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"I am not sure how I feel about all these stories coming out. Many of the people beinf accused have no way of proving themselves innocent and even if they are... then it's to late... Not saying that things are not true.. but annoys me that if it was just yiur average Joe the police would not be interested... " I’m not so sure that if it was your average Joe the police would not be interested, the media wouldn’t be certainly. I trust the police would look into any allegation brought before them. | |||
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"I am not sure how I feel about all these stories coming out. Many of the people beinf accused have no way of proving themselves innocent and even if they are... then it's to late... Not saying that things are not true.. but annoys me that if it was just yiur average Joe the police would not be interested... I’m not so sure that if it was your average Joe the police would not be interested, the media wouldn’t be certainly. I trust the police would look into any allegation brought before them. " nope. Someone close to me was told it was to long ago and with no evidence only her say so there was no case to bring. She would have been under 16 at the time. Hence these stories annoy me. | |||
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"I am not sure how I feel about all these stories coming out. Many of the people beinf accused have no way of proving themselves innocent and even if they are... then it's to late... Not saying that things are not true.. but annoys me that if it was just yiur average Joe the police would not be interested... I’m not so sure that if it was your average Joe the police would not be interested, the media wouldn’t be certainly. I trust the police would look into any allegation brought before them. nope. Someone close to me was told it was to long ago and with no evidence only her say so there was no case to bring. She would have been under 16 at the time. Hence these stories annoy me." Gosh, I’m sorry to hear that. | |||
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"I heard the initial allegation which was Kevin Spacey was d*unk and asked if this 14 year old lad wanted to go to a party (I presumed it was an after awards party). Anyhow the guy said he was very d*unk and made "remarks" . What's it turned out that he's done now?" according to what I read he carried the boy to his bed and tried it on | |||
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"I heard the initial allegation which was Kevin Spacey was d*unk and asked if this 14 year old lad wanted to go to a party (I presumed it was an after awards party). Anyhow the guy said he was very d*unk and made "remarks" . What's it turned out that he's done now? according to what I read he carried the boy to his bed and tried it on " . Oh dear oh dear, no wonder his initial response was he can't remember the incident  | |||
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"I am not sure how I feel about all these stories coming out. Many of the people beinf accused have no way of proving themselves innocent and even if they are... then it's to late... Not saying that things are not true.. but annoys me that if it was just yiur average Joe the police would not be interested... I’m not so sure that if it was your average Joe the police would not be interested, the media wouldn’t be certainly. I trust the police would look into any allegation brought before them. nope. Someone close to me was told it was to long ago and with no evidence only her say so there was no case to bring. She would have been under 16 at the time. Hence these stories annoy me. Gosh, I’m sorry to hear that. " it was only 3 years prior to her approaching the police. | |||
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"I have an issue in that it's an allegation only at this stage, not investigated and no charges brought. It's one allegation (unless more come up but the old vic have confirmed no allegations while he was there) versus Weinstein probably almost a hundred now. Weinstein has flatly denied all of them whereas spacey has said he can't remember but if it happened he's sorry. Can you remember being d*unk and everything you did 30 years ago, even if it was inappropriate? Take all allegations seriously but I think they should hold off taking stuff away like emmy's until it's been investigated, it could after all be malicious. Isn't it like the argument against negative veris on here, oh that louby she didn't turn up, when nothing in reality was planned. I'm all for sanctions or consequences where proven but it just feels like everyone's jumping the gun now as a knee jerk to Weinstein" But I also take issue with him choosing to ‘come out’ within the very same statement he makes about the accusation, when he has chosen to remain private (as is his right) for so long. I feel it deflects from addressing the accusation, which is good PR. It serves him well, which feels rather off, just in my opinion. | |||
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"I have an issue in that it's an allegation only at this stage, not investigated and no charges brought. It's one allegation (unless more come up but the old vic have confirmed no allegations while he was there) versus Weinstein probably almost a hundred now. Weinstein has flatly denied all of them whereas spacey has said he can't remember but if it happened he's sorry. Can you remember being d*unk and everything you did 30 years ago, even if it was inappropriate? Take all allegations seriously but I think they should hold off taking stuff away like emmy's until it's been investigated, it could after all be malicious. Isn't it like the argument against negative veris on here, oh that louby she didn't turn up, when nothing in reality was planned. I'm all for sanctions or consequences where proven but it just feels like everyone's jumping the gun now as a knee jerk to Weinstein But I also take issue with him choosing to ‘come out’ within the very same statement he makes about the accusation, when he has chosen to remain private (as is his right) for so long. I feel it deflects from addressing the accusation, which is good PR. It serves him well, which feels rather off, just in my opinion. " I agree but as the allegation came from a man I think the natural follow up to any response would have been questions again on his sexuality that if he'd omitted that. Who knows if it was a plot or he just thought let me finally deal with it. | |||
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"I have an issue in that it's an allegation only at this stage, not investigated and no charges brought. It's one allegation (unless more come up but the old vic have confirmed no allegations while he was there) versus Weinstein probably almost a hundred now. Weinstein has flatly denied all of them whereas spacey has said he can't remember but if it happened he's sorry. Can you remember being d*unk and everything you did 30 years ago, even if it was inappropriate? Take all allegations seriously but I think they should hold off taking stuff away like emmy's until it's been investigated, it could after all be malicious. Isn't it like the argument against negative veris on here, oh that louby she didn't turn up, when nothing in reality was planned. I'm all for sanctions or consequences where proven but it just feels like everyone's jumping the gun now as a knee jerk to Weinstein But I also take issue with him choosing to ‘come out’ within the very same statement he makes about the accusation, when he has chosen to remain private (as is his right) for so long. I feel it deflects from addressing the accusation, which is good PR. It serves him well, which feels rather off, just in my opinion. "  Disgusting timing and it was hardly a surprise. He's getting slated for it. | |||
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"Well if they looked at jimmy aaville they should look at everyone’s crimes no matter how old " Fact is Jimmy Savile has never been and never will be tried and found innocent or guilty. These type of crimes rarely have independant witnesses, and physical evidence is gone in hours not weeks or years. The case on the news today about the Labour party worker who went to her boss, not the police 2 years after the alleged incident is a prime example. What did she really expect? A colleague to be fired on NO evidence? Cant happen, the unfair dismissal case would be epic. I understand why people can be reluctant to report crimes. But the fact is with no evidence there is very small chance of prosecution, and any that happen due to media coverage are inherently unaafe. | |||
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"Trouble is these days its its all to easy to name and shame a celeb. I met a very big pop star just before he hit the big time. I was a young teen at the time but in a pub... he was trying to chat me and my friend up.. we laughed at him and left.... however whats to stop someone in that situation from spinning it differently. They can prove they were there... the celeb has zero chance of remembering one party from the next. Not saying all these victims are making it up but how do you prove something one way or the other .. And all this trial by media means no matter what... the damage is done. Even if the comments prove unfounded.. I'd hope no one would make it up.. but dealt with enough cases where people have lied..... although thankfully the punishments for that are now much stronger. " And what did all the liars in the cases you’ve dealt with get out of it? How was it proven that they lied? | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations?" Probably because they felt previously that no one would take them seriously, and the current environment has changed that. | |||
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"Disgusted he's tried to use coming out as a distraction - gay guys have been fighting for DECADES for being gay to be recognised as NOT the same as being a child molestor. Self serving crap! Very very rare for people to allege such crimes falsely. As for why not until now? Because the victim ISN'T the one with the power, the respect, but IS the one that is shamed, disbelieved and blamed. " It's less rare for people to allege crimes against rich people. I don't believe or disbelieve the allegations, but the reality is that there's going to be fuck all evidence at this point to know either way. Some people will presume guilty not matter what, as per the Michael Jackson cases. | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations? Probably because they felt previously that no one would take them seriously, and the current environment has changed that. " That and shame and the fact that in many cases they reported it at the time and were "discouraged" from taking it further e.g. if you want a career you'll keep quiet. There's an interesting article in the guardian today. Ministers were kept in line by being told that their indiscretions would be made public or their wife made aware if they didn't tow the line. Someone I know was abused by a close family member, it stopped when she was 15. She was 50 before she found the strength to even talk to anyone about it. | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations? Probably because they felt previously that no one would take them seriously, and the current environment has changed that. That and shame and the fact that in many cases they reported it at the time and were "discouraged" from taking it further e.g. if you want a career you'll keep quiet. There's an interesting article in the guardian today. Ministers were kept in line by being told that their indiscretions would be made public or their wife made aware " If that's true then i believe that is black-mail and illegal. Perhaps a certain lawyer will be along to confirm... | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations? Probably because they felt previously that no one would take them seriously, and the current environment has changed that. That and shame and the fact that in many cases they reported it at the time and were "discouraged" from taking it further e.g. if you want a career you'll keep quiet. There's an interesting article in the guardian today. Ministers were kept in line by being told that their indiscretions would be made public or their wife made aware If that's true then i believe that is black-mail and illegal. Perhaps a certain lawyer will be along to confirm..." No idea if it's true or not but a former head of communications to Theresa May is apparently the source. | |||
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"As I understand it, the reporter says the actor was d*unk and fell on top of him, so I'm not sure it wasn't non-sexual. The applicable jurisdiction would be a local USA state, with different laws to the UK. He's criticized for coming out but it potentially takes power away from people who may want to wield power over him for unspoken adult gay sex activities. " “My memory was that I thought, ‘Oh, everybody’s gone. Well, yeah, I should probably go home,’” Rapp told BuzzFeed. Spacey, he said, “sort of stood in the doorway, kind of swaying. My impression when he came in the room was that he was d*unk … He picked me up like a groom picks up the bride over the threshold. But I don’t, like, squirm away initially, because I’m like, ‘What’s going on?’ And then he lays down on top of me.” “He was trying to seduce me,” Rapp said. “I don’t know if I would have used that language. But I was aware that he was trying to get with me sexually.” I think it’s over simplifying to say that the reporter said “d*unk and fell on top of him” when the above statement is what he said. I’m making no further judgement on Spacey’s guilt or innocence but let’s be accurate. | |||
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"Trouble is these days its its all to easy to name and shame a celeb. I met a very big pop star just before he hit the big time. I was a young teen at the time but in a pub... he was trying to chat me and my friend up.. we laughed at him and left.... however whats to stop someone in that situation from spinning it differently. They can prove they were there... the celeb has zero chance of remembering one party from the next. Not saying all these victims are making it up but how do you prove something one way or the other .. And all this trial by media means no matter what... the damage is done. Even if the comments prove unfounded.. I'd hope no one would make it up.. but dealt with enough cases where people have lied..... although thankfully the punishments for that are now much stronger. " U have proof they lied? Because retracting is VERY common (doesn't mean they lied), feeling intimidated and scared is VERY common. | |||
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"This is a difficult one. Trauma can stay with victims for years, decades. There’s been rumours about Spacey and Weinstein for years. I have a friend who works in the American media who got chased around a hotel room by a d*unken A lister 15 years ago. Nothing happened, but if she’d been less forthright??? But as someone else said on here, if Spacey was a plumber it’s doubtful there’d be any police interest. I imagine being stupidly wealthy and powerful can make people turn into arseholes. But what of John Leslie? A man put through the system. Found innocent by the courts and his life is in tatters. I think Spaceys press release was a cock up. He’s simply pissed off the gay community now. It seemed to be written in a very defensive way. Perhaps he’d have been better to contact his accuser and ask for a sit down? Just privately. I don’t know if that’s a better way. I think part of the way the world works these days is what’s good PR? Rather than what’s the right thing to do. " I’m not entirely convinced that cases brought before the courts and where the accused are found innocent are necessarily the case, these allegations are so hard to prove. I’ve seen guilty people walk free. | |||
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"I have an issue in that it's an allegation only at this stage, not investigated and no charges brought. It's one allegation (unless more come up but the old vic have confirmed no allegations while he was there) versus Weinstein probably almost a hundred now. Weinstein has flatly denied all of them whereas spacey has said he can't remember but if it happened he's sorry. Can you remember being d*unk and everything you did 30 years ago, even if it was inappropriate? Take all allegations seriously but I think they should hold off taking stuff away like emmy's until it's been investigated, it could after all be malicious. Isn't it like the argument against negative veris on here, oh that louby she didn't turn up, when nothing in reality was planned. I'm all for sanctions or consequences where proven but it just feels like everyone's jumping the gun now as a knee jerk to Weinstein But I also take issue with him choosing to ‘come out’ within the very same statement he makes about the accusation, when he has chosen to remain private (as is his right) for so long. I feel it deflects from addressing the accusation, which is good PR. It serves him well, which feels rather off, just in my opinion. " So much this! I can see why the gay community are so angry about him choosing to turn a sexual harassment of a minor into a coming out story. | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations? Probably because they felt previously that no one would take them seriously, and the current environment has changed that. That and shame and the fact that in many cases they reported it at the time and were "discouraged" from taking it further e.g. if you want a career you'll keep quiet. There's an interesting article in the guardian today. Ministers were kept in line by being told that their indiscretions would be made public or their wife made aware if they didn't tow the line. Someone I know was abused by a close family member, it stopped when she was 15. She was 50 before she found the strength to even talk to anyone about it." I also heard that in this particular case, the apparent victim felt he needed to come forward in light of the recent Weinstein allegations, which I completely get. I think as a child, you don't always recognise the enormity of what's happened when it comes to sexual assault. It's only as an adult that you can address it. | |||
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"Trouble is these days its its all to easy to name and shame a celeb. I met a very big pop star just before he hit the big time. I was a young teen at the time but in a pub... he was trying to chat me and my friend up.. we laughed at him and left.... however whats to stop someone in that situation from spinning it differently. They can prove they were there... the celeb has zero chance of remembering one party from the next. Not saying all these victims are making it up but how do you prove something one way or the other .. And all this trial by media means no matter what... the damage is done. Even if the comments prove unfounded.. I'd hope no one would make it up.. but dealt with enough cases where people have lied..... although thankfully the punishments for that are now much stronger. U have proof they lied? Because retracting is VERY common (doesn't mean they lied), feeling intimidated and scared is VERY common." yes it was found that they had lied.. And please don't preach to me about retracting. Have very very personal knowledge of this on both sides and I'm well aware of why people retract which is why it annoys me more when people make false allegations. I'm one case the young lady had actually messaged someone avout making him pay and that she would accuse him. He had dumped her was his only crime. And it makes real allegations all that harder to fight. But with all these.. I don't get how with no proof they can make a case when if it was just your average guy you would be told sorry no evidence | |||
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"Not guilty is not the same as innocent. Here in Scotland we also have not proven " Actually it is, one is innocent until proven guilty. | |||
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"Just my ten pence.... should he be arrested? I feel there has been a cover up, a lot of news channels are highlighting the fact he’s come out as gay with hardly any light being shed on the fact he assaulted a 14 year old boy, it’s worrying times, media manipulation and the tip of an iceberg, anyone else have any thoughts " *allegedly | |||
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"I haven't read all the allegations made against Spacey, will wait for the dust to settle. The lack of chaperones in the past has a lot to answer for. Nowadays they wouldn't be able to share backstage, get chatting and be invited to an adult party in Manhatten. He was 14 at the time, under parental responsibility...." I pointed that out earlier...and also drew another conculsion for the likes of drew barrymore, and probably a string of other child stars that have ended up having drug/alcohol issues at very young ages.. I'm going to wonder how they get access to the drugs/drink..who supplied them etc..it's not like they probably went to guys off the street is it?.. parental responsibility might be something thats overshadowed by greed in many a case. *again I am NOT defending actions/behaviour against children | |||
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"Apparently, someone making an allegation is enough to be deemed guilty now. Saves on court time, I suppose. " that's how it feels to me. And it's that part that I have issues with. I do not think it should be public knowledge until the person has been through a court x | |||
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"All the people who say they knew about abuse and didn’t do anything at the time are just as bad, their inaction caused others to be abused." Agreed. Jane Fonda Janet Street Porter Esther Rantzen All people who were big enough names to make a noise but chose not too. If you google the interview Jonny Rotten gives in 1978 about Jimmy Saville (it's on YouTube) it's clear everyone knew what he was up to. I imagine it's the same in the HW case and Spacey. | |||
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"I haven't read all the allegations made against Spacey, will wait for the dust to settle. The lack of chaperones in the past has a lot to answer for. Nowadays they wouldn't be able to share backstage, get chatting and be invited to an adult party in Manhatten. He was 14 at the time, under parental responsibility.... I pointed that out earlier...and also drew another conculsion for the likes of drew barrymore, and probably a string of other child stars that have ended up having drug/alcohol issues at very young ages.. I'm going to wonder how they get access to the drugs/drink..who supplied them etc..it's not like they probably went to guys off the street is it?.. parental responsibility might be something thats overshadowed by greed in many a case. *again I am NOT defending actions/behaviour against children" | |||
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"All the people who say they knew about abuse and didn’t do anything at the time are just as bad, their inaction caused others to be abused. Agreed. Jane Fonda Janet Street Porter Esther Rantzen All people who were big enough names to make a noise but chose not too. If you google the interview Jonny Rotten gives in 1978 about Jimmy Saville (it's on YouTube) it's clear everyone knew what he was up to. I imagine it's the same in the HW case and Spacey." It was the same in small, ordinary organisations. Everyone knew the man to avoid, the guy not to get in the lift with. Nobody ever said anything to the people in authority but you can bet your life they knew. | |||
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"Really interesting thread. My main concern is that there seems to be a lot of vague weak allegations coming out from people who are obviously band wagon jumping for publicity and they all have to be investigated at a time when the authorities need to be concentrating on the more serious case." Did you see damian green this morning? - he sent a text asking someone out for a drink and alledgedly and "fleetingly" touched her knee. Hardly a trauamtic experience if true. | |||
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"It's always going to be a difficult subject and people will have different opinions my take on it is at least Spacey has came out and been honest saying he can't remember and at least apologised for his d*unken behaviour if it did happen I'm not for 1 second saying it's acceptable and that should be the end of the story but why do these people wait years and years before coming out with these allegations which we must remember that's all they are at this moment in time and like somebody very wisely pointed out can we all remember the things we have done when d*unk many moons ago ? Put yourself in both situations before judging. I'm on the fence with this one " | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations?" i would rather these came out eventually... as opposed to never coming out at all, Re: jimmy saville | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations? i would rather these came out eventually... as opposed to never coming out at all, Re: jimmy saville" Personally I wouldn't carry around the emotional baggage for a matter of years. I had a thing once, chose not to do anything about it, chose being the critical term. The guy was on the front page of the BBC this year as loads of other boys came forward and said he'd done this and that. He's in prison now. To be honest i feel pity for him above all else. It's never bothered me, nor do i regret my decision. | |||
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"I didn't see the Damien Green thing this morning but that is exactly what I meant by trivial allegations.No doubt these were probably made by someone who is no longer in that business or has been pretty unsuccessful but time and resources will be spent on it." If true, It's basically just a guy in a position of power trying his luck with a girl of legal age. Powerful people have needs too! | |||
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"I didn't see the Damien Green thing this morning but that is exactly what I meant by trivial allegations.No doubt these were probably made by someone who is no longer in that business or has been pretty unsuccessful but time and resources will be spent on it." but it is your place to say what is trivial to some but not to others.... it might have meant a lot more to a victim than it would have done to a perp...... | |||
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"Really interesting thread. My main concern is that there seems to be a lot of vague weak allegations coming out from people who are obviously band wagon jumping for publicity and they all have to be investigated at a time when the authorities need to be concentrating on the more serious case." Obviously band wagon jumping for publicity?  that's quite a bold statement | |||
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"Really interesting thread. My main concern is that there seems to be a lot of vague weak allegations coming out from people who are obviously band wagon jumping for publicity and they all have to be investigated at a time when the authorities need to be concentrating on the more serious case. Obviously band wagon jumping for publicity? that's quite a bold statement "Yeah, I'm having issues with that statement too. Whilst I agree that it's a minefield in regards to evidence and blame, I think it's pretty obvious that people are speaking up now because they feel it's a time they can be brave. Almost as though they're standing together. | |||
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"I think it’s irresponsible to start deciding for other people how impacted they were or what should or shouldn’t be brought forward. I understand the waste of resources argument, but I don’t think it’s strong enough. In safeguarding sometimes it’s the small tip of the iceberg stuff that shines a light onto a deeper problem. I’d rather something investigated than not if someone has brought a concern forward. " Then you get the innocent people whose names are forever tarnished because of a media trial. Swings and roundabouts. | |||
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"I think it’s irresponsible to start deciding for other people how impacted they were or what should or shouldn’t be brought forward. I understand the waste of resources argument, but I don’t think it’s strong enough. In safeguarding sometimes it’s the small tip of the iceberg stuff that shines a light onto a deeper problem. I’d rather something investigated than not if someone has brought a concern forward. Then you get the innocent people whose names are forever tarnished because of a media trial. Swings and roundabouts. " Then more has to be done to deal with the media issue. Or educating people. | |||
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"I think it’s irresponsible to start deciding for other people how impacted they were or what should or shouldn’t be brought forward. I understand the waste of resources argument, but I don’t think it’s strong enough. In safeguarding sometimes it’s the small tip of the iceberg stuff that shines a light onto a deeper problem. I’d rather something investigated than not if someone has brought a concern forward. Then you get the innocent people whose names are forever tarnished because of a media trial. Swings and roundabouts. Then more has to be done to deal with the media issue. Or educating people." It's not something you can educate away. It's deep in our human nature to hold and share information about perceived risk. No amount of rational reasoning is going to get rid of the good old gut feeling that there's no smoke without fire. | |||
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"I think it’s irresponsible to start deciding for other people how impacted they were or what should or shouldn’t be brought forward. I understand the waste of resources argument, but I don’t think it’s strong enough. In safeguarding sometimes it’s the small tip of the iceberg stuff that shines a light onto a deeper problem. I’d rather something investigated than not if someone has brought a concern forward. Then you get the innocent people whose names are forever tarnished because of a media trial. Swings and roundabouts. Then more has to be done to deal with the media issue. Or educating people. It's not something you can educate away. It's deep in our human nature to hold and share information about perceived risk. No amount of rational reasoning is going to get rid of the good old gut feeling that there's no smoke without fire. " And I think often the gut instinct isn’t bad. | |||
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"Are you saying that the lady who had her knee touched and received a suggestive text years ago from Damien Green should be a priority and treated the same way as the young labour activist who was seriously sexually abused at a party meeting and reported the incident straight away?" Is that what I said? No. | |||
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"I think it’s irresponsible to start deciding for other people how impacted they were or what should or shouldn’t be brought forward. I understand the waste of resources argument, but I don’t think it’s strong enough. In safeguarding sometimes it’s the small tip of the iceberg stuff that shines a light onto a deeper problem. I’d rather something investigated than not if someone has brought a concern forward. Then you get the innocent people whose names are forever tarnished because of a media trial. Swings and roundabouts. Then more has to be done to deal with the media issue. Or educating people. It's not something you can educate away. It's deep in our human nature to hold and share information about perceived risk. No amount of rational reasoning is going to get rid of the good old gut feeling that there's no smoke without fire. And I think often the gut instinct isn’t bad. " The circumstances in which gut feel works well and doesn't are well documented in psychology. | |||
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"I think it’s irresponsible to start deciding for other people how impacted they were or what should or shouldn’t be brought forward. I understand the waste of resources argument, but I don’t think it’s strong enough. In safeguarding sometimes it’s the small tip of the iceberg stuff that shines a light onto a deeper problem. I’d rather something investigated than not if someone has brought a concern forward. Then you get the innocent people whose names are forever tarnished because of a media trial. Swings and roundabouts. Then more has to be done to deal with the media issue. Or educating people. It's not something you can educate away. It's deep in our human nature to hold and share information about perceived risk. No amount of rational reasoning is going to get rid of the good old gut feeling that there's no smoke without fire. And I think often the gut instinct isn’t bad. The circumstances in which gut feel works well and doesn't are well documented in psychology. " | |||
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Think the only way forward is everyone is assessed and only allowed to meet, work with, travel with etc people they really wouldn't ever want any form of sexual contact with. Flirting can only be carried out via appropriate legal representatives with no actual meeting until consent contracts are signed by both parties.
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"I think it’s irresponsible to start deciding for other people how impacted they were or what should or shouldn’t be brought forward. I understand the waste of resources argument, but I don’t think it’s strong enough. In safeguarding sometimes it’s the small tip of the iceberg stuff that shines a light onto a deeper problem. I’d rather something investigated than not if someone has brought a concern forward. Then you get the innocent people whose names are forever tarnished because of a media trial. Swings and roundabouts. Then more has to be done to deal with the media issue. Or educating people." | |||
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"2 points I read on this forum. 1 a fair trial in Hollywood, let me think, does anyone remember OJ Simpsons trial? Guilty as sin but the Good old USA couldn't afford the rioting if he was found guilty so amazingly he wasn't. 2 no smoke without fire a gut feeling! How rediculous is that statement. So Sir Cliff Richard is guilty afterall? With no evidence, no trial but because he was arrested then he's guilty? I would not like to live in your mob culture!" Please don’t include me in the part 2 of that, it misrepresents my points massively. | |||
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"Innocent until proved guilty LOL Damien Green has just been stood down from his job as a minister I've not agreat deal of time for politicians but this guy has not even been interviewed yet by the Police meanwhile the person making the allegation is still hiding behind anomity " My issue with your statement was you making a decision who is lying or not. And then about you deciding what should be investigated or not (in terms of wasted resources, if that *was* what you meant). It’s not for you to make that decision or make sweeping generalisations. That is as much an issue as trial by media. | |||
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"Just read the Damian Green news, and I feel I must report myself to the police instantly. I have to confess I have touched a number of knees in my life, probably even hands and forearms too. And I too have asked people out for a drink. I am so ashamed
Think the only way forward is everyone is assessed and only allowed to meet, work with, travel with etc people they really wouldn't ever want any form of sexual contact with. Flirting can only be carried out via appropriate legal representatives with no actual meeting until consent contracts are signed by both parties.
Failure to comply or report non compliance within 30 seconds will be punnished by firing squad. "Yup. I kissed a girl once and she didn't like it. I totally misread the signals, thought she wanted me to make a move. The most awkward 30 seconds of my life, i ran out the room in shame. I'll hand myself in. | |||
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"Trivialising is very helpful. Carry on chaps. " I find it hard to further trivialize a fleeting touch on a knee, and a text message asking for a date. I get annoyed as these trivial human misunderstandings discredit the real cases of actual abuse. | |||
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"I was never suggesting I decided who lied and who didn't I was suggesting a decorum of common sense. Should anyone be happy in a so called democratic country when a person is stood down from their profession before anyone has even investigated an unproved allegation that he brushed someone's knee inappropriately " Your opening post was not about DG. You made a sweeping comment about people obviously jumping on the bandwagon. Are you admitting that was a judgemental statement that you now realise was placing you as the person who decides and you admit that was wrong to do so? I do hope so. | |||
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"Trivialising is very helpful. Carry on chaps. I find it hard to further trivialize a fleeting touch on a knee, and a text message asking for a date. I get annoyed as these trivial human misunderstandings discredit the real cases of actual abuse." | |||
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"Trivialising is very helpful. Carry on chaps. I find it hard to further trivialize a fleeting touch on a knee, and a text message asking for a date. I get annoyed as these trivial human misunderstandings discredit the real cases of actual abuse." All knowing, aren’t you? | |||
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"You are absolutely right my opening point was indeed about people jumping on this latest bandwagon but as pointed out by another poster the way DG has been treated only serves to back up my original point" Blimey, *you* get to decide if people are jumping on a bandwagon? What utter arrogant tosh. | |||
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"A few years ago one New Year's Eve I was out with my then girlfriend and we ended up back at a local pub owned by a gay couple. It was a pretty d*unken night and at the end of the evening one of these guys tried kissing me full on while telling everyone what he'd like to do to me. In the morning me and my gf were pissing ourselves laughing about what had happened did we trivialise the incident or should I jump on the bandwagon. About a week later we called in and I received an apology and a few free drinks and that was the end of the matter." Cool story. And nothing to do with my point. | |||
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"Not guilty is not the same as innocent. Here in Scotland we also have not proven Actually it is, one is innocent until proven guilty." One is presumed innocent until proven guilty. If a not guilty verdict is reached it just means guilt has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt - it does not mean the accused did not do the crime just that it was not proven in court. Lots of people charged with crimes have actually done the crime but it could not be proven in court so they get not guilty verdict. Here in Scotland the not proven verdict basically means that the accused was believed to have commited the crime but was not proven in court. | |||
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"Not guilty is not the same as innocent. Here in Scotland we also have not proven Actually it is, one is innocent until proven guilty. One is presumed innocent until proven guilty. If a not guilty verdict is reached it just means guilt has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt - it does not mean the accused did not do the crime just that it was not proven in court. Lots of people charged with crimes have actually done the crime but it could not be proven in court so they get not guilty verdict. Here in Scotland the not proven verdict basically means that the accused was believed to have commited the crime but was not proven in court. " Likewise being found guilty is not certain the person committed the actual act either. Whilst small in percentage, many convictions are later overturned. | |||
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"Is it "ok" to use your sexuality as a smoke screen to distract from your possible paedophile past? I say not. " It's hebephilia not pedophilia | |||
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"Is it "ok" to use your sexuality as a smoke screen to distract from your possible paedophile past? I say not. It's hebephilia not pedophilia " Ah, a seperate crime? | |||
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"It's hebephilia not pedophilia " Ah that old gem, used a lot by Roman Polanski apologists, to explain away his sodomy of a 13 year old girl, and molestation of a 10 year old girl. | |||
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"Is it "ok" to use your sexuality as a smoke screen to distract from your possible paedophile past? I say not. " are we saying it was a intentional paedophile act?? As I think if I was at an adult party. I'd assume everyone attending was an adult. Bit like the many on the register that fell foul of minors with false id in clubs that should have only been full of adults.. and some poor guys life is later destroyed because the girl he had a fumble ( willingly with) or took home later turned out to not be over the age of consent.. thankfully now it happens a lot less as its over 25 you need to look without id for many places. It's still wrong but I know I got into places for over 18 when I wasn't anywhere near that age. So surely people must have assumed I was that age or older. Btw its not right if the accusations are true. But how this far on could you prove one way or the other that a) it happened as told.. b) that Mr spacey knew the age of the victim.. and you could go on. Thing is regardless of what is now found out this will stick.. and that I find so many ways of wrong. It's an accusation... But many have judged and found guilty already. | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations? Probably because they felt previously that no one would take them seriously, and the current environment has changed that. That and shame and the fact that in many cases they reported it at the time and were "discouraged" from taking it further e.g. if you want a career you'll keep quiet. There's an interesting article in the guardian today. Ministers were kept in line by being told that their indiscretions would be made public or their wife made aware If that's true then i believe that is black-mail and illegal. Perhaps a certain lawyer will be along to confirm..." If you steal and get caught, you'll get arrested and pay the consequences. How is that different to if you cheat we'll tell your wife? It is negative reinforcement just as much as speed cameras designed to prevent you speeding. It's not blackm@il, it's highlighting consequences for your actions. Blackm@il is after the event not before. | |||
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"I say not. are we saying it was a intentional paedophile act?? As I think if I was at an adult party. I'd assume everyone attending was an adult." It was in Kevin Spaceys house. The child was invited by Kevin Spacey who knew his age. When the child turned up he didn't know it was going to be d*unk adults, why would he be invited to that? So he went and sat alone for most of the night. Kevin spacey came and found him, picked him up and carried him to bed, he then lay on top of him on the bed. The guy said as soon as he could get up he got up and ran to the bathroom and locked himself in. He then worked up the courage to leave. Kevin Spacey let him leave but followed him to the door and leaned on the door asking if he was sure he had to go. The boys actions are beyond question and they did not pretend to be older, show fake ID or lie about their age. | |||
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"Not guilty is not the same as innocent. Here in Scotland we also have not proven Actually it is, one is ASSUMED Innocent until proven guilty." FTFY | |||
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"Should innocent until proved guilty involve losing your job in the face of uncollaberated evidence of a trivial offence (I apologise to one poster but I also share the view of another that a hand on knee is pretty trivial ) Bearing in mind that the latest allegation coming out of the woodwork against Spacy is trying to get a 17 year old into bed where do we all stand on that one?" Depends on the law of the state it occurred in. | |||
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"Should innocent until proved guilty involve losing your job in the face of uncollaberated evidence of a trivial offence (I apologise to one poster but I also share the view of another that a hand on knee is pretty trivial ) Bearing in mind that the latest allegation coming out of the woodwork against Spacy is trying to get a 17 year old into bed where do we all stand on that one? Depends on the law of the state it occurred in." And the consent involved. | |||
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"Is it "ok" to use your sexuality as a smoke screen to distract from your possible paedophile past? I say not. are we saying it was a intentional paedophile act?? As I think if I was at an adult party. I'd assume everyone attending was an adult. Bit like the many on the register that fell foul of minors with false id in clubs that should have only been full of adults.. and some poor guys life is later destroyed because the girl he had a fumble ( willingly with) or took home later turned out to not be over the age of consent.. thankfully now it happens a lot less as its over 25 you need to look without id for many places. It's still wrong but I know I got into places for over 18 when I wasn't anywhere near that age. So surely people must have assumed I was that age or older. Btw its not right if the accusations are true. But how this far on could you prove one way or the other that a) it happened as told.. b) that Mr spacey knew the age of the victim.. and you could go on. Thing is regardless of what is now found out this will stick.. and that I find so many ways of wrong. It's an accusation... But many have judged and found guilty already. " I concur. It angers me the way the term paedophile is bandied about. | |||
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"Should innocent until proved guilty involve losing your job in the face of uncollaberated evidence of a trivial offence (I apologise to one poster but I also share the view of another that a hand on knee is pretty trivial ) Bearing in mind that the latest allegation coming out of the woodwork against Spacy is trying to get a 17 year old into bed where do we all stand on that one? Depends on the law of the state it occurred in. And the consent involved. " Aye but i know you know that consent cannot be given by a minor. | |||
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"Should innocent until proved guilty involve losing your job in the face of uncollaberated evidence of a trivial offence (I apologise to one poster but I also share the view of another that a hand on knee is pretty trivial ) Bearing in mind that the latest allegation coming out of the woodwork against Spacy is trying to get a 17 year old into bed where do we all stand on that one? Depends on the law of the state it occurred in. And the consent involved. Aye but i know you know that consent cannot be given by a minor." Totally, I meant in terms of when the age was legal. | |||
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"You are absolutely right my opening point was indeed about people jumping on this latest bandwagon but as pointed out by another poster the way DG has been treated only serves to back up my original point" Being a victim of a sexual assault of any magnitude isn't a bandwagon to jump on. It's attitudes like that which stop people from reporting when sexual crimes are committed against them, either forever or until a time when they feel brave enough to do so. I agree that when people are accused it should be left to the police to investigate and the media shouldn't be involved, particularly in high profile cases, but it's wrong to make assumptions on either side. | |||
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"Good actor. Bad babysitter. Needs to get the maximum sentence available. Hollywood is probably rife with sexual predators. Still waiting for Trump to be sent to prison. " . It's a bit of irony that Hollywood has been so vocal about trumps behaviour of pussy gropeing while seeming to completely forget about their own even worse behaviour | |||
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"It's hebephilia not pedophilia Ah that old gem, used a lot by Roman Polanski apologists, to explain away his sodomy of a 13 year old girl, and molestation of a 10 year old girl. " It doesn't explain anything, it's just the correct term | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations? Probably because they felt previously that no one would take them seriously, and the current environment has changed that. That and shame and the fact that in many cases they reported it at the time and were "discouraged" from taking it further e.g. if you want a career you'll keep quiet. There's an interesting article in the guardian today. Ministers were kept in line by being told that their indiscretions would be made public or their wife made aware If that's true then i believe that is black-mail and illegal. Perhaps a certain lawyer will be along to confirm... If you steal and get caught, you'll get arrested and pay the consequences. How is that different to if you cheat we'll tell your wife? It is negative reinforcement just as much as speed cameras designed to prevent you speeding. It's not blackm@il, it's highlighting consequences for your actions. Blackm@il is after the event not before. " Your examples are not comparable. It is the threat to highlight consequences in order to gain a service that makes it illegal. | |||
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"The alleged victim says it happened, spacey says he can't remember it happening . It happened over thirty years ago and the alleged victim (who has long been an adult) has only just mentioned it. Nothing has been proven. It's a sorry pass when someone is publicly vilified on such tenuous grounds. " What about party whips using knowledge of such events to keep MPs in line - surely that's illegal? | |||
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"The alleged victim says it happened, spacey says he can't remember it happening . It happened over thirty years ago and the alleged victim (who has long been an adult) has only just mentioned it. Nothing has been proven. It's a sorry pass when someone is publicly vilified on such tenuous grounds. " I maintain my position that a media trial is damaging, and that it must be left to the correct authorities to investigate any allegations. But I do find the comments that reference the length of time before a potential victim comes forward as potentially indicating that the allegation is invalid to be misguided and damaging, and completely lacking in any understanding of the subject. | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations? Probably because they felt previously that no one would take them seriously, and the current environment has changed that. That and shame and the fact that in many cases they reported it at the time and were "discouraged" from taking it further e.g. if you want a career you'll keep quiet. There's an interesting article in the guardian today. Ministers were kept in line by being told that their indiscretions would be made public or their wife made aware If that's true then i believe that is black-mail and illegal. Perhaps a certain lawyer will be along to confirm... If you steal and get caught, you'll get arrested and pay the consequences. How is that different to if you cheat we'll tell your wife? It is negative reinforcement just as much as speed cameras designed to prevent you speeding. It's not blackm@il, it's highlighting consequences for your actions. Blackm@il is after the event not before. Your examples are not comparable. It is the threat to highlight consequences in order to gain a service that makes it illegal. " It's not black mail. That has to involve a view to gain or loss in money or property. See a 34 theft act 1968. | |||
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"The alleged victim says it happened, spacey says he can't remember it happening . It happened over thirty years ago and the alleged victim (who has long been an adult) has only just mentioned it. Nothing has been proven. It's a sorry pass when someone is publicly vilified on such tenuous grounds. I maintain my position that a media trial is damaging, and that it must be left to the correct authorities to investigate any allegations. But I do find the comments that reference the length of time before a potential victim comes forward as potentially indicating that the allegation is invalid to be misguided and damaging, and completely lacking in any understanding of the subject. " I agree there can be all sorts of reasons why real victims don't come forward for a number of years, but taking years makes it very difficult for someone to defend such allegations if he is innocent as much evidence will have disappeared, witnesses will have died and the alleged perpetrator will have little or no memory of the incident alleged. Also, the longer you leave it, I think the more entitled we are to be skeptical. I can well understand why if you ar the young and /or powerless, you might not feel able to make an allegation, but this chap hasn't been in that position for years. | |||
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"The alleged victim says it happened, spacey says he can't remember it happening . It happened over thirty years ago and the alleged victim (who has long been an adult) has only just mentioned it. Nothing has been proven. It's a sorry pass when someone is publicly vilified on such tenuous grounds. " Problem is the damage has now already been done. All of the big companies will not distance themselves from spacey career at an end | |||
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"The alleged victim says it happened, spacey says he can't remember it happening . It happened over thirty years ago and the alleged victim (who has long been an adult) has only just mentioned it. Nothing has been proven. It's a sorry pass when someone is publicly vilified on such tenuous grounds. I maintain my position that a media trial is damaging, and that it must be left to the correct authorities to investigate any allegations. But I do find the comments that reference the length of time before a potential victim comes forward as potentially indicating that the allegation is invalid to be misguided and damaging, and completely lacking in any understanding of the subject. I agree there can be all sorts of reasons why real victims don't come forward for a number of years, but taking years makes it very difficult for someone to defend such allegations if he is innocent as much evidence will have disappeared, witnesses will have died and the alleged perpetrator will have little or no memory of the incident alleged. Also, the longer you leave it, I think the more entitled we are to be skeptical. I can well understand why if you ar the young and /or powerless, you might not feel able to make an allegation, but this chap hasn't been in that position for years. " But that is simply your opinion of him. Who are you to tell someone else what their level of feeling of power is about a situation? And I think you aren’t entitled to anything, no — the length of time doesn’t give you a better or worse sense of guilt or innocence, and entitle you to feel more skeptical or not in any way. I’m popping this excerpt in from an article (that was talking about a number of incidents) as it addresses far more eloquently than I, a key area I find highly concerning, the jumping in people do to tell other people’s (victim’s) stories for them: “She has every right to say that she found the whole thing mildly amusing rather than traumatising, and doesn’t regard this pawing as an assault or comparable in any way to the Weinstein stories. It’s her story to tell, nobody else’s. But a different woman – lacking the confidence to threaten to punch him if he didn’t stop, or else beholden to an MP in a way that reporters simply aren’t – might have felt differently, and she too would have every right to say so. Julia’s reaction is Julia’s reaction, not the standard by which every other woman trembling on the brink of coming forward should somehow be judged; and it’s still less a reason to shame anyone else into shutting up. The trouble with sexual harassment is that it isn’t as cut and dried as, say, burglary, because it’s not simply about what the perpetrator did. Like other harassment offences, its legal definition relies on the victim feeling intimidated or humiliated – feelings that might in turn depend on her age, life stage, confidence and temperament but also, crucially, on the power dynamic. A clumsy pass from an equal is one thing. But a clumsy pass from a boss who, according to the office rumour mill, forced out the last woman who stood up to him? That’s very different. And that’s why it’s virtually impossible to judge some other woman’s story from the comfort of your armchair or the moral heights of Twitter. You don’t know. You weren’t there. It isn’t about what you would have done in the circumstances.” | |||
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"The alleged victim says it happened, spacey says he can't remember it happening . It happened over thirty years ago and the alleged victim (who has long been an adult) has only just mentioned it. Nothing has been proven. It's a sorry pass when someone is publicly vilified on such tenuous grounds. Problem is the damage has now already been done. All of the big companies will not distance themselves from spacey career at an end " Casey Affleck is doing okay. | |||
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"But I do find the comments that reference the length of time before a potential victim comes forward as potentially indicating that the allegation is invalid to be misguided and damaging, and completely lacking in any understanding of the subject. " I don't think the length of time indicates anything more than the inability of any actual proof of guilt or innocence to be satisfactorarily reached. This is made worse when the crime has no actual witnesses, often the case with sexual abuse allegations. | |||
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"Why is taking so long for people to come forward with these allegations? Probably because they felt previously that no one would take them seriously, and the current environment has changed that. That and shame and the fact that in many cases they reported it at the time and were "discouraged" from taking it further e.g. if you want a career you'll keep quiet. There's an interesting article in the guardian today. Ministers were kept in line by being told that their indiscretions would be made public or their wife made aware If that's true then i believe that is black-mail and illegal. Perhaps a certain lawyer will be along to confirm... If you steal and get caught, you'll get arrested and pay the consequences. How is that different to if you cheat we'll tell your wife? It is negative reinforcement just as much as speed cameras designed to prevent you speeding. It's not blackm@il, it's highlighting consequences for your actions. Blackm@il is after the event not before. Your examples are not comparable. It is the threat to highlight consequences in order to gain a service that makes it illegal. " It's a threat or promise to get party members/MPs toe the line. It is a code of conduct! It is not black mail and very unlikely to be illegal. The members have choices! | |||
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"The alleged victim says it happened, spacey says he can't remember it happening . It happened over thirty years ago and the alleged victim (who has long been an adult) has only just mentioned it. Nothing has been proven. It's a sorry pass when someone is publicly vilified on such tenuous grounds. I maintain my position that a media trial is damaging, and that it must be left to the correct authorities to investigate any allegations. But I do find the comments that reference the length of time before a potential victim comes forward as potentially indicating that the allegation is invalid to be misguided and damaging, and completely lacking in any understanding of the subject. I agree there can be all sorts of reasons why real victims don't come forward for a number of years, but taking years makes it very difficult for someone to defend such allegations if he is innocent as much evidence will have disappeared, witnesses will have died and the alleged perpetrator will have little or no memory of the incident alleged. Also, the longer you leave it, I think the more entitled we are to be skeptical. I can well understand why if you ar the young and /or powerless, you might not feel able to make an allegation, but this chap hasn't been in that position for years. But that is simply your opinion of him. Who are you to tell someone else what their level of feeling of power is about a situation? And I think you aren’t entitled to anything, no — the length of time doesn’t give you a better or worse sense of guilt or innocence, and entitle you to feel more skeptical or not in any way. I’m popping this excerpt in from an article (that was talking about a number of incidents) as it addresses far more eloquently than I, a key area I find highly concerning, the jumping in people do to tell other people’s (victim’s) stories for them: “She has every right to say that she found the whole thing mildly amusing rather than traumatising, and doesn’t regard this pawing as an assault or comparable in any way to the Weinstein stories. It’s her story to tell, nobody else’s. But a different woman – lacking the confidence to threaten to punch him if he didn’t stop, or else beholden to an MP in a way that reporters simply aren’t – might have felt differently, and she too would have every right to say so. Julia’s reaction is Julia’s reaction, not the standard by which every other woman trembling on the brink of coming forward should somehow be judged; and it’s still less a reason to shame anyone else into shutting up. The trouble with sexual harassment is that it isn’t as cut and dried as, say, burglary, because it’s not simply about what the perpetrator did. Like other harassment offences, its legal definition relies on the victim feeling intimidated or humiliated – feelings that might in turn depend on her age, life stage, confidence and temperament but also, crucially, on the power dynamic. A clumsy pass from an equal is one thing. But a clumsy pass from a boss who, according to the office rumour mill, forced out the last woman who stood up to him? That’s very different. And that’s why it’s virtually impossible to judge some other woman’s story from the comfort of your armchair or the moral heights of Twitter. You don’t know. You weren’t there. It isn’t about what you would have done in the circumstances.” " | |||
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"The alleged victim says it happened, spacey says he can't remember it happening . It happened over thirty years ago and the alleged victim (who has long been an adult) has only just mentioned it. Nothing has been proven. It's a sorry pass when someone is publicly vilified on such tenuous grounds. I maintain my position that a media trial is damaging, and that it must be left to the correct authorities to investigate any allegations. But I do find the comments that reference the length of time before a potential victim comes forward as potentially indicating that the allegation is invalid to be misguided and damaging, and completely lacking in any understanding of the subject. I agree there can be all sorts of reasons why real victims don't come forward for a number of years, but taking years makes it very difficult for someone to defend such allegations if he is innocent as much evidence will have disappeared, witnesses will have died and the alleged perpetrator will have little or no memory of the incident alleged. Also, the longer you leave it, I think the more entitled we are to be skeptical. I can well understand why if you ar the young and /or powerless, you might not feel able to make an allegation, but this chap hasn't been in that position for years. But that is simply your opinion of him. Who are you to tell someone else what their level of feeling of power is about a situation? And I think you aren’t entitled to anything, no — the length of time doesn’t give you a better or worse sense of guilt or innocence, and entitle you to feel more skeptical or not in any way. I’m popping this excerpt in from an article (that was talking about a number of incidents) as it addresses far more eloquently than I, a key area I find highly concerning, the jumping in people do to tell other people’s (victim’s) stories for them: “She has every right to say that she found the whole thing mildly amusing rather than traumatising, and doesn’t regard this pawing as an assault or comparable in any way to the Weinstein stories. It’s her story to tell, nobody else’s. But a different woman – lacking the confidence to threaten to punch him if he didn’t stop, or else beholden to an MP in a way that reporters simply aren’t – might have felt differently, and she too would have every right to say so. Julia’s reaction is Julia’s reaction, not the standard by which every other woman trembling on the brink of coming forward should somehow be judged; and it’s still less a reason to shame anyone else into shutting up. The trouble with sexual harassment is that it isn’t as cut and dried as, say, burglary, because it’s not simply about what the perpetrator did. Like other harassment offences, its legal definition relies on the victim feeling intimidated or humiliated – feelings that might in turn depend on her age, life stage, confidence and temperament but also, crucially, on the power dynamic. A clumsy pass from an equal is one thing. But a clumsy pass from a boss who, according to the office rumour mill, forced out the last woman who stood up to him? That’s very different. And that’s why it’s virtually impossible to judge some other woman’s story from the comfort of your armchair or the moral heights of Twitter. You don’t know. You weren’t there. It isn’t about what you would have done in the circumstances.” " And the end of the day, the truth or otherwise of these allegations should be decided by a jury of neutral independent people who would make assumptions about the state of mind of the alleged victim. How else could they decide if what he said were true or not? If this ever came to a court hearing, the first question a defence lawyer would ask would be why it took so long to make the allegation, you were a successful actor and spacey had no power over you. Why not make the allegation ten or twenty years ago? If he didn't have a good answer to that, he would be less likely to be believed. I can't be doing with this "believe the victim" stuff. If someone makes an allegation which is not accepted, it is merely that, an allegation. No one is guilty of anything until the allegation is proven. | |||
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"But I do find the comments that reference the length of time before a potential victim comes forward as potentially indicating that the allegation is invalid to be misguided and damaging, and completely lacking in any understanding of the subject. I don't think the length of time indicates anything more than the inability of any actual proof of guilt or innocence to be satisfactorarily reached. This is made worse when the crime has no actual witnesses, often the case with sexual abuse allegations." My post was to those making comments that indicated otherwise. | |||
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"I can't be doing with this "believe the victim" stuff. If someone makes an allegation which is not accepted, it is merely that, an allegation. No one is guilty of anything until the allegation is proven. " Wrong. In the eyes of the law no-one is guilty etc. As stated before, guilty people get off. | |||
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"The alleged victim says it happened, spacey says he can't remember it happening . It happened over thirty years ago and the alleged victim (who has long been an adult) has only just mentioned it. Nothing has been proven. It's a sorry pass when someone is publicly vilified on such tenuous grounds. I maintain my position that a media trial is damaging, and that it must be left to the correct authorities to investigate any allegations. But I do find the comments that reference the length of time before a potential victim comes forward as potentially indicating that the allegation is invalid to be misguided and damaging, and completely lacking in any understanding of the subject. I agree there can be all sorts of reasons why real victims don't come forward for a number of years, but taking years makes it very difficult for someone to defend such allegations if he is innocent as much evidence will have disappeared, witnesses will have died and the alleged perpetrator will have little or no memory of the incident alleged. Also, the longer you leave it, I think the more entitled we are to be skeptical. I can well understand why if you ar the young and /or powerless, you might not feel able to make an allegation, but this chap hasn't been in that position for years. But that is simply your opinion of him. Who are you to tell someone else what their level of feeling of power is about a situation? And I think you aren’t entitled to anything, no — the length of time doesn’t give you a better or worse sense of guilt or innocence, and entitle you to feel more skeptical or not in any way. I’m popping this excerpt in from an article (that was talking about a number of incidents) as it addresses far more eloquently than I, a key area I find highly concerning, the jumping in people do to tell other people’s (victim’s) stories for them: “She has every right to say that she found the whole thing mildly amusing rather than traumatising, and doesn’t regard this pawing as an assault or comparable in any way to the Weinstein stories. It’s her story to tell, nobody else’s. But a different woman – lacking the confidence to threaten to punch him if he didn’t stop, or else beholden to an MP in a way that reporters simply aren’t – might have felt differently, and she too would have every right to say so. Julia’s reaction is Julia’s reaction, not the standard by which every other woman trembling on the brink of coming forward should somehow be judged; and it’s still less a reason to shame anyone else into shutting up. The trouble with sexual harassment is that it isn’t as cut and dried as, say, burglary, because it’s not simply about what the perpetrator did. Like other harassment offences, its legal definition relies on the victim feeling intimidated or humiliated – feelings that might in turn depend on her age, life stage, confidence and temperament but also, crucially, on the power dynamic. A clumsy pass from an equal is one thing. But a clumsy pass from a boss who, according to the office rumour mill, forced out the last woman who stood up to him? That’s very different. And that’s why it’s virtually impossible to judge some other woman’s story from the comfort of your armchair or the moral heights of Twitter. You don’t know. You weren’t there. It isn’t about what you would have done in the circumstances.” And the end of the day, the truth or otherwise of these allegations should be decided by a jury of neutral independent people who would make assumptions about the state of mind of the alleged victim. How else could they decide if what he said were true or not? If this ever came to a court hearing, the first question a defence lawyer would ask would be why it took so long to make the allegation, you were a successful actor and spacey had no power over you. Why not make the allegation ten or twenty years ago? If he didn't have a good answer to that, he would be less likely to be believed. I can't be doing with this "believe the victim" stuff. If someone makes an allegation which is not accepted, it is merely that, an allegation. No one is guilty of anything until the allegation is proven. " I’ve not said anyone accused is or isn’t guilty, please don’t position me as if I have. I’m challenging judgements being made outside the context of the appropriate investigation. I’ve not said it is anything more than an allegation. I’ve not assumed anyone’s guilt. But I’ve also not insinuated disbelief in the alleged victim. | |||
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"I can't be doing with this "believe the victim" stuff. If someone makes an allegation which is not accepted, it is merely that, an allegation. No one is guilty of anything until the allegation is proven. Wrong. In the eyes of the law no-one is guilty etc. As stated before, guilty people get off." They do, but we don't then know they are guilty unless they say they are, which not many do. | |||
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"I think it’s irresponsible to start deciding for other people how impacted they were or what should or shouldn’t be brought forward. I understand the waste of resources argument, but I don’t think it’s strong enough. In safeguarding sometimes it’s the small tip of the iceberg stuff that shines a light onto a deeper problem. I’d rather something investigated than not if someone has brought a concern forward. Then you get the innocent people whose names are forever tarnished because of a media trial. Swings and roundabouts. Then more has to be done to deal with the media issue. Or educating people. It's not something you can educate away. It's deep in our human nature to hold and share information about perceived risk. No amount of rational reasoning is going to get rid of the good old gut feeling that there's no smoke without fire. And I think often the gut instinct isn’t bad. The circumstances in which gut feel works well and doesn't are well documented in psychology. " Exactly! Detailed investigation done scientifically are all that should be done. And trial by media should be stopped. | |||
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