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 and who would go the extra mile and buy me some flowers haha | |||
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"With all this talk of gender pay gaps in the news and newspapers, how many of you women are willing to take me out for dinner and pay for the entire meal? and who would go the extra mile and buy me some flowers haha"I think many woman will be more then willing. Would be fair for you to pay in exchange pay for stockings, designer high heels, manicure, urban decay smoky eye pallet, foundation, scent to wear on night out. And many other things woman do to look sexy. | |||
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 lol | |||
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"Are you amazing in bed?? Then no  "And do you really expect me to put out just because you buy me a meal?! I am disgusted lol Ps I am incredible in bed | |||
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"Lots of men spends lots now a days to look good, some just as much as women so I think your counter argument is a bit dated lol"Lets say woman spend the same amount of time and money than man, for body to look sexy. Lets take out the scent because both genders wear it. The rest - there is no comparison at all in expenses - talking both about the time and the money. And you have to be so naive or want to be naive to believe otherwise. And are you for real justify gender pay gap because you pay for dinner? | |||
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"You shouldn't be making yourself look good for men. You should do it for you. And yes I am, it's a small issue, but just because it's a small issue doesn't mean you should disregard it. Should we only concentrate on major issues and forget the little stuff? " Where did I say I make myself look good for man? But if you choose to take out woman for dinner, because you love how she looks (oh yeas, now it is time for you to say that you care only about personality) that it is perfectly justifiable for you to pay for it, especially if you really care so much about fairness. (And not mentioning, that person who invites, should pay) And no, gender pay gap is no small issue - it is big issue. And even man degrading it to small issue is big issue. | |||
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"You shouldn't be making yourself look good for men. You should do it for you. And yes I am, it's a small issue, but just because it's a small issue doesn't mean you should disregard it. Should we only concentrate on major issues and forget the little stuff? Where did I say I make myself look good for man? But if you choose to take out woman for dinner, because you love how she looks (oh yeas, now it is time for you to say that you care only about personality) that it is perfectly justifiable for you to pay for it, especially if you really care so much about fairness. (And not mentioning, that person who invites, should pay) And no, gender pay gap is no small issue - it is big issue. And even man degrading it to small issue is big issue." I take it you work in politics as you have twisted everything I said lol either that or there has been a misunderstanding somewhere along the line. And honestly I know there are gaps between tv and film personalities but what actually are examples of jobs where women get paid less than men for the same hours worked with same qualifications and experience? what does smokey eye shadow do? | |||
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"Bring along some proof of income and the last three months bank statements and,if after reading them,I feel sorry for the state of poverty you are suffering,then yes.Sure I'll by you a McDonalds. I might even give you some flowers that I bought from the petrol station on the way there." So if you feel I make enough money you would let me pay for the meal?! | |||
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"I take it you work in politics as you have twisted everything I said " I would say YOU should be politician - you are quite good at changing subject when your own words are used against you
"And honestly I know there are gaps between tv and film personalities but what actually are examples of jobs where women get paid less than men for the same hours worked with same qualifications and experience? " Well - of course there is no official pay- tables in any profession - for this and that we pay woman X and man Y. It is much more subtle then that. For the same work and effort woman are not appreciated the same as man - and on this or other level it will always comes up to money. Here you have perfect example - interesting experiment when man switches email signatures with his female coworker for a week. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4300564/Man-switches-names-female-coworker-week.html And goggling this article for you I found out other article saying how female can increase 20% their eBay sells - she just to have pretend to be man. "what does smokey eye shadow do? " Oh well. Just shut up and pay for this dinner | |||
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"I take it you work in politics as you have twisted everything I said I would say YOU should be politician - you are quite good at changing subject when your own words are used against you
And honestly I know there are gaps between tv and film personalities but what actually are examples of jobs where women get paid less than men for the same hours worked with same qualifications and experience?
Well - of course there is no official pay- tables in any profession - for this and that we pay woman X and man Y. It is much more subtle then that.
For the same work and effort woman are not appreciated the same as man - and on this or other level it will always comes up to money. Here you have perfect example - interesting experiment when man switches email signatures with his female coworker for a week.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4300564/Man-switches-names-female-coworker-week.html
And goggling this article for you I found out other article saying how female can increase 20% their eBay sells - she just to have pretend to be man.
what does smokey eye shadow do?
Oh well.
Just shut up and pay for this dinner"It doesn’t always work to the man’s advantage in work. The armed forces paid women more than men from 1989 until about 2002. They were caught out and after a long fight they back paid six years of the difference. That equated to about £7000 in many cases.  | |||
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"We just play Rock Paper Scissors to decide who pays "The slowest runner is the one who pays, that's why i always wear trainers on a date. | |||
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"Lots of men spends lots now a days to look good, some just as much as women so I think your counter argument is a bit dated lol
Lets say woman spend the same amount of time and money than man, for body to look sexy. Lets take out the scent because both genders wear it. The rest - there is no comparison at all in expenses - talking both about the time and the money. And you have to be so naive or want to be naive to believe otherwise.
And are you for real justify gender pay gap because you pay for dinner? "I disagree . I ask a lady to make no more effort or spend more than I do in prep for a meet ? Your reply that "men" expect all the "jazz" is no more valid than a man saying he must pay for a gym membership as that's what "women" expect We are equals and should treat each other as such | |||
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" I disagree . I ask a lady to make no more effort or spend more than I do in prep for a meet ? Your reply that "men" expect all the "jazz" is no more valid than a man saying he must pay for a gym membership as that's what "women" expect We are equals and should treat each other as such " But we are not treat as equals. As a gender pay gap shows. Don't ask a lady who already put a lot of effort, just ask out a unattractive one. That would be fair. And it may come as a surprise to you, but actually woman also have to pay for gym membership. Of course I am not advocating for man always paying for dinner, if they are meeting frequently, they have to find a way to figure that out how to split it, and usually they do. We are different - man and woman. Physically and mentally. But we both should have the same options an possibilities in all areas - and how we use that - it is a different issue. So yeah, I am feminist, but I feminist doesn't mean that I am the same as man, because I am not and never be or want to. I like gentlemen, I like getting flowers. But I know how to return a gift (actually my bf got more presents from me then me from him) I like also partnership. I know, for many ppl it is some kind of contradiction. For me - not at all. | |||
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" As a gentleman I would always buy a man or woman a first drink just as I would hold a door , yet if not reciprocated at some stage I will be taking note at it would effect my opinion and not for the positive x " I keep a notebook and keep a running tally of how much money my friends have spent on my and how much I've spent on them. It's the only way to be sure. | |||
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"I take it you work in politics as you have twisted everything I said I would say YOU should be politician - you are quite good at changing subject when your own words are used against you
And honestly I know there are gaps between tv and film personalities but what actually are examples of jobs where women get paid less than men for the same hours worked with same qualifications and experience?
Well - of course there is no official pay- tables in any profession - for this and that we pay woman X and man Y. It is much more subtle then that.
For the same work and effort woman are not appreciated the same as man - and on this or other level it will always comes up to money. Here you have perfect example - interesting experiment when man switches email signatures with his female coworker for a week.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4300564/Man-switches-names-female-coworker-week.html
And goggling this article for you I found out other article saying how female can increase 20% their eBay sells - she just to have pretend to be man.
what does smokey eye shadow do?
Oh well.
Just shut up and pay for this dinner"One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. " For me personally - that's not possible in my industry. | |||
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" Actually I like asking attractive ladies who don't want to cover their natural beauty xxx " Oh god. That is quite a chellange actually to look fresh and naturally and not overcook. And if you really think it is effortless, well maybe if she is 20
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. For me personally - that's not possible in my industry." Which industry would that be? | |||
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" As a gentleman I would always buy a man or woman a first drink just as I would hold a door , yet if not reciprocated at some stage I will be taking note at it would effect my opinion and not for the positive x I keep a notebook and keep a running tally of how much money my friends have spent on my and how much I've spent on them. It's the only way to be sure." Otherwise it just gets nasty Jen. | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. " So if woman likes her job it is perfectly OK she is treated worse and pay worse, and she should not speak about it? | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. For me personally - that's not possible in my industry. Which industry would that be? " I'd prefer not to give such specific information away. However here's a few careers where an average individual couldn't just start their own business and employ everyone at a favourable rate: - Banker - Soldier - Police Officer - Pilot - School Teacher - Air Traffic Controller - Aerospace Engineer - Shipbuilder - Nuclear Scientist - Surgeon - Nurse I mean, I could go on... | |||
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" Actually I like asking attractive ladies who don't want to cover their natural beauty xxx Oh god. That is quite a chellange actually to look fresh and naturally and not overcook. And if you really think it is effortless, well maybe if she is 20
"I met two yesterday one 43 and one 49 , no make up When I say met I mean at work and when I say no make up I know them well enough to know x Actually I'm aware of a beautiful 20 year old who sadly obviously feels obliged to wear make up and you can tell a . The powder to my eye is not an attractive look at any age x | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? " Maybe because not everyone wants or is suited to run their own company? Or because they don't have the financial backing, or the experience, or there isn't a gap in the market? In any case, if we make 'if you're not actively dedicating your life/career to resolving a problem, then shut up about it' a rule, we'll all have to give up voicing the vast majority of our opinions... | |||
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" I met two yesterday one 43 and one 49 , no make up When I say met I mean at work and when I say no make up I know them well enough to know x Actually I'm aware of a beautiful 20 year old who sadly obviously feels obliged to wear make up and you can tell a . The powder to my eye is not an attractive look at any age x" So you actually believe when you think woman wears no make up, she actually wears no make up? I am not saying every woman do wear make up, but it is so funny when I hear compliments how natural I do look and when I know how much effort preparations cost me to look that way | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. So if woman likes her job it is perfectly OK she is treated worse and pay worse, and she should not speak about it? " So no real answer then. On any level, do you understand why people who think they are underpaid but just complain about it, don't earn as much money as people who take actions like I've described? | |||
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" So you actually believe when you think woman wears no make up, she actually wears no make up? I am not saying every woman do wear make up, but it is so funny when I hear compliments how natural I do look and when I know how much effort preparations cost me to look that way" I don't wear makeup to go out on dates and so forth. Like, I actually don't wear any makeup. None at all. Occasionally I wear it for very special events, but usually only when I'm wearing a full evening gown, cocktail outfit, or similar. Maybe it's because I'm quite careful about who I meet and so forth, but I've never had anyone reject me because I don't wear makeup. And I've never seen a lack of enthusiasm in clubs and that. | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. For me personally - that's not possible in my industry. Which industry would that be? I'd prefer not to give such specific information away. However here's a few careers where an average individual couldn't just start their own business and employ everyone at a favourable rate: - Banker - Soldier - Police Officer - Pilot - School Teacher - Air Traffic Controller - Aerospace Engineer - Shipbuilder - Nuclear Scientist - Surgeon - Nurse I mean, I could go on..." The only ones that you're correct about are: Nuclear scientist, surgeon, police officer and nurse. All the rest are semantics. For example, aerospace engineering is overwhelmingly private sector and there's nothing stopping worker cooperatives at all, the truth is that you couldn't make a business case for it. | |||
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" I met two yesterday one 43 and one 49 , no make up When I say met I mean at work and when I say no make up I know them well enough to know x Actually I'm aware of a beautiful 20 year old who sadly obviously feels obliged to wear make up and you can tell a . The powder to my eye is not an attractive look at any age x So you actually believe when you think woman wears no make up, she actually wears no make up? I am not saying every woman do wear make up, but it is so funny when I hear compliments how natural I do look and when I know how much effort preparations cost me to look that way" No I know when I ask or if I'm told x You may not realise I prob own as much make up as you and understand all about the natural look x | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. So if woman likes her job it is perfectly OK she is treated worse and pay worse, and she should not speak about it? So no real answer then. On any level, do you understand why people who think they are underpaid but just complain about it, don't earn as much money as people who take actions like I've described? " Okey, explain to me, just a simple dummy, what actions should I take if I am working as a surgeon in main London hospital, and earn less then my colleagues. Bit short of the money to take action in my hands and build my own hospital, but I am sure you can advise me on that? | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? Maybe because not everyone wants or is suited to run their own company? Or because they don't have the financial backing, or the experience, or there isn't a gap in the market? In any case, if we make 'if you're not actively dedicating your life/career to resolving a problem, then shut up about it' a rule, we'll all have to give up voicing the vast majority of our opinions... " There's a difference between letting off steam on an issue and claiming there's a massive gap in the market that nobody seems to want to address. The most likely cause of the latter is that the gap isn't real. Do you understand why people who are suited to run their own company, do have the financial backing, or the experience, tend to earn more than those who don't? | |||
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" So you actually believe when you think woman wears no make up, she actually wears no make up? I am not saying every woman do wear make up, but it is so funny when I hear compliments how natural I do look and when I know how much effort preparations cost me to look that way I don't wear makeup to go out on dates and so forth. Like, I actually don't wear any makeup. None at all. Occasionally I wear it for very special events, but usually only when I'm wearing a full evening gown, cocktail outfit, or similar. Maybe it's because I'm quite careful about who I meet and so forth, but I've never had anyone reject me because I don't wear makeup. And I've never seen a lack of enthusiasm in clubs and that. " Your words mirror those of the ladies I usually have a connection with x | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. So if woman likes her job it is perfectly OK she is treated worse and pay worse, and she should not speak about it? So no real answer then. On any level, do you understand why people who think they are underpaid but just complain about it, don't earn as much money as people who take actions like I've described? Okey, explain to me, just a simple dummy, what actions should I take if I am working as a surgeon in main London hospital, and earn less then my colleagues. Bit short of the money to take action in my hands and build my own hospital, but I am sure you can advise me on that?" Well that's easy, take your employer to a tribunal and exercise your legal right to equal pay  | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. For me personally - that's not possible in my industry. Which industry would that be? I'd prefer not to give such specific information away. However here's a few careers where an average individual couldn't just start their own business and employ everyone at a favourable rate: - Banker - Soldier - Police Officer - Pilot - School Teacher - Air Traffic Controller - Aerospace Engineer - Shipbuilder - Nuclear Scientist - Surgeon - Nurse I mean, I could go on... The only ones that you're correct about are: Nuclear scientist, surgeon, police officer and nurse. All the rest are semantics. For example, aerospace engineering is overwhelmingly private sector and there's nothing stopping worker cooperatives at all, the truth is that you couldn't make a business case for it. " Which was actually my point. You couldn't just start a business and solve the problem that way. Generally because the whole industry in this country is already run by one or two companies (and it won't be changing), or because the positions are government run. But the bigger point is that you seem to be utterly uneducated on the gender pay gap. It's not about one job being compared directly to an identical job, but the fact that from childhood women and men are encouraged to take part in different careers and life ambitions, and women's careers have historically been paid less than men (or even not at all). Things are getting better, but they're still not great. It's going to take alot of work to encourage men to throw off the stigma and become primary school teachers or carers, for example. And there's alot of education that needs doing about things like emotional labour in relationships meaning that the hours of unpaid work in partnerships are equalled. I doubt that we'll eradicate the gender pay gap within my lifetime, however I'm feel pretty positive that we're starting to head in the right direction. And at least part of that is because there are lots of companies who have decided to do what you suggest and not only pay their staff all the same (this isn't as much of a problem as what I mentioned earlier) but also to outreach into schools to educate young children that there are opportunities out there that they may not have thought of before. | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. For me personally - that's not possible in my industry. Which industry would that be? I'd prefer not to give such specific information away. However here's a few careers where an average individual couldn't just start their own business and employ everyone at a favourable rate: - Banker - Soldier - Police Officer - Pilot - School Teacher - Air Traffic Controller - Aerospace Engineer - Shipbuilder - Nuclear Scientist - Surgeon - Nurse I mean, I could go on... The only ones that you're correct about are: Nuclear scientist, surgeon, police officer and nurse. All the rest are semantics. For example, aerospace engineering is overwhelmingly private sector and there's nothing stopping worker cooperatives at all, the truth is that you couldn't make a business case for it. Which was actually my point. You couldn't just start a business and solve the problem that way. Generally because the whole industry in this country is already run by one or two companies (and it won't be changing), or because the positions are government run. But the bigger point is that you seem to be utterly uneducated on the gender pay gap. It's not about one job being compared directly to an identical job, but the fact that from childhood women and men are encouraged to take part in different careers and life ambitions, and women's careers have historically been paid less than men (or even not at all). Things are getting better, but they're still not great. It's going to take alot of work to encourage men to throw off the stigma and become primary school teachers or carers, for example. And there's alot of education that needs doing about things like emotional labour in relationships meaning that the hours of unpaid work in partnerships are equalled. I doubt that we'll eradicate the gender pay gap within my lifetime, however I'm feel pretty positive that we're starting to head in the right direction. And at least part of that is because there are lots of companies who have decided to do what you suggest and not only pay their staff all the same (this isn't as much of a problem as what I mentioned earlier) but also to outreach into schools to educate young children that there are opportunities out there that they may not have thought of before." There you go again, everyone who disgrees with you is "uneducated" or if not that then it's "hate speech". I'd rather talk to people who can have sensible conversations if you don't mind. | |||
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" So you actually believe when you think woman wears no make up, she actually wears no make up? I am not saying every woman do wear make up, but it is so funny when I hear compliments how natural I do look and when I know how much effort preparations cost me to look that way I don't wear makeup to go out on dates and so forth. Like, I actually don't wear any makeup. None at all. Occasionally I wear it for very special events, but usually only when I'm wearing a full evening gown, cocktail outfit, or similar. Maybe it's because I'm quite careful about who I meet and so forth, but I've never had anyone reject me because I don't wear makeup. And I've never seen a lack of enthusiasm in clubs and that. Your words mirror those of the ladies I usually have a connection with x" I'm an advocate of make up for accentuation a punctuation , but as a daily cover up to my eye it is needless and to my eye often has what maybe the desired intention If lady however feels better that's fantastic but I can't change what my eye sees and my perception and one of my jobs is to be very particular about tone and colour match and texture . | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? Maybe because not everyone wants or is suited to run their own company? Or because they don't have the financial backing, or the experience, or there isn't a gap in the market? In any case, if we make 'if you're not actively dedicating your life/career to resolving a problem, then shut up about it' a rule, we'll all have to give up voicing the vast majority of our opinions... There's a difference between letting off steam on an issue and claiming there's a massive gap in the market that nobody seems to want to address. The most likely cause of the latter is that the gap isn't real. Do you understand why people who are suited to run their own company, do have the financial backing, or the experience, tend to earn more than those who don't? " How is paying your women employees equally to men a 'gap in the market', exactly? You might attract better calibre women employees by making it clear you give fair pay, but just paying better wages isn't a guarantee of success, or business would be easy. And yes, thank you Captain Patronising, I understand why some people get paid more than others. | |||
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"Loving that I’ve mentioned a reverse pay gap in the ministry of defence and it’s been swept under the rug. "Don't forget the reverse pay gap in modelling, porn and part time work generally  | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? Maybe because not everyone wants or is suited to run their own company? Or because they don't have the financial backing, or the experience, or there isn't a gap in the market? In any case, if we make 'if you're not actively dedicating your life/career to resolving a problem, then shut up about it' a rule, we'll all have to give up voicing the vast majority of our opinions... There's a difference between letting off steam on an issue and claiming there's a massive gap in the market that nobody seems to want to address. The most likely cause of the latter is that the gap isn't real. Do you understand why people who are suited to run their own company, do have the financial backing, or the experience, tend to earn more than those who don't? How is paying your women employees equally to men a 'gap in the market', exactly? You might attract better calibre women employees by making it clear you give fair pay, but just paying better wages isn't a guarantee of success, or business would be easy. And yes, thank you Captain Patronising, I understand why some people get paid more than others. " Well you asked and answered your own question. If there was a huge pool of oppressed women being underpaid and sexually harassed every day and you could offer them safe haven and equal pay then they would absolutely flock to you. Take any resource intensive industry and that company would smash it's competitors... | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? To be honest you sound like a person stood on an umbrella, complaining the rain is making them wet. So if woman likes her job it is perfectly OK she is treated worse and pay worse, and she should not speak about it? So no real answer then. On any level, do you understand why people who think they are underpaid but just complain about it, don't earn as much money as people who take actions like I've described? Okey, explain to me, just a simple dummy, what actions should I take if I am working as a surgeon in main London hospital, and earn less then my colleagues. Bit short of the money to take action in my hands and build my own hospital, but I am sure you can advise me on that? Well that's easy, take your employer to a tribunal and exercise your legal right to equal pay "He got paid more cosue he operates more. And I don't get enough operations couse I am a woman, and there is no way I can prove it in court, they will always have arguments to point out otherwise. I think you got very fairly good answers form Lucy Lewd and _hetalkingstove, nothing more for me to add, so I am outing myself from this discussion with you. Sometimes it is just good to think out of your own box, but I am not expecting too much | |||
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"Loving that I’ve mentioned a reverse pay gap in the ministry of defence and it’s been swept under the rug.
Don't forget the reverse pay gap in modelling, porn and part time work generally "Except, there's a problem with that. Modeling, porn, and part time work are jobs that women tend to be encouraged into (there aren't many modeling or porn careers for men). They have a short shelf life, and you'll often struggle to find employment afterwards because those careers have wrecked your future career prospects. So yes, high short term pay - but you're washed up by 25 and if you tell an office manager that you used to do hardcore porn for a living, they're not going to put you to the front of the queue for employment because of the sexist society that we live in. | |||
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"Loving that I’ve mentioned a reverse pay gap in the ministry of defence and it’s been swept under the rug. "Actually you mentioned that guys got well paid off for it - great for them, it is not always provable in court that gap exist. And OF COURSE woman and men should be treated equally, it is a basic. If they are not, it should be speak about and fight for a change. BTW - very interesting documentary on that issue - 'the red pill' About all those areas when man are mistreated. Documentary made by former feminist, who didn't really expecting that kind of journey. Highly recommended. | |||
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"Loving that I’ve mentioned a reverse pay gap in the ministry of defence and it’s been swept under the rug.
Don't forget the reverse pay gap in modelling, porn and part time work generally
Except, there's a problem with that. Modeling, porn, and part time work are jobs that women tend to be encouraged into (there aren't many modeling or porn careers for men).
They have a short shelf life, and you'll often struggle to find employment afterwards because those careers have wrecked your future career prospects.
So yes, high short term pay - but you're washed up by 25 and if you tell an office manager that you used to do hardcore porn for a living, they're not going to put you to the front of the queue for employment because of the sexist society that we live in."But you agree that it's wrong that on average, the top female clothes models get around 10x more than the top male clothes models, both for modelling clothes equally well. It's a grave injustice that you care about correcting? | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? Maybe because not everyone wants or is suited to run their own company? Or because they don't have the financial backing, or the experience, or there isn't a gap in the market? In any case, if we make 'if you're not actively dedicating your life/career to resolving a problem, then shut up about it' a rule, we'll all have to give up voicing the vast majority of our opinions... There's a difference between letting off steam on an issue and claiming there's a massive gap in the market that nobody seems to want to address. The most likely cause of the latter is that the gap isn't real. Do you understand why people who are suited to run their own company, do have the financial backing, or the experience, tend to earn more than those who don't? How is paying your women employees equally to men a 'gap in the market', exactly? You might attract better calibre women employees by making it clear you give fair pay, but just paying better wages isn't a guarantee of success, or business would be easy. And yes, thank you Captain Patronising, I understand why some people get paid more than others. Well you asked and answered your own question. If there was a huge pool of oppressed women being underpaid and sexually harassed every day and you could offer them safe haven and equal pay then they would absolutely flock to you. Take any resource intensive industry and that company would smash it's competitors... " What an incredibly simplistic and ideological view you have of this. It's not the case that every woman who criticizes the gender pay gap is feeling terribly oppressed and is desperate to escape their job. You understand that it's possible to do a job you love and still wish to change things about it? For example, women are suing Google for equal pay. Trying to change the culture of existing business is a perfectly legitimate way to go about addressing any wage gaps. | |||
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" But you agree that it's wrong that on average, the top female clothes models get around 10x more than the top male clothes models, both for modelling clothes equally well. It's a grave injustice that you care about correcting? " I prefer to look at medians and means rather than top salaries to be honest. Top salaries tend to be about more than just the work that people are doing, and also tend to hinge on celebrity status within the industry. FWIW, in the mid level of modeling (i.e. commercial stuff for clothes catalogues and that) the girls and the boys make about the same amount of money, and there's roughly equal call for men and women. It's down at the bottom end that things are massively swayed - where photographers will pay two hundred a day (woah, such a huge amount) to photograph women with their legs open but won't entertain photographing men even for free. | |||
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" One thing i really don't get with people who seem to genuinely believe in all this women being oppressed stuff... why not just start your own company that primarily employs women or form a worker cooperative that would ensure equal treatment? Maybe because not everyone wants or is suited to run their own company? Or because they don't have the financial backing, or the experience, or there isn't a gap in the market? In any case, if we make 'if you're not actively dedicating your life/career to resolving a problem, then shut up about it' a rule, we'll all have to give up voicing the vast majority of our opinions... There's a difference between letting off steam on an issue and claiming there's a massive gap in the market that nobody seems to want to address. The most likely cause of the latter is that the gap isn't real. Do you understand why people who are suited to run their own company, do have the financial backing, or the experience, tend to earn more than those who don't? How is paying your women employees equally to men a 'gap in the market', exactly? You might attract better calibre women employees by making it clear you give fair pay, but just paying better wages isn't a guarantee of success, or business would be easy. And yes, thank you Captain Patronising, I understand why some people get paid more than others. Well you asked and answered your own question. If there was a huge pool of oppressed women being underpaid and sexually harassed every day and you could offer them safe haven and equal pay then they would absolutely flock to you. Take any resource intensive industry and that company would smash it's competitors... What an incredibly simplistic and ideological view you have of this. It's not the case that every woman who criticizes the gender pay gap is feeling terribly oppressed and is desperate to escape their job. You understand that it's possible to do a job you love and still wish to change things about it? For example, women are suing Google for equal pay. Trying to change the culture of existing business is a perfectly legitimate way to go about addressing any wage gaps. " Scale matters. If you believe an 18% pay gap exists for equivalent work then yes there must be a lot of oppressed workers for that to occur. However, if you believe more sensibly that a 9% pay gap exists (ONS figures) because of different choices / options, such as the full time public sector staff being 67% female, then calling it a gender pay gap isn't actually very helpful because the gender is just a proxy. In fact, earnings released by the ONS and featured on the BBC today show a 20% earning gap for graduates depending on the wealth of your parents. So it seems to me that gender isn't the central issue here but obviously I'm unedcuated on the subject. | |||
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" because of different choices / options" That's the thing that matters. Choices / options are influenced by more than just ourselves. They are influenced by society. The gender pay gap isn't so much about cold hard cash, but about the way that society encourages people into different roles, and why those roles attract different money. | |||
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"With all this talk of gender pay gaps in the news and newspapers, how many of you women are willing to take me out for dinner and pay for the entire meal? and who would go the extra mile and buy me some flowers haha
I think many woman will be more then willing. Would be fair for you to pay in exchange pay for stockings, designer high heels, manicure, urban decay smoky eye pallet, foundation, scent to wear on night out. And many other things woman do to look sexy. "I'm sorry but that's prostitution you're describing. Why should a man pay for your time when you're not paying for his? Are you paying for his car, wardrobe, gym membership, self development and education, all his previous dates where he gained his knowledge and experience on how to entertain you, and all the other things that make him attractive to you? Why not? It's like you're promoting the idea that a man who pays is entitled to you like some slave he's purchased. Not sure that bodes well for gender equality. | |||
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"Do these studies into pay gaps take into account peoples private lives? Lots of women take career breaks after they've had kids. Some return on reduced hours or a year/s behind in career progression. Of course that doesn't apply to all women, but plenty. If there are gaps between people in exactly the same positions with exactly the same skills and experience then it is clearly very wrong." No, the point is that they don't. When paternity leave was improved the gender pay gap closed. It was good because men were able to shoulder some of the negatives effects of having children, i.e. having their hours reduced or their career stalled. | |||
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" because of different choices / options That's the thing that matters. Choices / options are influenced by more than just ourselves. They are influenced by society. The gender pay gap isn't so much about cold hard cash, but about the way that society encourages people into different roles, and why those roles attract different money." Well we're making progress. The thing is that there's no such thing as society, just a bunch of individuals, roughly half of whom are female. So just saying society is the problem doesn't help unless theres a reason why a large group of females appear to hate themselves? If you can talk specifics then we get somewhere. For example, women do get the higher burden of child care and therefore i do support more state funding childcare. | |||
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". If you believe an 18% pay gap exists for equivalent work then yes there must be a lot of oppressed workers for that to occur. " Why does 18% equal 'oppressed' ? Why doesn't it equal 'annoyed' or 'frustrated'? You're deliberately overdramatising the matter to suit your own conclusions. | |||
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"Do these studies into pay gaps take into account peoples private lives? Lots of women take career breaks after they've had kids. Some return on reduced hours or a year/s behind in career progression. Of course that doesn't apply to all women, but plenty. If there are gaps between people in exactly the same positions with exactly the same skills and experience then it is clearly very wrong. No, the point is that they don't. When paternity leave was improved the gender pay gap closed. It was good because men were able to shoulder some of the negatives effects of having children, i.e. having their hours reduced or their career stalled." So, do we know what if any gap exists if these career breaks are discounted? | |||
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" because of different choices / options That's the thing that matters. Choices / options are influenced by more than just ourselves. They are influenced by society. The gender pay gap isn't so much about cold hard cash, but about the way that society encourages people into different roles, and why those roles attract different money. Well we're making progress. The thing is that there's no such thing as society, just a bunch of individuals, roughly half of whom are female. So just saying society is the problem doesn't help unless theres a reason why a large group of females appear to hate themselves? If you can talk specifics then we get somewhere. For example, women do get the higher burden of child care and therefore i do support more state funding childcare. " Well, many of our societal problems (would you prefer I call them community problems?) are due to the fact that historically men have oppressed women quite heavily. For example, it was only pretty recently that women have been able to own land, go to university as a matter of course, or even vote to put people in government who might look out for their specific interests. There's also the bad science that made people believe women were intrinsically better school teachers, that men were better at banking and business, and other such incorrect assumptions. Those assumptions still affect us today, but things are slowly getting better too. So we're currently, in our community, in a period of flux and change where things are improving for women, but we're still seeing the legacy of thousands of years of women and men being forced into particular roles. It's not really that I hate myself, it's just that many men in the world over the previous few millennia have seemed to have really hated women to the point where they've treated them as property and not allowed them to have lives equal in status to their own. And unfortunately we're not rid of that legacy yet. | |||
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" The thing is that there's no such thing as society, just a bunch of individuals, roughly half of whom are female. So just saying society is the problem doesn't help unless theres a reason why a large group of females appear to hate themselves? " Maybe think about the amount of power women have had in society historically? The stereotypes around what women can and can't do that society holds? 'there's no such thing as society'. Dear oh dear. | |||
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" So, do we know what if any gap exists if these career breaks are discounted?" Yes, those gaps still do exist when smaller subsets are looked at. For example, a study was released recently that looked at male and female graduates. On average three years after graduation, women are paid about three thousand pounds less than men. Almost certainly because of the careers that they've gone into (men are statistically more likely to go into higher paying careers than women), but the gap still exists even at that low level before people have had a chance to start having babies. | |||
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" So, do we know what if any gap exists if these career breaks are discounted? Yes, those gaps still do exist when smaller subsets are looked at. For example, a study was released recently that looked at male and female graduates. On average three years after graduation, women are paid about three thousand pounds less than men. Almost certainly because of the careers that they've gone into (men are statistically more likely to go into higher paying careers than women), but the gap still exists even at that low level before people have had a chance to start having babies." It's also worth noting that a study was done a while back that gave evidence for the fact that some employers will pay men more or give them more opportunities for promotion because it is perceived that men are the breadwinners and therefore they deserve a steadier and better income. | |||
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". If you believe an 18% pay gap exists for equivalent work then yes there must be a lot of oppressed workers for that to occur. Why does 18% equal 'oppressed' ? Why doesn't it equal 'annoyed' or 'frustrated'? You're deliberately overdramatising the matter to suit your own conclusions. " Since i know you love arguing semantics and definitions: oppress verb past tense: oppressed; past participle: oppressed 1. keep (someone) in subjection and hardship, especially by the unjust exercise of authority. "a system which oppressed working people" Since paying someone 18% less because of their gender is illegal, it must be oppression. It is not possible for a small number of isolated cases that can't be dealt with in the legal system to make up such a big average. | |||
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" So, do we know what if any gap exists if these career breaks are discounted? Yes, those gaps still do exist when smaller subsets are looked at. For example, a study was released recently that looked at male and female graduates. On average three years after graduation, women are paid about three thousand pounds less than men. Almost certainly because of the careers that they've gone into (men are statistically more likely to go into higher paying careers than women), but the gap still exists even at that low level before people have had a chance to start having babies." But that's not a gap that can be blamed on an employer for example. Are you just talking about the career choices women tend to make vs those men tend to take, on average? I don't see any reasons today why a girl couldn't follow any career path she chose, and earn just the same as a man doing the same thing. | |||
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" I'm sorry but that's prostitution you're describing. Why should a man pay for your time when you're not paying for his? Are you paying for his car, wardrobe, gym membership, self development and education, all his previous dates where he gained his knowledge and experience on how to entertain you, and all the other things that make him attractive to you? Why not? It's like you're promoting the idea that a man who pays is entitled to you like some slave he's purchased. Not sure that bodes well for gender equality. " ... Is he paying for paying for my car, wardrobe, gym membership, self development and education, all my previous dates where I gained my knowledge? Why are you implying, that I don't have all that ? That is really offensive. (I was pointing out expenses we woman have, and you man, don't) My initial response was written as joke for a man asking "why I should I pay, you women complain about gender pay gap and so why don't pay in restaurants". If you care read more in this thread you would see my point is partnership. And that one who should pay for a dinner is that one who invites. That what savoir virere is saying. | |||
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"Loving that I’ve mentioned a reverse pay gap in the ministry of defence and it’s been swept under the rug.
Actually you mentioned that guys got well paid off for it - great for them, it is not always provable in court that gap exist.
."They did eventually get six years back pay.... they never saw the other thirteen. It is a shining example of why there should be more clarity so these differences are spotted sooner. | |||
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" The thing is that there's no such thing as society, just a bunch of individuals, roughly half of whom are female. So just saying society is the problem doesn't help unless theres a reason why a large group of females appear to hate themselves? Maybe think about the amount of power women have had in society historically? The stereotypes around what women can and can't do that society holds? 'there's no such thing as society'. Dear oh dear. " And now we see that people pushing the gender pay gap are usually fourth wave feminists who want to wrap it up in a large narrative of oppression. I have facts, you have ideology, the two are incompatible. | |||
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" For example, a study was released recently that looked at male and female graduates. On average three years after graduation, women are paid about three thousand pounds less than men. Almost certainly because of the careers that they've gone into (men are statistically more likely to go into higher paying careers than women), but the gap still exists even at that low level before people have had a chance to start having babies." Now the funny thing about studies is that they are highly specific. I've seen a competing one (solely london) where the same age group women make more than men. Go figure..... | |||
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" So, do we know what if any gap exists if these career breaks are discounted? Yes, those gaps still do exist when smaller subsets are looked at. For example, a study was released recently that looked at male and female graduates. On average three years after graduation, women are paid about three thousand pounds less than men. Almost certainly because of the careers that they've gone into (men are statistically more likely to go into higher paying careers than women), but the gap still exists even at that low level before people have had a chance to start having babies. But that's not a gap that can be blamed on an employer for example. Are you just talking about the career choices women tend to make vs those men tend to take, on average? I don't see any reasons today why a girl couldn't follow any career path she chose, and earn just the same as a man doing the same thing." Because of the patriarchy, society and other generic villans that we can't specifically identify or specifically deal with. | |||
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" And now we see that people pushing the gender pay gap are usually fourth wave feminists who want to wrap it up in a large narrative of oppression. I have facts, you have ideology, the two are incompatible. " Facts get us us closer to the truth but are virtually uselessly when trying to convince the already indoctrinated. It's very difficult for is to change our minds once grounded to an opinion. | |||
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" For example, a study was released recently that looked at male and female graduates. On average three years after graduation, women are paid about three thousand pounds less than men. Almost certainly because of the careers that they've gone into (men are statistically more likely to go into higher paying careers than women), but the gap still exists even at that low level before people have had a chance to start having babies. Now the funny thing about studies is that they are highly specific. I've seen a competing one (solely london) where the same age group women make more than men. Go figure..... " Women that don't have babies earn more than men on average and part time female workers earn more than part time male workers, ONS. | |||
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" Because of the patriarchy, society and other generic villans that we can't specifically identify or specifically deal with. " The but but but the ills of society argument almost always ignores that women make up 50% of society and of course have agency in shaping it. | |||
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" And now we see that people pushing the gender pay gap are usually fourth wave feminists who want to wrap it up in a large narrative of oppression. I have facts, you have ideology, the two are incompatible. Facts get us us closer to the truth but are virtually uselessly when trying to convince the already indoctrinated. It's very difficult for is to change our minds once grounded to an opinion. " See I'm highly libertarian and avoid saying the state should do very much beyond law, military and justice. But i can see the case for state funded child care to level the playing field and why we'd have a better country for it. But that's a specific policy with a specific aim rather than "let's burn down the patriarchy". | |||
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" So, do we know what if any gap exists if these career breaks are discounted? Yes, those gaps still do exist when smaller subsets are looked at. For example, a study was released recently that looked at male and female graduates. On average three years after graduation, women are paid about three thousand pounds less than men. Almost certainly because of the careers that they've gone into (men are statistically more likely to go into higher paying careers than women), but the gap still exists even at that low level before people have had a chance to start having babies. But that's not a gap that can be blamed on an employer for example. Are you just talking about the career choices women tend to make vs those men tend to take, on average? I don't see any reasons today why a girl couldn't follow any career path she chose, and earn just the same as a man doing the same thing." I don't think anyone here has blamed an employer - and that's certainly not the point of the gender pay gap. While theoretically it is possible to go into any career you want as a woman, we are socially cultured and encouraged into certain careers. My best friend at school was discouraged from being a doctor because that wasn't really a career for a woman according to our careers officer. We didn't have access to craft, design, tech A Levels at our school because it was a girls school and not enough girls were interested (because we're encouraged out of engineering options at a young age). Every time the debate about women as infantry soldiers comes up again in the press, the same old crap about 'women just don't want to do those jobs' is trotted out. These are all preconceived ideas based on old fashioned stereotypes of gender. And the gender pay gap is much more about measuring these kinds of influences on society than any particular cash difference. Why are women earning £3000 less than men three years after graduation? Perhaps because they are encouraged from a young age to go after particular careers. And those careers are not paid as well as the ones that men are encouraged to pursue. There is a theory, mind you, that if we encouraged men to be primary school teachers, then the wages for primary school teachers would raise, because mens careers tend to be better paid... and nobody is quite sure if this is cause or effect. | |||
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". There is, however a great over-representation of men in dangerous jobs. " Worth noting if it isn't obvious that these jobs pay "danger money" and go some way towards justifying a gap as being just how it is as a consequence of free choice rather than systematic oppression. All this boils down to how feminists want equality of outcomes and not equality of opportunity (which by and large we already have). | |||
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" And now we see that people pushing the gender pay gap are usually fourth wave feminists who want to wrap it up in a large narrative of oppression. I have facts, you have ideology, the two are incompatible. Facts get us us closer to the truth but are virtually uselessly when trying to convince the already indoctrinated. It's very difficult for is to change our minds once grounded to an opinion. See I'm highly libertarian and avoid saying the state should do very much beyond law, military and justice. But i can see the case for state funded child care to level the playing field and why we'd have a better country for it. But that's a specific policy with a specific aim rather than "let's burn down the patriarchy". " Personally I'd rather see more research into pregnancy to dispel the myths that women need to convalesce for long periods before and after giving birth. And I'd like to see better support (and less stigma) for men who choose to become the primary carer for their child, allowing women to pick up their careers again as soon as possible if they desire. Ideally I'd like to find a way to make it possible to return to a state where one income in a partnership is the norm - which would unfortunately require quite radical change in our society (mostly to do with house pricing or a citizens income). | |||
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". There is, however a great over-representation of men in dangerous jobs. Worth noting if it isn't obvious that these jobs pay "danger money" and go some way towards justifying a gap as being just how it is as a consequence of free choice rather than systematic oppression. " Fortunately times are changing and more women are finding themselves able to go into these often challenging careers, whereas previously they were inaccessible due to either institutional reasons or stigma. | |||
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". If you believe an 18% pay gap exists for equivalent work then yes there must be a lot of oppressed workers for that to occur. Why does 18% equal 'oppressed' ? Why doesn't it equal 'annoyed' or 'frustrated'? You're deliberately overdramatising the matter to suit your own conclusions. Since i know you love arguing semantics and definitions: oppress verb past tense: oppressed; past participle: oppressed 1. keep (someone) in subjection and hardship, especially by the unjust exercise of authority. "a system which oppressed working people" Since paying someone 18% less because of their gender is illegal, it must be oppression. It is not possible for a small number of isolated cases that can't be dealt with in the legal system to make up such a big average. " You're referring to the thread where you made your own distinction between two groups of people, and then got upset when I pointed out that you were conflating them. Hardly 'semantics', but feel free to think of it that way rather than face up to just being wrong. Anyway. That definition does not prove that an 18% pay gap is oppression. Everything that's illegal is not automatically oppression. And everyone who experiences a pay gap is not experiencing hardship. And I'm not even particularly arguing that it *isn't* oppression. The point is that demanding women leave their jobs and start their own businesses, and then when they don't declaring 'well there can't be a problem then', is just silly, frankly. | |||
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" And now we see that people pushing the gender pay gap are usually fourth wave feminists who want to wrap it up in a large narrative of oppression. I have facts, you have ideology, the two are incompatible. Facts get us us closer to the truth but are virtually uselessly when trying to convince the already indoctrinated. It's very difficult for is to change our minds once grounded to an opinion. See I'm highly libertarian and avoid saying the state should do very much beyond law, military and justice. But i can see the case for state funded child care to level the playing field and why we'd have a better country for it. But that's a specific policy with a specific aim rather than "let's burn down the patriarchy". Personally I'd rather see more research into pregnancy to dispel the myths that women need to convalesce for long periods before and after giving birth. And I'd like to see better support (and less stigma) for men who choose to become the primary carer for their child, allowing women to pick up their careers again as soon as possible if they desire. Ideally I'd like to find a way to make it possible to return to a state where one income in a partnership is the norm - which would unfortunately require quite radical change in our society (mostly to do with house pricing or a citizens income)." Well there are some interesting ideas but we'd need another thread to go through them properly. Start one on the 'one income household', that sounds interesting... | |||
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"You shouldn't be making yourself look good for men. You should do it for you. And yes I am, it's a small issue, but just because it's a small issue doesn't mean you should disregard it. Should we only concentrate on major issues and forget the little stuff? Where did I say I make myself look good for man? But if you choose to take out woman for dinner, because you love how she looks (oh yeas, now it is time for you to say that you care only about personality) that it is perfectly justifiable for you to pay for it, especially if you really care so much about fairness. (And not mentioning, that person who invites, should pay) And no, gender pay gap is no small issue - it is big issue. And even man degrading it to small issue is big issue. I take it you work in politics as you have twisted everything I said lol either that or there has been a misunderstanding somewhere along the line. And honestly I know there are gaps between tv and film personalities but what actually are examples of jobs where women get paid less than men for the same hours worked with same qualifications and experience? what does smokey eye shadow do? " Im wondering that too lol | |||
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" And now we see that people pushing the gender pay gap are usually fourth wave feminists who want to wrap it up in a large narrative of oppression. I have facts, you have ideology, the two are incompatible. " It's funny - plenty of second wave feminism has facts. And also deals with oppression. Indeed, many of the prominent second wave feminists have given whole talks and lectures on the subject of things like the gender pay gap being the result of patriarchal society. | |||
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" The thing is that there's no such thing as society, just a bunch of individuals, roughly half of whom are female. So just saying society is the problem doesn't help unless theres a reason why a large group of females appear to hate themselves? Maybe think about the amount of power women have had in society historically? The stereotypes around what women can and can't do that society holds? 'there's no such thing as society'. Dear oh dear. And now we see that people pushing the gender pay gap are usually fourth wave feminists who want to wrap it up in a large narrative of oppression. I have facts, you have ideology, the two are incompatible. " Well, it's a fact that women have historically held less power than men. It's a fact that society has stereotypes around gender roles. So feel free to define it that way if you like, but all you mean by 'I have facts, you have ideology' is 'I'm right and you're wrong'. | |||
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"@_ucy lewd 1. Society my arse... Are you that easily influenced..... Where are the independent (of mind) women? 2. That 3k thing is false " 1. Yes, as a child I was very easily influenced. In my teenage years too. And my early twenties. Unfortunately that was a big chunk of my life already gone where I'd been told that I wasn't suitable for particular jobs or careers because of my gender. 2. It isn't. It was part of a peer reviewed study that came out recently. | |||
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". If you believe an 18% pay gap exists for equivalent work then yes there must be a lot of oppressed workers for that to occur. Why does 18% equal 'oppressed' ? Why doesn't it equal 'annoyed' or 'frustrated'? You're deliberately overdramatising the matter to suit your own conclusions. Since i know you love arguing semantics and definitions: oppress verb past tense: oppressed; past participle: oppressed 1. keep (someone) in subjection and hardship, especially by the unjust exercise of authority. "a system which oppressed working people" Since paying someone 18% less because of their gender is illegal, it must be oppression. It is not possible for a small number of isolated cases that can't be dealt with in the legal system to make up such a big average. You're referring to the thread where you made your own distinction between two groups of people, and then got upset when I pointed out that you were conflating them. Hardly 'semantics', but feel free to think of it that way rather than face up to just being wrong. Anyway. That definition does not prove that an 18% pay gap is oppression. Everything that's illegal is not automatically oppression. And everyone who experiences a pay gap is not experiencing hardship. And I'm not even particularly arguing that it *isn't* oppression. The point is that demanding women leave their jobs and start their own businesses, and then when they don't declaring 'well there can't be a problem then', is just silly, frankly. " And another misquote and attempt at slight of hand. Worker cooperatives do not require them to leave their jobs. | |||
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"Perhaps women tend to choose lower paid work to fit around family. I remember so many single mums outside the school gates telling me they couldn’t work because they had kids. At the time my kids were 4 and 7 and I quit my job in the navy to fit my work around them. I had no family near to help so I reinvented myself as self employed. Talked my way into jobs and swiftly learned as I went. My house was immaculate. My kids were happy, well fed, turned out smartly and we had a fantastic time together. " It's possible but the ONS figures today show that girls are picking university subjects that have lower pay prospects, which is where the £3k figure comes from. That's happening before they have children. But that is just graduates. | |||
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" I'm sorry but that's prostitution you're describing. Why should a man pay for your time when you're not paying for his? Are you paying for his car, wardrobe, gym membership, self development and education, all his previous dates where he gained his knowledge and experience on how to entertain you, and all the other things that make him attractive to you? Why not? It's like you're promoting the idea that a man who pays is entitled to you like some slave he's purchased. Not sure that bodes well for gender equality. ... Is he paying for paying for my car, wardrobe, gym membership, self development and education, all my previous dates where I gained my knowledge." Well it sounds like you believe that he should, so would I be wrong to assume that he is? " Why are you implying that I don't have all that? That is really offensive." I'm implying that you DO have all of that and so do men; and that it's ridiculous for either to pay for the other's belongings. Why are you implying that men don't have grooming and upkeep to pay for too? That is really offensive. "(I was pointing out expenses we woman have, and you man, don't)" Precisely, and I'm pointing out that it should stay that way. Your expenses are not ours! Applause! " My initial response was written as joke for a man asking "why I should I pay, you women complain about gender pay gap and so why don't pay in restaurants". If you care read more in this thread you would see my point is partnership." Why didn't you just say that? Gosh, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Just say it was a joke
"And that one who should pay for a dinner is that one who invites. That what savoir virere is saying. " I agree with that! | |||
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" The point is that demanding women leave their jobs and start their own businesses, and then when they don't declaring 'well there can't be a problem then', is just silly, frankly. And another misquote and attempt at slight of hand. Worker cooperatives do not require them to leave their jobs. "Good grief, and you accuse me of semantics. OK, they don't have to leave their jobs. For you to take when seriously on the subject of the pay gap, they "only" have to start their own business regardless of whether or not they have all the tools in place for it or even the desire to do it. | |||
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"Precisely, and I'm pointing out that it should stay that way. Your expenses are not ours! Applause! " So, I was poiniting out woman have waaaay more expenses when talking about sexy look. So if OP care so much about equality, he can pay for dinner. Applause! " "My initial response was written as joke for a man asking "why I should I pay, you women complain about gender pay gap and so why don't pay in restaurants If you care read more in this thread you would see my point is partnership." Why didn't you just say that?" Well ... I did? I was just explaining you, as I am trying to do it again, that if you read the whole thread, you would read my point written very clearly and not jokingly. | |||
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" choices women tend to make vs those men tend to take, on average? I don't see any reasons today why a girl couldn't follow any career path she chose, and earn just the same as a man doing the same thing. I don't think anyone here has blamed an employer - and that's certainly not the point of the gender pay gap. While theoretically it is possible to go into any career you want as a woman, we are socially cultured and encouraged into certain careers. My best friend at school was discouraged from being a doctor because that wasn't really a career for a woman according to our careers officer. We didn't have access to craft, design, tech A Levels at our school because it was a girls school and not enough girls were interested (because we're encouraged out of engineering options at a young age). " Yes, but this isn't 1972 now. They are screaming out for girls to do STEM subjects. There are more female gp's at our surgery then male ones. I think if a careers officer made that kind of comment these days, they be rightly lynched. I don't see 'society' pushing girls into cleaning jobs and the boys into medicine. There might be some residual imbalance from the old days in certain professions, but I see all options open to girls at school / uni. | |||
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"Perhaps women tend to choose lower paid work to fit around family. I remember so many single mums outside the school gates telling me they couldn’t work because they had kids. At the time my kids were 4 and 7 and I quit my job in the navy to fit my work around them. I had no family near to help so I reinvented myself as self employed. Talked my way into jobs and swiftly learned as I went. My house was immaculate. My kids were happy, well fed, turned out smartly and we had a fantastic time together. " Which area of employment was it, if you don't mind me asking. | |||
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" Yes, but this isn't 1972 now. They are screaming out for girls to do STEM subjects. There are more female gp's at our surgery then male ones. I think if a careers officer made that kind of comment these days, they be rightly lynched. I don't see 'society' pushing girls into cleaning jobs and the boys into medicine. There might be some residual imbalance from the old days in certain professions, but I see all options open to girls at school / uni." I finished school in 2005. You're right, it wasn't 1972. | |||
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"If you're a feminist you expect the woman to offer to pay the whole bill, and also you are okay with her paying the whole bill. If youre a feminist you also expect the woman to ask for the raise herself, like men have to." If you're a feminist, you find ways to try and change the way women are cultured to not ask for pay rises, recognising that it's not as simple as 'just ask for one' because human brains and human societies are far more complicated. | |||
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" The point is that demanding women leave their jobs and start their own businesses, and then when they don't declaring 'well there can't be a problem then', is just silly, frankly. And another misquote and attempt at slight of hand. Worker cooperatives do not require them to leave their jobs.
Good grief, and you accuse me of semantics.
OK, they don't have to leave their jobs. For you to take when seriously on the subject of the pay gap, they "only" have to start their own business regardless of whether or not they have all the tools in place for it or even the desire to do it.
"In the companies i have worked, the best way to get a pay rise was to be mobile. Meaning that management had a budget of x for pay rises to be distributed between the workers under their control. There was an excellent correlation between the pay rises and other job opportunities people had. In other words, there were people in high demand who got good pay and a bunch of whinge bags who felt they should have been paid more but didn't have the balls to move to another company / wouldn't have been offered a job by another company. Furthermore the well paid people were typically offered a ~10% pay rise to jump ship which distorted their perception of their pay. In other words 98% of workers believed they were underpaid. In reality about 10% were. I'm not saying my experience represents the entire economy, but in google i think ~40% of women said they felt underpaid but what was less reported was that ~30% of men felt the same, which again comes back to gender not explaining much of the picture. Personally i like my women to have balls. | |||
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"If you're a feminist you expect the woman to offer to pay the whole bill, and also you are okay with her paying the whole bill. If youre a feminist you also expect the woman to ask for the raise herself, like men have to. If you're a feminist, you find ways to try and change the way women are cultured to not ask for pay rises, recognising that it's not as simple as 'just ask for one' because human brains and human societies are far more complicated." What do you think of the paper by artz, goodall and oswald (2016) called "do women ask"? That found, and i quote: "the women-don't-ask account is incorrect... women do ask. However, women do not get." | |||
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"If you're a feminist, you find ways to try and change the way women are cultured to not ask for pay rises, recognising that it's not as simple as 'just ask for one' because human brains and human societies are far more complicated." Men are not conditioned to ask for a raise either, thats why loads of men would be shocked to find out the guy sitting beside them gets more. Its why guys dont talk about their wages with anyone, cause the ones that ask for more know not everyone gets the raise. There is absolutley no evidence that women get paid any less than men in modern jobs and its pretty much fact that the pay gap in offices is due to historice gender difference. If you pick a random woman in the same office as a random guy, they get paid the same. About 4 or 5 guys have went in, played hardball and got more, and there are more men in the managers position so the overall it says they get more, but like for like they dont. There is no culture in any job I have been in where a woman can not ask for more money. | |||
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"If you're a feminist, you find ways to try and change the way women are cultured to not ask for pay rises, recognising that it's not as simple as 'just ask for one' because human brains and human societies are far more complicated. Men are not conditioned to ask for a raise either, thats why loads of men would be shocked to find out the guy sitting beside them gets more. Its why guys dont talk about their wages with anyone, cause the ones that ask for more know not everyone gets the raise. There is absolutley no evidence that women get paid any less than men in modern jobs and its pretty much fact that the pay gap in offices is due to historice gender difference. If you pick a random woman in the same office as a random guy, they get paid the same. About 4 or 5 guys have went in, played hardball and got more, and there are more men in the managers position so the overall it says they get more, but like for like they dont. There is no culture in any job I have been in where a woman can not ask for more money." Personally I've worked with about 20% of the companies in the FTSE 100 and none of them allow you to "ask" for a pay rise. Everyone has an annual pay review and there is a divisional budget to be distributed each year. Knocking on your managers door outside of this process would achieve nothing unless you were changing roles or about to resign. | |||
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" Personally i like my women to have balls. " You need to be posting in the meets section for TV/TS, not in the lounge... | |||
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" Personally i like my women to have balls. You need to be posting in the meets section for TV/TS, not in the lounge... "I like metaphorical balls and literal balls. 2 of my all time top 10 meets have been with ladyboys. | |||
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"Perhaps women tend to choose lower paid work to fit around family. I remember so many single mums outside the school gates telling me they couldn’t work because they had kids. At the time my kids were 4 and 7 and I quit my job in the navy to fit my work around them. I had no family near to help so I reinvented myself as self employed. Talked my way into jobs and swiftly learned as I went. My house was immaculate. My kids were happy, well fed, turned out smartly and we had a fantastic time together. Which area of employment was it, if you don't mind me asking." I went from being a supervisor on aircraft engineering to sticking tiles on walls and fitting toilets. | |||
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" Personally i like my women to have balls. You need to be posting in the meets section for TV/TS, not in the lounge... " | |||
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"If you're a feminist you expect the woman to offer to pay the whole bill, and also you are okay with her paying the whole bill. If youre a feminist you also expect the woman to ask for the raise herself, like men have to. If you're a feminist, you find ways to try and change the way women are cultured to not ask for pay rises, recognising that it's not as simple as 'just ask for one' because human brains and human societies are far more complicated. What do you think of the paper by artz, goodall and oswald (2016) called "do women ask"? That found, and i quote: "the women-don't-ask account is incorrect... women do ask. However, women do not get."" I think it's a different theory - I'm not familiar enough with economics to fully understand many of the claims in the paper. However what I would say is that it doesn't appear to be a peer reviewed paper, and that it has been published already (it was written only a year ago) does suggest that it would not stand up to scrutiny required in order to publish in a respected journal. | |||
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"If you're a feminist you expect the woman to offer to pay the whole bill, and also you are okay with her paying the whole bill. If youre a feminist you also expect the woman to ask for the raise herself, like men have to. If you're a feminist, you find ways to try and change the way women are cultured to not ask for pay rises, recognising that it's not as simple as 'just ask for one' because human brains and human societies are far more complicated. What do you think of the paper by artz, goodall and oswald (2016) called "do women ask"? That found, and i quote: "the women-don't-ask account is incorrect... women do ask. However, women do not get." I think it's a different theory - I'm not familiar enough with economics to fully understand many of the claims in the paper. However what I would say is that it doesn't appear to be a peer reviewed paper, and that it has been published already (it was written only a year ago) does suggest that it would not stand up to scrutiny required in order to publish in a respected journal." Ok but how about my comments above regarding the fact that most companies have a standardised approach to pay negotiations for everyone, annually, and don't do ad hoc individual negotiations? | |||
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