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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism." I don't  | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism." Yes! | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. I don't "I mean TERFs and SWERFs. | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism." I agree, unfortunately sound bites now seem to highlight differences to make an impact. | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes!" Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. I don't
I mean TERFs and SWERFs."I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own I don’t know what a swerf is. Maybe im one of those too? | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far?" No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing." I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality. | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. I don't
I mean TERFs and SWERFs.
I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own
"The level of delusion necessary to make that statement just blows my mind. | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality." Oh I’m not against a little militant action. 
But for the things I believe in. And who knows if I’m right? What if my movement isn’t the right one to be militant and group thinky about?
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. I don't
I mean TERFs and SWERFs.
I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own
The level of delusion necessary to make that statement just blows my mind. "Oh there we go. No point in continuing with this | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. I don't
I mean TERFs and SWERFs.
I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own
The level of delusion necessary to make that statement just blows my mind.
Oh there we go. No point in continuing with this"Agree | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. I don't
I mean TERFs and SWERFs.
I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own
The level of delusion necessary to make that statement just blows my mind.
Oh there we go. No point in continuing with this
Agree"Oi. BrokenBobsleigh - chill! Can we talk and not be rude so I can hear others views? Tut tut. *kicks you in butt* | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality. Oh I’m not against a little militant action.
But for the things I believe in. And who knows if I’m right? What if my movement isn’t the right one to be militant and group thinky about?
"You seem to be suggesting that equality could be wrong. I’m sure that’s not the case. Anyway with broken brilliance entering the thread there is no point in Reading anything else. Oh for a block button that would stop people seeing what I wrote | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. I don't
I mean TERFs and SWERFs.
I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own
The level of delusion necessary to make that statement just blows my mind.
Oh there we go. No point in continuing with this
Agree
Oi. BrokenBobsleigh - chill!
Can we talk and not be rude so I can hear others views?
Tut tut. *kicks you in butt*"Don't worry, I'll be offline for a bit. I need to go to my weekly mens meeting where we brainstorm new ways to fuck women over, after all, we can't let them have anything of their own  | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality. Oh I’m not against a little militant action.
But for the things I believe in. And who knows if I’m right? What if my movement isn’t the right one to be militant and group thinky about?
You seem to be suggesting that equality could be wrong. I’m sure that’s not the case.
Anyway with broken brilliance entering the thread there is no point in Reading anything else. Oh for a block button that would stop people seeing what I wrote "No, I absolutely believe equality to be right. Apologies, didn’t mean to imply otherwise. | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. I don't
I mean TERFs and SWERFs.
I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own
The level of delusion necessary to make that statement just blows my mind.
Oh there we go. No point in continuing with this
Agree
Oi. BrokenBobsleigh - chill!
Can we talk and not be rude so I can hear others views?
Tut tut. *kicks you in butt*
Don't worry, I'll be offline for a bit. I need to go to my weekly mens meeting where we brainstorm new ways to fuck women over, after all, we can't let them have anything of their own "Who makes the brews? | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. I don't
I mean TERFs and SWERFs.
I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own
The level of delusion necessary to make that statement just blows my mind.
Oh there we go. No point in continuing with this
Agree
Oi. BrokenBobsleigh - chill!
Can we talk and not be rude so I can hear others views?
Tut tut. *kicks you in butt*
Don't worry, I'll be offline for a bit. I need to go to my weekly mens meeting where we brainstorm new ways to fuck women over, after all, we can't let them have anything of their own
Who makes the brews?"It’s nothing but a brouhaha. | |||
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"I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own I don’t know what a swerf is. Maybe im one of those too?" Can you explain to my woolly lefty brain how excluding trans women from the fight for or right to equality benefits the overall feminist cause? | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality." Unfortunately in this life i've met far more misogynists than i have misandrists. As long as this sorry state of affairs continues women should feel at liberty to do whatever they like to take back their power. As long a no one is physically hurt that's fine with me and men should just suck it up. Women have been oppressed for long enough and the men who like to moan about being emasculated are the ones who lack confidence in their masculinity in the first instance. There are many ways to define what it is to be a man, it's about time we realise that. | |||
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"I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own I don’t know what a swerf is. Maybe im one of those too? Can you explain to my woolly lefty brain how excluding trans women from the fight for or right to equality benefits the overall feminist cause?" They’re not women there for their fight is not the fight for equality for women | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality." What examples can you give where men are taking away from women now ? | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality. What examples can you give where men are taking away from women now ?" Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far?" I think that much like anything, small branches of groups break off who are more extreme and detrimental to the cause in general. | |||
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"Can you explain to my woolly lefty brain how excluding trans women from the fight for or right to equality benefits the overall feminist cause? They’re not women there for their fight is not the fight for equality for women" Well, I disagree fundamentally with your first statement, but it’s best not to turn this thread into another discussion about gender identity. However, separate to that, I have some questions. If feminism is about equality, does it reject equality for all? If men and women were equal, would transgender people not also be equal by definition? Does it not undermine the feminist argument to say that anyone should be excluded from the fight for or right to equality? I am a man. Am I allowed to fight for women’s right to be treated equally? | |||
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"Can you explain to my woolly lefty brain how excluding trans women from the fight for or right to equality benefits the overall feminist cause? They’re not women there for their fight is not the fight for equality for women Well, I disagree fundamentally with your first statement, but it’s best not to turn this thread into another discussion about gender identity. However, separate to that, I have some questions. If feminism is about equality, does it reject equality for all? If men and women were equal, would transgender people not also be equal by definition? Does it not undermine the feminist argument to say that anyone should be excluded from the fight for or right to equality? I am a man. Am I allowed to fight for women’s right to be treated equally?" You’re right of course. However there seems to be a lack of imagination from men inWhat equality is. I suspect they are fearful they will be treated as they have treated women . | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality. What examples can you give where men are taking away from women now ? Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ...," Oh, you’re still classing trans women as men, where should they go, stay with the men or have there own category in sports and separate toilets to men and women ? | |||
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"Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ...," Trans women in men’s toilets are highly likely to be sexually assaulted. They are highly unlikely to sexually assault anyone in a woman’s toilet. | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality. What examples can you give where men are taking away from women now ? Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Oh, you’re still classing trans women as men, where should they go, stay with the men or have there own category in sports and separate toilets to men and women ?" Honestly I have no idea. I wish I did as this is been made my problem along with all other women | |||
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"Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Trans women in men’s toilets are highly likely to be sexually assaulted. They are highly unlikely to sexually assault anyone in a woman’s toilet." I am deeply uncomfortable going into the toilet if I know a man is going to be there. Why does a man’s preference come above mine? | |||
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"What are you lot doing out of the kitchen? "Mending the car, doing the gardening, taking the boy to football. You know, all the things men think we aren't capable of. | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality. What examples can you give where men are taking away from women now ? Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Oh, you’re still classing trans women as men, where should they go, stay with the men or have there own category in sports and separate toilets to men and women ? Honestly I have no idea. I wish I did as this is been made my problem along with all other women" You’re not comfortable with them using the same public toilets as yourself ? | |||
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"Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Trans women in men’s toilets are highly likely to be sexually assaulted. They are highly unlikely to sexually assault anyone in a woman’s toilet." Would a woman in a gender neutral toilet be likely to be sexually assaulted by a man? | |||
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"Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Trans women in men’s toilets are highly likely to be sexually assaulted. They are highly unlikely to sexually assault anyone in a woman’s toilet. I am deeply uncomfortable going into the toilet if I know a man is going to be there. Why does a man’s preference come above mine?" You have an issue with using the same toilet as someone who identifies at transgender? | |||
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"Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Trans women in men’s toilets are highly likely to be sexually assaulted. They are highly unlikely to sexually assault anyone in a woman’s toilet. I am deeply uncomfortable going into the toilet if I know a man is going to be there. Why does a man’s preference come above mine?" You view trans women still as men, but they’re not comfortable going in the men’s toilets, so I guess we need to build trans toilets then! | |||
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"You’re right of course. However there seems to be a lack of imagination from men inWhat equality is. I suspect they are fearful they will be treated as they have treated women ." Is it helpful to fight against what you think others are thinking? Or does it not make more sense to just fight for what you believe in? Is it not more useful to he feminist cause to demonstrate intent through action? If actions demonstrate equality over exclusion, does that not help pour water on that argument? Is it not the case that saying, “These people are men therefore they are excluded from the right to equality,” is more likely to reinforce the belief some men might have that the intention is not equality but a reversal of power? Focusing on what you think your opponents might be thinking is a distraction. Both Brexit and the IndyRef are practical examples of that happening; it served the disrupters well to have people distracted by arguing against what they thought the other side might be thinking. In the end, you begin to think that this is what everyone opposed to you is thinking. See the unhelpful ‘all Brexiteers are racist’ for another practical example of how it does not help one’s cause. | |||
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"Would a woman in a gender neutral toilet be likely to be sexually assaulted by a man?" A lot of men behave very differently when they’re in an all male environment, such as a men’s toilet, than when they’re in a more neutral environment, like a unisex toilet. | |||
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"Am I missing something here? Why have feminism in the first place, why not just campaign for equality for all? Rather than place the emphasis on one thing? Maybe I’m just a simpleton but when I look at someone I don’t see gender/race/religion I see a human. Is positive discrimination a good thing? It’s still discrimination after all. " Because there are women all over the world who are disadvantaged because of their gender. | |||
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"...if your in a war and get your leg blown off who do you want to carry you to safety a 6"ft man who can throw you over his shoulder and run or a 5"3ft woman who struggles to carry herown backpack? Its not sexist its just biology." No, that is just sexist. There are men in the army who would struggle to carry you. Anyone who struggled to carry their own back pack would not be front line, regardless of gender. | |||
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"Today is National Women in Engineering day. I don’t know why. It was a perfectly easy industry to access back in 1990 and there were many women before me. There’s been a lot more join since. The fact is that the overwhelming vast majority of women are not attracted to this as a career / job. And that’s fine. What I don’t find fine, are people that promote days like this in a way that it’s an inaccessible career due to their gender. It’s not and that mentality is utter bollocks. " Clem will love this.  | |||
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"Would a woman in a gender neutral toilet be likely to be sexually assaulted by a man? A lot of men behave very differently when they’re in an all male environment, such as a men’s toilet, than when they’re in a more neutral environment, like a unisex toilet." In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? | |||
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"Am I missing something here? Why have feminism in the first place, why not just campaign for equality for all? Rather than place the emphasis on one thing? Maybe I’m just a simpleton but when I look at someone I don’t see gender/race/religion I see a human. Is positive discrimination a good thing? It’s still discrimination after all. Because there are women all over the world who are disadvantaged because of their gender. " In the world yes. In the UK not so much. I think like the equivalent race issue, some people like to play the underdog instead of the achiever. And to the poster above - positive discrimination is not a good thing. Both FT and myself work and have always worked in minority situations, me for gender and him for ethnicity. We would be bloody seething if we ever thought we’d be given jobs on this status. I want to be the best person for the job the end. | |||
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"Today is National Women in Engineering day. I don’t know why. It was a perfectly easy industry to access back in 1990 and there were many women before me. There’s been a lot more join since. The fact is that the overwhelming vast majority of women are not attracted to this as a career / job. And that’s fine. What I don’t find fine, are people that promote days like this in a way that it’s an inaccessible career due to their gender. It’s not and that mentality is utter bollocks. Clem will love this. "Then again back in 1990, two of the most powerful people in this country were women. The PM and the Queen. I saw no ceilings. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? " A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. | |||
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"Then again back in 1990, two of the most powerful people in this country were women. The PM and the Queen. I saw no ceilings. " Which one of the Queen and the PM isn’t a woman today? | |||
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"Then again back in 1990, two of the most powerful people in this country were women. The PM and the Queen. I saw no ceilings. Which one of the Queen and the PM isn’t a woman today?"  | |||
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"Then again back in 1990, two of the most powerful people in this country were women. The PM and the Queen. I saw no ceilings. Which one of the Queen and the PM isn’t a woman today?" Lol well that’s true and hopefully also an inspiration to young ladies that the world is their oyster. It was a personal statement based on my experience. | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality. What examples can you give where men are taking away from women now ? Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Oh, you’re still classing trans women as men, where should they go, stay with the men or have there own category in sports and separate toilets to men and women ? Honestly I have no idea. I wish I did as this is been made my problem along with all other women" A viewpoint of Neolithic proportions. I find it interesting that you should be in favour of feminism yet against fundamental choice. Transgender women are women, it goes beyond mere biology. Would you send a trans woman criminal to a male prison? | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group." I think if a man was acting out of line in a unisex toilet,(not that many would)there would be plenty of men to step in and call him out on it. | |||
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"You’re right of course. However there seems to be a lack of imagination from men inWhat equality is. I suspect they are fearful they will be treated as they have treated women . Is it helpful to fight against what you think others are thinking? Or does it not make more sense to just fight for what you believe in? Is it not more useful to he feminist cause to demonstrate intent through action? If actions demonstrate equality over exclusion, does that not help pour water on that argument? Is it not the case that saying, “These people are men therefore they are excluded from the right to equality,” is more likely to reinforce the belief some men might have that the intention is not equality but a reversal of power? Focusing on what you think your opponents might be thinking is a distraction. Both Brexit and the IndyRef are practical examples of that happening; it served the disrupters well to have people distracted by arguing against what they thought the other side might be thinking. In the end, you begin to think that this is what everyone opposed to you is thinking. See the unhelpful ‘all Brexiteers are racist’ for another practical example of how it does not help one’s cause." But that is very much the zeitgeist. Pretty much all political debate has been reduced to simple name-calling and grouping opponents. 'All Brexiters are racists and all remoaners are leftie traitors'. Both statements are bollocks, and serve simply to drown out any serious debate. Democracy is dead. | |||
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"You’re right of course. However there seems to be a lack of imagination from men inWhat equality is. I suspect they are fearful they will be treated as they have treated women . Is it helpful to fight against what you think others are thinking? Or does it not make more sense to just fight for what you believe in? Is it not more useful to he feminist cause to demonstrate intent through action? If actions demonstrate equality over exclusion, does that not help pour water on that argument? Is it not the case that saying, “These people are men therefore they are excluded from the right to equality,” is more likely to reinforce the belief some men might have that the intention is not equality but a reversal of power? Focusing on what you think your opponents might be thinking is a distraction. Both Brexit and the IndyRef are practical examples of that happening; it served the disrupters well to have people distracted by arguing against what they thought the other side might be thinking. In the end, you begin to think that this is what everyone opposed to you is thinking. See the unhelpful ‘all Brexiteers are racist’ for another practical example of how it does not help one’s cause." Thinking? No they are actually wanting to use women’s toilets into women’s sports. And being allowed to do so. Trans-women have also committed appalling acts of violence against women. | |||
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"Then again back in 1990, two of the most powerful people in this country were women. The PM and the Queen. I saw no ceilings. Which one of the Queen and the PM isn’t a woman today? "On second thoughts the PM’s on a shaky peg these days! Nothing to do with gender. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. I think if a man was acting out of line in a unisex toilet,(not that many would)there would be plenty of men to step in and call him out on it. " The opportunity for that to happen should never occur in the first place. Never mind that there is no guarantee anyone would step in never mind actually be there in the first place | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group." So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality. What examples can you give where men are taking away from women now ? Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Oh, you’re still classing trans women as men, where should they go, stay with the men or have there own category in sports and separate toilets to men and women ? Honestly I have no idea. I wish I did as this is been made my problem along with all other women A viewpoint of Neolithic proportions. I find it interesting that you should be in favour of feminism yet against fundamental choice. Transgender women are women, it goes beyond mere biology. Would you send a trans woman criminal to a male prison?" In that case women should have the choice not to share toilets with trans women if they aren’t comfortable! | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. " You really don’t like men do you ? | |||
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"I say stop activism in the name of feminism that strays beyond fair treatment of all, and increases unhelpful tribalism. Yes! Do you think that the feminist movement is going too far? No. That would suggest *anyone* identifying as a feminist is in agreement with certain more extreme factions. I think there are still issues to discuss and need vocalising and addressing. I see your point. However very little changes without militant action. The more I see men taking away from women and the more I see some women backing those men, the more it becomes apparent That women have a harder and harder fight for equality. What examples can you give where men are taking away from women now ? Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Oh, you’re still classing trans women as men, where should they go, stay with the men or have there own category in sports and separate toilets to men and women ? Honestly I have no idea. I wish I did as this is been made my problem along with all other women A viewpoint of Neolithic proportions. I find it interesting that you should be in favour of feminism yet against fundamental choice. Transgender women are women, it goes beyond mere biology. Would you send a trans woman criminal to a male prison? In that case women should have the choice not to share toilets with trans women if they aren’t comfortable! " The issue that needs to be addressed is why they're not comfortable. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. " I didn’t infer that. Just that there can be a difference. By the same token I’m sure an all female group might act differently to a mixed group. I suppose the extreme examples of each might be the stereotypical stag or hen night. | |||
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"This brings to mind the thread that brought up men holding a door open for a female some time ago. The furore was unreal. And I personally stand by what I said then. I'd hold the door open for anyone of any gender or age. Equality means just that. Everyone is treated the same. And if disdain is poured upon someone from one gender to another then those that are dishing it out should check themselves to ensure that they are not espousing just what they are decrying." Spot on. The debate should be about eradicating inequality, not just about giving somebody else the ball. | |||
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"What about trans-men? What toilet are they to use? " They’re more than welcome in the men’s, cause life’s to fucking short and I’m only in for a piss than I’m out again. | |||
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"What about trans-men? What toilet are they to use? " Same one as me, obviously. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ?" I don't like the way women are treated by them. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ? I don't like the way women are treated by them." Them as a whole unit, cause we operate as one ?! | |||
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"What about trans-men? What toilet are they to use? Same one as me, obviously." Agreed. | |||
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"Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Trans women in men’s toilets are highly likely to be sexually assaulted. They are highly unlikely to sexually assault anyone in a woman’s toilet. I am deeply uncomfortable going into the toilet if I know a man is going to be there. Why does a man’s preference come above mine?" They aren't men, and you've more than likely already shared a public toilet with a transwoman, multiple times and not known, but they've known and been terrified of being recognised and getting grief for just going to pee. Part of me wishes that transwomen would be banned from using women's toilets because then transmen will be banned from using men's toilets. If you felt uncomfortable about sharing a toilet with a transwomen, just think about coming out of the loo and seeing me washing my hands at the sink, or spotting that the feet in the next stall are pointing the wrong way, because I'm not going to make myself more uncomfortable (I'll already be super uncomfortable and scared from being in the wrong, to me, toilet) by sitting to pee which causes me pain... Or, masculine looking women being embarrassed out of a woman's toilet because they don't look feminine enough, or even beaten up, because there are loads of guys who threaten violence if they catch anyone they think has a penis using the same bathroom as their female relatives... Or male born men walking into women's toilets pretending to be transmen because they don't have to make any effort to pretend to be women to sneak in anymore (which they never have done anyway). I'm sorry you feel deeply uncomfortable about sharing a bathroom with a transwoman but you more than likely already have and been completely unaware. And I'm sorry that you don't want the support of people who have been treated as the opposite sex to what they are inside and so have experienced and are well aware of the inequality that women experience from both sides, and so could be of great help and support... but at the end of the day it's your choice. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. I didn’t infer that. Just that there can be a difference. By the same token I’m sure an all female group might act differently to a mixed group. I suppose the extreme examples of each might be the stereotypical stag or hen night." Actually Kentish, this comment by Elpis wasn’t addressed at you. And I actually think it’s somewhat interesting a point that she makes to query the potential concept that women are responsible for tempering the men’s behaviour. I’m not agreeing that this is what DO was meaning per se, but it is an interesting point. | |||
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"Entering women’s sports entering women’s toilets ..., Trans women in men’s toilets are highly likely to be sexually assaulted. They are highly unlikely to sexually assault anyone in a woman’s toilet. I am deeply uncomfortable going into the toilet if I know a man is going to be there. Why does a man’s preference come above mine? They aren't men, and you've more than likely already shared a public toilet with a transwoman, multiple times and not known, but they've known and been terrified of being recognised and getting grief for just going to pee. Part of me wishes that transwomen would be banned from using women's toilets because then transmen will be banned from using men's toilets. If you felt uncomfortable about sharing a toilet with a transwomen, just think about coming out of the loo and seeing me washing my hands at the sink, or spotting that the feet in the next stall are pointing the wrong way, because I'm not going to make myself more uncomfortable (I'll already be super uncomfortable and scared from being in the wrong, to me, toilet) by sitting to pee which causes me pain... Or, masculine looking women being embarrassed out of a woman's toilet because they don't look feminine enough, or even beaten up, because there are loads of guys who threaten violence if they catch anyone they think has a penis using the same bathroom as their female relatives... Or male born men walking into women's toilets pretending to be transmen because they don't have to make any effort to pretend to be women to sneak in anymore (which they never have done anyway). I'm sorry you feel deeply uncomfortable about sharing a bathroom with a transwoman but you more than likely already have and been completely unaware. And I'm sorry that you don't want the support of people who have been treated as the opposite sex to what they are inside and so have experienced and are well aware of the inequality that women experience from both sides, and so could be of great help and support... but at the end of the day it's your choice." If I've already shared a toilet and not known, then there's no need for a man to demand the right to use a woman's toilet when he's dressed as a woman. | |||
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"maybe I'm on the wrong lines here but take the home care industry. why is it women get the choice to refuse a male to care for them? yet unless their is a physical or sexual reason males don't get the choice not to have femail carers " Probably because conversely to my industry, the gender percentages are heavily biased to women. It wouldn’t be logistical. | |||
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"maybe I'm on the wrong lines here but take the home care industry. why is it women get the choice to refuse a male to care for them? yet unless their is a physical or sexual reason males don't get the choice not to have femail carers Probably because conversely to my industry, the gender percentages are heavily biased to women. It wouldn’t be logistical. " Really? You think that's the reason? | |||
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"If I've already shared a toilet and not known, then there's no need for a man to demand the right to use a woman's toilet when he's dressed as a woman." They don't, so it's all good | |||
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"If I've already shared a toilet and not known, then there's no need for a man to demand the right to use a woman's toilet when he's dressed as a woman. They don't, so it's all good "They're doing exactly that. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ? I don't like the way women are treated by them." I don’t allow people, men or women to treat me in any way, other than is satisfactory to how I feel I should be treated. That’s something I personally take control of. | |||
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"If I've already shared a toilet and not known, then there's no need for a man to demand the right to use a woman's toilet when he's dressed as a woman. They don't, so it's all good
They're doing exactly that."I like the way you keep everything light hearted, always such fun! | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. I didn’t infer that. Just that there can be a difference. By the same token I’m sure an all female group might act differently to a mixed group. I suppose the extreme examples of each might be the stereotypical stag or hen night. Actually Kentish, this comment by Elpis wasn’t addressed at you. And I actually think it’s somewhat interesting a point that she makes to query the potential concept that women are responsible for tempering the men’s behaviour. I’m not agreeing that this is what DO was meaning per se, but it is an interesting point." I didn’t take it to be addressed to me. I though the beauty of public forums was that anyone can pitch in?
My point was that I didn’t really think it was about women being responsible for anything.
By the same token, would you argue that men are responsible for tempering women’s behaviour, if an all female group (for example a girl’s night out) behaves differently than in a mixed group?
I don’t think changes in behaviour like his are exclusive to all male groups. Heck, most people might act differently around different groups of friends, irrespective of the male/female ratio. | |||
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"If I've already shared a toilet and not known, then there's no need for a man to demand the right to use a woman's toilet when he's dressed as a woman. They don't, so it's all good
They're doing exactly that."Oh, are transvestites demanding to use women's toilets? I didn't know that. Well transvestites are just men dressed up as women so I understand why they may not be wanted in women's toilets. | |||
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" Trans-women have also committed appalling acts of violence against women. " What a dreadful and sweeping statement of condemnation to make! Please can you supply actual evidence to support what you claim - especially relating to toilet use in the UK? As I have been attacked, beaten and half-strangled by someone whome I presume you would refer to as a "genetic woman" - then by your own argument, should I not fight to ban all women from women's toilets... just in case...??? There are a lot of ordinary, everyday women out there who scare the hell out of me - but that doesn't give me or anyone else the right to treat them as lesser people.. or to treat a different group of women in a similar way - just in case... The only things we should be fighting for are true equality in rights and freedom from discrimination..! Yes, I'm a feminist in that I want equality for women - but I also feel strongly that some Feminist activists are going way to far - and wrongly trying to claim that they are doing it in my name - they are not! | |||
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"I think if a man was acting out of line in a unisex toilet,(not that many would)there would be plenty of men to step in and call him out on it. " I don’t disagree. That’s exactly what I’m saying. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ? I don't like the way women are treated by them. I don’t allow people, men or women to treat me in any way, other than is satisfactory to how I feel I should be treated. That’s something I personally take control of. " You're deluding yourself. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. I didn’t infer that. Just that there can be a difference. By the same token I’m sure an all female group might act differently to a mixed group. I suppose the extreme examples of each might be the stereotypical stag or hen night. Actually Kentish, this comment by Elpis wasn’t addressed at you. And I actually think it’s somewhat interesting a point that she makes to query the potential concept that women are responsible for tempering the men’s behaviour. I’m not agreeing that this is what DO was meaning per se, but it is an interesting point. I didn’t take it to be addressed to me. I though the beauty of public forums was that anyone can pitch in?
My point was that I didn’t really think it was about women being responsible for anything.
By the same token, would you argue that men are responsible for tempering women’s behaviour, if an all female group (for example a girl’s night out) behaves differently than in a mixed group?
I don’t think changes in behaviour like his are exclusive to all male groups. Heck, most people might act differently around different groups of friends, irrespective of the male/female ratio."And I totally read it that you were saying that *you* had said it! My bad. I’ve re-read it the other way now. And I’m not disagreeing really, I just wanted to ponder it a little. It nudged me in thinking about emotional labour. But sorry, I did read your opening incorrectly as you owning the comment. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ? I don't like the way women are treated by them. I don’t allow people, men or women to treat me in any way, other than is satisfactory to how I feel I should be treated. That’s something I personally take control of. You're deluding yourself." Bit ironic. | |||
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" Trans-women have also committed appalling acts of violence against women. What a dreadful and sweeping statement of condemnation to make! Please can you supply actual evidence to support what you claim - especially relating to toilet use in the UK? As I have been attacked, beaten and half-strangled by someone whome I presume you would refer to as a "genetic woman" - then by your own argument, should I not fight to ban all women from women's toilets... just in case...??? There are a lot of ordinary, everyday women out there who scare the hell out of me - but that doesn't give me or anyone else the right to treat them as lesser people.. or to treat a different group of women in a similar way - just in case... The only things we should be fighting for are true equality in rights and freedom from discrimination..! Yes, I'm a feminist in that I want equality for women - but I also feel strongly that some Feminist activists are going way to far - and wrongly trying to claim that they are doing it in my name - they are not! " I'm not here to do your homework for you. If you're genuinely interested do some research. Skepticat on Twitter is a good place to start. | |||
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"If I've already shared a toilet and not known, then there's no need for a man to demand the right to use a woman's toilet when he's dressed as a woman. They don't, so it's all good
They're doing exactly that.
Oh, are transvestites demanding to use women's toilets? I didn't know that. Well transvestites are just men dressed up as women so I understand why they may not be wanted in women's toilets."You can paint stripes on a donkey. Doesn't make it a zebra | |||
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"Anyway. It's been lovely chatting. " Thank you for your input. I do appreciate hearing everyone in order to build my thinking. Don’t always agree, but thank you. | |||
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"What are you lot doing out of the kitchen?
Mending the car, doing the gardening, taking the boy to football. You know, all the things men think we aren't capable of."Glad to see you're earning your keep. I'm just off to do my ironing..... | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ? I don't like the way women are treated by them. I don’t allow people, men or women to treat me in any way, other than is satisfactory to how I feel I should be treated. That’s something I personally take control of. You're deluding yourself." Lol bless you. NO that is what I do. You’re clearly very different, so don’t try and tell me about my life. Put your big girl pants on and whatever it is you feel so oppressed and bitter about, YOU go change it.  | |||
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"If I've already shared a toilet and not known, then there's no need for a man to demand the right to use a woman's toilet when he's dressed as a woman. They don't, so it's all good
They're doing exactly that.
Oh, are transvestites demanding to use women's toilets? I didn't know that. Well transvestites are just men dressed up as women so I understand why they may not be wanted in women's toilets.
You can paint stripes on a donkey. Doesn't make it a zebra"Equality only matters when it effects you directly then, now we’re getting there. This is what gives actual feminists a bad name. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. I didn’t infer that. Just that there can be a difference. By the same token I’m sure an all female group might act differently to a mixed group. I suppose the extreme examples of each might be the stereotypical stag or hen night. Actually Kentish, this comment by Elpis wasn’t addressed at you. And I actually think it’s somewhat interesting a point that she makes to query the potential concept that women are responsible for tempering the men’s behaviour. I’m not agreeing that this is what DO was meaning per se, but it is an interesting point. I didn’t take it to be addressed to me. I though the beauty of public forums was that anyone can pitch in?
My point was that I didn’t really think it was about women being responsible for anything.
By the same token, would you argue that men are responsible for tempering women’s behaviour, if an all female group (for example a girl’s night out) behaves differently than in a mixed group?
I don’t think changes in behaviour like his are exclusive to all male groups. Heck, most people might act differently around different groups of friends, irrespective of the male/female ratio.
And I totally read it that you were saying that *you* had said it! My bad. I’ve re-read it the other way now.
And I’m not disagreeing really, I just wanted to ponder it a little. It nudged me in thinking about emotional labour. But sorry, I did read your opening incorrectly as you owning the comment. "That’s OK, it’s a fast moving discussion! I guess it would be interesting to consider the relative changes in behaviour. Even many women would probably note that women can be a lot rowdier than men on a night out. And whilst it’s obviously a trite cliche, it might also often be said that men are turning into abhorrent animals, but with women, they’re just having a laugh, or similar. | |||
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"If I've already shared a toilet and not known, then there's no need for a man to demand the right to use a woman's toilet when he's dressed as a woman. They don't, so it's all good
They're doing exactly that.
Oh, are transvestites demanding to use women's toilets? I didn't know that. Well transvestites are just men dressed up as women so I understand why they may not be wanted in women's toilets.
You can paint stripes on a donkey. Doesn't make it a zebra"Very true, at the end of the day transvestites are actors and still men in their minds. They pretend to be caricatures of women but they don't think, feel and act like women naturally. | |||
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"Anyway. It's been lovely chatting. Thank you for your input. I do appreciate hearing everyone in order to build my thinking. Don’t always agree, but thank you. " You didn’t say that when threw your toys out on my thread ! | |||
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" I'm not here to do your homework for you. If you're genuinely interested do some research. Skepticat on Twitter is a good place to start." You made the accusation... You provide the evidence...!!!  | |||
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"Anyway. It's been lovely chatting. Thank you for your input. I do appreciate hearing everyone in order to build my thinking. Don’t always agree, but thank you. You didn’t say that when threw your toys out on my thread ! "I have never thrown my “toys out” on your thread. I asserted my opinion. And only commented again as someone queried me. And surely it would make better correlation here for you to have thanked me for my opinion on your thread? On yours I ended with each to their own, so only shared my view. I’m sorry if it has been upsetting you all this time. | |||
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"So Shag pulled the pin on that grenade and still hasn't been back yet "Patience is the key  | |||
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"So Shag pulled the pin on that grenade and still hasn't been back yet
Patience is the key " | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ? I don't like the way women are treated by them. I don’t allow people, men or women to treat me in any way, other than is satisfactory to how I feel I should be treated. That’s something I personally take control of. You're deluding yourself. Lol bless you. NO that is what I do. You’re clearly very different, so don’t try and tell me about my life. Put your big girl pants on and whatever it is you feel so oppressed and bitter about, YOU go change it. "What do you think I'm doing? I'm not keeping quiet about the inequality of men wanting access to women's spaces. Unlike you. Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez. And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully. Margaret atwood had it right. But I'm no longer afraid. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ? I don't like the way women are treated by them. I don’t allow people, men or women to treat me in any way, other than is satisfactory to how I feel I should be treated. That’s something I personally take control of. You're deluding yourself. Lol bless you. NO that is what I do. You’re clearly very different, so don’t try and tell me about my life. Put your big girl pants on and whatever it is you feel so oppressed and bitter about, YOU go change it.
What do you think I'm doing? I'm not keeping quiet about the inequality of men wanting access to women's spaces. Unlike you.
Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez.
And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully.
Margaret atwood had it right. But I'm no longer afraid."You come across as being pitiful and downtrodden. I’ve commented in thread about how it’s entirely possible to be happy and successful as a woman in a majority male environment and being berated and accused of lying by you, a woman he openly stated you dislike how men treat you. Well I don’t have such problems, because i take control of my life, instead of being weak and blaming others. That’s a cop out and what a miserable life that must be. Don’t start slandering other people because YOU aren’t happy with YOUR life. What kind of woman finds such negativity in another woman’s success? A very bitter one. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ? I don't like the way women are treated by them. I don’t allow people, men or women to treat me in any way, other than is satisfactory to how I feel I should be treated. That’s something I personally take control of. You're deluding yourself. Lol bless you. NO that is what I do. You’re clearly very different, so don’t try and tell me about my life. Put your big girl pants on and whatever it is you feel so oppressed and bitter about, YOU go change it.
What do you think I'm doing? I'm not keeping quiet about the inequality of men wanting access to women's spaces. Unlike you.
Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez.
And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully.
Margaret atwood had it right. But I'm no longer afraid."I called you out for being a misandrist and you've continued to go on and make my point for me. Thanks for saving me the effort. | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ? I don't like the way women are treated by them. I don’t allow people, men or women to treat me in any way, other than is satisfactory to how I feel I should be treated. That’s something I personally take control of. You're deluding yourself. Lol bless you. NO that is what I do. You’re clearly very different, so don’t try and tell me about my life. Put your big girl pants on and whatever it is you feel so oppressed and bitter about, YOU go change it.
What do you think I'm doing? I'm not keeping quiet about the inequality of men wanting access to women's spaces. Unlike you.
Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez.
And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully.
Margaret atwood had it right. But I'm no longer afraid.
You come across as being pitiful and downtrodden. I’ve commented in thread about how it’s entirely possible to be happy and successful as a woman in a majority male environment and being berated and accused of lying by you, a woman he openly stated you dislike how men treat you.
Well I don’t have such problems, because i take control of my life, instead of being weak and blaming others. That’s a cop out and what a miserable life that must be.
Don’t start slandering other people because YOU aren’t happy with YOUR life.
What kind of woman finds such negativity in another woman’s success? A very bitter one. "There aren't enough thumbs for how much i like this | |||
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"In what way do they behave different in a toilet ? A lot of men behave in a more masculine, bolshy manner when they are in an all-male or male-dominated environment. The locker-room mentality. I disagree with the notion that it turns men into sexists, but a lot of men seem a lot more comfortable expressing themselves that way when surrounded by other men. I recently went on an all-male night out for the first time in years; I’m more used to and comfortable with mixed groups. The atmosphere, even when nobody has troublesome views, is quite different to when women are part of the group. So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. You really don’t like men do you ? I don't like the way women are treated by them. I don’t allow people, men or women to treat me in any way, other than is satisfactory to how I feel I should be treated. That’s something I personally take control of. You're deluding yourself. Lol bless you. NO that is what I do. You’re clearly very different, so don’t try and tell me about my life. Put your big girl pants on and whatever it is you feel so oppressed and bitter about, YOU go change it.
What do you think I'm doing? I'm not keeping quiet about the inequality of men wanting access to women's spaces. Unlike you.
Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez.
And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully.
Margaret atwood had it right. But I'm no longer afraid.
You come across as being pitiful and downtrodden. I’ve commented in thread about how it’s entirely possible to be happy and successful as a woman in a majority male environment and being berated and accused of lying by you, a woman he openly stated you dislike how men treat you.
Well I don’t have such problems, because i take control of my life, instead of being weak and blaming others. That’s a cop out and what a miserable life that must be.
Don’t start slandering other people because YOU aren’t happy with YOUR life.
What kind of woman finds such negativity in another woman’s success? A very bitter one. "You're doing a huge amount of twisting what I've said. | |||
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" Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez. And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully. " You may be right. It wasn’t my intent. I simply wanted to use whatever strategy I could to have the opportunity to hear your thoughts. | |||
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"Jesus Christ, I don't know why im still shocked by transphobia on this site. Some of you really need to give your head a wobble, either that or fuck off to somewhere in Eastern Europe or the middle east where your backwards views are more acceptable " I don't care if men want to be female. I do care when they hurt women by doing so. | |||
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"Am I missing something here? Why have feminism in the first place, why not just campaign for equality for all? Rather than place the emphasis on one thing? Maybe I’m just a simpleton but when I look at someone I don’t see gender/race/religion I see a human. Is positive discrimination a good thing? It’s still discrimination after all. Because there are women all over the world who are disadvantaged because of their gender. In the world yes. In the UK not so much. I think like the equivalent race issue, some people like to play the underdog instead of the achiever. And to the poster above - positive discrimination is not a good thing. Both FT and myself work and have always worked in minority situations, me for gender and him for ethnicity. We would be bloody seething if we ever thought we’d be given jobs on this status. I want to be the best person for the job the end. " I meant it in the world as a whole | |||
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"I dont understand what is and isnt sexist so im at a disadvantage" Stay out of this mate, this is big boy shit! | |||
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"Anyway. It's been lovely chatting. Thank you for your input. I do appreciate hearing everyone in order to build my thinking. Don’t always agree, but thank you. You didn’t say that when threw your toys out on my thread !
I have never thrown my “toys out” on your thread. I asserted my opinion. And only commented again as someone queried me. And surely it would make better correlation here for you to have thanked me for my opinion on your thread? On yours I ended with each to their own, so only shared my view.
I’m sorry if it has been upsetting you all this time. "To easy, fished in! | |||
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"Would a woman in a gender neutral toilet be likely to be sexually assaulted by a man? A lot of men behave very differently when they’re in an all male environment, such as a men’s toilet, than when they’re in a more neutral environment, like a unisex toilet." I've always wondered what goes on in the mens. | |||
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"Anyway. It's been lovely chatting. Thank you for your input. I do appreciate hearing everyone in order to build my thinking. Don’t always agree, but thank you. You didn’t say that when threw your toys out on my thread !
I have never thrown my “toys out” on your thread. I asserted my opinion. And only commented again as someone queried me. And surely it would make better correlation here for you to have thanked me for my opinion on your thread? On yours I ended with each to their own, so only shared my view.
I’m sorry if it has been upsetting you all this time.
To easy, fished in! "You know I like you, but I also like my intentions and comments in the t’internet to be clearly understood too. As far as humanly possible when I’m an out loud thinker-poster. | |||
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"Jesus Christ, I don't know why im still shocked by transphobia on this site. Some of you really need to give your head a wobble, either that or fuck off to somewhere in Eastern Europe or the middle east where your backwards views are more acceptable I don't care if men want to be female. I do care when they hurt women by doing so. " And how, how are they hurting women? There has been literally zero cases of trans people sexually assaulting anyone in a women's bathroom as your 'fear' says. All they want is exactly what natural born women want. If anything their lives are much more difficult than yours and have to live with a fear of physical and/or sexual assault or mockery every day of their lives | |||
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"I have no problem with being a terf as long as men continue to not allow women to have anything Of their own I don’t know what a swerf is. Maybe im one of those too? Can you explain to my woolly lefty brain how excluding trans women from the fight for or right to equality benefits the overall feminist cause? They’re not women there for their fight is not the fight for equality for women" I almost posted an extract from a Caitlin Moran article earlier, but think I will now. It’s slightly tangental, but think the principle is the same. Namely that you don’t lhave to have had the same experience as another, in order to appreciate their cause. The example is champagne socialists - a rebuke to the idea that the likes of Bono or Billy Bragg cannot possibly give a crap about those less fortunate than himself. The idea is the same here - I don’t think you have to be a woman to appreciate, or believe, that women should be treated equally. Anyway, this is what Caitlin had to say...: “You know how this goes. Bono, or Russell Brand, or Emma Thompson, or Charlotte Church, speak out in defence of welfare, or the working poor, and are immediately derided as “champagne socialists” by the professionally snide. The denouncing of champagne socialists always follows a strict format – mentioning the price of the house the champagne socialist lives in, their income/net worth, whether or not they went to public school, if their children do, and accompanying it with a picture of the champagne socialist either dressed up to the nines on a red carpet (how can they attend a movie premiere when the poor cannot attend a movie premiere!) or looking angry and shouting at a demonstration. (This person is crazed with socialism! Look at them snarl! Socialism is the ultimate Bitchy Resting Face! You will need Botox now, for sure!) The demented logic seems to be as follows: that you cannot stand up for the poor unless you are poor yourself. That if you have managed to accrue any wealth and security, unless you have subsequently given away every penny of it to charities for the poor, you are a hypocrite to speak about the poor. Only the poor can speak about, and for, the poor. So, if you are a real socialist, you must yourself stay poor for ever. Of course, there are several, very obvious, logical flaws in this argument. The first is a fundamental misunderstanding of socialism. There are many misunderstandings about what a socialist is: primarily that it’s someone who wears a donkey jacket and lives by a brazier, possibly in 1979, and listens only to Billy Bragg. Well, I know loads of socialists like this, and they’re ace. They get shit done. But that’s not socialism. That’s people. People who like old coats and Billy Bragg. Socialism is just a single, simple sentence: the belief that the necessities for the functioning of a society should be provided without profit. So that’s health, education, welfare, transport, the emergency services, the prison service and the justice system, paid for by taxation, and available to everyone, regardless of wealth. No paying Serco millions for running overcrowded jails. No G4S – the guys who fucked up the Olympics – still being paid by the government, despite being investigated by the serious fraud office for massively overcharging. There’s nothing in socialism that prevents Charlotte Church from living in a nice house, walking a red carpet and, after paying her taxes, earning millions a year. If she were a champagne anarchic communist, who believed that all property is theft, and that money should be abolished, then she would be a hypocrite. Champagne socialists, on the other hand, are people who could personally pay for an open return standard ticket to Manchester that costs £329 since privatisation, but recognise that other people can’t, and are suggesting that, maybe, society would function better if rail travel were cheaper, so everyone could use it. What people who denounce champagne socialists are doing is, essentially, trying to shame people who have empathy. Now, that’s a bad day down the opinion mines in anyone’s book.“ | |||
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"Anyway. It's been lovely chatting. " I’ve been out done the garden. You’re still here! | |||
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" Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez. And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully. You may be right. It wasn’t my intent. I simply wanted to use whatever strategy I could to have the opportunity to hear your thoughts. " You see? Women have to find a strategy to get men to shut up and allow women to speak. Women are not automatically given the right by men, and some women, to be respected without abuse. We have to cajole and pacify because we've been frightened of the repercussions if we don't, if we treaten add they treat us. I've been called a misandrist, bitter, must have an unhappy life, all because I see women's lives and rights being compromised by men. As usual. So be it. | |||
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"Anyway. It's been lovely chatting. Thank you for your input. I do appreciate hearing everyone in order to build my thinking. Don’t always agree, but thank you. You didn’t say that when threw your toys out on my thread !
I have never thrown my “toys out” on your thread. I asserted my opinion. And only commented again as someone queried me. And surely it would make better correlation here for you to have thanked me for my opinion on your thread? On yours I ended with each to their own, so only shared my view.
I’m sorry if it has been upsetting you all this time.
To easy, fished in!
You know I like you, but I also like my intentions and comments in the t’internet to be clearly understood too. As far as humanly possible when I’m an out loud thinker-poster.
"Fair enough, I will try to reign in my inner knobhead. | |||
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"Jesus Christ, I don't know why im still shocked by transphobia on this site. Some of you really need to give your head a wobble, either that or fuck off to somewhere in Eastern Europe or the middle east where your backwards views are more acceptable I don't care if men want to be female. I do care when they hurt women by doing so. And how, how are they hurting women? There has been literally zero cases of trans people sexually assaulting anyone in a women's bathroom as your 'fear' says. All they want is exactly what natural born women want. If anything their lives are much more difficult than yours and have to live with a fear of physical and/or sexual assault or mockery every day of their lives" Check out skepticat on Twitter. That's a good start. But that's only one part of men compromising women. Again. Look at women's refuges and sports as two examples. | |||
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"The crux of the argument here is the failure to accept trans women as actual women. Transgender is a reality and i find it difficult to believe there are still people around with such outmoded, bigotted views." Why is it so important that transwomen are considered women? Why is it so bad to be considered trans? That's the question. | |||
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" Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez. And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully. You may be right. It wasn’t my intent. I simply wanted to use whatever strategy I could to have the opportunity to hear your thoughts. You see? Women have to find a strategy to get men to shut up and allow women to speak. Women are not automatically given the right by men, and some women, to be respected without abuse. We have to cajole and pacify because we've been frightened of the repercussions if we don't, if we treaten add they treat us. I've been called a misandrist, bitter, must have an unhappy life, all because I see women's lives and rights being compromised by men. As usual. So be it." I don’t entirely disagree. | |||
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"Jesus Christ, I don't know why im still shocked by transphobia on this site. Some of you really need to give your head a wobble, either that or fuck off to somewhere in Eastern Europe or the middle east where your backwards views are more acceptable I don't care if men want to be female. I do care when they hurt women by doing so. And how, how are they hurting women? There has been literally zero cases of trans people sexually assaulting anyone in a women's bathroom as your 'fear' says. All they want is exactly what natural born women want. If anything their lives are much more difficult than yours and have to live with a fear of physical and/or sexual assault or mockery every day of their lives Check out skepticat on Twitter. That's a good start. But that's only one part of men compromising women. Again. Look at women's refuges and sports as two examples." Do you only have empathy for women ? | |||
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"Jesus Christ, I don't know why im still shocked by transphobia on this site. Some of you really need to give your head a wobble, either that or fuck off to somewhere in Eastern Europe or the middle east where your backwards views are more acceptable I don't care if men want to be female. I do care when they hurt women by doing so. And how, how are they hurting women? There has been literally zero cases of trans people sexually assaulting anyone in a women's bathroom as your 'fear' says. All they want is exactly what natural born women want. If anything their lives are much more difficult than yours and have to live with a fear of physical and/or sexual assault or mockery every day of their lives Check out skepticat on Twitter. That's a good start. But that's only one part of men compromising women. Again. Look at women's refuges and sports as two examples." Because one person on Twitter and never fully researched articles on trans people in sport and definately facts and the way to base a logical arguement. If you ever read into the articles on trans people in sport it's usually from American high school sports like the story that went famous a few months back about the ftm that was wrestling women and beating them every time. This story was reported wrong over and over and never mentioned it was from and not mtf, people kept taking it as a man who wanted to be a woman and they were forced to fight him because of that. The truth was that it was a ftm that wanted nothing more than to wrestle in the men's competitions but the state and school rules would not allow him to do so because he was born a female so he had no other choice. Frankly you can't argue with bigots and narrow mindedness, you only see what you want to see and not the reality behind it. It just amazes me that someone that must have faced some prejudices in their life would do the exact same to a minority that's trying to be on their side | |||
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"Jesus Christ, I don't know why im still shocked by transphobia on this site. Some of you really need to give your head a wobble, either that or fuck off to somewhere in Eastern Europe or the middle east where your backwards views are more acceptable I don't care if men want to be female. I do care when they hurt women by doing so. And how, how are they hurting women? There has been literally zero cases of trans people sexually assaulting anyone in a women's bathroom as your 'fear' says. All they want is exactly what natural born women want. If anything their lives are much more difficult than yours and have to live with a fear of physical and/or sexual assault or mockery every day of their lives Check out skepticat on Twitter. That's a good start. But that's only one part of men compromising women. Again. Look at women's refuges and sports as two examples. Because one person on Twitter and never fully researched articles on trans people in sport and definately facts and the way to base a logical arguement. If you ever read into the articles on trans people in sport it's usually from American high school sports like the story that went famous a few months back about the ftm that was wrestling women and beating them every time. This story was reported wrong over and over and never mentioned it was from and not mtf, people kept taking it as a man who wanted to be a woman and they were forced to fight him because of that. The truth was that it was a ftm that wanted nothing more than to wrestle in the men's competitions but the state and school rules would not allow him to do so because he was born a female so he had no other choice. Frankly you can't argue with bigots and narrow mindedness, you only see what you want to see and not the reality behind it. It just amazes me that someone that must have faced some prejudices in their life would do the exact same to a minority that's trying to be on their side" I think skepticat had some pretty real experiences of violence by a transwoman. Ok. So how are you trying to be on women's side? | |||
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"Jesus Christ, I don't know why im still shocked by transphobia on this site. Some of you really need to give your head a wobble, either that or fuck off to somewhere in Eastern Europe or the middle east where your backwards views are more acceptable I don't care if men want to be female. I do care when they hurt women by doing so. And how, how are they hurting women? There has been literally zero cases of trans people sexually assaulting anyone in a women's bathroom as your 'fear' says. All they want is exactly what natural born women want. If anything their lives are much more difficult than yours and have to live with a fear of physical and/or sexual assault or mockery every day of their lives Check out skepticat on Twitter. That's a good start. But that's only one part of men compromising women. Again. Look at women's refuges and sports as two examples. Because one person on Twitter and never fully researched articles on trans people in sport and definately facts and the way to base a logical arguement. If you ever read into the articles on trans people in sport it's usually from American high school sports like the story that went famous a few months back about the ftm that was wrestling women and beating them every time. This story was reported wrong over and over and never mentioned it was from and not mtf, people kept taking it as a man who wanted to be a woman and they were forced to fight him because of that. The truth was that it was a ftm that wanted nothing more than to wrestle in the men's competitions but the state and school rules would not allow him to do so because he was born a female so he had no other choice. Frankly you can't argue with bigots and narrow mindedness, you only see what you want to see and not the reality behind it. It just amazes me that someone that must have faced some prejudices in their life would do the exact same to a minority that's trying to be on their side I think skepticat had some pretty real experiences of violence by a transwoman. Ok. So how are you trying to be on women's side?" Why does there have to be sides Why cant we all just shag like rabbits and be happy Bloody sides it and footie | |||
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"The crux of the argument here is the failure to accept trans women as actual women. Transgender is a reality and i find it difficult to believe there are still people around with such outmoded, bigotted views. Why is it so important that transwomen are considered women? Why is it so bad to be considered trans? That's the question." Or, why is it so important to exclude trans women from any effort to promote equality through the feminism? I don’t see it as being about the identity of any individual or group, but about equality for all, regardless of how they identify themselves. | |||
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"The crux of the argument here is the failure to accept trans women as actual women. Transgender is a reality and i find it difficult to believe there are still people around with such outmoded, bigotted views. Why is it so important that transwomen are considered women? Why is it so bad to be considered trans? That's the question." Because the argument revolves around that principal. Why don't you tell me why it's so bad to be considered trans as you seem to be the one that has a problem with it. | |||
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"You see? Women have to find a strategy to get men to shut up and allow women to speak. Women are not automatically given the right by men, and some women, to be respected without abuse. We have to cajole and pacify because we've been frightened of the repercussions if we don't, if we treaten add they treat us. " Biggest load of shite I've read in this thread... | |||
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"maybe I'm on the wrong lines here but take the home care industry. why is it women get the choice to refuse a male to care for them? yet unless their is a physical or sexual reason males don't get the choice not to have femail carers " Probably because they think a man is more likely to sexually assault a woman than a woman will a man. Also on religious grounds. I've had a couple of great male nurses I would have been comfortable tending to my toilet or bathing needs. | |||
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"You see? Women have to find a strategy to get men to shut up and allow women to speak. Women are not automatically given the right by men, and some women, to be respected without abuse. We have to cajole and pacify because we've been frightened of the repercussions if we don't, if we treaten add they treat us. Biggest load of shite I've read in this thread... " I don't wait to be allowed to do anything; or cajole or whatever. I have a voice and I use it. | |||
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"The crux of the argument here is the failure to accept trans women as actual women. Transgender is a reality and i find it difficult to believe there are still people around with such outmoded, bigotted views. Why is it so important that transwomen are considered women? Why is it so bad to be considered trans? That's the question. Because the argument revolves around that principal. Why don't you tell me why it's so bad to be considered trans as you seem to be the one that has a problem with it." I don't! I have a problem with men continually demsnding women be compromised | |||
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"Jesus Christ, I don't know why im still shocked by transphobia on this site. Some of you really need to give your head a wobble, either that or fuck off to somewhere in Eastern Europe or the middle east where your backwards views are more acceptable I don't care if men want to be female. I do care when they hurt women by doing so. And how, how are they hurting women? There has been literally zero cases of trans people sexually assaulting anyone in a women's bathroom as your 'fear' says. All they want is exactly what natural born women want. If anything their lives are much more difficult than yours and have to live with a fear of physical and/or sexual assault or mockery every day of their lives Check out skepticat on Twitter. That's a good start. But that's only one part of men compromising women. Again. Look at women's refuges and sports as two examples. Because one person on Twitter and never fully researched articles on trans people in sport and definately facts and the way to base a logical arguement. If you ever read into the articles on trans people in sport it's usually from American high school sports like the story that went famous a few months back about the ftm that was wrestling women and beating them every time. This story was reported wrong over and over and never mentioned it was from and not mtf, people kept taking it as a man who wanted to be a woman and they were forced to fight him because of that. The truth was that it was a ftm that wanted nothing more than to wrestle in the men's competitions but the state and school rules would not allow him to do so because he was born a female so he had no other choice. Frankly you can't argue with bigots and narrow mindedness, you only see what you want to see and not the reality behind it. It just amazes me that someone that must have faced some prejudices in their life would do the exact same to a minority that's trying to be on their side I think skepticat had some pretty real experiences of violence by a transwoman. Ok. So how are you trying to be on women's side?" for one, I am not trans and two, how are my efforts of any relevance to the discussion. Also, by 'a Transwoman' a, as in one. Do you know how are assaulted and murdered annually and your arguement is of one case. Honestly I'm not arguing this anymore, I can already see you just want to fly to flip this as something to do with me as opposed to confronting your own narrow minded view. Oppressing women is terrible, but oppressing trans people is fine I'm not getting into another arguement with close minded individuals on this fact, I'll continue living in the modern day and I'll leave you to your bigoted views. Have a good day | |||
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"You see? Women have to find a strategy to get men to shut up and allow women to speak. Women are not automatically given the right by men, and some women, to be respected without abuse. We have to cajole and pacify because we've been frightened of the repercussions if we don't, if we treaten add they treat us. Biggest load of shite I've read in this thread... " I’m not 100% sure it is entirely inaccurate a statement. | |||
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" I don't! I have a problem with men continually demsnding women be compromised " What - in the same way that you continually demand that trans-women be compromised...??? | |||
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"Jesus Christ, I don't know why im still shocked by transphobia on this site. Some of you really need to give your head a wobble, either that or fuck off to somewhere in Eastern Europe or the middle east where your backwards views are more acceptable I don't care if men want to be female. I do care when they hurt women by doing so. And how, how are they hurting women? There has been literally zero cases of trans people sexually assaulting anyone in a women's bathroom as your 'fear' says. All they want is exactly what natural born women want. If anything their lives are much more difficult than yours and have to live with a fear of physical and/or sexual assault or mockery every day of their lives Check out skepticat on Twitter. That's a good start. But that's only one part of men compromising women. Again. Look at women's refuges and sports as two examples. Because one person on Twitter and never fully researched articles on trans people in sport and definately facts and the way to base a logical arguement. If you ever read into the articles on trans people in sport it's usually from American high school sports like the story that went famous a few months back about the ftm that was wrestling women and beating them every time. This story was reported wrong over and over and never mentioned it was from and not mtf, people kept taking it as a man who wanted to be a woman and they were forced to fight him because of that. The truth was that it was a ftm that wanted nothing more than to wrestle in the men's competitions but the state and school rules would not allow him to do so because he was born a female so he had no other choice. Frankly you can't argue with bigots and narrow mindedness, you only see what you want to see and not the reality behind it. It just amazes me that someone that must have faced some prejudices in their life would do the exact same to a minority that's trying to be on their side I think skepticat had some pretty real experiences of violence by a transwoman. Ok. So how are you trying to be on women's side? for one, I am not trans and two, how are my efforts of any relevance to the discussion. Also, by 'a Transwoman' a, as in one. Do you know how are assaulted and murdered annually and your arguement is of one case. Honestly I'm not arguing this anymore, I can already see you just want to fly to flip this as something to do with me as opposed to confronting your own narrow minded view. Oppressing women is terrible, but oppressing trans people is fine I'm not getting into another arguement with close minded individuals on this fact, I'll continue living in the modern day and I'll leave you to your bigoted views. Have a good day "It was a genuine question. But hey. This is fab. | |||
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"You see? Women have to find a strategy to get men to shut up and allow women to speak. Women are not automatically given the right by men, and some women, to be respected without abuse. We have to cajole and pacify because we've been frightened of the repercussions if we don't, if we treaten add they treat us. Biggest load of shite I've read in this thread... I’m not 100% sure it is entirely inaccurate a statement. " I’m also most definitely not pro TERF or SWERF. | |||
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" I don't! I have a problem with men continually demsnding women be compromised What - in the same way that you continually demand that trans-women be compromised...??? "How it's it compromising men to say they shouldn't compromise women? Oh yes,that's right, they've always done it, so they must be right | |||
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"The crux of the argument here is the failure to accept trans women as actual women. Transgender is a reality and i find it difficult to believe there are still people around with such outmoded, bigotted views. Why is it so important that transwomen are considered women? Why is it so bad to be considered trans? That's the question. Because the argument revolves around that principal. Why don't you tell me why it's so bad to be considered trans as you seem to be the one that has a problem with it. I don't! I have a problem with men continually demsnding women be compromised " If you want to bar them from using women's toilets then clearly you do. I ask again; would you send a trans woman criminal to a male prison? | |||
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" Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez. And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully. You may be right. It wasn’t my intent. I simply wanted to use whatever strategy I could to have the opportunity to hear your thoughts. You see? Women have to find a strategy to get men to shut up and allow women to speak. Women are not automatically given the right by men, and some women, to be respected without abuse. We have to cajole and pacify because we've been frightened of the repercussions if we don't, if we treaten add they treat us. I've been called a misandrist, bitter, must have an unhappy life, all because I see women's lives and rights being compromised by men. As usual. So be it." You know the person who runs are Country is a woman right and the person she has to answer to, is also a woman. | |||
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" I don't! I have a problem with men continually demsnding women be compromised What - in the same way that you continually demand that trans-women be compromised...???
How it's it compromising men to say they shouldn't compromise women? Oh yes,that's right, they've always done it, so they must be right "Thanks for finally caving ysy boys win rnd of thread woop woop | |||
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"In the end, you begin to think that this is what everyone opposed to you is thinking. See the unhelpful ‘all Brexiteers are racist’ for another practical example of how it does not help one’s cause. Thinking? No they are actually wanting to use women’s toilets into women’s sports. And being allowed to do so. Trans-women have also committed appalling acts of violence against women. " That’s not what I was talking about. I was replying to you saying, “I suspect they are fearful they will be treated as they have treated women .” It’s not helpful to fight something that you suspect some of your opponents might think. . "So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour." No. Not at all, and I never came remotely close to implying that. Men are responsible for men’s behaviour. . "I'm not here to do your homework for you. If you're genuinely interested do some research. Skepticat on Twitter is a good place to start." One would have assumed that, before you were willing to make the statement, you were already in possession of the evidence to support it. It is not good debating form to say, “Here’s my argument, it’s your job to find the evidence to support it.” . "What do you think I'm doing? I'm not keeping quiet about the inequality of men wanting access to women's spaces. Unlike you. Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez." I had hoped that we could have the discussion about feminism without being distracted by the gender identity argument. Unfortunately, it seems that your views on trans women are going to prohibit that. There are very few cases of men trying to access female spaces under the guise of transgenderism. What you’ll find is that men who want to enter women’s spaces just do it. But, even when everyone has equal opportunities, there always, always be individual transgressions. You really, really need to stop taking the actions of a minority and using them to cloud the overall picture. | |||
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" Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez. And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully. You may be right. It wasn’t my intent. I simply wanted to use whatever strategy I could to have the opportunity to hear your thoughts. You see? Women have to find a strategy to get men to shut up and allow women to speak. Women are not automatically given the right by men, and some women, to be respected without abuse. We have to cajole and pacify because we've been frightened of the repercussions if we don't, if we treaten add they treat us. I've been called a misandrist, bitter, must have an unhappy life, all because I see women's lives and rights being compromised by men. As usual. So be it. You know the person who runs are Country is a woman right and the person she has to answer to, is also a woman. " Oh that's OK then. Silly little me, I'll go back to my kittens and nonsense. A man has spoken | |||
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"In the end, you begin to think that this is what everyone opposed to you is thinking. See the unhelpful ‘all Brexiteers are racist’ for another practical example of how it does not help one’s cause. Thinking? No they are actually wanting to use women’s toilets into women’s sports. And being allowed to do so. Trans-women have also committed appalling acts of violence against women. That’s not what I was talking about. I was replying to you saying, “I suspect they are fearful they will be treated as they have treated women .” It’s not helpful to fight something that you suspect some of your opponents might think. . So once again women are held responsible for men’s behaviour. No. Not at all, and I never came remotely close to implying that. Men are responsible for men’s behaviour. . I'm not here to do your homework for you. If you're genuinely interested do some research. Skepticat on Twitter is a good place to start. One would have assumed that, before you were willing to make the statement, you were already in possession of the evidence to support it. It is not good debating form to say, “Here’s my argument, it’s your job to find the evidence to support it.” . What do you think I'm doing? I'm not keeping quiet about the inequality of men wanting access to women's spaces. Unlike you. Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez. I had hoped that we could have the discussion about feminism without being distracted by the gender identity argument. Unfortunately, it seems that your views on trans women are going to prohibit that. There are very few cases of men trying to access female spaces under the guise of transgenderism. What you’ll find is that men who want to enter women’s spaces just do it. But, even when everyone has equal opportunities, there always, always be individual transgressions. You really, really need to stop taking the actions of a minority and using them to cloud the overall picture." You really, really need to not tell me what to do. Oh but you're a man and I'm only a silly woman. | |||
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" You really, really need to not tell me what to do. Oh but you're a man and I'm only a silly woman. " Genuinely laughed at this... you are deluded.. | |||
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" I had hoped that we could have the discussion about feminism without being distracted by the gender identity argument. Unfortunately, it seems that your views on trans women are going to prohibit that. " You’ve summed up here my frustrations that these threads only ever become about this point. | |||
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" I don't! I have a problem with men continually demsnding women be compromised What - in the same way that you continually demand that trans-women be compromised...???
How it's it compromising men to say they shouldn't compromise women? Oh yes,that's right, they've always done it, so they must be right "You really know how to side-step issues, don't you? What you seem to be saying is that men have always done the compromising, so now you want to take a turn at it and compromise a group of people - not as individuals but just because of who they are... Two wrongs do not make a right..! | |||
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" You really, really need to not tell me what to do. Oh but you're a man and I'm only a silly woman. Genuinely laughed at this... you are deluded.." I did point that out at the start of the thread. #justsaying | |||
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" I had hoped that we could have the discussion about feminism without being distracted by the gender identity argument. Unfortunately, it seems that your views on trans women are going to prohibit that. You’ve summed up here my frustrations that these threads only ever become about this point. " I'm beginning to think we should start again. | |||
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"No they reply or talk but us men never listen lmfaoo " Yes you do | |||
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"No they reply or talk but us men never listen lmfaoo Yes you do "Only if they are naked usually? Oooops, is that the wrong thing to say? Lol | |||
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" I had hoped that we could have the discussion about feminism without being distracted by the gender identity argument. Unfortunately, it seems that your views on trans women are going to prohibit that. You’ve summed up here my frustrations that these threads only ever become about this point. I'm beginning to think we should start again. "If you can pose a thread and set the necessary parameters then go for it. | |||
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"You see? Women have to find a strategy to get men to shut up and allow women to speak. Women are not automatically given the right by men, and some women, to be respected without abuse. We have to cajole and pacify because we've been frightened of the repercussions if we don't, if we treaten add they treat us. I've been called a misandrist, bitter, must have an unhappy life, all because I see women's lives and rights being compromised by men. As usual. So be it." That’s a really, really warped perception of what has happened in this thread. You’ve said some pretty repugnant things, but now want to play the victim? Nah. I’m not having that. Men and women have been freely able to express themselves in this thread, as with any thread here. There has been no talking down by one gender to the other. Your world view is off-kilter, and you come across as incredibly bitter. Your arguments are driven by baseless emotion, and are harmful to the notion of equality. . "You really, really need to not tell me what to do. Oh but you're a man and I'm only a silly woman." A perfect example of the empty nonsense you come away with in the name of feminism. I’m not disagreeing with you because you’re a woman. You’ll notice, in a thread full of women, that you are the only person I’m disagreeing with. Why? Because your arguments are hateful. Utterly repulsive. It’s worth noting that, in response to my post, you could not come up with a single argument to refute anything I said. | |||
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" I had hoped that we could have the discussion about feminism without being distracted by the gender identity argument. Unfortunately, it seems that your views on trans women are going to prohibit that. You’ve summed up here my frustrations that these threads only ever become about this point. I'm beginning to think we should start again.
If you can pose a thread and set the necessary parameters then go for it. "I can't claim to be an expert, all i know is women should be equal to men. End of story, sorry. | |||
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" Another prime example of a woman supportng men in oppression of women. Geez. And estella, you're as bad. Your gentle rebuking of broken brilliance is a typical subservient woman response to a male bully. You may be right. It wasn’t my intent. I simply wanted to use whatever strategy I could to have the opportunity to hear your thoughts. You see? Women have to find a strategy to get men to shut up and allow women to speak. Women are not automatically given the right by men, and some women, to be respected without abuse. We have to cajole and pacify because we've been frightened of the repercussions if we don't, if we treaten add they treat us. I've been called a misandrist, bitter, must have an unhappy life, all because I see women's lives and rights being compromised by men. As usual. So be it. You know the person who runs are Country is a woman right and the person she has to answer to, is also a woman. Oh that's OK then. Silly little me, I'll go back to my kittens and nonsense. A man has spoken " I was trying to give an example of why your statement that women need to find a strategy to shut men up to speak is total bollocks, cause the two most powerful people in the country are women. But your view on men seems to cloud every opinion you make. I’m sure the original feminists, the suffragettes would laugh at the stuff you’re coming out with as men oppressing you after what they had to do to be heard just to get to vote. | |||
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