FabSwingers.com forum: Do you believe someone who identifies as female is a

By *lem-H-Fandango OP Man
over a year ago

salisbury

Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body.

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By *isaB45Woman
over a year ago

Fabville

Who am I to tell someone what to think about their gender identy?..

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

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By *ax1971Man
over a year ago

St helens

You are who you want to be..

Whatever feels natural to the person is what they should embrace...x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How do we treat someone who wants to be a woman? Is it just the personal pronoun we change or should we treat them differently?

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By *lem-H-Fandango OP Man
over a year ago

salisbury

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE."

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body. "

No, but I’d call them whatever they want.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body. "
No its all in the mind, look in the mirror

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Which public toilets would they use?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Which public toilets would they use?"
uni-sex, gents basically

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Which public toilets would they use?"

Mens

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body.

No, but I’d call them whatever they want."

This for me too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

I'm being serious, not flippant, serious here, repeat not flippant......So, even though I've been male all my life with no female tendencies whatsoever I can "over night" decide I want to be considered female and would have to be treated as such legally?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A person can identify with whatever they want to, just stop expecting everyone else to fit in with it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How do we treat someone who wants to be a woman? Is it just the personal pronoun we change or should we treat them differently?"

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By *ocbigMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

How does it change the opinions/argument if you substitute for example black for woman?

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

No, they are not.

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By *lem-H-Fandango OP Man
over a year ago

salisbury

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

No, they are not."

So where does the distinction change?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body. "

The phrase 'identifies as' does seem to come up a lot in these sort of conversations.

I would like to hear some peoples opinions or explanations of what,precisely,that means.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body. "

There is an OP, I can see you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How do we treat someone who wants to be a woman? Is it just the personal pronoun we change or should we treat them differently?"

Actually, thinking about, haven't women spent over a hundred years fighting for not to be treated differently?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body.

The phrase 'identifies as' does seem to come up a lot in these sort of conversations.

I would like to hear some peoples opinions or explanations of what,precisely,that means."
Well its easy, you

' identity as ' a naked woman in a hat

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Which public toilets would they use?

Mens"

But if they see themselves as a female surely they would use the females?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Which public toilets would they use?

Mens

But if they see themselves as a female surely they would use the females?"
only if they wanted to sit down

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body.

The phrase 'identifies as' does seem to come up a lot in these sort of conversations.

I would like to hear some peoples opinions or explanations of what,precisely,that means.Well its easy, you

' identity as ' a naked woman in a hat

Not right now I don't (in my nighty and hatless). Anyways,that doesn't really explain what 'identifying as' something really means.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body.

The phrase 'identifies as' does seem to come up a lot in these sort of conversations.

I would like to hear some peoples opinions or explanations of what,precisely,that means.Well its easy, you

' identity as ' a naked woman in a hat

Not right now I don't (in my nighty and hatless). Anyways,that doesn't really explain what 'identifying as' something really means."
it does, it's how you're perceived by others you identity as the woman in the hat , boy George identifies as the gay man in a hat and rue Paul identifies as the transvestite in a sparkly hat

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body.

The phrase 'identifies as' does seem to come up a lot in these sort of conversations.

I would like to hear some peoples opinions or explanations of what,precisely,that means.Well its easy, you

' identity as ' a naked woman in a hat

Not right now I don't (in my nighty and hatless). Anyways,that doesn't really explain what 'identifying as' something really means.it does, it's how you're perceived by others you identity as the woman in the hat , boy George identifies as the gay man in a hat and rue Paul identifies as the transvestite in a sparkly hat

Ah,so it's more to do with others perception of a person than their own self perception.

That makes it easier to answer because the question then becomes ''are the people I see as female,women?'' Answer,sometimes.

(Hats optional).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body.

The phrase 'identifies as' does seem to come up a lot in these sort of conversations.

I would like to hear some peoples opinions or explanations of what,precisely,that means.Well its easy, you

' identity as ' a naked woman in a hat

Ah,so it's more to do with others perception of a person than their own self perception.

That makes it easier to answer because the question then becomes ''are the people I see as female,women?'' Answer,sometimes.

(Hats optional)."
yes it has to be because theirs doubt in the Ops eyes as to their identity

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By *lem-H-Fandango OP Man
over a year ago

salisbury

Well, when would an employer for example have to treat a man as a woman when he decides he no longer is male, but identifies as female? At what point would he not get sacked for using the female toilet?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We could also draw a distinction between physical sex and gender expression.

For example,if a person is female or if they are male is (obviously) referring to their physical sex.

But,,,,if we are discussing whether someone is femININE or maSCULINE,that is more subjective,changeable and not necessarily to do with ones physical characteristics. I.E. having a female body does not mean that a person will always act,dress,think or feel in a way that is traditionally thought of as feminine (and vice versa for guys), although she might when she wants to.

It seems,then,that gender expression is more a part of someones personality than anything else.

The aforementioned big hairy assed guy with a beard and a penis is therefore,clearly not a woman but,may or may not be considered to be feminine (some ,all or none of the time, by themselves and by others.

I hope the succinct way I have explained this has finally cleared up the issue for all those who seem to be so concerned with it that they seem to go on about it so much. (Naming no names,of course).

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By *rkeb3Man
over a year ago

east Lancashire road

I do say I don't bleive but won't matter to them what I think

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By *lem-H-Fandango OP Man
over a year ago

salisbury

"I do say I don't bleive but won't matter to them what I think "

So you wouldn't suck a trans woman's cock? Even though it's a female cock?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Females don't have cocks

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We could also draw a distinction between physical sex and gender expression.

For example,if a person is female or if they are male is (obviously) referring to their physical sex.

It seems,then,that gender expression is more a part of someones personality than anything else.

I hope the succinct way I have explained this has finally cleared up the issue for all those who seem to be so concerned with it that they seem to go on about it so much. (Naming no names,of course)."

But who defines what is considered as feminine and as masculine ?

Is it society ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We could also draw a distinction between physical sex and gender expression.

For example,if a person is female or if they are male is (obviously) referring to their physical sex.

It seems,then,that gender expression is more a part of someones personality than anything else.

But the OP is asking how other people see that person, not how the person feels themself.

No matter the question- sex, gender, body size, attractiveness etc, other people will all see it differently.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well, when would an employer for example have to treat a man as a woman when he decides he no longer is male, but identifies as female? At what point would he not get sacked for using the female toilet?"

Despite what some may seem to believe,gender reassignment is NEVER as simple as saying 'I've changed now'.

In order to be taken seriously,it has to be backed up (name change,appearance changes etc).

There is no law dictating which loo any person uses but there are laws about behaviour likely to cause distress and offence.So a person who looks so obviously like a guy could possibly fall foul of the public order act if they just wanted to go in the ladies for a sneaky peek. As for being sacked,depending on what a person got up to in the loo,it could be considered Gross Misconduct but would probably be better dealt with by discussing the matter. It's far more likely that a person seriously feeling that they need to change gender, would have some sort of conversation beforehand and not just turn up to work one day and demand to use the ladies loo. (which is usually locked in places where I work,I have to ask for the key,,,,,discrimination? could be).

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By *lem-H-Fandango OP Man
over a year ago

salisbury

"Females don't have cocks

Lol of course they do! Trans females don't have to have it cut off! They can still fuck like men, they're just women with big hard cocks full of spunk!

and tits to if you're lucky!

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By *lem-H-Fandango OP Man
over a year ago

salisbury

Despite what some may seem to believe,gender reassignment is NEVER as simple as saying 'I've changed now'.

In order to be taken seriously,it has to be backed up (name change,appearance changes etc).

So if a guy was in prison for life, but then realised he was actually a she, how would he go about getting into the women's prison? He couldn't start wearing dresses could she?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Despite what some may seem to believe,gender reassignment is NEVER as simple as saying 'I've changed now'.

In order to be taken seriously,it has to be backed up (name change,appearance changes etc).

So if a guy was in prison for life, but then realised he was actually a she, how would he go about getting into the women's prison? He couldn't start wearing dresses could she?"

I guess they'd have to start by talking to the prison doctor. My only knowledge of prisons comes from watching Porridge and Cell block H. The clothing doesn't seem to be all that different.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We could also draw a distinction between physical sex and gender expression.

For example,if a person is female or if they are male is (obviously) referring to their physical sex.

It seems,then,that gender expression is more a part of someones personality than anything else.

I hope the succinct way I have explained this has finally cleared up the issue for all those who seem to be so concerned with it that they seem to go on about it so much. (Naming no names,of course).

But who defines what is considered as feminine and as masculine ?

Is it society ?

I suppose so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

It would depend on what you mean by treated. There are various laws dealing with how people interact but no law requiring anyone to use any particular pronouns, for example.

There was a law proposed in Canada that would compel everyone to use everyone elses preferred pronoun ( even though there seemed to be a lot of them,just made up recently).

Not sure whether this actually became law but,one of the leading opponents,Jordan Peterson,argued that to compel any use of language is as much a violation of free speech as is forbidding it. Personally,I can't help but agree with his point of view.

It's all a matter of treating people with respect and courtesy. Mr Peterson never said that he would not call someone whatever they wanted to be called,but that he refused to be ordered to do so.

So, it doesn't seem very likely that anyone could ever force someone else to 'identify' them a certain way but,instead of forcing,they can persuade them to in many ways,including just being and appearing to be the person that they wish to be identified as. First impressions count for a lot. having a big bushy beard and a gruff voice will often give the impression that the person is a man and it's going to be very hard to shake off that impression.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is this a trap?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Woman? No op, no drugs, but identifies as female even though born with a male body. "

I wasn’t going to get drawn in to another one of these but fuck it. To answer the specific question. No, a man does not become a woman just because he says so. He can call himself what he likes but the fact remains he is a man calling himself a woman.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 15/07/18 10:04:56]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Females don't have cocks

Meet me next Friday night.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is this a trap?"

There's no vagina.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In the immortal words of Ted “there are no such things as chicks with dicks, just guys with tits” hope that helps.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is everyone who has a cock,a man?

What? a REAL man?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is everyone who has a cock,a man?

What? a REAL man?"

As you supposed society defines it.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

There is no specific law that enforces segregation of toilets according to genitalia.

There is general legislation that comes into play in situations where an individual is considered to be acting unreasonably.

A bloke in fancy dress, for example, asserting a perceived right to piss in a ladies loo is going to find himself on the wrong side of reasonable behaviour.

In terms of legal recognition, every individual is assigned male or female at birth and this marker is applied to every dealing with officialdom thereafter.

If you are arrested, for example, you will be processed as a male if your official records state you are male.

To be recognised officially in your new gender requires a gender recognition certificate, or GRC.

There is a fee and the application needs to be accompanied by evidence from at least one medical professional.

A panel approves or rejects the application.

A GRC also entitles the individual to have their previous identity protected.

The UK Government currently is consulting on whether to relax these requirements and allow individuals who are serious about living in their acquired gender to "self-identify".

This debate has thrown up all sorts of "what if" scare stories.

The reality is that people who are serious about their gender identity already use the facilities reserved for that gender.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is everyone who has a cock,a man?

What? a REAL man?

As you supposed society defines it."

So,,,it is a matter of perception,then?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is everyone who has a cock,a man?

What? a REAL man?

As you supposed society defines it.

So,,,it is a matter of perception,then?"

If yes, in that case it is not too far fetched to wonder whether people who believed to have been born in the wrong body is a social construction or not?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

There is no specific law that enforces segregation of toilets according to genitalia.

There is general legislation that comes into play in situations where an individual is considered to be acting unreasonably.

A bloke in fancy dress, for example, asserting a perceived right to piss in a ladies loo is going to find himself on the wrong side of reasonable behaviour.

In terms of legal recognition, every individual is assigned male or female at birth and this marker is applied to every dealing with officialdom thereafter.

If you are arrested, for example, you will be processed as a male if your official records state you are male.

To be recognised officially in your new gender requires a gender recognition certificate, or GRC.

There is a fee and the application needs to be accompanied by evidence from at least one medical professional.

A panel approves or rejects the application.

A GRC also entitles the individual to have their previous identity protected.

The UK Government currently is consulting on whether to relax these requirements and allow individuals who are serious about living in their acquired gender to "self-identify".

This debate has thrown up all sorts of "what if" scare stories.

The reality is that people who are serious about their gender identity already use the facilities reserved for that gender.

But but but,,,what about all those cases of trans women attacking people in the loo???

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

It would depend on what you mean by treated. There are various laws dealing with how people interact but no law requiring anyone to use any particular pronouns, for example.

There was a law proposed in Canada that would compel everyone to use everyone elses preferred pronoun ( even though there seemed to be a lot of them,just made up recently).

It's all a matter of treating people with respect and courtesy. Mr Peterson never said that he would not call someone whatever they wanted to be called,but that he refused to be ordered to do so.

I'm with Jordan on this, he said the universities should sack all biologists if they follow bill C-16 as there's now clearly no need for them.

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/jordan-peterson-and-the-transgender-wars/

Anyway I feel there's a lot of messed up young lads on here that don't understand what a TS,TG or TV (or whatever) is and that in their minds they are still straight.

Walks like a duck though hmmmm

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By *witch4Fun24Couple
over a year ago

Leicester

Yes, we all have to start somewhere and the waiting lists for assessments and referrals to GICs are so long these days that there are likely to be several years of social transition before medical is even available even though at last check you only needed one year living as intended gender to be considered for referral.

Contrary to belief people can't just decide to change gender and get their hormones and surgery straight away unless they are very wealthy indeed and even then the waiting lists for most private surgeries is over a year too. It takes years on NHS.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is everyone who has a cock,a man?

What? a REAL man?

As you supposed society defines it.

So,,,it is a matter of perception,then?

If yes, in that case it is not too far fetched to wonder whether people who believed to have been born in the wrong body is a social construction or not? "

I guess it's possible that someone may have succumbed to societal or peer pressure,or even just what they have read in the news,and convinced themselves of this.

Possible,maybe?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Females don't have cocks

Meet me next Friday night."

Where you going?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is everyone who has a cock,a man?

What? a REAL man?

As you supposed society defines it.

So,,,it is a matter of perception,then?

If yes, in that case it is not too far fetched to wonder whether people who believed to have been born in the wrong body is a social construction or not?

I guess it's possible that someone may have succumbed to societal or peer pressure,or even just what they have read in the news,and convinced themselves of this.

Possible,maybe? "

If gender is a social construction, so is transgenderism.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

It would depend on what you mean by treated. There are various laws dealing with how people interact but no law requiring anyone to use any particular pronouns, for example.

There was a law proposed in Canada that would compel everyone to use everyone elses preferred pronoun ( even though there seemed to be a lot of them,just made up recently).

It's all a matter of treating people with respect and courtesy. Mr Peterson never said that he would not call someone whatever they wanted to be called,but that he refused to be ordered to do so.

I'm with Jordan on this, he said the universities should sack all biologists if they follow bill C-16 as there's now clearly no need for them.

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/jordan-peterson-and-the-transgender-wars/

Anyway I feel there's a lot of messed up young lads on here that don't understand what a TS,TG or TV (or whatever) is and that in their minds they are still straight.

Walks like a duck though hmmmm "

I think it's perfectly reasonable for any country to have a law that states that everyone should treat everyone else with respect,decency and courtesy.

However,I don't really see how that extends to being forced to use words that have only just been invented and have not yet been incorporated into everyday speech.that is a s far as I'd go with agreeing with Prof Peterson on this.

However,in his 12 Rules For Life he does also advocate standing up straight with your shoulders back and tidying your room (possibly meaning just 'get organised' ),,,,try it,it really does make you feel better.

He's sometimes quite sensible and often has some good things to say,,,often but not always.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is everyone who has a cock,a man?

What? a REAL man?

As you supposed society defines it.

So,,,it is a matter of perception,then?

If yes, in that case it is not too far fetched to wonder whether people who believed to have been born in the wrong body is a social construction or not?

I guess it's possible that someone may have succumbed to societal or peer pressure,or even just what they have read in the news,and convinced themselves of this.

Possible,maybe?

If gender is a social construction, so is transgenderism.

Quite possibly, I wouldn't know.

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By *witch4Fun24Couple
over a year ago

Leicester

"So if a guy was in prison for life, but then realised he was actually a she, how would he go about getting into the women's prison? He couldn't start wearing dresses could she?"

He would have to see prison Dr, get referred for psych and medical assessment for GD or GII and then if outside panel and panel of prison high ups agree it is a correct diagnosis then they would be able to start transitioning. Once social transitioned for "suitable period of time" which seems to be around a year atm then process for transferal to female prison or wing starts including another load of psych assessments. Then they get transferred to that and can start hormonal transition when funds and resources allow. As far as I am aware surgical transition would have to wait until after sentence is finished unless evidence that prolonging it would be detrimental to person's health as in suicide risk as classed as non essential surgery.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

It would depend on what you mean by treated. There are various laws dealing with how people interact but no law requiring anyone to use any particular pronouns, for example.

There was a law proposed in Canada that would compel everyone to use everyone elses preferred pronoun ( even though there seemed to be a lot of them,just made up recently).

It's all a matter of treating people with respect and courtesy. Mr Peterson never said that he would not call someone whatever they wanted to be called,but that he refused to be ordered to do so.

I'm with Jordan on this, he said the universities should sack all biologists if they follow bill C-16 as there's now clearly no need for them.

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/jordan-peterson-and-the-transgender-wars/

Anyway I feel there's a lot of messed up young lads on here that don't understand what a TS,TG or TV (or whatever) is and that in their minds they are still straight.

Walks like a duck though hmmmm

I think it's perfectly reasonable for any country to have a law that states that everyone should treat everyone else with respect,decency and courtesy.

He's sometimes quite sensible and often has some good things to say,,,often but not always.

"
awwww can I get praise from you one day x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yes, we all have to start somewhere and the waiting lists for assessments and referrals to GICs are so long these days that there are likely to be several years of social transition before medical is even available even though at last check you only needed one year living as intended gender to be considered for referral.

You don't have to be exactly fabulously wealthy,,,it's not THAT expensive but,you do have to go through the system. It's not just available on demand,on a whim,,,,anywhere in the world,with the possible exception of Iran.

I'd say that anyone who chooses to go to Iran for this kind of treatment has definitely shown a certain level of commitment to their cause and deserves to be taken seriously.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

It would depend on what you mean by treated. There are various laws dealing with how people interact but no law requiring anyone to use any particular pronouns, for example.

There was a law proposed in Canada that would compel everyone to use everyone elses preferred pronoun ( even though there seemed to be a lot of them,just made up recently).

It's all a matter of treating people with respect and courtesy. Mr Peterson never said that he would not call someone whatever they wanted to be called,but that he refused to be ordered to do so.

I'm with Jordan on this, he said the universities should sack all biologists if they follow bill C-16 as there's now clearly no need for them.

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/jordan-peterson-and-the-transgender-wars/

Anyway I feel there's a lot of messed up young lads on here that don't understand what a TS,TG or TV (or whatever) is and that in their minds they are still straight.

Walks like a duck though hmmmm

I think it's perfectly reasonable for any country to have a law that states that everyone should treat everyone else with respect,decency and courtesy.

He's sometimes quite sensible and often has some good things to say,,,often but not always.

awwww can I get praise from you one day x

Anything's possible,,,,however unlikely it may seem.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

It would depend on what you mean by treated. There are various laws dealing with how people interact but no law requiring anyone to use any particular pronouns, for example.

There was a law proposed in Canada that would compel everyone to use everyone elses preferred pronoun ( even though there seemed to be a lot of them,just made up recently).

It's all a matter of treating people with respect and courtesy. Mr Peterson never said that he would not call someone whatever they wanted to be called,but that he refused to be ordered to do so.

I'm with Jordan on this, he said the universities should sack all biologists if they follow bill C-16 as there's now clearly no need for them.

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/jordan-peterson-and-the-transgender-wars/

Anyway I feel there's a lot of messed up young lads on here that don't understand what a TS,TG or TV (or whatever) is and that in their minds they are still straight.

Walks like a duck though hmmmm

I think it's perfectly reasonable for any country to have a law that states that everyone should treat everyone else with respect,decency and courtesy.

He's sometimes quite sensible and often has some good things to say,,,often but not always.

awwww can I get praise from you one day x

Anything's possible,,,,however unlikely it may seem.

"
Ha

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"Y It's not just available on demand,on a whim,,,,anywhere in the world,with the possible exception of Iran."

In Iran, homosexuality is illegal.

The penalty is death.

Those found guilty - men - are given an alternative to death - gender reassignment surgery.

Your choice is execution or living the rest of your life as a woman.

It is said Iran has some of the best GRS surgeons as a result of all the practice.

As abuse of human rights go, it's up there.

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By *lbert_shlossedMan
over a year ago

Manchester

No I think there suffering from some form of mental disorder in the main and placating them with agreement isn't doing them any favours

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"Y It's not just available on demand,on a whim,,,,anywhere in the world,with the possible exception of Iran.

In Iran, homosexuality is illegal.

The penalty is death.

Those found guilty - men - are given an alternative to death - gender reassignment surgery.

Your choice is execution or living the rest of your life as a woman.

It is said Iran has some of the best GRS surgeons as a result of all the practice.

As abuse of human rights go, it's up there."

That's one of the points made by those against the ideology of gender identity. The Iranian view is that if you have a penis and fancy men you must "really" be a woman because you are exhibiting a trait usually associated with women. Hence the logical erasure of Gay people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Y It's not just available on demand,on a whim,,,,anywhere in the world,with the possible exception of Iran.

In Iran, homosexuality is illegal.

The penalty is death.

Those found guilty - men - are given an alternative to death - gender reassignment surgery.

Your choice is execution or living the rest of your life as a woman.

It is said Iran has some of the best GRS surgeons as a result of all the practice.

As abuse of human rights go, it's up there."

As I said,you've got to respect the commitment of anyone who would willingly choose to go there for that kind of treatment.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Y It's not just available on demand,on a whim,,,,anywhere in the world,with the possible exception of Iran.

In Iran, homosexuality is illegal.

The penalty is death.

Those found guilty - men - are given an alternative to death - gender reassignment surgery.

Your choice is execution or living the rest of your life as a woman.

It is said Iran has some of the best GRS surgeons as a result of all the practice.

As abuse of human rights go, it's up there."
yes but you pay attention to that rule or I would

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No I think there suffering from some form of mental disorder in the main and placating them with agreement isn't doing them any favours"

If you were qualified to diagnose who is or is not suffering from mental disorders,then I think it would be highly unprofessional and unethical for you to dispense such a blanket diagnosis on people you have not examined personally.

That's why I don't think you really are qualified to say that.

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By *lbert_shlossedMan
over a year ago

Manchester

"No I think there suffering from some form of mental disorder in the main and placating them with agreement isn't doing them any favours

That's why I don't think you really are qualified to say that."
.

Yea well I know a guy who hears voices in his head but I'm still qualified to say he's got a mental disorder.

I mean don't get me wrong I could be bang out of order and the fifth dimension is contacting him via a yet understood means! But I'm still willing to go for slightly batty

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

The existential question here is as to whether the fact that some people have a penis and testicles and other people have a vagina and ovaries is a significant difference that should be reflected in the way we organise society.

If that difference is significant, then we will always have different terms for people with those different sets of genitals. Traditionally those terms were "men" and. "women". If those terms become completely divorced from what set of genitals someone has, then all that will happen is that we will get new terms to signify the difference.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The existential question here is as to whether the fact that some people have a penis and testicles and other people have a vagina and ovaries is a significant difference that should be reflected in the way we organise society.

An interesting point. Would you care to suggest some of those new terms?

I'm not sure the differences are necessarily anything to do with organising society other than re. which changing rooms people should use at the sports hall. Even then it might seem a bit unfair (on everyone) to expect trans persons to use a changing room that does not seem to be right for their outward appearance. I'd feel slightly uneasy having a FtM trans man in the changing rooms with me,wouldn't you?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

It would depend on what you mean by treated. There are various laws dealing with how people interact but no law requiring anyone to use any particular pronouns, for example.

There was a law proposed in Canada that would compel everyone to use everyone elses preferred pronoun ( even though there seemed to be a lot of them,just made up recently).

It's all a matter of treating people with respect and courtesy. Mr Peterson never said that he would not call someone whatever they wanted to be called,but that he refused to be ordered to do so.

I'm with Jordan on this, he said the universities should sack all biologists if they follow bill C-16 as there's now clearly no need for them.

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/jordan-peterson-and-the-transgender-wars/

Anyway I feel there's a lot of messed up young lads on here that don't understand what a TS,TG or TV (or whatever) is and that in their minds they are still straight.

Walks like a duck though hmmmm

I think it's perfectly reasonable for any country to have a law that states that everyone should treat everyone else with respect,decency and courtesy.

He's sometimes quite sensible and often has some good things to say,,,often but not always.

Well there appears no need for biology anymore, sex seems no longer determined via chromosomes!!

And it is certainly a forced issue with regard to words used hence people actually getting fired!!

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/gender-identity-transgender-british-doctor/2018/07/09/id/870769/

I've bred plants before and I'll still determine the sex of the plant via science and looking for the Y chromosome to confirm it, there's all different morphs that will show the plant as female or inbetween but the presence of the Y confirms it as a male.

Science hey!!

It's almost like it's now a crime to disagree with certain people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

An interesting point. Would you care to suggest some of those new terms?

I suppose we could replace 'Ladies' and 'Gents' signs on the doors with 'Those who appear Female' and 'Those who appear male' signs. I imagine that will prevent anyone getting upset or offended about the issue ever again.

Unless of course,they don't look exactly how other people expect them to.

people who don't conform to rigid stereotypes are just so awkward,aren't they?

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"yes but you pay attention to that rule or I would

Or you seek asylum in a country where you will not be executed for being yourself.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

It would depend on what you mean by treated. There are various laws dealing with how people interact but no law requiring anyone to use any particular pronouns, for example.

There was a law proposed in Canada that would compel everyone to use everyone elses preferred pronoun ( even though there seemed to be a lot of them,just made up recently).

It's all a matter of treating people with respect and courtesy. Mr Peterson never said that he would not call someone whatever they wanted to be called,but that he refused to be ordered to do so.

I'm with Jordan on this, he said the universities should sack all biologists if they follow bill C-16 as there's now clearly no need for them.

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/jordan-peterson-and-the-transgender-wars/

Anyway I feel there's a lot of messed up young lads on here that don't understand what a TS,TG or TV (or whatever) is and that in their minds they are still straight.

Walks like a duck though hmmmm

I think it's perfectly reasonable for any country to have a law that states that everyone should treat everyone else with respect,decency and courtesy.

He's sometimes quite sensible and often has some good things to say,,,often but not always.

Well there appears no need for biology anymore, sex seems no longer determined via chromosomes!!

And it is certainly a forced issue with regard to words used hence people actually getting fired!!

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/gender-identity-transgender-british-doctor/2018/07/09/id/870769/

Science hey!!

It's almost like it's now a crime to disagree with certain people."

People don't tend to wear their chromosomes openly,though. Or to submit to having invasive tests done on them.

You can assume to know the chromosomes of other people if you like but,occasionally you're bound to be mistaken.

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By *alcon43Woman
over a year ago

Paisley

What about trans men? Would guys object if a woman who identifies as male used their toilets?

It’s about time we just had unisex toilets. Some places have cubicles with a wash hand basin in them so there’s no need to stand beside anyone at the sinks.

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By *witch4Fun24Couple
over a year ago

Leicester

I'd say that anyone who chooses to go to Iran for this kind of treatment has definitely shown a certain level of commitment to their cause and deserves to be taken seriously."

Ok, wealthier than some and especially me :D Let's take D.I. chest surgery atm; Initial appointment around £500, second appointment for presurgical assessment £300-£750, surgery £4500-£6500 depending on how big you are starting with and then potential revision costs £750-£1500 depending on which surgeon you have. Some will do any revisions for free as a dodgy result affects on their practice. Still a little more than the average person has laying around the house

that is not including travel and hotel stays. And many expect you to pay in cash on day of appointment if not before. No cards or credit cards :/

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

We think of practices in the UK and assume the rest of the world is like that. It is not.

In some countries, facilities used by the public are shared spaces - there is no segregation.

I've been in some foreign-themed licensed premises in the UK where males and females share the same toilet space. i.e. a bit of foreign culture is displacing our own.

Perhaps the closest our culture comes to it is unisex facilities adapted for use by the disabled.

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By *witch4Fun24Couple
over a year ago

Leicester

"What about trans men? Would guys object if a woman who identifies as male used their toilets?

It’s about time we just had unisex toilets. Some places have cubicles with a wash hand basin in them so there’s no need to stand beside anyone at the sinks.

wholeheartedly agree about unisex loos, that is why a lot of tans people use the disabled loos as less intolerance.

Most blokes just do a double take if they walk in and see someone they perceive as female using the loos, in a few cases I've had the guy walk slowly backwards to the door, check the picture on it and then creep back in. Always funny when that happens. Never experienced any hatred for it but I've been damn lucky that most guys are just in there to piss and go and don't fancy any drama. In my experience it is the women who are far more vocal about who should and shouldn't be in their loos and are far more likely to shout abuse at you under the cubicle door whilst you are trying to pee in peace on the rare occasions I have to go in women's because I don't class myself as particularly passing that day, the disabled is occupied and I am in serious risk of an accident.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Does anyone really care who is using the cubicle next to them while answering a call of nature? Personally I usually just wish they would go and use the hand dryer to spare me any embarrassment.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

An interesting point. Would you care to suggest some of those new terms?

It doesn't really matter what the terms are. We are able to reproduce because of those genital differences so they will always be socially significant and thus always have terms to indicate that difference.

I don't think there's any real issue with people who have fully transitioned or in the process of transitioning using toilets etc appropriate to their new gender. The problem is with people who have no intention of transitioning but insist they are as much a woman as someone with a vagina.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If he has xx chromosomes a vag a womb , the ability to give birth and feed with 'his' mammaries.......... yes

If he has all the male bits and considers himself a woman mentally and psychologically ......... yes.

If he's a big brute of a bearded bloke peering over my loo wall and asking to compare genitals..........NOPE.

But in the eyes of the law they're the same.

It would depend on what you mean by treated. There are various laws dealing with how people interact but no law requiring anyone to use any particular pronouns, for example.

There was a law proposed in Canada that would compel everyone to use everyone elses preferred pronoun ( even though there seemed to be a lot of them,just made up recently).

It's all a matter of treating people with respect and courtesy. Mr Peterson never said that he would not call someone whatever they wanted to be called,but that he refused to be ordered to do so.

I'm with Jordan on this, he said the universities should sack all biologists if they follow bill C-16 as there's now clearly no need for them.

https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/jordan-peterson-and-the-transgender-wars/

Anyway I feel there's a lot of messed up young lads on here that don't understand what a TS,TG or TV (or whatever) is and that in their minds they are still straight.

Walks like a duck though hmmmm

I think it's perfectly reasonable for any country to have a law that states that everyone should treat everyone else with respect,decency and courtesy.

He's sometimes quite sensible and often has some good things to say,,,often but not always.

Well there appears no need for biology anymore, sex seems no longer determined via chromosomes!!

And it is certainly a forced issue with regard to words used hence people actually getting fired!!

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/gender-identity-transgender-british-doctor/2018/07/09/id/870769/

Science hey!!

It's almost like it's now a crime to disagree with certain people.

People don't tend to wear their chromosomes openly,though. Or to submit to having invasive tests done on them.

You can assume to know the chromosomes of other people if you like but,occasionally you're bound to be mistaken."

Yes I've been to Thailand. Still a pretty boy is still just that a pretty boy.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"What about trans men? Would guys object if a woman who identifies as male used their toilets?

It’s about time we just had unisex toilets. Some places have cubicles with a wash hand basin in them so there’s no need to stand beside anyone at the sinks.

wholeheartedly agree about unisex loos, that is why a lot of tans people use the disabled loos as less intolerance.

The problem is that there are men who will enter female spaces in order to perv at and even assault women. There are virtually no women who do the same in male spaces.

Of course, the vast majority of men don't behave like that, but then the vast majority of men don't commit that r crime we can't mention yet women are still given advice on how to avoid it .

Hence women are acutely conscious as the possible nefarious motives of a man in a female space and hence their vocal objections.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

An interesting point. Would you care to suggest some of those new terms?

I wonder about those for whom it is all just a bit of a dressing up game,though.

If a guy has put in a bit of effort, how would anyone know what their intentions are re. taking their transition further,if at all?

To go back to the whole 'lavatory debate', such a person is possibly going to cause more controversy by using the gents loo than by using the ladies.

What about a 'female bodied from birth' woman who just happens to seem a bit more butch than some others,maybe has a liking for crew cut,tattoos and big gold rings,,,,should she be forced to use the gents just because she does not fit in with some stereotypical view?

It seems to me that some people worry too much about who else is using the loo. By all means there should be accepted codes of practice for what we all get up to while we are in there (no peeking,flush the loo,close the lid and wash your hands,for example)....but what does it really matter who is behind the next closed door?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Does anyone really care who is using the cubicle next to them while answering a call of nature? Personally I usually just wish they would go and use the hand dryer to spare me any embarrassment.

You’re speaking from a woman’s view point. The gents toilets may have one or two cubicles, the rest are urinals lined up along the wall with no privacy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What about trans men? Would guys object if a woman who identifies as male used their toilets?

It’s about time we just had unisex toilets. Some places have cubicles with a wash hand basin in them so there’s no need to stand beside anyone at the sinks.

wholeheartedly agree about unisex loos, that is why a lot of tans people use the disabled loos as less intolerance.

The problem is that there are men who will enter female spaces in order to perv at and even assault women. There are virtually no women who do the same in male spaces.

Of course, the vast majority of men don't behave like that, but then the vast majority of men don't commit that r crime we can't mention yet women are still given advice on how to avoid it .

Hence women are acutely conscious as the possible nefarious motives of a man in a female space and hence their vocal objections. "

I think that people who are going to commit crimes are going to do it anyway,regardless of what rules are put in place. Most people are probably doing whatever they are doing,quite innocently and with no ill intent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Does anyone really care who is using the cubicle next to them while answering a call of nature? Personally I usually just wish they would go and use the hand dryer to spare me any embarrassment.

I don't want to be sitting next to a man who is having a huge, smelly dump

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"What about trans men? Would guys object if a woman who identifies as male used their toilets?

It’s about time we just had unisex toilets. Some places have cubicles with a wash hand basin in them so there’s no need to stand beside anyone at the sinks.

wholeheartedly agree about unisex loos, that is why a lot of tans people use the disabled loos as less intolerance.

The problem is that there are men who will enter female spaces in order to perv at and even assault women. There are virtually no women who do the same in male spaces.

Of course, the vast majority of men don't behave like that, but then the vast majority of men don't commit that r crime we can't mention yet women are still given advice on how to avoid it .

Hence women are acutely conscious as the possible nefarious motives of a man in a female space and hence their vocal objections.

With all due respect, that's a bit of an illogical argument. Taken to its logical conclusion it would mean it would be pointless to have any laws at all, if people are going to commit crimes regardless of what rules are in place.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Does anyone really care who is using the cubicle next to them while answering a call of nature? Personally I usually just wish they would go and use the hand dryer to spare me any embarrassment.

You’re speaking from a woman’s view point. The gents toilets may have one or two cubicles, the rest are urinals lined up along the wall with no privacy."

Well,if we are re designing loos,maybe that is something that needs changing.

Wouldn't people be more reasonably worried about their young sons going into a room where men may have their cocks out,than worrying about a trans woman going into a cubicle and trying her damnedest not to let anyone see hers?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Does anyone really care who is using the cubicle next to them while answering a call of nature? Personally I usually just wish they would go and use the hand dryer to spare me any embarrassment.

I don't want to be sitting next to a man who is having a huge, smelly dump

not without a courtesy flush

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What about trans men? Would guys object if a woman who identifies as male used their toilets?

It’s about time we just had unisex toilets. Some places have cubicles with a wash hand basin in them so there’s no need to stand beside anyone at the sinks.

wholeheartedly agree about unisex loos, that is why a lot of tans people use the disabled loos as less intolerance.

The problem is that there are men who will enter female spaces in order to perv at and even assault women. There are virtually no women who do the same in male spaces.

Of course, the vast majority of men don't behave like that, but then the vast majority of men don't commit that r crime we can't mention yet women are still given advice on how to avoid it .

Hence women are acutely conscious as the possible nefarious motives of a man in a female space and hence their vocal objections.

I just meant that there certainly should be rules governing what we do,rather than where we are.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

An interesting point. Would you care to suggest some of those new terms?

I wonder about those for whom it is all just a bit of a dressing up game,though.

If a guy has put in a bit of effort, how would anyone know what their intentions are re. taking their transition further,if at all?

To go back to the whole 'lavatory debate', such a person is possibly going to cause more controversy by using the gents loo than by using the ladies.

It bothers the vast majority of women and I think that's something we have to take into account.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Does anyone really care who is using the cubicle next to them while answering a call of nature? Personally I usually just wish they would go and use the hand dryer to spare me any embarrassment.

I don't want to be sitting next to a man who is having a huge, smelly dump

Have you not learned to hold your breath for the duration? It's a useful skill.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"What about trans men? Would guys object if a woman who identifies as male used their toilets?

It’s about time we just had unisex toilets. Some places have cubicles with a wash hand basin in them so there’s no need to stand beside anyone at the sinks.

wholeheartedly agree about unisex loos, that is why a lot of tans people use the disabled loos as less intolerance.

The problem is that there are men who will enter female spaces in order to perv at and even assault women. There are virtually no women who do the same in male spaces.

Of course, the vast majority of men don't behave like that, but then the vast majority of men don't commit that r crime we can't mention yet women are still given advice on how to avoid it .

Hence women are acutely conscious as the possible nefarious motives of a man in a female space and hence their vocal objections.

I just meant that there certainly should be rules governing what we do,rather than where we are.

It would much easier if a man who does want to perv can wander into a ladies toilet and not be challenged because it's entirely possible he identifies as a woman.

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By *abs..Woman
over a year ago

"Does anyone really care who is using the cubicle next to them while answering a call of nature? Personally I usually just wish they would go and use the hand dryer to spare me any embarrassment.

I care. I care very much.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

An interesting point. Would you care to suggest some of those new terms?

I wonder about those for whom it is all just a bit of a dressing up game,though.

If a guy has put in a bit of effort, how would anyone know what their intentions are re. taking their transition further,if at all?

To go back to the whole 'lavatory debate', such a person is possibly going to cause more controversy by using the gents loo than by using the ladies.

It bothers the vast majority of women and I think that's something we have to take into account. "

Does it really? I quite often see a 'male cleaner in attendance' sign,often in Motorway Service Areas loos. I've never seen anyone take any notice whatsoever.Even if there is a guy in there.

I would presume because most people assume he is not up to anything naughty. It's more relevant what people do in the loo than which loo they are in,isn't it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Does anyone really care who is using the cubicle next to them while answering a call of nature? Personally I usually just wish they would go and use the hand dryer to spare me any embarrassment.

I care. I care very much. "

Why? And to answer the previous post,surely if a guy wants to get up to no good,he would want to draw as little attention to himself as possible.This is not going to be achieved by walking through town wearing a dress. He could,I supoose,go into the cubicle,get changed and then do his spying but then,,,what would be the point of the dress?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

An interesting point. Would you care to suggest some of those new terms?

I wonder about those for whom it is all just a bit of a dressing up game,though.

If a guy has put in a bit of effort, how would anyone know what their intentions are re. taking their transition further,if at all?

To go back to the whole 'lavatory debate', such a person is possibly going to cause more controversy by using the gents loo than by using the ladies.

It bothers the vast majority of women and I think that's something we have to take into account.

Does it really? I quite often see a 'male cleaner in attendance' sign,often in Motorway Service Areas loos. I've never seen anyone take any notice whatsoever.Even if there is a guy in there.

I would presume because most people assume he is not up to anything naughty. It's more relevant what people do in the loo than which loo they are in,isn't it?"

Every woman I have ever asked has said it would bother them a great deal if random men could wander into their toilets.

The cleaner situation is obviously different. You are warned, so if it does bother you you don't go in, and the fact that the guy is a cleaner and would be sacked if he misbehaved gives some protection.

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By *abs..Woman
over a year ago

"Does anyone really care who is using the cubicle next to them while answering a call of nature? Personally I usually just wish they would go and use the hand dryer to spare me any embarrassment.

I care. I care very much.

We’re being forced into a culture of accepting differences to appease a few. I don’t want to share toilet, changing room or any other area of that type with men.

What about young girls being alone in toilets with men? No I’m not comfortable with that. Not everyone in the world has good intentions.