FabSwingers.com forum: Do you consider yourself a feminist?

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Just that really.

Have the feminist battles been won? Or does Harvey Weinstein show that nothing has really changed?

What does feminism mean to you?

Can men ever be feminists?

Is being a woman on Fab a feminist choice?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just that really.

Have the feminist battles been won? Or does Harvey Weinstein show that nothing has really changed?

What does feminism mean to you?

Can men ever be feminists?

Is being a woman on Fab a feminist choice?"

Yes, I am a feminist.

There's still work to be done.

It is very important to me - as is challenging all forms of inequality.

Men can be feminists.

It is my choice and I am a feminist, I'm not doing it for feminism per se.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I guess it depends what the definition is of feminism in this thread. Some definitions I class myself as, others I don’t

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I guess it depends what the definition is of feminism in this thread. Some definitions I class myself as, others I don’t

Ok, so which definition do you subscribe too?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I don't consider myself a feminist. Modern feminism (both in academia and in practice) has subscribed to beliefs that I don't hold to be true. But I do believe in equality and women's rights to that equality and I act accordingly.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"Just that really.

Have the feminist battles been won? Or does Harvey Weinstein show that nothing has really changed?

What does feminism mean to you?

Can men ever be feminists?

Is being a woman on Fab a feminist choice?"

Yes I consider myself a feminist.

Battles have been won but other battles continue to rage or surface.

Harvey Weinstein isn't the antithesis of feminism. He used his position to procure sex. I'd have more of a beef with the women who subjected themselves to his 'offers' to further their careers. They certainly weren't feminists in my eyes.

Yes men can be feminists. They simply have to believe that it's wrong for someone to suffer prejudice based on their gender alone.

Being a woman on fab is a choice but not necessarily a feminist one nor is it anti feminist.

I dare say most people define feminism incorrectly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I guess it depends what the definition is of feminism in this thread. Some definitions I class myself as, others I don’t

Ok, so which definition do you subscribe too?"

Hmm. I subscribe to the definition of wanting fairness and equality between the sexes/genders when it comes to pay, education, professional opportunities, free speech, topless sunbathing, division of childcare/housework and lack of discrimination between sexes/genders regarding sexual abuse cases, harassment etc.

I’d not claim to subscribe to the feminist movements which try and take predominantly white middle class values and expectations to cultures and/or religious communities where such values and expectations would be inappropriate.

It’s kind of hard raising children to see everyone as equal while also teaching them to respect different cultures and values, even if to us they seem unequal and/or wrong

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I’d also be of the opinion that being a woman on fab isn’t necessarily part of being a feminist. That’s worded awfully but you get what I mean?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Being a woman on a site like FAB is not necessarily un-feminist,although some might argue that we are all pandering to the sexual desires of men. I prefer to think of it as taking control of my own life,anything I do is on my own terms (much more so than in both of my marriages and most of my relationships). If feminism means being a strong,independent woman then,yes,I'm a feminist.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just that really.

Have the feminist battles been won? Or does Harvey Weinstein show that nothing has really changed?

What does feminism mean to you?

Can men ever be feminists?

Is being a woman on Fab a feminist choice?

Yes I consider myself a feminist.

Battles have been won but other battles continue to rage or surface.

Yes men can be feminists. They simply have to believe that it's wrong for someone to suffer prejudice based on their gender alone.

Being a woman on fab is a choice but not necessarily a feminist one nor is it anti feminist.

I dare say most people define feminism incorrectly. "

Vague and contradictory

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"Just that really.

Have the feminist battles been won? Or does Harvey Weinstein show that nothing has really changed?

What does feminism mean to you?

Can men ever be feminists?

Is being a woman on Fab a feminist choice?

Yes I consider myself a feminist.

Battles have been won but other battles continue to rage or surface.

Yes men can be feminists. They simply have to believe that it's wrong for someone to suffer prejudice based on their gender alone.

Being a woman on fab is a choice but not necessarily a feminist one nor is it anti feminist.

I dare say most people define feminism incorrectly.

Vague and contradictory

What lovely eye rolling.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That Harvey Weinstein case really gets my goat up. Since when do we start naming an shaming victims. Many women won’t come forward, because of this. That case just proves if you have money you can do what you like.

An as for feminism we have come far. Still a big gap in wages . An I’m noticing with the youth of today seems to mean if a woman can hit a man, you can hit her back as an equal.

Has anyone else noticed that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"That Harvey Weinstein case really gets my goat up. Since when do we start naming an shaming victims. Many women won’t come forward, because of this. That case just proves if you have money you can do what you like.

An as for feminism we have come far. Still a big gap in wages . An I’m noticing with the youth of today seems to mean if a woman can hit a man, you can hit her back as an equal.

Has anyone else noticed that. "

Yes. When what we should be seeing is that it’s not acceptable for a man to hit a woman OR a woman to hit a man. Somethings obviously got lost in translation

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just that really.

Have the feminist battles been won? Or does Harvey Weinstein show that nothing has really changed?

What does feminism mean to you?

Can men ever be feminists?

Is being a woman on Fab a feminist choice?

Yes I consider myself a feminist.

Battles have been won but other battles continue to rage or surface.

Yes men can be feminists. They simply have to believe that it's wrong for someone to suffer prejudice based on their gender alone.

Being a woman on fab is a choice but not necessarily a feminist one nor is it anti feminist.

I dare say most people define feminism incorrectly.

Vague and contradictory

How so?

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"No, I don't consider myself a feminist. Modern feminism (both in academia and in practice) has subscribed to beliefs that I don't hold to be true. But I do believe in equality and women's rights to that equality and I act accordingly. "

Yes, i would say similar - I would never call myself a feminist, and I don't even use the word equality much, because I believe men and women are so different and so unequal in some ways. Equal pay for equal work - well of course, that's just fairness, not feminism. Equal rights to unequal equivalents - well no.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm a feminist when it suits me to be one

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

Sometimes a man is the only person for a job, penis model, front line armed forces. Even when I was a prison custody officer in a male prison there were some things I just couldn't do, I couldn't take a 6 foot 5 20 stone prisoner to hospital, he'd have been running away with me still cuffed to him.

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

Look up Corey Haim. Him and multiple men said they had been abused by hollywood types when children and were ignored.

Terry Crews said he had been sexually assaulted just recently.

Women giving blowjobs for jobs in Hollywood does not mean they are not equal. It means they are exactly equal with the men.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can you give me an example of the latter? I hear this a lot without examples, and would like to work through an example and understand why my gut reacts negatively to this type of postulation. My instinct is that it is potentially a misunderstanding of the concept of equal opportunity (you know where everyone says equal ops is treating everyone the same!) but I'm happy to listen and learn your examples.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

Good point, well made

You’d probably not find many male seamstresses or pole dancers. And 9/10 people working in the healthcare industry are female according to google

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By *atcherwankerMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

Do I think a scientist should be dragged through the mud for wearing an ugly shirt on tv? No. Do I think Weinstein should be dragged through broken glass for decades of (allegedly) abusing his power to get away with pressuring, threatening, coercing and outright assaulting women? Absolutely.

Whether or not you'd see me as a feminist depends very much on YOUR views and definition of feminism.

Personally, I absolutely 100% support equality. So yes, I consider myself a feminist.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

Good point, well made

You’d probably not find many male seamstresses or pole dancers. And 9/10 people working in the healthcare industry are female according to google "

Not many male seamstresses? I think there'd be a fair few tailors who'd disagree. I know many excellent male healthcare professionals -- it's exactly the patriarchal construct that hurts men as well as women by painting this idea that there are defined gender roles in some industries that really don't need to be, healthcare being one.

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By *atcherwankerMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

"I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

Good point, well made

You’d probably not find many male seamstresses or pole dancers. And 9/10 people working in the healthcare industry are female according to google "

I saw a male (male ASSIGNED, I probably should say, I think they may have been trans/non-binary) performer pole dancing as part of a burlesque routine. I've never, ever seen a female pole dance that well.

Kind of beside the point, but I thought I'd throw it in there.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

Good point, well made

You’d probably not find many male seamstresses or pole dancers. And 9/10 people working in the healthcare industry are female according to google

Hmmmmmmmmm seamstress....... tailor

speaks to me. speaks to me like cook and chef.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

For me feminism isn't about men being equal to women.

It's about people not being discriminated against because of their gender.

I get that if I wanted a cock model i'd choose a bloke with a good cock just like im not going to be manufacturing bras for blokes.... but lets say I wanted a cleaner or some other job that both males or females can be experienced in ...... gender shouldnt come into it.

Got to say I don't like finding a bloke cleaning the ladies tho ........ is that my age ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don't class myself as a feminist ... more a female who just pleases herself and does what works for me best!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes I most definitely am. I belive in equality

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

Good point, well made

You’d probably not find many male seamstresses or pole dancers. And 9/10 people working in the healthcare industry are female according to google

Aha yes, I’d forgotten about tailors! I was picturing little old ladies at sewing machines knocking up chintzy curtains

And yes, certainly the higher up the medical ladder you get more and more men in the job roles. Certainly at the level of nurses and hcas it’s a woman dominated role.

And yes, exotic dancers are definitely becoming more populated my male shows

Just goes to show- I’m trying (and failing) to make the point that gender inequality exists and you’re all pointing out (very rightly) that it’s not as obvious these days

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

It's mostly a question of the attitude I hear, the spirit behind some of the more strident proponents of feminism and the negative aspects I see, for instance denying the very real biological or psychological differences between the sexes, or judgement of more traditional views. I fear sometimes the baby is thrown out with the bathwater.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

Good point, well made

You’d probably not find many male seamstresses or pole dancers. And 9/10 people working in the healthcare industry are female according to google

Hmmmmmmmmm seamstress....... tailor

speaks to me. speaks to me like cook and chef. "

Yes, I didn't go into the labelling issues.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

Good point, well made

You’d probably not find many male seamstresses or pole dancers. And 9/10 people working in the healthcare industry are female according to google

Aha yes, I’d forgotten about tailors! I was picturing little old ladies at sewing machines knocking up chintzy curtains

And yes, certainly the higher up the medical ladder you get more and more men in the job roles. Certainly at the level of nurses and hcas it’s a woman dominated role.

And yes, exotic dancers are definitely becoming more populated my male shows

Just goes to show- I’m trying (and failing) to make the point that gender inequality exists and you’re all pointing out (very rightly) that it’s not as obvious these days

Ahh, I see what you meant now -- I read your post as if you meant those roles *should* be gender specific as in not open to all genders. I was challenging that aspect, but that's not what you meant I now see.

I agree there's a lot of inequality still in healthcare etc, I certainly wasn't meaning in my point that it is balanced just challenging the assumption that it should not be.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

Good point, well made

You’d probably not find many male seamstresses or pole dancers. And 9/10 people working in the healthcare industry are female according to google

Aha yes, I’d forgotten about tailors! I was picturing little old ladies at sewing machines knocking up chintzy curtains

And yes, certainly the higher up the medical ladder you get more and more men in the job roles. Certainly at the level of nurses and hcas it’s a woman dominated role.

And yes, exotic dancers are definitely becoming more populated my male shows

Just goes to show- I’m trying (and failing) to make the point that gender inequality exists and you’re all pointing out (very rightly) that it’s not as obvious these days

I agree there's a lot of inequality still in healthcare etc, I certainly wasn't meaning in my point that it is balanced just challenging the assumption that it should not be.

Ah sorry Estella, I’ve never been particularly good at explaining myself very well

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Okay, but that's yet to give me an example that I can work through to understand really...and my fear is that statements like this dilute the fairness (as the term you prefer) of what equality is and what we should be striving for. Also I don't really subscribe wholly to a binary interpretation of psychological difference.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've read stuff but I don't really j deestand the full meaning of feminism. Is it as simple as just equal rights for women as men?

Good point, well made

You’d probably not find many male seamstresses or pole dancers. And 9/10 people working in the healthcare industry are female according to google

Aha yes, I’d forgotten about tailors! I was picturing little old ladies at sewing machines knocking up chintzy curtains

And yes, certainly the higher up the medical ladder you get more and more men in the job roles. Certainly at the level of nurses and hcas it’s a woman dominated role.

And yes, exotic dancers are definitely becoming more populated my male shows

Just goes to show- I’m trying (and failing) to make the point that gender inequality exists and you’re all pointing out (very rightly) that it’s not as obvious these days

I agree there's a lot of inequality still in healthcare etc, I certainly wasn't meaning in my point that it is balanced just challenging the assumption that it should not be.

Ah sorry Estella, I’ve never been particularly good at explaining myself very well

Not so, words are always open to interpretation.

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington

"Just that really.

Have the feminist battles been won? Or does Harvey Weinstein show that nothing has really changed?

What does feminism mean to you?

Can men ever be feminists?

Is being a woman on Fab a feminist choice?

Yes, I am a feminist.

There's still work to be done.

It is very important to me - as is challenging all forms of inequality.

Men can be feminists.

It is my choice and I am a feminist, I'm not doing it for feminism per se. "
The problem is that there are layers of feminism, and waves within feminism. Add in the criticisms of the tendencies sometimes described as TERFS and SWERFs and it's a pretty broad church, and not always totally welcoming.

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By *orkie321bWoman
over a year ago

Nottingham

I wouldn't call myself a feminist, more of a humanist who wants proper equality for all groups I society.

Much of the feminist movement is quite militant and rather than wanting equality some actually seek female superiority. It's this that I definitely can't subscribe to.

I'm all for equal opportunities but I won't go so far as to want one group who have previously been subjugated to take over as the oppressors.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just that really.

Have the feminist battles been won? Or does Harvey Weinstein show that nothing has really changed?

What does feminism mean to you?

Can men ever be feminists?

Is being a woman on Fab a feminist choice?

Yes, I am a feminist.

There's still work to be done.

It is very important to me - as is challenging all forms of inequality.

Men can be feminists.

It is my choice and I am a feminist, I'm not doing it for feminism per se. The problem is that there are layers of feminism, and waves within feminism. Add in the criticisms of the tendencies sometimes described as TERFS and SWERFs and it's a pretty broad church, and not always totally welcoming.

Are you negating my answer by quoting me, or answering the OP?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Aha yes, I’d forgotten about tailors! I was picturing little old ladies at sewing machines knocking up chintzy curtains

Oi lexi...you leave them curtains alone

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

I get that - so I am sure we would disagree on what differences there are, and therefore what is appropriate,as would many feminists. It's a fairly subtle subject I am not prepared to discuss openly on a sex site, sorry.

In terms of practical outworking, whilst it may be obvious why front line troops and firemen are going to be predominantly male roles, it may be less so when it comes to other more cerebral activities and yet gender may indeed play a role in my opinion.

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"I wouldn't call myself a feminist, more of a humanist who wants proper equality for all groups I society.

Yes, I was going to say I would find that a more logical name - though of course humanism itself has a specific definition which would tend to preclude that lol!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Fair enough. I respectfully say I shall agree to disagree, I was just keen to understand an example, but that's okay. And maybe this is me, being as you said some do, "making a judgement of a traditional opinion" but I'm with the chief of London Fire Brigade in her request to "stop calling us 'firemen' because it's sexist" push...

Thanks for your replies. X

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I suppose many of my views and my ethos fall into the ‘feminist’ camp, but I believe it’s moved on from its original viewpoint. I’d like to, very optimistically, describe myself as an ‘equalist’ (which is already making me hold back the vomit at how pretentious it sounds).

I have a decent job, hard fought for and I don’t begrudge a moment of the fight. Twenty years ago I found myself justifying my existence in the workplace, but the armed forces were a teeny tad behind the equality curve. Yet I found myself genuinely flabbergasted a mere month ago to be confronted with a situation of blatant sexual harassment at work, I haven’t had to deal with that for at least ten years. So yes, there’s still room for improvement!

However, I’m not burning my bra for anyone, cutbacks to our emergency services mean the impending inferno could be devestating

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Aha yes, I’d forgotten about tailors! I was picturing little old ladies at sewing machines knocking up chintzy curtains

Oi lexi...you leave them curtains alone

Oh hello mistress

Sorry, I’m a huge fan of chintzy curtains really...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Here's an example of something that really turned me off the concept of modern feminism:

I was in a civil rights class in law school and we were having a debate about a specific US Supreme Court case. The case was very specific to U.S. law so I won't go into the specifics, but basically feminist groups were arguing that women were being discriminated against in the hiring process for high security male prisons. There were specific physical requirements required by the government to work in these prisons and the argument was that the requirements were de facto (not de jure) discrimination (because women generally can't meet the height, strength, etc requirements).

The arguments I heard from self-described feminists that women should have lower physical standards so that hiring was more equal stunned me a bit. I sometimes think we've gone a bit too far in certain aspects and I don't think the modern feminist movement is doing itself many favors by pushing issues like these. This is only one example...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Here's an example of something that really turned me off the concept of modern feminism:

Yes, on that summary I would agree that sounds a legitimate reason for there ending up being more men in role if women could not fulfil the actual requirements (or indeed a reason to suggest a male only role). But that doesn't mean I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Feminists to me are brown cardigan wearing angry women that hate men, so no I'm not one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Here's an example of something that really turned me off the concept of modern feminism:

I get what you mean and I competely understand why you'd want to continue describing yourself as a feminist.

But for me personally....I see a label like "feminist" as a signal to others. Because I don't like a lot of modern feminist theory, I choose not to signal my association with it by calling myself a feminist. If I had been asked the same question in the 90's I wouldn't have hesitated in calling myself a feminist. It's about context for me.

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

Yeah, that's the kind of PC thing you and I will never agree on lol! The majority will always be men, we all know the fire service contains women - it's simply not an issue that needs addressing in my mind - because there is no sexist intent behind it's use.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Here's an example of something that really turned me off the concept of modern feminism:

Yeah this is exactly the kind of thing that turns me right off it all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feminists to me are brown cardigan wearing angry women that hate men, so no I'm not one. "

I am a feminist. I love men. I have a brown cardigan. I am not angry.

You're 50% right. But 99% wrong.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Here's an example of something that really turned me off the concept of modern feminism:

I get what you mean and I competely understand why you'd want to continue describing yourself as a feminist.

Now *that* I understand. And yes, I'm happy to signal and then discuss -- as I like to be told I must think this and that etc and then explain nope, and what I personally subscribe to and stand for. Claiming the term back.

Swerfs and terfs get fucked.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Haha, yes -- we will disagree, because that's not quite the point she's making (for me language is important in how it sets scenes and invisible barriers for people) and I feel the same about pulling back words acceptable in use today that originate from discriminatory intent whether or not that's how the person n currently using it intends it to be or not (think lots of the mental health semantics). But yes, this is where we disagree.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feminists to me are brown cardigan wearing angry women that hate men, so no I'm not one.

I am a feminist. I love men. I have a brown cardigan. I am not angry.

You're 50% right. But 99% wrong.

I'm not saying that's what feminists are, just my thoughts of what the word means.

I realise it's wrong. I just think it's been taken over by the wrong types and made the whole thing 'bad'. Which is annoying really.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feminists to me are brown cardigan wearing angry women that hate men, so no I'm not one.

I am a feminist. I love men. I have a brown cardigan. I am not angry.

You're 50% right. But 99% wrong.

I'm not saying that's what feminists are, just my thoughts of what the word means.

I realise it's wrong. I just think it's been taken over by the wrong types and made the whole thing 'bad'. Which is annoying really."

I know, and I was only teasing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feminists to me are brown cardigan wearing angry women that hate men, so no I'm not one.

I am a feminist. I love men. I have a brown cardigan. I am not angry.

You're 50% right. But 99% wrong.

I'm not saying that's what feminists are, just my thoughts of what the word means.

I realise it's wrong. I just think it's been taken over by the wrong types and made the whole thing 'bad'. Which is annoying really.

I know, and I was only teasing. "

I know.

I wouldn't have dared mention the brown cardi thing if I'd known you were one of those.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feminists to me are brown cardigan wearing angry women that hate men, so no I'm not one.

I am a feminist. I love men. I have a brown cardigan. I am not angry.

You're 50% right. But 99% wrong.

I'm not saying that's what feminists are, just my thoughts of what the word means.

I realise it's wrong. I just think it's been taken over by the wrong types and made the whole thing 'bad'. Which is annoying really.

I know, and I was only teasing.

I know.

I wouldn't have dared mention the brown cardi thing if I'd known you were one of those.

I'm so going to take some pics of me in my cardi and post them up.

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By *uzz And WoodyCouple
over a year ago

Maidstone

I’m pro-women and pro-equality but many of the women/girls I know who consider themselves a feminist are actually wanting to be treated better than men, not equal to. And they’re usually angry with women who don’t consider themselves to be feminists, to me that contradicts their belief that women should have a voice and a choice. And they are usually more than happy for men to pay for them when they go out, treat them like princesses etc. It’s all very confusing and doesn’t really scream ‘strong, equal woman’ to me. Obviously this isn’t true for all feminists but it’s certaibly true for many I know and for that reason I am definitely not a feminist. Mrs x

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By *ature studentsCouple
over a year ago

Near Bournemouth Dorset.

An as for feminism we have come far. Still a big gap in wages . An I’m noticing with the youth of today seems to mean if a woman can hit a man, you can hit her back as an equal.

Has anyone else noticed that. "

Sorry but the wage gap has been proved time and again a fallacy.

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By *uzz And WoodyCouple
over a year ago

Maidstone

I’m not sure if I qualify or not but what I do find disturbing is the amount of women on here chatting. The laundry ain’t gonna iron itself you know.

Mr x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

An as for feminism we have come far. Still a big gap in wages . An I’m noticing with the youth of today seems to mean if a woman can hit a man, you can hit her back as an equal.

Has anyone else noticed that.

Sorry but the wage gap has been proved time and again a fallacy.

No. It hasn't. It's a complex topic but it's not been proven to be a fallacy.

Phallacy maybe.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I thought I was once..then I started thinking about it and then it got very confusing so have decided I'd like to just think of everyone as about the same and leave it at that

I'm a personist

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By *ature studentsCouple
over a year ago

Near Bournemouth Dorset.

"I wouldn't call myself a feminist, more of a humanist who wants proper equality for all groups I society.

Much of the feminist movement is quite militant and rather than wanting equality some actually seek female superiority. It's this that I definitely can't subscribe to.

I'm all for equal opportunities but I won't go so far as to want one group who have previously been subjugated to take over as the oppressors."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't believe in equality but I'm a big believer in equality of opportunity.

Women haven't even got equality amongst women so why there picking on men is anyone's guess.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't believe in equality but I'm a big believer in equality of opportunity.

Women haven't even got equality amongst women so why there picking on men is anyone's guess.

No one’s picking on anyone

*they’re

Except me, I’m picking on you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm a feminist, vegan, cross-fit athlete and I vape

Problem?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't believe in equality but I'm a big believer in equality of opportunity.

Women haven't even got equality amongst women so why there picking on men is anyone's guess.

No one’s picking on anyone

*they’re

Except me, I’m picking on you

"
.

Aghhh your just bringing back my mother anxieties as a child, could never please her either

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By *heIcebreakersCouple
over a year ago

Cramlington

"Just that really.

Have the feminist battles been won? Or does Harvey Weinstein show that nothing has really changed?

What does feminism mean to you?

Can men ever be feminists?

Is being a woman on Fab a feminist choice?

Yes, I am a feminist.

There's still work to be done.

It is very important to me - as is challenging all forms of inequality.

Men can be feminists.

Are you negating my answer by quoting me, or answering the OP? "

Certainly not negating you - I didn't realise these debates were so binary. I was just observing that feminism covers a pretty wide spectrum right now, not all of it entirely edifying.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm a feminist, vegan, cross-fit athlete and I vape

Problem?"
.

Try to be less cross about it?

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By *ature studentsCouple
over a year ago

Near Bournemouth Dorset.

An as for feminism we have come far. Still a big gap in wages . An I’m noticing with the youth of today seems to mean if a woman can hit a man, you can hit her back as an equal.

Has anyone else noticed that.

Sorry but the wage gap has been proved time and again a fallacy.

No. It hasn't. It's a complex topic but it's not been proven to be a fallacy.

Phallacy maybe. "

Oops I did type phallacy but my auto correct decided to change it for some reason

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm a feminist, vegan, cross-fit athlete and I vape

Problem?"

Seems like you expect there to be one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't believe in equality but I'm a big believer in equality of opportunity.

Women haven't even got equality amongst women so why there picking on men is anyone's guess.

No one’s picking on anyone

*they’re

Except me, I’m picking on you

Aghhh your just bringing back my mother anxieties as a child, could never please her either

Oh god, I’m so sorry, didn’t mean to bring up all that unhappiness for you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm a feminist, vegan, cross-fit athlete and I vape

Problem?"

As a man, how do you identify as a feminist? Are your views similar to those of lady feminists? Or do you see things a bit differently because you’re a chap?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm a feminist, vegan, cross-fit athlete and I vape

Problem?

As a man, how do you identify as a feminist? Are your views similar to those of lady feminists? Or do you see things a bit differently because you’re a chap?"

It was just banter

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just that really.

Have the feminist battles been won? Or does Harvey Weinstein show that nothing has really changed?

What does feminism mean to you?

Can men ever be feminists?

Is being a woman on Fab a feminist choice?

Yes, I am a feminist.

There's still work to be done.

It is very important to me - as is challenging all forms of inequality.

Men can be feminists.

Are you negating my answer by quoting me, or answering the OP?

Certainly not negating you - I didn't realise these debates were so binary. I was just observing that feminism covers a pretty wide spectrum right now, not all of it entirely edifying."

Ah good, and I don't disagree. I was just wondering as you replied to my post telling me "what the problem was", I was just seeking clarification if the problem was with my post. I always ask so I'm clear. I see now you were answering the OP, not asking me a question etc. I qualify, if asked -- thanks for clarifying, there was no binary in my asking your intent by the way, I was seeking clarity.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm a feminist, vegan, cross-fit athlete and I vape

Problem?

As a man, how do you identify as a feminist? Are your views similar to those of lady feminists? Or do you see things a bit differently because you’re a chap?

It was just banter"

Oh right. Do you not do CrossFit either

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't believe in equality but I'm a big believer in equality of opportunity.

Women haven't even got equality amongst women so why there picking on men is anyone's guess.

No one’s picking on anyone

*they’re

Except me, I’m picking on you

Aghhh your just bringing back my mother anxieties as a child, could never please her either

Oh god, I’m so sorry, didn’t mean to bring up all that unhappiness for you.

"
.

That's alright you don't have to call me God, although getting on your knees is optional

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm a feminist, vegan, cross-fit athlete and I vape

Problem?"

Do you have a brown cardi?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

An as for feminism we have come far. Still a big gap in wages . An I’m noticing with the youth of today seems to mean if a woman can hit a man, you can hit her back as an equal.

Has anyone else noticed that.

Sorry but the wage gap has been proved time and again a fallacy.

No. It hasn't. It's a complex topic but it's not been proven to be a fallacy.

Phallacy maybe.

Oops I did type phallacy but my auto correct decided to change it for some reason

No, no! Fallacy was the word you were looking for (despite me stating you're wrong) my use of phallacy was a phallic joke -- given the topic.

Still a wage gap though btw.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm a feminist, vegan, cross-fit athlete and I vape

Problem?

Do you have a brown cardi?"
.

No just a nose

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't believe in equality but I'm a big believer in equality of opportunity.

Women haven't even got equality amongst women so why there picking on men is anyone's guess.

No one’s picking on anyone

*they’re

Except me, I’m picking on you

Aghhh your just bringing back my mother anxieties as a child, could never please her either

Oh god, I’m so sorry, didn’t mean to bring up all that unhappiness for you.

That's alright you don't have to call me God, although getting on your knees is optional

Hmm my knees aren’t what they once more. How about I sit cross legged?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I do not consider myself to be a feminist. I do of course believe in equal rights with the law, and equal opportunities. But most rational people in this day and age in western culture believe in equality on that level - that's just normal. Where I fall short of feminist values is that I have absalutely no problem if a man wishes to pay for me on dates, hold doors for me etc, and I have no issue with 'traditional' roles in the home (although I do work). I guess it's fair to say I like the old fashioned etiquette between men and women, and I feel comfortable with the old fashioned concept of a man being a man and woman being a woman.

Mrs

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By *aughtyLondonGuyMan
over a year ago

london

I always have been, I have so much respect for the female race. It’s awful have some men act around woman

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I always have been, I have so much respect for the female race. It’s awful have some men act around woman"

Do you think that’s necessarily a feminist issue?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I want doors held open for me.

I want to be wolf whistled at when I walk past a building site. I don't want to pay or go Dutch if invited out for dinner. But if I did a job the same as a man I would want the same wage.

So no I'm not a feminist unless the situation rewards me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't believe in equality but I'm a big believer in equality of opportunity.

Women haven't even got equality amongst women so why there picking on men is anyone's guess.

No one’s picking on anyone

*they’re

Except me, I’m picking on you

Aghhh your just bringing back my mother anxieties as a child, could never please her either

Oh god, I’m so sorry, didn’t mean to bring up all that unhappiness for you.

That's alright you don't have to call me God, although getting on your knees is optional

Hmm my knees aren’t what they once more. How about I sit cross legged?"
.

Sure, let me just get my

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I want doors held open for me.

I want to be wolf whistled at when I walk past a building site. I don't want to pay or go Dutch if invited out for dinner. But if I did a job the same as a man I would want the same wage.

So no I'm not a feminist unless the situation rewards me "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm going down the pub to get pissed (fuck school).

If any women wanna join me in my male dominated hobby of propping bars up just whistle

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm going down the pub to get pissed (fuck school).

If any women wanna join me in my male dominated hobby of propping bars up just whistle

Have fun

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant. "

That's one of the reasons I don't consider myself to be a feminist. I enjoy old-fashioned differences in etiquette expectations. I know they are daft and unnecessary, and women are perfectly capable of holding doors or picking up the tab. But I just like these unnecessary traditions associated with etiquette which define a difference between men and women.

Mrs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant. "

Of course I hold doors open for people entering and leaving rooms or shops etc but I'm talking about being treated more some would say in an old fashioned way. I've seen women be insulted when a man's stood up for them for them on the train and offered their seat.

I'm a big believer in pink and blue roles within a household but that's my choice and opinion but I do respect every one else's as this is just the way I like to live my life and wouldn't force it on anyone who didn't want it.

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By *aughtyLondonGuyMan
over a year ago

london

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

I do still stand upon the Tube for a lady but I don’t think that’s being sexist. Whilst I class myself as a feminist I do still like the old fashioned approach

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant. "

I always think that if a man holds a door open for a 'feminist' she will go slightly deranged and yell at him that she's perfectly capable of opening a door for herself and how dare he assume she's too weak... etc etc.

I think the term 'feminist' has taken on a new, bad, meaning.

(I hold the doors for everyone.)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

I think the term 'feminist' has taken on a new, bad, meaning.

(I hold the doors for everyone.)"

I'm going to controversial (on purpose), people (myself included before anyone misinterprets my reason for the analogy) are very quick to say we shouldn't smear all Muslims with those who are extremists -- should we do the same for feminists? I also understand it's not an exact comparison but I'm not prepared to give up my use of the word feminist simply because some iterations have become too extreme.

My concern is that a feminist has to defend the aspects she does/doesn't subscribe to, but we don't necessarily push the same for asking if those liking the traditional roles also subscribe to (again I'm being controversial to make a point only) say wife-beating or other less lovely antiquities of a time gone.

Again, I also agree what anyone wants to enjoy is absolutely their preference, that for me is feminism -- getting to have that choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

I think the term 'feminist' has taken on a new, bad, meaning.

(I hold the doors for everyone.)

Again, I also agree what anyone wants to enjoy is absolutely their preference, that for me is feminism -- getting to have that choice. "

to be*

(forgive my typos!)

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

if it means having a healthy balanced interest in Women’s and Men’s equal rights then I suppose I am.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

I think the term 'feminist' has taken on a new, bad, meaning.

(I hold the doors for everyone.)

Again, I also agree what anyone wants to enjoy is absolutely their preference, that for me is feminism -- getting to have that choice. "

I actually agree with your Muslim comparison.

Just to throw something back on it though. There are something like 85,000 penetrative assaults (I'm not allowed to post the word!) in the UK each year and countless assaults (#metro shows us that), should all men be doing more to counteract a r@pe culture?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 24/10/17 20:55:08]

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Yes. It amazes me that anyone isn't and the question needs to be asked

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

I think that's very fair! There doesn't exist a movement/political idea/philosophy that hasn't been taken too far or abused by someone.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

I think the term 'feminist' has taken on a new, bad, meaning.

(I hold the doors for everyone.)

Again, I also agree what anyone wants to enjoy is absolutely their preference, that for me is feminism -- getting to have that choice. "

You must have noticed that I like controversial.

I get what you're saying, probably the same way I won't ever say I'm a Swinger (because I won't shag everything that breathes!).

I think my point is that people may well be feminists, they just don't like the term. Or the idea (right or wrong) of what it means.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Yes. It amazes me that anyone isn't and the question needs to be asked "

I'm not. I'm a bloke. I'm sympathetic to some of the aims however saying I'm a feminist has echoes of Rachel Dolezal.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If by that you mean that men and women should have exactly the same opportunities and options, yes I am. But, and this shouldn't negate the above, men and women are gloriously different.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

I think the term 'feminist' has taken on a new, bad, meaning.

(I hold the doors for everyone.)

Again, I also agree what anyone wants to enjoy is absolutely their preference, that for me is feminism -- getting to have that choice.

I actually agree with your Muslim comparison.

I keep re-reading your last paragraph but I'm not clear on the point you're making exactly (so rather than assume) can you clarify? I understand the word you were avoiding but I'm not sure where you're going with it?

Or are you suggesting that I'm saying that only "traditional binary gender values" men (that's a new catchy phrase I've come up with!!) are perpetrating sexual assaults? I'm not saying that in the slightest.

But let me ask, what point were you making?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

I think the term 'feminist' has taken on a new, bad, meaning.

(I hold the doors for everyone.)

Again, I also agree what anyone wants to enjoy is absolutely their preference, that for me is feminism -- getting to have that choice.

You must have noticed that I like controversial.

I get what you're saying, probably the same way I won't ever say I'm a Swinger (because I won't shag everything that breathes!).

I think my point is that people may well be feminists, they just don't like the term. Or the idea (right or wrong) of what it means. "

But that's where education comes in, surely?

*puts on her one-person band outfit and reclaims the word feminist through a cymbal, large drum and guitar combo performance*

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

I think the term 'feminist' has taken on a new, bad, meaning.

(I hold the doors for everyone.)

Again, I also agree what anyone wants to enjoy is absolutely their preference, that for me is feminism -- getting to have that choice.

I actually agree with your Muslim comparison.

But let me ask, what point were you making?"

Sorry!

I'm not saying only men are perpetrating the offences (although in the case of r@pe, in the uk, it has to involve a penis) however the vast majority of sexual assaults are by men.

Should all men be doing more to reduce this? Should we be campaigning? Should we be pulling up mates for jokes about it?

Or is it acceptable that most men say, 'Well I'm not doing it so it not my problem.'?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If by that you mean that men and women should have exactly the same opportunities and options, yes I am. But, and this shouldn't negate the above, men and women are gloriously different.

It's people misunderstanding the words equality, equal opportunity, diversity, old fashioned manners, courtesy/etiquette etc. They don't have to be in tension with each other.

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By *ink Panther.Woman
over a year ago

Preston

I think I’m the worst type of feminist, I become one when it suits me. I know this is an appalling attitude to have and I’m actually embarrassed to admit it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

I think the term 'feminist' has taken on a new, bad, meaning.

(I hold the doors for everyone.)

Again, I also agree what anyone wants to enjoy is absolutely their preference, that for me is feminism -- getting to have that choice.

I actually agree with your Muslim comparison.

But let me ask, what point were you making?

Sorry!

I'm not saying only men are perpetrating the offences (although in the case of r@pe, in the uk, it has to involve a penis) however the vast majority of sexual assaults are by men.

Should all men be doing more to reduce this? Should we be campaigning? Should we be pulling up mates for jokes about it?

Or is it acceptable that most men say, 'Well I'm not doing it so it not my problem.'? "

Ahh I see. I wasn't understanding how it was a push back on my point, but it wasn't -- it was a new discussion, back to the issues arising with HW case.

I posted a slightly weighty comment I'd read elsewhere by a chap that summarised some of my thinking on this on Steelheels thread t'other day -- I'll pop a link in a second.

In short, yes. It's for everyone to call out these issues. If you're silent, you're on the side of the oppressor.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think I’m the worst type of feminist, I become one when it suits me. I know this is an appalling attitude to have and I’m actually embarrassed to admit it

It's easily done, and honest to own that it is what you do.

Not okay though! *feminist slaps you*

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By *ink Panther.Woman
over a year ago

Preston

"I think I’m the worst type of feminist, I become one when it suits me. I know this is an appalling attitude to have and I’m actually embarrassed to admit it

It's easily done, and honest to own that it is what you do.

Not okay though! *feminist slaps you*

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OP, the comment was right at the bottom of this thread:

https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/689938

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By *igeiaWoman
over a year ago

Bristol

Yes. I'm a feminist because I am an equalist. And as a female egalitarian the inequality that I experience most often in my own life is that based on gender. So I often choose to challenge it.

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"......

But wife beating has always been abuse. There are plenty more 'traditional' values that are mutually supportive and respectful, and yet they are scorned by feminists and those who support them judged.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"I'm a feminist, vegan, cross-fit athlete and I vape

Problem?"

Yes. There is no excuse for kipping pull ups.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"......

Scorned by *some* feminists, maybe. Not all. And disagreeing isn't always scorn either.

My point was in the same way that if someone says they are a feminist they get thrown in the same group with those that believe in females being superior to males or this that are transphobic or so on. I was just using a parallel that is equally absurd.

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By *ature studentsCouple
over a year ago

Near Bournemouth Dorset.

An as for feminism we have come far. Still a big gap in wages . An I’m noticing with the youth of today seems to mean if a woman can hit a man, you can hit her back as an equal.

Has anyone else noticed that.

Sorry but the wage gap has been proved time and again a fallacy.

No. It hasn't. It's a complex topic but it's not been proven to be a fallacy.

Phallacy maybe.

Oops I did type phallacy but my auto correct decided to change it for some reason

No, no! Fallacy was the word you were looking for (despite me stating you're wrong) my use of phallacy was a phallic joke -- given the topic.

Still a wage gap though btw. "

Hourly not so much of a gap. Weekly is a different story as more women work part time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"......

Wife beating was socially acceptable in the western world well into the late last century. Marital r£pe wasn’t illegal until 1991.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"......

Scorned by *some* feminists, maybe. Not all. And disagreeing isn't always scorn either.

those that*

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

An as for feminism we have come far. Still a big gap in wages . An I’m noticing with the youth of today seems to mean if a woman can hit a man, you can hit her back as an equal.

Has anyone else noticed that.

Sorry but the wage gap has been proved time and again a fallacy.

No. It hasn't. It's a complex topic but it's not been proven to be a fallacy.

Phallacy maybe.

Oops I did type phallacy but my auto correct decided to change it for some reason

No, no! Fallacy was the word you were looking for (despite me stating you're wrong) my use of phallacy was a phallic joke -- given the topic.

Still a wage gap though btw.

Hourly not so much of a gap. Weekly is a different story as more women work part time. "

Far too simplistic.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

(I do hope I'm not coming across as an angry feminist here, I'm genuinely enjoying discussing and if I've overstayed my welcome on your thread, OP -- do let me know!)

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

"(I do hope I'm not coming across as an angry feminist here, I'm genuinely enjoying discussing and if I've overstayed my welcome on your thread, OP -- do let me know!)

Haven’t you got a bra to burn somewhere?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"(I do hope I'm not coming across as an angry feminist here, I'm genuinely enjoying discussing and if I've overstayed my welcome on your thread, OP -- do let me know!)

Haven’t you got a bra to burn somewhere?

My boobs are too big not to have scaffolding. Although I am a pyromaniac -- love a fire, me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I support feminism but I don't like many feminists.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If by that you mean that men and women should have exactly the same opportunities and options, yes I am. But, and this shouldn't negate the above, men and women are gloriously different.

It's people misunderstanding the words equality, equal opportunity, diversity, old fashioned manners, courtesy/etiquette etc. They don't have to be in tension with each other. "

Not sure if I've been chided or not!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If by that you mean that men and women should have exactly the same opportunities and options, yes I am. But, and this shouldn't negate the above, men and women are gloriously different.

It's people misunderstanding the words equality, equal opportunity, diversity, old fashioned manners, courtesy/etiquette etc. They don't have to be in tension with each other.

Not sure if I've been chided or not!

Haha. Not

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"(I do hope I'm not coming across as an angry feminist here, I'm genuinely enjoying discussing and if I've overstayed my welcome on your thread, OP -- do let me know!)

Not at all! I'm enjoying reading your comments!

Nice to have a proper discussion on here for a change.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If by that you mean that men and women should have exactly the same opportunities and options, yes I am. But, and this shouldn't negate the above, men and women are gloriously different.

It's people misunderstanding the words equality, equal opportunity, diversity, old fashioned manners, courtesy/etiquette etc. They don't have to be in tension with each other.

Not sure if I've been chided or not!

Haha. Not

Think I'm a bit disappointed that you wasn't!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"(I do hope I'm not coming across as an angry feminist here, I'm genuinely enjoying discussing and if I've overstayed my welcome on your thread, OP -- do let me know!)

Not at all! I'm enjoying reading your comments!

Nice to have a proper discussion on here for a change."

Same to you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Look how bad sweden is by having feminists governing it lol.

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"......

Scorned by *some* feminists, maybe. Not all. And disagreeing isn't always scorn either.

Yes I can perceive the difference between disagreement and scorn. It would be interesting to see the relative percentages in the core beliefs of those who call themselves feminists, views may be skewed as the most extreme are often the most vociferous.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If by that you mean that men and women should have exactly the same opportunities and options, yes I am. But, and this shouldn't negate the above, men and women are gloriously different.

It's people misunderstanding the words equality, equal opportunity, diversity, old fashioned manners, courtesy/etiquette etc. They don't have to be in tension with each other.

Not sure if I've been chided or not!

Haha. Not

Think I'm a bit disappointed that you wasn't!

How come?

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By *arciocialWoman
over a year ago

Leicester

Yes I am a feminist. Not ashamed to say I am one either. Too many people believe what they see in the media, read articles from feminists that are still fighting and get a real insight in to what they're doing.

Feminism is still needed of course it is, all you have to see is the House of Parliament and inequality in businesses and annual income to know its a battle that will be around for a long time yet.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"......

Scorned by *some* feminists, maybe. Not all. And disagreeing isn't always scorn either.

Yes, it would. It's why I drew the Muslim parallel, I don't think the extremists outnumber those that are for equality for all. But my concern is that extremists prevent people wanting to own feminism as equality driven and that actually hinders things greatly. But I'm not in that statement challenging your view as I'm understanding more tonight that you're not necessarily agreeing that there should be equality due to differences between the genders. Sorry if that oversimplified your viewpoint but that's what I've understood without deeper explanation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Feminist definition, advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. See more.

You can't go making up your own definitions, just have your own opinions

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feminist definition, advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. See more.

You can't go making up your own definitions, just have your own opinions"

So who made that definition?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feminist definition, advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. See more.

You can't go making up your own definitions, just have your own opinions"

In that case I would imagine every single contributor to this thread is a feminist.

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By *arciocialWoman
over a year ago

Leicester

"Feminist definition, advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. See more.

You can't go making up your own definitions, just have your own opinions

In that case I would imagine every single contributor to this thread is a feminist. "

Pretty much every woman would be a feminist, because that is what a feminist is (in the basic of forms) but very few admit to it due to the dramatisation portrayed in the media.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If by that you mean that men and women should have exactly the same opportunities and options, yes I am. But, and this shouldn't negate the above, men and women are gloriously different.

It's people misunderstanding the words equality, equal opportunity, diversity, old fashioned manners, courtesy/etiquette etc. They don't have to be in tension with each other.

Not sure if I've been chided or not!

Haha. Not

Think I'm a bit disappointed that you wasn't!

How come?"

Think I'd might quite like you telling me off!

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By *rincess peachWoman
over a year ago

shits creek

I'm an everyoneist.

Unless you're a cunt, I'm very much anti cunt. As in the person, not the vagina.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

You've never met a man that thinks women footballers can't justify being paid as much as men?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feminist definition, advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. See more.

You can't go making up your own definitions, just have your own opinions

So who made that definition? "

That particular one is dictionary.com but other recognised dictionaries are likely to be similar. The interesting thing is that it's not gender specific as to who can be a feminist.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

You've never met a man that thinks women footballers can't justify being paid as much as men?"
.

. Yes me.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"I do not consider myself to be a feminist. I do of course believe in equal rights with the law, and equal opportunities. But most rational people in this day and age in western culture believe in equality on that level - that's just normal. Where I fall short of feminist values is that I have absalutely no problem if a man wishes to pay for me on dates, hold doors for me etc, and I have no issue with 'traditional' roles in the home (although I do work). I guess it's fair to say I like the old fashioned etiquette between men and women, and I feel comfortable with the old fashioned concept of a man being a man and woman being a woman.

Mrs"

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

You've never met a man that thinks women footballers can't justify being paid as much as men?.

. Yes me.

So work backwards from that. The reasons women don't (in your eyes) justify an equal wage in sport are the consequences of many of the factors that answer your previous question.

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"Feminist definition, advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. See more.

You can't go making up your own definitions, just have your own opinions"

And yet words become loaded beyond their original definition so that we choose to no longer wish to be associated with them sometimes, like pc in reverse.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feminist definition, advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. See more.

You can't go making up your own definitions, just have your own opinions

In that case I would imagine every single contributor to this thread is a feminist.

Pretty much every woman would be a feminist, because that is what a feminist is (in the basic of forms) but very few admit to it due to the dramatisation portrayed in the media."

But then if every woman is a feminist there is no need for the word. And I'm sure everybody on this thread would also support men who are in receipt of unfair treatment compared to women. Fathers fighting for their rights to see their children is an example. But we wouldn't call ourselves masculininists for supporting men's rights.

Mrs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

You've never met a man that thinks women footballers can't justify being paid as much as men?.

. Yes me.

So work backwards from that. The reasons women don't (in your eyes) justify an equal wage in sport are the consequences of many of the factors that answer your previous question."
.

Well that's an opinion,I mean sure you could pay women footballers as much as men but where would the money come from?.

I hate to be a stickler for detail but we live in a capitalist society, wages are relevant to your income stream, for instance, one of the top MMA fighter wage is earnt by a woman!.

It's not sexist, she just brings in big bucks

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

Oh gosh there's so many current policies I'd change for so many reasons.

As a quick one I'd improve our paternity rights in this country. And I'm saying that one in particular as many people assume feminism is about pulling men down.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"There are some things being noted as non-feminist such as liking having a door opened for one (as an example).

I hold doors open for men and women, I enjoy them being held open for me - by men and women.

Do I think only men should open doors for women? That's daft, in my opinion.

For me, holding a door open is common courtesy and gender-irrelevant.

I think the term 'feminist' has taken on a new, bad, meaning.

(I hold the doors for everyone.)"

Im a feminist. I say thank you when people open doors for me. I don't mention their cock either. I also hold doors open for anyone......... anyone. It's just manners.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Mrs

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose. "

The right to choose has nothing to do with only women. Both men and women have the right to choose, so why is it called feminism? I don't get that. Men and women are supposed to have equal rights, but the focus is only on women rights? That's not equal.

Mrs

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"......

Scorned by *some* feminists, maybe. Not all. And disagreeing isn't always scorn either.

Sadly you have misunderstood. My point is that feminists go beyond equality to a destruction or denial or scorn for valuable gender differences.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

Oh gosh there's so many current policies I'd change for so many reasons.

As a quick one I'd improve our paternity rights in this country. And I'm saying that one in particular as many people assume feminism is about pulling men down.

I'm pleased you said that because I do prefer being pulled up!

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By *iSTARessWoman
over a year ago

London

Absolutely.

Until women here and abroad have equal rights, everyone should be.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

Oh gosh there's so many current policies I'd change for so many reasons.

As a quick one I'd improve our paternity rights in this country. And I'm saying that one in particular as many people assume feminism is about pulling men down.

"
.

Ok, so what's it currently at, what do you want to strengthen it by and how will that help?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

You've never met a man that thinks women footballers can't justify being paid as much as men?.

. Yes me.

So work backwards from that. The reasons women don't (in your eyes) justify an equal wage in sport are the consequences of many of the factors that answer your previous question..

Well that's an opinion,I mean sure you could pay women footballers as much as men but where would the money come from?.

I hate to be a stickler for detail but we live in a capitalist society, wages are relevant to your income stream, for instance, one of the top MMA fighter wage is earnt by a woman!.

It's not sexist, she just brings in big bucks"

No you missed the point completely.

Why is that women are not able to get to a position whereby they could command an equal salary?

A few things: lack of role models, the structure of PE, crap standard of junior competitions, rules preventing them competing in male competitions (even if able) and so on and so on.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

Mrs

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose.

Mrs"

I never said it was only women that could choose.

I said feminism recognises the right to choose.

Being a feminist doesn't mean you can't choose to be a homemaker a mother or have a male partner who is the wage earning dominant

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Mrs

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose. "

I don't really get how this point gets so misunderstood.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Mrs

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose.

Mrs

I never said it was only women that could choose.

I said feminism recognises the right to choose.

Being a feminist doesn't mean you can't choose to be a homemaker a mother or have a male partner who is the wage earning dominant "

In that case I think there should be a gender neutral word to recognise equal rights and the right to choose.

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By *ature studentsCouple
over a year ago

Near Bournemouth Dorset.

"Yes I am a feminist. Not ashamed to say I am one either. Too many people believe what they see in the media, read articles from feminists that are still fighting and get a real insight in to what they're doing.

Feminism is still needed of course it is, all you have to see is the House of Parliament and inequality in businesses and annual income to know its a battle that will be around for a long time yet."

The gap in annual wages is down to women working part time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"......

Scorned by *some* feminists, maybe. Not all. And disagreeing isn't always scorn either.

Sadly you have misunderstood. My point is that feminists go beyond equality to a destruction or denial or scorn for valuable gender differences."

Says you. I disagree. And without an example given, when asked -- your points (beyond tarring all feminists with extremist viewpoints)

don't make sense to me beyond the definition I have surmised. Sorry.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

You've never met a man that thinks women footballers can't justify being paid as much as men?.

. Yes me.

So work backwards from that. The reasons women don't (in your eyes) justify an equal wage in sport are the consequences of many of the factors that answer your previous question..

Well that's an opinion,I mean sure you could pay women footballers as much as men but where would the money come from?.

I hate to be a stickler for detail but we live in a capitalist society, wages are relevant to your income stream, for instance, one of the top MMA fighter wage is earnt by a woman!.

It's not sexist, she just brings in big bucks

No you missed the point completely.

Why is that women are not able to get to a position whereby they could command an equal salary?

A few things: lack of role models, the structure of PE, crap standard of junior competitions, rules preventing them competing in male competitions (even if able) and so on and so on."
.

The woman MMA fighter does have equal pay, in fact she's one of the best paid.

Rules for competing in male competitions?...I don't follow, do you want to get rid of female male competitions at the Olympics, football, just schools, juniors?.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Feminism is still needed of course it is, all you have to see is the House of Parliament and inequality in businesses and annual income to know its a battle that will be around for a long time yet.

The gap in annual wages is down to women working part time."

An oversimplified misconstruction.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So basically we have a problem that we can't define and nobody has any clue how to fix in any rational way

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

I've decided to take Huxley's advice and stop canalising where there is no water.

I'll just leave all the other hairy legged bitches to it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Men can't stand these types of quandaries.... It drives us nuts

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

You've never met a man that thinks women footballers can't justify being paid as much as men?.

. Yes me.

So work backwards from that. The reasons women don't (in your eyes) justify an equal wage in sport are the consequences of many of the factors that answer your previous question..

Well that's an opinion,I mean sure you could pay women footballers as much as men but where would the money come from?.

I hate to be a stickler for detail but we live in a capitalist society, wages are relevant to your income stream, for instance, one of the top MMA fighter wage is earnt by a woman!.

It's not sexist, she just brings in big bucks

No you missed the point completely.

Why is that women are not able to get to a position whereby they could command an equal salary?

A few things: lack of role models, the structure of PE, crap standard of junior competitions, rules preventing them competing in male competitions (even if able) and so on and so on..

The woman MMA fighter does have equal pay, in fact she's one of the best paid.

Rules for competing in male competitions?...I don't follow, do you want to get rid of female male competitions at the Olympics, football, just schools, juniors?.

Sigh. No, I don't want to!

This is the reality already. Girls are removed from many sports at an age when they are very able to compete equally but from that point onwards they unsurprisingly fall behind.

One example of a woman doing well in a sport hardly excuses all the other expels where women are not able to get to a point of equality.

Of course there are other factors too - not least the attitudes of people that watch certain sports.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Mrs

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose.

I don't really get how this point gets so misunderstood.

I think it's more misrepresented than misunderstood. I think that many women who call themselves feminists today have done a real disservice to the cause they claim to support by injecting beliefs that aren't consistent with the original values of the movement. People aren't misunderstanding - it's more that feminism has been changing (at least it's offshoots and public image have).

Reclaimation, which you mentioned earlier, would do feminism lot of good. But it can't be denied that plenty of self described feminists believe exactly what was written above. If other feminists disagree, that's great, but it's a splinter in the movement not a misunderstanding. And in order to be productive, such movements have to be clear and pointed. I think feminism has lost that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Mrs

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose.

Mrs"

That's misunderstanding the whole concept of a patriarchal society.

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

Mrs

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose.

Mrs

I never said it was only women that could choose.

I said feminism recognises the right to choose.

Being a feminist doesn't mean you can't choose to be a homemaker a mother or have a male partner who is the wage earning dominant

In that case I think there should be a gender neutral word to recognise equal rights and the right to choose. "

Point lol!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've decided to take Huxley's advice and stop canalising where there is no water.

I'll just leave all the other hairy legged bitches to it.

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By *arciocialWoman
over a year ago

Leicester

"Feminist definition, advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. See more.

You can't go making up your own definitions, just have your own opinions

In that case I would imagine every single contributor to this thread is a feminist.

Pretty much every woman would be a feminist, because that is what a feminist is (in the basic of forms) but very few admit to it due to the dramatisation portrayed in the media.

Mrs"

Some men claim to be feminists and some feminists argue they can't be, they would state they are supporters of feminism. The word has derived from decades ago, when women were treated a lot more unfairly, unequal than they are now. I believe people still feel the need for the term, because it covers an entire area of what they are trying to improve on, as inequality between the genders is still so apparent. Whilst I'm a feminist, I see myself as a n intersectionality feminist.

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"......

Scorned by *some* feminists, maybe. Not all. And disagreeing isn't always scorn either.

Sadly you have misunderstood. My point is that feminists go beyond equality to a destruction or denial or scorn for valuable gender differences.

Says you. I disagree. And without an example given, when asked -- your points (beyond tarring all feminists with extremist viewpoints)

don't make sense to me beyond the definition I have surmised. Sorry. "

Regardless, you have misunderstood and now misrepresent me.

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By *arciocialWoman
over a year ago

Leicester

Feminism is still needed of course it is, all you have to see is the House of Parliament and inequality in businesses and annual income to know its a battle that will be around for a long time yet.

The gap in annual wages is down to women working part time."

When they compare wages, they do so based on the job, hours, holiday etc. They don't compare a full time workers hours to a part time hours, that would be unjustifiable.

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

Mrs

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose.

I don't really get how this point gets so misunderstood.

Exactly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Mrs

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose.

Mrs

That's misunderstanding the whole concept of a patriarchal society. "

I guess my experience of life is that we don't live in a patriarchal society. Admittedly I haven't studied the statistics or research on job inequalities so I'm not in a position to comment. I work in a public sector predominantly female profession, but the few men are on identical salaries to their female counterparts. My husband, who works in a private business, had to interview a selection of people and was told to he had to hire a woman to satisfy HR. I personally would prefer to live in a world where the best person for the job is offered the job. And the paternity rights for men are absalutely abhorrent. I don't doubt that there are inequalities in favour of men, but there are also inequalities in favour of women.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Mrs

Feminism is not about who cooks and who earns or who opens doors.

Feminism recognises the right to choose.

I don't really get how this point gets so misunderstood.

I don't disagree, C. I don't think I've personally denied any of those splinter groups. I just think it hinders everything to diminish the name of feminism further by not reclaiming it due to those splinters -- action from within as it were, and clearly challenging the opinions I disagree with in extreme interpretations. I worry the turning away actually also fuels those who don't subscribe to equality or understand what a patriarchy is and does to damage all genders.

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By *arciocialWoman
over a year ago

Leicester

" . "
most of the inequalities men see themselves facing have arisen due to a patriarchal society. They saw the woman as the child bearer and homemaker, they saw the woman as the nurturing one so took on those roles on jobs. While the system may seem unfair to men and custody rights, it is due to previous ways of thinking that have allowed it to be this way. Same for the inequalities that women face, only men's ones seem to be the ones that need less of a battle as you see men getting custody and in care related work, but yet for decades the equality in pay has been fought and only a small percentage has changed.

I believe men should have the same right as women, no one gender should be more superior than the other, but I don't believe that is something which will be achieved in my lifetime.

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East

"I think we can all agree that everybody should have equal opportunity in life, nobody I know including the hundreds of men I know have even remotely suggested anything different than that.

So let's assume we want to get there and aren't already there.

What law needs to change, what policy needs to be enacted, which laws and policies are sexist by nature or intent?

You've never met a man that thinks women footballers can't justify being paid as much as men?"

Bad example. Footballers are paid on a contract basis as i'm sure you are aware. The contracts are generally agreed based on marketability. Women's football currently is nowhere near as marketable as men's. This is the same for most sports. Not all but most.

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By *ampWithABrainWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow

Wow

Reason men don't need equality is they are already in a position of power.

There IS still a wage gap, women don't get higher paying jobs or promotions or indeed full time jobs as easily as men.

Progress has been made but there is still a LOT that needs to be improved.

On this thread alone a supposed feminist has victim blamed HW's victims. Not on.

Women are more likely to

Earn less

Experience sexual assault

Experience sexual harassment

Not be employed

Receive a custodial sentence for violent crime

Experience domestic abuse (not just violence bit emotional financial and sexual abuse too)

Experience discrimination when it comes to promotion or pay rises

Do the majority of housework and organisation in a traditional family setup

Be the victim of medical malpractice

Experience discrimination/assault/harassment in a medical setting.

Not be accepted for stem positions in education and employment

And that's just off the top of my head at gone midnight after a busy day.

So yes I am a feminist

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