were also given food while bar was given nothing. When I quit, I reported the institution I was working at. Talking to someone who I worke dbar with there, they told me that not long after I quit, a whole lot of reforms took place. Now bar staff get regular breaks, and also get fed. While a constant service needs to be provided in these situations, staff are ENTITLED to regular breaks. A simple system is to rotate the breaks. So one person at a time, or during a quiet moment. " Your manager was shit. However, the jobs need to be done before the business is closed, simple and shit as that. EHO can visit at any time, if they arrive first thing in the morning and there have been jobs left... goodbye 5* health and hygiene rating. | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? " No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense. | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense." May I ask your job? You seem to know so much about the law, and if that's the case it seems there are many many slaves in the hospitality industry you can help. | |||
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"I used to work hospitality as a barman, and our manager hated bar staff. She used to see it that if we werent serving anyone and everything was clean, so we were just standing around chatting (but not sitting down), that WAS our break. Now, after food had been served, all of the kitchen staff were put on break, but the bar staff had to keep on working. Now, I was listed down to finish once bar was closed (which is around 1 AM). But we were forced to stay behind until everything had been tidied and cleaned, even doing the jobs that the waiting staff were meant to do. So, my standard shift at this place was 3pm till 8am. With no break. While the waiting staff were 7pm till 8am and had two 15 minute breaks, which was enforeced. They were also given food while bar was given nothing. When I quit, I reported the institution I was working at. Talking to someone who I worke dbar with there, they told me that not long after I quit, a whole lot of reforms took place. Now bar staff get regular breaks, and also get fed. While a constant service needs to be provided in these situations, staff are ENTITLED to regular breaks. A simple system is to rotate the breaks. So one person at a time, or during a quiet moment. Your manager was shit. However, the jobs need to be done before the business is closed, simple and shit as that. EHO can visit at any time, if they arrive first thing in the morning and there have been jobs left... goodbye 5* health and hygiene rating. " I was forced to stay simply due to the fact that surprisingly, I was one of the only people in that kitchen that had a food hygiene certificate. The damn manager thought it was ok to mop the floor with week old dirty water. | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense." There's an emotional intelligence thread running, do drop by and leave your thoughts on the matter as they would make for interesting reading | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense. There's an emotional intelligence thread running, do drop by and leave your thoughts on the matter as they would make for interesting reading " The law does not deal with emotion. | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense. There's an emotional intelligence thread running, do drop by and leave your thoughts on the matter as they would make for interesting reading The law does not deal with emotion." I really would appreciate it if you could answer my question regarding your experience in the law and your ability to save us slaves. | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense. There's an emotional intelligence thread running, do drop by and leave your thoughts on the matter as they would make for interesting reading The law does not deal with emotion." Sadly the Law is broken a lot by employers. Mainly those who do employ young people. Why? Because young people are so desperate to do well, they are unlikely to report the business, so these companies can get away with it. | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere." The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense. There's an emotional intelligence thread running, do drop by and leave your thoughts on the matter as they would make for interesting reading The law does not deal with emotion." Did anyone else read that in a Judge Dredd accent? | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense. There's an emotional intelligence thread running, do drop by and leave your thoughts on the matter as they would make for interesting reading The law does not deal with emotion. Did anyone else read that in a Judge Dredd accent?" Maybe he us Judge Dredd  | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense. May I ask your job? " He is THE LAW | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense. May I ask your job? " He is THE LAW | |||
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"All the previous posters on this thread display an appalling attitude and are just plainly wrong. The law is the law. You cannot just say - this industry doesn't employ black people; that industry won't employ disabled people; and the other industry wouldn't employ women. Junior doctors used to work hundreds of hours a week. Now they are not allowed to. No hospital can say that they still have to. There is no difference here. The person is 17, and in an apprenticeship, because they have to be in some kind of education, being under 18. An apprenticeship counts. Clearly they are with a provider who should not be an apprentice provider with their attitude. They are supposed to be training this person, not using them as a slave. They are being partly funded by the Education and Skills Funding Agency. A complaint should be made to them. A 17 year old has a right to not work more than 8 hours per day, 40 hours per week, to 2 consecutive days' rest per week and 12 hour rest between shifts. They are also entitled to a break of 30 minutes after 4.5 hours. The only concession to the catering/bakery/hospitality trade is that they are allowed to work up to midnight and from 4am, which they would not be allowed to do, say if they were an apprentice painter and decorator. The person in this case should make a complaint to the apprentice provider and if nothing is done, then they can bring a complaint to the employment tribunal for breach of the working time regulations. They also may have a personal injury claim if the illegal hours are affecting their health. The person should also leave and find a responsible apprenticeship provider. " My son worked his apprenticeship on a diary farm from 16 and worked every single day apart from the 2 days at college and at certain times of the year ie harvesting would work past 12 hours a day though why would we complain? It is the nature of the job he was apprenticed to do, his bosses were fantastic people and yes he could have said I only work (fill on with the rules) but he got glowing references and the offer of 3 different fantastic jobs as a result of his hard work. And guess what? When I was working my butt off cheffing and he was working his butt off on his apprenticeship the hard work never killed us and the rewards were outstanding! Sometimes too many rules and ..... | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it" Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful. | |||
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"The law is there to protect people, especially young workers. They are entitled to stand up for their rights and not be treated as a slave. The person here DOES NOT have to and SHOULD NOT HAVE TO put up with the treatment that he is receiving. THAT IS THE LAW. You know that putting things in capital letters doesn't make what you wrote any more credible and actually makes you look worse? No, I am emphasising the law. Everyone else is talking nonsense. May I ask your job? He is THE LAW " | |||
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"Long n short. It's brutal. Normally the pay is dire (so fair play to your young un) Say goodbye to social life. Say goodbye to family time. If pot wash breaks it's all hands on deck hand washing and he'll be lucky to be out of there by 3am. It's can be a thankless job where you feel undervalued and yes, like a slave. The team you have around you become your new family, good and bad. IF you put the hard work in, and make huge sacrifices it can pay off eventually." I thought Chefs were generally the best paid of the staff? Not that waiters, cleaners or bar staff are paid well. But in the relative sense i thought Chefs did ok? | |||
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"The people in this thread astonish me. The law is there to protect people, but you are all saying that employers are right to ignore it, and that employees should just "put up and shut up" Yet 99% of the posters on the forum are left-wing, hate the Conservative Party. Suddenly laws, trade unions and employee rights can all go to hell. You are all just insane. Next thing you won't care about health and safety, minimum wage, payment of wages, holidays with pay, equal pay, discrimination. It's just catering. Put up and shut up. I tried to help, to set out the law and a bunch of idiots tell me that I am wrong. " I shall ask again. What is your experience in the law. It's "just" catering... Well... I do hope next time you're in hospital the chefs take their breaks the law entitles them to, and when YOU miss the meal that could help you on the road to recovery and give you the vitamins you need, your complaint is met with "It's just catering" | |||
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"Long n short. It's brutal. Normally the pay is dire (so fair play to your young un) Say goodbye to social life. Say goodbye to family time. If pot wash breaks it's all hands on deck hand washing and he'll be lucky to be out of there by 3am. It's can be a thankless job where you feel undervalued and yes, like a slave. The team you have around you become your new family, good and bad. IF you put the hard work in, and make huge sacrifices it can pay off eventually. I thought Chefs were generally the best paid of the staff? Not that waiters, cleaners or bar staff are paid well. But in the relative sense i thought Chefs did ok? " They do better the others. However only our second and head chef are on more than minimum wage. The others are on minimum the same as the waiting staff. | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful." All customers should disappear | |||
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"The people in this thread astonish me. The law is there to protect people, but you are all saying that employers are right to ignore it, and that employees should just "put up and shut up" Yet 99% of the posters on the forum are left-wing, hate the Conservative Party. Suddenly laws, trade unions and employee rights can all go to hell. You are all just insane. Next thing you won't care about health and safety, minimum wage, payment of wages, holidays with pay, equal pay, discrimination. It's just catering. Put up and shut up. I tried to help, to set out the law and a bunch of idiots tell me that I am wrong. " At no point did I or anyone else say it's right. What was said was... It's normal for that to happen, regardless of right or wrong, and it's gotten around by the wording of the law like "Maintaining continuity of service or production" | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful. All customers should disappear "Just the wanker cunts | |||
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"The people in this thread astonish me. The law is there to protect people, but you are all saying that employers are right to ignore it, and that employees should just "put up and shut up" Yet 99% of the posters on the forum are left-wing, hate the Conservative Party. Suddenly laws, trade unions and employee rights can all go to hell. You are all just insane. Next thing you won't care about health and safety, minimum wage, payment of wages, holidays with pay, equal pay, discrimination. It's just catering. Put up and shut up. I tried to help, to set out the law and a bunch of idiots tell me that I am wrong. " As has already been said. That is just the nature of the restaurant trade and it will never end as everyone wants to be the new Ferran Adria and believe me when I tell you this if one person leaves because the hours are too long another 1 will step up to fill those shoes. | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful. All customers should disappear
Just the wanker cunts "The old lady that orders a well done steak and yet when it goes out it comes back because momma likes it WELL done so you literally turn it into shoe leather with the heat of a thousand burning suns. It goes back out and she is amazed at your work and leaves a hefty 50p tip for your trouble | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful. All customers should disappear
Just the wanker cunts
The old lady that orders a well done steak and yet when it goes out it comes back because momma likes it WELL done so you literally turn it into shoe leather with the heat of a thousand burning suns. It goes back out and she is amazed at your work and leaves a hefty 50p tip for your trouble"Been there. Amount of people who complain over food that has had a lot of work put into it is rediculous. Its happening in oubs now. One I work in does food for most of the week, but we stop serving at certain times to give the waiting and kitchen staff a break. We also have days where we dont serve food. Amount of people who kick up a massive fuss and leave a bad review because we didnt serve food when they were hungry and the barman was sarcastic and rude. All i said to them was "i'm terribly sorry but we do not serve food on a Monday/sunday evening. I can offer you some Welsh tapas though" and when asked what that is, its "a bag of crisps, pork scratchings, salted nuts, and a jar of cockles" | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful. All customers should disappear
Just the wanker cunts
The old lady that orders a well done steak and yet when it goes out it comes back because momma likes it WELL done so you literally turn it into shoe leather with the heat of a thousand burning suns. It goes back out and she is amazed at your work and leaves a hefty 50p tip for your trouble"At least she eats it. Well done rump = you must have teeth like jaws to chew that fucker..... Oh no, no, you've sent it back coz it's tough. Well done fillet = please let me kill you now. "Would you like the chef to butterfly it, as it will take an awfully long time to cook a fillet well done ?" No 15 mins later, "cancel that order, I've got a film to get to and you're taking the piss with how long you're taking to cook my food"  | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful. All customers should disappear
Just the wanker cunts
The old lady that orders a well done steak and yet when it goes out it comes back because momma likes it WELL done so you literally turn it into shoe leather with the heat of a thousand burning suns. It goes back out and she is amazed at your work and leaves a hefty 50p tip for your trouble
Been there. Amount of people who complain over food that has had a lot of work put into it is rediculous. Its happening in oubs now. One I work in does food for most of the week, but we stop serving at certain times to give the waiting and kitchen staff a break. We also have days where we dont serve food. Amount of people who kick up a massive fuss and leave a bad review because we didnt serve food when they were hungry and the barman was sarcastic and rude. All i said to them was "i'm terribly sorry but we do not serve food on a Monday/sunday evening. I can offer you some Welsh tapas though" and when asked what that is, its "a bag of crisps, pork scratchings, salted nuts, and a jar of cockles"" | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful. All customers should disappear
Just the wanker cunts
The old lady that orders a well done steak and yet when it goes out it comes back because momma likes it WELL done so you literally turn it into shoe leather with the heat of a thousand burning suns. It goes back out and she is amazed at your work and leaves a hefty 50p tip for your trouble
At least she eats it. Well done rump = you must have teeth like jaws to chew that fucker..... Oh no, no, you've sent it back coz it's tough.
Well done fillet = please let me kill you now. "Would you like the chef to butterfly it, as it will take an awfully long time to cook a fillet well done ?"
No
15 mins later, "cancel that order, I've got a film to get to and you're taking the piss with how long you're taking to cook my food"
"Push for the fish on a Monday. That'll teach them | |||
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"Long n short. It's brutal. Normally the pay is dire (so fair play to your young un) Say goodbye to social life. Say goodbye to family time. If pot wash breaks it's all hands on deck hand washing and he'll be lucky to be out of there by 3am. It's can be a thankless job where you feel undervalued and yes, like a slave. The team you have around you become your new family, good and bad. IF you put the hard work in, and make huge sacrifices it can pay off eventually. I thought Chefs were generally the best paid of the staff? Not that waiters, cleaners or bar staff are paid well. But in the relative sense i thought Chefs did ok? They do better the others. However only our second and head chef are on more than minimum wage. The others are on minimum the same as the waiting staff." Tough gig. I do like watching Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares . I can see the appeal of the job in terms of creativity and being on the go. But my goodness it looks stressful. | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful. All customers should disappear
Just the wanker cunts
The old lady that orders a well done steak and yet when it goes out it comes back because momma likes it WELL done so you literally turn it into shoe leather with the heat of a thousand burning suns. It goes back out and she is amazed at your work and leaves a hefty 50p tip for your trouble
Been there. Amount of people who complain over food that has had a lot of work put into it is rediculous. Its happening in oubs now. One I work in does food for most of the week, but we stop serving at certain times to give the waiting and kitchen staff a break. We also have days where we dont serve food. Amount of people who kick up a massive fuss and leave a bad review because we didnt serve food when they were hungry and the barman was sarcastic and rude. All i said to them was "i'm terribly sorry but we do not serve food on a Monday/sunday evening. I can offer you some Welsh tapas though" and when asked what that is, its "a bag of crisps, pork scratchings, salted nuts, and a jar of cockles"
"You cant say I didnt try to accomadate their requests that at least should be worth a 4 star review  | |||
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"Long n short. It's brutal. Normally the pay is dire (so fair play to your young un) Say goodbye to social life. Say goodbye to family time. If pot wash breaks it's all hands on deck hand washing and he'll be lucky to be out of there by 3am. It's can be a thankless job where you feel undervalued and yes, like a slave. The team you have around you become your new family, good and bad. IF you put the hard work in, and make huge sacrifices it can pay off eventually. I thought Chefs were generally the best paid of the staff? Not that waiters, cleaners or bar staff are paid well. But in the relative sense i thought Chefs did ok? They do better the others. However only our second and head chef are on more than minimum wage. The others are on minimum the same as the waiting staff. Tough gig. I do like watching Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares . I can see the appeal of the job in terms of creativity and being on the go. But my goodness it looks stressful. " It's hellish. Our restaurant can sit 140 covers inside plus there's the patio area too. One chef of the grill, one plating up, one on starters, one on desserts and salad. Joe public have no idea what it's like. They complain about the length of time their food takes, I'm sure they think they're the only people who's food needs cooking. Then you have the ones with allergies, this is massive. Each person that has allergies must have an area of the kitchen cleaned down specifically to prep and cook their meal. This can mean clearing and cleaning a space on the grill, away from the other food. Doesn't seem that bad but it massively delays the rest of the orders because the grill space has just been halved to cater for one person. | |||
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"The people in this thread astonish me. The law is there to protect people, but you are all saying that employers are right to ignore it, and that employees should just "put up and shut up" Yet 99% of the posters on the forum are left-wing, hate the Conservative Party. Suddenly laws, trade unions and employee rights can all go to hell. You are all just insane. Next thing you won't care about health and safety, minimum wage, payment of wages, holidays with pay, equal pay, discrimination. It's just catering. Put up and shut up. I tried to help, to set out the law and a bunch of idiots tell me that I am wrong. " You astonish me. This thread is literally full of people who currently work or have worked in hospitality. They are all singing the same song, yet you, who appear to know very little about the industry, but do have the ability to cut and paste the law, are suggesting we are all wrong. Contracts frequently have clauses such as "working to meet the needs of the business" or similar. Its not an office 9 to 5 job, although I seriously doubt there are any of those anymore either. Myself and my staff came in early to prep up for lunch, when we were ready we took a break. Then the fun starts and the customers arrive. You work until they are fed, watered and paid. Then you clean down. You finish when its done. "Done" is frequently a couple of hours before you're due to open again for the next wave, when its all hands to the deck to prep up gain, rinse and repeat until everyone's gone home. Frequently at stupid o'clock in the morning, at which point you restock the fridges and bar, clean down and give yourself a head start on the next day. And now, finally, you get a break. And its 3 in the morning........ | |||
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"Back in the day anybody in Catering particulary hotels would talk about doing “BLD” which meant breakfast lunch & dinner AKA bloody long days. Nowadays they work “AFD” work out what that means. That’s how most chefs start out in hotels & restaurants as it usually gives them the best training albeit long & arduous!! As one gets older or gets fed up of silly hours & not having a social life, one realises you can work in catering with sensible hours. This might be contract catering in schools, nursing homes, staff canteens etc etc, with very often no evenings or weekends, it might be less pay sometimes but the trade offs are immense. " "What shift you on tomorrow?" "AFD, you?" "Should have been my day off but Bill's called in sick so I'm on all fucking day too" The joys. | |||
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"The people in this thread astonish me. The law is there to protect people, but you are all saying that employers are right to ignore it, and that employees should just "put up and shut up" Yet 99% of the posters on the forum are left-wing, hate the Conservative Party. Suddenly laws, trade unions and employee rights can all go to hell. You are all just insane. Next thing you won't care about health and safety, minimum wage, payment of wages, holidays with pay, equal pay, discrimination. It's just catering. Put up and shut up. I tried to help, to set out the law and a bunch of idiots tell me that I am wrong. You astonish me. This thread is literally full of people who currently work or have worked in hospitality. They are all singing the same song, yet you, who appear to know very little about the industry, but do have the ability to cut and paste the law, are suggesting we are all wrong. Contracts frequently have clauses such as "working to meet the needs of the business" or similar. Its not an office 9 to 5 job, although I seriously doubt there are any of those anymore either. " Less and less, but i think there's an important difference. I know a lot of people who work 60-70 hour weeks in office jobs, but half those fucking hours are spent in tedious meetings that are neither intellectually nor physically challenging. I think the intensity of having to respond within a given time to each order makes a chefs job way more challenging. " Myself and my staff came in early to prep up for lunch, when we were ready we took a break. Then the fun starts and the customers arrive. You work until they are fed, watered and paid. Then you clean down. You finish when its done. "Done" is frequently a couple of hours before you're due to open again for the next wave, when its all hands to the deck to prep up gain, rinse and repeat until everyone's gone home. Frequently at stupid o'clock in the morning, at which point you restock the fridges and bar, clean down and give yourself a head start on the next day. And now, finally, you get a break. And its 3 in the morning........" | |||
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"The people in this thread astonish me. The law is there to protect people, but you are all saying that employers are right to ignore it, and that employees should just "put up and shut up" Yet 99% of the posters on the forum are left-wing, hate the Conservative Party. Suddenly laws, trade unions and employee rights can all go to hell. You are all just insane. Next thing you won't care about health and safety, minimum wage, payment of wages, holidays with pay, equal pay, discrimination. It's just catering. Put up and shut up. I tried to help, to set out the law and a bunch of idiots tell me that I am wrong. " Naive doesnt even begin to cover your posts | |||
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"The people in this thread astonish me. The law is there to protect people, but you are all saying that employers are right to ignore it, and that employees should just "put up and shut up" Yet 99% of the posters on the forum are left-wing, hate the Conservative Party. Suddenly laws, trade unions and employee rights can all go to hell. You are all just insane. Next thing you won't care about health and safety, minimum wage, payment of wages, holidays with pay, equal pay, discrimination. It's just catering. Put up and shut up. I tried to help, to set out the law and a bunch of idiots tell me that I am wrong. You astonish me. This thread is literally full of people who currently work or have worked in hospitality. They are all singing the same song, yet you, who appear to know very little about the industry, but do have the ability to cut and paste the law, are suggesting we are all wrong. Contracts frequently have clauses such as "working to meet the needs of the business" or similar. Its not an office 9 to 5 job, although I seriously doubt there are any of those anymore either. Less and less, but i think there's an important difference. I know a lot of people who work 60-70 hour weeks in office jobs, but half those fucking hours are spent in tedious meetings that are neither intellectually nor physically challenging. I think the intensity of having to respond within a given time to each order makes a chefs job way more challenging. Myself and my staff came in early to prep up for lunch, when we were ready we took a break. Then the fun starts and the customers arrive. You work until they are fed, watered and paid. Then you clean down. You finish when its done. "Done" is frequently a couple of hours before you're due to open again for the next wave, when its all hands to the deck to prep up gain, rinse and repeat until everyone's gone home. Frequently at stupid o'clock in the morning, at which point you restock the fridges and bar, clean down and give yourself a head start on the next day. And now, finally, you get a break. And its 3 in the morning........" Same here. One of my recent jobs, sometimes I was lucky to get 2 hours productive work done in a day due to attending meetings. So when does that actual coal face work get done? In whatever time you have left, resulting in 60-70 hour weeks. Add in 3 hours travel a day and before you know it the weeks over. My biggest bugbear is always someone higher up the chain of command making commitments on behalf of my team, without bothering to ask us if it was possible. Great, so whatever plans we did have to manage our time and workload have just gone down the crapper. Yes, we have demanding clients, but FFS lets manage their expectations and not commit to something we cant achieve. Hospitality is the real sharp end of customer service. I've lost track of the number of times the owner decided to accept an after theater walk in booking for 20 people at 11pm, 50 turn up, then spend the evening moaning that certain meals were off the menu, spend the evening treating the staff like slaves snapping their fingers for service and at 4am deciding they wanted separate bills. Allow me, that's £1500 between 50 of you, that'll be £30 each. Please feel free to decide who had chips and a desert and who didn't on the pavement outside...... | |||
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"Long n short. It's brutal. Normally the pay is dire (so fair play to your young un) Say goodbye to social life. Say goodbye to family time. If pot wash breaks it's all hands on deck hand washing and he'll be lucky to be out of there by 3am. It's can be a thankless job where you feel undervalued and yes, like a slave. The team you have around you become your new family, good and bad. IF you put the hard work in, and make huge sacrifices it can pay off eventually. I thought Chefs were generally the best paid of the staff? Not that waiters, cleaners or bar staff are paid well. But in the relative sense i thought Chefs did ok? They do better the others. However only our second and head chef are on more than minimum wage. The others are on minimum the same as the waiting staff. Tough gig. I do like watching Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares . I can see the appeal of the job in terms of creativity and being on the go. But my goodness it looks stressful. " Ramsey disgusts me, many people who I know who work in catering feel the same. So many people now think its acceptable to scream, berate and abuse your staff because they watch that prick. Very good chef, not such a good human being.  | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. " NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... | |||
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"So it's a industry with punishingly long hours, low pay and where workers rights are routinely ignored. Perhaps a naive question. But why does anyone is isn't absolutely desperate for work, get involved in the industry? " Because people are willing to make sacrifices to further their careers and work doing what they love. | |||
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"The people in this thread astonish me. The law is there to protect people, but you are all saying that employers are right to ignore it, and that employees should just "put up and shut up" Yet 99% of the posters on the forum are left-wing, hate the Conservative Party. Suddenly laws, trade unions and employee rights can all go to hell. You are all just insane. Next thing you won't care about health and safety, minimum wage, payment of wages, holidays with pay, equal pay, discrimination. It's just catering. Put up and shut up. I tried to help, to set out the law and a bunch of idiots tell me that I am wrong. " Not many people said it was right, just that it happens. The catering industry (and the Agriculture industry in which I work) are very poorly unionised. | |||
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"There is a set of H&S regulations that the company have to apply by. Firstly your son is under 18, has he had a young person risk assessment carried out with him. There are reduced hours, increased frequency of breaks and things like that, the employer can put in place." He hasn't had any kind of risk assessment. He is a fabulous young chef with a potentially exciting journey ahead, I just hope that he stays in the industry, if it is his journey, and reaches his potential. As it is his first job, I just wanted to be sure that it is normal for the industry he has chosen, as we had nothing to compare it with apart from his part-time hours, at the same restaurant, whilst he completed College. | |||
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"So it's a industry with punishingly long hours, low pay and where workers rights are routinely ignored. Perhaps a naive question. But why does anyone is isn't absolutely desperate for work, get involved in the industry? " I guess some people like it. On the whole, I've enjoyed my time in Agriculture, but lots of that has been self employed. I'm looking for an out now because I would like an actual social life and I wouldn't want to stay in the industry past my mid 40s. | |||
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"So it's a industry with punishingly long hours, low pay and where workers rights are routinely ignored. Perhaps a naive question. But why does anyone is isn't absolutely desperate for work, get involved in the industry? Because people are willing to make sacrifices to further their careers and work doing what they love." That kind of begs the question. Why would anyone love work where the conditions are so awful? | |||
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"So it's a industry with punishingly long hours, low pay and where workers rights are routinely ignored. Perhaps a naive question. But why does anyone is isn't absolutely desperate for work, get involved in the industry? " You don't always realise just how punishing it can be until you're relying on it to keep a roof over your head. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... " It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. | |||
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"There is a set of H&S regulations that the company have to apply by. Firstly your son is under 18, has he had a young person risk assessment carried out with him. There are reduced hours, increased frequency of breaks and things like that, the employer can put in place. He hasn't had any kind of risk assessment. He is a fabulous young chef with a potentially exciting journey ahead, I just hope that he stays in the industry, if it is his journey, and reaches his potential. As it is his first job, I just wanted to be sure that it is normal for the industry he has chosen, as we had nothing to compare it with apart from his part-time hours, at the same restaurant, whilst he completed College." He definitely should have had a "young person's risk assessment" done. Would have probably had it done when he was first employed part time. | |||
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"So it's a industry with punishingly long hours, low pay and where workers rights are routinely ignored. Perhaps a naive question. But why does anyone is isn't absolutely desperate for work, get involved in the industry? You don't always realise just how punishing it can be until you're relying on it to keep a roof over your head." And feed your kids | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. " No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. | |||
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"So it's a industry with punishingly long hours, low pay and where workers rights are routinely ignored. Perhaps a naive question. But why does anyone is isn't absolutely desperate for work, get involved in the industry? You don't always realise just how punishing it can be until you're relying on it to keep a roof over your head. And feed your kids" | |||
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"So it's a industry with punishingly long hours, low pay and where workers rights are routinely ignored. Perhaps a naive question. But why does anyone is isn't absolutely desperate for work, get involved in the industry? Because people are willing to make sacrifices to further their careers and work doing what they love. That kind of begs the question. Why would anyone love work where the conditions are so awful? " Your colleagues really do turn into family. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. " Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. | |||
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"So it's a industry with punishingly long hours, low pay and where workers rights are routinely ignored. Perhaps a naive question. But why does anyone is isn't absolutely desperate for work, get involved in the industry? Because people are willing to make sacrifices to further their careers and work doing what they love. That kind of begs the question. Why would anyone love work where the conditions are so awful? " For the love and passion of the job I'd say. The hours I worked running a restaurant were ridiculous. But the experience and fun were immense..... Or maybe because any job is better than no job. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. " Actually you couldn't turn customers away because the staff were on a break. Within a week you'd be closed. | |||
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"My son is doing an apprenticeship as a chef, after receiving a job offer from where he was working part-time, (while at college doing a chef course), to put him through his certificated training on a very good salary. The place that he is working has opportunities, status and a standard that would be impossible to find locally anywhere else, and in many ways is a golden opportunity for him, almost something that would come once, at an establishment of this nature, for someone so young and previously inexperience. He is working in a very busy, organised, high status and well run kitchen and mostly enjoys his job. The problem is he's only 17 and he's working extremely long hours and without the breaks that legally he is supposed to get. He has occasionally worked in excess of 9 hours without even a 15-minute break. He is working a minimum of a 50 hour week. He has tried discussing it with the head chef, but they have said that a chef job involves extremely hard work and long hours and if he wants it this is what he has to do. They are not at all receptive to the problem, although they do treat him very well apart from this issue. He doesn't want to cause any trouble, and he doesn't want to find another job, it is unlikely he would find anything on this kind of salary, without even the fact they are going to be paying for his accreditation. He is now getting so tired and fed up as he feels he is doing nothing else but work apart from on his two, midweek days off two days off. He doesn't have much social life these days, with long working hours, and not a lot of time to see his friends or behave like a teenager does. I don't really see what I can do to help, if we go in talking about a acas, and legal breaks, I don't really think it's going to help him, and his mum contacting them up would seem very juvenile in the situation adult world that he is in. Has anybody got any suggestions, or have experienced something similar? I really understand how is feeling, and want to support him, but neither of us have been able to think of a way, and I feel if he carries on he's going to end up leaving, and giving up an irreplaceable opportunity, although, I understand totally why he would do that. He feels he is unable to change the situation, and just for information purposes, he also would not return to any kind of college or school situation, e feels that he has put that all behind now apart from hopefully getting his accreditation on the job. Thanks for any advice x" Being a chef demands working unsocial hours and long hours I know he's young and by sounds of things he's appreciating the opportunity but it's his age that should help him because he has the stamina and the desire to be good at what he is doing, in all jobs/careers these days when you are at work you're at work they the employer demand your time and by sounds of things he's being paid well to although the break thing doesn't sound good I think he will just have to get his head down save some money and make the most of his two days off. Most chefs I've known over the years and I've worked in hotel industry a lot work long hours once he has his relevant experience and qualifications he will then be able to dictate more about how he works it but as parents I can see how you feel | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. Actually you couldn't turn customers away because the staff were on a break. Within a week you'd be closed." Yes, because the industry operates that way and any employer who tried to behave decently would go bankrupt. If there was a general social mindset that that sort of behaviour would not be tolerated and laws against it should be rigidly enforced then it wouldn't happen and no employer would gain a competitive advantage by shitting on their workers. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. " "The customer is always right" culture has a lot to answer for. We cannot close our business during working hours without the consent of the regional business manager (unless of course there's a major incident - fire, gang fight etc) By the time you had permission the person's break time would be over anyway. Closing the business without permission is a sackable offence. It's bullshit, but it's the way it is. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. "The customer is always right" culture has a lot to answer for. We cannot close our business during working hours without the consent of the regional business manager (unless of course there's a major incident - fire, gang fight etc) By the time you had permission the person's break time would be over anyway. Closing the business without permission is a sackable offence. It's bullshit, but it's the way it is. " I appreciate one particular business can't buck the trend. I am making a point that this can only go on because people generally think it is OK, just as people once thought child labour and slavery were OK... | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. Actually you couldn't turn customers away because the staff were on a break. Within a week you'd be closed. Yes, because the industry operates that way and any employer who tried to behave decently would go bankrupt. If there was a general social mindset that that sort of behaviour would not be tolerated and laws against it should be rigidly enforced then it wouldn't happen and no employer would gain a competitive advantage by shitting on their workers. " You can't legislate for when customers rock up to eat though. If the restaurant opens at 10 and closes at 3 for lunch that's at least 2 hours prep up and the same to clean down. Customers will turn up any when between 10 and 3. You take a break if and when there's downtime within those hours. The customer isn't always right, but have you ever heard people moaning that they have to wait 30 minutes for their meal? Imagine saying I'm sorry, your dinner will be an hour because chefs having a break. Long and unsociable hours go with the teritory in many industries. | |||
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" I appreciate one particular business can't buck the trend. I am making a point that this can only go on because people generally think it is OK, just as people once thought child labour and slavery were OK... " I agree, unfortunately the age of people complaining over being inconvenienced and getting free stuff for said inconvenience has overtaken and shit on people actually giving a flying fuck about the person they're screwing over, whether that be a dustman who dropped litter in someone's garden whilst trying his best to empty their full bins, to a 17 yr old who really deserves a break, but Deirdre is peckish and wants her dinner. | |||
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" I appreciate one particular business can't buck the trend. I am making a point that this can only go on because people generally think it is OK, just as people once thought child labour and slavery were OK... I agree, unfortunately the age of people complaining over being inconvenienced and getting free stuff for said inconvenience has overtaken and shit on people actually giving a flying fuck about the person they're screwing over, whether that be a dustman who dropped litter in someone's garden whilst trying his best to empty their full bins, to a 17 yr old who really deserves a break, but Deirdre is peckish and wants her dinner. " I've served a few Deidres. You're open, you must serve me and serve me now. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. Actually you couldn't turn customers away because the staff were on a break. Within a week you'd be closed. Yes, because the industry operates that way and any employer who tried to behave decently would go bankrupt. If there was a general social mindset that that sort of behaviour would not be tolerated and laws against it should be rigidly enforced then it wouldn't happen and no employer would gain a competitive advantage by shitting on their workers. You can't legislate for when customers rock up to eat though. If the restaurant opens at 10 and closes at 3 for lunch that's at least 2 hours prep up and the same to clean down. Customers will turn up any when between 10 and 3. You take a break if and when there's downtime within those hours. The customer isn't always right, but have you ever heard people moaning that they have to wait 30 minutes for their meal? Imagine saying I'm sorry, your dinner will be an hour because chefs having a break. Long and unsociable hours go with the teritory in many industries. " You can analyse trend data though and staff accordingly the same as any customer facing service. I've worked in lots of kitchens and you can pretty accurately predict when the busy periods will be so it's all about good management and forecasting. You won't always get it right so flexibility is needed abd I've been called in off breaks to deal with a random coach party etc. But for the most part it's predictable. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. Actually you couldn't turn customers away because the staff were on a break. Within a week you'd be closed. Yes, because the industry operates that way and any employer who tried to behave decently would go bankrupt. If there was a general social mindset that that sort of behaviour would not be tolerated and laws against it should be rigidly enforced then it wouldn't happen and no employer would gain a competitive advantage by shitting on their workers. You can't legislate for when customers rock up to eat though. If the restaurant opens at 10 and closes at 3 for lunch that's at least 2 hours prep up and the same to clean down. Customers will turn up any when between 10 and 3. You take a break if and when there's downtime within those hours. The customer isn't always right, but have you ever heard people moaning that they have to wait 30 minutes for their meal? Imagine saying I'm sorry, your dinner will be an hour because chefs having a break. Long and unsociable hours go with the teritory in many industries. " I am not saying you might not need some flexibility in an industry like catering but making a 17 year old work 9 hours without a break is caused by bad management because the managers know they can get away with it. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. Actually you couldn't turn customers away because the staff were on a break. Within a week you'd be closed. Yes, because the industry operates that way and any employer who tried to behave decently would go bankrupt. If there was a general social mindset that that sort of behaviour would not be tolerated and laws against it should be rigidly enforced then it wouldn't happen and no employer would gain a competitive advantage by shitting on their workers. You can't legislate for when customers rock up to eat though. If the restaurant opens at 10 and closes at 3 for lunch that's at least 2 hours prep up and the same to clean down. Customers will turn up any when between 10 and 3. You take a break if and when there's downtime within those hours. The customer isn't always right, but have you ever heard people moaning that they have to wait 30 minutes for their meal? Imagine saying I'm sorry, your dinner will be an hour because chefs having a break. Long and unsociable hours go with the teritory in many industries. You can analyse trend data though and staff accordingly the same as any customer facing service. I've worked in lots of kitchens and you can pretty accurately predict when the busy periods will be so it's all about good management and forecasting. You won't always get it right so flexibility is needed abd I've been called in off breaks to deal with a random coach party etc. But for the most part it's predictable. " And that was my point about sods law that your £1200 food delivery turns up bang on that time. There are so many variables that influence getting a break or not. I don't agree with it in the slightest. Our manager gave us the option. Do you want to be guaranteed your break? Yes please. Ok fine. Can I have volunteers to work for an hour or 2 a day to cover breaks?.... nobody. Who wants to work an hour? Spend more time getting ready and on travel than you'll earn in that hour. | |||
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"So it's a industry with punishingly long hours, low pay and where workers rights are routinely ignored. Perhaps a naive question. But why does anyone is isn't absolutely desperate for work, get involved in the industry? " The rewards can be huge. Most good chefs are passionate about what they do. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. Actually you couldn't turn customers away because the staff were on a break. Within a week you'd be closed. Yes, because the industry operates that way and any employer who tried to behave decently would go bankrupt. If there was a general social mindset that that sort of behaviour would not be tolerated and laws against it should be rigidly enforced then it wouldn't happen and no employer would gain a competitive advantage by shitting on their workers. You can't legislate for when customers rock up to eat though. If the restaurant opens at 10 and closes at 3 for lunch that's at least 2 hours prep up and the same to clean down. Customers will turn up any when between 10 and 3. You take a break if and when there's downtime within those hours. The customer isn't always right, but have you ever heard people moaning that they have to wait 30 minutes for their meal? Imagine saying I'm sorry, your dinner will be an hour because chefs having a break. Long and unsociable hours go with the teritory in many industries. You can analyse trend data though and staff accordingly the same as any customer facing service. I've worked in lots of kitchens and you can pretty accurately predict when the busy periods will be so it's all about good management and forecasting. You won't always get it right so flexibility is needed abd I've been called in off breaks to deal with a random coach party etc. But for the most part it's predictable. And that was my point about sods law that your £1200 food delivery turns up bang on that time. There are so many variables that influence getting a break or not. I don't agree with it in the slightest. Our manager gave us the option. Do you want to be guaranteed your break? Yes please. Ok fine. Can I have volunteers to work for an hour or 2 a day to cover breaks?.... nobody. Who wants to work an hour? Spend more time getting ready and on travel than you'll earn in that hour. " Thars poor man management on your managers part though. If he knows he's expecting a delivery at a certain time he needs to staff accordingly, stagger shifts if needed. You don't have to send everyone for a break at the same time. I used to manage a 24/7 call centre and had to ensure everyone got breaks based around our forecasted call volumes and re evaluate around our actual volumes. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. Actually you couldn't turn customers away because the staff were on a break. Within a week you'd be closed. Yes, because the industry operates that way and any employer who tried to behave decently would go bankrupt. If there was a general social mindset that that sort of behaviour would not be tolerated and laws against it should be rigidly enforced then it wouldn't happen and no employer would gain a competitive advantage by shitting on their workers. You can't legislate for when customers rock up to eat though. If the restaurant opens at 10 and closes at 3 for lunch that's at least 2 hours prep up and the same to clean down. Customers will turn up any when between 10 and 3. You take a break if and when there's downtime within those hours. The customer isn't always right, but have you ever heard people moaning that they have to wait 30 minutes for their meal? Imagine saying I'm sorry, your dinner will be an hour because chefs having a break. Long and unsociable hours go with the teritory in many industries. You can analyse trend data though and staff accordingly the same as any customer facing service. I've worked in lots of kitchens and you can pretty accurately predict when the busy periods will be so it's all about good management and forecasting. You won't always get it right so flexibility is needed abd I've been called in off breaks to deal with a random coach party etc. But for the most part it's predictable. And that was my point about sods law that your £1200 food delivery turns up bang on that time. There are so many variables that influence getting a break or not. I don't agree with it in the slightest. Our manager gave us the option. Do you want to be guaranteed your break? Yes please. Ok fine. Can I have volunteers to work for an hour or 2 a day to cover breaks?.... nobody. Who wants to work an hour? Spend more time getting ready and on travel than you'll earn in that hour. Thars poor man management on your managers part though. If he knows he's expecting a delivery at a certain time he needs to staff accordingly, stagger shifts if needed. You don't have to send everyone for a break at the same time. I used to manage a 24/7 call centre and had to ensure everyone got breaks based around our forecasted call volumes and re evaluate around our actual volumes. " Agreed and it can work, until the delivery that was due at 11am (breakfast and lunch changeover and quietish period) turns up at 5pm due to traffic/ whatever other reason. It happens. Other staff members are late, sick or whatever reason they have. It happens. | |||
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"The people in this thread astonish me. The law is there to protect people, but you are all saying that employers are right to ignore it, and that employees should just "put up and shut up" Yet 99% of the posters on the forum are left-wing, hate the Conservative Party. Suddenly laws, trade unions and employee rights can all go to hell. You are all just insane. Next thing you won't care about health and safety, minimum wage, payment of wages, holidays with pay, equal pay, discrimination. It's just catering. Put up and shut up. I tried to help, to set out the law and a bunch of idiots tell me that I am wrong. " You aren't wrong. I gave advice in my post which has been completely ignored - there are other places where he can do his apprenticeship/training which will take into consideration the law. The catering industry is horrible - I can give loads of personal examples - it doesn't have to be that way. Just because it has always been that way, doesn't mean it a always HAS to be that way. (Capitals used for emphasis, not shouting). | |||
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"The people in this thread astonish me. The law is there to protect people, but you are all saying that employers are right to ignore it, and that employees should just "put up and shut up" Yet 99% of the posters on the forum are left-wing, hate the Conservative Party. Suddenly laws, trade unions and employee rights can all go to hell. You are all just insane. Next thing you won't care about health and safety, minimum wage, payment of wages, holidays with pay, equal pay, discrimination. It's just catering. Put up and shut up. I tried to help, to set out the law and a bunch of idiots tell me that I am wrong. I shall ask again. What is your experience in the law. It's "just" catering... Well... I do hope next time you're in hospital the chefs take their breaks the law entitles them to, and when YOU miss the meal that could help you on the road to recovery and give you the vitamins you need, your complaint is met with "It's just catering"" I've done contract catering in a hospital - the chefs always got their breaks. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. Actually you couldn't turn customers away because the staff were on a break. Within a week you'd be closed. Yes, because the industry operates that way and any employer who tried to behave decently would go bankrupt. If there was a general social mindset that that sort of behaviour would not be tolerated and laws against it should be rigidly enforced then it wouldn't happen and no employer would gain a competitive advantage by shitting on their workers. You can't legislate for when customers rock up to eat though. If the restaurant opens at 10 and closes at 3 for lunch that's at least 2 hours prep up and the same to clean down. Customers will turn up any when between 10 and 3. You take a break if and when there's downtime within those hours. The customer isn't always right, but have you ever heard people moaning that they have to wait 30 minutes for their meal? Imagine saying I'm sorry, your dinner will be an hour because chefs having a break. Long and unsociable hours go with the teritory in many industries. You can analyse trend data though and staff accordingly the same as any customer facing service. I've worked in lots of kitchens and you can pretty accurately predict when the busy periods will be so it's all about good management and forecasting. You won't always get it right so flexibility is needed abd I've been called in off breaks to deal with a random coach party etc. But for the most part it's predictable. " Agreed. Particularly about not always getting it right. We knew how many covers we had, what was on the menu and the likelihood of what time people would come in and what the most popular dishes on the menu were going to be. It's possible to have a rough plan in place and organise breaks/down time. And then the owner takes a walk in for 20 people who've just rocked up. In this day and age you can't turn down business like that. Thankfully that was the exception rather than the norm. The key is, the staff need to be flexible in their approach to the job in hand. | |||
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"Same for the NHS, emergency services and most other public sector, acute jobs. NO, the laws the law, you gotta have your breaks, ITS THE LAW. *just thought i'd save someone else typng it as I was logged in anyway..... The law is one thing, the practicality of the hospitality/service industry and healthcare sectors are a million miles apart at times. Mrs Jones has just had a heart attack, get the defib now!!! Dont ask me luv, i'm on me break....... It's hardly the same is it. No ones going to die if a kitchen worker has a break. No, but you can't just lock the front doors and turn customers away because they're entitled to one. Actually you could. It's all about mindsets. The general mindset is that the customers convenience comes above the rights of 17 year olds not to be worked into the ground. That's what we, as a society, have decided, but there's nothing that makes the mindset compulsory. Actually you couldn't turn customers away because the staff were on a break. Within a week you'd be closed. Yes, because the industry operates that way and any employer who tried to behave decently would go bankrupt. If there was a general social mindset that that sort of behaviour would not be tolerated and laws against it should be rigidly enforced then it wouldn't happen and no employer would gain a competitive advantage by shitting on their workers. You can't legislate for when customers rock up to eat though. If the restaurant opens at 10 and closes at 3 for lunch that's at least 2 hours prep up and the same to clean down. Customers will turn up any when between 10 and 3. You take a break if and when there's downtime within those hours. The customer isn't always right, but have you ever heard people moaning that they have to wait 30 minutes for their meal? Imagine saying I'm sorry, your dinner will be an hour because chefs having a break. Long and unsociable hours go with the teritory in many industries. You can analyse trend data though and staff accordingly the same as any customer facing service. I've worked in lots of kitchens and you can pretty accurately predict when the busy periods will be so it's all about good management and forecasting. You won't always get it right so flexibility is needed abd I've been called in off breaks to deal with a random coach party etc. But for the most part it's predictable. And that was my point about sods law that your £1200 food delivery turns up bang on that time. There are so many variables that influence getting a break or not. I don't agree with it in the slightest. Our manager gave us the option. Do you want to be guaranteed your break? Yes please. Ok fine. Can I have volunteers to work for an hour or 2 a day to cover breaks?.... nobody. Who wants to work an hour? Spend more time getting ready and on travel than you'll earn in that hour. Thars poor man management on your managers part though. If he knows he's expecting a delivery at a certain time he needs to staff accordingly, stagger shifts if needed. You don't have to send everyone for a break at the same time. I used to manage a 24/7 call centre and had to ensure everyone got breaks based around our forecasted call volumes and re evaluate around our actual volumes. Agreed and it can work, until the delivery that was due at 11am (breakfast and lunch changeover and quietish period) turns up at 5pm due to traffic/ whatever other reason. It happens. Other staff members are late, sick or whatever reason they have. It happens. " It does.. That's where the flexibility and re evaluating comes into it. | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then??" | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then??" I admire your dedication, but why is ensuring customers get food served to them at the exact moment they want it, so vital. I mean if I want a manicure or a car service at 4am, I can't just go to the manicurist or mechanic and demand it. I have to wait until they are open... | |||
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"Must be nice having a life where you work 9-5, break for an hour at 12 be home for 6, tea ready at 7. Not everyone has a job like that, despite what THE LAW says." Even lovelier having a job where you have an expense account to enjoy those restaurants and pubs where people work 12 hours without a proper break | |||
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"Must be nice having a life where you work 9-5, break for an hour at 12 be home for 6, tea ready at 7. Not everyone has a job like that, despite what THE LAW says." Heavenly. Unfortunately I think I'd need to start my own business for that to happen. Wouldn't be a very successful one if I did tho! | |||
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"Must be nice having a life where you work 9-5, break for an hour at 12 be home for 6, tea ready at 7. Not everyone has a job like that, despite what THE LAW says. Even lovelier having a job where you have an expense account to enjoy those restaurants and pubs where people work 12 hours without a proper break" Ah yes..... I've treated you like shit all night... make sure I get a VAT receipt | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then?? I admire your dedication, but why is ensuring customers get food served to them at the exact moment they want it, so vital. I mean if I want a manicure or a car service at 4am, I can't just go to the manicurist or mechanic and demand it. I have to wait until they are open... " No one goes out to eat in a restaurant when it's closed do they? That's a daft analogy. Everyone will anticipate a wait of say 30 minutes at a busy time. I think everyone understands it takes time to cook food..... '\  /' | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then?? I admire your dedication, but why is ensuring customers get food served to them at the exact moment they want it, so vital. I mean if I want a manicure or a car service at 4am, I can't just go to the manicurist or mechanic and demand it. I have to wait until they are open... No one goes out to eat in a restaurant when it's closed do they? That's a daft analogy. Everyone will anticipate a wait of say 30 minutes at a busy time. I think everyone understands it takes time to cook food..... '\ /'"I was responding to the poster who said he stayed open until 4am until everyone was fed. I suppose a better analogy would be if I turned up at a manicurist thirty Mins before closing to find a long queue and demand they stay open until they can manicure me... | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then?? I admire your dedication, but why is ensuring customers get food served to them at the exact moment they want it, so vital. I mean if I want a manicure or a car service at 4am, I can't just go to the manicurist or mechanic and demand it. I have to wait until they are open... No one goes out to eat in a restaurant when it's closed do they? That's a daft analogy. Everyone will anticipate a wait of say 30 minutes at a busy time. I think everyone understands it takes time to cook food..... '\ /'
I was responding to the poster who said he stayed open until 4am until everyone was fed.
I suppose a better analogy would be if I turned up at a manicurist thirty Mins before closing to find a long queue and demand they stay open until they can manicure me... "Like customers that are at the bar at 11pm last orders, but because they're standing at the bar at 11 and not approaching the bar after 11 should be served? Just like that. | |||
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"Must be nice having a life where you work 9-5, break for an hour at 12 be home for 6, tea ready at 7. Not everyone has a job like that, despite what THE LAW says. Even lovelier having a job where you have an expense account to enjoy those restaurants and pubs where people work 12 hours without a proper break" I have a job where i get my expenses paid. Should I avoid restaurants? | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful." I’m sorry but that doesn’t all have to happen! | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful. I’m sorry but that doesn’t all have to happen! " What do you do then? Genuinely curious. | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then?? I admire your dedication, but why is ensuring customers get food served to them at the exact moment they want it, so vital. I mean if I want a manicure or a car service at 4am, I can't just go to the manicurist or mechanic and demand it. I have to wait until they are open... No one goes out to eat in a restaurant when it's closed do they? That's a daft analogy. Everyone will anticipate a wait of say 30 minutes at a busy time. I think everyone understands it takes time to cook food..... '\ /'
I was responding to the poster who said he stayed open until 4am until everyone was fed.
I suppose a better analogy would be if I turned up at a manicurist thirty Mins before closing to find a long queue and demand they stay open until they can manicure me...
Like customers that are at the bar at 11pm last orders, but because they're standing at the bar at 11 and not approaching the bar after 11 should be served? Just like that. "No, I am obviously not saying that, there has to be some reasonable flexibility. I am just intrigued as to why everyone who has worked in the industry seems to take such masochistic pride on having a shit working life because customers demand it. | |||
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"As a line cook myself i would never reccomend anyone thinking of cooking professionally, the hours, the pains in your feet after four doubles shift and a single will kill your soul slowly. I love the rush while in service but it takes a toll on your body and mind. Also how many kitchens have drug and booze problems? Ive worked in fine dining i can honestly say 90%+ takr drugs while at work. Its sad seeing your senior chefs needing to do a line to get through service. Or the head chef whi drinks 5L of beer daily. The verbal abuse, the racism you can face. Missing those important family programs. You give your life to a company and the kitchen & sacrifice your family time when the true fact is you are dispensable and willbe replaced if you dont follow suit. " And don't forget the chef's arse. | |||
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"As a line cook myself i would never reccomend anyone thinking of cooking professionally, the hours, the pains in your feet after four doubles shift and a single will kill your soul slowly. I love the rush while in service but it takes a toll on your body and mind. Also how many kitchens have drug and booze problems? Ive worked in fine dining i can honestly say 90%+ takr drugs while at work. Its sad seeing your senior chefs needing to do a line to get through service. Or the head chef whi drinks 5L of beer daily. The verbal abuse, the racism you can face. Missing those important family programs. You give your life to a company and the kitchen & sacrifice your family time when the true fact is you are dispensable and willbe replaced if you dont follow suit. " I was gonna mention the drug and alcohol abuse I've witnessed myself but wasn't sure how far and wide it was spread. It's not all, but I've seen a lot. | |||
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"All the previous posters on this thread display an appalling attitude and are just plainly wrong. The law is the law. You cannot just say - this industry doesn't employ black people; that industry won't employ disabled people; and the other industry wouldn't employ women. Junior doctors used to work hundreds of hours a week. Now they are not allowed to. No hospital can say that they still have to. There is no difference here. The person is 17, and in an apprenticeship, because they have to be in some kind of education, being under 18. An apprenticeship counts. Clearly they are with a provider who should not be an apprentice provider with their attitude. They are supposed to be training this person, not using them as a slave. They are being partly funded by the Education and Skills Funding Agency. A complaint should be made to them. A 17 year old has a right to not work more than 8 hours per day, 40 hours per week, to 2 consecutive days' rest per week and 12 hour rest between shifts. They are also entitled to a break of 30 minutes after 4.5 hours. The only concession to the catering/bakery/hospitality trade is that they are allowed to work up to midnight and from 4am, which they would not be allowed to do, say if they were an apprentice painter and decorator. The person in this case should make a complaint to the apprentice provider and if nothing is done, then they can bring a complaint to the employment tribunal for breach of the working time regulations. They also may have a personal injury claim if the illegal hours are affecting their health. The person should also leave and find a responsible apprenticeship provider. Have you ever worked in the hospitality trade? I'm again quite sure the term "as per business needs" and others that say the same thing come into play and are commonplace, and are also recognised by those that enforce the law. So, you've learned from reading this thread that's it's a brutal environment to work in, and hope opens your eyes, I also hope you aren't one of those cunts that arrives 5 mins before the kitchen closes and orders starters, a well done steak and then complains they want dessert when everyone is waiting to go home after slogging their guts out for the last 16 hours." I have managed food businesses for 20 years have defended and maintained my teams rights for breaks etc.... 5 mins before the kitchen closes is when the cunt you refer to made it to your business.... within the opening hours!! While I’ve managed in support of my team I also respect the customer who comes to my business when it was open and chose to spend their money with us. | |||
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"As a line cook myself i would never reccomend anyone thinking of cooking professionally, the hours, the pains in your feet after four doubles shift and a single will kill your soul slowly. I love the rush while in service but it takes a toll on your body and mind. Also how many kitchens have drug and booze problems? Ive worked in fine dining i can honestly say 90%+ takr drugs while at work. Its sad seeing your senior chefs needing to do a line to get through service. Or the head chef whi drinks 5L of beer daily. The verbal abuse, the racism you can face. Missing those important family programs. You give your life to a company and the kitchen & sacrifice your family time when the true fact is you are dispensable and willbe replaced if you dont follow suit. " Again, I really don't understand it. It's not as if it's like football, music, fashion or whatever, where you might put up with Shit because of the glamour and huge potential rewards. I personally hate cooking so that probably informs my view somewhat... | |||
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"As a line cook myself i would never reccomend anyone thinking of cooking professionally, the hours, the pains in your feet after four doubles shift and a single will kill your soul slowly. I love the rush while in service but it takes a toll on your body and mind. Also how many kitchens have drug and booze problems? Ive worked in fine dining i can honestly say 90%+ takr drugs while at work. Its sad seeing your senior chefs needing to do a line to get through service. Or the head chef whi drinks 5L of beer daily. The verbal abuse, the racism you can face. Missing those important family programs. You give your life to a company and the kitchen & sacrifice your family time when the true fact is you are dispensable and willbe replaced if you dont follow suit. Again, I really don't understand it. It's not as if it's like football, music, fashion or whatever, where you might put up with Shit because of the glamour and huge potential rewards. I personally hate cooking so that probably informs my view somewhat... "We all have experiences that 'inform' our views | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then?? I admire your dedication, but why is ensuring customers get food served to them at the exact moment they want it, so vital. I mean if I want a manicure or a car service at 4am, I can't just go to the manicurist or mechanic and demand it. I have to wait until they are open... No one goes out to eat in a restaurant when it's closed do they? That's a daft analogy. Everyone will anticipate a wait of say 30 minutes at a busy time. I think everyone understands it takes time to cook food..... '\ /'
I was responding to the poster who said he stayed open until 4am until everyone was fed.
I suppose a better analogy would be if I turned up at a manicurist thirty Mins before closing to find a long queue and demand they stay open until they can manicure me...
Like customers that are at the bar at 11pm last orders, but because they're standing at the bar at 11 and not approaching the bar after 11 should be served? Just like that.
No, I am obviously not saying that, there has to be some reasonable flexibility.
I am just intrigued as to why everyone who has worked in the industry seems to take such masochistic pride on having a shit working life because customers demand it. "Because we are replaceable and do what we can to keep our shitty paid jobs. Because those customers have the power to close down a business. There's a saying "going above and beyond" and that's hospitality on a daily basis. Competition is everywhere, and just as keeping our jobs, we need to do what we can to keep the business trading. Ok... If business is shit, they don't need me to work. I only get paid the hours I work. | |||
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"All the previous posters on this thread display an appalling attitude and are just plainly wrong. The law is the law. You cannot just say - this industry doesn't employ black people; that industry won't employ disabled people; and the other industry wouldn't employ women. Junior doctors used to work hundreds of hours a week. Now they are not allowed to. No hospital can say that they still have to. There is no difference here. The person is 17, and in an apprenticeship, because they have to be in some kind of education, being under 18. An apprenticeship counts. Clearly they are with a provider who should not be an apprentice provider with their attitude. They are supposed to be training this person, not using them as a slave. They are being partly funded by the Education and Skills Funding Agency. A complaint should be made to them. A 17 year old has a right to not work more than 8 hours per day, 40 hours per week, to 2 consecutive days' rest per week and 12 hour rest between shifts. They are also entitled to a break of 30 minutes after 4.5 hours. The only concession to the catering/bakery/hospitality trade is that they are allowed to work up to midnight and from 4am, which they would not be allowed to do, say if they were an apprentice painter and decorator. The person in this case should make a complaint to the apprentice provider and if nothing is done, then they can bring a complaint to the employment tribunal for breach of the working time regulations. They also may have a personal injury claim if the illegal hours are affecting their health. The person should also leave and find a responsible apprenticeship provider. Have you ever worked in the hospitality trade? I'm again quite sure the term "as per business needs" and others that say the same thing come into play and are commonplace, and are also recognised by those that enforce the law. So, you've learned from reading this thread that's it's a brutal environment to work in, and hope opens your eyes, I also hope you aren't one of those cunts that arrives 5 mins before the kitchen closes and orders starters, a well done steak and then complains they want dessert when everyone is waiting to go home after slogging their guts out for the last 16 hours. I have managed food businesses for 20 years have defended and maintained my teams rights for breaks etc.... 5 mins before the kitchen closes is when the cunt you refer to made it to your business.... within the opening hours!! While I’ve managed in support of my team I also respect the customer who comes to my business when it was open and chose to spend their money with us. " Would you do it? I wouldn't. That tenner they're spending doesn't even cover the wages of the staff that's now working over, and missing their last bus home. I call lots of people cunts so don't sweat it sweet cheeks. | |||
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"Sorry to keep rattling on, another ball ache... You're scheduled a break from 2.30 - 3.30 for arguments sake. Delivery arrives either late or early.... bang on your break time. You can't leave it, the food will spoil and there are strict guidelines about temperatures and how long it can be out of the fridge/freezer. Each food item comes in packaged yes? You cannot have external packaging on items in the fridge as you don't know what that external packaging had come into contact with, so it's not just putting things in a fridge, it all needs unpacking too. Oh, but you can't just take things out of the packaging and be done, you need to log batch codes etc for traceability. It's far more detailed and strict than most peeps think about." Don't forget about the part where you need to drag stock out of the fridges and dry store to rotate it too! Urgh. | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then?? I admire your dedication, but why is ensuring customers get food served to them at the exact moment they want it, so vital. I mean if I want a manicure or a car service at 4am, I can't just go to the manicurist or mechanic and demand it. I have to wait until they are open... No one goes out to eat in a restaurant when it's closed do they? That's a daft analogy. Everyone will anticipate a wait of say 30 minutes at a busy time. I think everyone understands it takes time to cook food..... '\ /'
I was responding to the poster who said he stayed open until 4am until everyone was fed.
I suppose a better analogy would be if I turned up at a manicurist thirty Mins before closing to find a long queue and demand they stay open until they can manicure me...
Like customers that are at the bar at 11pm last orders, but because they're standing at the bar at 11 and not approaching the bar after 11 should be served? Just like that.
No, I am obviously not saying that, there has to be some reasonable flexibility.
I am just intrigued as to why everyone who has worked in the industry seems to take such masochistic pride on having a shit working life because customers demand it. "I stayed open until 4am because I had customers in, spending money.If there was nobody in, I'd close at 12, but I'm not going to call time on paying customers! Maybe that's because it was my own business and I'd take the trade when I could, but even so, any business in this current climate would be daft to turn away customers at a set time.Its part and parcel of the industry, if you turn customers away, there'll soon be plenty of time for breaks | |||
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"No he doesn't need to "ride it out". He should complain. They are not fit to be an apprentice provider. If they cut corners there, they will cut corners everywhere. The industry is as it is. It will never change for the simplest of reasons that running a kitchen that there are so many jobs that need to be done in order to run a smooth operation. That's the brutal honesty of it Add to that Joe Bloggs who puts in a fake food poisoning complaint in the hope of getting a freebie. They don't realise it's now got to be logged, a full investigation done, file on the allegation made, reported to all relevant personnel and probable visit from HSE. All this coz someone wants compo or a voucher for a free meal. If the odd customer weren't such selfish pricks out for themselves, it would make the life of a chef a touch less stressful. I’m sorry but that doesn’t all have to happen! What do you do then? Genuinely curious." Initially ask for a doctors report. Record product, time date they ate. .... wait..... keep waiting..... wait some more..... it’s all gone quiet! While this appears flippant it’s genuinely what I have done. I think less than once per year the complaint would come from Council and I would respond with the information gathered, show due diligence info from the period affected, number of those meals served from that batch ... never had further action. If all things I found these easiest to deal with | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then?? I admire your dedication, but why is ensuring customers get food served to them at the exact moment they want it, so vital. I mean if I want a manicure or a car service at 4am, I can't just go to the manicurist or mechanic and demand it. I have to wait until they are open... No one goes out to eat in a restaurant when it's closed do they? That's a daft analogy. Everyone will anticipate a wait of say 30 minutes at a busy time. I think everyone understands it takes time to cook food..... '\ /'
I was responding to the poster who said he stayed open until 4am until everyone was fed.
I suppose a better analogy would be if I turned up at a manicurist thirty Mins before closing to find a long queue and demand they stay open until they can manicure me...
Like customers that are at the bar at 11pm last orders, but because they're standing at the bar at 11 and not approaching the bar after 11 should be served? Just like that.
No, I am obviously not saying that, there has to be some reasonable flexibility.
I am just intrigued as to why everyone who has worked in the industry seems to take such masochistic pride on having a shit working life because customers demand it.
I stayed open until 4am because I had customers in, spending money.If there was nobody in, I'd close at 12, but I'm not going to call time on paying customers! Maybe that's because it was my own business and I'd take the trade when I could, but even so, any business in this current climate would be daft to turn away customers at a set time.Its part and parcel of the industry, if you turn customers away, there'll soon be plenty of time for breaks "I totally get that. I don't get what people don't get about it. | |||
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"My son is doing an apprenticeship as a chef, after receiving a job offer from where he was working part-time, (while at college doing a chef course), to put him through his certificated training on a very good salary. The place that he is working has opportunities, status and a standard that would be impossible to find locally anywhere else, and in many ways is a golden opportunity for him, almost something that would come once, at an establishment of this nature, for someone so young and previously inexperience. He is working in a very busy, organised, high status and well run kitchen and mostly enjoys his job. The problem is he's only 17 and he's working extremely long hours and without the breaks that legally he is supposed to get. He has occasionally worked in excess of 9 hours without even a 15-minute break. He is working a minimum of a 50 hour week. He has tried discussing it with the head chef, but they have said that a chef job involves extremely hard work and long hours and if he wants it this is what he has to do. They are not at all receptive to the problem, although they do treat him very well apart from this issue. He doesn't want to cause any trouble, and he doesn't want to find another job, it is unlikely he would find anything on this kind of salary, without even the fact they are going to be paying for his accreditation. He is now getting so tired and fed up as he feels he is doing nothing else but work apart from on his two, midweek days off two days off. He doesn't have much social life these days, with long working hours, and not a lot of time to see his friends or behave like a teenager does. I don't really see what I can do to help, if we go in talking about a acas, and legal breaks, I don't really think it's going to help him, and his mum contacting them up would seem very juvenile in the situation adult world that he is in. Has anybody got any suggestions, or have experienced something similar? I really understand how is feeling, and want to support him, but neither of us have been able to think of a way, and I feel if he carries on he's going to end up leaving, and giving up an irreplaceable opportunity, although, I understand totally why he would do that. He feels he is unable to change the situation, and just for information purposes, he also would not return to any kind of college or school situation, e feels that he has put that all behind now apart from hopefully getting his accreditation on the job. Thanks for any advice xBeing a chef demands working unsocial hours and long hours I know he's young and by sounds of things he's appreciating the opportunity but it's his age that should help him because he has the stamina and the desire to be good at what he is doing, in all jobs/careers these days when you are at work you're at work they the employer demand your time and by sounds of things he's being paid well to although the break thing doesn't sound good I think he will just have to get his head down save some money and make the most of his two days off. Most chefs I've known over the years and I've worked in hotel industry a lot work long hours once he has his relevant experience and qualifications he will then be able to dictate more about how he works it but as parents I can see how you feel "My oldest daughter became a manager at a very young age she was doing 70 hours a week and not even getting paid for anything over her contracted hours but it paid off in the end she's earning extremely good money now still working long hours mind | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then?? I admire your dedication, but why is ensuring customers get food served to them at the exact moment they want it, so vital. I mean if I want a manicure or a car service at 4am, I can't just go to the manicurist or mechanic and demand it. I have to wait until they are open... No one goes out to eat in a restaurant when it's closed do they? That's a daft analogy. Everyone will anticipate a wait of say 30 minutes at a busy time. I think everyone understands it takes time to cook food..... '\ /'
I was responding to the poster who said he stayed open until 4am until everyone was fed.
I suppose a better analogy would be if I turned up at a manicurist thirty Mins before closing to find a long queue and demand they stay open until they can manicure me...
Like customers that are at the bar at 11pm last orders, but because they're standing at the bar at 11 and not approaching the bar after 11 should be served? Just like that.
No, I am obviously not saying that, there has to be some reasonable flexibility.
I am just intrigued as to why everyone who has worked in the industry seems to take such masochistic pride on having a shit working life because customers demand it.
I stayed open until 4am because I had customers in, spending money.If there was nobody in, I'd close at 12, but I'm not going to call time on paying customers! Maybe that's because it was my own business and I'd take the trade when I could, but even so, any business in this current climate would be daft to turn away customers at a set time.Its part and parcel of the industry, if you turn customers away, there'll soon be plenty of time for breaks "I think it does make a difference if it's your own business, given that the extra money you get goes to you and you have the choice as to whether to do it or not. It's obviously different if you're an employee and are told by your boss you have to do it. | |||
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"In Scotland I know if you’re under 18 you legally aren’t allowed to work more than 40 hours a week. I got a childcare apprenticeship when I was 17 and was contracted to 40 hours, but they were putting me down for overtime and making me do it. I eventually done some research and a senior member of staff was concerned so phoned an outside organisation so they could intervene. Even if you offer to do more than 40 hours a week, it’s still illegal. This is what I was told and found online anyway x" And how did that end up for you ? | |||
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"In Scotland I know if you’re under 18 you legally aren’t allowed to work more than 40 hours a week. I got a childcare apprenticeship when I was 17 and was contracted to 40 hours, but they were putting me down for overtime and making me do it. I eventually done some research and a senior member of staff was concerned so phoned an outside organisation so they could intervene. Even if you offer to do more than 40 hours a week, it’s still illegal. This is what I was told and found online anyway x And how did that end up for you ? " My manager said that if I was ‘that bothered’ then I wouldn’t do over 40 hours until I turned 18. Or I could be ‘helpful’ and not complain or tell anyone. I told them yes, I was bothered, I had course work to do on top of working 40 hours a week so I didn’t do overtime until I turned 18. And even then I didn’t do it often as I wanted a day for my coursework (I did four ten hour shifts a week with a half an hour lunch break). | |||
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"Must be nice having a life where you work 9-5, break for an hour at 12 be home for 6, tea ready at 7. Not everyone has a job like that, despite what THE LAW says." It's not just about working unsocial hours though. It's the number of hours which is done without a break which is illegal. | |||
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"So many people need to realise that catering in general is a vocation.If you want to down tools on the stroke of 5 and go back home to watch the early evening news and dinner then you're in the wrong job If you want to take a break at 1pm because you're entitled to it, bugger the fact that it's the busiest time of the day, you're in the wrong job If you're not prepared to stay after your allotted finishing time to ensure that everything is ready for the next day, or to make sure that last minute customer gets the same quality meal as the first customer of the day did, you're in the wrong job I've run pubs and a tapas bar where I've continued serving until 4 in the morning because I had customers who wanted it and they were paying me for the service. Lots of people look down on hospitality workers as ' only catering, anyone can do that' So you never go out to eat and drink then?? I admire your dedication, but why is ensuring customers get food served to them at the exact moment they want it, so vital. I mean if I want a manicure or a car service at 4am, I can't just go to the manicurist or mechanic and demand it. I have to wait until they are open... No one goes out to eat in a restaurant when it's closed do they? That's a daft analogy. Everyone will anticipate a wait of say 30 minutes at a busy time. I think everyone understands it takes time to cook food..... '\ /'
I was responding to the poster who said he stayed open until 4am until everyone was fed.
I suppose a better analogy would be if I turned up at a manicurist thirty Mins before closing to find a long queue and demand they stay open until they can manicure me...
Like customers that are at the bar at 11pm last orders, but because they're standing at the bar at 11 and not approaching the bar after 11 should be served? Just like that.
No, I am obviously not saying that, there has to be some reasonable flexibility.
I am just intrigued as to why everyone who has worked in the industry seems to take such masochistic pride on having a shit working life because customers demand it.
I stayed open until 4am because I had customers in, spending money.If there was nobody in, I'd close at 12, but I'm not going to call time on paying customers! Maybe that's because it was my own business and I'd take the trade when I could, but even so, any business in this current climate would be daft to turn away customers at a set time.Its part and parcel of the industry, if you turn customers away, there'll soon be plenty of time for breaks "Are you licensed to be open until 4am? | |||
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