FabSwingers.com forum: Deception?

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

This is inspired by a couple of recent threads. I'd be interested in others opinions.

Imagine the scene. A guy sees a woman that he fancies,in a bar,a restaurant,a café.Anywhere it would be perfectly normal to approach a stranger.

They get chatting and find there is mutual attraction. one thing leads to another and they end up entwined in a night of passion.

In the morning,they part and never see each other again.

At no point did the woman mention that she had transitioned (physically and legally) several years ago.The subject just never came up and it never occurred to the guy to ask.

They both fancied each other despite having little knowledge of each others histories and they were both very happy with everything that went on that night.

Has the man been deceived in any way at all?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No. She's a woman. Whatever she was before is irrelevant.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not in my eyes, the man didn’t know any different, they both had a good time and parted company happy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No. She's a woman. Whatever she was before is irrelevant. "

exactly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If I never knew she used to be a man, how would I know if I've been deceived?

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By *annooWoman
over a year ago

Hastings

no because at that point in time its about the there and then...history was not discussed and to be honest why does he need to know. as far as he is concerned he was with a woman

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By *allySlinkyWoman
over a year ago

Leeds

The man was attracted to the person he met and willingly had sex. No deception at all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How would you feel if it happened to you?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If I never knew she used to be a man, how would I know if I've been deceived? "

How about if you found out at a later date? Would you feel you had been deceived?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How would you feel if it happened to you?"

It wouldn't bother me. It would go against my fwb policy but nothing more.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"How would you feel if it happened to you?"

I may, or may not, be thinking from personal experience.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If I never knew she used to be a man, how would I know if I've been deceived?

How about if you found out at a later date? Would you feel you had been deceived?"

Oh, in that case, yes I would feel deceived

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If I never knew she used to be a man, how would I know if I've been deceived?

How about if you found out at a later date? Would you feel you had been deceived?

Oh, in that case, yes I would feel deceived"

Who would have deceived you?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How would you feel if it happened to you?

I may, or may not, be thinking from personal experience."

No shit

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?

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By *hatYorkLadMan
over a year ago

York

If he honestly didn't know and he's unlikely to ever find out then no harm done, they had fun and that's the end of it. It could potentially mess the guy up psychologically for life if he did find out later though and it was something that he had an issue with.

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East

The man assumed he was having sex with a woman. He wasn't. He will have assumed she was. As long as he wasn't told she was then no deception occurred.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If I never knew she used to be a man, how would I know if I've been deceived?

How about if you found out at a later date? Would you feel you had been deceived?

Oh, in that case, yes I would feel deceived

Who would have deceived you?"

The person I had sex with.

But first of all, I would like to say I have no issues with people men who are now women or women who are now men, at all.

But being with a woman who used to be a man isn't for me and I imagine its not for a lot of men ether. I think its one of them things that should be out in the open before anything happens.

I also don't like sleeping with married women so if I slept with a woman then found out she was married I would feel the same way

It's nothing to with being trans specifically, its just something I think should be shared in case the man or woman also isn't into it.

And if a man was to say to every woman who shown interest in him "did you used to be a man", we would never have sex again

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East

"If I never knew she used to be a man, how would I know if I've been deceived?

How about if you found out at a later date? Would you feel you had been deceived?"

Yes.

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?"

Not guilty. She never said she was a woman.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No deception because she is a woman.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?"

Oh that's a good question

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Who's the onus on? The man to ask or the woman to tell?

Just because he assumed, doesn't make her in the wrong.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?

Not guilty. She never said she was a woman."

But,based on your previous answer,you would have considred her to be pretending to be a woman.Would that not be deception?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 15/11/17 16:46:32]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is it, in any essence, different to say a married man not mentioning his wife before hopping into bed with a stranger?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Just to be clear,they had sex with the lights on,in a variety of positions,including oral.

He,at no point,suspected that the pussy that he was enjoying the feel and taste of,,,,used to be a different shape,so he never thought he had reason to ask.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Is it, in any essence, different to say a married man not mentioning his wife before hopping into bed with a stranger?

Could he be considered guilty of a crime as well? I don't think so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Of course he’s been deceived! He just doesn’t know it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Of course he’s been deceived! He just doesn’t know it. "

How has he been deceived? He saw someone he fancied and just went for it. She may have been dressed provocatively but,as we are all aware,that is no excuse for anything.

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?

Not guilty. She never said she was a woman.

But,based on your previous answer,you would have considred her to be pretending to be a woman.Would that not be deception?"

Legally she is a woman. She lives as a woman. As i said on the other thread its not a legal issue anyway. I think it's more of a courtesy matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?"

It would be sexual assault not R ape a woman can't be charged with r ape because the law is phallocentric. A woman would only be charged with that if she held a person down for another person to be penetrated.

A guy can protect himself from stds by wearing a condom. If he wanted to go through life without ever sleeping with a post op trans gender person then yes he has been deceived by the lack of disclosure.

If this is a real case then you really shouldn't be talking about it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?

Not guilty. She never said she was a woman.

But,based on your previous answer,you would have considred her to be pretending to be a woman.Would that not be deception?

Legally she is a woman. She lives as a woman. As i said on the other thread its not a legal issue anyway. I think it's more of a courtesy matter."

They didn't exchange birth certificates or drivers licenses.They could both have easily given false names or not mentioned their marital status. They don't know anything about how each other lives.

They just fancied each other at that moment.

There may be something in his medical history that may have changed her feelings towards him. Should they have disclosed everything in their past?

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East

"If he honestly didn't know and he's unlikely to ever find out then no harm done, they had fun and that's the end of it. It could potentially mess the guy up psychologically for life if he did find out later though and it was something that he had an issue with."

This is a good point. The psychological aspect of a person going through the trans process is quite major. It's not unreasonsble to extend the same sympathy to anyone who might have sexual relations with them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?"

Not guilty. She is legally a woman and behaved as such.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Add another twist...

What if they got on so well they started a relationship and then got married.

A month/year later he found out the woman he married was born a man.

Has he been deceived?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?"

I can't see that allefed deception would be grounds for such a charge?

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

Yeah he has been.

She is a woman, but he has the right to think changing gender is wrong, and he has a right to believe even if science disagrees with him, that she is a man.

We are not the thought police, people are allowed have different opinions. Some people will think gay sex is wrong, some will think straight sex is wrong, some will think changing gender is wrong.

Who are we to force our belief that it is not wrong on someone, and hide it from them?

I'm 100% against someone deciding for me what is right and wrong.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?

If this is a real case then you really shouldn't be talking about it. "

To get a conviction,would the CPS not have to prove that he had made it clear that he didn't want to sleep with a trans woman? As I said,the subject never came up.

(Not an ongoing case,,,purely hypothetical).

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?

Not guilty. She never said she was a woman.

But,based on your previous answer,you would have considred her to be pretending to be a woman.Would that not be deception?

Legally she is a woman. She lives as a woman. As i said on the other thread its not a legal issue anyway. I think it's more of a courtesy matter.

They didn't exchange birth certificates or drivers licenses.They could both have easily given false names or not mentioned their marital status. They don't know anything about how each other lives.

They just fancied each other at that moment.

There may be something in his medical history that may have changed her feelings towards him. Should they have disclosed everything in their past? "

Of course not everything. Being trans or being married I would say yes. Legally neither but out of courtesy yes. Medical issues would depend on what they are. Both legally and out of courtesy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No deception

She was at the time a woman

If however the person was still transitioning then obviously issues Could have arisen but once through transition they ARE female end of

Jane x

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?

Not guilty. She never said she was a woman.

But,based on your previous answer,you would have considred her to be pretending to be a woman.Would that not be deception?

Legally she is a woman. She lives as a woman. As i said on the other thread its not a legal issue anyway. I think it's more of a courtesy matter.

They didn't exchange birth certificates or drivers licenses.They could both have easily given false names or not mentioned their marital status. They don't know anything about how each other lives.

They just fancied each other at that moment.

There may be something in his medical history that may have changed her feelings towards him. Should they have disclosed everything in their past?

Of course not everything. Being trans or being married I would say yes. Legally neither but out of courtesy yes. Medical issues would depend on what they are. Both legally and out of courtesy."

Where does one draw the line on disclosure? lot's of things could shape peoples opinions about each other. Being trans or being married are just two of them.

Do either of those facts really affect the validity of the consent given by both parties?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Correct me if I have this wrong.

The persons gender is female, but the biological sex of the person is still a man right

So he's basically been deceived into sleeping with someone that goes against his sexuality.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"No deception

She was at the time a woman

If however the person was still transitioning then obviously issues Could have arisen but once through transition they ARE female end of

Jane x"

Pre-surgery,there's quite a good chance that he would have noticed at some point.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course he’s been deceived! He just doesn’t know it.

How has he been deceived? He saw someone he fancied and just went for it. She may have been dressed provocatively but,as we are all aware,that is no excuse for anything."

Give or take... the number of trans people in the world population is less than 0.5%. And an even smaller figure for post-op. It’s entirely reasonable for him to assume the person was a woman.

Let’s say... hypothetically. They got on really well, decided to pursue a serious relationship and he was never told. Is he still not being deceived? What about if they get married... but he never asks...and would like to start a family... with someone who has no womb? Is this point where we might agree he’s been deceived?!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Correct me if I have this wrong.

The persons gender is female, but the biological sex of the person is still a man right

So he's basically been deceived into sleeping with someone that goes against his sexuality."

Could you define 'biological sex' please?

She is the right shape for him,with curves and openings in all the right places.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 15/11/17 17:11:48]

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"Pre-surgery,there's quite a good chance that he would have noticed at some point."

Well that case has already gone to court, a woman pretending to be a man had sex with another woman 10 times before she found out she was a woman. The courts decided that she didnt consent, and She got 8 years in jail (uk case)

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?

Not guilty. She never said she was a woman.

But,based on your previous answer,you would have considred her to be pretending to be a woman.Would that not be deception?

Legally she is a woman. She lives as a woman. As i said on the other thread its not a legal issue anyway. I think it's more of a courtesy matter.

They didn't exchange birth certificates or drivers licenses.They could both have easily given false names or not mentioned their marital status. They don't know anything about how each other lives.

They just fancied each other at that moment.

There may be something in his medical history that may have changed her feelings towards him. Should they have disclosed everything in their past?

Of course not everything. Being trans or being married I would say yes. Legally neither but out of courtesy yes. Medical issues would depend on what they are. Both legally and out of courtesy.

Where does one draw the line on disclosure? lot's of things could shape peoples opinions about each other. Being trans or being married are just two of them.

Do either of those facts really affect the validity of the consent given by both parties?"

Consent is not at question here. Hence my not guilty of r**e on the grounds of consent by deception. Verdict.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd like to introduce another element to the story,if I may.

Imagine you are on jury service and this is the basis of a case you are hearing. The woman is charged with r**e,on the grounds that she obtained consent by deception.

Guilty or Not Guilty?

If this is a real case then you really shouldn't be talking about it.

To get a conviction,would the CPS not have to prove that he had made it clear that he didn't want to sleep with a trans woman? As I said,the subject never came up.

(Not an ongoing case,,,purely hypothetical)."

They wouldn't have to prove anything. Non disclosure of gender is a breach of the sexual offences act and takes away that sexual partners right to consent.

I bet this is a massive grey area in law cos on one hand you have the tg persons human rights and privacy and on the other hand any person they have sex with should have the right to chose if they want to have sex with someone that anatomically used to be a man. It could mess that person up if they find out about it afterwards.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Correct me if I have this wrong.

The persons gender is female, but the biological sex of the person is still a man right

So he's basically been deceived into sleeping with someone that goes against his sexuality.

Could you define 'biological sex' please?

She is the right shape for him,with curves and openings in all the right places."

The sex that you’re assigned by a doctor at birth based on the genitals you’re born with and the chromosomes you have

I'm not an expert, so feel free to correct me.

But I would say that surgery and hormone treatment doesn't change your chromosomes

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Of course he’s been deceived! He just doesn’t know it.

How has he been deceived? He saw someone he fancied and just went for it. She may have been dressed provocatively but,as we are all aware,that is no excuse for anything.

Give or take... the number of trans people in the world population is less than 0.5%. And an even smaller figure for post-op. It’s entirely reasonable for him to assume the person was a woman.

It would be very reasonable for anyone entering into a long term relationship to discuss those matters,having children etc.

But, if they never discuss it,he never asks and she has not specifically told him something that is not true,has she really deceived him.

She may reasonably assume that he twigged from the first minute but it just didn't matter to him. He never mentioned his attitude towards trans people either.

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East

"Correct me if I have this wrong.

The persons gender is female, but the biological sex of the person is still a man right

So he's basically been deceived into sleeping with someone that goes against his sexuality.

Could you define 'biological sex' please?

She is the right shape for him,with curves and openings in all the right places."

He wants to sleep with a person who was born a woman and stayed a woman, not a person who became one later in life. As discussed above that is psychologically important to him.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Correct me if I have this wrong.

The persons gender is female, but the biological sex of the person is still a man right

So he's basically been deceived into sleeping with someone that goes against his sexuality.

Could you define 'biological sex' please?

She is the right shape for him,with curves and openings in all the right places.

The sex that you’re assigned by a doctor at birth based on the genitals you’re born with and the chromosomes you have

I'm not an expert, so feel free to correct me.

But I would say that surgery and hormone treatment doesn't change your chromosomes"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How would you feel if it happened to you?"

Shocked but not shocked, of that makes sense? Fabs not your usual bag of onions x

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"They wouldn't have to prove anything. Non disclosure of gender is a breach of the sexual offences act and takes away that sexual partners right to consent."

The law will see them as a woman though. Once you fully transition your gender is changed legally. This would significantly narrow your scope for legal action, unless they actually said "no i was never a man", they didn't actually lie to you at all according to the law.

But that does not mean its not deceptive. It's just highly likely the courts would not be interested in the case.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Correct me if I have this wrong.

The persons gender is female, but the biological sex of the person is still a man right

So he's basically been deceived into sleeping with someone that goes against his sexuality.

Could you define 'biological sex' please?

She is the right shape for him,with curves and openings in all the right places.

The sex that you’re assigned by a doctor at birth based on the genitals you’re born with and the chromosomes you have

I'm not an expert, so feel free to correct me.

But I would say that surgery and hormone treatment doesn't change your chromosomes"

Has anyone ever had a chromosome check? As far as I know,it is a difficult and expensive procedure involving taking samples of bone marrow. Not really the sort of thing that gets discussed at a first meeting. I would say chromosomes and opinions of doctors in the distant past are of much less relevance than the situation at the time.

I think a lot of trans women would say that the doctor who made that first pronouncement at birth was mistaken.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No. She's a woman. Whatever she was before is irrelevant.

exactly."

Agreed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They wouldn't have to prove anything. Non disclosure of gender is a breach of the sexual offences act and takes away that sexual partners right to consent.

But that does not mean its not deceptive. It's just highly likely the courts would not be interested in the case.

If it messed a guy up so much psychologically that he ended up taking his own life and then his family took it to the high court I'm sure they would do something about it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course he’s been deceived! He just doesn’t know it.

How has he been deceived? He saw someone he fancied and just went for it. She may have been dressed provocatively but,as we are all aware,that is no excuse for anything.

Give or take... the number of trans people in the world population is less than 0.5%. And an even smaller figure for post-op. It’s entirely reasonable for him to assume the person was a woman.

It would be very reasonable for anyone entering into a long term relationship to discuss those matters,having children etc.

But, if they never discuss it,he never asks and she has not specifically told him something that is not true,has she really deceived him.

She may reasonably assume that he twigged from the first minute but it just didn't matter to him. He never mentioned his attitude towards trans people either."

So.... if it’s short term deception it’s okay/permissible. .. but if you’re decieved in a long term relationship.. that’s wrong or inconceivable?!?!?!

A lie isn’t just saying the opposite of the truth, it’s also giving a whole truth, and there is also lying by omission...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex."

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 15/11/17 17:26:33]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I totally agree with you its just like if your born a woman and change into a guy your still a woman.

I have nothing against transgender people but its just the truth.

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By *rs T and HubbyCouple
over a year ago

somewhere north of the border..

Not guilty and No deception..

Did he ask NO...

Was he lies to NO..

Did she ask his health status..She could also have been deceived .....when we act in the moment we take risks and they both done that...it was an impulsive meet and both acted as adults.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Correct me if I have this wrong.

The persons gender is female, but the biological sex of the person is still a man right

So he's basically been deceived into sleeping with someone that goes against his sexuality.

Could you define 'biological sex' please?

She is the right shape for him,with curves and openings in all the right places.

The sex that you’re assigned by a doctor at birth based on the genitals you’re born with and the chromosomes you have

I'm not an expert, so feel free to correct me.

But I would say that surgery and hormone treatment doesn't change your chromosomes

I think a lot of trans women would say that the doctor who made that first pronouncement at birth was mistaken."

I would say chromosomes are very relevant to determining your sex.

Saying the doctor is mistaken is just crazy to me. Even if you feel you are a woman trapped in a mans body, it is still a mans body. Its basic biology

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No. She's a woman. Whatever she was before is irrelevant.

exactly.

Agreed. "

I don't understand people who say hes a she .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course he’s been deceived! He just doesn’t know it.

How has he been deceived? He saw someone he fancied and just went for it. She may have been dressed provocatively but,as we are all aware,that is no excuse for anything.

Give or take... the number of trans people in the world population is less than 0.5%. And an even smaller figure for post-op. It’s entirely reasonable for him to assume the person was a woman.

It would be very reasonable for anyone entering into a long term relationship to discuss those matters,having children etc.

But, if they never discuss it,he never asks and she has not specifically told him something that is not true,has she really deceived him.

She may reasonably assume that he twigged from the first minute but it just didn't matter to him. He never mentioned his attitude towards trans people either.

So.... if it’s short term deception it’s okay/permissible. .. but if you’re decieved in a long term relationship.. that’s wrong or inconceivable?!?!?!

A lie isn’t just saying the opposite of the truth, it’s also giving a whole truth, and there is also lying by omission...

"
apologies typo ‘not giving the whole truth’

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?"

If you want, but it's not unforeseeable that having sex with someone you met 5 minutes ago that there may be something in their background you don't like.

Should all people carry a card saying pertinent things about their past? That would be ridiculous. I'm afraid, in this case it's sold as seen and shagger beware.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Of course he’s been deceived! He just doesn’t know it.

How has he been deceived? He saw someone he fancied and just went for it. She may have been dressed provocatively but,as we are all aware,that is no excuse for anything.

Give or take... the number of trans people in the world population is less than 0.5%. And an even smaller figure for post-op. It’s entirely reasonable for him to assume the person was a woman.

It would be very reasonable for anyone entering into a long term relationship to discuss those matters,having children etc.

But, if they never discuss it,he never asks and she has not specifically told him something that is not true,has she really deceived him.

She may reasonably assume that he twigged from the first minute but it just didn't matter to him. He never mentioned his attitude towards trans people either.

So.... if it’s short term deception it’s okay/permissible. .. but if you’re decieved in a long term relationship.. that’s wrong or inconceivable?!?!?!

A lie isn’t just saying the opposite of the truth, it’s also giving a whole truth, and there is also lying by omission...

Regarding your first point, I didn't say that at all.

And your second point, what do we consider 'the whole truth?'. they were just chatting in a bar.Were they expected to go through every point of their lives? You may say,'only the rekevant parts'. But, if he never though transition was a relevant subject to discuss,should she?

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By *ungmagic10Man
over a year ago

Northampton

I think it's deception. Things like should be mentioned before hand. Just my 2 cents

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?"

Well it's not a massive questionnaire really is it it's just saying to any prosepective person that they have sex with that they anatomically used to have male sex organs.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?

If you want, but it's not unforeseeable that having sex with someone you met 5 minutes ago that there may be something in their background you don't like.

Should all people carry a card saying pertinent things about their past? That would be ridiculous. I'm afraid, in this case it's sold as seen and shagger beware."

That makes me feel as though I'm a used car but I can't help agreeing with you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Add another twist...

What if they got on so well they started a relationship and then got married.

A month/year later he found out the woman he married was born a man.

Has he been deceived?"

I thought this too!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?

Well it's not a massive questionnaire really is it it's just saying to any prosepective person that they have sex with that they anatomically used to have male sex organs. "

But,that is putting the onus on her to judge what she thinks he needs to know. Is it not his responsibility to ask the question if it's a subject that matters to him?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?

Well it's not a massive questionnaire really is it it's just saying to any prosepective person that they have sex with that they anatomically used to have male sex organs.

But,that is putting the onus on her to judge what she thinks he needs to know. Is it not his responsibility to ask the question if it's a subject that matters to him?"

But it is on her to let that person know.

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"I would say chromosomes are very relevant to determining your sex."

Well you would be wrong. Brain scans have proven that men and women process thoughts differently. It is 100% proven that some men have the mind of a woman, and some women have the mind of a man.

Their identity was not decided by chromosomes at all, but the hormones released by the mother during pregnancy.

This is the scientific fact behind gender, not your genese, but who you are in your head.

You are not a man because you are born with a penis. Takes a lot more than that to be a man, and takes a lot more than a vagina to be a woman.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?

Well it's not a massive questionnaire really is it it's just saying to any prosepective person that they have sex with that they anatomically used to have male sex organs.

But,that is putting the onus on her to judge what she thinks he needs to know. Is it not his responsibility to ask the question if it's a subject that matters to him?"

No its not. Its on the person who had the sex change to tell them.

If a woman is married, I would expect her to tell me shes married

If a woman has HIV, I would expect her to tell me shes HIV positive

I wouldn't go around asking every woman whos shown interest me if she used to be a man. That's just rude and would result in me getting a slap round the face

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?

Well it's not a massive questionnaire really is it it's just saying to any prosepective person that they have sex with that they anatomically used to have male sex organs.

But,that is putting the onus on her to judge what she thinks he needs to know. Is it not his responsibility to ask the question if it's a subject that matters to him?

But it is on her to let that person know. "

Plus do you think a guy is really gonna go up to a woman he wants to fuck and say sorry love I just need to check but did you used to be a man!?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I would say chromosomes are very relevant to determining your sex.

Well you would be wrong. Brain scans have proven that men and women process thoughts differently. It is 100% proven that some men have the mind of a woman, and some women have the mind of a man.

Their identity was not decided by chromosomes at all, but the hormones released by the mother during pregnancy.

This is the scientific fact behind gender, not your genese, but who you are in your head.

You are not a man because you are born with a penis. Takes a lot more than that to be a man, and takes a lot more than a vagina to be a woman."

I get what you are saying, but you are talking about gender where as I am talking about the biological sex of the person

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?

Well it's not a massive questionnaire really is it it's just saying to any prosepective person that they have sex with that they anatomically used to have male sex organs.

But,that is putting the onus on her to judge what she thinks he needs to know. Is it not his responsibility to ask the question if it's a subject that matters to him?

But it is on her to let that person know. "

How is she supposed to know what he doesn't know and what he needs to know?

(sorry if that comes across as a bit like Sir Humphry).

Why is it her responsibility to tell him something that just hasn't arisen in conversation? How is she supposed to know that he would consider it relevant or not?

Like I've said,there may be many things that he would be interested to know about,and vice versa,but is it anyones respnsibilty to know another persons mind?

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"If a woman has HIV, I would expect her to tell me shes HIV positive"

Yeah because her current status is HIV positive, you want to know her current status.

Do you want to know if she had the clap when 18 and cured it? Nah you don't care about that, and if she didnt tell you no court would say she did something wrong, as its not her current status.

Like the trans is currently a woman, she told you her current status.

It's deception, but lets not argue about if they are a woman or compare it to someone telling lies about aids. Cause them arguments are not valid.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?

Well it's not a massive questionnaire really is it it's just saying to any prosepective person that they have sex with that they anatomically used to have male sex organs.

But,that is putting the onus on her to judge what she thinks he needs to know. Is it not his responsibility to ask the question if it's a subject that matters to him?

No its not. Its on the person who had the sex change to tell them.

If a woman is married, I would expect her to tell me shes married

If a woman has HIV, I would expect her to tell me shes HIV positive

I wouldn't go around asking every woman whos shown interest me if she used to be a man. That's just rude and would result in me getting a slap round the face"

There is a difference though. Being married or HIV positive are current situations. Her past is the past.

They have no responsibility to disclose previous marriages or health issues.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Add another twist...

What if they got on so well they started a relationship and then got married.

A month/year later he found out the woman he married was born a man.

Has he been deceived?

I thought this too! "

Now. The questions changed. It was a one night stand with filthy sex, now it's fill blown marriage.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I would say chromosomes are very relevant to determining your sex.

Well you would be wrong. Brain scans have proven that men and women process thoughts differently. It is 100% proven that some men have the mind of a woman, and some women have the mind of a man.

Their identity was not decided by chromosomes at all, but the hormones released by the mother during pregnancy.

This is the scientific fact behind gender, not your genese, but who you are in your head.

You are not a man because you are born with a penis. Takes a lot more than that to be a man, and takes a lot more than a vagina to be a woman.

I get what you are saying, but you are talking about gender where as I am talking about the biological sex of the person"

Which is of more relevance in this case. A persons previous biological sex,the definition of which we don't seem to be able to agree on and the exact details of which are only assumed) or her current physical sex?

I'd say the former can only be a matter for speculation and the latter is what matters now.

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East

"Moral of the story, if you only want sex with people who's history you know, don't engage in casual sex.

And always carry a detailed questionnaire in case of chance encounters?

Well it's not a massive questionnaire really is it it's just saying to any prosepective person that they have sex with that they anatomically used to have male sex organs.

But,that is putting the onus on her to judge what she thinks he needs to know. Is it not his responsibility to ask the question if it's a subject that matters to him?

But it is on her to let that person know.

Plus do you think a guy is really gonna go up to a woman he wants to fuck and say sorry love I just need to check but did you used to be a man!?"

This woman talks so much sense its untrue.