FabSwingers.com forum: There are only 2 genders

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

this was the title of a You tube that I saw recently.

This guy sat on a bench in a US college campus with that written on a sign and invited people to come discuss it with him,see if they could change his mind.

It is quite possible that the only people passing that day just happened to be the most inarticulate,lacking in eloquence, mumbling fuckwits in town but,no one managed to give a convincing argument against this guys proposition.

I'd have quite enjoyed the chance for a discussion on this subject but,I'd like to see what others think. Could you have changed this guys mind?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

Depends how closed his mind is I think.

Some people can be educated on these kinda things, others can't, which is a shame.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *rumpyMcFuckNuggetMan
over a year ago

Den of Iniquity

Physically you are born either Male or Female so in that sense then yes there are only 2 sexes. I'm not particularly bothered what a person calls themselves after 18 . That's up to them .

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Depends how closed his mind is I think.

Some people can be educated on these kinda things, others can't, which is a shame.

The thing was, there was no reason to think he was closed minded.He invited people to discuss with him but,there didn't seem to be anyone around that day who could string a coherent sentence together. (A damning indictment of US education, if you ask me).

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Physically you are born either Male or Female so in that sense then yes there are only 2 sexes. I'm not particularly bothered what a person calls themselves after 18 . That's up to them ."

Actually slim, that's not always the case...some people, albeit few people are born with less straightforward biology and have both or aspects of both male and female reproductive parts.

Regardless of age, the way someone feels, identifies and would like to be approached doesn't affect me, let them be them I say

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Physically you are born either Male or Female so in that sense then yes there are only 2 sexes. I'm not particularly bothered what a person calls themselves after 18 . That's up to them ."

There are those who would say that sex and gender are not the same thing. He specified 'gender' rather than sex.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Depends how closed his mind is I think.

Some people can be educated on these kinda things, others can't, which is a shame.

Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not taking into acount the several thousand to one 'abnormalities' there are only 2 sexes. Gender can be whatever the heck you want it to be. Nature doesn't need any more than 2 to continue a species. You can't really get away from natural law in this instance. One male one female....that's all it needs. But as i say there are infrequent gene abnormalities.

There can be as many genders as you like.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *rumpyMcFuckNuggetMan
over a year ago

Den of Iniquity

"Physically you are born either Male or Female so in that sense then yes there are only 2 sexes. I'm not particularly bothered what a person calls themselves after 18 . That's up to them .

There are those who would say that sex and gender are not the same thing. He specified 'gender' rather than sex."
Yeah fair enough ..As I said I'm not overly fussed what gender anybody wants to call themselves

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Depends how closed his mind is I think.

Some people can be educated on these kinda things, others can't, which is a shame.

Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

TBH I very much doubt he would change his mind under any circumstances (you have to wonder about his motivation for posing the problem in the first place) but,I'd have enjoyed the discussion too.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Physically you are born either Male or Female so in that sense then yes there are only 2 sexes. I'm not particularly bothered what a person calls themselves after 18 . That's up to them .

There are those who would say that sex and gender are not the same thing. He specified 'gender' rather than sex."

I fear that if he couldn't muster intelligent debate on a university campus.... You have no chance on a fab forum. Most people can barely articulate their bigoted views in English.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Physically you are born either Male or Female so in that sense then yes there are only 2 sexes. I'm not particularly bothered what a person calls themselves after 18 . That's up to them .

There are those who would say that sex and gender are not the same thing. He specified 'gender' rather than sex.

I fear that if he couldn't muster intelligent debate on a university campus.... You have no chance on a fab forum. Most people can barely articulate their bigoted views in English. "

Actually,I think I have more faith in the intellectual ability of Fab people than that of American students,especially after watching that you tube clip.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"Physically you are born either Male or Female so in that sense then yes there are only 2 sexes. I'm not particularly bothered what a person calls themselves after 18 . That's up to them .

There are those who would say that sex and gender are not the same thing. He specified 'gender' rather than sex.

I fear that if he couldn't muster intelligent debate on a university campus.... You have no chance on a fab forum. Most people can barely articulate their bigoted views in English.

Actually,I think I have more faith in the intellectual ability of Fab people than that of American students,especially after watching that you tube clip."

I think I've seen that one.

I appreciate the idea that gender is a social concept, but what has always struck me as troubling is how one defines gender categories if you don't anchor them on biology.

What makes someone. "male" for example, if it isn't possession of a penis and testicles?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Physically you are born either Male or Female so in that sense then yes there are only 2 sexes. I'm not particularly bothered what a person calls themselves after 18 . That's up to them .

There are those who would say that sex and gender are not the same thing. He specified 'gender' rather than sex.

I fear that if he couldn't muster intelligent debate on a university campus.... You have no chance on a fab forum. Most people can barely articulate their bigoted views in English.

Actually,I think I have more faith in the intellectual ability of Fab people than that of American students,especially after watching that you tube clip.

I think I've seen that one.

I appreciate the idea that gender is a social concept, but what has always struck me as troubling is how one defines gender categories if you don't anchor them on biology.

What makes someone. "male" for example, if it isn't possession of a penis and testicles?

Well if gender is a social concept, surely transgenderism is one as well ?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My own views on the subject are,the shortened version, yes,there are two genders.There is 'Masculine' and 'Feminine'.These two names have been arbitrarily assigned to them and have nothing to do with 'Male' or 'Female'.

There are characteristics displayed by people that we consider to be feminine or masculine. Male people sometimes exhibit feminine characteristics and female people sometimes exhibit masculine characteristics. i.e not all males are masculine and not all masculine people are male.Not all females are feminine and not all feminine people are female.

Further more,not all masculine people are equally masculine and not all feminine people are equally feminine. (we are not all Marilyn Monroe or Clint Eastwood).

So,the two genders named 'masculine' or 'feminine' are just two ends of a spectrum of behaviors,attitudes and feelings.There is nothing in our physical make up that firmly states where on that spectrum we lie. It is more about personality than about physicality.

Not only that,we do not necessarily sit at the same point on that spectrum all the time.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emini ManMan
over a year ago

There and to the left a bit

"Depends how closed his mind is I think.

Some people can be educated on these kinda things, others can't, which is a shame.

Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

TBH I very much doubt he would change his mind under any circumstances (you have to wonder about his motivation for posing the problem in the first place) but,I'd have enjoyed the discussion too."

I guess the other question to consider is how "edited" in favour of his statement the video was? May well have been that a lot of very articulate people were able to put up compelling arguments but that didn't fit his statement so they were not included?

Personally I don't necessarily look at gender but the individual - but can accept there are various different flavours beyond simply male and female

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"My own views on the subject are,the shortened version, yes,there are two genders.There is 'Masculine' and 'Feminine'.These two names have been arbitrarily assigned to them and have nothing to do with 'Male' or 'Female'.

Further more,not all masculine people are equally masculine and not all feminine people are equally feminine. (we are not all Marilyn Monroe or Clint Eastwood).

Not only that,we do not necessarily sit at the same point on that spectrum all the time.

Isn't that basically a argument that gender doesn't exist? None of us has 100% stereotypical female or 100% stereotypical male characteristics. Hence masculinity and feminity do not exist as pure forms.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Depends how closed his mind is I think.

Some people can be educated on these kinda things, others can't, which is a shame.

Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

TBH I very much doubt he would change his mind under any circumstances (you have to wonder about his motivation for posing the problem in the first place) but,I'd have enjoyed the discussion too.

Personally I don't necessarily look at gender but the individual - but can accept there are various different flavours beyond simply male and female "

If there were people who gave good arguments,I would have liked to hear his rebuttal of those arguments too. A one sided debate is never very interesting but,I do like a good argument.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"this was the title of a You tube that I saw recently.

This guy sat on a bench in a US college campus with that written on a sign and invited people to come discuss it with him,see if they could change his mind.

I'd have quite enjoyed the chance for a discussion on this subject but,I'd like to see what others think. Could you have changed this guys mind?

Wouldn't have wanted to try. His position is inarguable.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Further more,not all masculine people are equally masculine and not all feminine people are equally feminine. (we are not all Marilyn Monroe or Clint Eastwood).

Not only that,we do not necessarily sit at the same point on that spectrum all the time.

It could be an argument that 'gender' as in stereotypical gender roles and behaviours,have no real basis in nature.

Other than maternal instinct (which is not universally felt) I'm not sure I can think of any basis in nature for these roles.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emini ManMan
over a year ago

There and to the left a bit

Personally I don't necessarily look at gender but the individual - but can accept there are various different flavours beyond simply male and female

If there were people who gave good arguments,I would have liked to hear his rebuttal of those arguments too. A one sided debate is never very interesting but,I do like a good argument."

Oh me too - a good debate even if both parties never agree is always interesting, but sadly too often I find this kind of video is deliberately skewed or even staged to make a point

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

Further more,not all masculine people are equally masculine and not all feminine people are equally feminine. (we are not all Marilyn Monroe or Clint Eastwood).

Not only that,we do not necessarily sit at the same point on that spectrum all the time.

It could be an argument that 'gender' as in stereotypical gender roles and behaviours,have no real basis in nature.

Other than maternal instinct (which is not universally felt) I'm not sure I can think of any basis in nature for these roles."

I agree with that. It seems to me that on the one hand there are gender roles that are socially constructed and subject to change and physical biology which isn't.

Hence it makes no sense to me to say, call someone a man, purely because they perform social roles that are considered masculine in the UK in 2018.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Further more,not all masculine people are equally masculine and not all feminine people are equally feminine. (we are not all Marilyn Monroe or Clint Eastwood).

Not only that,we do not necessarily sit at the same point on that spectrum all the time.

It could be an argument that 'gender' as in stereotypical gender roles and behaviours,have no real basis in nature.

Other than maternal instinct (which is not universally felt) I'm not sure I can think of any basis in nature for these roles.

I agree with that. It seems to me that on the one hand there are gender roles that are socially constructed and subject to change and physical biology which isn't.

Hence it makes no sense to me to say, call someone a man, purely because they perform social roles that are considered masculine in the UK in 2018."

Would you say then ,that whether or not some one is Male or Female is dictated by their physical form,whereas whether or not someone is Masculine or Feminine is dictated by how ever they wish to be (or by how ever others perceive them to be)?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When I was a kid we used to just dye your hair green and wear doctor Martin boots to stand out as different from society!.

It's more complicated these days

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

Further more,not all masculine people are equally masculine and not all feminine people are equally feminine. (we are not all Marilyn Monroe or Clint Eastwood).

Not only that,we do not necessarily sit at the same point on that spectrum all the time.

It could be an argument that 'gender' as in stereotypical gender roles and behaviours,have no real basis in nature.

Other than maternal instinct (which is not universally felt) I'm not sure I can think of any basis in nature for these roles.

I agree with that. It seems to me that on the one hand there are gender roles that are socially constructed and subject to change and physical biology which isn't.

Hence it makes no sense to me to say, call someone a man, purely because they perform social roles that are considered masculine in the UK in 2018.

Not quite. For words to have any meaning, there has to be an objective definition to them. The word "masculine" has a certain meaning within the social context of the UK in 2018. If you call yourself masculine but don't conform to that definition then I would say you were incorrect.

Identity can never be entirely subjective.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more."

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that "

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I don't necessarily agree with many of the things I speak out on. I simply think that every person should be free to live their lives as they want to without any grief or judgement from others. Providing they're not hurting anyone of course.

If a biological male would rather be referred to as she and identifies as something other than male, who am I to tell them they're wrong? It doesn't affect me, so I'll happily refer to them as "she" and be just as pleasant to them as I would anyone else.

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I believe you are either male or female from birth.

If somebody cuts off a little a bit here or implants a little bit there and wants to call themself something else, that’s fine, it doesn’t effect my life. Just don’t resort to insults when I disagree with you

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone? "

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

Nooooo. I once spent all night hiding in motorway services. Started off in the gents toilets, which smelled pretty bad, so switched to the ladies, which was far more pleasant.

Also I have lived in accomodation with mixed shower blocks. There was a lot of dropped soap..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I believe you are either male or female from birth.

Isn't it nice when a discussion can proceed without resorting to personal insults. part of what I didn't like about the you tube clip was that I probably wouldn't be on the same wavelength as the guy but, a woman turned up who possibly would be on the same page as me and her only contribution was to say ''Fuck you''. Quite honestly,I don't really want people like that on my side or fighting my corner.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences. "

Totally! That's why I think many things should be unisex

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Men as tv/ts have been using the female toilets forever anyway. But to allow men into female only spaces just because they self identify as female is dangerous. Unisex toilets would be horrific and become male only in actuality, and use of accessible toilets would be abused even more.

It's also wrong to allow them to enter as a female in sport. There is no parity.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *agermeisterMan
over a year ago

Leeds

"Physically you are born either Male or Female so in that sense then yes there are only 2 sexes. I'm not particularly bothered what a person calls themselves after 18 . That's up to them ."

Sex is different to gender.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Men as tv/ts have been using the female toilets forever anyway. But to allow men into female only spaces just because they self identify as female is dangerous. Unisex toilets would be horrific and become male only in actuality, and use of accessible toilets would be abused even more.

It's also wrong to allow them to enter as a female in sport. There is no parity. "

We'll have to agree to disagree on the toilets

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

If we are unable to distinguish people by biological differences which are not easy to test and are not always outwardly obvious,then what consequences could there be to someone using a changing room,for example?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

Totally! That's why I think many things should be unisex

So should biological males who self identify as men be able to enter womens sporting events and enter battered women's shelters?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

Sorry, self identify as women.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

Quite! My local sports centre has unisex changing rooms and showers, seperate cubical, no issues

It would be barbaric imo to force a trans woman post or pre op to change in a communal area full of men.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

So should biological males who self identify as men be able to enter womens sporting events"

Sport is divided on sex, not gender.

And there are rules on this already.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

Quite! My local sports centre has unisex changing rooms and showers, seperate cubical, no issues

It would be barbaric imo to force a trans woman post or pre op to change in a communal area full of men. "

But it's OK for force a woman to share female spaces with men?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

In 99% of cases its obvious whether someone is biologically male or female. For the other 1% there is no hard and fast rule. I have no issue with people who were not born female but who live as women using female facilities. . My issue is with self definition.

If we can't question a self definition of gender then we would have to accept, for example, that a male rapist who says he identifies as female would be entitled to be housed in a female prison.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So people have decided there are only 2 genders but that a simple way of dealing with things. Put it this was there are billions of people on the planet and no one exactly like me. The human nature teaches us to put things in a certain box and that is required to keep order x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

So should biological males who self identify as men be able to enter womens sporting events

Sport is divided on sex, not gender.

And there are rules on this already.

And that's altogether fine. If self definition has no social consequences because sex distinction in society will remain, I have no problem with it.

Anyone can say they are anything as long as it doesn't effect others.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

Quite! My local sports centre has unisex changing rooms and showers, seperate cubical, no issues

It would be barbaric imo to force a trans woman post or pre op to change in a communal area full of men.

But it's OK for force a woman to share female spaces with men?"

Where did I say that?

Nope, nowhere. I said hat I think there should be seperate cubical for everyone. Not one big room, not open spaces. Seperate cubical, like there are for toilets but with showers and big enough to change in.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So should biological males who self identify as men be able to enter womens sporting events

Sport is divided on sex, not gender.

And there are rules on this already.

And that's altogether fine. If self definition has no social consequences because sex distinction in society will remain, I have no problem with it.

Anyone can say they are anything as long as it doesn't effect others. "

Ditto

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

Quite! My local sports centre has unisex changing rooms and showers, seperate cubical, no issues

It would be barbaric imo to force a trans woman post or pre op to change in a communal area full of men.

But it's OK for force a woman to share female spaces with men?

Where did I say that?

Good luck getting the planning space.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

If we can't question a self definition of gender then we would have to accept, for example, that a male rapist who says he identifies as female would be entitled to be housed in a female prison. "

And yet a female who is secretly looking at child porn or abusing kids can wander naked into a ladies changing room with kids everywhere and no one minds?

Privacy and security for all I say

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

If we can't question a self definition of gender then we would have to accept, for example, that a male rapist who says he identifies as female would be entitled to be housed in a female prison. "

No one is saying that self definition trumps all other considerations in all circumstances.

It's not really helpful to the ordinary trans person to hunt for extreme examples of when people could try to use their gender as a way to gain an advantage.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So should biological males who self identify as men be able to enter womens sporting events

Sport is divided on sex, not gender.

And there are rules on this already.

And that's altogether fine. If self definition has no social consequences because sex distinction in society will remain, I have no problem with it.

Anyone can say they are anything as long as it doesn't effect others. "
.

I'm a fucking fairy!

No not that type, the bottom of the garden type

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

Quite! My local sports centre has unisex changing rooms and showers, seperate cubical, no issues

It would be barbaric imo to force a trans woman post or pre op to change in a communal area full of men.

But it's OK for force a woman to share female spaces with men?

Where did I say that?

Good luck getting the planning space."

My local sports centre has exactly this. It's not a posh place, government funded and run. They have no issues. Most changing rooms now have seperate showers and changing cubicles anyway now so it'd actually probably cost less to put them all in the same place.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

Quite! My local sports centre has unisex changing rooms and showers, seperate cubical, no issues

It would be barbaric imo to force a trans woman post or pre op to change in a communal area full of men.

But it's OK for force a woman to share female spaces with men?"

Apart from that no one should ever be forced to go to sports centres at all, what possible way is there to differentiate between male and female people in those sort of circumstances,other than by physical attributes?

Facilities are often labelled as 'Ladies' and 'gents' or 'M' and 'F'.

It could be argued that those are all open to interpretation and self identification.

They could be labelled as 'Penis' and 'No penis' but who is going to check? We'd still have to take peoples word for it in most circumstances.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

One if the biggest problems is that people don’t respect others opinions because they don’t agree, that’s why this post was always going to get argumentative ha ha

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

Quite! My local sports centre has unisex changing rooms and showers, seperate cubical, no issues

It would be barbaric imo to force a trans woman post or pre op to change in a communal area full of men.

But it's OK for force a woman to share female spaces with men?

Where did I say that?

Good luck getting the planning space.

No they don't.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Shame. I'd like to have read that

That's my view on the whole debate...and most others that cause controversy.

That's fine as far as it goes but what happens when the biological male who identifies as a woman wants to use female changing rooms, enter women's sporting events etc etc.

Do we accept that on the basis of a self definition alone?

Well, I think all changing rooms and toilets should be unisex with seperate cubical myself...but that's another debate

My point is that really treating a biological male as a female does have social consequences that effect us all. If we accept self definition then we have to be prepared to accept those consequences.

What exactly is meant by 'Biological male' and how do you tell? (It's not necessarily outwardly obvious). Do you mean 'physically male',(or physically female)?

Quite! My local sports centre has unisex changing rooms and showers, seperate cubical, no issues

It would be barbaric imo to force a trans woman post or pre op to change in a communal area full of men.

But it's OK for force a woman to share female spaces with men?

Where did I say that?

Good luck getting the planning space.

No they don't. "

OK...most I've been to personally

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ilthyStrumpetCouple
over a year ago

Trowbridge

"One if the biggest problems is that people don’t respect others opinions because they don’t agree, that’s why this post was always going to get argumentative ha ha "

You don't need to agree to respect someone's opinion...it's a shame some people seem to be unable to grasp that concept.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

Love a bit of Crowder. Saw that very debate. It was interesting to see what side of that debate got abusive and supercilious rather than attempt to put their point across in a calm and controlled fashion.

Some of the very valid points on here parallel what’s going on with the Swimming ponds on Hampstead Heath at the moment. People who have identified themselves as females to be able to enter the female only swimming spaces. This has caused users very real concern.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

If we can't question a self definition of gender then we would have to accept, for example, that a male rapist who says he identifies as female would be entitled to be housed in a female prison.

No one is saying that self definition trumps all other considerations in all circumstances.

It's not really helpful to the ordinary trans person to hunt for extreme examples of when people could try to use their gender as a way to gain an advantage.

But then if you accept that self identity doesn't trump everything then you are accepting gender isn't purely down to what an individual thinks. When it matters gender has to be defined socially, which means some people will be told their gender identification is wrong.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yeah, that's annoying. I'd have liked to have had a chat with him

Go on then...

Ignoring sexuality, sexual preference, and adult hermaphrodite... I am stating there are only 2 genders. Convince me there are more.

I'm not sure I need to convince you of anything...I'm also not sure you completely understand where I stand.

And it's not a conversation that could be had over a public forum without hijacking the entire thread.

If you want to have the discussion tho, feel free to pm me

Not a subject for PM. If it's not public it's not really a debate. Sorry also posting only on work breaks. So a pretty crap defence position too...

If a birth female later identifies as male, is there more than 2 genders? Or still male or female to choose from?