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The wet sand

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Am interested if im correct in thinking that nobody can own the wet sand, like below high tide mark. Even the queen who owns coast line does not own the wet sand (below high tide)

Reason I ask this is surely in areas where the is a dog ban, the dog ban is actually only above the high tide mark, so therefore if one walked dog on wet sand only and didn't get onto wet sand by crossing banned land, what could be done? Id imagine this be like a test case if went court as people up down country been fined for dogs on beaches during bans.

Also begs questions to so called private beaches...private maybe to get onto it, but not the wet sand.

Anyone any thoughts on dog ban not being legal

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The samiad would know

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By *hortfuseWoman
over a year ago

Belfast

I thought the wet sand thing was a US argument and the Crown Estate owns a huge percentage of beaches and the territorial seabed out to 12 nautical miles?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I thought the wet sand thing was a US argument and the Crown Estate owns a huge percentage of beaches and the territorial seabed out to 12 nautical miles?"

See I was on the understanding that no one even the state owns the water and thus the sand or sea bed under it.

Its like canoeing a river. Even a private salmon owned river, yes they own the bank and land surround it, but not the water way passing through.

As a kayak lover you would not believe the amount of rivers, that when passing through on a kayak the land owner throws something at you, yet you are legally entitled to paddle all rivers

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Also im sure the captain of a vessel off to france, told me British waters extended 10 nautical miles out, and once past this area, is considered international waters but maybe your correct with 12

Sure someone here will actually know?

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

I know that the crown owns all the riverbeds except at Beaulieu in Hampshire.

Dogs are banned from certain beaches in our area during peak season. I think its sensible and there are beaches they can use.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Dogs are banned on most beaches near me from April to September.I would suggest to get to the wet sand with your dog you would have to cross the beach unless you arrive by boat.The beach most likely extends to the lowest tidal point of the year on a spring tide.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The local landowner or public authority own the land (and beach) above the high water mark.

The beach between high and low water marks are Crown Propety, and so come under local bylaws.

Hope this helps.

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

I believe that the jurisdiction of a country extends a certain distance out to sea and from there on is governed by international waters rules.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"The local landowner or public authority own the land (and beach) above the high water mark.

The beach between high and low water marks are Crown Propety, and so come under local bylaws.

Hope this helps.

"

But surely a bylaw has to be created with public approval?

Like if enough people disagree with it can have it changed.

Would I be correct in thinking a bylaw has to come up for review? It cant be for life surely

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"The local landowner or public authority own the land (and beach) above the high water mark.

The beach between high and low water marks are Crown Propety, and so come under local bylaws.

Hope this helps.

"

So if you take a shell from bellow tide line your stealing from crown rather than local council.

What about people been prosecuted for taking sand from a beach by a council, surely if crown owner, then as a person of that lands, is it not actually ours? The people in power are supposed to represent us the people, so surely whats crown land is common land, owned by every person of that land.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Crown land is owned by the monarch . Common land gives commoners(us) the right to roam and graze cattle and forage on it.Anyone can use it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You don't have the right to paddle every river, many are restricted.

Think the beach rule is from the average low water level, therefore quite difficult to access legally if restrictions apply.

Hope this helps (from a fellow kayaker)

you.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"You don't have the right to paddle every river, many are restricted.

Think the beach rule is from the average low water level, therefore quite difficult to access legally if restrictions apply.

Hope this helps (from a fellow kayaker)

you."

Have never come across a restricted river bro

Even if did

Would you not paddle something because a sign said no

Its a scene in ´into the wild´ film, the main character wants to paddle down the river, yet needs a permit and the usa officer tells him something like two year waiting list for a slot.

He just gets a kayak and does it fuck the licence ha

Have had a bit of trouble in past on river tay Scotland and also the river nith, which is owned by a Lord and his fly fishing t wearing fuck witts who actually throw wood and stones at three kayakers..

While shouting "get off my land" and other choice words.

Ha but river is river to me, nobody can own water as long as im floating is how ive always seen it and been kayaking since ymca age 7

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By *G LanaTV/TS
over a year ago

Gosport

As far as I can tell, like so many things under UK law, our rights regarding waterways are a mess.

From the British Canoeing Union:

Throughout England and Wales there is a high level of uncertainty regarding the legal rights of the public to use canoes and kayaks on different waterways.

The situation described below has caused many organisations and observers to state that the law is unclear. In 1973, the Select Committee of the House of Lords on Sport & Leisure stated “The legal question of rights of way over water must be settled. A number of different interpretations of this right of way have been referred to in evidence and it is time for these to be resolved”. More recently, a series of access studies, legal and historical research, along with statements from bodies such as DEFRA and the Welsh Assembly Government, have also shown the issue of access to and along water in England and Wales is legally unclear.

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By *G LanaTV/TS
over a year ago

Gosport

Tidal waters and the coast

In nearly all cases there is a Public Right of Navigation (PRN) on tidal waters. This includes the seas, estuaries and tidal rivers – up to their historic Normal Tidal Limit (NTL). Where a river’s tidal limit has by altered by the building of weirs, sluices or other structures the historic (or natural, unrestricted) NTL is the relevant limit. The right to navigate tidal waters may be subject to a payment of harbour dues and restrictions due to exclusion zones or use by the Ministry of Defence.

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By *G LanaTV/TS
over a year ago

Gosport

Non-tidal rivers

Read more 

In England and Wales there are differing opinions regarding Public Rights of Navigation (PRN) along non-tidal waters. The bed and banks of all rivers and canals are privately owned, and many believe this gives the landowner the right to control navigation. British Canoeing believes recent legal research has cast significant doubt upon this interpretation of the law. Some waterways do have a widely recognised Public Right of Navigation, such as the Upper Severn and the Wye. Many other waterways find their status disputed despite clear evidence of both Statutory and Common Law rights of navigation.

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By *G LanaTV/TS
over a year ago

Gosport

Canals and River Navigations

Read more 

All canals and rivers actively maintained as navigations have public access, subject to a payment for a license/registration where required. Where navigations have been abandoned it can be unclear if there is still a Public Right of Navigation (PRN). You can find more details of the canals and rivers actively managed for navigation on our licences page.

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By *G LanaTV/TS
over a year ago

Gosport

Scotland

In Scotland the law is different. Here the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 applies and the Scottish Canoe Association can advise.

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By *G LanaTV/TS
over a year ago

Gosport

Trespass on Land

Regardless of any Public Right of Navigation (PRN) on a waterway the land on each bank is likely to be privately owned. Going to a private place without actual or implied permission could constitute an act of trespass. We advise all paddlers to read British Canoeing’s Trespass Guidance.

If you are unsure of the access position on your local waterways, please see our Waterways Advisors page to find details of who to contact for more information.

Sorry I know this doesn't help with the OPs question but might help clarify the canoeing issues discussed.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Interesting reading but mumbo jumbo

In truth I've never let a sign stop me going on water.

Had some difficulties with American forces marine boats straying bit close to their ship off Scottish waters, but that was long time ago.

And its only ever been fly fishermen who have ever said anything on that many rivers all over uk

But then I would jump off a cliff or pier that says no jumping or in youth drop off in a kayak.....splashhhhh

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Under Roman law, the shore of the sea, as far as the waves go at their furthest point, is considered as belonging to all men. However, today, most of the foreshore in the UK (including at least 50% of the Scottish foreshore) is owned by the Crown, and managed by the Crown Estate Commissioners. Some areas of foreshore are owned by local planning authorities, harbour authorities, private estates or landowners. Their claim of ownership may extend to the seabed (below the low water mark), particularly within sea inlets, but this subtidal extension of private ownership is often disputed by the Crown Estate Commissioners.

Brinkman v. Matley [1904] 2 Ch 313 at 315, Buckley J: "By the common law all the King’s subjects have in general a right of passage over the sea with vessels for the purposes of navigation and have prima facie a common of fishery there and they have the same rights over the foreshore at the times when the foreshore is covered with water."

Get it up ya river owners

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