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Incel Rebellion

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

The term incel is short for 'involuntary celibate'. It is a phenomum that is increasingly of interest to psychologists, due to the potential link to terrorism and murders.

Essentially, incels are conventually unattractive men who don't take rejection from women well. The internet now enables them to find echo chamber communities where they can get indoctrinated into very mysongist views and nihilism. These attitudes make them even more toxic to women and hence it's a downwards spiral.

In the case of Canadian Alek Minassian, this lead to him killing 10 people. He wrote about an 'incel rebellion' on Facebook before the attack. There is speculation that incels may be attracted to terrorist organisations, but it's an area that needs more research.

Any thoughts anyone?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wow! Not heard of that before. Thats actually a scary thought!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Are psychologists saying that being an incel is a stresser for being violent or indoctrination? Or is it the other way around?

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By *ihimbiherCouple
over a year ago

lightwater

None

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By *AYENCouple
over a year ago

Lincolnshire

Makes sense ....

K

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Toxic masculinity

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *rongstantineWoman
over a year ago

hull

Absolutely fascinated by both this and mgtow culture. There was apparently a massive incel following on Reddit, which ultimately got banned as it spiralled into the discussion of the destruction of women.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Toxic masculinity"

No it's actually the opposite so please leave ideology out of this

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *lbert_shlossedMan
over a year ago

Manchester

So they want sex but can't have sex, hmmmm seems like most teenage boys to be honest!

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Absolutely fascinated by both this and mgtow culture. There was apparently a massive incel following on Reddit, which ultimately got banned as it spiralled into the discussion of the destruction of women. "

Yes, reddit had to block it. But there are other platforms where they exist, 4chan I believe

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Toxic masculinity"

My view is this rhetoric adds fuel to the fire. One echo chamber feeding off its equal and opposite and both amplifying.

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *lbert_shlossedMan
over a year ago

Manchester


"Toxic masculinity"
.

Lop em off hey?.

Works for dogs

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Are psychologists saying that being an incel is a stresser for being violent or indoctrination? Or is it the other way around?"

I don't think anyone knows yet. I think it works like a spiral. The fundamental issue is that these are men who don't think "Oh what can I change to make myself more attractive", they go and look for reasons why it's not their fault.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ineMan
over a year ago

In cave behind a waterfall on a hill


"Absolutely fascinated by both this and mgtow culture. There was apparently a massive incel following on Reddit, which ultimately got banned as it spiralled into the discussion of the destruction of women. "

Logic deficit? Guys who can't get sex want to destroy women

I think the revolution may just die out

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yawn

There's always a different " term" these days for everything.

Regardless of where the violence stems from - it's still violence.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Toxic masculinity

My view is this rhetoric adds fuel to the fire. One echo chamber feeding off its equal and opposite and both amplifying.

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

"

It's not toxic masculinity at all. These guys are very non-masculine which is why they get so much rejection to start with. They are self identified "beta males". Women generally like masculinity.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *retty womanWoman
over a year ago

Near Bournemouth


"Yawn

There's always a different " term" these days for everything.

Regardless of where the violence stems from - it's still violence.

"

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

"

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Yawn

There's always a different " term" these days for everything.

Regardless of where the violence stems from - it's still violence.

"

But how can you prevent it unless you know where it stems from

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I wondered what an incel meant. Now I know.

They should probably all think about something more constructive rather than woe is me.

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By *lenderfoxMan
over a year ago

Leeds

Read a few articles on this and find it fascinating and equally disturbing.

No doubt 4Chan has played it's part in it's development

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

"

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *lenderfoxMan
over a year ago

Leeds


"Toxic masculinity

My view is this rhetoric adds fuel to the fire. One echo chamber feeding off its equal and opposite and both amplifying.

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

It's not toxic masculinity at all. These guys are very non-masculine which is why they get so much rejection to start with. They are self identified "beta males". Women generally like masculinity. "

From what i've read they hate on alpha-male types as well (though not to the same extent) as women

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Yawn

There's always a different " term" these days for everything.

Regardless of where the violence stems from - it's still violence.

But how can you prevent it unless you know where it stems from"

You can't.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The internet now enables them to find echo chamber communities where they can get indoctrinated into very mysongist views and nihilism. "

This seems to be somewhat of a problem with the internet in general, the filter bubble problem. I definitely think it could end up making you more extreme in your beliefs if you only surrounded yourself with people and media which fits your opinion, so I can see why indoctrination may happen.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Toxic masculinity

My view is this rhetoric adds fuel to the fire. One echo chamber feeding off its equal and opposite and both amplifying.

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

It's not toxic masculinity at all. These guys are very non-masculine which is why they get so much rejection to start with. They are self identified "beta males". Women generally like masculinity. "

I understand that...but the connotation is still irksome right?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *rongstantineWoman
over a year ago

hull


"Absolutely fascinated by both this and mgtow culture. There was apparently a massive incel following on Reddit, which ultimately got banned as it spiralled into the discussion of the destruction of women.

Logic deficit? Guys who can't get sex want to destroy women

I think the revolution may just die out "

That's where the mgtow comes into play, although I imagine the majority of their conversations are about women, ironically.

Maybe destruction was the wrong choice of word, but the punishment of women, definitely and as seen by the Columbine shooting, a hit at society.

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By *lenderfoxMan
over a year ago

Leeds


"The internet now enables them to find echo chamber communities where they can get indoctrinated into very mysongist views and nihilism.

This seems to be somewhat of a problem with the internet in general, the filter bubble problem. I definitely think it could end up making you more extreme in your beliefs if you only surrounded yourself with people and media which fits your opinion, so I can see why indoctrination may happen."

100% agreed. Certain social media algorthyms have a lot to answer for

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Yawn

There's always a different " term" these days for everything.

Regardless of where the violence stems from - it's still violence.

But how can you prevent it unless you know where it stems from

You can't."

So since we want to prevent it, the cause is highly relevant

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong"

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *lbert_shlossedMan
over a year ago

Manchester


"Toxic masculinity

My view is this rhetoric adds fuel to the fire. One echo chamber feeding off its equal and opposite and both amplifying.

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

It's not toxic masculinity at all. These guys are very non-masculine which is why they get so much rejection to start with. They are self identified "beta males". Women generally like masculinity. "
.

Of course women like masculinity, there's hundreds of thousands of years of evolution that makes it so!.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Toxic masculinity

My view is this rhetoric adds fuel to the fire. One echo chamber feeding off its equal and opposite and both amplifying.

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

It's not toxic masculinity at all. These guys are very non-masculine which is why they get so much rejection to start with. They are self identified "beta males". Women generally like masculinity.

From what i've read they hate on alpha-male types as well (though not to the same extent) as women"

Yes, the culmination is an indsicrimate killing fields by general hatred and nihilism.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *lighty1Woman
over a year ago

You Dont Need to Know, right now

'Incel' is not a concept I have come across before. However, I am concerned that giving such a phenomenon a 'label' is not a good move. The very fact that there is a label will encourage disgruntled people to move further along the disgruntled continuum. "Oh, that's me. And there are other people like me. Therefore we must be right." Potentially triggering adverse effects.

Just think about the proportion of single guys on here, for a year or more without getting a meet. Many of them are very 'down', judging by their posts. We want to encourage them back to the mainstream, encourage them to work out how they can be more successful in achieving their goals, not label them as a counter-culture which is becoming 'accepted'.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait. "

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"'Incel' is not a concept I have come across before. However, I am concerned that giving such a phenomenon a 'label' is not a good move. The very fact that there is a label will encourage disgruntled people to move further along the disgruntled continuum. "Oh, that's me. And there are other people like me. Therefore we must be right." Potentially triggering adverse effects.

Just think about the proportion of single guys on here, for a year or more without getting a meet. Many of them are very 'down', judging by their posts. We want to encourage them back to the mainstream, encourage them to work out how they can be more successful in achieving their goals, not label them as a counter-culture which is becoming 'accepted'."

Interesting points

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Are psychologists saying that being an incel is a stresser for being violent or indoctrination? Or is it the other way around?

I don't think anyone knows yet. I think it works like a spiral. The fundamental issue is that these are men who don't think "Oh what can I change to make myself more attractive", they go and look for reasons why it's not their fault. "

That reads as quite a familiar view point! Perhaps I’m guilty of false equivalency here but that has echos in many SM reactions to failure on fab. Based on resentment of rejection and a large dose of entitlement.

I’m not saying that fab guys are about to get recruited but there are echoes in behaviour

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"

From what i've read they hate on alpha-male types as well (though not to the same extent) as women"

Misogyny is becoming recognised increasingly as a common thread in a lot of terrorist atrocities.

I'd call that pretty toxic when it is vented with machetes and automatic weapons. But you are correct, the term "toxic masculinity" has been coined to describe different characteristics.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine. "

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *lenderfoxMan
over a year ago

Leeds


"Are psychologists saying that being an incel is a stresser for being violent or indoctrination? Or is it the other way around?

I don't think anyone knows yet. I think it works like a spiral. The fundamental issue is that these are men who don't think "Oh what can I change to make myself more attractive", they go and look for reasons why it's not their fault.

That reads as quite a familiar view point! Perhaps I’m guilty of false equivalency here but that has echos in many SM reactions to failure on fab. Based on resentment of rejection and a large dose of entitlement.

I’m not saying that fab guys are about to get recruited but there are echoes in behaviour"

There are parallels with some types for sure

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Are psychologists saying that being an incel is a stresser for being violent or indoctrination? Or is it the other way around?

I don't think anyone knows yet. I think it works like a spiral. The fundamental issue is that these are men who don't think "Oh what can I change to make myself more attractive", they go and look for reasons why it's not their fault.

That reads as quite a familiar view point! Perhaps I’m guilty of false equivalency here but that has echos in many SM reactions to failure on fab. Based on resentment of rejection and a large dose of entitlement.

I’m not saying that fab guys are about to get recruited but there are echoes in behaviour"

Yes, this is like the ultimate extreme of that path

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maybe compassion instead of derision for these guys might help makes the outcomes less worse?

I don't know how that would work, but just a thought.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait. "

Well said

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do. "

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 15/07/18 19:10:15]

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By *ineMan
over a year ago

In cave behind a waterfall on a hill

[Incel removed by poster at 15/07/18 19:10:15]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 15/07/18 19:11:36]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Biting my tongue.

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By *lighty1Woman
over a year ago

You Dont Need to Know, right now


"Maybe compassion instead of derision for these guys might help makes the outcomes less worse?

I don't know how that would work, but just a thought.

"

It is difficult sometimes, when we've heard the same crass comment from different solo males, 20 times in a row. But you're right, derision is NOT the way to encourage better behaviours.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance. "

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ineMan
over a year ago

In cave behind a waterfall on a hill


"Biting my tongue."

Me too now

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By *lenderfoxMan
over a year ago

Leeds


"Biting my tongue."

Chuckled at your deleted comment

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Maybe compassion instead of derision for these guys might help makes the outcomes less worse?

I don't know how that would work, but just a thought.

It is difficult sometimes, when we've heard the same crass comment from different solo males, 20 times in a row. But you're right, derision is NOT the way to encourage better behaviours."

Really? Ostracising people is the primary way groups of most cultures regulate behaviour. It works the vast majority of the time since humans have a deep need for companionship. The problem seems to be that these ostracised men can once again regain a virtual form of that companionship without correcting their behaviours.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I view incels and the worst of rad feminists as equal opposites - both generally dejected by the opposite sex...one side sexless and the other side getting laid but also getting used up, spun out and unable to partner up.

The women on average being less violent are less of an acute threat but a threat nonetheless on a wider level as both sides wind each other up to fever pitch and there is no fire without fuel.

The feminists also carry a degree of credibility - their misandrous message is less acutely dangerous but does more chronic damage to the harmony of society.

In contrast, misogyny is universally frowned upon.

We see examples of both day in day out on fab.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *lbert_shlossedMan
over a year ago

Manchester

Were just finding more and more high brow nonsense to cover up old failings.

Some people are bad and do bad things, what happened to personal responsibility, family values, and parental responsibility?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Maybe compassion instead of derision for these guys might help makes the outcomes less worse?

I don't know how that would work, but just a thought.

It is difficult sometimes, when we've heard the same crass comment from different solo males, 20 times in a row. But you're right, derision is NOT the way to encourage better behaviours.

Really? Ostracising people is the primary way groups of most cultures regulate behaviour. It works the vast majority of the time since humans have a deep need for companionship. The problem seems to be that these ostracised men can once again regain a virtual form of that companionship without correcting their behaviours. "

Exactly...in traditional society being outcast was death literally. Now there is an alternative shelter.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not? "

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Were just finding more and more high brow nonsense to cover up old failings.

Some people are bad and do bad things, what happened to personal responsibility, family values, and parental responsibility?"

Personally I'm more interested in early intervention than cover up.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point. "

So if a woman our incel has his eyes on goes off with another man whom the incel thinks is unsuitable for her, given that would constitute a dispute with said man, our incel would be acting in a masculine way if he used violence on him?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *lbert_shlossedMan
over a year ago

Manchester


"Were just finding more and more high brow nonsense to cover up old failings.

Some people are bad and do bad things, what happened to personal responsibility, family values, and parental responsibility?

Personally I'm more interested in early intervention than cover up. "
.

People generally do stuff because they think they can get away with it, we went soft on crime when we all developed this social feelings stuff, now everything is somebody else's fault and nobody's to blame for anything except trump who's to blame for everything

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can someone clarify what toxic maculinity actuslly means?

Is masculinity itself toxic or just a subset of men are themselves fucked up = toxic?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Were just finding more and more high brow nonsense to cover up old failings.

Some people are bad and do bad things, what happened to personal responsibility, family values, and parental responsibility?"

Exactly. Why cant these people think beyond the end of their own dick for a change. Do something bloody useful, start an orphanage, find a cure for cancer, rescue dogs. Why does success have to be measured in getting sex or what other people could or should give us.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Were just finding more and more high brow nonsense to cover up old failings.

Some people are bad and do bad things, what happened to personal responsibility, family values, and parental responsibility?

Personally I'm more interested in early intervention than cover up. .

People generally do stuff because they think they can get away with it, we went soft on crime when we all developed this social feelings stuff, now everything is somebody else's fault and nobody's to blame for anything except trump who's to blame for everything"

So I take it that if you had a 100% guarantee you would get away with it, you would kill a 90 year old woman for her jewels?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point.

So if a woman our incel has his eyes on goes off with another man whom the incel thinks is unsuitable for her, given that would constitute a dispute with said man, our incel would be acting in a masculine way if he used violence on him? "

Read that yourself and pretend you're someone else. You know you're clutching at straws.

To answer your previous question. Masculinity is typically traits that passed down from men because they gave an evolutionary advantage in our history. Please educate me on the evolutionary advantage of randomly killing members of your tribe

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Maybe compassion instead of derision for these guys might help makes the outcomes less worse?

I don't know how that would work, but just a thought.

"

It does seem to be a case of people blaming everybody and everything else for their own frustrations. Hopefully most of them will grow out of it.

Having read some of the threads they posted,it definitely seemed to be afew frustrated and angry young men being egged on and wound up by a more hardcore and vicious elite. The former group are possibly more deserving of compassion than the latter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can we stop equating masculinity with violence by default? It doesn't hold logicslly in all situations, e.g. catfights.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Were just finding more and more high brow nonsense to cover up old failings.

Some people are bad and do bad things, what happened to personal responsibility, family values, and parental responsibility?

Exactly. Why cant these people think beyond the end of their own dick for a change. Do something bloody useful, start an orphanage, find a cure for cancer, rescue dogs. Why does success have to be measured in getting sex or what other people could or should give us.

"

They are higher functions of the brain.

Sex and food are buried much deeper.

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By *lbert_shlossedMan
over a year ago

Manchester


"Were just finding more and more high brow nonsense to cover up old failings.

Some people are bad and do bad things, what happened to personal responsibility, family values, and parental responsibility?

Personally I'm more interested in early intervention than cover up. .

People generally do stuff because they think they can get away with it, we went soft on crime when we all developed this social feelings stuff, now everything is somebody else's fault and nobody's to blame for anything except trump who's to blame for everything

So I take it that if you had a 100% guarantee you would get away with it, you would kill a 90 year old woman for her jewels? "
.

How much are the Jewels worth?

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Can we stop equating masculinity with violence by default? It doesn't hold logicslly in all situations, e.g. catfights. "

But men are violent by default, we commit something like ~95% of murders in every country that has stats. What I object to is crudely lumping mass murder of strangers into the same category as an armed robbery gone wrong.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point.

So if a woman our incel has his eyes on goes off with another man whom the incel thinks is unsuitable for her, given that would constitute a dispute with said man, our incel would be acting in a masculine way if he used violence on him?

Read that yourself and pretend you're someone else. You know you're clutching at straws.

To answer your previous question. Masculinity is typically traits that passed down from men because they gave an evolutionary advantage in our history. Please educate me on the evolutionary advantage of randomly killing members of your tribe "

What you mean like me and all other men have a strong urge to go out hunting given it had an evolutionary advantage thousands of years ago?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point.

So if a woman our incel has his eyes on goes off with another man whom the incel thinks is unsuitable for her, given that would constitute a dispute with said man, our incel would be acting in a masculine way if he used violence on him?

Read that yourself and pretend you're someone else. You know you're clutching at straws.

To answer your previous question. Masculinity is typically traits that passed down from men because they gave an evolutionary advantage in our history. Please educate me on the evolutionary advantage of randomly killing members of your tribe

What you mean like me and all other men have a strong urge to go out hunting given it had an evolutionary advantage thousands of years ago? "

The overwhelming majority of men have a strong urge to be the bread winner and would not be happy as house husbands provided for by a wife. Are you aware that most your arguments rest of framing as opposed to good logic?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point. "

What do you call the school shootings?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Can we stop equating masculinity with violence by default? It doesn't hold logicslly in all situations, e.g. catfights.

But men are violent by default, we commit something like ~95% of murders in every country that has stats. What I object to is crudely lumping mass murder of strangers into the same category as an armed robbery gone wrong. "

I get your point and agree....but not all violence is commited by men. Nuance brother. You can't create a dculpture with a logical sledge hammer.

The vast majority of men are non violent until needs must.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point.

What do you call the school shootings?"

They are mass murders typically committed by ostracised men who are overwhelmed by anger at the world and a nihilist world view.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *lbert_shlossedMan
over a year ago

Manchester


"Can we stop equating masculinity with violence by default? It doesn't hold logicslly in all situations, e.g. catfights.

But men are violent by default, we commit something like ~95% of murders in every country that has stats. What I object to is crudely lumping mass murder of strangers into the same category as an armed robbery gone wrong. "
.

Oh good grief,a small proportion of men are committing all the violence and the robberies and the crime.

Let's stick to correcting they're bad behaviour which in my opinion is from the lack of societal cohesion, a downgrading of family values and a soft justice system.

In Japan there'll give you prison for taking cocaine, here we think it's all the fault of the bogey man

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Arguments based on evolutionary psychology/biology while convincing and often at least half right are too prone to being misconstrued to say virtually anything.

It's all unprovable subjective conjecture at the end of the day.

Within men for example there exists the full spectrum of personality, some hot headed and others cool as a cucumber.

You don't have to be an unhinged butcher to be manly.

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine. "

I think perhaps your interpretation is reflective of societal attitudes, and therefore misses the validity (whether intended or not) in the original comment.

I'd agree, there is definitely an element of toxic masculinity involved in this - and your counter-argument that this guy was anything but masculine reinforces that.

Because in truth, masculinity is a spectrum - there is not one immutable definition of what it is...being a beta male is just another form of masculinity, though one not recognised as such by society, which subscribes to the archetype of the "big, strong, powerful male" - and I'd argue that that *is* toxic masculinity.

It's attitudes like that that lead to suicide being the leading cause of death for men under the age of 45 or whatever it is now. That whole "men don't talk about their feelings" bullshit and everything else that's wrapped up in what society expects 'real men' to be is all part and parcel of this incel phenomenon, which is frankly pretty fucking depressing.

I mean, not that women have got it easy - the shit society puts on them makes me glad I'm not a woman for sure - but the whole societal attitudes thing is pretty fucked every which way to be honest

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point.

So if a woman our incel has his eyes on goes off with another man whom the incel thinks is unsuitable for her, given that would constitute a dispute with said man, our incel would be acting in a masculine way if he used violence on him?

Read that yourself and pretend you're someone else. You know you're clutching at straws.

To answer your previous question. Masculinity is typically traits that passed down from men because they gave an evolutionary advantage in our history. Please educate me on the evolutionary advantage of randomly killing members of your tribe

What you mean like me and all other men have a strong urge to go out hunting given it had an evolutionary advantage thousands of years ago?

The overwhelming majority of men have a strong urge to be the bread winner and would not be happy as house husbands provided for by a wife. Are you aware that most your arguments rest of framing as opposed to good logic? "

Are you aware your argument is undisprovable in the Popperian sense?

You have adopted as dogma the tenets of what one might call vulgar evolutionary biology. Given that dogma, anything one does today has to be based on what was rational behaviour circa the stone age. (though I am unclear why that period should be your year zero. Rather than, say, the bronze age or the middle ages).

When it is pointed out that much behaviour is today radically different from behaviour in the stone age you say, as you are doing here, that the behaviour is essentially the same. Thus, me going to work as a lawyer is apparently fundamentally the same thing as hunting mammoths.

Given that if you look hard enough, you can always find Similarities between anything, whatever I say about behaviour today, you will explain it as an adaptation of stone age behaviour on the basis of some connection between them.

Hence an undisprovable argument and hence another theological argument.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I wonder has internet dating had an effect and screened out what little success the lowest 5% of guys would have gotten in a real life smaller dating pool?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Hence an undisprovable argument and hence another theological argument. "

Thanks for saying what I was trying to say in a much clearer way.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Because in truth, masculinity is a spectrum - there is not one immutable definition of what it is...being a beta male is just another form of masculinity, though one not recognised as such by society, which subscribes to the archetype of the "big, strong, powerful male" - and I'd argue that that *is* toxic masculinity.

"

I'll go one step further and say that toxic masculinity is a crude, crass, unfair and dangerous idea.

In the words of Charlie Munger ...invert, always invert.

We wouldn't for a moment try to claim that the nature of women is fundamentally wrong.

This is the dark corner that modern feminism is dragging us into. An unfair world where we only look at one side of the coin, as fashion dictates.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

I think perhaps your interpretation is reflective of societal attitudes, and therefore misses the validity (whether intended or not) in the original comment.

I'd agree, there is definitely an element of toxic masculinity involved in this - and your counter-argument that this guy was anything but masculine reinforces that.

Because in truth, masculinity is a spectrum - there is not one immutable definition of what it is...being a beta male is just another form of masculinity, though one not recognised as such by society, which subscribes to the archetype of the "big, strong, powerful male" - and I'd argue that that *is* toxic masculinity.

It's attitudes like that that lead to suicide being the leading cause of death for men under the age of 45 or whatever it is now. That whole "men don't talk about their feelings" bullshit and everything else that's wrapped up in what society expects 'real men' to be is all part and parcel of this incel phenomenon, which is frankly pretty fucking depressing.

I mean, not that women have got it easy - the shit society puts on them makes me glad I'm not a woman for sure - but the whole societal attitudes thing is pretty fucked every which way to be honest "

What's the definition of toxic masculinity?

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

Given that if you look hard enough, you can always find Similarities between anything, "

Which is what i think you are doing when you simplisticly lump indiscriminate mass murder in with botched armed robbery. They are only similar at the most basic and intuative level.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

What's the definition of toxic masculinity?"

That's what I'd love to know - ideally from someone in deep on gender theory/studies.

I'm guessing we'll get a non-offensive definition that casually ignores the simple and direct meaning any "layperson" naturally assumes when two words are put together.

To my ear, it reads that masculinity is toxic.

It's a crafty trick...propaganda even.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

What's the definition of toxic masculinity?

That's what I'd love to know - ideally from someone in deep on gender theory/studies.

I'm guessing we'll get a non-offensive definition that casually ignores the simple and direct meaning any "layperson" naturally assumes when two words are put together.

To my ear, it reads that masculinity is toxic.

It's a crafty trick...propaganda even. "

It's probably like patriarchy where you can't get a proper straight forward definition of love nor money

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

What's the definition of toxic masculinity?

That's what I'd love to know - ideally from someone in deep on gender theory/studies.

I'm guessing we'll get a non-offensive definition that casually ignores the simple and direct meaning any "layperson" naturally assumes when two words are put together.

To my ear, it reads that masculinity is toxic.

It's a crafty trick...propaganda even.

It's probably like patriarchy where you can't get a proper straight forward definition of love nor money"

And god forbid the ire if you ask for a reasoned plan on how to go about creating positive change.

We all love a good boogeyman story.

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"What's the definition of toxic masculinity?"

I would say it's a huge number of things, encapsulated by all kinds of behaviours and attitudes - from the "ugly bitch, I didn't want to fuck you anyway" responses some (many?) blokes seem to have to rejection, through to that video (if you've seen it) of the comparison between a guy and a girl having a massive row in public, and when the guy manhandles the girl loads of blokes step in, but when the girl beats on the guy people walk past laughing.

I'd argue it's not something that is solely the preserve of men, but rather is a much broader societal issue, that is underpinned by attempts to define what 'masculinity' is in very narrow terms

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've gotten my head around patriarchal culture a bit...if you look to countries where women have less agency and tend to marry for resources instead of love you are getting close.

It's far removed from modern western culture where the patriarchal boogeyman supposedly roams largest while women excel in university and build careers of their choosing and marry who they want.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"What's the definition of toxic masculinity?

I would say it's a huge number of things, encapsulated by all kinds of behaviours and attitudes - from the "ugly bitch, I didn't want to fuck you anyway" responses some (many?) blokes seem to have to rejection, through to that video (if you've seen it) of the comparison between a guy and a girl having a massive row in public, and when the guy manhandles the girl loads of blokes step in, but when the girl beats on the guy people walk past laughing.

I'd argue it's not something that is solely the preserve of men, but rather is a much broader societal issue, that is underpinned by attempts to define what 'masculinity' is in very narrow terms"

Well thanks for trying but that wasn't really a definition. That was two examples. Isn't there a proper authorative source with a simple definition spanning a couple of sentences?

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes

I guess fundamentally for me, it's this idea that a 'real' man has to exhibit these 'manly man' characteristics.

I think the outcome is bad for men and women alike

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"What's the definition of toxic masculinity?

I would say it's a huge number of things, encapsulated by all kinds of behaviours and attitudes - from the "ugly bitch, I didn't want to fuck you anyway" responses some (many?) blokes seem to have to rejection, through to that video (if you've seen it) of the comparison between a guy and a girl having a massive row in public, and when the guy manhandles the girl loads of blokes step in, but when the girl beats on the guy people walk past laughing.

I'd argue it's not something that is solely the preserve of men, but rather is a much broader societal issue, that is underpinned by attempts to define what 'masculinity' is in very narrow terms

Well thanks for trying but that wasn't really a definition. That was two examples. Isn't there a proper authorative source with a simple definition spanning a couple of sentences? "

I rather suspect my definition doesn't correlate with the generally accepted one

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"What's the definition of toxic masculinity?

I would say it's a huge number of things, encapsulated by all kinds of behaviours and attitudes - from the "ugly bitch, I didn't want to fuck you anyway" responses some (many?) blokes seem to have to rejection, through to that video (if you've seen it) of the comparison between a guy and a girl having a massive row in public, and when the guy manhandles the girl loads of blokes step in, but when the girl beats on the guy people walk past laughing.

I'd argue it's not something that is solely the preserve of men, but rather is a much broader societal issue, that is underpinned by attempts to define what 'masculinity' is in very narrow terms"

I think you are talking about quirks of culture. What you have said doesn't really have anything to do with masculinity itself.

I think if you are struggling to explain it with meta examples, it highlights that it's a problematic notion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So are we saying that exaggerated standards of masculinity are the toxic part?

Could we develop a better term?

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes

Here goes:

Toxic masculinity: the notion that to be a 'real man' men have to exhibit traditional archetypes of stoicism, assertiveness and aggressiveness. That talking about or having feelings is somehow 'unmanly', that being willing to be flexible or compromise is 'weak' and that above all else a man should use either physical force or force of character to take control of a situation and establish position and dominance

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"I guess fundamentally for me, it's this idea that a 'real' man has to exhibit these 'manly man' characteristics.

I think the outcome is bad for men and women alike"

I don't really see the link myself. I think we could quite easily draw a spectrum of typically masculine and feminine traits that we agree on. Then we'd accept that all places along that spectrum are valid (i.e. society is not best constructed with 100% beer drinking, deer shooting, lumberjacks).

The issue is that some guys aren't displaying any traits that make them attractive to women. I don't think the issue is that their place on the spectrum isn't valued highly.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Here goes:

Toxic masculinity: the notion that to be a 'real man' men have to exhibit traditional archetypes of stoicism, assertiveness and aggressiveness. That talking about or having feelings is somehow 'unmanly', that being willing to be flexible or compromise is 'weak' and that above all else a man should use either physical force or force of character to take control of a situation and establish position and dominance"

I think that only works if you add that only 'real men' should get to mate with females. I don't see what's toxic about having an eptomie of a male, until you start saying that people outside of that epitomie are inherently inferior.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think I will stay well clear of all men who are not attractive to women and men who've been in prison, also any men that airport sniffer dogs are attracted to

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'd argue that stoicism and assertiveness (and appropriate aggression as a sub charecteristic) are essential attributes that characterise the best of men and not the worst actors..... who if you think about it are unable to control their emotions and resort to violence or to use your earlier example... abusive messages when rejected.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"I think I will stay well clear of all men who are not attractive to women and men who've been in prison, also any men that airport sniffer dogs are attracted to "

Good strategy

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So is ambition (exerted effort to rise within a heirarchy) toxic too?

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"Here goes:

Toxic masculinity: the notion that to be a 'real man' men have to exhibit traditional archetypes of stoicism, assertiveness and aggressiveness. That talking about or having feelings is somehow 'unmanly', that being willing to be flexible or compromise is 'weak' and that above all else a man should use either physical force or force of character to take control of a situation and establish position and dominance

I think that only works if you add that only 'real men' should get to mate with females. I don't see what's toxic about having an eptomie of a male, until you start saying that people outside of that epitomie are inherently inferior. "

Is it not implicit in the notion of a 'real man' that anyone not epitomising these qualities is inherently inferior?

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"I'd argue that stoicism and assertiveness (and appropriate aggression as a sub charecteristic) are essential attributes that characterise the best of men and not the worst actors..... who if you think about it are unable to control their emotions and resort to violence or to use your earlier example... abusive messages when rejected.

"

I'm not saying those qualities are in and of themselves negative - but more the expectation that they are qualities all men should possess and if they don't they're a failure

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By *lceeWoman
over a year ago

Leeds

This is something I’ve been following on Reddit and 4chan for a while now. It’s not just women that they end up wanting to destroy but guys who are good with women too. Though their definition of a Chad is anyone who gets laid, ever, including the nice guy who coaches high school basketball who has only ever been with his childhood sweetheart.

It’s sad. Not in the modern sense of the term but actually sad to see. These are guys, usually suffering from a crippling lack of self-esteem ,who have been rejected on multiple occasions. They have few friendships and often seem not to have access to healthy relationship models growing up. So they find a sense of community amongst others who feel the same way. Just like any group of people who feel dispossessed and marginalised, they feed off each others’ hurt and pain and channel it into anger. I don’t see it as something to be dismissed or trivialised...these guys need help to overcome their social anxieties.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Or self confidence (force of chsracter)...is that toxic too?

I'm purposefully nitpicking.

I think what you want to call toxic masculinity is actually a mix of various bad pathologies mixed with a bit of herd behaviour.

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"So is ambition (exerted effort to rise within a heirarchy) toxic too?

"

I think it's not possible to say without provisos - raw, naked ambition that will let nothing stand in its way, regardless of who you have to fuck over to get there...yes, I'd say that's toxic.

Relentless ambition that surmounted obstacles but not at the expense of ethical values...absolutely not

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'd argue that stoicism and assertiveness (and appropriate aggression as a sub charecteristic) are essential attributes that characterise the best of men and not the worst actors..... who if you think about it are unable to control their emotions and resort to violence or to use your earlier example... abusive messages when rejected.

I'm not saying those qualities are in and of themselves negative - but more the expectation that they are qualities all men should possess and if they don't they're a failure"

But I highlighted that a failure to possess them ends in butthurt men abusing women. It doesn't stand up to reason.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"So is ambition (exerted effort to rise within a heirarchy) toxic too?

I think it's not possible to say without provisos - raw, naked ambition that will let nothing stand in its way, regardless of who you have to fuck over to get there...yes, I'd say that's toxic.

Relentless ambition that surmounted obstacles but not at the expense of ethical values...absolutely not"

Yeah it's called sociapathy

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"Or self confidence (force of chsracter)...is that toxic too?

I'm purposefully nitpicking.

I think what you want to call toxic masculinity is actually a mix of various bad pathologies mixed with a bit of herd behaviour. "

Self-confidence, no. Arrogance, yes

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Here goes:

Toxic masculinity: the notion that to be a 'real man' men have to exhibit traditional archetypes of stoicism, assertiveness and aggressiveness. That talking about or having feelings is somehow 'unmanly', that being willing to be flexible or compromise is 'weak' and that above all else a man should use either physical force or force of character to take control of a situation and establish position and dominance

I think that only works if you add that only 'real men' should get to mate with females. I don't see what's toxic about having an eptomie of a male, until you start saying that people outside of that epitomie are inherently inferior.

Is it not implicit in the notion of a 'real man' that anyone not epitomising these qualities is inherently inferior?"

I don't think so, no. Especially not these days when nerd culture is cool in some alternative sense. Could we imagine Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg being incels!? Fuck even Stephen Hawkins never found himself single for long.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"So is ambition (exerted effort to rise within a heirarchy) toxic too?

I think it's not possible to say without provisos - raw, naked ambition that will let nothing stand in its way, regardless of who you have to fuck over to get there...yes, I'd say that's toxic.

Relentless ambition that surmounted obstacles but not at the expense of ethical values...absolutely not

Yeah it's called sociapathy"

And notably women can be just as sociopathic. Nothing to do with masculinity.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is something I’ve been following on Reddit and 4chan for a while now. It’s not just women that they end up wanting to destroy but guys who are good with women too. Though their definition of a Chad is anyone who gets laid, ever, including the nice guy who coaches high school basketball who has only ever been with his childhood sweetheart.

It’s sad. Not in the modern sense of the term but actually sad to see. These are guys, usually suffering from a crippling lack of self-esteem ,who have been rejected on multiple occasions. They have few friendships and often seem not to have access to healthy relationship models growing up. So they find a sense of community amongst others who feel the same way. Just like any group of people who feel dispossessed and marginalised, they feed off each others’ hurt and pain and channel it into anger. I don’t see it as something to be dismissed or trivialised...these guys need help to overcome their social anxieties. "

Good point! I'd forgotten about their "Chad and Stacy" line.

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By *ickygirl41Woman
over a year ago

Glasgow


"Toxic masculinity

My view is this rhetoric adds fuel to the fire. One echo chamber feeding off its equal and opposite and both amplifying.

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

"

Absolutely nothing wrong with being masculine but it is so very often the pressure to be a certain type of masculine without the ability to express, release etc, and that man is a failure otherwise, the pressure to provide, be strong, don't cry "be a man"

Masculinity is awesome but the version if it we have now seems to do more damage to young men.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Here goes:

Toxic masculinity: the notion that to be a 'real man' men have to exhibit traditional archetypes of stoicism, assertiveness and aggressiveness. That talking about or having feelings is somehow 'unmanly', that being willing to be flexible or compromise is 'weak' and that above all else a man should use either physical force or force of character to take control of a situation and establish position and dominance

I think that only works if you add that only 'real men' should get to mate with females. I don't see what's toxic about having an eptomie of a male, until you start saying that people outside of that epitomie are inherently inferior.

Is it not implicit in the notion of a 'real man' that anyone not epitomising these qualities is inherently inferior?

I don't think so, no. Especially not these days when nerd culture is cool in some alternative sense. Could we imagine Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg being incels!? Fuck even Stephen Hawkins never found himself single for long. "

And going off topic ...I chuckled to myself when I saw that the CEOs of uberpowerful Google and Microsoft are both Indian.

White privilege my arse.

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"I'd argue that stoicism and assertiveness (and appropriate aggression as a sub charecteristic) are essential attributes that characterise the best of men and not the worst actors..... who if you think about it are unable to control their emotions and resort to violence or to use your earlier example... abusive messages when rejected.

I'm not saying those qualities are in and of themselves negative - but more the expectation that they are qualities all men should possess and if they don't they're a failure

But I highlighted that a failure to possess them ends in butthurt men abusing women. It doesn't stand up to reason. "

But perhaps the situation is more nuanced than that?

If a guy wasn't indoctrinated to define his masculinity - his success or failure as man in effect - through his 'conquests' of women (and the fact they can even be thought of as 'conquests' is indicative of what im trying to identify) then perhaps there wouldnt be the same reaction, because they wouldnt feel like such a failure and therefore be so butthurt?

I dunno man. I don't have the answers. I'm a misanthrope; the human race will probably wipe itself out in a few centuries and we'll probably have earnt it in fairness

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Toxic masculinity

My view is this rhetoric adds fuel to the fire. One echo chamber feeding off its equal and opposite and both amplifying.

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

Absolutely nothing wrong with being masculine but it is so very often the pressure to be a certain type of masculine without the ability to express, release etc, and that man is a failure otherwise, the pressure to provide, be strong, don't cry "be a man"

Masculinity is awesome but the version if it we have now seems to do more damage to young men. "

Everytime I see the words "Fragile male ego" rolled out it solidifies the social flaw of having to save face by being the strong man.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

And going off topic ...I chuckled to myself when I saw that the CEOs of uberpowerful Google and Microsoft are both Indian.

White privilege my arse.

"

Asians have always been the thorn in the white privilege argument

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"Here goes:

Toxic masculinity: the notion that to be a 'real man' men have to exhibit traditional archetypes of stoicism, assertiveness and aggressiveness. That talking about or having feelings is somehow 'unmanly', that being willing to be flexible or compromise is 'weak' and that above all else a man should use either physical force or force of character to take control of a situation and establish position and dominance

I think that only works if you add that only 'real men' should get to mate with females. I don't see what's toxic about having an eptomie of a male, until you start saying that people outside of that epitomie are inherently inferior.

Is it not implicit in the notion of a 'real man' that anyone not epitomising these qualities is inherently inferior?

I don't think so, no. Especially not these days when nerd culture is cool in some alternative sense. Could we imagine Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg being incels!? Fuck even Stephen Hawkins never found himself single for long. "

Hmmm...I take your point.

Although, perhaps for these uncles that just makes things worse?

"Hey! That nerd is getting some! Why can't I? Waaaaaaahh!" etc?

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"I'd argue that stoicism and assertiveness (and appropriate aggression as a sub charecteristic) are essential attributes that characterise the best of men and not the worst actors..... who if you think about it are unable to control their emotions and resort to violence or to use your earlier example... abusive messages when rejected.

I'm not saying those qualities are in and of themselves negative - but more the expectation that they are qualities all men should possess and if they don't they're a failure

But I highlighted that a failure to possess them ends in butthurt men abusing women. It doesn't stand up to reason.

But perhaps the situation is more nuanced than that?

If a guy wasn't indoctrinated to define his masculinity - his success or failure as man in effect - through his 'conquests' of women (and the fact they can even be thought of as 'conquests' is indicative of what im trying to identify) then perhaps there wouldnt be the same reaction, because they wouldnt feel like such a failure and therefore be so butthurt?

"

That is a good point, but i see it as part of a wider problem with anyone who defines their self worth by external validation. I think the fundamental problem with incels is that they won't admit they can solve their problems with their own efforts. Most men reason they can. Hence I think they are very much a minority culture.

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"So is ambition (exerted effort to rise within a heirarchy) toxic too?

I think it's not possible to say without provisos - raw, naked ambition that will let nothing stand in its way, regardless of who you have to fuck over to get there...yes, I'd say that's toxic.

Relentless ambition that surmounted obstacles but not at the expense of ethical values...absolutely not

Yeah it's called sociapathy

And notably women can be just as sociopathic. Nothing to do with masculinity. "

Yeah, I never said otherwise. You brought up the ambition thing

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Here goes:

Toxic masculinity: the notion that to be a 'real man' men have to exhibit traditional archetypes of stoicism, assertiveness and aggressiveness. That talking about or having feelings is somehow 'unmanly', that being willing to be flexible or compromise is 'weak' and that above all else a man should use either physical force or force of character to take control of a situation and establish position and dominance

I think that only works if you add that only 'real men' should get to mate with females. I don't see what's toxic about having an eptomie of a male, until you start saying that people outside of that epitomie are inherently inferior.

Is it not implicit in the notion of a 'real man' that anyone not epitomising these qualities is inherently inferior?

I don't think so, no. Especially not these days when nerd culture is cool in some alternative sense. Could we imagine Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg being incels!? Fuck even Stephen Hawkins never found himself single for long.

Hmmm...I take your point.

Although, perhaps for these uncles that just makes things worse?

"Hey! That nerd is getting some! Why can't I? Waaaaaaahh!" etc?"

Thank you for trying with the definition too. I have no issue with people revising their opinions or adding nuance either. So thanks for accepting the challenge.

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"Toxic masculinity

My view is this rhetoric adds fuel to the fire. One echo chamber feeding off its equal and opposite and both amplifying.

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

Absolutely nothing wrong with being masculine but it is so very often the pressure to be a certain type of masculine without the ability to express, release etc, and that man is a failure otherwise, the pressure to provide, be strong, don't cry "be a man"

Masculinity is awesome but the version if it we have now seems to do more damage to young men.

Everytime I see the words "Fragile male ego" rolled out it solidifies the social flaw of having to save face by being the strong man. "

Exactly. It's like the whole "man the fuck up" thing, which fine - I've said it myself, and it has its place to a degree I guess, but I heard someone use it when talking about a guy whose grandmother had died, and he was really close to her and therefore upset, and it was a bit

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'd argue that stoicism and assertiveness (and appropriate aggression as a sub charecteristic) are essential attributes that characterise the best of men and not the worst actors..... who if you think about it are unable to control their emotions and resort to violence or to use your earlier example... abusive messages when rejected.

I'm not saying those qualities are in and of themselves negative - but more the expectation that they are qualities all men should possess and if they don't they're a failure

But I highlighted that a failure to possess them ends in butthurt men abusing women. It doesn't stand up to reason.

But perhaps the situation is more nuanced than that?

If a guy wasn't indoctrinated to define his masculinity - his success or failure as man in effect - through his 'conquests' of women (and the fact they can even be thought of as 'conquests' is indicative of what im trying to identify) then perhaps there wouldnt be the same reaction, because they wouldnt feel like such a failure and therefore be so butthurt?

I dunno man. I don't have the answers. I'm a misanthrope; the human race will probably wipe itself out in a few centuries and we'll probably have earnt it in fairness"

Maybe it's just the way it is and we're all talking shit...conquests = success on here at least with the best guys getting all the girls and leaving slim pickings for the rest (and none for the incels).

Of maybe to really screw my own earlier point men are hardwired to spread the seed on an evolutionary basis and that represents success.

But then again like domesticated animals we have domesticated ourselves over millenia to favour true kinship over siring random kids everywhere as the real benchmark of success and are just acting out a flawed advertisement for what is good for us.

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"I'd argue that stoicism and assertiveness (and appropriate aggression as a sub charecteristic) are essential attributes that characterise the best of men and not the worst actors..... who if you think about it are unable to control their emotions and resort to violence or to use your earlier example... abusive messages when rejected.

I'm not saying those qualities are in and of themselves negative - but more the expectation that they are qualities all men should possess and if they don't they're a failure

But I highlighted that a failure to possess them ends in butthurt men abusing women. It doesn't stand up to reason.

But perhaps the situation is more nuanced than that?

If a guy wasn't indoctrinated to define his masculinity - his success or failure as man in effect - through his 'conquests' of women (and the fact they can even be thought of as 'conquests' is indicative of what im trying to identify) then perhaps there wouldnt be the same reaction, because they wouldnt feel like such a failure and therefore be so butthurt?

That is a good point, but i see it as part of a wider problem with anyone who defines their self worth by external validation. I think the fundamental problem with incels is that they won't admit they can solve their problems with their own efforts. Most men reason they can. Hence I think they are very much a minority culture.

"

I think we all bloody better hope they're the minority!

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By *riefcase_WankerMan
over a year ago

Milton Keynes


"Here goes:

Toxic masculinity: the notion that to be a 'real man' men have to exhibit traditional archetypes of stoicism, assertiveness and aggressiveness. That talking about or having feelings is somehow 'unmanly', that being willing to be flexible or compromise is 'weak' and that above all else a man should use either physical force or force of character to take control of a situation and establish position and dominance

I think that only works if you add that only 'real men' should get to mate with females. I don't see what's toxic about having an eptomie of a male, until you start saying that people outside of that epitomie are inherently inferior.

Is it not implicit in the notion of a 'real man' that anyone not epitomising these qualities is inherently inferior?

I don't think so, no. Especially not these days when nerd culture is cool in some alternative sense. Could we imagine Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg being incels!? Fuck even Stephen Hawkins never found himself single for long.

Hmmm...I take your point.

Although, perhaps for these uncles that just makes things worse?

"Hey! That nerd is getting some! Why can't I? Waaaaaaahh!" etc?

Thank you for trying with the definition too. I have no issue with people revising their opinions or adding nuance either. So thanks for accepting the challenge. "

Always willing to change my mind when presented with an argument I've got no answer for

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington


"Are psychologists saying that being an incel is a stresser for being violent or indoctrination? Or is it the other way around?"
They're not saying a nything of the sort. ANy psychologist who does sidewalk diagnosis of this kind is a charlatan.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While not warriors or athletes, Gates and Zuckerberg are exceptionally disagreeable (big 5 traits) which correlates higher in men and thus are masculine by one definition.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"While not warriors or athletes, Gates and Zuckerberg are exceptionally disagreeable (big 5 traits) which correlates higher in men and thus are masculine by one definition. "

Indeed, but if we rewind 60,000 years then i reckon I'd do better in the dating market than them. Their traits are much more appreciated in the modern society.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"While not warriors or athletes, Gates and Zuckerberg are exceptionally disagreeable (big 5 traits) which correlates higher in men and thus are masculine by one definition.

Indeed, but if we rewind 60,000 years then i reckon I'd do better in the dating market than them. Their traits are much more appreciated in the modern society. "

At least now you see where you earlier argument was a bit bogus

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

[Removed by poster at 15/07/18 20:49:18]

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"While not warriors or athletes, Gates and Zuckerberg are exceptionally disagreeable (big 5 traits) which correlates higher in men and thus are masculine by one definition.

Indeed, but if we rewind 60,000 years then i reckon I'd do better in the dating market than them. Their traits are much more appreciated in the modern society.

At least now you see where you earlier argument was a bit bogus "

Which bit?

Can you put a trigger warning before you say something like that please

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Looks like we've now formed our own echo chamber of half baked barely intelligible quasi-intellectual BS and not a single strong independent warrioress whacktivist will come tell us how it has about the original sins of masculinity.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"While not warriors or athletes, Gates and Zuckerberg are exceptionally disagreeable (big 5 traits) which correlates higher in men and thus are masculine by one definition.

Indeed, but if we rewind 60,000 years then i reckon I'd do better in the dating market than them. Their traits are much more appreciated in the modern society.

At least now you see where you earlier argument was a bit bogus

Which bit?

Can you put a trigger warning before you say something like that please"

Did you bring lube?

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"While not warriors or athletes, Gates and Zuckerberg are exceptionally disagreeable (big 5 traits) which correlates higher in men and thus are masculine by one definition.

Indeed, but if we rewind 60,000 years then i reckon I'd do better in the dating market than them. Their traits are much more appreciated in the modern society.

At least now you see where you earlier argument was a bit bogus

Which bit?

Can you put a trigger warning before you say something like that please

Did you bring lube?

"

I left it in my safe space

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

"

Thanks..

In my view a "real" man is appropriately tender but tough when needs be.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

"

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages "

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

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By *entenTeaCouple
over a year ago

Buckley North Wales


"This is something I’ve been following on Reddit and 4chan for a while now. It’s not just women that they end up wanting to destroy but guys who are good with women too. Though their definition of a Chad is anyone who gets laid, ever, including the nice guy who coaches high school basketball who has only ever been with his childhood sweetheart.

It’s sad. Not in the modern sense of the term but actually sad to see. These are guys, usually suffering from a crippling lack of self-esteem ,who have been rejected on multiple occasions. They have few friendships and often seem not to have access to healthy relationship models growing up. So they find a sense of community amongst others who feel the same way. Just like any group of people who feel dispossessed and marginalised, they feed off each others’ hurt and pain and channel it into anger. I don’t see it as something to be dismissed or trivialised...these guys need help to overcome their social anxieties. "

I think you summarised the issue excellently. I fully agree they need help with confidence and self image. I find their concept of the Chad deeply flawed. Their concept of masculinity is very simplistic. I think they have always been there its just now the internet has given them a form of community. I also feel that porn has totaly skewed their sence of what physical love and sexuality.

Many don't realise how generaly mundane most people's sex lives are. Sadly, I think many will age into very cynical, bitter, miserable and unpleasant old men. So your suggestion for help is all the more necessary.

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By *entenTeaCouple
over a year ago

Buckley North Wales

[Removed by poster at 15/07/18 21:00:52]

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way? "

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is something I’ve been following on Reddit and 4chan for a while now. It’s not just women that they end up wanting to destroy but guys who are good with women too. Though their definition of a Chad is anyone who gets laid, ever, including the nice guy who coaches high school basketball who has only ever been with his childhood sweetheart.

It’s sad. Not in the modern sense of the term but actually sad to see. These are guys, usually suffering from a crippling lack of self-esteem ,who have been rejected on multiple occasions. They have few friendships and often seem not to have access to healthy relationship models growing up. So they find a sense of community amongst others who feel the same way. Just like any group of people who feel dispossessed and marginalised, they feed off each others’ hurt and pain and channel it into anger. I don’t see it as something to be dismissed or trivialised...these guys need help to overcome their social anxieties.

I think you summarised the issue excellently. I fully agree they need help with confidence and self image. I find their concept of the Chad deeply flawed. Their concept of masculinity is very simplistic. I think they have always been there its just now the internet has given them a form of community. I also feel that porn has totaly skewed their sence of what physical love and sexuality.

Many don't realise how generaly mundane most people's sex lives are. Sadly, I think many will age into very cynical, bitter, miserable and unpleasant old men. So your suggestion for help is all the more necessary."

Good points, well made

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *isaB45Woman
over a year ago

Fabville


"This is something I’ve been following on Reddit and 4chan for a while now. It’s not just women that they end up wanting to destroy but guys who are good with women too. Though their definition of a Chad is anyone who gets laid, ever, including the nice guy who coaches high school basketball who has only ever been with his childhood sweetheart.

It’s sad. Not in the modern sense of the term but actually sad to see. These are guys, usually suffering from a crippling lack of self-esteem ,who have been rejected on multiple occasions. They have few friendships and often seem not to have access to healthy relationship models growing up. So they find a sense of community amongst others who feel the same way. Just like any group of people who feel dispossessed and marginalised, they feed off each others’ hurt and pain and channel it into anger. I don’t see it as something to be dismissed or trivialised...these guys need help to overcome their social anxieties. "

Sadly, these marginalised (mostly) young men may not be intending to go on to commit awful crimes, but they are vulnerable enough to be brainwashed by those men who are truely evil and intent on doing so.

My concern is here, on Fab, we regularly see posts by young men, complaining that they are not getting meets. We've all observed their sense of entitlement. What happens when this happens in their real life?

We are not entitled to have sex. Yes, it's good to have it, but no-one is obliged to have sex, just because someone is entitled to a shag.

FaF?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way. "

You must have led a charmed life then

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then "

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is something I’ve been following on Reddit and 4chan for a while now. It’s not just women that they end up wanting to destroy but guys who are good with women too. Though their definition of a Chad is anyone who gets laid, ever, including the nice guy who coaches high school basketball who has only ever been with his childhood sweetheart.

It’s sad. Not in the modern sense of the term but actually sad to see. These are guys, usually suffering from a crippling lack of self-esteem ,who have been rejected on multiple occasions. They have few friendships and often seem not to have access to healthy relationship models growing up. So they find a sense of community amongst others who feel the same way. Just like any group of people who feel dispossessed and marginalised, they feed off each others’ hurt and pain and channel it into anger. I don’t see it as something to be dismissed or trivialised...these guys need help to overcome their social anxieties.

Sadly, these marginalised (mostly) young men may not be intending to go on to commit awful crimes, but they are vulnerable enough to be brainwashed by those men who are truely evil and intent on doing so.

My concern is here, on Fab, we regularly see posts by young men, complaining that they are not getting meets. We've all observed their sense of entitlement. What happens when this happens in their real life?

We are not entitled to have sex. Yes, it's good to have it, but no-one is obliged to have sex, just because someone is entitled to a shag.

FaF?"

Indeed it's a worrying mix.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then "

I disagree. I vividly remember my first lesson in school about sharing.

Who does the teaching?

In my experience, all the stuff about not crying etc. comes from a boy's own peers of the same age. Not the parents or teachers. Maybe it's a bit hardwired...like the boys don't want to play with girls until they want to start chasing them once puberty fires up.

#Thinking out loud

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world. "

As a man you probably won't have received the angry messages a lot, most?, of the women have had here when they've rejected a man. You probably won't have experienced being objectified by men and you probably won't have had men intimidating you because they know you're weaker than them. I don't think women are paranoid, I think they're justly frightened.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

I disagree. I vividly remember my first lesson in school about sharing.

Who does the teaching?

In my experience, all the stuff about not crying etc. comes from a boy's own peers of the same age. Not the parents or teachers. Maybe it's a bit hardwired...like the boys don't want to play with girls until they want to start chasing them once puberty fires up.

#Thinking out loud "

As males, we have displays of dominance that come before violence. Violence is usually risky so on some level, we all like to avoid it even if we are confident we can win. I would agree that it's more peer related, if one boy can make another boy cry then it's a display of dominance / humiliation.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

As a man you probably won't have received the angry messages a lot, most?,

"

False


"

of the women have had here when they've rejected a man. You probably won't have experienced being objectified by men

"

True


"

and you probably won't have had men intimidating you because they know you're weaker than them.

"

True


"

I don't think women are paranoid, I think they're justly frightened."

I would also like to add that such behaviour is disgusting and unmanly.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke

Anyway, we are near the end of the thread. Some great contributions here and I'm pleased how many people are interested in the term / concept. Sadly I think we'll hear more about it in the news

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point.

So if a woman our incel has his eyes on goes off with another man whom the incel thinks is unsuitable for her, given that would constitute a dispute with said man, our incel would be acting in a masculine way if he used violence on him?

Read that yourself and pretend you're someone else. You know you're clutching at straws.

To answer your previous question. Masculinity is typically traits that passed down from men because they gave an evolutionary advantage in our history. Please educate me on the evolutionary advantage of randomly killing members of your tribe

What you mean like me and all other men have a strong urge to go out hunting given it had an evolutionary advantage thousands of years ago?

The overwhelming majority of men have a strong urge to be the bread winner and would not be happy as house husbands provided for by a wife. Are you aware that most your arguments rest of framing as opposed to good logic?

Are you aware your argument is undisprovable in the Popperian sense?

You have adopted as dogma the tenets of what one might call vulgar evolutionary biology. Given that dogma, anything one does today has to be based on what was rational behaviour circa the stone age. (though I am unclear why that period should be your year zero. Rather than, say, the bronze age or the middle ages).

When it is pointed out that much behaviour is today radically different from behaviour in the stone age you say, as you are doing here, that the behaviour is essentially the same. Thus, me going to work as a lawyer is apparently fundamentally the same thing as hunting mammoths.

Given that if you look hard enough, you can always find Similarities between anything, whatever I say about behaviour today, you will explain it as an adaptation of stone age behaviour on the basis of some connection between them.

Hence an undisprovable argument and hence another theological argument. "

People read too little Karl Popper. They should read about his most important contribution (aside from falsifiability in science). That was the Tolerance Paradox. Liberals want to be tolerant even to the intolerant, who care not a jot about niceties such as truth and justice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

As a man you probably won't have received the angry messages a lot, most?,

False

of the women have had here when they've rejected a man. You probably won't have experienced being objectified by men

True

and you probably won't have had men intimidating you because they know you're weaker than them.

True

I don't think women are paranoid, I think they're justly frightened.

I would also like to add that such behaviour is disgusting and unmanly. "

No. It's very manly if you define manly as a common male trait.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world. "

I dont know that we are even talking about the same thing anymore. You've never met or even heard of people being told to punch first ask questions later. Get the first punch in. Learn violence is the only way from peers/parents/siblings. Lads being jeered on to fight called a wimp if they don't.

That was my observation of toxic masculinity, anger before questioning. Nothing to do with being able to play rugby?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm a second hand fan of popper and I wish to God that liberals could actually be tolerant....but the majority aren't.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm a second hand fan of popper and I wish to God that liberals could actually be tolerant....but the majority aren't.

"

You're a liberal? I'm surprised

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

As a man you probably won't have received the angry messages a lot, most?,

False

of the women have had here when they've rejected a man. You probably won't have experienced being objectified by men

True

and you probably won't have had men intimidating you because they know you're weaker than them.

True

I don't think women are paranoid, I think they're justly frightened.

I would also like to add that such behaviour is disgusting and unmanly.

No. It's very manly if you define manly as a common male trait."

It's not common for men to forcibly intimidate women. That's cherry picking from the effect of bad news. That behaviour is derided in every culture.

Never hit a women is the golden rule of anything resembling what it means to be masculine.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

As a man you probably won't have received the angry messages a lot, most?,

False

of the women have had here when they've rejected a man. You probably won't have experienced being objectified by men

True

and you probably won't have had men intimidating you because they know you're weaker than them.

True

I don't think women are paranoid, I think they're justly frightened.

I would also like to add that such behaviour is disgusting and unmanly.

No. It's very manly if you define manly as a common male trait."

I don't think there's any evidence that women take rejection any better than men. What is it they say about a woman scorned?

It's not manly in any sense regarding what a reasonably intelligent, typical father would teach a son about ideal male behaviour.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm a second hand fan of popper and I wish to God that liberals could actually be tolerant....but the majority aren't.

You're a liberal? I'm surprised "

Liberal to the core.

See how your own intolerance is cropping up...you rush to assume I'm a right wing manosphere nut just because I criticise feminism.

I'm a wound be feminist until I met a girl who had been brainwashed to think 1/4 men are rapists = FACT. I crossed the Rubicon.

I do it for reasons of their intolerance and failure to be objective to the wider problems of society, propensity to use propaganda and importantly because they have a veneer of credibility that other dogmatic movements do not.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

I dont know that we are even talking about the same thing anymore. You've never met or even heard of people being told to punch first ask questions later. Get the first punch in.

"

No


"

Learn violence is the only way from peers/parents/siblings.

"

No


"

Lads being jeered on to fight called a wimp if they don't.

"

Yes


"

That was my observation of toxic masculinity, anger before questioning. Nothing to do with being able to play rugby?"

You said I must have had a charmed life. I'm saying that I've known a lot of very manly men and don't recognise the culture you're painting. I very much doubt you have first hand experience of what you're talking about.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

As a man you probably won't have received the angry messages a lot, most?,

False

of the women have had here when they've rejected a man. You probably won't have experienced being objectified by men

True

and you probably won't have had men intimidating you because they know you're weaker than them.

True

I don't think women are paranoid, I think they're justly frightened.

I would also like to add that such behaviour is disgusting and unmanly.

No. It's very manly if you define manly as a common male trait.

It's not common for men to forcibly intimidate women. That's cherry picking from the effect of bad news. That behaviour is derided in every culture.

Never hit a women is the golden rule of anything resembling what it means to be masculine.

"

I didn’t use the word forcibly which implies physical aggression. Intimidation of women by men takes many forms, which might be hard for you to imagine as you , as a man, won’t ever have experienced it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm a second hand fan of popper and I wish to God that liberals could actually be tolerant....but the majority aren't.

You're a liberal? I'm surprised

Liberal to the core.

See how your own intolerance is cropping up...you rush to assume I'm a right wing manosphere nut just because I criticise feminism.

I'm a wound be feminist until I met a girl who had been brainwashed to think 1/4 men are rapists = FACT. I crossed the Rubicon.

I do it for reasons of their intolerance and failure to be objective to the wider problems of society, propensity to use propaganda and importantly because they have a veneer of credibility that other dogmatic movements do not. "

I think you missed my inference .

But that aside you appear to be as dogmatic as those you’re criticising.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm inclined to imagine that some of that intimidation is perceived...especially by those who believe in r*pe as a culture.

I bet you cross the street late at night if any man is present.

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point.

So if a woman our incel has his eyes on goes off with another man whom the incel thinks is unsuitable for her, given that would constitute a dispute with said man, our incel would be acting in a masculine way if he used violence on him?

Read that yourself and pretend you're someone else. You know you're clutching at straws.

To answer your previous question. Masculinity is typically traits that passed down from men because they gave an evolutionary advantage in our history. Please educate me on the evolutionary advantage of randomly killing members of your tribe

What you mean like me and all other men have a strong urge to go out hunting given it had an evolutionary advantage thousands of years ago?

The overwhelming majority of men have a strong urge to be the bread winner and would not be happy as house husbands provided for by a wife. Are you aware that most your arguments rest of framing as opposed to good logic?

Are you aware your argument is undisprovable in the Popperian sense?

You have adopted as dogma the tenets of what one might call vulgar evolutionary biology. Given that dogma, anything one does today has to be based on what was rational behaviour circa the stone age. (though I am unclear why that period should be your year zero. Rather than, say, the bronze age or the middle ages).

When it is pointed out that much behaviour is today radically different from behaviour in the stone age you say, as you are doing here, that the behaviour is essentially the same. Thus, me going to work as a lawyer is apparently fundamentally the same thing as hunting mammoths.

Given that if you look hard enough, you can always find Similarities between anything, whatever I say about behaviour today, you will explain it as an adaptation of stone age behaviour on the basis of some connection between them.

Hence an undisprovable argument and hence another theological argument.

People read too little Karl Popper. They should read about his most important contribution (aside from falsifiability in science). That was the Tolerance Paradox. Liberals want to be tolerant even to the intolerant, who care not a jot about niceties such as truth and justice."

Don't see the relevance here sorry

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

I dont know that we are even talking about the same thing anymore. You've never met or even heard of people being told to punch first ask questions later. Get the first punch in.

No

Learn violence is the only way from peers/parents/siblings.

No

Lads being jeered on to fight called a wimp if they don't.

Yes

That was my observation of toxic masculinity, anger before questioning. Nothing to do with being able to play rugby?

You said I must have had a charmed life. I'm saying that I've known a lot of very manly men and don't recognise the culture you're painting. I very much doubt you have first hand experience of what you're talking about. "

We aren't talking about manly men though are we heavens. We are talking about toxic culture that can twist the viewpoints of the vulnerable.

And thanks no, as a man you must be right about my life experiences. Silly old me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm a second hand fan of popper and I wish to God that liberals could actually be tolerant....but the majority aren't.

You're a liberal? I'm surprised

Liberal to the core.

See how your own intolerance is cropping up...you rush to assume I'm a right wing manosphere nut just because I criticise feminism.

I'm a wound be feminist until I met a girl who had been brainwashed to think 1/4 men are rapists = FACT. I crossed the Rubicon.

I do it for reasons of their intolerance and failure to be objective to the wider problems of society, propensity to use propaganda and importantly because they have a veneer of credibility that other dogmatic movements do not.

I think you missed my inference .

But that aside you appear to be as dogmatic as those you’re criticising."

I'd like to think I'm not at all but I'm open to being shown where. My thoughts are well organised on these things and I can defend them reasonably.

I condemn boths movement that have a toxic core that all men are bastards or are all women are bitches. Thankfully the latter doesn't get corporate sponsorship and is of its own undoing but feminism needs to be brought out into daylight for people the see some of the fucked up nasty elements wrapped in a sweet believeable package of well honed half truths.

The real feminists are working hard in the patriarchal cultures I alluded to, to give women more agency where they need it and have my support. The quacks are dreaming up first world problems to sell books and blog hits.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm inclined to imagine that some of that intimidation is perceived...especially by those who believe in r*pe as a culture.

I bet you cross the street late at night if any man is present. "

I don't believe that r is a culture. But I do believe that many men don't value or respect women. And by calling me a liar, telling me my experiences are only a perception, you've done nothing to make me think you're any different.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

I dont know that we are even talking about the same thing anymore. You've never met or even heard of people being told to punch first ask questions later. Get the first punch in.

No

Learn violence is the only way from peers/parents/siblings.

No

Lads being jeered on to fight called a wimp if they don't.

Yes

That was my observation of toxic masculinity, anger before questioning. Nothing to do with being able to play rugby?

You said I must have had a charmed life. I'm saying that I've known a lot of very manly men and don't recognise the culture you're painting. I very much doubt you have first hand experience of what you're talking about.

We aren't talking about manly men though are we heavens. We are talking about toxic culture that can twist the viewpoints of the vulnerable.

And thanks no, as a man you must be right about my life experiences. Silly old me.

"

I'm going back to my kittens and silly thoughts

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point.

So if a woman our incel has his eyes on goes off with another man whom the incel thinks is unsuitable for her, given that would constitute a dispute with said man, our incel would be acting in a masculine way if he used violence on him?

Read that yourself and pretend you're someone else. You know you're clutching at straws.

To answer your previous question. Masculinity is typically traits that passed down from men because they gave an evolutionary advantage in our history. Please educate me on the evolutionary advantage of randomly killing members of your tribe

What you mean like me and all other men have a strong urge to go out hunting given it had an evolutionary advantage thousands of years ago?

The overwhelming majority of men have a strong urge to be the bread winner and would not be happy as house husbands provided for by a wife. Are you aware that most your arguments rest of framing as opposed to good logic?

Are you aware your argument is undisprovable in the Popperian sense?

You have adopted as dogma the tenets of what one might call vulgar evolutionary biology. Given that dogma, anything one does today has to be based on what was rational behaviour circa the stone age. (though I am unclear why that period should be your year zero. Rather than, say, the bronze age or the middle ages).

When it is pointed out that much behaviour is today radically different from behaviour in the stone age you say, as you are doing here, that the behaviour is essentially the same. Thus, me going to work as a lawyer is apparently fundamentally the same thing as hunting mammoths.

Given that if you look hard enough, you can always find Similarities between anything, whatever I say about behaviour today, you will explain it as an adaptation of stone age behaviour on the basis of some connection between them.

Hence an undisprovable argument and hence another theological argument.

People read too little Karl Popper. They should read about his most important contribution (aside from falsifiability in science). That was the Tolerance Paradox. Liberals want to be tolerant even to the intolerant, who care not a jot about niceties such as truth and justice."

I'm a great believer in what John Stuart Mill said. If you let people put forward Shit arguments, their shittiness will be exposed. Suppress them, and they get the unwarranted veneer of martyr.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

I dont know that we are even talking about the same thing anymore. You've never met or even heard of people being told to punch first ask questions later. Get the first punch in.

No

Learn violence is the only way from peers/parents/siblings.

No

Lads being jeered on to fight called a wimp if they don't.

Yes

That was my observation of toxic masculinity, anger before questioning. Nothing to do with being able to play rugby?

You said I must have had a charmed life. I'm saying that I've known a lot of very manly men and don't recognise the culture you're painting. I very much doubt you have first hand experience of what you're talking about.

We aren't talking about manly men though are we heavens. We are talking about toxic culture that can twist the viewpoints of the vulnerable.

And thanks no, as a man you must be right about my life experiences. Silly old me.

"

I'm genuinely baffled where you find evidence for the behaviours and culture you described? Since my experience is so wildly different, and i consider my upbringing pretty typical, I'm genuinely confused where the situation you described would be taking place.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

And on a personal note...what's wrong with being masculine?

If you study the Canadian case, you may well come to the conclusion that masculinity was exceedingly toxic.

As i said above, he was a self described "beta male" so you literally couldn't be more wrong

It all depends how you define masculinity, of course. Some would feel that a sense of entitlement to sex with women is a very masculine trait.

The problem with this guy was definitely not that he was too masculine.

Given that murderers are overwhelmingly male, you could say that killing ten people is a very masculine thing to do.

You could say that, but you'd highlight a simplistic, reductionist and ignorant world view that is entirely devoid of nuance.

How would you define a masculine trait? I would say it's a trait more commonly exhibited in men than women. Thus murdering, watching football and farting in public are all masculine traits.

Anyhow, wasn't it you yourself who said the other day that men solve disputes with violence. That being the case, these incels are reacting in an entirely masculine way are they not?

No, but thank you for highlighting why you point is invalid. Attacking random people is not solving a dispute. Yes murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, but the reasons are rarely random. Men normally kill to solve arguments, to steal, to defend, in war or have some goal in mind. Murder for the sake of murder is very rare. Hence the lack of nuance in your point.

So if a woman our incel has his eyes on goes off with another man whom the incel thinks is unsuitable for her, given that would constitute a dispute with said man, our incel would be acting in a masculine way if he used violence on him?

Read that yourself and pretend you're someone else. You know you're clutching at straws.

To answer your previous question. Masculinity is typically traits that passed down from men because they gave an evolutionary advantage in our history. Please educate me on the evolutionary advantage of randomly killing members of your tribe

What you mean like me and all other men have a strong urge to go out hunting given it had an evolutionary advantage thousands of years ago?

The overwhelming majority of men have a strong urge to be the bread winner and would not be happy as house husbands provided for by a wife. Are you aware that most your arguments rest of framing as opposed to good logic?

Are you aware your argument is undisprovable in the Popperian sense?

You have adopted as dogma the tenets of what one might call vulgar evolutionary biology. Given that dogma, anything one does today has to be based on what was rational behaviour circa the stone age. (though I am unclear why that period should be your year zero. Rather than, say, the bronze age or the middle ages).

When it is pointed out that much behaviour is today radically different from behaviour in the stone age you say, as you are doing here, that the behaviour is essentially the same. Thus, me going to work as a lawyer is apparently fundamentally the same thing as hunting mammoths.

Given that if you look hard enough, you can always find Similarities between anything, whatever I say about behaviour today, you will explain it as an adaptation of stone age behaviour on the basis of some connection between them.

Hence an undisprovable argument and hence another theological argument.

People read too little Karl Popper. They should read about his most important contribution (aside from falsifiability in science). That was the Tolerance Paradox. Liberals want to be tolerant even to the intolerant, who care not a jot about niceties such as truth and justice.

I'm a great believer in what John Stuart Mill said. If you let people put forward Shit arguments, their shittiness will be exposed. Suppress them, and they get the unwarranted veneer of martyr. "

You're so right. I love your posts.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm inclined to imagine that some of that intimidation is perceived...especially by those who believe in r*pe as a culture.

I bet you cross the street late at night if any man is present.

I don't believe that r is a culture. But I do believe that many men don't value or respect women. And by calling me a liar, telling me my experiences are only a perception, you've done nothing to make me think you're any different."

We know not of what we talk about, it's all our feeble imaginations don't you know

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"I'm inclined to imagine that some of that intimidation is perceived...especially by those who believe in r*pe as a culture.

I bet you cross the street late at night if any man is present.

I don't believe that r is a culture. But I do believe that many men don't value or respect women. And by calling me a liar, telling me my experiences are only a perception, you've done nothing to make me think you're any different."

Could you put that in more concrete terms? I mean what % of boys do you think aren't taught that hitting women is always wrong? Or what % don't leave school having been taught not to use violence as a first resort to settle disputes?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"I'm inclined to imagine that some of that intimidation is perceived...especially by those who believe in r*pe as a culture.

I bet you cross the street late at night if any man is present.

I don't believe that r is a culture. But I do believe that many men don't value or respect women. And by calling me a liar, telling me my experiences are only a perception, you've done nothing to make me think you're any different.

Could you put that in more concrete terms? I mean what % of boys do you think aren't taught that hitting women is always wrong? Or what % don't leave school having been taught not to use violence as a first resort to settle disputes? "

I thought you believed men will always settle disputes by violence?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

I dont know that we are even talking about the same thing anymore. You've never met or even heard of people being told to punch first ask questions later. Get the first punch in.

No

Learn violence is the only way from peers/parents/siblings.

No

Lads being jeered on to fight called a wimp if they don't.

Yes

That was my observation of toxic masculinity, anger before questioning. Nothing to do with being able to play rugby?

You said I must have had a charmed life. I'm saying that I've known a lot of very manly men and don't recognise the culture you're painting. I very much doubt you have first hand experience of what you're talking about.

We aren't talking about manly men though are we heavens. We are talking about toxic culture that can twist the viewpoints of the vulnerable.

And thanks no, as a man you must be right about my life experiences. Silly old me.

I'm genuinely baffled where you find evidence for the behaviours and culture you described? Since my experience is so wildly different, and i consider my upbringing pretty typical, I'm genuinely confused where the situation you described would be taking place. "

I am similairly baffled by you; almost gob smacked so I'll leave you to it.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"I'm inclined to imagine that some of that intimidation is perceived...especially by those who believe in r*pe as a culture.

I bet you cross the street late at night if any man is present.

I don't believe that r is a culture. But I do believe that many men don't value or respect women. And by calling me a liar, telling me my experiences are only a perception, you've done nothing to make me think you're any different.

Could you put that in more concrete terms? I mean what % of boys do you think aren't taught that hitting women is always wrong? Or what % don't leave school having been taught not to use violence as a first resort to settle disputes?

I thought you believed men will always settle disputes by violence? "

No, as ever you misquote me. I said it's always the last resort.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *y Favorite Pornstar OP   Couple
over a year ago

Basingstoke


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

I dont know that we are even talking about the same thing anymore. You've never met or even heard of people being told to punch first ask questions later. Get the first punch in.

No

Learn violence is the only way from peers/parents/siblings.

No

Lads being jeered on to fight called a wimp if they don't.

Yes

That was my observation of toxic masculinity, anger before questioning. Nothing to do with being able to play rugby?

You said I must have had a charmed life. I'm saying that I've known a lot of very manly men and don't recognise the culture you're painting. I very much doubt you have first hand experience of what you're talking about.

We aren't talking about manly men though are we heavens. We are talking about toxic culture that can twist the viewpoints of the vulnerable.

And thanks no, as a man you must be right about my life experiences. Silly old me.

I'm genuinely baffled where you find evidence for the behaviours and culture you described? Since my experience is so wildly different, and i consider my upbringing pretty typical, I'm genuinely confused where the situation you described would be taking place.

I am similairly baffled by you; almost gob smacked so I'll leave you to it. "

Well my views come from growing up as a boy, around other boys and some adult years as a man too. I confess I haven't studied it. Where do your views on what boys are taught come from?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ineMan
over a year ago

In cave behind a waterfall on a hill


"A quick google for toxic masculinity soundbites.

'Teaches young boys to be embarrassed about their emotions, to hide or avoid them, unless its anger"

"Young boys having the tenderness shamed out of them".

Well thanks but i can't see the link between that an incels going on rampages

Really. Being taught anger is the only way?

That's not a thing though. I've never met any male that was ever taught anger was the only way.

You must have led a charmed life then

Well I've played a rugby and done martial arts, pretty masculine activities and still never met a guy that was ever taught that. It sounds more like what paranoid women imagine men are taught, rather than anything from the real world.

I dont know that we are even talking about the same thing anymore. You've never met or even heard of people being told to punch first ask questions later. Get the first punch in.

No

Learn violence is the only way from peers/parents/siblings.

No

Lads being jeered on to fight called a wimp if they don't.

Yes

That was my observation of toxic masculinity, anger before questioning. Nothing to do with being able to play rugby?

You said I must have had a charmed life. I'm saying that I've known a lot of very manly men and don't recognise the culture you're painting. I very much doubt you have first hand experience of what you're talking about.

We aren't talking about manly men though are we heavens. We are talking about toxic culture that can twist the viewpoints of the vulnerable.

And thanks no, as a man you must be right about my life experiences. Silly old me.

I'm genuinely baffled where you find evidence for the behaviours and culture you described? Since my experience is so wildly different, and i consider my upbringing pretty typical, I'm genuinely confused where the situation you described would be taking place.

I am similairly baffled by you; almost gob smacked so I'll leave you to it.

Well my views come from growing up as a boy, around other boys and some adult years as a man too. I confess I haven't studied it. Where do your views on what boys are taught come from? "

And yet you have just spent an entire thread attempting to impose your dogma on others....

Less words more compassion maybe?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm inclined to imagine that some of that intimidation is perceived...especially by those who believe in r*pe as a culture.

I bet you cross the street late at night if any man is present.

I don't believe that r is a culture. But I do believe that many men don't value or respect women. And by calling me a liar, telling me my experiences are only a perception, you've done nothing to make me think you're any different.

We know not of what we talk about, it's all our feeble imaginations don't you know "

Can we get back on topic with less of the strawmanning. I purposely said SOME and NOT all.

It's easy to wrongly assumed that everyone is a threat and maybe it's a reasonable survival tactic...but it's not the truth and remember we got here from a discussion of the general nature and upbringing of men. Broken and I have both shown that men who use physical dominance over women are a derided minority and not a standard of masculinity.

I could add that you are guilty of telling us about our silly experiences of growing up as regular boys.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"I'm inclined to imagine that some of that intimidation is perceived...especially by those who believe in r*pe as a culture.

I bet you cross the street late at night if any man is present.

I don't believe that r is a culture. But I do believe that many men don't value or respect women. And by calling me a liar, telling me my experiences are only a perception, you've done nothing to make me think you're any different.

Could you put that in more concrete terms? I mean what % of boys do you think aren't taught that hitting women is always wrong? Or what % don't leave school having been taught not to use violence as a first resort to settle disputes?

I thought you believed men will always settle disputes by violence?

No, as ever you misquote me. I said it's always the last resort. "

You said, if I remember correctly. "men will ultimately always settle disputes by violence" which obviously empirically incorrect.

I have had plenty of disputes in my time and have never once settled one with violence. Most other men haven't either. The only people I have known who were prone to settle disputes with violence were my criminal clients who usually ended up in jail.

Hence not only is men settling disputes with violence rare, it's also socially disapproved of to the extent we put people in prison for it.

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